amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-09-24 PORT ELIZABETH NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG 3919/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54795&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/2madaka.htm CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER We have no further evidence to present Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON We are proceeding now with the same hearing which is now the 24th of September. Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I call as the first witness Mr van Rensburg. ADV DE JAGER Your full names please. NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Mr van Rensburg, you have your amnesty application in front of you, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Do you affirm to page 1 of the application? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I do. MR BOOYENS Your history in the police as set out on page 2, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG It is correct. MR BOOYENS When this incident took place in 1982, you had the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS And were you officer commanding of the branch that dealt with trade unions inter alias? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS You give a personal overview of your personal history on page 2, do you attest to that? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I do confirm that. MR BOOYENS And the declaration that you did not do this for monetary gain, do you confirm that as well? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I do. MR BOOYENS You apply for the abduction and killing of Siphiwe Mthimkhulu and Topsi Madaka and making a false statement before the Harmse Commission in 1982, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I was aware of them. MR BOOYENS What did you know about them? MR VAN RENSBURG I took broad cognisance of certain activities of theirs. MR BOOYENS You state that approximately two weeks before 14 April 1982, you and the applicant Mr du Plessis had a conversation with the applicant Mr Erasmus, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS What did this concern? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Now if we can deal with these two quickly. We know that Mr Mthimkhulu was an overt figure, he acted openly, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS What was his main sphere of activity according to your own knowledge and how you were informed? MR VAN RENSBURG He was inter alias in the position at the COSAS student organisation and he also incited the youth, mobilised them and politicised them to indulge in schools boycotts and thus to bring the schools to a standstill in this area. MR BOOYENS There is a bit of history in this regard that Mr Mthimkhulu had previously been held in terms of Section 6 of the previous legislation regarding terrorism and that it is alleged that he had been poisoned, had been hospitalised in the Cape and returned here, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Now the allegations regarding his poisoning, were these allegations made prominent in the press? And if we look at some cuttings - examples of newspaper cuttings, questions were in Parliament, it had been stated that the police had already started an investigation and we also find detail regarding a civil suite for alleged assault. If we look at the cuttings, if you could just tell the Commission whether this is the type of press article which appeared at the time. MR VAN RENSBURG Mr Chairman, I have looked at the cuttings and they are of the kind of which I referred to, of which I had taken cognisance at the time. CHAIRPERSON What cuttings are we talking about? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Exhibit C I think was that bundle that Mr Visser handed in and of which we later got four - two pages. MR BOOYENS Very well. CHAIRPERSON So it will be D. MR BOOYENS The fact that Mr Mthimkhulu was allegedly poisoned by the security police, what did it do to his stature as a leader and his activities? MR VAN RENSBURG It enhanced his stature and it did not stop his activities at all as far as the organisational ability could continue, it actually helped him in this and in his agitation because more people, more youths now regarded him as a martyr. MR BOOYENS You stated he was regarded as a martyr, did the fact that he was allegedly poisoned by the police used by him to enhance his figure as a leader and to reflect on the activities of the police? Is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes it is. MR BOOYENS As far as Mr Madaka is concerned, what were his main activities according to your knowledge and according to what you were informed? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Did the two of them co-operate? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, they did. MR BOOYENS On page 4 then, you continue to deal with the Congress of South African Students and their role in the schools, the resistance against the apartheid education system, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm it? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I do, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Was there strong resistance against the so-called slave education? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is so. MR BOOYENS On page 5 you continue to deal with the fact that there were uprisings and school boycotts in the Eastern Cape, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS And then also the banning of certain Black movements. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS The founding of COSAS, you state was a direct consequence of the banning of other Black consciousness movements, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS How important was the role of the youth and the school pupils during those days? MR VAN RENSBURG They played a very important role because it mobilised the youth and it siphoned through to virtually every family because virtually every family had children. And the disturbance in the school was part of the process of making the country ungovernable and in this regard it played a very ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS You mean the country ungovernable? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I do and it played an important role. MR BOOYENS Was there politicisation of education? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, there was. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm the rest of the statements on page 5? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I do. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I do. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. that is correct. MR BOOYENS You sate at the top of page 7, second paragraph that "It was part of the ANC/SACP strategy to make Black townships ungovernable" Testimony has been led before this Commission about no-go areas etc., but let us return to the 1982 situation, what was the situation in the Eastern Cape at that stage? MR VAN RENSBURG It was a situation of large scale disturbances, particularly in the field of education and also as far as the normal movement inter alias of traffic in the Black areas - we were concerned because this was also disturbed. There were mass meetings, there was labour unrest, there were boycotts in the labour field, there were pamphlets inciting people to activities, that were distributed on a continuous basis. MR BOOYENS Were there also acts of terror at the time? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, there were at that stage. MR BOOYENS Were arms being smuggled in at that stage as well? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that was also taking place. MR BOOYENS What was the situation with regard to no-go areas already at that stage in Black townships? Did these exist in the Port Elizabeth area and the Eastern Cape? Were there no-go areas? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, there were. MR BOOYENS Did this basically involve that any percepted members of the apartheid regime like the police etc., be prevented from continuing from their normal activities? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, it is correct. MR BOOYENS That was the background, we are now on page 7 of your application. This was the background against which you and Mr van Rensburg discussed the activities of the two deceased? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, we did discuss it against this background. MR BOOYENS In these discussions of yours, was consideration given to the options that were open to you as far as the two deceased were concerned and limiting their activities, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Which options were discussed and considered? MR VAN RENSBURG Well, legal options aimed at punishment or at court actions or at keeping them without trial. MR BOOYENS Okay, let us look then at actually taking legal steps against them, was that considered? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Did you have information? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, we did have. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Was it for example from informants? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS So as far as testimony is concerned and witnesses, was this not adequate to institute legal steps against any of the two? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS The second option is the possible house arrest option which was used in certain cases, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS What was the problem in this regard? MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that could be done. CHAIRPERSON And you could prevent him from having visitors as was usually done? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that could have been done. CHAIRPERSON Very simple to supervise. MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Sorry Mr Chairman, are you finished? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Was it also during night time, was it impossible then or even dangerous to go and make these visits? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, very clearly dangerous to do it. MR BOOYENS The other possibly was detention in terms of Section 6, the Internal Terrorism Act of that time? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS What was wrong with that option, if any? MR VAN RENSBURG Well the fact that the person was of ill-health and this turned him into a martyr - you gave him status of a martyr and now to detain him again for a long period would actually increase his stature even more and would have resulted in more protests, more marches and other actions undertaken then by the youth and the community. MR BOOYENS If we then take into consideration that he was detained shortly beforehand for a short period - brief period and he was then set free, do you think you would have succeeded again by detaining him and would you have gained permission to do it again? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I doubt whether that would have been possible so shortly after his previous detention and also because he alleged poisoning. CHAIRPERSON When was he detained for a short period and released Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS He was detained from May until October Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And you call that a short period? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON But it was translated as a short period. ADV DE JAGER MR BOOYENS Maybe I speak a bit too fast Mr Chairman. That then was basically the criminal procedure actions that you had considered at the time, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Were these options also discussed with Mr Erasmus? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, they were discussed. MR BOOYENS He was the branch commander, is that correct - I mean the section commander, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Was there one meeting only or was there more that one meeting? MR VAN RENSBURG There was more than one meeting. MR BOOYENS Did it involve you, Mr du Plessis and Mr Erasmus, sometimes only you and Mr du Plessis, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, it is correct. MR BOOYENS Okay, I think we have dealt with pages 7 and 8. Do you confirm the correctness of the rest of your statement in your application there, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS On page 9, last paragraph, it is alleged that a certain point had been reached in the discussions, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS What was the nature of the information gained at that stage? MR VAN RENSBURG The nature of the information from various sources was that Mr Mthimkhulu had said that he would avenge himself on the security police and he indicated that attempts were being made to kill certain members of the South African police. MR BOOYENS Could we possibly here just identify the primary person involved with investigating Mr Mthimkhulu? MR VAN RENSBURG As far as I know, it was Mr Niewoudt. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm the rest of your statement on page 9? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I do. MR BOOYENS Because of the threat against the police or the threatening danger in which Black policemen found themselves, what was their reaction? MR VAN RENSBURG They were frightened, some of them were frightened and there was panic among them in general, particularly with regard to their own lives but also their families lives and safety. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Do you confirm this? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS You also then confirm that which is stated in page 10, second paragraph? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS After the order had been given, is it correct that you decided to involve Mr Niewoudt in planning and executing the murder? MR VAN RENSBURG Captain du Plessis decided that Mr Niewoudt had to be part of the plan. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS To take them away to an isolated place where they would not be easily traced, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS They would be killed? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS And their corpses would be burnt? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Was the decision also taken with regard to the motor vehicle and that is the vehicle of Mr Madaka, would be left close to the Lesotho border in order to create the impression that they had left the country? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS As far as the activities are concerned - just to summarise while we have reached this point, you have heard the testimony of General Erasmus what you had conveyed to him regarding the activities of both these people, do you confirm that as correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I do confirm that as correct. MR BOOYENS Let us now continue with the execution of the plan on page 11. On 14 April 1982, you planned to carry into effect the operation? On 14 April - in other words, the operation would start? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And were these two people abducted by Mr du Plessis and Mr Niewoudt - as far as you were informed, in Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Were you then informed by Captain du Plessis that they had indeed abducted these people that evening? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. CHAIRPERSON If there is not silence in the hall we will have the hall cleared, will you kindly remember that. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And were du Plessis Niewoudt and the two deceased then joined by you in Algoa Park? MR VAN RENSBURG Well I joined them yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Then near Cradock, there is a disused ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG It is a suburb Sir. MR BOOYENS Did you then go to a disused police station at Post Chalmers in the Cradock area? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG If I have to make a rough estimate, approximately 300 kilometres. MR BOOYENS And do you have to go through Post Chalmers to get to Cradock? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS There is - this may be an appropriate time to - I understand it is before you and it is in fact indicated on the left hand side of Cradock on the map before you. If I may ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS Yes. Post Chalmers was ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Could we perhaps refer to this as bundle E? MR BOOYENS Certainly Mr Chairman. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS As far as the rest is concerned, it was then a disused police station, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Was it upon certain occasions used by the security branch members as a safe house or for investigations etc., questioning people? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Is it a relatively sparsely populated area? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is true. MR BOOYENS There are no farm labourers or farm houses in the immediate environment area? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And was the plan to eliminate the two deceased there? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS You arrived there that evening, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS And it was quite late, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Were the two deceased then kept there that evening and into the following day? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS During the day and that evening, did you collect branches and tree trunks? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Did you and Warrant Officer Niewoudt after that, enter the house? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS Did you carry the two sleeping deceased outside? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Did you then shoot Siphiwe Mthimkhulu? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And the Warrant Officer for Topsi Madaka? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS What did you do with the corpses after this? MR VAN RENSBURG We placed them on the firewood, we first put down a layer of firewood and then we put the corpses on top of the firewood. MR BOOYENS Then you poured diesel over them, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Did you purchase this along the way? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Was the fire then lit with the purpose of burning the corpses? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Did it burn for approximately six hours as you state there? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, all of that is correct. MR BOOYENS The same evening the two deceased vehicle was left near a border post in Lesotho, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS On the 11th of June 1990, did you make a statement before the Harmse Commission? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS Was it a false statement? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, it was false. MR BOOYENS Why was the statement false? MR VAN RENSBURG To protect myself? MR BOOYENS You did not want to tell the truth? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS And was this a direct consequence of your actions of killing the two deceased? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS If we can now turn to the political background which led to the commission of this crime and formed the basis for your action. At this stage you had served in the security police for quite some time, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes for many years, yes. MR BOOYENS And were you aware of the eventual goal of the freedom organisations like the ANC, the SACP etc., what was their purpose? MR VAN RENSBURG It was to bring the Government at the time to a fall and to establish an ANC/SACP Government. MR BOOYENS In those days Mr P W Botha was President and did he use the phrase of a "total onslaught"? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Did you also - from the years that you were serving in the security branch, experience continuous propaganda in the press, on television, on the radio, coming from National Party politicians? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS If one had to summarise, what was the nature of the propaganda specifically as far as the freedom struggle was concerned? MR VAN RENSBURG That the freedom struggle had to be prevented at all costs, that all means had to be used to combat the "total onslaught" and to keep the Government ruling. MR BOOYENS So in other words, the perception of a total resistance against a "total onslaught"? MR VAN RENSBURG Exactly. MR BOOYENS That is what the politicians said from public platforms? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS This is also what we read in the press at the time? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS And as far as you yourselves were concerned - information that was passed on to you from security head office, police head office etc., was this the same message? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Did you also have insight into banned publications which had been confiscated from these movements? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Did that also set out how to topple the Government? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS So did you believe or was there any doubt in your mind that the SACP/ANC alliance had anything else in mind than to take over the Government of the country? MR VAN RENSBURG No, there was nothing else. MR BOOYENS In other words, did you from that which you yourself experienced and saw, believe this propaganda? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Let us then return to your position as a security policeman. Before you came to Port Elizabeth, were you stationed in the Eastern Transvaal? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And there, there were inter alia allegations that Swaziland had been used as an infiltration route? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, definitely. MR BOOYENS What kind of instructions were you receiving at that stage as to your actions? MR VAN RENSBURG We had to establish an information network in Swaziland to try and monitor these people and to gain information regarding when these trained people would enter the country. MR BOOYENS And did you also - as far as these so-called safe houses in Swaziland were concerned, did you also have to gain information in this regard? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, we had to, we had to take photographs where possible of these safe houses. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS What was the nature of the pressure which even at that stage - this was long before you came to the Eastern Cape, was exercised on you as a security police person from the top, from police headquarters and from your regional command etc? MR VAN RENSBURG Well the pressure that was exerted was for results, drastic actions, more concentrated actions. MR BOOYENS We are still referring to the Eastern Transvaal situation, was there - from the side of the people in Pretoria and politicians etc., were they satisfied or were they demanding better results? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Okay, then you were transferred to the Eastern Cape, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS In the Eastern Cape, how would you summarise the situation politically when you came here? MR VAN RENSBURG I would describe the situation - I would almost say, as chaotic, unstable. MR BOOYENS You were at the time the second in command of the section, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And because of the rank that you had, you only supervised the situation? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Did you have insight to correspondence from headquarters? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I had. MR BOOYENS Did you have insight into the security actions that were taken locally? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I did. MR BOOYENS Were there regular conferences that were held? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Where an overview was given of the situation and steps discussed? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS What was the type of insistence that was coming from Government side and that was passed on to you, what did they want? MR VAN RENSBURG That the situation in the Eastern Cape had to be stabilised and normalised. MR BOOYENS Did you also have an involvement upon occasions in sittings of ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think we will take a short adjournment so you can see to this lady. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Carry on. EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS (cont) Mr Chairman, the witness seems to have taken his papers to the back, may he just go and fetch it? May I just tender our apologies to the Commission Mr Chairman. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS This Security Management System was adequately described by him, did you attend some of these committee meetings? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I did. MR BOOYENS These were meetings of the so-called - of the five sub-committees, the so-called Security Committee, the Joint Security Centre and that kind of meeting, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Do you agree with the description that the whole purpose of these organisations was to establish a total security control system throughout the country? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS It was chaired by the defence force, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS We have already heard reference being made to elimination of people etc., was that a term that was used at some of the sub-committees or in mutual discussions etc? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS How do you personally understand the statement if I say that: "A person has to be eliminated"? MR VAN RENSBURG To me it means that a person must be killed. MR BOOYENS If it should mean that a person should be locked up, then it would mean he had to be arrested? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS And can you remember that possibly on certain occasions in documentation, reference was made to - and I refer specifically to this Security Management System meetings, reference was made to elimination of people etc? MR VAN RENSBURG I can remember that, yes. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS During the consultations, did I show you Minutes of a meeting of the Safety Committee that was held in October 1982? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes you did. MR BOOYENS Exhibit F Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON This will be F. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS "Economic Upliftment Action"? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Does it not also refer to the "Psychological and Social" etc., in paragraph 6? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Then reference is made to "Intimidation being a priority"? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Is that the type of vocabulary that would be freely used during those days and which you would hear? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS If we then return and against this background, look at a situation where you and Mr du Plessis would go to your commander - commanding officer and the elimination of two people would be discussed - the two deceased in this case. MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS Was there a feeling at all at that stage that something like this will be totally contrary to and outside the broad security and safety policy that applied at the time? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR BOOYENS If you were at all under the impression that it could have been totally unacceptable, would you at all have considered anything like this or discussed it with your commanding officer? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS In other words, in the passing through of this policy you never saw a document in which a direct order was given by the Government or the police that a direct order was given that people had to be eliminated? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR BOOYENS But what was the spirit and the attitude that you read in these broad information messages that came through to you? What was the general tenor of these messages regarding the elimination of people? MR VAN RENSBURG That it was justified under certain circumstances and that the details were in the hands of the people on ground level, they had to use their own initiative in this regard. MR BOOYENS Mr Erasmus mentioned the example of having the impression that where these allegations were made etc., that these allegations were not investigated with the same degree of enthusiasm, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS As far as Mr Madaka and Mthimkhulu are concerned, you also had insight into the applications by the other applicants particularly du Plessis and Niewoudt, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm there that the information contained in those applications regarding the activities of the two deceased was the information that you had available when you participated in considering whether to eliminate the two deceased or not? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Were you satisfied that the two deceased were a case that for security interests justified the elimination? MR VAN RENSBURG I believed that. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG According to my information they were two large gears - cogs in the revolutionary struggle locally in order to make the area ungovernable and that by eliminating them we would possibly be able to succeed in stabilising the area and in preventing this revolutionary onslaught from continuing locally. And it could also have contributed to the broader situation in the country. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Not in my opinion. MR BOOYENS As far as the situation is concerned with regard to people who within the freedom struggle from the side of the police and the defence force, if we were to look at them were you aware that information was exchanged with people from SPES forces, Special Forces of the Defence Force upon occasion? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS With other members of the branch? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS You were not personally present but were aware that contact had been made? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS In your opinion, did the politicians of the day - if not directly then by keeping silent or by implication, condone this type of action under the circumstances? MR VAN RENSBURG That is what I believed. MR BOOYENS Do you further confirm the other particulars set out in paragraph 10(a)? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS And although at a later stage it could have become relevant, did you have any knowledge of assistance being given to the defence force as far as information is concerned - also with regard to foreign areas, areas outside our country which formed part of the onslaught against South Africa? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS But did you hear from colleagues about it? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Then in paragraph 10(b) you refer to what you regarded as your task, in other words resisting the onslaught. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS And you also state that violence had to be combated with violence or you fight fire with fire as it is stated in English, where did this attitude originate? MR VAN RENSBURG As far as I can remember, it came from the side of politicians and also from police headquarters. MR BOOYENS Was this the way in which matters were regarded to be done? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Did the perception exist - particularly with regard to the no-go areas, that normal policing was possible in these areas - you know the normal police officer in uniform investigating a house break-in? MR VAN RENSBURG No, it was impossible. MR BOOYENS One could not drive in a police vehicle into that area any longer? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS And as you saw it, was this already an advanced stage of the total making ungovernable of the country and the eventual substitution replacement of the Government? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS And besides your task as police officer - this is just for the sake of detail, did you also regard it as your task as a member and supporter of the National Party, to be your duty? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS And did you also believe that this policy was essential for what your perception was at the time of the continuation of order and of your own continued existence in this country? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS Now if we can deal with a few other aspects. You referred to the statement of Mr Niewoudt and you have already referred to the press cuttings, but were you also aware of the fact that a police investigation had been made into the alleged poisoning of Mr Mthimkhulu and was ongoing at the time? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS I refer to page 86 of bundle A Mr Chair. Were you aware that as early as 28 December 1981, he had been confronted with allegations that the deceased had been poisoned - I refer to page 86, top paragraph: "At any stage inter alias had thallium poison given to him" So reference was made to the fact that the civil order in which the Minister was addressed just before this event occurred and which had been served on you, did you yourself have knowledge of this civil procedure served n you? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS And did this at all influence your decision to kill the two people? MR VAN RENSBURG No, not at all. MR BOOYENS A reference had also been made ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Was this the summons about the poisoning your talking about, not the assault - there were two summons issued? MR BOOYENS Yes, I will deal with that briefly. There was also an earlier summons I think on the 22nd - I think it was in December, for assault in which an amount of R40.000-00 was claimed, were you aware of this? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS That was a much earlier summons? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG No, not at all. MR BOOYENS You did not apply for the alleged poisoning for amnesty, did you? MR VAN RENSBURG No, that is correct. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS Was it explained to you that you could apply for amnesty in this regard? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Did you take an informed decision not to apply in this regard? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Why not? MR VAN RENSBURG Because I did not have any part in it. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS Reference has been made to a former security policemen Dirk Coetzee - now generally spoken, Dirk Coetzee made many allegations against you? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS In as far as the allegations of Coetzee are concerned - if they are true, have you applied for amnesty in that regard? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS In these and other applications? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Your application for amnesty was sent off by your attorney on 13 December, that is approximately two days before the initial cut-off date for applications of this nature, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Will you please inform the Commission why you applied for amnesty? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS In other words you say that you have two reasons for your application firstly, the opportunity had been created and secondly, you are sorry about what you had done. It was also true that your application was not immediately filed when the opportunity was given. Could you please explain to the Commission because I think it is something that may be asked to you, why it was done in this way. MR VAN RENSBURG At that stage when the Amnesty Commission was first mentioned and that people could apply for amnesty, there was amongst the ranks of the police - of people who could have been involved, a degree of uncertainty regarding the system and there was also some suspicion regarding the Amnesty Committee. There were fears that we would not receive a fair trial. MR BOOYENS That was the first consideration? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that was the first consideration. MR BOOYENS When it later became apparent that the Amnesty Committee consisted of Judges etc., there was still quite intensive discussions regarding this among police? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Was it then also recommended from a former Commissioner of Police, General van der Merwe, that those who were guilty of offences had to apply for amnesty? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS After you had decided to apply for amnesty with regard to this, this was the stage when you decided? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Then you had to get legal counsel? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS There were financial implications regarding your application? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Is that a matter - that the financial problems had been resolved, is that one of the reasons why your application was only filed later? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS Does that explain - well I take it that you went, saw your attorney and that you started with the application, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS You also referred to the fact that there was a degree of distrust among the ranks of the security police regarding the whole amnesty process. You also participated in an application which went to the Appeal Court with Mr Jan du Preez and on that occasion, did you make a sworn statement with regard to your application to Mr Wagner, the instructing attorney to Mr Visser in this matter? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS You also did not state the truth in that statement? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Why not? MR VAN RENSBURG It was to protect my interests. MR BOOYENS Perhaps you should give more clarity in this regard. At that stage you had applied for amnesty? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BOOYENS The application had been addressed because you felt that you had to be given the opportunity - I think it was at the Human Rights Committee, to state your side of the matter, is that correct? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, we wished to have more time. The notices had to give us more time to prepare ourselves for appearing and we wanted more facts. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS You have already referred to the fact that at present you are sorry about what happened. At the time when you committed these crimes, what was your primary consideration for doing so? MR VAN RENSBURG The primary consideration was to protect State security. MR BOOYENS Was there any other reason for committing these deeds? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR BOOYENS Is there anything else that you would like to add here? MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG (s.u.o.) MR BOOYENS That concludes the evidence-in-chief Mr Chairman. I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I indicated that that concludes my evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, have you any questions? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I have no questions thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Phosa? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PHOSA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr van Rensburg, are you commonly known as Nick amongst your colleagues? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Just for the last time on that aspect, the aspects that he raised or he mentioned against you, the ones that you deny and cannot now remember, are they serious allegations involving the killing of people, the assault of people? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA And the Kondile case, have you applied for amnesty? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Just to start on that point then, so you killed - with others, you killed Kondile? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA I would assume for the same reasons as you killed these two young people, Mthimkhulu and Madaka? MR VAN RENSBURG No, it was not for the same reasons, the circumstances were not the same. MR PHOSA Well now, I was trying to shorten it. The background surely, the details about what each of them did - what Kondile did, was Kondile killed for something unrelated to political activity? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, it did concern political objectives. MR PHOSA You killed him also in endeavour to be of assistance to the then Government in power? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I agree with that. MR PHOSA So I was saying then in that context, the underlying reason for eliminating Kondile is exactly the same as for eliminating these two. MR VAN RENSBURG If you state it like that, yes. If I understand it the way you state it, that is correct. Yes, if it was for the purpose of protecting the Government or to maintain the Government, keep them in power yes, I agree with you in both cases. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA So you I would take it like Mr Erasmus, were bothered about what you had done after you killed Mr Kondile - you were worried about it? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, it something that does concern one. MR PHOSA You say it rather hesitantly - I really want to find out ...[intervention] MR VAN RENSBURG Yes ...[intervention] MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I was. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA No, well correct yourself and give us the answer then. MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No, not at all. MR PHOSA Can I ask you for the third time, who killed Mr Kondile? MR VAN RENSBURG A person by the name Otto, Roy Otto. MR PHOSA Only Otto? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I was there as well, Dirk Coetzee was also there, Mr du Plessis was also there. MR PHOSA Is the fact of your reply to say: "Otto did the physical killing but we were accomplices, in other words we were joint in this killing"? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG It was myself, Mr Erasmus, Mr du Plessis. MR PHOSA I take it you discussed the necessity of killing Mr Kondile, the need for it? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR PHOSA Was it also over a number of days - discussing that idea? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA Was there someone senior to you that you could have spoken to in this division if you had wanted to - about that killing? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, Mr Erasmus was present and he was my senior. MR PHOSA Just to jump to the Mthimkhulu/Madaka situation, did you approach Mr Erasmus for his permission before killing those two? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, it was joint discussions where a decision was taken about what we had to do and in the end it was a joint decision. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA Were you listening attentively as he gave his story - his account yesterday and the day before? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I listened. MR PHOSA Now please correct me and the others will correct me, my understanding of the jest of his evidence was that he was approached at a stage when you and the others had already felt that it is necessary to eliminate these two, so you went to him to seek his permission, now is that wrong? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA You are giving a long story, just listen carefully to the jest of my question. Did you and the other one or others, approach Mr Erasmus for his permission? Did you or did you not? MR VAN RENSBURG Mr du Plessis and I did approach him - Mr Erasmus. MR PHOSA But in the case of Mr Kondile - now listen carefully - Mr Kondile, you did not go to look for permission, seek permission from Mr Erasmus? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, we had, we had. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA And you similarly got his permission before you killed these last two - the other two? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA Just in passing though - were there others even if they were not eliminated, who were being considered for elimination in this area? MR VAN RENSBURG Are you referring - to which period are you referring now? Are you talking about 1982, during that period or after that period or what do you want to know about? MR PHOSA Let me give you free reign and just talk as you please. As long as you were involved, any who were also considered for elimination? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I am aware of those. MR PHOSA In this area? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Before I find out who they are, did you - do you know also of others when you were elsewhere - stationed elsewhere, who were even there considered for elimination for the same reasons? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I do understand you. No, not where I was present. MR PHOSA And were the ones - the situation that you referred to now that you said: "There were others who were also considered for elimination in this area", who are those? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Sorry Mr Chairman, can I just have a short while? Are you saying that you were involved in the discussion to eliminate Goniwe and others? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Up to now, have you considered this? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Have you admitted this? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I have applied for amnesty for those cases. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Four, yes. MR PHOSA Now are there others that you have admitted having been involved in their elimination or the planning of their elimination? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, okay. We refer to the Motherwell case. MR PHOSA How many people there? MR VAN RENSBURG Four. MR PHOSA Including some policemen? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Members of the security police? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Who were working very closely with you and your friends on the face of it? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Who trusted you as their superior? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I assume so. MR PHOSA Who had been doing terrible things on your instructions and others before that? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I have been given to understand that, you are correct. MR PHOSA Yes, who else? Who were the others? MR VAN RENSBURG The other case which I referred to is a case in Swaziland. MR PHOSA Who died there? MR VAN RENSBURG There were two men and a child who were killed there. MR PHOSA Just mention when you have given the list, then I can continue. MR VAN RENSBURG Please repeat the question. MR PHOSA When you have given the whole list please mention, then I can proceed to the next question. MR VAN RENSBURG I have given you the whole list as far as I know. MR PHOSA Right, in sequence then - and we now know or I also know now that the Kondile matter came before the present one, before the Mthimkhulu and Madaka matter. Where in this whole scenario did the others fit in? Just give us the order, I want to know what you did after Mthimkhulu for instance. MR VAN RENSBURG After Mthimkhulu, was Goniwe. MR PHOSA Yes, and then? MR VAN RENSBURG And then the Motherwell 4 - no, the Swaziland case was I think in 1979, before the Goniwe case. MR PHOSA I see. So by the time that you - sorry, so as to help me van Rensburg, when you are through just switch off your machine as well because I sometimes think you are still going on. MR VAN RENSBURG Okay. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I was concerned. ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Were you at any stage the head of the CI Vlakplaas farm - the Vlakplaas? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I was, they were part of that of which I was head. I had more than one component of which I was head, and one of the components was Vlakplaas. MR PHOSA Were you per chance given the task of dealing with the elimination aspect - you were heading that aspect? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR BOOYENS ADV DE JAGER I beg your pardon, could I just determine from the interpreters on which channel the questions are being translated into Afrikaans. INTERPRETER ADV DE JAGER I can hear you and I can hear the answer but I can never hear the questions being translated. MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, Mr van Rensburg is using channel 4 which is basically the channel that he hears the question in English. ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA MR BOOYENS MR PHOSA But is that a problem? So we can go ahead then? MR BOOYENS Yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Is that an accepted - a correct interpretation? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No, at that stage I was not given those tasks except for the Motherwell case. MR PHOSA Were you - did you just happen to be at Vlakplaas and it also happened to be a place that eliminates, just a coincidence? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA You were above him? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA So what we now know as being the image of Vlakplaas, was known to you at the time that you were at head office and Mr de Kock was at Vlakplaas? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. CHAIRPERSON When was this? MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON What is the relevance of this Mr Phosa, to something that happened in 1982? MR PHOSA Anyway getting back to the situation of Kondile, who was the first, first person to mention to you that you should now eliminate these two persons, eliminate Mthimkhulu and Madaka? Who was the first to mention it to you? Or did you mention it to them? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Without giving dates, was it much earlier than the 14th of May 1982 when you mentioned that, much earlier - April rather, 14th of April? MR VAN RENSBURG I think it was about two weeks or no, ...[intervention] MR PHOSA Before that? MR VAN RENSBURG It was about four days or a week before they were eliminated, if I have to make a guess. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA How often were these meetings coming about, in other words the meetings where you were discussing covertly these problems? Were they at intervals of say a month or more or a year? MR BOOYENS MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG I do not know to which meetings you are referring to. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG I did not attend such meetings where politicians were present. MR PHOSA And you are not aware of such meetings? MR VAN RENSBURG I am aware of the fact that during my period in Port Elizabeth there were a few meetings where politicians were present, I myself however was not present at these meetings. MR PHOSA Did you as a branch, make representations at those meetings that you were aware of where you personally were not present? MR VAN RENSBURG No, not where politicians were present, I was not attending such meetings. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Mr Phosa, could I just clear up something here? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. ADV DE JAGER Were you not present at any meeting where the Minister of Police visited Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG I can remember one meeting which was held at police headquarters where Mr le Grange was present and where we just gave him a brief security overview of conditions in the Eastern Cape. There were no other discussions that I can remember. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, you are correct. MR PHOSA So as at the time that you were arranging - perhaps agreeing on the elimination of Mthimkhulu and Madaka, you personally had no knowledge of what the attitude of the politicians would be to that? CHAIRPERSON Mr Phosa, he said in his evidence in chief that the influence of the politicians was from what they said on public platforms. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON That is the trouble, it is a slightly slant from what he in fact said in chief. Put it though. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG It was my own deductions as a consequence of public statements by politicians. MR PHOSA The visit you are referring to by Mr le Grange the Minister - in relation to this incident, when was it - before or after? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Right. Now you, I take it like Mr Erasmus, at no stage spoke to any politician whether at a meeting or outside, about the eliminations? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I believed that if I had to approach them directly, that would probably have been the answer. In my view no political person would directly give such an instruction. MR PHOSA And who was your - at head office, who was the Commissioner of Police at the time of the killing of these two? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Now, had you ever discussed with whoever the General was - who the Commissioner was then, had you ever discussed this concept of elimination? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Had you ever heard him make reference to elimination? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA So you did not know the attitude of senior policemen in this regard? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I did not know what their attitude was but the pressure that was consistently exerted from above left certain perceptions with me. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, but that is exactly what we had said to each other before this incident. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG I would assume so. MR PHOSA You understood so then? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA And this was being mentioned quite openly by them to you? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA Okay, it was being mentioned publicly and you picked it up - just mentioned publicly that elimination is one of the solutions? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Any knowledge to whether senior police officers were against elimination? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that we had to take drastic steps, actions. MR PHOSA Now who said that? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA This was before the death of these two gentlemen? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA Therefore from what you have just said, you understood that they were suggesting that you should eliminate them? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA ...[inaudible] my question then. Since you understood that they were - the police now, were suggesting that you should eliminate these people, what was the difficulty in saying to them: "Look, we also have come to the conclusion and it appears to us that the only answer is to eliminate", would that have been a problem to say that to them? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Are you saying that not a single one of your senior police officers could be trusted to keep this a secret and yet give an indication you should go ahead? MR VAN RENSBURG I did not say that, but you are not involved in this kind of activity and then go unnecessarily and tell everybody on ground level what you busy doing and the execution of a plan like that or planning something like that even. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG That is because Mr Erasmus was my immediate head of this section locally and therefore I regarded it as something that had to be discussed with him. MR PHOSA Can I put it this way, it was not impossible to eliminate the other two if you had wanted to - those two persons, Mthimkhulu and Madaka, you could have eliminated them without telling Mr Erasmus - physically it was possible? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I could have done so. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA It seems to me that you arrived - you yourself, arrived at the conclusion that it was the correct thing to do, in other words to eliminate. That decision you arrived at independently of Mr Erasmus. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I had. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG ADV SANDI Was there a risk in not telling Mr Erasmus? And what was that risk if any? MR VAN RENSBURG No, if I went and did something that Mr Erasmus was not aware of and he is my immediate head and he would hear about it afterwards that I had done something like this without his knowledge or yes, without his knowing, he could have been affronted by this and he could have said to me: "The fact that you did not entrust me with this knowledge could create problems for us". MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA You are talking about a possibility now? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA The possibility - you must have known that the possibility that what you and others including Mr Erasmus did - that of eliminating people, existed, it existed that others might know. You could always not exclude the possibility of someone else someday discovering that, could you? MR VAN RENSBURG No, but what I mean is we could have encountered problems along the way, the operation could have failed - the kidnapping, these were all possibilities and they were risks. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA They were just going to be taken as they were taken in fact? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA They were even taken to the - they were even sent to this outside farm on the pretext that they were going to be interrogated. MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No, not at that stage. MR PHOSA And what was your attitude - what was you knowledge, did you know him to be in favour of eliminations? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, in the sense that we had - how would one say, discussed this matter of the message that had siphoned through from the top - statement that had been made etc., and the pressure from above. MR PHOSA You are referring to your having discussed - before you actually decided to kill these, your having discussed the message from the top - you and him? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, we discussed with each other the fact that this was clearly the message that was passed on from above. MR PHOSA When was this? MR VAN RENSBURG That was shortly after I had arrived here, the beginning of 1981. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA But ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA I apologise, I should have been warned by the witness. MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA But then after the Kondile matter - sorry, what was the date of the Kondile matter? MR VAN RENSBURG I speak under correction but I think it was in August 1981. MR PHOSA From that date on, you did not discuss further until about a week before the elimination of these two - sorry, discussing elimination? MR VAN RENSBURG No, not regarding specific cases that certain persons by name had to be eliminated but we possibly in general discussion among ourselves had discussed this, that this was something that in future might arise again as a consequence of the developments in the security situation in the country in general. MR PHOSA You are saying this is what you possibly discussed after the Kondile matter? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA Now before - after the Kondile matter but before the seven days or so, you have no specific recollection of your discussing these two gentlemen from a point of view of elimination? MR VAN RENSBURG Not with Mr Erasmus. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Sorry, I - my question should have included that I meant, you knew insofar as he was convinced that elimination is the solution, he would not object. MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA When you say in the cases that you had approached him he had given permission, are you referring to these two - these two only? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA So if therefore on the basis of need to know, you and the other two juniors had decided to get rid of these two? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR BOOYENS MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Had you ever discussed elimination as a concept with Mr Niewoudt? MR VAN RENSBURG Never, in fact never because the message was conveyed to him by Mr du Plessis. MR PHOSA When did you mention for the first time to Mr Niewoudt, the concept of eliminating - of elimination? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I did not mention this concept of elimination personally to him. MR PHOSA Did you - you personally and Mr Niewoudt, ever speak about what was going to be done before it was done - regarding these two? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA When? MR VAN RENSBURG Maybe a day or two before they were abducted. MR PHOSA Were you telling him or were you finding out from him if he knew? MR VAN RENSBURG No, he knew, he was already informed by Mr du Plessis. MR PHOSA Yes but as between you and him, you and Mr Niewoudt a day or two before the incident, what were you talking about regarding the incident - the elimination? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No, not personally, I did not personally know that. MR PHOSA Did you say to Mr du Plessis: "Man this is a risky affair, now why do you include a junior, is he safe"? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Implied in your suggestion to him as you put it was: "You know best whom to trust, so please get someone that can be trusted not to let us down" MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG This is what I have believed. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON I see no point in the question. If you can tell me what the reason is? MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON No, carry on with the next question. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA You could have trapped them into the belief that they were going to be interrogated? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA You could equally have got them to where they were taken to ultimately, in the same pretext like they were going to be interrogated? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA And since they were killed that easily by being put to sleep, you could have done that - the two of you? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, if you allow me, I just need to put it to you - there was another vehicle involved, their vehicle and that vehicle also had to accompany us. MR PHOSA So was the real reason for a third person, this vehicle? MR VAN RENSBURG That was one of the reasons, yes. MR PHOSA Well then what was the other reason, what was the other reasons for him coming in besides the vehicle? MR VAN RENSBURG Chairman, I cannot give you the exact reason but one reasons was that I felt that du Plessis and myself were too few people, that we need assistance from a third person to execute the task - that was my decision. As already indicated there was this extra vehicle that had to be taken so we should have - we were supposed to take it somewhere else, we could not have left it in the street it had to go with us, that was part of our planning. I felt that we needed another help. MR PHOSA By the way, you personally did the shooting? MR VAN RENSBURG The one. MR PHOSA Yes. And whose decision was that - as to who was going to do the shooting? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA We now know that Mr du Plessis shot the other person. MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA Mr Niewoudt. MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Was he instructed or did he just take it over? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA I want to spend as little detail on this aspect as I must, I would personally not go into it but I have to. Just one more on that - who - did you all, did you both use the same firearm? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA And were those official firearms that you used? MR VAN RENSBURG I used my service pistol. MR PHOSA Yes but you should know, did he use a service pistol as well? MR VAN RENSBURG I am not sure, I take it for granted. MR PHOSA Was your firearm registered as being your - for your official use? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA And if his was also official, it would have been similarly registered? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA What happened to those firearms? MR VAN RENSBURG I still have mine. MR PHOSA The very same one? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA That maybe explains what you said earlier on about investigation. Are you - was there any investigation done of whatever nature by the police to find out what happened to these two? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. Yes, there was one. MR PHOSA Was it done by policemen or by a police branch - or whatever you call it, independent of the security police? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG As far as humanly possible, yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG As far as I know, yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG I do not think they could have actually achieved anything, I doubt it. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No, I do not know what they could have done except for their normal police investigation. If there were allegations, then they should have investigated it. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG I do not know. MR PHOSA MR BOOYENS With respect, I think the evidence was more in context that it was a general attitude Mr Chairman, not specifically referring to the investigation of this case. I think my learned friend might have misunderstood. CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG (s.u.o.) MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Mr Chairman, if I remember correctly - I was interrupted, could you please repeat what you had asked? MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR VISSER MR PHOSA Thank you for the explanation though. MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I am aware. MR PHOSA Now, is it correct that in that situation, again the car was left at the border? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, it is correct. MR PHOSA Now, did that come before or after this case - this Madaka case and Mthimkhulu? Which came first, the Mxenge case or the Mthimkhulu one? MR BOOYENS MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON November 1981. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA And Mr Madaka? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA Were you aware that Mr Mthimkhulu was interrogated at the offices of the security police in Port Elizabeth? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Was a report given to you or reports given to you? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA Did you at any stage indicate to anyone that you were the second in command - before today? MR VAN RENSBURG No never, not at that stage, not in that year. MR PHOSA Or were you perhaps second in command at a later stage? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes indeed, at a later stage. MR PHOSA Were you at any stage actually number one in command? MR VAN RENSBURG In the Eastern Cape? MR PHOSA Yes. MR VAN RENSBURG No, never. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Would your rank in seniority perhaps could have - could no rank have caused that confusion? The fact that you were senior, were you perhaps the second in seniority? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I was third in seniority. MR PHOSA Right. Now, did you get to know whether Mr Mthimkhulu during detention and interrogation, was responding positively or negatively or just being difficult? MR VAN RENSBURG Sometimes he would have come and discussed things with me regarding things he needed advice on or an opinion on, just a second opinion. Those are the things he would come and approach me with and possible to Colonel Erasmus afterwards, that was the day to day conventions. MR PHOSA I get the impression now that you are referring to general practice and you are not talking about Mthimkhulu specifically now? MR VAN RENSBURG I can tell you that as far as Mthimkhulu is concerned, in his interrogation I had no involvement whatsoever. In passing perhaps, I think Mr du Plessis on one or two occasions mentioned to me that they were not really progressing with the interrogation and that they were not obtaining the information they were requiring. MR PHOSA So that you really would not know in what manner the interrogation went - was carried out? MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA Do you know Mr Lulama Fizele Owen Bangani? No, no sorry, my apologies, do you know Mr Bobelo? MR VAN RENSBURG If you refer to the ex-policeman, yes I know him. MR PHOSA Would he have been entitled to take part in interrogation when Mr Mthimkhulu was being interrogated? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG If he was part of the team that had been appointed to interrogate the person, yes. If he was not part of the interrogating team, he was not supposed to participate in interrogations. MR PHOSA Before my mentioning it here at the hearing yesterday, had you learnt of the fact that Mr Bobelo had made some statement about how Mr Mthimkhulu was interrogated? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Did you see it before yesterday? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Just shown to you but you were not discussing it as such? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA So, you were not indifferent to the allegation, in other words you also took notice of it and felt it was a serious allegation? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA You have heard what was put to Mr Erasmus yesterday about that allegation together also with the allegation of assaults - I mean general improper conduct when he was interrogated, you heard that aspect being put to Mr Erasmus yesterday? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Do you also subscribe to the view that whatever the reason is, the discussion and the conclusion or decision to eliminate Mr Mthimkhulu and the other gentlemen - but mostly Mr Mthimkhulu now, does tend to be very close to the stage of the civil action? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, the summons to which reference had been made and the date on which the two gentlemen disappeared are close, and that was what was said yesterday if I remember correctly. I do agree that these two dates are closely spaced. MR PHOSA And by the time that you as well took part in the decision to eliminate Mr Mthimkhulu, you were already aware of the civil action? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA But I suppose your answer will be: "Look, it just so happens that they are close to each other, our decision had absolutely nothing to do with the threat of the consequences of a civil action"? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA But of course you also do concede that even without a successful action against you, the mere process of proceedings of that nature would have a negative effect on the image of the police - security police? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, it would reflect in that manner. MR PHOSA But it would be worse so if indeed there was a finding in his favour, namely that he had been poisoned? MR VAN RENSBURG I have unfortunately not followed your question clearly. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. I would just like to add that that which you referred to now, the opinion - public opinion or the point of view, already existed. Speculations to this effect had already appeared in the newspapers and it was suggested that the security police had been responsible for this. I think more or less from December that sort of allegation had been made. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA And I say then if you then, not you - whoever was accused was found in fact to have done it, that surely would have been worse than the position before that? MR VAN RENSBURG Entirely correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Sorry, sorry, a person found to have done that act would have lost his job? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I believe that. Yes, I believe that is what would have happened. MR PHOSA There would have been financial repercussions? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA And the branch - even those who were not involved, would have had a stigma? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is so. MR PHOSA Surely you could not afford another stigma of that nature? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Regarding the alleged activities of Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka, you were relying it seems primarily on the evidence of informers? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR PHOSA I mean the police. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Obviously you were not prepared even today, even in that mood in which you are now, a confessing mood and a apologetic mood - you would never produce those informers statements and their identity, would you? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG You are correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON Do I understand from that that you had no original information about them, that the information you got was what Mr du Plessis filtered through to you? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA On the question of the possible legal steps - just to conclude that, it appears that because you could not use informers and also because there was no admission or confession from Mr Mthimkhulu for instance, nothing could be done in court? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct, this is how I understood it from Mr du Plessis. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA There were informers in the township though? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. MR PHOSA Many. They are the ones who came and gave reports to you? MR VAN RENSBURG Also correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, there cases like that. MR PHOSA Also you were having telephones tapped? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I took note of that. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that was possible but I say on ground level that was not possible to actually manage it on a 24 hour basis, it was virtually impossible in terms of our manpower availability. May I also add, it was not the only reason that we have absconded the possibility of restricting people, there were other developments. What happened - if you now restrict a person like that then you will have boycotts the next day, school boycotts, consumer boycotts and so forth. You will then have pressure to stop such restrictions, so it was contra-productive in many of the cases especially if you consider the stature of the person, the influence he had and the organisation he belonged to. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No, not if they were accompanied by the heavy vehicles like Casspirs and so on that we were making use of in that time, not in all cases but in certain areas that was the situation. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Within those given circumstances and times yes, you could not have enough people on the ground because of the unrest. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, surely it have helped, it would have helped in the unrest situation to perhaps have more visibility on the ground so more police would have helped especially to act against the burning of vehicles, the burning of deliver vehicles, damaging of schools yes, more people would have helped - we could not stop everywhere. ADV DE JAGER So it seems that is the problem throughout the police because we have the same problem today apparently. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is so. MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER Could I repeat it? MR PHOSA If you can remember the answer can you just give us? MR VAN RENSBURG I said there was not enough police and vehicles to cover the entire area, to cover for instance arsoning of schools, the burning of delivery vehicles. I can remember for instance a period where a delivery vehicle could not enter New Brighton without police presence, those delivery vehicles then had to wait until the police would come and fetch them and accompany them. Yes, there were not enough police in that time under those circumstances to get the place to normal conditions. MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR VAN RENSBURG I did say yes, you are correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG I understand that. MR PHOSA Now, for instance with regard to other methods, there was a way of - a practice also of asking people to report daily at the police station at given hours, that also could be done - it was done sometimes. MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Now detention without trial - I may have got your evidence inaccurately, you seemed to be saying because of the allegation that Mr Mthimkhulu had been poisoned, he had acquired the status of a martyr. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I did say that. MR PHOSA So that if you detained him with that kind of allegation existing against the security police already, that would have been a further ground for greater violent action or activity in the area. MR VAN RENSBURG That is what we expected should happen. MR PHOSA Are you suggesting to the Court - to the Chairperson and to the others that you as security police would actually refrain from detaining anybody you felt like detaining because of the attitude of the people where he belongs? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA If the reaction of the community to his further detention was a factor at all, then how was it a factor? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG These were all the things that one should have considered before making decisions and also you should remember that you have detained a person, let the person go and now you come again and you come and detain the person once more, then you should decide are you solving the problem or are you instigating the problem. MR PHOSA But just to pick up on the latter portion of your reply - surely you yourself are aware of numerous instances where some people were in and out of detention as though it was a shop - they were just taken in, out again, back again - it was being done. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, it was done in some cases. MR PHOSA Now, I understand that the underlying understanding or impression amongst the security police including yourself - including you, was that both Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka were actually ANC people - members. MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA That they were in touch with the ANC outside, which was then outside the country? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG That is possible. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA The ANC would sooner or later discovered that they were not there. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Then it makes it ridiculous to say that you would successfully give the impression they were away? MR VAN RENSBURG I did not say how successful it would be, I just said that is the impression we attempted to create. We might as well argue that if the ANC says they are not there, then the perception has to be that the ANC had killed them there, then that has to be the perception. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG I replied to a question that you asked me. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA And therefore this big action of yours of eliminating his life does not seem to be explained purely by the fact that you were scared of the reaction of the crowd, you killed him because he was just a problem to you the police. MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No, and in my evidence in chief I had already stated why we had done this, I said why we made this decision. MR PHOSA MR BOOYENS MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON That it was the world as a whole that you were trying to deceive, so you decided it would be better to kill a man that to detain a sick man because the world might complain again. Is that the position? MR VAN RENSBURG No, Mr Chairman, that was not the position. CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON And receiving regular hospital treatment? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. MR VAN RENSBURG No. MR PHOSA What would the ANC then do in this area once they discover that the person disappeared - you add insult to injury by saying that they killed him, what would it do - do you expect? How would it react? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I never thought of it - how they would react. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG I cannot reply to this, I never thought of that myself, it was not a consideration on my part at that stage. The only thing that I can state is that that was the way in which we planned at that stage, if we had committed an error in the planning then that was it but that is the way in which we did it. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, we had time - true. MR PHOSA In other words, there were various stages when you could still have changed your mind about it? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA Perhaps in fairness to you - you personally, you had already killed two others before so really it was no longer a big problem killing somebody? MR VAN RENSBURG No, that is not correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I can remember that. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, activists were killed at that time, I cannot say why and at what intervals and how regular. MR PHOSA At what time was he picked - were these young people picked up - what time of the day? MR VAN RENSBURG It was in the evening, I cannot remember the exact time. MR PHOSA And you stopped at a garage - at a filling station with them and bought diesel - petrol or whatever it is, an inflammable stuff? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, Mr Niewoudt has driven their vehicle and the two people were with me and Mr du Plessis. The two of us did not stop at the filling station, Mr Niewoudt stopped there, we carried on slowly and he caught up with us after buying the diesel. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG That is what actually happened, we had false registration plates on the vehicle and that is exactly what happened. MR PHOSA Fine. Did you - at what stage were they given something to put them away - to go to sleep, whatever it is - a tranquilliser? MR VAN RENSBURG I cannot exactly remember since I was not physically present when it was given to them. It was in the evening but I cannot give you the precise moment. I think or I suppose it must have been quite early during the evening. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No, not on the first evening. MR PHOSA According to the tranquilliser, what exactly did you give them? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Well, not immediately. MR PHOSA No, no, but Mr van Rensburg, I get the impression from you - whether that was the idea and with your understanding, was to knock them off - unconscious. MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON You have said in your statement Mr van Rensburg, that you and Warrant Officer Niewoudt went into the house and dragged the two sleeping people outside to - next door - near to the branches which had been placed on the ground. MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON Sorry, carry - you carried them out. MR VAN RENSBURG I thought so, I thought I used the word: "carried" - "We did carry them". CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON I suggest to you that it was not tranquillisers. MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON Did you know that Mr Coetzee came there? MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON And did he produce the knock-out pills? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. CHAIRPERSON And that knocked them out? MR VAN RENSBURG Well, it put them to sleep. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. ADV DE JAGER MR VAN RENSBURG ADV DE JAGER But you will agree it was not the normal sleeping pill that somebody will take if they have sleeping problems? MR VAN RENSBURG ADV SANDI Mr van Rensburg, were you there when these two gentlemen were give these pills or whatever substance it may be? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I was not present. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA By this act I mean the entire - the elimination was properly planned. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I suppose as far as - to our capabilities, we thought it was thoroughly planned. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Completely true. MR PHOSA That they were going to be put to sleep, must have been planned? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I understand it to be like that. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG No, the thought never crossed my mind, I - if we wanted to actually poison him again, we would have done it if that was the argument. If we wanted to eliminate him by poisoning him, we would have used poison but that in fact was not our plan. It was not our plan to poison the two gentlemen, the plan was to kill them by shooting them. CHAIRPERSON Why not poison them? MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG That is the allegation made by Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON But did he not meet you at Komatipoort or thereabouts? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. CHAIRPERSON While you had driven up from the Eastern Cape? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Oh, did you meet by chance, was he just sitting by the side of the road? MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON But he quite by chance did? MR VAN RENSBURG That is what he alleges. CHAIRPERSON Did he or did he not bring them? MR VAN RENSBURG He did bring it with but I do not know exactly what he brought with. CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, that is what happened but if he referred to it as a knock-out drop, I cannot testify to that because I do not know. CHAIRPERSON But you knew he had access to these things? MR VAN RENSBURG I do not know whether he had access ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR VAN RENSBURG He must have had access but I do not know where - where he had access to, I do not know from where he obtained it. CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Thank you Mr Chairman. You see, even apart from what has just been put to you and if you have conceded, you know you yourself were saying: "If we had wanted to poison him, we would have done it", do you remember saying that? Do you remember saying that a while ago? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes Sir, I did say within the framework of your question that: "If we wanted to poison him, we would have done that, we would not have served other drugs but our decision was to shoot them". MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Was there a Jan du Preez, a Mr Jan du Preez in this force - in your branch? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Was he known to Mr Dirk Coetzee? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA Are you aware of anything that has been said by Mr Dirk Coetzee regarding Mr du Preez and your branch and Mthimkhulu? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA What are you aware of? MR VAN RENSBURG If I remember correctly ...[intervention] MR PHOSA Yes sorry, if you remember correctly? MR VAN RENSBURG If I remember correctly, Mr Coetzee alleges that Mr du Preez said that I and a team of mine abducted Mr Mthimkhulu and killed him. MR PHOSA "Jan du Preez told me at a later stage that they poisoned this guy who ended up in hospital at Groote Schuur, who did not die". MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I see that. MR PHOSA And what do you say to that? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Did you ever speak to Mr Coetzee, Dirk Coetzee and invite him to come to your branch in Port Elizabeth in 1981 - late in 1981? MR VAN RENSBURG I did not invite him to come, he asked if he could come here. MR PHOSA You asked? Did you ask? MR VAN RENSBURG He had asked, Mr Coetzee had asked if he could come here. MR PHOSA What for? MR VAN RENSBURG To come and work here, to come and see whether returned trained cadres were here. MR PHOSA Sorry, but he says according to what appears on here on 76, he was asked - he was called to go to Port Elizabeth to help in a matter. MR VAN RENSBURG That is what he says. MR PHOSA And what do you say? MR VAN RENSBURG I say that he had requested or asked whether he could come and assist us here. MR PHOSA Anyway, is there anything you know of - as between you and Mr Coetzee, that would make him say incorrect things about you? Have you ever quarrelled? MR VAN RENSBURG No, we never quarrelled about anything. MR PHOSA Has there ever been a problem between Mr Bobelo and your branch? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR PHOSA And then the remains were - they were burnt on the same night? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Then only the next evening were they thrown in the water? MR VAN RENSBURG No, the next morning - the remains. MR PHOSA Oh the next morning. So 14th, they were taken, 15th, they were killed, on the 16th the remains were thrown down. And as they were burning there - by the way you said for how long was it? MR VAN RENSBURG I think approximately six hours is what I said, I think that is what I said. MR PHOSA No fire can burn that long, it means you kept replenishing the wood to make sure it burns? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA And you watched there, you watched there - sorry, and you sat there and watched? MR VAN RENSBURG MR PHOSA Finally then, what did you think would happen to you and your colleagues if this had been discovered? What would happen to you? MR VAN RENSBURG We would certainly have been charged with murder. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG That is so. MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, it was a concern. MR PHOSA Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PHOSA MR VAN RENSBURG It was a factor. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. General, I just want to refer you firstly to page 9 of bundle A, which is a portion of your application. I want you to refer to the last paragraph where you say "A turning point was reached in the discussions after information had been obtained from various sources which indicated that Mr Mthimkhulu had sworn that he would avenge himself etc." Now when can you remember, did this information come to hand? Was it during the 10 day period of discussion or before the 10 day period of discussion? MR VAN RENSBURG As far as I can remember it was during those 10 days. MR BRINK Now, I think it was you through your counsel, who handed in Exhibit D and those are the press cuttings. Would you refer to the second last page of that bundle and that appears to depict a photograph - or a photograph depicting the late Mr Mthimkhulu in a wheelchair and this is an extract from the Evening Post of the 18th of January 1982. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I have that in front of me. MR BRINK It appears that at that stage he was very severely crippled. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BRINK Am I correct in thinking that from the period of his return to his home in Zwede on or about that date until April 1982, he was kept under observation by members of your force? MR VAN RENSBURG Sir, I cannot reply to that, it is possible, it is very possible that that was the case but there are other gentlemen here present who could answer this with greater certainty. MR BRINK So you cannot whether or not ...[inaudible] MR VAN RENSBURG No, I cannot say how regularly he was monitored. MR BRINK The probabilities would be - would have been rather, that he was kept under observation because this was a very, very prominent activist? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, entirely correct. MR BRINK And reports surely would have been made to you about his activities in the district, activities if any at that time? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BRINK And to your knowledge, he remained in a wheelchair for some considerable time after his return? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR BRINK So the question of revenge and possibly killing members of the security force particularly Black members of the security force, would have been remote in the extreme as far as he was concerned - I mean the man was a cripple? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, as far as he himself in person is concerned, yes. MR BRINK Now the Chairman raised with you earlier in your evidence, the options which you discussed, one of which was house arrest? MR VAN RENSBURG MR BRINK MR VAN RENSBURG MR BRINK MR VAN RENSBURG Sir yes, one could argue in that manner but I have already under cross-examination by Mr Phosa, also stated the other considerations that had to be kept in mind when it came to restraining a person under house-arrest. MR BRINK General, I can understand your evidence relating to further detention in terms of Section 6, I can understand your concerns in regard to prosecution but I cannot understand your concern about house arrest in this particular case where you were dealing with a man who could not walk. MR VAN RENSBURG MR BRINK MR VAN RENSBURG MR BRINK MR VAN RENSBURG Sir, I cannot tell - as in my evidence in chief his profile increased and the information which we had that he had indeed wished to avenge himself on the security police, these are all matters that brought us to the point where we realised we had to make a decision regarding this person. MR BRINK You see, I have to suggest - and I repeat what I put to General Erasmus, people may have the perception that the reason that this man was killed within 12 days of summons being issued for damage arising out of the alleged poisoning, people may think that that was the reason for his death. MR VAN RENSBURG It could be so. MR BRINK MR VAN RENSBURG Yes, I attended a number of these meetings. MR BRINK And was the question of: "elimination" also mentioned at those meeting or was this the first time? MR VAN RENSBURG Sir, I cannot today tell you whether this was mentioned for the first time here in these Minutes or whether it happened before this meeting, whether it had been used before this meeting but this kind of terminology was used quite frequently during this kind of meeting. MR BRINK Prior to the 12th of April 19 - 14th of April 1982? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR BRINK Thank you very much. NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. MR BOOYENS Is that also the desk where Captain du Plessis was in charge? MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR BOOYENS Captain du Plessis was thus not within your line function, you were with trade unions? MR VAN RENSBURG That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR VAN RENSBURG Correct. MR BOOYENS Jan du Preez to whom Mr Phosa referred, what do you understand under the branch that was referred to? MR VAN RENSBURG He was with head office in Pretoria, he was stationed there. MR BOOYENS So you mean he was part of security branch? MR VAN RENSBURG That is what I mean. MR BOOYENS You and Jan du Preez, were you ever here together in P.E.? MR VAN RENSBURG No. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink asked you about your knowledge of the summons dated the 2nd of April, for damages arising from the poisoning and you said you knew about that, did you also know about the public enquiry that was going to be held by the Magistrate on the 5th of May, into the allegations of assault? MR VAN RENSBURG No, I cannot remember anything like that, maybe at that stage but now I cannot remember anything like that. CHAIRPERSON Colonel Erasmus confirmed yesterday that he knew of it and amongst the exhibits is a subpoena to appear at it. MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Well I said Colonel Erasmus yesterday said he knew of this Magisterial enquiry and I also said that one of the papers before us - one of the exhibits in Exhibit B is a subpoena in respect of the same enquiry for the Magistrates Court in Port Elizabeth on the 5th of May. MR VAN RENSBURG No, I do not deny the fact that there was such an investigation, if you say that I was subpoenaed to be there I cannot deny it but I cannot remember that I was subpoenaed for such a case. CHAIRPERSON more adverse publicity looming up. And you have been questioned further by Mr Brink about house-arrest and you have said you feared the outcomes of that so but I suggest to you that house-arrest with suitable arrangements for medical treatment and visits to hospitals of a man who was patently an invalid, would not have stirred up the public outcry that you say you envisaged. MR VAN RENSBURG Maybe Sir we differ on this point then. CHAIRPERSON And a further matter I would like to raise in this regard is I understood when I asked you about house arrest myself earlier you indicated that it would be impossible to have proper surveillance and you spoke of no-go areas and matter of that nature, do you remember telling me about them? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes. CHAIRPERSON And yet when Mr Brink questioned you you said it's very possible that he was kept under regular surveillance after he returned home. MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I said it was possible. I actually cannot give further comments as to how regular that monitoring occurred. CHAIRPERSON And another of the affidavits put before us in the Exhibit Book, B, at page 78, the affidavit commences at page 78, at page 86 it is an affidavit by I think a relation, it may be his mother, saying that immediately after his disappearance the police were "regularly visiting our house to check on him", which would indicate that it certainly was not in a no-go area, do you agree with that? MR VAN RENSBURG Yes I do not deny that, I agree. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VAN RENSBURG Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED