amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-09-25 PORT ELIZABETH 3 & 4 GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT 3820/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54802&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/4madaka.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Nieuwoudt is entitled to a hearing here without interruption or intimidation. If this continues I will have no option but to ask that the hall be cleared. ADV SANDI MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, I just want to record also that I reserve my rights at this stage just in light of what has happened now, that there seems to be a fair amount of hostility - I reserve my rights. At this stage I wish to carry on and I would like the public to hear what Mr Nieuwoudt says but I would reserve any rights I might have in this regard, should it become impossible for us to feel that we can conduct our case in such a way that justice can not only be done but also be seen to be done. I call Mr Nieuwoudt. Mr Nieuwoudt could I please swear - could you please stand. ADV DE JAGER Full names? GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Mr Nieuwoudt on the first page, that is page 31 of the Annexure A, you have stated your personal particulars, are they correct? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Up to the middle of page 32, you give a history of your time in the police force? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You also made the statement on page 6 - page 34, paragraph 6 that the church of which you were a member also decided at synod level, that the policy of separate development as it was termed by the Government of the day could be justified in terms of the Bible. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Your conditioning and influencing started when you were very young? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS If we can turn to paragraph 8, the security forces and the National Party leadership figures who repeatedly told you the revolutionary basis of the liberation movements. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS After that in paragraph 9, you refer to the so-called counter-revolutionary philosophy. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS Yes, I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Namely the strategy which was being finalised which had to be put into effect. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Here and more specifically on page 63, if you could just for reference sake, take note that on page 62 at the top it is stated: "Objective Tasks, Action, Responsible Department" and so forth. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You have referred specifically to the objective mentioned on page 63 - it should be animus leaders, to neutralise and to destroy their influence. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS And their task which is stipulated clearly in the column is that their leaders should be identified and the areas of influence determined and that they should be neutralised or eliminated. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS What are quell actions referred to there. MR NIEUWOUDT Those are problematic areas. MR BOOYENS What are grab operations? MR NIEUWOUDT The point referred to concerns problems where people had to be arrested or removed MR BOOYENS No English translation. MR NIEUWOUDT Then the following one was a task used to persuade people. MR BOOYENS In other words to change their views. MR NIEUWOUDT To change their views and their ideologies. MR BOOYENS And then legal action, we all understand what is meant by that. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS What is interesting are the actions described here, neutralisation or elimination actions. MR NIEUWOUDT These are neutralisation actions Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS To you what does the word eliminate mean? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Especially if one speaks about a person to be eliminated? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS You furthermore refer also to the document which starts on page 64 ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER What was the intention in using those words? MR NIEUWOUDT In other words, they should be covert operations. MR BOOYENS In other words, these operations - it should not be known that the security forces were involved? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Then there is a strategic communication document, what is the origin of this - it comes from a Captain Putter. This is a document which has been attached in order to illustrate what this ...[inaudible] was that was so widely spoken of. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairman.. MR BOOYENS Once again it is dated 9th of October 1988, what is the content of this? Was the contents known to you? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS This seems to be a study document and a summary of what was happening in other countries. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS It is mentioned that every department had certain instruments allocated it and for which it was responsible in carrying out - 66.4, at the bottom of 66, the SA police, law enforcement and Stratcom. MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS On age 67, paragraph 4, reference is made to covert action also known as Stratcom and especially - according to what Mr de Jager asked you, secret actions which were carried out in a way that they could not be detected to achieve the objectives of national security policy. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS What is pulver? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS And then mention is made that it concerns these actions that cannot be detectable in order to achieve the objectives of the national security policy. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS The Western Governments emphasise the upholding of civilised values such as freedom of speech, individual rights and press freedom Stratcom concerns the secret manipulation of groups or undermining of organisations and the image which Governments wanted to uphold of themselves. MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. MR BOOYENS So a lot has been said about the fact that the politicians in general were reluctant to admit that some unlawful deeds were carried out on their behalf, does it concern that? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is so Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Other countries are also referred to and their manner of dealing with such instances for example, in Britain there were British involved in - this is on page 71 and a number of similar deeds and how they acted in terms of sabotage and assassination. On page 78, paragraph (g), "Secret Political Warfare in South Africa", an exposition is given of the Department of Information and what they did. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS What is important to note on page 82 is paragraph 58: "Covert Stratcom is run in the South African police by the security branch". MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS And Stratcom actions in paragraph 3 are not unknown for the security branch, they have been busy on an ad-hoc basis for years with this. The South African police is sometimes accused by implication by the press of Stratcom actions including assassinations, damage of property and sabotage. MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS On page 35, if I may return to the earlier part of the document, you sketch a general background of experience in the security branch? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS On page 37, you sketch the history of different cases where you were the investigating officer. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You make a statement on page 37 that: "You were well grounded on the knowledge of certain liberation organisations"? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Mr Nieuwoudt you have applied on page 38 for amnesty for the abduction, killing and removal of Mthimkhulu and Madaka? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS I think it is essential here to mention that your document corresponds with the applications of the former applicants. I think you should start before the 14th of April 1982. Were the deceased persons known to you? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You were working under the command of Mr du Plessis? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You were a Warrant Officer at the time? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, he was involved or had been involved since 1976 during the Black consciousness activities of which he had played a prominent role in. And at that period of time Black consciousness, in other words SASIN, the Black Consciousness Movement, the BBC had played a prominent role and this was also the run up to the 16th of June riots nationally of which on the 17th of August 1977, the unrest erupted in Port Elizabeth as well. MR BOOYENS So he was involved in these organisations. When did he pertinently come to your attention? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS What happened there as far as Mr Mthimkhulu was concerned? MR NIEUWOUDT At that stage the bodyguards of Mr Buthelezi were fired at. MR BOOYENS According to the information you have, who was responsible for the shooting? MR NIEUWOUDT According to information the deceased Mthimkhulu, was responsible or he was involved in the shooting incident. MR BOOYENS Was he arrested? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS So you said he was arrested at a later stage? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS In connection with these incidents? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS That is the Graaff Reinet incident? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Did you have anything to do with the investigation? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Chairperson, at that time I only assisted. If I remember there was a Colonel Vosloo of SWD who was responsible for the investigation and I assisted him in tracing him for the arrest. MR BOOYENS Did you arrest Mr Mthimkhulu? MR NIEUWOUDT Not personally but I was part of a group who arrested him. MR BOOYENS Do you know if he was prosecuted successfully? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS In any case did he become more prominent later in Port Elizabeth? This was your first encounter with him, what was his role later? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Did Mr Mthimkhulu later become involved in COSAS, the Congress of South African Students? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot remember the exact dates - after, in October 1978, all the Black consciousness movements were unbanned. In 1979 at Wilgerspruit, the organisations - the Congress of South African Students was established which took over the Black consciousness ideology under the influence of the SACP and the ANC ideology. Most of the leadership figures and elements of which Mr Mthimkhulu was also a part, joined this organisation and reinitiated the move in Port Elizabeth. At that stage One Two Zenzile was the National Executive President and he was elected as the president of COSAS. MR BOOYENS What role did Mr Mthimkhulu play in COSAS? MR NIEUWOUDT He was part of the executive of the local branch of this Province. MR BOOYENS Did you have contact with him in the capacity as a security force person? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. MR BOOYENS Did he come across as a strong leadership person? MR NIEUWOUDT He did and my impression - with great ...[inaudible] Chairperson, my impression was that he was extremely militant because of the conflict between the Black ideology and the Whites really came to the fore. MR BOOYENS Did the situation in the Eastern Cape develop further? We have heard evidence already that the situation deteriorated - the security situation. According to your investigation, did Mr Mthimkhulu play a role in this situation? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS What exactly was his role? MR NIEUWOUDT He was involved in the school boycotts in 1980. MR BOOYENS Did he play a prominent role here? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Mr du Plessis was the branch commander or what was his position? MR NIEUWOUDT He was the commander of the unit of the Black component of the security branch. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT I agree Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And that eventually this spread further into school organisations and COSAS and to other organisations who also became involved. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS After this while this situation deteriorated there was a campaign with the Republican Festival? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Was Mr Mthimkhulu - during the campaign in May of 1981, was he arrested and detained in terms of the security legislation of the time? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS If we can leave Mr Mthimkhulu for a moment and turn to Mr Topsi Madaka, ...[intervention] ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Booyens before you leave that, where was Mr Mthimkhulu arrested in 1981? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, he was arrested at Mjoli Street. That was is Kwazakele, a Black township in Port Elizabeth. ADV SANDI What were the circumstances of his arrest? Had you gone out there to look for him? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Lulama Bangani was in possession of ANC documents and he was arrested and he alleged that Mr Mthimkhulu, the late Mr Siphiwe Mthimkhulu, had been involved in the distribution of these ANC pamphlets. If I remember correctly he said that both of them had obtained these documents from the ANC in Lesotho and that was the reason there had already been a whole series of arrests that had taken place. ADV SANDI I do not intend to interrupt your leading of your witness but right at that point, Mthimkhulu, is he distributing pamphlets - what is he doing? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Okay carry on, sorry for that. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT No. MR BOOYENS Somebody else arrested him? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, according to the information which we had Topsi Madaka was involved in a covert underground structure ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS You can continue. MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Was he in the same cell as Mthimkhulu? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS If you were to place him in order of rank as far as that operation was concerned, where would you place him? MR NIEUWOUDT Mthimkhulu seems to have been the number one person, I would make him second in command. MR BOOYENS The information on Topsi Madaka, where did you get this information from? MR NIEUWOUDT That came from an extremely sensitive report, an informant who was affiliated to their cell. MR BOOYENS Why - was this considered to information coming from the informants? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Why Madaka not detained in terms of the Security Act? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, because this informant was the only one and he placed in a very sensitive position in the network of Madaka and if we should have detained him, it would not have mattered what questions you would have put to Madaka he would have immediately through neutralisation have established the identity of this informant. I can categorically state here today that that person would have been eliminated by the ANC or whoever. MR BOOYENS It was well known policy of the liberation movements at that time that informants should be dealt with in this way, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS So you had information, not evidence that you could use? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS During consultation the contents of his statement and the allegations which he made against you were dealt with. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS He has - as far as you yourself are concerned, alleged that on occasions you assaulted him. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Would you like to comment on these allegations? MR NIEUWOUDT I deny these strongly, I remain with my statement - my affidavit, which is attached to my application. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT I beg your pardon, it is a statement of warning. MR BOOYENS This is the document on page 84, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS It was actually two incidents, Mr Jack and Mr Jones? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS If you had assaulted Mr Mthimkhulu as he alleges and the other assaults mentioned there - they are not as serious when compared to what you are actually applying for, would you still have applied for amnesty? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I would have. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT I was. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, Mr Chairperson. In the case of Mr Jack, I applied for amnesty during interrogation or questioning ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT To get information from him. ADV DE JAGER He did not want to give information? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER What about Mr Mthimkhulu, did you want to get information from him as well? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER And he also did not wish to divulge information. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Why did you not assault him then? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Did anyone else in your group assault him because he was not co-operating? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Could you exclude the possibility that some of the other people who were involved - because you worked in teams, is that not so? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Could you exclude the possibility that some of the other team members could have assaulted him? MR NIEUWOUDT No, I cannot exclude that possibility. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Did you administer poison to Mr Mthimkhulu or do you know about anybody? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS In the interrogation of Mr Mthimkhulu you were a Warrant Officer still, there were many other people who were involved with more senior ranks? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is so. MR BOOYENS Were many people held under the security legislation at the time? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is so. MR BOOYENS Were many people interrogated or had to be interrogated? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS So all your attention was not focused on Mr Mthimkhulu? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so, I also had to deal with informers and debrief them. MR BOOYENS Were you satisfied - let me rather rephrase, the general situation that existed in the Eastern Cape I think was sketched by Mr du Plessis to a large extent. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS As a field worker - a person in the field, did you experience the situation to be similar to that described by him? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Statements have been made and questions asked regarding exactly how ungovernable, how inaccessible the area had been, could you perhaps in your own words briefly state how during those days and I refer approximately to May when held Mr Mthimkhulu in detention until the time of his death, how you experienced the situation generally in the townships in and around Port Elizabeth and elsewhere? MR NIEUWOUDT Our degree of policing was very limited due to the unrest, to such an extent that many of our Black colleagues had their houses attacked, the guard services that should have been rendered were impossible to carry out so the general policing task and function on ground level could really not function properly. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS What was the reason? MR NIEUWOUDT They were attacked. MR BOOYENS And the people were too scared to do those services? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, they were scared to carry out the services because they would leave their own families alone and their houses would in turn be attacked. MR BOOYENS Your workload at that stage particularly as far as the security branch was concerned, how serious was it - particularly in your case as a Warrant Officer? MR NIEUWOUDT I experienced it as very taxing and quite a bit of intensified actions were required in order to identify these enemy leaders - elements, and to determine who were responsible for the unrest situation and to try and prevent this and stabilise the situation. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS Was the security police present? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, his stature increased markedly after his return. During all the meetings - and perhaps I should just mention this, at that stage the following action with regard to the 70th anniversary of the ANC was taking place and that played a great role in the politicisation of the masses and in organising the masses, mobilising the masses. And a number of meetings were held in this hall where the masses were conditioned and that enmity towards the White regime or the apartheid Government featured very prominently. MR BOOYENS What role if any, did Mr Madaka play at these meetings? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Is that bundle A? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS At the same, in the middle of the page "Setting up Arms Caches etc., as well as forming a cellular organisational structure in the main townships", Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI MR NIEUWOUDT I am sketching the scenario from 1980 onwards which continued up to 1982. ADV SANDI You are at 1982 now? MR NIEUWOUDT It continues right through but what I referred to now was 1981 Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER You referred to page 96, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is so Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER MR BOOYENS Mr Chair, through you - sorry, two pages had been copied. On the left hand side, the second paragraph which starts with: "In contrast to the first Umkhonto campaign" and more or less in the middle of the same paragraph there is a reference to: "Setting up arms caches as well as forming a cellular organisation structure in the main townships". ADV SANDI Sorry, this book by Tom Lodge, when was it published? MR BOOYENS ADV SANDI You can carry on. That is after Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka had been eliminated? MR BOOYENS ...[inaudible] MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS With respect yes, the book was published after the death of Mr Mthimkhulu but it deals with the period from 1945 Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER ADV DE JAGER MR BOOYENS That is so Mr Chairperson, we just quoted this as confirmation of the statement made by the witness regarding the situation. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER I beg your pardon Mr Nieuwoudt, but I just wish to determine whether these facts given in the book are approximately correct and you have to assist me to tell me whether these are so or not. On page 96 we have the statement that in August 1981 Oliver Tambo made a certain announcement - "Before the Tambo statement appeared in a foreign press, it was not reported inside South Africa, a bomb exploded in the main shopping centre of Port Elizabeth. Unlike earlier inner city explosions, this one took place during working hours". MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson, the facts are correct. ADV DE JAGER Do you know when this bomb explosion in the shopping centre took place? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Could you perhaps tell us? MR NIEUWOUDT I have a docket with me here Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Could you just give us a date? ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS May I continue Mr Chair? Your colleague also made reference very briefly of other bomb explosions, specifically in the Port Elizabeth area. Do you confirm that in July 1981 a bomb exploded at the old administration offices? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS And later on in 1981, at the railway line New Brighton? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Besides these, were there murders committed on policemen? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Can you remember specific incidents? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I can. MR BOOYENS Could you please tell us? MR NIEUWOUDT Sergeant Mtselo who worked with me from 1 April 1975 when I joined the security branch, he was my Black colleague who had been allocated to me. MR BOOYENS When more or less was he murdered? MR NIEUWOUDT I think - well he was murdered in 1981 in front of the police station at Kwazakele. MR BOOYENS And any others? MR NIEUWOUDT Then Sergeant Mtanda. MR BOOYENS Also security branch? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS That is as far as security branch policemen are concerned? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Although you are not aware of names or cannot remember names, if you recall, were other Black members of the police force also murdered, killed or had their property damaged? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Did he do so from his wheelchair? MR NIEUWOUDT He did so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Did the fact that he was confined to a wheelchair affect his competence as a speaker? MR NIEUWOUDT No. MR BOOYENS As a political speaker to state it more clearly? MR NIEUWOUDT No, not at all. MR BOOYENS The fact that he was in a wheelchair, did he use this as an example of what the agents of the apartheid regime allegedly did to him? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson, if I remember correctly, the terminology that was used was: "This was what the system had done to me". MR BOOYENS So was this illness according to your perceptions, to some extent misused by him or used/misused - it all depends on which perspective you take, to advance his political perspective? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS So by the time that we reach the beginning of April 1982, would you say that the situation had escalated - that is now the unrest situation in general in the Eastern Cape, from what it had been at the period May of the previous year? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. MR BOOYENS Would you say the situation was much worse or just a little worse or what was the position? MR NIEUWOUDT I would say the situation had escalated increasingly. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS Now upon this - I beg your pardon, as a field worker you collected information regarding these two people and others? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS You always refer to physical and non-physical sources, how did you collect the terms - the information? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You were at that stage an experience investigating officer? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Could you succeed in collecting adequate information in order to compile a docket which you could confidently take to the court against any of the two? MR NIEUWOUDT No, may I please explain? In this hall in particular the acoustics are now much better than they were at that stage but if you look at the stage - if you look from the stage upwards, the sound was so bad that even Professor Jansen who specialised in voice identification, could not identify any voice properly. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, reports were compiled and they were sent through to him and he took note thereof, I also spoke to him personally. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. CHAIRPERSON How long are you going to be with this witness do you think? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS (cont) Mr Chairman, may I just discuss something with my client please? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS They repeat essentially the information and the information set out here, is this the information that you conveyed to them? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You heard the evidence of the three senior officers, that it was decided eventually that the elimination of the two deceased was the only option left open? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Were you part of the original decision? MR NIEUWOUDT No, I was not. MR BOOYENS It seems that after this decision - before the death of these persons, you were approached by Mr du Plessis according to his evidence, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Did he then inform you the nature of the conversations which had been held? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS And did he then tell you that a decision had been taken that the two deceased persons must be eliminated? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Did he instruct you, request you or approach you to assist? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Did he give you time to think about this? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS What was your attitude, were you willing? Did you agree? MR NIEUWOUDT I did. MR BOOYENS Was this the first time that you were involved in something like this? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS At that stage was there already a prevailing attitude which you as a junior member would have perceived that elimination of certain persons was an option in some cases? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Did you declare your willingness to participate in this? MR NIEUWOUDT I did Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Do you then confirm the contents of pages of the application up to pages 48, paragraph 14 of the application? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Were you aware that the commander of the office had been informed? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT No. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You were involved with the abduction of these two persons near to the Holiday Inn in Port Elizabeth? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS How did you know that they were going to the Holiday Inn? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS So you know they were going to the Holiday Inn? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You and Mr du Plessis then stopped them near to the Holiday Inn? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You were known to both these persons? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Did you bring them under the impression that you wished to - or that they should come with you for questioning? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You got into the car with them and Captain du Plessis followed you? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS You drove some distance and at Algoa Park you met Mr van Rensburg? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS You went to Post Chalmers, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS Can we just deal with something else now, before the time Mr du Plessis told you that when these persons were to be eliminated you had to get something to put them to sleep? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS Did you say that you would get hold of a substance? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS What did you have in mind? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Just to give an indication, how strong were these sleeping tablets? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Surely not immediately? MR NIEUWOUDT Well, shortly afterwards. MR BOOYENS Did these tablets cause you to sleep? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You took some of these sleeping tablets with you? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Can you remember if there was a conversation whether you had the sleeping tablets or something to get them to sleep, with you or not? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS Was this part of the part of the plan for you to take diesel with? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS Did you have two jerry cans with you? MR NIEUWOUDT We did. MR BOOYENS In other words, they take 50 litres in total? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Did you have these empty jerry cans in your car and did you put them over into their car? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS And along the road, did you fill these containers with diesel? Can you remember where? MR NIEUWOUDT If I remember it was at Cradock before we moved out. MR BOOYENS You got there quite late at night? MR NIEUWOUDT I just want to come back to that, it was at an ordinary filling station, I think I still paid for it out of my own pocket. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT No. MR BOOYENS So it was a secret operation. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You then drove to Post Chalmers? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You arrived at night? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS That night the impression may have been created that you wanted to question the persons - the deceased, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Did you sleep that evening and spend the next day there? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS The following evening, did you give the deceased some sleeping tablets? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS How did you so this? MR NIEUWOUDT It was in their coffee that I offered them, I put and overdose of the tablets in the coffee and I gave it to them to drink. MR BOOYENS Can you remember how many tablets you gave the deceased each? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot be precise but it was more than two or four. MR BOOYENS The prescribed dosage was a half a tablet. MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS The deceased went to sleep? MR NIEUWOUDT They did Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You and Mr van Rensburg - or you, was it you - and Mr van Rensburg carried them out? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr van Rensburg and I carried them out. MR BOOYENS Van Rensburg shot the one person, you shot the other? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Afterwards the bodies were placed on some wooden stumps, diesel was put on and they were set alight? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS During the course of the evening, on several occasions you had to keep the fire going and put on more wood? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS After about six hours their bodies were nearly ash? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS The next morning, did you gather the remains and throw these into the Fish River? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Was the purpose of that to create the impression that these persons had left the country? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS And one of his well-known phrases was: "The total onslaught" phrase? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS The message which came to you as a security force person even as one of the junior officers, was that this "total onslaught" had to be fought? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS The utterances of the leaders of the day at that time concerned largely words such as: "enemies which had to be eliminated, the ANC had to be taken on" and similar statements? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS A politician never told you directly to kill people? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS But the deduction which you made from what the politicians had been saying what they wanted was? MR NIEUWOUDT That was that we should eliminate people and that we should protect the Apartheid Government and the White population at all times. MR BOOYENS They wanted the results, you could work out the methods. MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Did you yourself believe that you could contribute in achieving this objective of a complete action against the "total onslaught"? MR NIEUWOUDT I did believe this. MR BOOYENS If we can just return to the two deceased persons specifically. As far as you were concerned the death of the two deceased would be essential for achieving this objective or not the entire achievement but partial achievement of combating the total onslaught? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct, with the objective of toppling the Government. MR BOOYENS So the total objective was to ...[inaudible] the toppling of the Government? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BOOYENS You mention on page 52, the political objectives which you wanted to achieve, do you confirm the contents of 52? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Mr Nieuwoudt, did you participate in the killing of these persons - first listen to the question. Did you participate in killing them for your own purposes? MR NIEUWOUDT No. MR BOOYENS Or in any way to gain anything out of it yourself? MR NIEUWOUDT No. MR BOOYENS As far as you were concerned, it was for the protection of a political dispensation? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS At that stage, did you believe that that political dispensation which was in place was necessary for South Africa? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS So it was based on your own political convictions? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS So you acted in a double capacity - if I can put it that way, on the one hand then as a security policeman and in the other context, privately as a support of the Government? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS And this was what your conviction and belief was based on? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS If we can just touch on some other aspects, why are you applying for amnesty in this case and other cases? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, because of the opportunity and process that was made available to me, also taking into consideration the crime and conflict which arose at that time, I personally am sorry towards the families - sorry about happened. I was caught up in the middle of the struggle and the conflict of the past against the liberation organisations who wanted to overthrow the apartheid Government and it was on that basis that I was caught up in the middle of this conflict. MR BOOYENS That is why you decided to apply for amnesty? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Your colleagues have said that in police ranks and between your colleagues and yourself the opportunity of amnesty has been discussed? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS And there has been a measure of distrust towards this process, did you have the same experience? MR NIEUWOUDT I did experience it in this way Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And it was only later after General van der Merwe had given an input and you had discussed it with Mr van der Merwe and the attorney, that you decided to apply for amnesty? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS You also discussed this with your former colleagues I presume? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Did you mention to them that you were planning to apply for amnesty? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BOOYENS As far as this particular matter is concerned and to your knowledge, was anybody else involved in this matter apart from the four applicants? Were there other offenders involved? MR NIEUWOUDT Not that I know about. MR BOOYENS MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR BOOYENS Yes, Exhibit E Mr Chairman. He pointed out the - which resulted in the key to the photographs and plan. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR VISSER I have no questions to this witness, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PHOSA Mr Nieuwoudt, why did you have some - why was there a measure of distrust regarding this process? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, at this stage I was in a hearing where I had been found guilty. The process had not got going yet and when the process at a later stage got going, I was brought under the impression that a witch-hunt would be carried out against us, Nuremberg style hearings, trials would take place. That was my own perception and was already in 1993 - the way it was conveyed to me MR PHOSA You refer to the Nuremberg style process. Look, give us an idea what your concern is about that if that was going to happen to you, what was the problem with that according to you? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA Did Mr Hodgen say to you - according to his understanding, the then existing criminal process would be abandoned? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct, that is the way it was explained to me. MR PHOSA Are you saying he said that to you? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA Do you say that was at a stage when there already were - was another matter pending against you? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA And was the procedure, sorry - had that matter not commenced yet? MR NIEUWOUDT No. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT He was the Acting Attorney General. MR PHOSA Is he still alive? MR NIEUWOUDT I suspect so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA In all circumstances, did he give you that sort of advice or interpretation? MR NIEUWOUDT I beg your pardon. It was during the Goniwe inquest that he informed me to this effect. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Perhaps I should just explain. I was tasked with assisting the team who represented the police during the inquest. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT I had to assist with the legal team which represented the police as a whole during the inquest. MR PHOSA Were you yourself one of the accused or suspects in that matter, the Goniwe matter? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, that was the impression that I received from Hodgen, that he suspected me as one of the suspects in the case but it never came out in evidence, only later in the Motherwell case. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT He was actually opposing me Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA So why were you there? MR NIEUWOUDT As I have explained, I assisted the legal team of the police in the investigation - the police legal team. MR PHOSA Were you helping in the investigation of the Goniwe matter? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA At the stage that you were before Mr Hodgen, was he then ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Were you before him? Was he presiding over any enquiry? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, perhaps I can supply some information for the benefit of my learned friend here, which will shorten things here ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON We hope so, will you supply the information? MR BOOYENS MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA So what did he say to you about first of all, your possible involvement in the Goniwe matter and later about the Nuremberg situation? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA That is all that is discussed between you and him about the Goniwe matter and the Nuremberg trial? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA Then, did you have any further discussions with him about Nuremberg? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA Now that was 1993? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA Now when did you ever give thought for the first time in your mind about coming forward because the situation you are referring to as I understand it, was just about the Goniwe where you were being wrongly accused? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA So when did you come and think about the present situation where you might possibly come forward and speak yourself out on the situation? MR NIEUWOUDT It was after the completely of my case before appeal where I was found guilty in the Motherwell case. MR PHOSA When was that? MR NIEUWOUDT That was in June - 27 June that I was found guilty and I was sentenced - that was last year 1996, and I applied on 13 December end of last year. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA At that stage, were you still suspecting the system - the process? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA After you were found guilty. MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, but there was another process - there was an appeal and after I had been sentenced I instituted an appeal, I filed an appeal. MR PHOSA As I understand that process, that charge, the conviction, the appeal had nothing to do with the present circumstances, you - as far as you were concerned you were - in the present case, you were not guilty, you were being accused falsely in that case. MR NIEUWOUDT I was found guilty in that case. MR PHOSA But as far as ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT Not in the Goniwe case. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Well I was found guilty in the Motherwell case. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that was my attitude but when this process of amnesty - but the process of amnesty was not ongoing at the stage when I had already pleaded. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT I took the decision in December to apply for this process whereas the process was not in operation initially and that is the reason why and I thought I had a chance, and that is so. ADV SANDI Which December are you talking about, December 1996 Mr Nieuwoudt? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI But at that time the Amnesty Committee process was already in operation. MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is so Mr Chairperson but then I filed my application. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT As I said, I had applied for appeal. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is so. MR PHOSA Even after the conviction, that was your attitude. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, as I said if we now look back, yes I had but when I was asked to plead the amnesty process was not in operation so there was no process for me, so I had to go through that and I was under the impression that there were no witnesses and the process only started in March but I had pleaded before March. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Oh, I missed that, sorry I missed that. Oh, you thought there were no witnesses? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. MR PHOSA But you see ...[intervention] MR NIEUWOUDT But if you talk at that stage Mr Chairperson ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER You thought that you could get away with it? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson no, it may be so that I feared that this could happen but at that stage I believed that there was not adequate evidence against me. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT No. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT No, Chairperson. MR PHOSA But you would stay in prison for quite a long time if you were convicted, you feared that? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA I just want to talk about de Kock, just quickly in passing Mr Chairperson. MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT I did feel sorry Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA And that was worrying you a lot. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA In spite of your great concern and worry, you went on and killed the Motherwell people. MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA And those two - the Motherwell people included your colleagues? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA ADV DE JAGER MR PHOSA I must - two things, I must get the evidence from him, secondly I must give him the opportunity. I may be wrong - yes. MR NIEUWOUDT It so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA The Government under which - the Government that you were purporting to protect had created laws which did not permit you as a policemen - even a security policeman, even as a Nationalist Party supporter, to murder people, you know that. MR NIEUWOUDT There was not Act of Law that stipulated it as such Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA Sorry, I misunderstood - stipulated what? MR NIEUWOUDT There was not Act that stipulated this, which prescribed this. ADV DE JAGER You mean there was no Act that permitted you to commit murder? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA Moreover, in terms of the laws of your Government, you were not supposed to torture people during interrogation. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA You had never - I know the things you have shown us here - the documentation, you never had any discussion with any politicos regarding their attitude to elimination of people. MR NIEUWOUDT I personally did not have any discussions with them Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA And the word - in other words, there was never a direct statement that said people should be killed. MR NIEUWOUDT If we just consider speeches by the politicians to which I could refer you ...[intervention] MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA Mr Chairperson, I really am serious about this. Has nobody else have a note where this witness said: "No politician ever said directly" ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON But he agreed with you, he said: "Politicians never told us to kill, it was a deduction that I made from what they said". He agrees with that. MR PHOSA Now because of that Mr Nieuwoudt, I ask you the next question - are you saying that the word eliminate is of dubious meaning, in other words it does not necessarily mean "kill"? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is my perception Mr Chairperson, and that is what I believed the word eliminate meant. ADV SANDI MR NIEUWOUDT That is the way I understood it. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Am I wrong in putting it? CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, you are correct. May I just refer you to my attachment or Appendix 2? CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER The strategic communication? MR BOOYENS Yes, page 70 Mr Chairperson. MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, this refers to the secret manipulation or secret undermining of groups or institutions which was directly opposite to the image which the Government wished to show of themselves. ADV SANDI MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson with all respect, could you repeat this question? ADV SANDI As of now and today, is it not your word against the word of the politicians? You say: "It was clear from this that we were being given instructions to kill" and they say: "We never meant that, that is not what we were saying. We have no policy that political opponents should be killed or eliminated". MR NIEUWOUDT You are correct Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT That is the way I also interpret it Mr Chairperson with great piety. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Now back to the other factors, why did Mr du Plessis pick you up as the person to assist them in this terrible action? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA Was he aware, as far as you know of any impropriety in your conduct before that? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA And when he chose you, you were quite willing to agree to be party to the elimination? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I did Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT I think that was so and also in general in the whole of the police force this applied Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA Was the question of the number - the small number of policemen, something that could physically be attended to if the powers that be understood the urgency? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA Assuming a request was made - I think yours is the same as mine, if a request was made to the powers that be to please increase as a matter of urgency, the number of security policemen or policemen generally in that area, would that be a relevant factor in trying to solve the problem? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA The possibility exists therefore that with a greater number of policemen it might have been possible to contain the activities of these people in the Eastern Cape and it would be better than it was happening then? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA Also if - especially after his return from this hospital, Mr Mthimkhulu had been house arrested, that too might have had an effect? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Did that have anything or something to do with the shortage of the number of members of the police force? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it was so because then one had to delegate a large number of people just to keep such a person under observation. And a further problem that could stem from this would be that the colleague who had to go and do duty there could be attacked. We were in an unrest situation and the circumstances were such. ADV SANDI In that way you had a serious problem of shortage of the police? MR NIEUWOUDT That was so, yes. ADV SANDI Did you give any thought to the idea of making a recommendation to your superiors that there should be an increase in the number of members of the police. MR NIEUWOUDT So you have to look at the circumstances that created the problems, these were all factors that created problems in the policing function of the police. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA But when a certain area, a given area is in need of a greater proportion, a number of policemen, people are - security police or army and others, are sent to that area. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER If you consider them now, how could you say we could resolve the position in KwaZulu Natal? Would it serve a purpose to send in hundreds of police and the defence force - under the present circumstances? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Does that mean ...[intervention] MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It may be so but I think that these things have to be resolved on political level because we must not get trapped in the same process where the police have the task again to act in a military manner. This is something for the politicians to resolve, the police must not be involved as in the present circumstances where I was involved during those times and under those circumstances and I think that is the main difference. If we look at the present times, we cannot really compare situations because they are so different. CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION 26 SEPTEMBER 1997 GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON It is now the 26th of September, we are continuing with the hearing and the delay in starting this morning is due to members of the Committee. ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON It shocked me that in the light of the references to the various summonses that were issued on behalf of Mr Mthimkhulu, that it would be desirable for us to have copies of those if they are available. I gather that those representing the victims do not have a copy but I will arrange to get a copy from the Supreme - the High Court from where I take it, they were issued unless anybody happens to have copies available at the moment. MR VISSER MR PHOSA Yes please, we would like that done. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON What about page 31? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Oh I see, yes of course. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON It is an admission that that is a case report by them, a statement by them, an affidavit by them. MR VISSER MR BOOYENS I make similar admissions on behalf of those applicants that I represent Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Does that assist you Mr Phosa? MR PHOSA MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA MR VISSER MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER MR PHOSA Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON A further matter that I think I should refer to is - I did not comment on it yesterday but it seems to have spread, I do not think it desirable that people should be sitting in the front row of the hall facing the applicants and potential witnesses, carrying posters. Would they please roll them up or take them down. Thank you. MR PHOSA I remain precisely so as to continue. CHAIRPERSON Carry on them Mr Phosa. MR VISSER ADV SANDI We would like to make a request that our posters be turned over or rolled up. The reason for this is that we do not want the witness to be distracted, he has to answer a lot of questions. We do not want the witness to be distracted because of the posters. If they could do the same please from the top - upstairs, they could turn their posters around. Thank you very much, we may proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PHOSA (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nieuwoudt, you told the Committee that you were - you had two positions in which you acted, one you acted in your position as a security policeman and secondly as a supporter of the Nationalist Party ruling Government, is that so? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, that was so. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA Now clearly Mr Nieuwoudt, at all times on the face of everything else you were acting in cahoots, that is jointly with your security policemen - the four - three, the four of you? MR NIEUWOUDT That was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT I did not Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA Yes, I say four of them in all. CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT He was not part of the group where we did the planning, where they involved me but they informed me that General Erasmus had given permission. MR PHOSA Since this incident took place - let me not say since, after it took place, did you communicate, you personally communicate or talk to - communicate with or talk to Mr Erasmus? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA Is the position that until you began preparing for this application, you had no direct communication with Mr Erasmus so as to find out what he was saying about this? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA When did you speak to him for the first time about this matter, if you did? MR NIEUWOUDT I did speak to Mr Erasmus regarding the matter at the time of the submission of my application, I had contact with him. MR PHOSA That then was the first time that you had personal confirmation of firstly his involvement, knowledge about this involvement and his approval of your action? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER But the question is, when did you discuss it with him for the first time? CHAIRPERSON This is direct personal contact with Mr Erasmus. MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It was so. MR PHOSA And most of your informers had not been detected by the public, in other words they were not known because some of them occupied fairly high positions? MR NIEUWOUDT That was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA If for instance Mr Mthimkhulu had been given house arrest - had been ordered to remain in his house and he breached that, there was any number of informers who would have informed you about that without being detected - themselves being detected? MR NIEUWOUDT And then he would just go into the next room and in this way he would shield this type of meeting in terms of which he would have been accused then. So that was the practical sort of problem in terms of informers. CHAIRPERSON Now that is a very different matter from a private meeting of two people inside a house, surely your informers could have given information that he was going to present at a meeting so you could have had a plain clothes policeman who could give evidence? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it was so Mr Chairperson, but I was just replying with regard to the house arrest matter, the practical problems on ground level concerning house arrest. But as far as the public gatherings were concerned, there were informers who reported regarding these matters to us. MR PHOSA No, I think you are either misunderstanding the churn of the question or just avoiding it or evading it. The question is - let me put it that way and I understood it to be the emphasis, with your highly positioned informers - informers who were highly positioned in the other camp, you could surely have had some of them attending the meetings that he would have in his room because - this is hypothetical now, he could have attended meetings and they would have been present at the meetings in his room or house. MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA I take your point, I agree indeed. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA Yes, but you see that is clearly an isolated incident, that would be an occasion which anybody else expects will create a lot of activity. MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I am aware of the process. MR PHOSA And I would say to you that would be a way of isolating or eliminating them from the area? MR NIEUWOUDT That would have been so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA To talk just quickly about your attitude to your work as a policeman. You mentioned - if I understood you well, that you did assault some people you were interrogating. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA Now, and you said you assaulted them so as to get information? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA That of course is one of the accepted methods amongst the security police or extracting information from those who are reluctant to give it? Unless you are going to suggest that you are queer - you are strange. MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA Did anyone determine amongst you the police, how far the assault must go, in others words: "Look you can beat him up to this point but not so far - no further". Was that ever done? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA Did anyone set out the method and say: "Look, if you want to beat him do it this way and not the other way"? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT You are correct Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA Anything that will make him uncomfortable and lose resistance? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA So you could make him stand on bricks because that would be most uncomfortable, that also was permissible? MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Reads MR PHOSA "The whole struggle must concentrate on winning the support of the majority of the people of South Africa" MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA And even in that paragraph, the phrase 4th from the bottom "The revolutionaries among the population must be separated from that population" I say to you that gives the underlying notion of all this to distance the population from the leadership, that is the whole emphasis. MR NIEUWOUDT It could be so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Which page where - the reference? MR PHOSA Perhaps then to complete that just to make it easier for you - paragraph 5, if you read from the beginning and then you get to the end of the 3rd line or maybe begin in the middle of the 3rd line "But it is of course essential that on national level there should be continuous planning" MR NIEUWOUDT I see that Mr Chairperson, but could you please read it in context with the word: "budget for". MR PHOSA Where is that? MR NIEUWOUDT "At national level there should be continuous planning which will address the revolutionary warfare for the present and on the long term and that strong co-ordinated action on regional and local level will have - it will have to be devolved to that level and budgeted for." MR PHOSA Maybe you should just make your point, what are saying about "budgeted for"? Are you saying "budgeted for" does not accommodate my suggestion that the whole idea was a co-ordinated action? Are you saying I am wrong about that - in that? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA ADV SANDI MR PHOSA CHAIRPERSON Budgeting surely indicates, certainly in this country that it must be on a national basis? MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is so and it was devolved to local level. MR PHOSA Alright. Paragraph 6 ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA What still emerges in paragraph 6 if you take the second sentence, I suggest to you indicates once again that even this document had in mind lawful action on the part of the police. In other words, the Government had to give more authority to the police, not that they should act in their own way. You may disagree with me but please read the second sentence and perhaps for the benefit of everybody, read aloud. "The State could not" Go on from there please. MR NIEUWOUDT "The State could not afford to call out a state of emergency" MR PHOSA Read on please. MR NIEUWOUDT "The State could not afford I ...[inaudible] to call out a state of emergency. And legislation which would give broader powers to the safety and security community was essential in order to prevent the Republic of South Africa from being forced to take much more drastic measures soon" MR PHOSA Can you stop there? Do you accept that the idea there is that legislation must be made use of, this meeting was saying: "Let us create legislation to deal with the problem". MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR PHOSA Read the next sentence, that last one. MR NIEUWOUDT "An element that stands out in the legislation is the competence or ability to remove the revolutionary elements from the community through unrestricted detention where Judges, Magistrates, physicians and senior police officials would have access to them". MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Mr Nieuwoudt, not in one of these paragraphs do we have the word eliminate. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR PHOSA And nothing sinister in the summary that appears on page 61, paragraph 9 can be read that suggests that people must be killed - from my reading of that paragraph, nothing suggests killing. MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA And then the strategy communication from page 6 ...[inaudible], just explain to me what you understand or what is meant in the third paragraph on page 65. Just read it and explain to me how you understand it. MR NIEUWOUDT "Every Government has the purpose and objective of protecting national values against enemies and to build them out to the benefit of the nation or the group" MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is so, that paragraph does not refer to that kind of person. MR PHOSA Anyway just before I forget, you see this particular document as I see it, emphasises quite a lot of action being done by the Government - even there it says: "the Government", my general reading of it - you have read it, is that all these things are supposed to be done at a Government level. Did you get a different impression - not this paragraph but generally? MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson, but I would like to explain that certain objectives were set in the appendix which we have already dealt with, in which the Government set out certain guidelines and which were carried into effect, so they suggested policy on national level but this policy was carried out on ground level. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT I interpret this differently, there are other steps that should be taken into consideration because this is psychological warfare forming part of it - there is a further step to be taken. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT As far as strategic communication is concerned, yes that is correct. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT I never did it so I - but it is possible. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA And you heard Mr du Plessis or is it Mr du Plessis, one of them are admitting though that it is normal to send someone to go and collect food for a detainee to be given whilst being detained. MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson, it was general practice among us to provide food to the detainees. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is correct Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot deny that Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA Now to come to your substance now, the one that you used when you - before killing Mr Mthimkhulu, where did you get it from? MR NIEUWOUDT As I already stated it was a prescription drug, a medical doctor had prescribed it. It was a tranquilliser, a sleeping tablet. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, I can no longer remember who the doctor was. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Where was the doctor around here, was it Port Elizabeth or where was it? Where did you get this prescription? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, in Port Elizabeth. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, when I was in Port - when I arrive in Port Elizabeth, there were various - well we - our medical doctor were, the chief physician was the district surgeon and he had a number of doctors under him whom we saw. After him it was Doctor de Ruyter. I saw a number of specialists as well and now I am with Doctor Swartz. ADV SANDI MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA Are you then saying if it was not the district surgeon - sergeant, then it was either Doctor Ruyter or Doctor Swartz who gave this to you? CHAIRPERSON MR PHOSA I meant it in that context, I say in that context. If it was not inside that ...[inaudible] district surgeon, so it would be either Doctor - who was it now, did he say Ruyter or Swartz? MR NIEUWOUDT I can exclude Doctor Swartz because I recently went to Doctor Swartz. MR PHOSA Now for - what were you studying for? You said you used to use this instrument - this substance when you did your studies, what were you studying for? MR NIEUWOUDT I studied for becoming a lieutenant for the police examinations. ADV SANDI Can you give a description of this substance you were talking about? How did it look like? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, it was an ordinary white sleeping tablet. ADV SANDI And when you gave it to Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka, Mr Mthimkhulu - you said yesterday he was able to simply take it with the coffee and drink it, was that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Was that in spite of ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What did these tablets taste of? Or did you merely swallow them? MR NIEUWOUDT I just swallowed them Mr Chairperson. The prescription was that I had to take half a tablet. CHAIRPERSON So you had no idea whether they had a strong taste? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Mr Mthimkhulu simply took the coffee and drank it in spite of the fact that he had already accused you of having poisoned him whilst he was in detention? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON I understood it to mean the police. ADV SANDI The police and not Mr Nieuwoudt personally, and this is at the time Mr Mthimkhulu has already made the allegation that whilst he was in detention he was poisoned by the police. Now he is given a coffee with this substance in it, he simply accepts it and he drinks it with no difficulty, no resistance. MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I find - you were told as part of your instructions that you must get hold of some medicine that would put these people to sleep? MR NIEUWOUDT That was so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And this was while you were planning the abduction? MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson, but they were sleeping tablets which would just put them to sleep Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA Were you in a hurry, why do you - look, if you look back now you reflect, can you see this is strange - your conduct was strange, can you see that? MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA I did tell you that we were challenging your story. Now when did you ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Are you going on to something else? MR PHOSA No, no, this one - the same point ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON On the sleeping pills? MR PHOSA Yes, yes. When did you do your examinations to be a lieutenant? MR NIEUWOUDT In 1981, I wrote the examination, in 1982, I passed. MR PHOSA Because according to your application here, you became a lieutenant in 1983. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct, but the examinations which I wrote were written in 1982 and the course was in 1983. MR PHOSA You mean you wrote the exam over two years? MR NIEUWOUDT In 1983 then, I went on course, that was how the procedure worked. You had to be in service before hand for a certain period before you could gain admission to the examination, so there were procedures which followed or which had to be followed at the time - just as an explanation of how it worked. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA In other words, we are saying that you had a substance - if you did use a substance, it was a substance that was known to you to be dangerous and you did not get it from your doctor, you go it from some special person. Do you disagree with that? MR NIEUWOUDT I deny this very strongly Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson, we had already decided when I was involved the first time, that we would abduct them and eliminate them and the decision was taken there, there were no other aims or objectives Mr Chairperson. MR PHOSA MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, it was a covert action and the reason why we waited until the next day, I was so well known, Mr du Plessis was well known and somebody could just have seen us on the evening of the 14th when we abducted the late Mr Siphiwe Mthimkhulu or the late Mr Topsi Madaka and that is the reason why we only eliminated them the next evening. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Can you give us more picture about the circumstances in which abduction occurred. You had information from your informers that these two gentlemen were going to be at Holiday Inn, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV SANDI What were they going to be doing there? MR NIEUWOUDT If I remember correctly, I was under the impression that they would meet a lady friend there who worked there. That was the information that I had received from my source. ADV SANDI Did that information come to you before they went there or when you got the information they were already there? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Which part of Holiday Inn were they going to be, were they going to visit the drinking section of the hotel or go and stand at the entrance part of the Holiday Inn? Where exactly were they going to be there? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT As I had explained Mr Chairperson, because it was such a covert action we just used the opportunity but somebody could have seen us along the way. There were many factors that we had to be aware of, they were also well known, an activist could have identified them or me and that was the reason. CHAIRPERSON If you say you had to collect the firewood I can understand it but I cannot understand how a 24 hour delay would in any way aid you if you had been identified. MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, we abducted them the evening of the 14th, we arrived there late, the next day the 15th that evening we eliminated them Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When you abducted them, was that before they got to the Holiday Inn? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson, it was when they left the Holiday Inn. CHAIRPERSON You stopped their vehicle I take it and they recognised you? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Did you point guns at them? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON And you then drove off and told them you were going to interrogate them? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you then drove to Cradock? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT They were with Messrs van Rensburg and du Plessis. CHAIRPERSON In what sort of vehicle? MR NIEUWOUDT His official vehicle. CHAIRPERSON What is it? MR NIEUWOUDT It was a Cortina. CHAIRPERSON And they thought they were being taken to be interrogated? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Instead of which they were driven to Cradock, a long way away? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. CHAIRPERSON Were they not in a state of great alarm when you arrived at Cradock? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson, if I think back there was no perceptible revelation of alarm or distress because they were under the impression that we were going to interrogate them. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON And what happened when you got there? You just let them go to bed did you? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What happened when you got there? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON No people from Pretoria arrived? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson, they offered no resistance whatsoever, that I can promise you. CHAIRPERSON And we have been told no notes were made of any interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT It was purely an interview Mr Chairperson, no notes were taken. There was no real purpose for interrogation Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And what did they do while you went outside and collected the firewood you were going to use to burn them? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, as I said General van Rensburg and I collected firewood and then Colonel du Plessis would look after them and we swapped around and collected the wood in that manner. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Did they talk to each other during all this? MR NIEUWOUDT I would believe they did so Mr Chairperson, they spoke to each other because they were together all the time. ADV SANDI You said you spoke with them and you did not really interrogate them, did I understand you correctly? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV SANDI What did you say to them? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Was this not a very important opportunity for you, you had a problem, there were widespread unrest in the area, there was political instability, the security situation was very bad you said, was it not a very important moment for you to talk to these people and ask them what exactly is happening here? Who is behind this, who are they working with? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT That was so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI So, whatever information they may have had, you just wanted to kill that information? If you kill them, you kill them with the information. MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that was so Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson, there were revenge attacks on security policemen, not on me personally. ADV SANDI MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Did you not want to know how far preparations had gone insofar as this revenge was concerned? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Did you know how far the preparations had gone anyway? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI You have said Mthimkhulu wanted to revenge - to take a revenge against the police, how far had that gone? Surely there must have been a preparation in that direction. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT (s.u.o) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PHOSA (cont) MR NIEUWOUDT MR PHOSA Finally I just want to say to you, you killed or in some other way tortured many other people after you had killed Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka. MR NIEUWOUDT I did Mr Chairperson. I had applied for those cases and they served before the Committee Mr Chairperson - the people whom I had assaulted during detention. MR PHOSA To your knowledge there cannot be many policemen who have killed as many people in their capacity as policemen as you have done? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot comment on the Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Right, we now have a change of questioners, Mr Nyoka will complete the cross-examination. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYOKA Thank you Mr Chairperson. It is not always easy or desirable to complete the construction of another skilful builder but I will do my best. MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, as I had already stated we arrived there late and the decision had been taken to do it the next evening. MR NYOKA Why did you have to wait the whole morning and afternoon to do it in the evening - almost after 12 hours? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA Did you use silencers in shooting them or you just shot them with your guns without silencers? MR NIEUWOUDT No, I used my own service pistol. CHAIRPERSON What calibre? MR NIEUWOUDT It was a .32 Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was that police issue? MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR NYOKA So, you did not care whether the sound was heard in the neighbourhood when you fired the two shots? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA But someone could have been in the neighbourhood, you could not control that. Do you agree with me therefore that you were not organised in this scheme? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA So therefore you will agree with me that it was reckless for you not to use silencers if you were organised at all in implementing this scheme? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR NYOKA I get the impression that you were called in because you were "Mr Fix It" but apparently because of the tablet issue and the silencers, you were not "Mr Fix It"? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA I said, I thought you were called because of your expertise as being "Mr Fix It" in eliminating people, apparently you were not after all because you were not organised. Do you agree with me? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR NYOKA Mr Phosa referred to Boyiswa Shlazo, do you remember an incident in 1980 at Alabama Hotel when Mr Mthimkhulu called a meeting of civil leaders trying to ensure that the school boycotts ended. Amongst the civil leaders there were Reverend Soka, Reverend Hiya and Attorney Sogoni. As a result of his efforts the school boycott ended. Do you remember that because you were watching from nearby? In 1980 at the Alabama Hotel, do you remember that incident? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA My instructions are that in 1980 such a thing did occur and you and Mr du Plessis were in the neighbourhood watching from a distance - Mr Mthimkhulu far from being a rebel- rouser, he was a peacemaker. MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson, all that I - if you refer to the Alabama Hotel - the hall there, all that I can remember that is in 1983 they had a UDF meeting there. MR NYOKA You referred to Mr Mbuyizelo Madaka, the brother of Topsi Madaka, do you know him? MR NIEUWOUDT I know Mbuyizelo Madaka. MR NYOKA Did you know him in 1976? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I know him. MR NYOKA I see that you are smiling, maybe you know what I am going to say to you. Is it not correct that you assaulted him during the first day - is it not correct that you assaulted during his first day of detention at Alabama sorry, at Sanlam building? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot remember this Mr Chairperson. MR NYOKA My instructions from him are that you assaulted him with a Mr Marx but you gave up after you did not get the information that you required. MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember this, I cannot remember assaulting him together with Mr Marx. MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Does that concluded your questioning? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot remember this. MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember how long this statement was. It is difficult to remember after 15 years to remember exactly how many pages this contained. MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA Be that as it may, did you not say to Mr du Plessis: "Please gentlemen, discuss that statement that was taken from Mr Mthimkhulu", it may have led to his being alive today? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA Do you know whether that was discussed at that 10 day meeting - the statement? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT If one looks back at this then I must agree with you, it is possibly not human. MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA My question still remains, what was it that you were interrogating him about for an entire 18 and a half hours, you have not answered that one? MR NIEUWOUDT If I have to think back, I interrogated many people but in brief it concerned his activities, the distribution of the pamphlet, where he had obtained the pamphlet, his activities etc. MR NYOKA You said the questioning was being done yourself and Captain Roelofse and that Mr Tongata and Mr Bobelo were just present. There were four of you, two were doing the interrogation two were not doing anything. Why was their presence necessary if they were not doing any questioning? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA Were they doing anything in their presence because I think that was a waste of tax payers money? MR NIEUWOUDT It could be so Mr Chairperson, but I think it was necessary. MR NYOKA Did you have - do you have any bad relation with Mr Bobelo? MR NIEUWOUDT No, I do not have a bad relationship with him. MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA Sorry, sorry, it was at Sanlam. ADV SANDI MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA Mr Bobelo further said that the wrists of Mr Mthimkhulu and his legs were swollen. Is that so - was that so? MR NIEUWOUDT It was so. MR NYOKA What caused them to be swollen - in particular the legs, what caused them to be swollen? MR NIEUWOUDT I can only speculate Mr Chairperson, it could have been because he had been standing for long during his interrogation. MR NYOKA Mr Mthimkhulu in his statement said that you assaulted him by hitting with an open hand, you applied electric shocks and you made him to stand on his feet for long periods. Strangely you said it could have been done by someone else, yet someone is directing it to you. Any comment? MR NIEUWOUDT My only comment is, I deny it strongly. He was standing while I interrogated him but I personally did not assault him. MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA Are you saying therefore he was being returned after his interrogation, to his cell. Is that what you are saying? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR NYOKA Have you read your statement - your warning statement Mr Nieuwoudt? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I did. MR NYOKA If you read it, why is there conflict now between what you saying and what you said in it because in your statement you said "At night Mr Mthimkhulu was being guarded in the office by four people, Warrant Officer Loves, Lieutenant Hattingh, Sergeant Logwe and Sergeant Nani" MR BOOYENS MR NYOKA Can you read that statement, can you read that portion? MR BOOYENS Read it yourself. ADV DE JAGER I think the 5th paragraph changed the venue. MR NYOKA Mr Chairperson, my interpreter did not include Port Elizabeth, I rely on an English translation, thank you. Can you tell me why did he have to be guarded at night, was he violent or hostile? MR NIEUWOUDT No. MR NYOKA Why did he have to be guarded then? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, we were divided into teams and I interrogated him at night and the persons who were responsible during the night for that guarded him there. MR NYOKA Were the other detainees guarded similarly as Mr Mthimkhulu at the time? MR NIEUWOUDT That was so. MR NYOKA I see that you paused, were you waiting for a correct answer? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA Was it a normal procedure to guard detainees at night? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it was so. MR NYOKA ADV SANDI Why was it necessary to guard detainees as night? To have more than one members guarding a detainee, why was it necessary? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Looking after him, do you mean taking care of him or doing anything for him? MR NIEUWOUDT That was so Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI For example? MR NIEUWOUDT I can only speculate, it he wished to avail himself of toilet facilities somebody would accompany him and if he required something there would always be two people, there had to be two people present to look after him - that is what I am saying Mr Chairperson. MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA Is it not because it was to intimidate him in the sense that Mr Kondile was there during that same year of 1981 and subsequently died, was that not the reason? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA When you were informed that Mr Mthimkhulu had laid a charge against you, how did you feel about that? Did you feel - how did you feel? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember exactly what I felt like but I immediately knew that it was rubbish that he was saying, I had not assaulted him. MR NYOKA So your feeling was dismissive, you were dismissing what he was saying - you had a feeling of dismissiveness in other words. MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA When you further heard, besides the criminal complaint that he had laid two civil claims against the police, did you not regard him as a cheeky person - this is a cheeky person? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA I put it to you that all of you were bitter and very angry that this cheeky disabled person instituted an action against big guns in the security force, what do you say about that? MR NIEUWOUDT I deny that most strongly Sir. MR NYOKA And that because of what you were doing to him, you were going to embarrass him politically? MR NIEUWOUDT I deny that most strongly Mr Chairperson. MR NYOKA If you wanted to eliminate him, why did you not do it in Port Elizabeth? Why did you have to go to Cradock - that far? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA And why was it that one person was not used to shoot both of them, why did two of you shoot both of them individually? Were you playing some shooting game of some kind? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR NYOKA When you made the application to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Before you go on, why did you shoot him? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, if I recall what happened, General van Rensburg told me to shoot the other person and I carried this out. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA If they were so troublesome Mr Nieuwoudt, and they were causing mass mobilisation, school boycotts, why did you not make a concerted effort to eliminate other COSAS activists besides them? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, I did not have the authority to make that decision. MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT I remember that case but I was not the investigating officer in that case Mr Chairperson and ...[intervention] MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI I think Mr Nieuwoudt, - you must tell me if you agree or do not agree with me, the possibility is always there that a person who becomes a Mr X gets eliminated, do you agree? MR NIEUWOUDT Could you please repeat the question Mr Chairperson? ADV SANDI MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And despite this the security branch invariably tried to persuade people they had taken into custody for one reason or another, to become an informer. Is that not so? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson. MR NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT MR NYOKA So you agree with me that it was foolish of Mr du Plessis not exhaust those avenues, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot comment on that or say yes. MR NYOKA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nieuwoudt, yesterday the questions and meaning of eliminating or "elimineering" was discussed, do you remember that? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BRINK And there was talk of various politicians who were encouraging elimination of people? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. MR BRINK And you mentioned in particular, General Magnus Malan who had made a statement that after some bomb blast that the ANC would be eliminated, as I remember your evidence? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BRINK Now apart from General Malan, are you able to tell the Committee from where or from whom did you get the impression that politicians and more particularly Nationalist Party politicians were in favour of the elimination of political activists? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BRINK Are you able to recollect the names of any of the politicians who may have given the impression that they were anxious that activists should be eliminated? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BRINK Going back to this specific incident, am I correct in saying that you in fact never received a direct order from your superiors to take part in the murder of these two men? MR NIEUWOUDT My superior was Mr du Plessis, do I understand you correctly? MR BRINK MR NIEUWOUDT I had received a command, an instruction to be involved in the abduction and elimination of Mr Madaka and Mr Mthimkhulu. MR BRINK Was that a direct order given to you? MR NIEUWOUDT I construed that as a direct instruction. MR BRINK When Mr Mthimkhulu was in detention, I take it he had no visitors apart from the district surgeon and the Magistrate? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BRINK But while he was in detention in Port Elizabeth, I take it he was not allowed any visitors save for a Magistrate and if necessary a district surgeon? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BRINK MR NIEUWOUDT MR BRINK Did you observe that he was losing his hair while he was in detention? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR BRINK Did he appear to you to be suffering from severe stomach pain while he was in detention? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, he never complained towards me if I remember correctly, of any stomach complaint or stomach ache Mr Chairperson. MR BRINK Did you observe that it might have been difficult for him to stand or walk without considerable pain while he was in detention? MR NIEUWOUDT I can only remember that his legs were swollen Mr Chairperson, because of his detention and standing for so long during the interrogation - at Sanlam building, there I observed this Mr Chairperson. MR BRINK How long was that before his release in October? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, if you can just allow me a moment I would like to refresh my memory regarding the dates in my statement. Mr Chairperson, it was during September, more or less the 11th that I observed this and he was only released on the 20th of October. MR BRINK So that was approximately five weeks before his release? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BRINK Were his legs very swollen? MR NIEUWOUDT Not that seriously but one could see that they were swollen. MR BRINK Was he lying down in his cell? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BRINK And was that also because he was not able to walk with facility? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that was my observation, I think it was of a consequence of his standing for so long. MR BRINK Did you discuss this with your colleagues? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BRINK Did you suggest that a doctor be called in to see him? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BRINK Were you not concerned about his condition? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson. MR BRINK Why, were all other detainees in the same situation? MR NIEUWOUDT MR BRINK Well is the reason - well, any detainees in your experience, did they all suffer from these ailments, swollen legs, sore feet, being unable to walk and that sort of thing? MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson. MR BRINK MR NIEUWOUDT No, Mr Chairperson, because I thought that it had been so because of his standing for so long. MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nieuwoudt, as far as this case is concerned, were you the most junior member? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MR BOOYENS And as far as the interrogation is concerned and how long it continued before these persons were murdered, was it your decision of the decision of your seniors? MR NIEUWOUDT It was the seniors who decided. MR BOOYENS Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well, I would like to clear up a number of different points with you Mr Nieuwoudt. The first is, do you know if either Captain Roelofse or Mr du Plessis also gave him tablets for his swollen feet? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot recall that Sir. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON It would go on your medical aid? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Can you remember which pharmacy you went to? MR NIEUWOUDT Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember but ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Quiet please. ADV SANDI Which pharmacy would you normally go to? You do not remember this particular one ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Did you use different pharmacies or was this the only one? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT That was so Sir. CHAIRPERSON Who got the key of the police station? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Now was he told that you were going to be occupying that place for a couple of days? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. CHAIRPERSON Surely there would have been some arrangements made for the security of the house, the police - this building? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. CHAIRPERSON What arrangements were made? MR NIEUWOUDT MR NIEUWOUDT MR NIEUWOUDT That is so Mr Chairperson, and that is why I think Mr du Plessis was there to see to it that nobody would gain access - that no person would gain access to the area. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT It was so Mr Chairperson, and I assume that General Erasmus would have informed General van Rensburg in this regard if this had happened Sir. CHAIRPERSON How would - could he have done this? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. CHAIRPERSON And finally, you referred to a docket yesterday, what docket was that? MR NIEUWOUDT It was the dossier on the explosion Sir, which had occurred at Constantia. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it is the actual docket. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT It is so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR BOOYENS That concludes the evidence on behalf of these applicants Mr Chairman. MR NYOKA MR BRINK I propose calling no witnesses Mr Chair. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR NYOKA CHAIRPERSON You do not I gather from your attitude, wish to address us now Mr Visser? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON And then you can get a copy of the address I take it? MR VISSER Yes, that would be the point, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR NYOKA CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS catch like my colleague, I may perhaps indicate that I also intend to rather file written argument to the Committee but we will obviously remain in attendance. CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON No, not from you. MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Very well, would you like to address us at this stage? ADDRESS BY MR NYOKA Thank you. None of the members of the community of Port Elizabeth in particular - not that of South Africa in general, pointed fingers for a second away from the security branch as being responsible for the disappearance of the two. To suggest otherwise will be an insult on the in - of the intelligence of the people of South Africa. The only thing that is surprising is the execution, not the fact that the police were responsible - we are not surprised at that. We would like first to start with the grounds for reaching the decision to eliminate - in no particular order. With regard to that of politicians and senior police officers using statements like: "Total onslaught" etc., and exerting pressure on the Eastern Province security branch to stabilise the security situation, on their version - without saying that it is correct, on their version I would like to say that it is unfair to the then National Party politicians to say that all they uttered in their speeches was the "total onslaught" - in public speeches. These were uttered simultaneously or counter-balanced with references to democratic - we defend a civilised Western way of life, democratic road but without Black domination, what did that mean? It means respect for human life, respect for human dignity not to take away human life or inflict harm or on violate limb, that did not mean that. It is therefore outstanding that the three applicants could conveniently isolate such statements and only concentrate on the so-called "total onslaught" speeches. The fact of the matter that the three did not do their work properly, it should even by the way these executions - these - the killings were executed, they were not properly planned. The last one of detention without trial - also with out belabouring the point, the reasons for not embarking upon this avenue are far from convincing. I do not understand how the stature of activists could be boosted by further detention without trial. And if the fact was that Mr Mthimkhulu was sickly was a consideration, police stations have go prison hospitals and they could even have taken him to private hospitals under police surveillance, that was not going to be a problem. The last one of Mr Mthimkhulu swearing revenge on the police. I find it difficult that a wheel bound disabled person could be more dangerous in his disability than before against the notoriously almighty efficient effective police force. I also find it difficult to accept that when the police force knew of the insurgence of the ANC cadres and attacks especially on State organs and police personnel, they could extraordinarily distinguish into prominence the alleged and untested revenge of a wheel bound young man. We are referred ...[inaudible] to the incident of Mr Mangasuto Buthelezi. That incident happened in 1978, why should it be of consideration four years later - to determine his death? I finally find it difficult to accept that when the wheel-bound Mr Mthimkhulu was constantly under police surveillance and later on under monitoring, he will be feared of carrying revenge as immediately it will start that he will be taken, and if you have dangerous weapons or pamphlets the minimum sentence then was five years, the police would have used that evidence and sent him straight to jail even if they were not responsible for the prosecution at least they will cause him to be charged. Instead the three should have allowed .... "Power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely" One wonders why it took an entire 10 days to discuss the entire thing when their arguments were so demonstrably weak or defective despite their vast experiences as policemen, some have got 20 years experience. It is therefore respectfully submitted that all the four applicants have failed to prove or show that their acts were politically motivated and/or there was a political motive behind. In that firstly, if they had political motives, why did they not inform the head office of the security branch or the commissioner of police of their intended steps, as these two fell within their need to know basis category - they needed to know. And their goal of coverted covertness would still have been applicable and achieved if they had spoken to the head of security or the commissioner of police, it would still be under the umbrella of covertness Perhaps they would have got more sensible or sensical advices like: "Gentlemen, you say you have a problem, before you eliminate how about trying a state of emergency for 1982" which was declared in 1985? This could have been sorted out and it was a humanitarian measure. Or they could have obtained the advice of banishment, taking Mr Mthimkhulu to a remote area like it was done to Mrs Mandela who was taken to Brandfort. If they applied a need to know basis and they were trying to achieve a political motive, why did they involve a junior like Mr Nieuwoudt who was only known to Mr du Plessis and he was not known to Mr Erasmus closely or to Mr van Rensburg? Furthermore Mr Mthimkhulu did not end there, he sought the assistance of human rights organisation like Black Sash and the opposition political party PFP, giving prominence to his disability and to his fight for human rights. The fact that during the 10 - the plus minus 10 days of discussion between Messrs Erasmus, van Rensburg and du Plessis, no mention of such steps like the civil claims, the poisoning allegations and the magisterial enquiry - especially after so much media publicity, is breathtakingly astounding and confirms out view to the say the very least. To show further that this was a purely criminal act with a criminal motive, why was it that none of the other COSAS activists who were responsible for mobilisation and unrest were not eliminated - why was it? Why single only two and Mr Madaka was just unfortunate being a friend of Mr Mthimkhulu? CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK No thank you. ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly assist me with one problem that has arisen during the discussions, what would you say does the word: "eliminate" - referring to a particular person, mean? MR NYOKA "Referring to a particular person" ADV DE JAGER Yes. If I would say: "Eliminate Mr X" or "Eliminate a person", what would I convey? MR NYOKA Not being an Afrikaner but understanding English, I would say that it means: "Kill that person". ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI Do you agree Mr Nyoka with that? MR NYOKA I agree. ADV SANDI MR NYOKA Yes, there - that is so, but what I said was that those speeches were isolated deliberately, they were - they must be viewed in the totality. Where the Government will say that: "We are going to defend our nation, we are against Black domination", we believe in civilised - in a civilised western way. Mr Nieuwoudt read books on politics, he should have known that the Government meant that the opposition must be crushed. Nowhere in their speeches did they say: "Eliminate individuals", otherwise they would have been taken to task. CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS