amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS PORT ELIZABETH https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54805&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/cradock2.htm MR J VAN ZYL: ...for Mr Winter, and I cannot say why the expression "Veiligheids Gemeenskap" is used. MR BIZOS: Why do you say that the Security Police in Cradock would not have supported this? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: I beg your pardon? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I will accept it. MR BIZOS: If that is so, and if Mr Winter told the truth then you as the Chief Investigator on the question of life and death relating to Mr Goniwe, remained particularly ignorant of the situation in Cradock. MR J VAN ZYL: No, if I was not informed of this matter, it means that I was not informed, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Well, did you ask Mr or Major Winter as to whether Mr Goniwe should live or die? MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: I beg your pardon? MR J VAN ZYL: No. MR BIZOS: Did you ask him whether he was one of the top candidates to be dealt with in order to restore what you called "law and order" in the Eastern Cape? MR J VAN ZYL: I personally did not ask him Mr Chairman. He arrived sometime in 1985 and we had access to information much bigger than he had. I did not consult him, no. MR BIZOS: When did you speak to Major Winter in 1985? MR J VAN ZYL: I must have spoken to him many times. MR BIZOS: Many times. Including the period when you were involved in this investigation? MR J VAN ZYL: It is very possible, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Very possible? MR J VAN ZYL: I probably did. MR BIZOS: You probably did? Did you discuss with him what this alleged super agitator from Oudtshoorn was doing in Cradock? MR J VAN ZYL: That I cannot remember, Mr Chairman, if I did. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I accept that. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Winter only arrived in Cradock sometime in 1985 Mr Chairman. I said yesterday that it was very possible that Mr Winter had little knowledge of Mr Mhlawuli. But Mr Winter never expressed to me his recommendation or that he was for the re-appointment of Mr Goniwe. MR BIZOS: The question was actually whether you had ever asked him what Mr Mhlawuli was doing in Cradock. MR BOOYENS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I can just enter at this stage. It does not say anything about I did not know anything about him. Exhibit "B" Mr Chairman, in the first paragraph. MR BIZOS: MR BOOYENS: MR BIZOS: I submit that in the context, the objection is not well founded. There are three categories which the witness refers to: "I knew Matthew Goniwe personally. I knew him well. I was aware of Ford Calata and Sparrow Mkhonto. I did not know Sicelo Mhlawuli at all." In regard to the two distinguishing factors between the first and the second, I submit that the third is quite clear that he did not know him and he did not know anything about him, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Do you still persist with your objection? MR BOOYENS: I will leave it in your hands, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember that I asked him Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Yes, and if his affidavit is to be believed, he had never heard of him; he knew nothing about him. Have you any comment on that? MR J VAN ZYL: No. He never expressed the fact to me afterwards that he did not know Mr Mhlawuli, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, we would ask to hand in the affidavit of Petrus Johannes Coetzee, the Commissioner of Police at that time, as the next exhibit "J", and his report to the Minister, marked "K", in relation to the re-appointment of Mr Goniwe. At the time that General Coetzee made this affidavit on 31st August 1992, he was the Commissioner of Police, as exhibit "J" makes it clear. He was head of the Security Police whilst the Minister was Mr Le Grange. He says that he signed the next document, which is now exhibit "K": You accept that? That this is the document of the then head of the Security Police? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: And do you accept the memorandum, exhibit "K", where General Coetzee gives what the information was in relation to Mr Goniwe. Would you like an opportunity to just glance at it? Now, there are two aspects in this report. First of all there is no suggestion in this report that Mr Goniwe was involved in violent actions, nor is there anything in this memorandum which makes him the danger that you say he was on your information. Do you agree with that? MR J VAN ZYL: No, not all. Mr Chairman, in paragraph 8 it is mentioned that: "It is significant that most of these towns protest actions were launched and often accompanied by violence which led to police action." This is put very softly at the time. We had a lot of information about the activities that happened after each visit of Mr Goniwe to these country areas. There was a lot of information about the "recruitment of people to leave the country and that dealt or referred to Mr Goniwe, he was responsible for this recruitment. He and the people closest to him". I do not know why this was not mentioned in this memorandum. MR BIZOS: MR BOOYENS: MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I glanced through it quickly. That is why I referred you to the excerpt in paragraph 8, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I did not say that. MR BIZOS: I beg your pardon? MR J VAN ZYL: I never said he was involved in sabotage, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Zyl, you have painted a picture of a person who was responsible for much of the problems in the Eastern Cape and that was the basis for the decision to killing. MR J VAN ZYL: Not in what I have seen, Mr Chairman, except for what I have pointed out. CHAIRPERSON: Well, I am going to offer you an opportunity to read the document. How long do you think you will take? MR J VAN ZYL: Five minutes. CHAIRPERSON: Can we then adjourn for that period. ADJOURNS. MR BIZOS: Mr Van Zyl, have you had an opportunity of studying the document, exhibit "K". MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Do you agree that what the Commissioner says in that report is substantially different to the impression that you tried to give the Committee or the information that you had about Mr Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: I would say that this is a watered down version of the information that we had at our disposal, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Why should the Commissioner of Police want to "water down" information that you had, if it was put before him? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot answer that. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot say, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Yes. Now there are just one or two aspects that I want to put to you. Would you agree that it was the pride of Cradock that not a single window pane of their schools was damaged due to the influence of Mr Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember the exact conditions at the different schools in the area... MR BIZOS: Are you able to deny what I have put to you? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember specifically anything to the contrary, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Do you agree that on the information available to the Commissioner, no offence was committed by Mr Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: No offence that we could charge him for, according to our information Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Do you agree that no chargeable offence could be brought against Mr Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: That happened in a lot of towns and townships and villages where Mr Goniwe... MR BIZOS: Street committees and community courts are one thing. What I am asking you is whether there were any Kangaroo courts, in which people were tried in Cradock, or whether there were any killings in Cradock, or any serious assaults against anybody in Cradock or any other of the gruesome things that you describe in your application as the state of affairs in Port Elizabeth. Was any of that taking place in Cradock or not? MR J VAN ZYL: I was personally at Cradock when there was unrest and stone throwing at various occasions, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Stone throwing at who? MR J VAN ZYL: At the police. MR BIZOS: At the police, by youngsters. By school children? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR BIZOS: Now, do you know of it being made public in a newspaper article that Mr Goniwe himself prevented youngsters from actually throwing stones at the police on a specific occasion and that he was the person who took the initiative to do that? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember if I knew about it. CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, if I understand you correctly, this "G Plan" , the author of which was Mr Goniwe himself, was there any rate of success in this plan? MR J VAN ZYL: Very much so, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Would that not be grounds enough, or sufficient grounds, to charge him? For a crime? MR J VAN ZYL: If there was anybody that would give evidence against him at the time, we would have certainly done that. CHAIRPERSON: MR J VAN ZYL: In a court of law is unfortunately different at a time like that Mr Chairman. The amount of intimidation at that time was incredible. And I investigated even murder cases in Port Elizabeth at the time where in the beginning there were a lot of witnesses and in the end they would just not give evidence. And I think everybody can remember that. MR BIZOS: Yes, it was possible of course to obtain statements at Sanlam, under torture, was it not. MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Let me confine myself to Cradock. MR J VAN ZYL: I never tortured anybody or got a statement through torture, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I said I never tortured anybody or got a statement through torture like you are insinuating, Sir. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I have no knowledge of that. MR BIZOS: You have no knowledge of that. MR J VAN ZYL: If the information had been sent up from the Divisional Headquarters to Pretoria, he would have been in possession of that information, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Was there any reason to keep it away from the Commissioner that was asked to comment on this? MR J VAN ZYL: Not that I know of, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Now, in relation to the information available about his re-instatement, there will be evidence that it was generally known in Cradock and elsewhere that a decision was taken to re-instate him and that he expected to be the principal of the school, when schools opened in the middle of the year. Did you know about that - that it was generally known? MR J VAN ZYL: No, I cannot remember that. MR BIZOS: May we hand in a portion of a transcript recorded at Cradock on 24th June 1985, Mr Chairman, as exhibit "L". Will you please look at page 17, the last page of that statement. This comes as a report of the person that was listening to the telephone of Mr Goniwe, Mr Chairman and was made public at the inquest before Judge Zietsman. Please look at the last page. You see there the 4th line. "Molly: Now Matthew, tell me did you receive any letter in connection with your appointment? Matthew: No, not as yet, but it is probably on the way. Molly: I would like to be part of your celebration. Matthew: Okay. (And they laugh)." MR J VAN ZYL: That is if we accept that they are serious in this conversation, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: We know that there was a recommendation on 12th June, we know that the Commissioner of Police recommended it, we know that the Security Council Secretariat recommended it and you say that this might be a joke. MR J VAN ZYL: They are laughing. MR BIZOS: I suggest to you that the only joke about it is that you should think about it being a joke. MR J VAN ZYL: Not at all. They are laughing at the end. MR BIZOS: Yes, they are laughing because of the party that was going to take place. Are you saying that this is not evidence that Molly Blackburn knew about his re-appointment? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: So, what is the idea of trying to dismiss it as a joke? MR J VAN ZYL: CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Zyl, the question is simple. Around the 25th, that was before Mr Goniwe was killed, Molly Blackburn knew of his re-appointment. The question from Mr Bizos is how is it that Molly Blackburn could have know about it and not you? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember if I knew. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Now, are you saying to the Committee that it was possible that you proceeded with the murder of Goniwe well knowing that there was a recommendation from the highest authority that he should be appointed as principal at the Cradock school? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, there were daily discussions of all these activities. It is very possible that this re-appointment was discussed as well. If there was an instruction to stop with the plans to carry out this operation, I would expect that to have come from my superiors. I cannot remember if we discussed it, I am speculating. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: What is the question Mr Chairman? MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: As I have said Mr Chairman, this was discussed everyday. It was, I cannot remember whether his re-appointment was discussed and perhaps I should have enquired. I cannot remember if I even did that. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Had you not heard that the Regional Commissioner of Education had gone to Cradock in order to meet Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember knowing of that. MR BIZOS: How could these things have passed by the person who had been given this awesome responsibility of murdering Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: People may be excused for not remembering what happened in humdrum events that we perform as a matter of course. Surely matters of life and death you would have remembered if you wanted to speak the truth, Mr van Zyl? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: This is not finer detail, is it Mr van Zyl? It goes to matters of life and death. There may of course - have you got any answer? MR J VAN ZYL: I think it is - it should be considered as finer details, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: I see. Finer details. MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I was still not the last person to decide whether this operation should carry on or not. There is no way that I could say "over my dead body" would this have happened. I was working on instructions as well. MR BIZOS: Would you have carried out those instructions if you knew that there was a recommendation to re-appoint Mr Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: I am asking you hypothetically in order to test your state of mind. Would you have carried out the instruction to kill Goniwe if you knew that there was a recommendation that he should be re-appointed? MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: What is possible? MR J VAN ZYL: That I would have done it. I cannot answer for what I would have done then, but I would think that it was possible that we would have carried it out if the instruction was to continue with the operation. MR BIZOS: The very least you ought to have done, I would suggest, as the person charged with doing the actual killing, to say, "Hey, there appears to be a contradiction here. One arm of the State says re-appoint him as principal, and a Colonel in Port Elizabeth and his subordinates told me to kill him. I want clarity before I become a murderer. Whether this is authorised by the State by whom I am employed, because the State appears to be talking with more than one voice". MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Irrespective of what knowledge you might have had that the Commissioner of Police had recommended that he should merely be restricted at home during the night hours, but allowed to teach and the Secretariat of the Security Council had recommended that he should go back to school and only matters covered by the regulations of the Education Department were to apply to him. You would still have done it? MR J VAN ZYL: I never knew about the memorandum that the Commissioner drew up. CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, if there was a conflict of instructions as between the Commissioner or Minister and your immediate superiors, whose instructions would you follow? MR J VAN ZYL: If I knew about the conflict, Mr Chairman, I would definitely have not carried out the operation. CHAIRPERSON: Forget about the actual instruction. Whose instruction would you respect? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I can also not imagine that if there was a conflict between the Commissioner of Police and Colonel Snyman, Colonel Snyman or my superiors, would have carried out an instruction in conflict with his wishes or orders. MR BIZOS: As early as the 6th June, according to exhibit "G", the affidavit of Geldenhuys "Rondom Meneer Goniwe het daar a potensiele belange botsing ontstaan tussen die Departement van Onderwys en Opleiding aan die eenkant, en die veiligheids gemeenskap aan die ander kant". MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: The question was, why and by whom, and why would this be kept a secret from you? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Well, yes he uses - but we know what the clash was from the rest of the document. Whether he should be re-appointed or not. MR J VAN ZYL: I was not aware of any clash at the time between the authorities, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Yes. Bear with me for one moment please, Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, while my learned friend is looking for that document, and not in order to interrupt his train of thought. The Geldenhuys statement we have got has a page missing. We have got up to paragraph 8 which runs partial and then on page 2 and then paragraph 4. CHAIRPERSON: MR BOOYENS: MR BIZOS: You recall that I asked you what discussions there were about the possibility of putting Mr Goniwe to death, and you said that there were such discussions but you could not remember when or where or precisely whether they were during 1984 or 1985. Do you recall that? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Now, did you ever get any suggestion coming from Pretoria Head Office that they were looking into the question of the elimination of Mr Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember that. I have seen this statement from Mr van Jaarsveld in which he is not sure whether it was me that he had spoken to. I do not recall such a person or such a meeting or driving to Cradock with him. It looks a bit vague to me, and if I had remembered it, I would have definitely mentioned it because it cannot change anything to my case, as far as I can remember. I really cannot remember this incident. MR BIZOS: But it also tends to show a number of things. MR J VAN ZYL: There is a remote possibility, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Although remote, there is a possibility? May I just have a word with Counsel for the State? That talk about putting Goniwe to death was not a matter which started when you were called in by your superior officer Van Rensburg. There was talk about it before. MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Yes, the planning of a specific operation. MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: But there were suggestions before, and once you concede the possibility, you do not exclude the possibility that the orders came from above. From somebody sent from head office down here? MR J VAN ZYL: That is possible, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: And although no date is mentioned in this document, there is an event of the smashing of the windscreen of a person named - this Janet Cherry. And she has reason to remember the date well. Is it possible that this suggestion was made as early as March 1984? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember when it was Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: But you would not exclude the possibility that what you call talk or loose talk about the killing of Mr Goniwe was as early as March 1984. MR J VAN ZYL: That is possible. MR BIZOS: And you cannot possibly under oath deny the statement of Mr van Jaarsveld as to what happened. That he was down here for this purpose. MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Where were you in March 1984? MR J VAN ZYL: I was in Port Elizabeth Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: And when did Colonel Erasmus...? MR J VAN ZYL: Leave? In December 1983, Mr Chairman. I said that yesterday. It is very confusing to me and if I could remember it, I would have said so. MR BIZOS: Yes. But now, when Colonel Erasmus left, did he come back from time to time? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember that he came back even once to Port Elizabeth, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: You see your inability to remember whether it happened or not suggests to me that the discussion about killing Goniwe was so common place and so often discussed that that is why you cannot be certain as to whether this happened or not. MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, this person is much more adamant that he knew Colonel Erasmus. As he said here, he was the commander of the Port Elizabeth Security Branch. Their offices were in Strand Street, Port Elizabeth. Colonel Erasmus was aware of the purpose of our visit. He can remember that, but he cannot remember that he actually met me. He suspects that it was one Sakkie van Zyl, and I cannot remember that. That I met him. I think it is much more likely that he is confusing me, than he is confusing Colonel Erasmus. It would seem to me. MR BIZOS: But there was talk at that time about the elimination of Goniwe. MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember speaking to a person like this about this, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MS R PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may interject at this point. Gerrit Erasmus is being represented by Wagenaar, Muller & Du Plessis. I have been sent a letter from their offices which may shed some light on the issue. Beg leave to hand up the letter as-where are we now - exhibit "M". MR BIZOS: "M" yes. Well, we will have regard to this letter. Mr van Zyl, I want to ask you about the personal relationships. Colonel Snyman remained a Colonel in Port Elizabeth, but Van Rensburg rose to what rank? MR J VAN ZYL: Major General. MR BIZOS: And Du Plessis raised to what rank? MR J VAN ZYL: Colonel, full Colonel. MR BIZOS: In relation to the exercise of real power and authority in 1985, who really called the shots in Port Elizabeth? Snyman or Van Rensburg? MR J VAN ZYL: Colonel Snyman was the Divisional Commander of the Division, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: The question was who really called the shots? MR J VAN ZYL: In what respect? MR BIZOS: Who was the pro-active person, the dominant person in the Security Police in Port Elizabeth? Snyman or Van Rensburg? MR J VAN ZYL: I am not sure if I follow you, Mr Chairman. Colonel Snyman was the senior, Colonel Van Rensburg was a Lieutenant Colonel at that time, and he became a Colonel I think during the time that I was here. ADV D POTGIETER: I think, Mr van Zyl, the question is, if you want to put it that way, who was the "big boss". MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Snyman, without a doubt. MR BIZOS: Yes, that was on paper. But who really was the dominant person in the branch? MR J VAN ZYL: Who took the strongest lead, Mr Chairman? MR BIZOS: Yes. MR J VAN ZYL: Colonel Van Rensburg was a different type of person to Colonel Snyman, who was as I said yesterday a soft spoken, soft hearted person who was good with administration and Colonel Van Rensburg, I would say, was probably the one with more field experience. MR BIZOS: And was the question of elimination of Goniwe a matter of paperwork or field experience? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: I though that you would have got the idea a long time ago Mr van Zyl. MR J VAN ZYL: Not to my knowledge. Colonel Du Plessis was in charge of the section where I worked, and he was much more of a leader of us in the field than Colonel Van Rensburg was, who was not active in that regard at all. But Colonel Van Rensburg referred us to Colonel Snyman in this matter. MR BIZOS: As a matter of formality, after he had given you an order to put the plan into operation? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot answer for him, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Zyl, do I understand you correctly, are you suggesting that Mr du Plessis was more acquainted with the field than Mr van Rensburg. MR J VAN ZYL: Not more acquainted, but due to his lower rank and his activities, he was more involved, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Would you say that he was more assertive than the rest? MR J VAN ZYL: No, I would not say that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: You, in your application, speak of the GBS in a number of places and the pressure that it was putting on you in order to find a solution to the problem. Who told you of the pressure at the GBS? MR J VAN ZYL: As far as I can recall that was either Major Du Plessis at various occasions from Colonel Snyman, and Colonel Snyman himself at Officers Meetings. MR BIZOS: And Van Rensburg? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall that he referred to the GBS. MR BIZOS: What were you told about the pressures of the GBS? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, this was a general feeling that was conveyed that Colonel Snyman was actually under pressure from the GBS as head of the Security Police to do something constructive and to find a solution, although the politicians did not offer any solutions at that time. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I have subsequently heard of that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Yes. Now what about the pressure from the army personnel and the Chairman of the GBS, Mr van der Westhuizen? MR J VAN ZYL: I have no personal knowledge of that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Was it not reported to you? MR J VAN ZYL: Not in person. Not that it was him in person that put the pressure on. MR BIZOS: Had you not heard that an ultimatum had been given to him as Chairman of the GBS that unless things were dealt with in the Eastern Province, he would lose his job? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall that I heard anything like that at the time, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Well, you speak about pressure. What pressure was there? MR J VAN ZYL: It was probably the same pressure that was put on us, which was just a pressure that we had to find solutions as well, and get information about the situation, but it was out of our hands. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Had it come to your notice that the Security Council consisting of army personnel, security personnel, police personnel.... MR BOSMAN: MR BIZOS: Yes, of course. MR BOSMAN: Mr van Zyl, the JMC was representative of a number of state departments and interested elements? MR J VAN ZYL: That is how I remember it. ADV G BOSMAN: And now the question is, if someone in the JMC exerted pressure, the total JMC could not have exerted the pressure. What was the driving force behind the JMC? Who brought this about? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, I do not have very good knowledge of the composition of the JMC at that stage. I do not know precisely who they all were, my JMC knowledge was based upon that which I heard from senior officers. I think that Colonel Van Rensburg or Snyman are in a better position to say who they regarded as the driving force within the JMC. I am really not certain, Mr Chairperson. MR BOSMAN: May I just ask, from who in the JMC do you think the pressure was exerted? MR J VAN ZYL: I would say from the institutions which dealt more security, or who were at the head of things regarding security. MR BIZOS: Did it come to your notice at any time that the head of the army had redefined murder as excluding any killing of any of the enemies of the State by unconventional means provided it did not boomerang on the State? MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman, I have no knowledge of that. MR BIZOS: Well, your description of the killings here fit into that exclusion from murder by the head of the army. Was this killing by unconventional means? Leaving aside your mistake with the gun. MR J VAN ZYL: Yes Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: And, was the manner in which it was done calculated that there should not be any comeback to the State? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: And the third requirement by the head of the army was that it should not put in danger the lives of innocent civilians. That is, you know, like blowing up places where civilians would be around and things like that. It also, if we leave Mr Mhlawuli out of the equation, it also complied with that requirement. MR J VAN ZYL: Yes Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Is that yet another one of those coincidences, or is the Committee entitled to say that the coincidence is too close to be ignored that this was an army/police operation. MR J VAN ZYL: I really do not know about the coincidences, Mr Chairman, and I personally have no knowledge of the Defence Force involvement. MR BIZOS: Except the signal, of course. MR J VAN ZYL: That I learnt about much later, but that is not to say that it was connected to this incident. I do not know. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Would you now regard the killing as dirty work? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: It may be a convenient stage.... CHAIRPERSON: HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: (cont) Our learned friend correctly pointed out that there were annexures to exhibit "K". We have them both. May I suggest that we mark them "K(i)" and "K(ii)" and ask for leave to hand them in? Could you please have a look at the end of Annexure "A" with the big numbers 103 and 104 in "K(i)". This is where there is a recommendation during 1984 that Mr Matthew Goniwe, Mr Ford Calata, Mr Mbulelo Goniwe and Mr Madoda Jacobs be restricted. MR BOOYENS: My apologies. My learned friend just mind repeating his question. The witness had difficulty in finding what you were referring to Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: You will see that the associates or handlangers are mentioned there as Matthew Goniwe, Ford Calata, Mbulelo Goniwe and Madoda Fezile Jacobs. You see that the first three names there correspond with the three in the signal of the 7th June 1985. Do you agree with that? MR J VAN ZYL: I see that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: Excuse me Mr Chairman. Where does this memor and can you tell us by whom it was sent? M R BIZOS: Now, do you agree with that? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, I see that Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: Could you tell us when it was dated please, Mr Chairman? MR BIZOS: Now all the "dangerous revolutionary activity" of Mr Goniwe is set out in this document. The first one is that the American Ambassador from Pretoria called on him. You see that? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Yes. And Mrs Sheena Duncan of the Black Sash, who established the Black Sash Advice Office in Cradock, that was also noted as one of his activities. And then it goes on that he went to Somerset East, whilst the South Eastern Youth Congress was formed, and so it goes on. Nowhere, right up to the 16th June is the dangerous revolutionary Mhlawuli mentioned. Do you agree? MR J VAN ZYL: I see that Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Do you still persist in the pretence that you considered Mhlawuli one of the "dangerous" people associating with Mr Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: It is not a pretence, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: I beg your pardon? MR J VAN ZYL: It was not a pretence, Mr Chairman. We... MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I have never seen this document before. I cannot tell you who drew it up and on what grounds. MR BIZOS: I know that you have not seen it, but do you agree that it is a continuos document showing the continuos monitoring of Mr Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: It seems to be a summing up of the activities that were reported, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot give you an explanation for that. MR BIZOS: And this was an important document because obviously it was sent as a summary to the Commissioner of Police for the purposes of recommending to the Security Secretariat whether or not Mr Goniwe was to be re-instated into his job or not. MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot comment on who sent him this information for the purpose of his detention, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: No, but what does it look like? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: This is a document which was put before the Geldenhuys Committee and comes from the exhibits in the inquest held by Judge Zietsman. Please have a look at the second paragraph. "At request of the Security Community and for security reasons, he on 26th November 1983, was notified by telegram that as from 1st January 1984, he would be transferred to Graaff Reinet as a teacher in mathematics and science." Will you accept from me that the evidence, that this comes from an affidavit, the person who made it told the court that the words "veiligheids gemeenskap" which was lightly deleted, was deliberately deleted, although the person who made the statement stood by this document as it appeared without the line across it. Will you accept that please? Now do you agree that Goniwe was transferred at the instance of the "veiligheids gemeenskap"? MR J VAN ZYL: It happened before I arrived in Port Elizabeth, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Did you discuss it with your colleagues? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: And that - it goes on to say that Goniwe saw it as a punishment. Do you agree with that? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: And the last paragraph - that he had the fullest support of the community, of the school committee and of the students in Cradock. MR J VAN ZYL: Yes it would seem so and it seemed like that right through the time that I knew of him. MR BIZOS: Yes. Now you were in "Koevoet", Mr van Zyl. And whose decision was it to transfer you to the Eastern Province? MR J VAN ZYL: It was at my own request, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: And to go into the Security Police? MR J VAN ZYL: I had been in the Security Police before and "Koevoet" was regarded as a unit in the Security Police. MR BIZOS: Yes. And your colleague, Mr Eric Winter, was also in "Koevoet", who had seen service with you at Ovambuland? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Who else that had been in "Koevoet" was sent to the Eastern Province during 1984 or 1985? MR J VAN ZYL: There were one or two junior members, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Please remind us of their names. MR J VAN ZYL: No, Lieutenant Pickard went to "Koevoet" from Port Elizabeth. There was a Constable or a Sergeant Loots that was transferred also in 1984 to Port Elizabeth. MR BIZOS: Is that also an applicant in this case? MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Another Loots? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: And who else? MR J VAN ZYL: No, the applicant in this case is Lotz. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: That is all that I can remember, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Now, what special qualities did "Koevoet" have that attracted you and made you suitable for transfer to the Eastern Cape in 1984/85? MR J VAN ZYL: What special qualities did "Koevoet" have? MR BIZOS: Well, what special qualities did you possess which found favour with people to transfer you to "Koevoet" and found favour to transfer you to the Eastern Cape in 1984/85? MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: Well, why did you want to come to Port Elizabeth? MR J VAN ZYL: Because I had already spent a number of years in Ovamboland, Mr Chairman and I just wanted to continue my career at the Security Branch, somewhere in the country. ADV D POTGIETER: Why Port Elizabeth, why not elsewhere? MR J VAN ZYL: He was affirmative, but during the time that I was waiting to be transferred here, he also got transferred away from here. MR BIZOS: Were you working in close association with Mr Eric Winter whilst you were in "Koevoet"? MR J VAN ZYL: As close as everybody at unit was, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Were you in the same unit? MR J VAN ZYL: There is only one unit, and that is "Koevoet". I had a team and at one stage Mr Winter had a team as well, although he was regarded as the investigations officer who handled general intelligence at the unit. MR BIZOS: Did you become good friends whilst you were operating in Ovambuland in "Koevoet"? MR J VAN ZYL: Fairly good friends, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Was "Koevoet" considered an unconventional unit? MR J VAN ZYL: Necessarily so, we were fighting a very unconventional war, Mr Chairman, and all units that were involved in counter insurgency on that level could be called unconventional, I suppose. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: Not so.... MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I am not so sure about the relevance. I concede whether "Koevoet" was unconventional, but the moment we get to what happens at "Koevoet", I am beginning to fail to see the relevance of that. CHAIRPERSON: Well, without wanting to predict what Mr Bizos is intending to do, perhaps I am going to invite him to argue the point. MR BIZOS: Well, let me try and give you a few more details from which the drift of my questioning may become more relevant, Mr van Zyl. Was Sergeant Hough and Chris Labuschagne, were they also in "Koevoet". MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: H-o-u-g-h. MR J VAN ZYL: Not that I can remember. MR BIZOS: And Chris Labuschagne? MR J VAN ZYL: I do not remember him Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: And do you know whether together with Eric Winter they were transferred to Cradock? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, there was somebody else that was transferred to Cradock, not Hough or Labuschagne. From the unit. MR BIZOS: Who was that? MR J VAN ZYL: There was another "Koevoet" member at Cradock called Lourens, George Lourens. MR BIZOS: Yes. Now out of all the people that there were in Port Elizabeth, why were you chosen to lead this execution of this plan of unconventional killing? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Has it occurred to you that with you from "Koevoet" in Port Elizabeth and Mr Winter from "Koevoet" in Cradock, may have been a way of augmenting the strength of the Security Police here under the soft hearted Mr Snyman? MR J VAN ZYL: No, I have not thought of that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Yes. Mr van Zyl, if anyone of the applicants in this case said to the relatives or the victims that there were at this stage three groups on the lookout to kill Goniwe. Your group.... MR J VAN ZYL: Which stage is that Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS: This is June, from June 7th to June 27th. Your group, an army group and the Goniwe group. And it was said by one of your fellow applicants that you were lucky on the 27th because your plan worked on that day, whilst the others were trying to do the same thing. What comment would you have to make on that statement? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: And on the question of your authority, and the reason why you did this. The person that you say gave you authority may be interpreted as having left it in your discretion as to whether it was in the best interests of South Africa or not. Can you please tell us if that is so interpreted, how you would have served (in your view) the interests of South Africa by murdering four people. MR J VAN ZYL: It was no question of discretion. MR BIZOS: Yes. Now as far as your authority.... CHAIRPERSON: Well answer this then. How did you think by killing these four gentlemen it would serve the interests of the Republic of South Africa? MR J VAN ZYL: Along with the instructions that I received, Mr Chairman, I was convinced at the time, at the time, that the elimination of these people would bring about stability in the area. It was not my decision, but I agreed with it. MR BIZOS: In which area? MR J VAN ZYL: In the areas that Mr Goniwe, especially, were influential in. MR BIZOS: And where was that? MR J VAN ZYL: It was the whole of the Eastern Cape, including some regions in the Karoo, towards the South Western Districts and the Northern Border areas as well, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: If the information was - before you was only that which appears in the documents which were at the disposal of the Commissioner of Police, would you agree that it was not sufficient to kill people for that sort of activity? MR J VAN ZYL: If the information at our disposal at the time were only the information that we had seen here today and yesterday, it would not have even been an issue in the Security Police, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Even though the Security Police felt it duty bound to report it, like a visit by the Ambassador and things like that and other matters - helping to form civic organisations. All those things that are listed by the Commissioner would not have been grounds for killing Mr Goniwe or any of the others. MR J VAN ZYL: Not that was listed here as such, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Yes, well you see, because we are going to suggest to you that Mr Goniwe was not doing anything else, I am going to suggest to you that there was ill-will and malice in your action, possibly as a result - not only you personally but the others, that having suggested his dismissal from his job, that he would have been viewed as a victor over you by being reinstated, and you were going to stop it. MR J VAN ZYL: That is totally untrue, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: It does correspond, however, does it not with the "nooit, ooit, ooit weer" statement in the document of the 23rd May, and that which was the Security Police view at the time, and that being overridden by higher authority. The Secretariat of the Security Council. MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, was that a Security Police document or a.... MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Exhibit "C", Mr Chairman. MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, this is not a Security Police document. This is a GBS document. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: No, I could never say that, but you had said Sir that the Security Police had said "nooit, ooit, ooit weer".... MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: And having regard to the savage manner in which these murders were committed would be additional evidence, would it not, that you really hated these people, Mr.... MR J VAN ZYL: Not at all, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: No. MR BIZOS: You stood by whilst they were stabbed in a cumulative number of sixty-three times. MR J VAN ZYL: It does not mean that I like it, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Thank you. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS ADV D POTGIETER: Mr van Zyl, do you have exhibit "J"? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairperson. ADV D POTGIETER: Can you please look at paragraph 9. MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, I have it here Chairperson. ADV D POTGIETER: MR J VAN ZYL: That is highly possible, Mr Chairperson. ADV D POTGIETER: So, in other words, these exhibits "K(i)" and "K(ii)" actually originate from the Security Police. MR J VAN ZYL: Not as such. The content of the information probably comes from Port Elizabeth on the basis of other information acquired from the Port Elizabeth branch. ADV D POTGIETER: Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS R PATEL: Thank you Mr van Zyl. If I can refer you to page 48 of the bundle, it is your application in fact. To paragraph 10. In there you have mentioned that you gave both Eric Taylor and Sergeant Lotz instructions to monitor the deceased in this matter. Could you perhaps elaborate, what stage or when specifically were these instructions given. MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, this was shortly after I originally spoke to Colonel van Rensburg and after I had spoken to Major Du Plessis. Shortly after the first instructions, three weeks or so, two or three weeks before the incident. MS R PATEL: So that would have been about three weeks before? MR J VAN ZYL: More or less, Mr Chairman. MS R PATEL: Two to three weeks before. What was the import of the instruction. What specifically did you want to know? MR J VAN ZYL: I wanted to know exactly where these activists were going, what they were doing, who they were dealing with and who were the people that were being used as their helpers or their Lieutenants in the different regions. MS R PATEL: Was it explained to Mr Taylor and Mr Lotz what the purpose of the information was that you required? MR J VAN ZYL Mr Chairman as far as I can recall I spoke to them at that time about this and about what the purpose was, yes. MS R PATEL: So they would have known that there was a plan that you would have wanted to put into operation and the information was required for that specific purpose? MR J VAN ZYL Yes Mr Chairman. MS R PATEL: Right. Can you perhaps then explain why Mr Lotz in his application makes no mention of these instructions that you would have given to him? If I can refer you to page 13 of the bundle. MR J VAN ZYL: MS R PATEL: Mr Lotz in fact goes further and he says quite clearly that he was informed only on the 27th as to what the purpose of the operation would be. Surely Mr van Zyl, if this was explained to him three weeks before and that if he was, as you say, actively involved in the intelligence gathering, there would have been no need at all for you to explain on that day why his services were required. MR J VAN ZYL: It is, as far as I am concerned, not quite right and Mr Lotz I think himself could explain why he wrote it like that, Mr Chairman. MS R PATEL: So are you saying then that Mr Lotz is lying? MR J VAN ZYL: No. I am saying that the way that he put it, that I only informed him on the day of the 27th is not correct, Mr Chairman. MS R PATEL: Does one then infer from that, Mr van Zyl, that either you are lying or he is lying? MR J VAN ZYL: I think Mr Lotz means it in a different context, Mr Chairman. I am definitely not lying about when I told him. MS R PATEL: What different context would that be, Mr van Zyl? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I think Mr Lotz will be able to tell you whether this was in fact only mentioned to him on the 27th for the first time, and why he wrote it like this in his application. CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is: what would be your comment if Mr Lotz comes to confirm his statement? MR J VAN ZYL: I am not lying, Mr Chairman. MS R PATEL: Then just one further aspect. Are you with me Mr van Zyl? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MS R PATEL: All right. He also says further down that "Various options were discussed". Surely, if the decision was taken beforehand as to what the fate of the deceased would be and that the purpose in going to Mr van Zyl was merely to inform him, or to put the case before him, different options would not have been discussed? MR J VAN ZYL: I think different options were discussed on an ongoing basis, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting, Mr van Zyl, that you and Mr du Plessis went to Colonel Snyman on various occasions to discuss the future of Mr Goniwe and his colleagues? MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman. Not as far as this operation was concerned. As I said before, different options was discussed at different other meetings during the course of the preceding months and I just cannot remember on the day that Major du Plessis and myself went to Colonel Snyman that we were actually discussing different options in detail on that day. MS R PATEL: If one reads further down the paragraph, Mr van Zyl, it was in fact in that meeting that the decision was taken as Mr van Zyl has stated "That the four individuals be neutralised urgently." MR J VAN ZYL; That was not the impression I had. My impression was more that Colonel du Plessis, Major du Plessis at the time, was re-confirming the latest information that Colonel Snyman had actually known about. MS R PATEL: MR J VAN ZYL: No. But that is how I remember it. Colonel Snyman was head of the division. He had access to all information at an ongoing basis, Mr Chairman. MS R PATEL: Surely what other meaning does one attach to the word "geneutraliseer"? MR J VAN ZYL: MS R PATEL: During the meeting in which Mr du Plessis and yourself went to discuss the question of whether the deceased should be killed or not, did Mr Snyman then at that stage say, "I need time to think about this and call you back to another meeting"? Or was there only one meeting? MR J VAN ZYL: MS R PATEL: So then the decision was taken there, or alternatively, in your presence did Mr Snyman contact anyone else before taking the decision? MR J VAN ZYL: Not in my presence. MS R PATEL: So then he made the decision himself, not so? MR J VAN ZYL: He gave the final authorisation himself. That is the way that I saw it, Mr Chairman. MS R PATEL: But the decision was taken by himself, without consultation to anyone else in your presence at that stage, given that there was only one meeting. MR J VAN ZYL In my presence, yes. MS R PATEL Thank you I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Have you got any questions Mr Hugo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr van Zyl how long have you known Mr de Kock? MR HUGO I have met Mr de Kock I think during the last days of 1980 or in the beginning of 1981. MR S HUGO: Were you with Mr de Kock in "Koevoet"? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR S HUGO: Did you get to know him well during the "Koevoet" days? MR J VAN ZYL: Reasonably well, Mr Chairperson. MR S HUGO: Would you say that there was a relationship of trust, a close relationship of trust between the two of you? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, there was definitely a measure of a relationship of trust between us. MR S HUGO: Did you trust him with sensitive information? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, at times we did. MR S HUGO: Since you met him for the first time until today, has there ever been any friction between you and Mr de Kock which you could recall? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: There were never any problems between the two of you? MR J VAN ZYL: No, nothing. MR S HUGO: I am uncertain at this stage what I should think of your evidence in terms of what Mr de Kock has stated. So I am going to state it to you broadly. Am I understanding your evidence correctly when I say that there was a conversation with Mr de Kock where certain aspects are correct, other aspects which were discussed at the time are not correct. MR J VAN ZYL: I have said that it is possible that we discussed it, but I cannot remember the actual incident or time. MR S HUGO: If I recall your evidence correctly, you stated that Mr de Kock was confusing certain facts and his memory is failing him in terms of certain details. MR J VAN ZYL: I did say so. MR S HUGO: Let me just state that Mr de Kock says that his memory is very clear and that he has absolutely no doubt that that which he has stated in his statement in actual fact is what was discussed between the two of you. What do you have to say? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Mr van Zyl, you should just distinguish between the objective facts as they occurred or that which Mr de Kock says that you related to him. Do you understand? MR J VAN ZYL: I do understand, of course, but I cannot understand why I would have told it to him in this way. MR S HUGO: That is the question. That is what I am asking you. Did you during a telephonic conversation with Mr de Kock relate information to him, among others, that you had killed Mr Goniwe. MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: I am asking you again. Did you tell him that you had killed Mr Goniwe? Yes or no? MR J VAN ZYL: That is what I am telling you. I cannot recall that this conversation took place. If I had spoken to him, the facts which he is relating are not completely correct and I cannot remember that I actually put it to him in that way. MR S HUGO: Is is possible that you told Mr de Kock that you had personally shot him? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot say whether that is possible, I cannot say why I would have done it. I cannot even think why I would have twisted the names. MR S HUGO: Let us take this point for point. MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Is it possible? MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible. MR S HUGO: He thinks that your rank at that stage was Captain and he knew that you were stationed in Port Elizabeth. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes that is Sir. MR S HUGO: Then he says that you contacted him at Vlakplaas. You wanted to know if he had contact with the Ballistic Unit of the South African Police, seeing as he had some problems, did you say that to him? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall that. MR S HUGO: Why can you not recall that, Mr van Zyl? MR J VAN ZYL: Because the conversation might have taken place it was just a very long time ago and I cannot recall whether we spoke of this. MR S HUGO: Is it possible that you did require assistance from the Ballistic Unit of the South African Police? MR J VAN ZYL: That could be so. MR S HUGO: You required assistance from the Ballistic Unit? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR S HUGO: Then Mr de Kock says that Van Zyl told me that he was having problems with a rifle that he had used in an operation. Is that so? Can you recall that? MR J VAN ZYL: No, but it is possible. MR S HUGO: I beg your pardon? MR J VAN ZYL: No, I cannot recall this from memory. MR S HUGO: Is it possible that Mr de Kock is correct when he says this? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct. MR S HUGO: Mr de Kock states that you wanted the Ballistic characteristics to be altered. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible. MR S HUGO: Then he goes further to say that he told you that he did not have a contact and he proposed that you dispose of the firearm in the sea. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: That is possible. MR S HUGO: And your answer was that there were approximately 120 of these firearms in the country and that it belonged to a very good friend of yours. MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Now is this correct in terms of the objective facts? MR J VAN ZYL: Well, I do not know about the 120 firearms. All that I can surmise is that I licensed the rifle to myself. MR S HUGO: You see, the problem I have Mr van Zyl, is that in terms of the objective facts, this is not correct. What you are saying is not correct. And then you proceed to say that it could be true. That you said to Mr de Kock. So why are you dishing up false facts about Mr de Kock. MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Well, I have a problem because you told us earlier on that he was a confidant of yours and that you trusted him with sensitive information, so why would you have told him lies? MR J VAN ZYL: Chairperson, I do not believe that I said what he says that I said. MR S HUGO: Wait a minute. We will come to that matter later. You said earlier that it was possible that you had said to Mr de Kock that there were 120 firearms. Now I am asking you: why are you lying to Mr de Kock? MR J VAN ZYL: Perhaps I wanted to place him under a different impression. MR S HUGO: Why would you want to do that? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: I beg your pardon? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Let us see which other lies you dished up for him. In the following paragraph, Mr de Kock states that later on in the year I met van Zyl in Pretoria, or it could have been when I was in Port Elizabeth. Is that true? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes it is possibly true. We met each other over that time period. I cannot remember exactly when. MR S HUGO: But you did meet each other again later in that specific year. Perhaps we should just achieve some clarity. Are we speaking of 1985? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: Would you like to place that into a specific time context? The date when this conversation could have taken place. MR J VAN ZYL: I have no idea. MR S HUGO: Which month? MR J VAN ZYL: I do not know. MR S HUGO: Then Mr de Kock says that you personally informed him of the fact that you were in charge of an operation when Goniwe and others were abducted. What do you say of that? Is this correct? MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible, Mr Chairman. MR S HUGO: Mr de Kock goes on to say that you informed him that you and your people were personally involved in the operation. Did you say that to him.? MR J VAN ZYL: That is possible. MR S HUGO: Then he says that you told him that you had ambushed Goniwe and the others and abducted them. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: That is possible. MR S HUGO: He says that Van Zyl told me that... MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Well, you understand the language that you used as part of the Security Police. It could have meant abducted or taken. MR J VAN ZYL: I am not certain. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, it is possible. MR S HUGO: Mr de Kock also says that you saw him in a yellow vehicle. What do you say of that? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct. MR S HUGO: You said this to Mr de Kock? MR J VAN ZYL: No, I told him that I had a yellow vehicle at the time. MR S HUGO: Well, if Mr de Kock when he says that you told him that you put him in a yellow vehicle. Mr de Kock is therefore making an error here? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: Then Mr de Kock says that you told him that the vehicle had belonged to the Security Police. Did you say that? MR J VAN ZYL: He must have assumed this. MR S HUGO: No, Mr van Zyl, that is not the question. MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall whether I said that to him. MR S HUGO: If Mr de Kock were to say it, would you deny it? MR J VAN ZYL: I would not. MR S HUGO: Then Mr de Kock proceeds to say that when you told him of the incident, you also told them that you were quite surprised when Goniwe struggled and fought back. Did you say this? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall this exactly, so it is possible. MR S HUGO: Did you tell him this or not? This is your version, the version you have been presenting to the Committee yesterday and today. It could be another lie that you have dished up for Mr de Kock. MR J VAN ZYL: That it is possible that I said it. MR S HUGO: So you are saying that it is possible that you told him this? Now I ask you once again, why if you are saying that it is possible that you said it, are you lying to Mr de Kock? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot say why I would have done it then, Mr Chairperson. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall. MR S HUGO: Well, let me ask you again. If Mr de Kock says that you did say this? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, it is possible. MR S HUGO: Once again, is this a lie that you have told to Mr de Kock? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR S HUGO: But why are you doing this, Mr van Zyl? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot say at this point why I did this then. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Very well. Mr de Kock goes on to say that during the struggle - oh sorry, we have dealt with that already. In the next sentence he says that during the struggle, a shot was fired through the roof of the yellow police vehicle. Did you say this to him? MR J VAN ZYL: I don't think so. A shot was not fired through the roof of the police vehicle. MR S HUGO: Did you possibly tell Mr de Kock that a shot was fired through the roof of the vehicle? MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible. MR S HUGO: Once again you have been lying to Mr de Kock? MR J VAN ZYL: I do not know if I did it. MR S HUGO: Now I ask you once again: why, in your version you concede it is possible, but why do you present an incorrect version to Mr de Kock regarding what happened? MR J VAN ZYL: Chairperson, both Mr de Kock and myself grew up in a milieu of disinformation and we have unfortunately applied and used it when it suited our purposes. MR S HUGO: Are you saying that you purposefully misinformed Mr de Kock? MR J VAN ZYL: No, I cannot say what I meant with it at that time, because I cannot remember it. MR S HUGO: Very well. While we are with this point, we are going to refer to it again, I would like to achieve clarity with this. Is your version that a bullet was not fired through the roof of this vehicle objectively? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, that is true. I have no doubts. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: I could not have used it in this context, so here Mr de Kock is not speaking the truth. Not with regard to this conversation. There might have been another conversation in which we discussed the person, but it could not have been used in this context because Winter was not involved. MR S HUGO: Well now possibly these are the objective facts, I would not like to expand on that right now. The question is: what did you say to Mr de Kock. MR J VAN ZYL: In this context I did not say to him and definitely not during this discussion in relation to the matter. MR S HUGO: In relation to this matter your memory is fresh and clear at this point, and Mr de Kock is making an error? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: You are once again confusing the principles. I am not asking you objectively, I am asking you what you said to Mr de Kock because you have already conceded that you have told a number of lies to Mr de Kock. MR J VAN ZYL: It - they were possibly lies. If I spoke to him exactly as you have said, then they were definitely lies. In relation to Mr Winter, I cannot concede that I said that in this context. Perhaps at another time, during another discussion it might have happened but Winter was not involved, he was not present, and I cannot see why I would implicate him. MR S HUGO: There are several examples of where your memory fails you when you testify regarding this incident, however, you are prepared to say that Mr de Kock definitely is not correct regarding the context of this discussion and we will just have to test to what degree your memory is correct. And whether or not you recall the events correctly. May I just ask you, objectively speaking, did Mr Winter have a drinking problem? MR J VAN ZYL: We have discussed this yesterday. Sometimes he drank a bit more than us. He was not under the influence of alcohol every day, so I do not think it was actually a drinking problem. MR S HUGO: Mr de Kock continues by saying that you said that Goniwe and the others were taken to a farm or a plot where they were murdered. Did you say that to him? MR J VAN ZYL: Once again, objectively, it is not true. And I cannot think that I would have said this to him. MR S HUGO: Therefore you are stating that Mr de Kock has once again made an error and he is presenting a false version to the Committee regarding what happened. MR J VAN ZYL: No, I just believe that he is confusing the facts in terms of the time periods. MR S HUGO: Then Mr de Kock says that Van Zyl told me that they were burning documents on the farm or smallholding. MR J VAN ZYL: Objectively, once again it is incorrect. MR S HUGO: That is not the question, Mr van Zyl. Did you say this to him? MR J VAN ZYL: Chairperson, I cannot recall that I ever said this to him. MR S HUGO: Is it possible that you said it to him? MR J VAN ZYL: I do not have any knowledge of any documentation that was burnt. MR S HUGO: The question is did you say this to Mr de Kock? MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible in another context. MR S HUGO: Well, within which context? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Now, why are you referring to another context? Were documents or - sorry let me put it to you this way: was any mention ever made of any documents which were burnt, between you and Mr de Kock? MR J VAN ZYL: I do not know why he is referring to documents so once again Mr de Kock is telling you - or making a false statement regarding this issue. MR S HUGO: What do you have to say regarding that? MR J VAN ZYL: It is not true. I can say nothing else but that. MR S HUGO: You maintain that at this point Mr de Kock is not taking the Committee into his confidence and he is providing a false version of the events to this Committee. Is that what you are saying? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Mr de Kock continues and says that Winter threatened to kill Gert Lotz if he ever spoke of the incident. What do you say to that? MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, I do not recall that. MR S HUGO: You cannot remember it? MR J VAN ZYL: No. MR S HUGO: Could you have said this to Mr de Kock? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Is it possible that you said this to him? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot think that I would have said this to him. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: No, I did not. MR S HUGO: Once again Mr de Kock is not correct on this point and he is submitting a false statement regarding the issue. Is that what you are saying? MR J VAN ZYL: Chairperson, I do not know why I would have said that to him. MR S HUGO: But you have just told the Honourable Committee that you might have provided this information. MR J VAN ZYL: Then it might be possible. MR S HUGO: So, now you are saying that you might have said it, but the objective would have been to misinform... MR J VAN ZYL: What I am saying is that I cannot remember and if I had said it, it would probably have been to misinform, but I cannot remember. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: Not in my presence. MR S HUGO: Did you ever acquire any information regarding this? MR J VAN ZYL: Not that I can recall. MR S HUGO: Well, Mr van Zyl, what do you mean when you say "not that you can recall"? Is it possible that there was talk of this kind of thing. MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, Mr Winter had no knowledge of this incident. MR S HUGO: The question is whether Mr Winter, to the best of your knowledge, ever threatened Mr Lotz with death if he discussed the incident again. MR J VAN ZYL: No. MR S HUGO: So it never happened. MR J VAN ZYL: Not in my presence. MR S HUGO: Is that once again also possible, or do you exclude it completely? MR J VAN ZYL: I never heard Mr Winter threaten anybody with death. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: Then Mr de Kock says that Sakkie van Zyl was very worried about the weapon and once again repeated that it came from his best friend. What do you say to that? MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible. MR S HUGO: That you said it to him? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: Once again, in terms of the objective facts, if we have to accept your evidence and testimony today, another lie which you have told to Mr de Kock. MR J VAN ZYL: It would appear as such. MR S HUGO: And this is the second time that you present a lie to Mr de Kock. MR J VAN ZYL: Yes that is so. MR S HUGO: So why did you do it? MR J VAN ZYL: I think it is just the way in which we discussed it at that time. MR S HUGO: Then Mr de Kock says that a day or two after the incident, "we left for the Moyat Islands in the Comores" where you were going to dive... MR J VAN ZYL: I think it was much later than a day or two that I went to the Comores. MR S HUGO: That might have been so. Would you like to say how much later it was that you went to the Comores. MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Then he says that apparently you were there for 14 days and that you informed him that General Krappies Engelbrecht took over the investigation. Did you say that to him? MR J VAN ZYL: That is possible, Chairperson. MR S HUGO: And is that in line with the objective facts, to the best of your knowledge? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct, although it was only in 1988 that I was informed that General Krappies Engelbrecht had taken over the investigation. I do not know exactly when before that it was that he took over. But I do know that Eric Taylor informed me in 1988 that General Krappies Engelbrecht was involved with the investigation. MR S HUGO: Well, could you just tell us for interest sake how it occurred that General Engelbrecht took over the investigation? MR J VAN ZYL: I think during that stage General Engelbrecht was still involved with murder and robbery and head office in Pretoria. I do not know where he was during 1988. Taylor phoned me to inform me that General Engelbrecht was in Port Elizabeth and that he would be investigating the matter. MR S HUGO: Did General Engelbrecht ever liaise with you regarding the issue? MR J VAN ZYL: I met him later for the first time in Pretoria. That was during 1988 and General Engelbrecht spoke to me about the matter. MR S HUGO: Well, what did he say to you? MR J VAN ZYL: General Engelbrecht told me that he was investigating the matter and that I was a suspect in the matter. MR S HUGO: That you were a suspect? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: Why would he have said that to you? Where did he obtain this information? MR J VAN ZYL: I though he was trying to bluff me and I denied it. MR S HUGO: But why on earth would General Engelbrecht try to bluff you by saying that you were a suspect in the matter. What would he achieve through this? MR J VAN ZYL: Perhaps he had information at that time and regarding the case, and he might have been trying to catch me with it. MR S HUGO: Are you saying that there might have been information which General Engelbrecht had at his disposal which indicated that you were involved in the incident. MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: The final aspect of this discussion between you and Mr de Kock was that he took over all the traffic offence fines which were issued on the yellow police vehicle. Is that true? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall that I said that to Mr de Kock, but that was objective and it might well have happened. MR S HUGO: I would just like to return to the beginning of your statement on page 42 of the bundle. Item 3, you say per address Advocate McAdam of the Witness Protection Programme. Now can you explain to us how it came about that you were in a Witness Protection Programme? MR J VAN ZYL: Advocate McAdam suggested that I write down the address as such in this application. MR S HUGO: Are you under witness protection? MR J VAN ZYL: For the Truth and Reconciliation, yes. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: Advocate McAdam and one or two policemen asked me if I wanted to be in this Witness Protection Programme, meaning that during these Amnesty Hearings, I would receive protection from them, and I did not think that this would be to my disadvantage. I agreed to it. MR S HUGO: Is there any particular reason why you thought it was necessary for you to be in this programme? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: If I remember your testimony correctly, you applied for three incidents. A person you killed in 1980. And then the Pebco Three incident and then the current incident. MR J VAN ZYL: I never said that I only applied for three. Mr Bizos asked me about the incidents where there was loss of life. I have applied for four incidents. The fourth incident is an incident where myself and Mr de Kock were involved where the building of the UDF was damaged. It is a community building in Cape Town. MR S HUGO: Now, when was this? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: And now you resigned from the Security Police and you train the SAP Special Forces. What is this Special Forces that you joined? MR BOOYENS: Mr Chair, what does it matter - how relevant is it if he joined the CIA or the Defence Force or Special Forces. He joined up with in 1986, after this incident. I have a problem with the relevancy of this. MR S HUGO: I just want to come back to the first meeting that you had with General van Rensburg. Let me ask you this before we begin with that. Are you satisfied that you have given all the relevant information to this Honourable Commission? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, to the best of my memory. MR S HUGO: All the details and particulars as far as you can remember? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: Now I want to know from you - the meeting that you had with General van Rensburg where it was decided to kill Goniwe. Was it decided between you and Mr van Rensburg. Was it decided how he was going to be killed? I want to know the logistical particulars. MR J VAN ZYL: It was at the final meeting when we came back from Colonel Snyman and the question arose of how the operation was going to be set into place. I specifically asked if it was going to be an operation like the previous one as in the Pebco 3, where the person were burnt out in totality and General van Rensburg told me that it was not to be so. And it had to look like a vigilante type attack or like an Azapo attack.. MR S HUGO: Can I just stop you there at that point. You now knew the actions of the activists and the struggles between the different organisations in the Eastern Cape. If you refer to vigilante attacks, which form did these vigilante attacks take, according to the best of your knowledge? MR J VAN ZYL: We attended many of these scenes where the attacks took place. It was usually sharp objects, like a knife or an axe, or a hatchet, where people had multiple wounds from these weapons and bodies were burnt out, or half burnt. MR S HUGO: Did Mr van Rensburg, during this discussion, refer to vigilante, or did he speak in particular of hacking and stabbing wounds? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Which preparations did you make for this operation so that it looked like a vigilante operation? MR J VAN ZYL: As I have said, I asked the other members to bring along a knife and on the day of the incident, I took two containers with petrol along. MR S HUGO: I want you to think about the question and explain to me the totality of the logistical preparations you made for this operation. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, where are we going? MR S HUGO: I wish to show that this witness does not take the Commission into his confidence and is not placing the full facts before the Commission. CHAIRPERSON: Does this entail going through his whole testimony? MR S HUGO: Mr Chair, if you want me to give you a version and then ask the witness to react on that, either that or having to go through his whole testimony discussing all the details. Mr Chair, can I just ask a few more questions and if you feel it is relevant or not, please stop me. The operation that was to be brought about - was the idea that you alone would kill these people? MR J VAN ZYL: The directive was not put to me as such. I thought that I would do it by myslef. MR S HUGO: That you would do it alone? MR J VAN ZYL: Do the eventual killing myself. The physical act, yes. MR S HUGO: Now why do you ask of the other persons to also bring knives. MR J VAN ZYL: When I drove away with the first person, I planned to kill all of them. MR S HUGO: Can you remember to the best of your memory what role did you have for the black members of the group? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: These members, you never told them before the incident what was to happen and what was the objective of it? MR J VAN ZYL: It was a later decision on my part. MR S HUGO: May I ask you where did the black group wait for you? MR J VAN ZYL: This was in a black township in New Brighton. MR S HUGO: CHAIRPERSON: MR S HUGO: Can you just look at this map, Mr van Zyl? Where were the black group on this map? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Your testimony is that you went with four persons from Olifantshoek - can you just show on the map from which direction you arrived? MR J VAN ZYL: From the Northern side. MR S HUGO: Then you turned left? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: And then you left these persons in the presence of Mr Taylor and yourself and Mr Lotz went across the road to point "B"? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: What time is this approximately? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: The dark stripe that is shown there, is that a tarred road? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: How busy is this road? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: To the best of your knowledge? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, I assume so. It was known as a quiet area. MR S HUGO: Mr van Zyl, I just want you to look at the album. Photo number 9. Do you have this in front of you? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, I do. MR S HUGO: Do you agree that this is a photo of the car that was burnt. MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: The vehicle that belonged to Mr Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: I accept this, yes. MR S HUGO: You have burnt the vehicle, you poured petrol over it and now you moved back, if I can refer you to exhibit "M", the chart, would you like to indicate where you are moving now. In which direction were you moving? MR J VAN ZYL: Back in the direction of "C", where the persons were waiting. Taylor was waiting with the activists. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: And you decide to take the first one and kill him. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: How did you decide which one of these activists would you take first? MR J VAN ZYL: No, I did not give preference to any of them. MR S HUGO: You opened the door and took the first person that was closest to you. Is this correct? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember if I took the first one closest to me. I cannot remember specifically how I took him. MR S HUGO: The point I wish to reach is that the person you took out of the vehicle was he still cuffed? And we know now that this was Mr Mkhonto. MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: How was he cuffed? Behind his back? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, behind his back. I said yesterday that he was cuffed behind his back. MR S HUGO: Now, you put him into your vehicle? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Excuse me, Mr van Zyl, was it just his arms that were cuffed? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Thank you. Now you load him into your vehicle. Is he in front or on the back seat? Left behind you or right behind you? MR J VAN ZYL: Right behind me, as I remember. MR S HUGO: Now you drive to the point where you are going to kill him. Do you wish to look at the chart and indicate where you took him to, to which place? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chair, on this chart, it was opposite the tar road, on the Northern side of the township. But I cannot indicate the precise point. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: How long does it take you from the point where you loaded him into your vehicle to point "A"? MR J VAN ZYL: About ten, fifteen minutes. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember, I assume that mine was open. MR S HUGO: Were the doors locked while you drove? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, the child locks were engaged, if I recall correctly. Yes it was locked. MR S HUGO: Excuse me, if the child locks are engaged, can you open the door from the outside? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: And is this in respect of all three doors? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Mr van Zyl, the weapon that was used. Where is this weapon at this stage? MR J VAN ZYL: The weapon was just behind my feet. MR S HUGO: How do you think it happened that Mr Mkhonto got the cuffs in front of him and you did not realise this? And if I say in front of him, that he was not cuffed behind his back but in front of him. MR J VAN ZYL: I was driving slowly at that point and it was bad part, and I was concentrating on the path and he did this without me being aware of this. MR S HUGO: Did you speak to Mr Mkhonto while you drove from where you picked him up to where you killed him? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: And the next moment what happened? MR J VAN ZYL: He grabbed me at the throat from behind with both of his hands. And he pulled me back against the backrest and we were driving at this stage. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: No, I cannot exclude this totally. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: But one of the shots at least were shot in the vehicle from a short distance? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: By the way, what type of clothes were you wearing during this operation? MR J VAN ZYL: I had a khaki jacket and jeans and a normal shirt. MR S HUGO: And the other persons involved in this operation. What were they wearing? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: And when the shot went off, to the best of your knowledge, was there any blood? MR J VAN ZYL: And later I found blood on the seat, which I washed off at the Brighton Police Station. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: I assume so. MR S HUGO: And how did you clean it? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Then you linked up with the black group? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: And their vehicle - you left this at New Brighton Police Station. Just a few blocks from where we are now? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: Can I just ask you, where did these knives come from? With which the corpse was stabbed? MR J VAN ZYL: The blacks always had knives with them. MR S HUGO: Did they have these knives with them by accident? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: And your knife, what happened to your knife? MR J VAN ZYL: I had a few knives that I have given away since... MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: Just one. MR S HUGO: Just one knife? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: I do not want to refer to all the details, can I just tell you broadly? The rest of these activists were killed gruesomely in respect that they were stabbed several times with knives. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR S HUGO: Now, Mr van Zyl, I assume that it was a bloody operation. MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, it was. MR S HUGO: In fact it cannot be otherwise if we accept your version that some of these blacks must have been bloodstained quite badly after the operation was completed. MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chair, it was dark most of the time, I cannot comment on that. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: And after completion of the operation, these three black members got into your vehicle with you and you drove back and you say you arrived at the police station just as it was getting light. MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: When you arrived at the police station, where did you go to then? MR J VAN ZYL: Inside. MR S HUGO: I am talking about the entrance. MR J VAN ZYL: At the main entrance. Parking was behind. MR S HUGO: And I assume there were people at the police station? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: What I find strange is after the completion of this operation, you go to a police station where you have, according to you own concession the people you had with you were bloodied and you expose yourself to other police persons who could see that you were busy in an operation where there was blood involved. MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: If the place was crawling with people, I would have made another plan. MR S HUGO: And when you washed the vehicle, was there nobody else who could possibly see that you were washing your vehicle? MR J VAN ZYL: No, there was nobody in the vicinity. MR S HUGO: Were there any blood stains on your clothes? MR J VAN ZYL: Not that I can remember. MR S HUGO: Is it possible? MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible, but I cannot remember that there were any blood stains on my clothes. ADV D POTGIETER: Mr Hugo, is your client in a position to say that the witness is not speaking the truth in terms of the blood stains? MR S HUGO: Mr Chair, he cannot be in such a position. We have to determine who is talking the truth. ADV D POTGIETER: I have to say, Mr Bizos was quite thorough, and if we do it once or twice, it does not matter. I just suggest that you confine yourself to what concerns your client. That you confine yourself to what is an aspect that concerns your client. MR BOSMAN: If I can just be of assistance here, is it not that you want to establish an argument because of the witness and instead of repeating all the witnesses testimony. MR S HUGO: I wish at least to be in a position where I want to put it to this witness that this vehicle was not taken to the police station that morning. And I want to know from this witness at least what happened to this vehicle and whether this vehicle is available for investigation, in this respect it is relevant in that it can indicate whether Mr de Kock heard correctly when he heard that there was a shot fired in the car. And if it would indicate that there was as shot fired through the rood, it could possibly have been repaired. And the next question would be who repaired it? CHAIRPERSON: I can understand the question of the shot through the roof is relevant, but I wish to.. can you concern yourself with just that. MR S HUGO: Mr van Zyl, do you say that there is absolutely no doubt that a shot was not fired through the roof or any other part of the vehicle during the struggle with Mr Mkhonto? MR J VAN ZYL: Not in my vehicle, no. MR S HUGO: Did you inspect the vehicle afterwards to check if there were any shots? MR J VAN ZYL: Superficially there were no other holes apart from the marks on the seat. MR S HUGO: What happened to the vehicle afterwards? MR J VAN ZYL: It remained my service vehicle until April 1986 and afterwards it remained at the branch. It was a relatively new vehicle. MR S HUGO: What was the registration number? MR J VAN ZYL: It was a CB number, I do not recall what the exact number was. MR S HUGO: There is one other aspect which I would like to address, where you say that false number plates were used. Where did these false licence plates come from? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, there were a number of false plates available at the branch, which were kept at the branch for certain operations or for specific operations and I have no idea from whence they came. I found them here where I arrived here. MR S HUGO: From where did the branch obtain their technical assistance? MR J VAN ZYL: I do not understand. What type of technical assistance? MR S HUGO: For example if you had to use false number plates and required other technical assistance, where did you get this? MR J VAN ZYL: These plates were available at the branch. They were kept in one of the drawers or cabinets. Technical assistance, if you could just expand on that. What type of assistance? MR S HUGO: Well, let us say for example one of the vehicles was involved in an accident during a clandestine operation. Where would you have it repaired? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: I would just like to address another aspect. If I understand your evidence correctly, you arranged with Mr Lotz and Mr Taylor that they would remain at the one place. If you would once again just look at the chart, that is "D" and "E", and that you moved with the black members to "C", after the murders had taken place. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR S HUGO: And you told Lotz and Taylor by means of radio that they could ignite the corpses. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: No, in that exact environment there was only the burning vehicle which was quite a distance, although it was a source of concern at that time. MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: MR S HUGO: MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall whether or not I considered that. MR S HUGO: Chairperson, at this point I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO DR W M TSOTSI: Did I hear you correctly, to say earlier in your evidence that you had asked your other accomplices, policeman, to bring knives with them? MR J VAN ZYL: The members Lotz and Taylor, yes, Mr Chairman. DR W M TSOTSI: In your examination by Mr Hugo, I understood MR J VAN ZYL: No, we were referring to Sergeant Faku, Magaduku and Mr Sakati, Mr Chairman. DR W M TSOTSI: Just those? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, because they were informed at a very late stage on that afternoon and I was not certain that I was going to make use of them at all during the operation and I wanted them to stand by in case something went wrong. I did not want to specify while it was not certain that they were going to take part in the operation, what the nature of the operation would be. DR W M TSOTSI: MR J VAN ZYL: DR W M TSOTSI: What time of day was it? MR J VAN ZYL: That must have been shortly after 11:00 pm as we said, Mr Chairman. DR W M TSOTSI: And as you said, you did not identify any of them. You just asked the people inside the car to come out and then you took them out for the slaughtering. Is that what happened? MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman. I specifically said that we identified all four of them. DR W M TSOTSI: How did you identify them in the dark, considering that the other three, you were not very well acquainted with them? MR J VAN ZYL: I never said I was not acquainted with them, Mr Chairman, we... DR W M TSOTSI: The other three. Goniwe you knew very well. But the other three, you had seen them in photographs, but you had never actually - had you actually spoken to them before? Any of the others, apart from Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: DR W M TSOTSI: MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, we would have used torches, we probably used torches, I cannot specifically remember, but we identified them before they even got into our car. DR W M TSOTSI: All right, and then you say later in your evidence that when Sparrow Mkhonto was seated, as I say, behind you and you were driving along, just the two of you, you say that both his hands were handcuffed at the back. And then you say that when he caught you, his hands were really in front now, he actually transferred his hands from the back to the front? Did you subsequently test the feasibility of this athletic exercise? How was it possible? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I think any policeman could tell you that it happened lots of times in their careers that detainees did this. Some people find it easier than others to slip their legs through their arms, I did not test it because I had seen it before that even, many times. DR W M TSOTSI: MR J VAN ZYL: I have been asked that - I did not, Mr Chairman. ADV D POTGIETER: Will you take long? ADV S SIGODI : Sorry, I just have a question. Did I hear you correctly when you said that you did not personally intend to stab the people? MR J VAN ZYL: No, you did not hear me correctly Mr Chairman. I said that it was my intention, I said it today about two times already that it was my intention initially to carry this operation out myself, just with the help of the others on a standby basis. That it was my intention to kill the people by stabbing them myself. It was my intention. MS R PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may - sorry - if I may just with your indulgence before Mr van der Merwe proceeds. There is just one point that I forgot to put to the applicant, if you would grant me the opportunity... CHAIRPERSON: CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR F VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr van Zyl, the Security Police set up in the Eastern Cape - this was a division of which the headquarters were situated in Port Elizabeth. Is this correct. MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR F VAN DER MERWE: And Cradock resorted beneath you? MR J VAN ZYL: MR F VAN DER MERWE: As I understand the testimony, you received orders from your Divisional Head to carry out an operation in which a Mr Goniwe would be murdered. If you could just explain to the Honourable Committee how you went about this, when you were given such orders. How did you - did you call in any other members from other branches or sub-branches or did you try to work as much alone as possible? MR J VAN ZYL: In those in which I participated, it was always a small group in Port Elizabeth which was restricted to the Port Elizabeth branch. MR F VAN DER MERWE: MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Did you then use any Cradock people? MR J VAN ZYL: No. MR F VAN DER MERWE: When you were given the order to execute this operation, was this operation entrusted to you? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct. MR F VAN DER MERWE: And you made the decision as to which steps would be taken and who you would use in this operation? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. In terms of my seniors and execution of the operation. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Testimony has already been given that Colonel Winter was your senior at that stage. Did you in any way notify or involve him in the matter? MR J VAN ZYL: No, except that if Mr du Plessis had spoken to him about the collection of information or the - I was not in any position to issue any such commands to Winter. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Accept for the moment that there was a request that information be sharpened around the movement of Mr Goniwe. Was the objective of this communicated or transferred to Cradock when this happened? MR J VAN ZYL: No. MR F VAN DER MERWE: The normal channels of communication from Cradock, was this telephonically or postal? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes whatever occurred telephonically was always followed up with the regular reports which were sometimes delivered by vehicle. MR F VAN DER MERWE: MR J VAN ZYL: That is true. He phoned me because he was concerned because he had orders to sharpen the collection of information and because his subjects were not there and that he did not know where they were. He wanted to know whether or not they were in Port Elizabeth and they had not returned yet, and that is why he phoned me. I think he wanted to bring it to our attention that we should know that they are within our jurisdiction. MR F VAN DER MERWE: It was suggested that the only manner in which your divisional branch in PE could have been aware of the fact that Mr Goniwe and the three others would have come to you was by means of a telephonic conversation between you and Mr Winter. Was there any other manner in which you would have become aware of the presence of these four persons in your area? MR J VAN ZYL: No, I never said that that was the only manner. We were not completely dependant upon Cradock to keep us abreast of the movements of people. We had our own technical coverage and the various branches would confirm with one another in terms of resources and coverage. There was nothing stopping me from allowing my informants to work as far afield as Cape Town if need be. MR F VAN DER MERWE: MR J VAN ZYL: MR F VAN DER MERWE: MR J VAN ZYL: At no stage did I inform him of the events. MR F VAN DER MERWE: MR J VAN ZYL: Well, it was a "need to know" basis. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Mr learned colleague, Mr Bizos, has said that a suggestion or statement was made that there was a text book answer as to what would be said after the corpses had been found, namely that Azapo would be responsible for what had happened. It is indeed so that that is the suspicion that you wanted to create through your actions. Was it planned to make Azapo appear as the chief suspect. Did this emanate from the conflict between Azapo and the UDF at that stage? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Is it correct if I put it to you that attacks occurred led by members of Azapo on UDF officials and members? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR F VAN DER MERWE: In January 1985, you arrived in Port Elizabeth. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: No, it was January 1984. MR F VAN DER MERWE: So you were there for approximately 18 months until the incident occurred? MR J VAN ZYL: MR F VAN DER MERWE: And Mr Goniwe was familiar to you as an activist. Did you know him? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Was it necessary that a person from Cradock should be with you that evening to identify him? MR J VAN ZYL: No. MR F VAN DER MERWE: If the Committee might just grant me a moment. It was asked to you regarding the re-appointment of Mr Goniwe in a teaching position. Did you ever discuss this with Mr Winter? MR J VAN ZYL: MR F VAN DER MERWE: CHAIRPERSON: As far as I can recall, the testimony of this witness does not affect your client. MR F VAN DER MERWE: But specifically the testimony of Mr de Kock, if you look at the pieces, it is actually the only relation that can be drawn between the incident and the involvement of my client in this incident-what this witness would have said of De Kock. CHAIRPERSON: That is true. How much longer will you be taking? MR F VAN DER MERWE: Approximately 15 minutes or so. CHAIRPERSON: Well it does not appear as if we will be finishing today. MR BIZOS: Chairman, could we have an indication for Counsel for the Applicants who is going to be next, so that we may focus on the person concerned? CHAIRPERSON: I think he indicated Van Rensburg. MR BIZOS: I would just like to confirm because with some degree of certainty so that we do not... CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, is that still the position? MR BOOYENS: MR BIZOS: CHAIRPERSON: Van Rensburg. MR BOOYENS: Van Rensburg. I told you that yesterday. MR BIZOS: Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until tomorrow, half past nine. HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ON DAY 25.02.98 - DAY 3 CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Zyl, you are still under oath to speak the truth. MR J VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van der Merwe. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR F VAN DER MERWE: (cont) Thank you Chairperson. Can you recall that? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Your answer was that you were not aware of any other persons who had been tasked to eliminate Mr Goniwe. MR J VAN ZYL: MR F VAN DER MERWE: Colonel Winter, during his period of service at "Koevoet", you testified that he was tasked primarily with the gathering of intelligence. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: He was there for quite a few years and that was mainly his job, yes for a short period he also had a combat team, but primarily he was responsible for gathering intelligence and for evaluating that evidence or information. MR F VAN DER MERWE: When he was transferred to Cradock in 1985, his task there was also the gathering of information. MR J VAN ZYL: MR F VAN DER MERWE: Now, you testified that the police vehicle you used that day was a South African Police service vehicle. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: That is so. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Was it allocated to you? Was it your personal vehicle which you used? MR J VAN ZYL: That was the vehicle I generally used. MR F VAN DER MERWE: The procedure if a South African Police vehicle had been damaged would it be to repair it yourself or for the SAP to repair it? MR J VAN ZYL: It would normally be repaired at the police motor port. MR F VAN DER MERWE: And I assume that there might have been quite a number of documents to fill in to facilitate this kind of repair? MR J VAN ZYL: Well, I assume so. I was never personally involved with repairing vehicles. I assume that would have been the process. MR F VAN DER MERWE: There is also evidence with regard to false number plates which were used during this incident. Could you simply explain to the commission whether one person used a specific set of number plates or were there a number of number plates that were used for deception? MR J VAN ZYL: There were quite a number of number plates which were used at the security branches and they were usually used by certain police officers who might have used them for quite a length of time, but usually it was taken off after a while and placed in the communal area. MR F VAN DER MERWE: The police vehicle which you used during your actions - did it have false number plates on that evening? MR J VAN ZYL: I imagine so. MR F VAN DER MERWE: And would all traffic fines which related to that number plate refer to one specific vehicle? MR J VAN ZYL: It would depend on the time period in which the traffic fines were issued. MR F VAN DER MERWE: In the security force during that time, if someone referred to "My people" would that indicate security police or individuals connected to "My branch"? Let me narrow it down for you. If you, as Mr de Kock states in his statements, that you and your people were personally involved in the operation. Would that refer to security police or individuals from the security branch in Port Elizabeth? MR J VAN ZYL: That would refer to the security branch in Port Elizabeth. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: MR F VAN DER MERWE: The information that Mr Winter allegedly had a drinking problem, that was a generally known fact among the people who knew him. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: MR F VAN DER MERWE; The other information which Mr de Kock has submitted in his statement, the information which you allegedly gave to him. Is this information which can be reconciled with the facts of what happened? MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, as I have said yesterday, that which I stated was stated under false pretences. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Yesterday you conceded that this might have occurred? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR F VAN DER MERWE: And that you might have said certain things to Mr de Kock. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR F VAN DER MERWE: Is it probable that you would have simply handed over this information to Mr de Kock in a willy-nilly fashion? MR J VAN ZYL: No. MR F VAN DER MERWE: A final aspect: you said that you returned to the offices and at that point it was already becoming light. That was after the operation? MR J VAN ZYL: MR F VAN DER MERWE: And that was in the middle of winter? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR F VAN DER MERWE: So we can assume that it would have been approximately 6:30 in the morning? MR J VAN ZYL: That could be, Mr Chairman. MR F VAN DER MERWE: And then a final point. You stated in your evidence that in the beginning of 1984, Mr Winter arrived at the Security Branch in Cradock. MR J VAN ZYL: Some or other time in the first half of that year. MR F VAN DER MERWE: So you would agree with me that it would be possible that he only arrived there in March? MR J VAN ZYL: That is possible. MR F VAN DER MERWE: And you had at that stage already been involved for 15 months in the Eastern Cape Regional Security Branch in Port Elizabeth. MR J VAN ZYL: That would have been the time that I had returned to the operational area. MR F VAN DER MERWE: And I am correct I assuming that you actually knew more about the threats and such that Mr Goniwe and his cohorts presented to the security forces. More than what Mr Winter would have known? MR J VAN ZYL: That is so. MR F VAN DER MERWE: And you might have contacted Mr Winter regarding these activities? MR J VAN ZYL: That is so. ADV D POTGIETER: Mr van Zyl, the yellow vehicle, which kind of vehicle was it? MR J VAN ZYL: It was a Datsun at that time. ADV D POTGIETER: What type of Datsun? MR J VAN ZYL: A large Datsun, the Laurel. ADV D POTGIETER: And what year model was that? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I imagine it was a 1983 or 1984 model. ADV D POTGIETER: It was approximately one or two years old? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. ADV D POTGIETER: And it was an official vehicle? MR J VAN ZYL: That was an official police vehicle, Sir. ADV D POTGIETER: Can you just clarify something else for me. Do you have exhibit "N" in front of you? Do you see point "A" on that plan? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. ADV D POTGIETER: According to the information here, this is where the body of Mr Mkhonto was found? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. ADV D POTGIETER: MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: You drove alone with Mr Mkhonto in this yellow Laurel, is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. ADV D POTGIETER: Did you have to via the N2, on a national road. MR J VAN ZYL: I might have used a number of roads to reach my destination. I cannot remember which road I used that evening to get onto the other road. ADV D POTGIETER: Are there any other ways or routes apart from the N2 which one could have used to arrive at point "A". MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. There were a number of what we called "sly" routes, not official routes. I am not very familiar with the area anymore. ADV D POTGIETER: This point "A" is in the vicinity of Redhouse. I assume that is to the north of point "A"? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. ADV D POTGIETER: And it appears that one would have to move past Swartkops firstly and that is a little more to the east, to the coast, if you look at the plan, do you have Swartkops. MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. ADV D POTGIETER: It appears as if - well we have Bluewater Bay, and Amsterdamhoek in that vicinity, so it would appear if I understand this plan correctly, that one would have to move past all these places in order to reach point "A". MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: But it would appear as if one had to move through a built up area in order to move from point "D" and "E" to point "A". Is that how you travelled? MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: MR J VAN ZYL: Not necessarily, the person with me was cuffed and alive. I could have travelled along that route as a police official. ADV D POTGIETER: I mean in terms of the fact that you were moving in public, you could have been spotted. MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. It was one of the remote areas which I probably had in mind at that stage. ADV D POTGIETER: And after that you moved away and picked up Mr Faku and the others and you travelled to New Brighton Police Station and from there back to Redhouse. MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: MR S HUGO: Mr Chairperson, the document that you are referring to is the route to Olifantshoek. ADV D POTGIETER: Yes, you are correct, Mr Hugo. Thank you. We have an incorrect point "C" and "A". As I have said, there is no clarity so we would have to discuss it with you at a later date, so that we can get a better picture of the distance that we are dealing with here. Was there a farm or smallholding near Cradock or Olifantspas, near the point that you were when you abducted the individuals? MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: While the four persons remained with your colleague. MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: And then you took Mr Mkhonto all the way to Redhouse, while the others were waiting on the coast. MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. ADV D POTGIETER: MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: So you could take the Uitenhage road from New Brighton, and turnoff to Redhouse. MR J VAN ZYL: Or go through the township. There were many roads one could have taken. ADV D POTGIETER: It must have been quite an expansive time. MR J VAN ZYL: Well, it went on the whole night. ADV D POTGIETER: MR J VAN ZYL: As I said to you before, it did occur, but the instruction was that it should appear to be a vigilante attack and it would have to occur in the usual places where the type of Azapo attack would have occurred. ADV D POTGIETER: Very well, I think we can look at this aspect further once we have examined the environment. I think that it might be that we would have to return to you later. Thank you. MR BOSMAN: Mr van Zyl I would just like to ask you a number of questions regarding the relationships among the members of the Security Branch. Am I correct in my deduction that you were people who were chosen as people who could trust each other. There had to be a certain measure of team spirit and where information would be treated confidentially? MR J VAN ZYL: I do not understand on which level you are referring. MR BOSMAN: You stated that you phoned Colonel Erasmus and that you asked him whether you would be acceptable to him - something in that line - and he indicated that he would want you at the Port Elizabeth Branch. That is where I am making my deduction from because you were chosen to a degree, as people who could adjust to one another and trust one another. MR J VAN ZYL: I was a Captain at the time, and if there was no vacancy for a Captain or a position that a Captain could fill, he would not have been able to accommodate me. MR BOSMAN: What were the relationships like. Did you get along with each other fairly well, did you trust one another. MR J VAN ZYL: In the security branch? MR BOSMAN: Yes. MR J VAN ZYL: As normal as any other set-up would have been, sometimes there were people who differed greatly from one another. MR BOSMAN: Can you recall anything? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOSMAN: Well, Colonel Winter was in Cradock, but he was in the Eastern Cape area. How did he fit in with the rest of the security officers here in the Eastern Cape? Was he acceptable? Did you like him? Did you talk of him? MR J VAN ZYL: Well, I think he was completely accepted by everybody that I knew. MR BOSMAN: MR J VAN ZYL: Well, I do not know how it was when Mr Winter was in Cradock, when we were in the operational area. MR BOSMAN: Would you say that during the Cradock incident and before, the relationship between Winter and De Kock was good? MR J VAN ZYL: At that stage, I had no reason to think that it was not good. MR BOSMAN: And your relationship with De Kock? Was that good? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BOSMAN: This bothers me. For what reason would you misinform Mr de Kock regarding this incident? MR J VAN ZYL: I am speculating. It was just sometimes done that way to protect oneself and to protect that person. MR BOSMAN: MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOSMAN: It bothers me. If you could just clarify that. MR J VAN ZYL: I do not know why. MS R PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, before my learned colleague proceeds.... CHAIRPERSON: Terribly sorry, I promised you. MS R PATEL: There was just one point that I needed clarity on. You stated in your application that after the operation was completed, that very morning you reported to Mr du Plessis. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: MS R PATEL: Can you recall at what stage you then reported with in the company of Mr du Plessis, reported to Mr Snyman? MR J VAN ZYL: It was during the course of that morning. MS R PATEL: Can you then explain why Colonel Snyman says in his application that the last he heard of the operation was when he heard about it in the newspapers. He says the first time he heard about the completion of the operation was that morning in the papers. MR J VAN ZYL: That is impossible, Mr Chairman. I spoke to him personally that morning. MS R PATEL: All right. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr van Zyl, I initially approached your testimony in Afrikaans, so let us remain that way. Just to touch on a few issues that my colleagues referred to. The meetings to which my colleague, Mr Bizos, referred where Deputy Minister Vlok and a number of generals and brigadiers attended, as well as a number of Colonels in the intelligence services we refer to the list of those who attended. It states that it was a shortened minute of the GVS meeting. Do you know what that it? MR J VAN ZYL: I would say that it goes for Joint Safety Centre. MR BOOYENS: At that stage, did you have any knowledge of the JSC and its activities? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOOYENS: And this meeting was supposed to have taken place at the Police Headquarters in Port Elizabeth? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR BOOYENS: And my learned friend has referred you to a number of names. You looked at the names, there was no-one from Port Elizabeth there? MR J VAN ZYL: No. MR BOOYENS: Then if you look at exhibit "A"... (Tape 8, side 2) We will later lead the evidence of some of your colleagues, perhaps they were more familiar with the administration than you were. But as you understood it, I think you touched on this briefly, but just to elaborate. It is correct that the GL next to these names signifies that there was no file on those people. MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR BOOYENS: If head office sent you a report containing the letters GL, that would indicate that at national level, they had no file. MR J VAN ZYL: This is a branch report and it indicates that the branch or the indexing system (this was before computerisation of information) did not have a file on this person. MR BOOYENS: Let us take an example to illustrate. If a person, for arguments sake, was very well known to the security branch, say in Pietersburg, in the Northern Transvaal. And this person engaged in activities which justified them keeping a personal file on that person. They would then receive a number from head office, Northern Transvaal that is? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR BOOYENS: But is this person surfaced in Port Elizabeth in the Eastern Cape, would you have a file on him, would you have known what his file number was? MR J VAN ZYL: No, not at all. If he focused attention on himself and there were reports about him, then the Eastern Cape would also have given a GL reference until such time as the person was identified by the head office and then there would be a cross reference made. MR BOOYENS: The filing system in a sub-office, because that is what Cradock was. It was a sub-office or branch office. This branch office and the filing reference system, that was obviously not as complete as your own system. MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOOYENS: So the mere fact that it was said at Cradock that there was no file for Mr Mhlawuli, did that necessarily mean that there was no file anywhere at a security office? MR J VAN ZYL: No. MR BOOYENS: That is the report or message from, and it seems it was sent towards the end of May, 1985. The JMC apparently decided that Mr Goniwe and Calata should never be re-appointed in the Department of Education. Were you at all aware of this? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOOYENS: As far as your investigation is concerned, the investigation surrounding Mr Goniwe, after you were so instructed. What was the focus of that investigation. Did it deal with administrative details, whether the man was a good teacher, whether he should perhaps be re-appointed or did that not form part of your investigation? MR J VAN ZYL: I can say that it fell outside of the ambit of my investigation. MR BOOYENS: If there had been any communication from the JMC or the Secretariat of the State Security Council that presumably would have gone to your commanding officers, and not to yourself. You were a Captain at the time. MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOOYENS: You used the words, I think when you were asked questions by the panel, that there had been an informal file for Mr Mhlawuli. Can you recall that? I think those were the words you used. MR J VAN ZYL: The informal file consisted of the information which we had at that stage gathered and which related to the activities of activists which led to acts of violence and the whole situation of unrest. It was not an official file, it was simply an operational file with which we worked and kept notes, sometimes hand-written notes in this file based on the information which we received. MR BOOYENS: Would this file have had a series number? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOOYENS: So in effect, it was just a file with lots of loose paper inside it? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BOOYENS: MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BOOYENS: It was put by my learned friend to you that Cradock was very peaceful. Let us look at your own experience. Did you ever investigate anything in Cradock? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BOOYENS: MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOOYENS: You also refer to other rural areas. Are we talking about the hinterland outside Port Elizabeth. Could you from your own experiences just sketch what the situation was: how mobilised were these people? What was the situation of unrest? MR J VAN ZYL: Damage had been done to schools and official buildings and homes. Schools had been burnt down. MR BOOYENS: MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOOYENS: If you look at exhibit "I", it looks like a inter-departmental file or memo. If one looks at the content, it looks like a file relating to another department, in other words, not police? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BOOYENS: It contains a recommendation on page three thereof, for the temporary appointment of Mr Goniwe. MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. MR BOOYENS: MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BOOYENS: But, on page four, at that stage it was merely a recommendation. Please read that. MR J VAN ZYL: "The matter is being attended to at the ministry on Friday 26 June 1985. It was discussed with the Deputy Minister. No finality has been reached and no particular date was mentioned. Report was received regarding a burnt out car on 3/07/85. Report was received with the death of Mr Goniwe and Mr Calata". MR BOOYENS: Were you at all aware in any way of the recommendations and the opinions in the department regarding the activities of Mr Goniwe and how it would affect, or not affect his re-appointment as a teacher? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOOYENS: Your investigation, to put it like that was that aimed at finding out whether the man was suitable for a teaching post, or was it aimed at actually carrying out your instructions as conveyed to you by Mr van Rensburg and then confirmed by Mr Snyman? MR J VAN ZYL: My instruction was to carry out the last mentioned. MR BOOYENS: The paragraph which starts: "He had already visited these towns (he is Mr Goniwe)? MR J VAN ZYL: Correct. MR BOOYENS: Do you have any personal knowledge or experience of that - could you comment on that. On the correctness or otherwise of what is written here? MR J VAN ZYL: As I said, in my opinion that was a watered down version of the information we had. Our information was not fatal evidence in the sense that the evidence would have been able to be led in court. Because the evidence did not exist at that stage, in these conditions in which we lived at the time, because witnesses refused to testify. We had lots of evidence and the evidence corroborated each other, but there were meetings held by Mr Goniwe and company, sometimes after public meetings at which recruitment and fermenting of violence had taken place, which led to these acts of violence and damaging of state property. MR BOOYENS: If you look at exhibit "Ki" this is a memorandum apparently drafted to justified attention in terms of Section 1 of the Internal Security Act. MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOOYENS: One aspect thereof that I would like to focus on is the following In general it tells the history of unrest and boycotts and riots, is that correct? And more specifically, paragraph 28, page 99, paragraph 28, in the report mention is made of the fact that the people made speeches which incited the people and then it is imputed to Mr Goniwe that he said many would die in the fight for liberation. Do you see that? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BOOYENS: If you look at "Kii" - to place it in proper context, it refers to - let us start on page 4. When reference is made here to subject, the subject would then be Mr Goniwe, that is sort of police vernacular? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BOOYENS: Arising from what my learned friend put to you, that he was a man of peace, in this report the allegation is made that there were rumours and on page 4, second paragraph under the names mentioned there that he incited the children to burn down certain places. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BOOYENS: Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BOOYENS: On the 27th March, he then quotes examples of the wars in Angola and Mozambique. And makes it applicable to some extent, to the local situation. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BOOYENS: So the picture that appears from this, the picture which emerges of Mr Goniwe, the deceased, is that in line with the information which was at your disposal regarding Mr Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: The information which you have just pointed out to me? Yes, completely. MR BOOYENS: Could the statement be made with justification that he was at all times a peacemaker and was not and advocate of violence, and did not incite violence? MR J VAN ZYL: No, definitely not. MR BOOYENS: If the commission would just give me a moment, please Chairperson. So Mr Snyman does not an absolute statement in this regard? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR BIZOS: We would like to hand a further document in which we discovered in the very large record in the inquest last night, and copies are being made. We would like to put that to the witness relating to the knowledge or lack of it of the negotiations to re-appoint Mr Goniwe. May I proceed with those questions in the hope that the document will become available? CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, is there a basis for which you can ask new questions now? MR BIZOS: Well.... CHAIRPERSON: MR BIZOS: CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, I am not concerned with the import of the questions yet. I am just wary of playing Ali Baba and opening the floodgates to many occasions and many opportunities to ask questions from different representatives. MR BIZOS: Yes, well I am not, with respect, asking that the floodgates should be opened. If anything, and very small aperture in order to slip in a thin document. He may have been able to throw light on it. I actually originally this morning when I saw the document taken out by my learned colleague from the record, thought that I would leave it for other witnesses, but in view of what he added this morning, I think that there may be an avenue, if this document is not put to him. CHAIRPERSON: How many issues do you want to raise with him? MR BIZOS: Very simply one where I submit he contradicted himself in re-examination in relation to his application and the particular document. CHAIRPERSON: Is that all? MR BIZOS: That is all. CHAIRPERSON: And what about the Winter aspect? MR BIZOS: That is the document. CHAIRPERSON: I see. And the document you want to hand in, contains this.... MR BIZOS: CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, have you got any comments? MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, yes unfortunately the merry-go-round will start again then. It seems if one of the aspects my learned friend wants to raise is a contradiction between what you say and what you say in your - that - surely is a matter for argument, with respect. CHAIRPERSON: MR BOOYENS: I think my learned friend had better ask the question. As far as the Winter document is concerned, obviously we reserve our rights to first see the document and then we will answer such questions my learned friend would like to ask him about it. CHAIRPERSON: Shall we then wait for this document then. It appears that they want to see it before you deal with it. MR BIZOS: CHAIRPERSON: Shall we adjourn until.... MR BIZOS: Can I put the question quickly in relation to the contradiction, so to get that out of the way? CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: Thank you. "Coming from the databases, an image can be created of who was responsible for the unrest and public violence in the Eastern Cape. Political activists are hereby identified as well as prioritised." MR J VAN ZYL: I knew that all the activists would matter in this case, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Now why would you not tell us then that your identification and prioritisation had not in his case, come out of the database from a pile of papers on your desk? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I think that I have mentioned that we had actually compiled a list of names right from the start that we knew of. This database just confirmed the information because it was intensified. MR BIZOS: CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, are we going to give the witness an opportunity to read this document? MR BIZOS: ADV D POTGIETER: Mr van Zyl, would you just clarify something for me. In reference to exhibit "A", Mr Booyens asked you about the keeping of files. Was this system computerised? MR J VAN ZYL: No, this was before computerisation. ADV D POTGIETER: If you wanted to open a personal file in respect of an activist, did you need to get a number from head office? MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: Head office would have eventually given a reference number if there is a file opened. Would there be a local reference number? And a reference number at head office. MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: Is the head office reference number the one with the "S"? MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: And local is the one with the "OP", which refers to Eastern Province? MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: Now it seems as if the person who compiled this report could establish that Legal Resources has a reference number at head office? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, it means that he had correspondence in his references, there was an index with reference to all organisations that had a head office reference and every branch had a copy of this reference. ADV D POTGIETER: This is nation wide? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. It was like a "contents". This was for all suspicious files nation-wide because no branch had the administration to handle this. The organisation field was another matter, because it contained only the information with reference to that branch specifically. ADV D POTGIETER: So would you be able to deduce that there was definitely no head office file with reference to Mr Mhlawuli? MR J VAN ZYL: No, that means that Cradock where this document had its source from, does not have a contents reference. ADV D POTGIETER: So you say that it is possible that there is a head office reference that a branch could not pick up? MR J VAN ZYL: At that stage, no. It would have been left to the division if - Cradock headed a letter to the division it would have been left to the divisional head office to bring about further references to the report. If the information was such that it was not necessary at divisional level to send it on to head office, it would have been liaison or filed at the branch. ADV D POTGIETER: So if a person drew up such a person, do you just look at the records of his relevant office? MR J VAN ZYL: ADV D POTGIETER: MR J VAN ZYL: It would have been a great trouble to do this. ADV D POTGIETER: MR J VAN ZYL: Branches went through their divisional offices. ADV D POTGIETER: At that stage Cradock had nothing to do with Mr Mhlawuli? MR J VAN ZYL: They had no knowledge or official reference to him. If Cradock had any reference to Mr Mhlawuli, if Mr Mhlawuli was active at Cradock and if he had drawn unwanted attention, there would have been a reference to him. ADV D POTGIETER: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Shall we adjourn until the witness has had the opportunity to read the document? HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl have you had an opportunity to read the document? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Bizos. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I have, thank you Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: May we put it in as exhibit "P". Would you accept for the purposes of my question that this was the evidence given by Mr Winter at this inquest? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes. MR BIZOS: And there is a sufficient portion of it for you and us to be able to understand it in the context in which it was given? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Now, the first part that I want to ask you about is what appears on page 611, line 15. I just want to read that small portion out to you and ask you a question about it. "I followed up Lieutenant Fouche at the end of March beginning of April 1985, I am not sure what the precise date is. With my arrival at Cradock, I was not familiar with the circumstances of the security there and immediately on my arrival at Cradock, I familiarised myself with the circumstances there and which problems there were. It came to my attention that the deceased, Matthew Goniwe, was considered as a leader figure of the progressive elements at Cradock and they expressed their dissatisfaction with reference to community situations, education, housing, etc." I want to ask you, if this evidence is correct, it would appear that the report given by Mr Fouche to Mr Winter and his own observations were also substantially watered down to your image of Goniwe? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, I would say that Mr Chairman. It would seem that those were his initial impressions. MR BIZOS: Would there have been any reason for Mr Fouche, who was his predecessor to be not as well informed as you were, if what you say is true? MR J VAN ZYL: He does not indicate that at all. MR BIZOS: But if it is shown that he did have discussions and briefings with Mr Fouche from other portions of the record, would you accept that there was no need for Mr Fouche to be ill-informed and not give as dramatic a picture of the doings of Mr Goniwe upon his arrival at Cradock? MR J VAN ZYL: I do not know if they in fact had any contact with each other, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Yes, very well. MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Mhlawuli, at the time, was not a Cradock political suspect. Not a Cradock as such... MR BIZOS: Well, this was end of March, beginning of April. But be that as it may, I merely wanted to draw attention to it. MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: And on page 613, line 13 to line 25, as to how he was kept under observation both electronically and by observation. MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Now the important part of this, and this is the main reason why we asked for permission to put this document to you, appears on page 614, line 20 "The names of Mr Goniwe, Calata etc, would probably have been given by the Security Branch at Cradock and sent through to Port Elizabeth. In other words this is the manner in which the Divisional Headquarters in Port Elizabeth would have followed normal procedures of security reports. I can still remember that Mr Jaap Strydom assisted by Mr Jan Vermaak of Cradock during May 1985, visited him and met with interested parties, including Major Calitz, the then District Commander, Mr Gerber, Commissioner Marais and myself held to discuss whether Mr Goniwe should be re-appointed as teacher. The idea was also mentioned to appoint Mrs Molly Blackburn as mediator and the possibility of her appointment at Graaff Reinet. My personal feeling was that I was not opposed to the re-appointment of Mr Goniwe at Cradock. Insofar as this was the function concerning Divisional Headquarters at Port Elizabeth, to Headquarters in Pretoria and what happened there, I am not able to divulge information about. Information that was in possession of PE Headquarters did not come from Security Branch, Cradock, but would have come from several sources, from several parts of the country. It therefore follows that any information was given to the top position from Port Elizabeth branch, did not necessarily come from the Cradock branch." Now, is that a correct description of what was happening at the time? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Now, who was Mr Jaap Strydom? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I accept that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: And the person who assisted him, Mr Vermaak. Who was he? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: That is possible. MR BIZOS: Major Calitz. Who was he? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: But he was the District Commandant. MR J VAN ZYL: Of the uniformed branch, yes Mr Chairman. We had nothing to do with the gathering of security information. MR BIZOS: Mr Gerber? MR J VAN ZYL: I have not an inkling who he was. MR BIZOS: Commandant Marais? MR J VAN ZYL: I take it that Commandant Marais was a citizen force, maybe the head of the Commandos of that area, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot say that it was not reported, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Well now, if it was reported, and the question of re-instatement of Mr Goniwe was being considered in May, why would either Mr Snyman or any other person involved in the sifting out of information in relation to Mr Goniwe had kept it a secret from you that this was going on? MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot tell you why, Mr Chairman. I would like to point out though that Mr Winter confirms what I had said earlier. In the passage below that one where he says that: "Information that comes to Port Elizabeth does not come necessarily from Cradock but from other areas in the country". MR BIZOS: Can you explain any reason why, if information did come from elsewhere, why it should have been kept a secret from you? MR J VAN ZYL: He does not necessarily refer to information about this meeting with Commandant Marais and Mr Gerber. MR BIZOS: Are you suggesting that information about the re-appointment of Goniwe was not of sufficient importance to be reported to Port Elizabeth Security Police? MR J VAN ZYL: I did not say that at all. MR BIZOS: Now as far as Mr Winter is concerned, may I refer to page 838... "Yes, I thought that he could not say anything to you in connection with education and that he would recuperate in Cradock in connection with..." And then again in line 25, "I want to ask you, there was an unsatisfactory situation in Cradock. Children did not go to school, there were school boycotts, the civic system did not work without the JBS. What was the solution? The solution was to have dialogue with interested parties and this was why I had an appointment with Mr Goniwe and it was our discussion, we had future communications". Would you agree that your perspective of Mr Goniwe was completely different to that of the Security Police and the man on the spot in Cradock? MR J VAN ZYL: It would seem on the strength of this, yes, Mr Chairman. And if he was having all this dialogue with the activists, it did not seem to work at the time at all, because there was no ceasing in the activities in the areas. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: I do not know if he communicated this with my divisional headquarters, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Well was he asked or did you ask him what do you think the solution to this problem is before you took the drastic step of sentencing Mr Goniwe to death? MR J VAN ZYL I was a junior member. If he communicated this he would have communicated it with the Divisional Commander, and if the Divisional Commander thought it was sufficiently important he would have definitely have communicated it with me Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS MR J VAN ZYL: No, I was just not the person that should have done that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Then on line 10 "It was to get the concerned parties together and I was concerned where they would be brought together. ....preparation to put the men to death" MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Do you concede that if you took the trouble to discuss this matter with Mr Winter, you may not have carried on with the plan to kill him? MR J VAN ZYL: In retrospect, Mr Chairman, there seemed to be a lot of solutions. At the time, we were convinced that this was the only one. MR BIZOS: MR J VAN ZYL: Personally I cannot recall that I did, no. MR BIZOS: Yes. He says: "Yes, there are people from the black community in Cradock who can testify to the fact that you think that covert operations would be of any assistance? It was my primary task to gather information Did you not think that there was need for dialogue to be honest? I did not seen any need for this." If you had to have dialogue and have covert monitoring, how could you have anything meaningful, any meaningful dialogue with him? I did my best to get the community involved, and I spent much time on this. Did you have any part in this?" I would put it to you that the monitoring of Mr Goniwe and the other persons that you killed eventually was most probably done to establish where and when Mr Goniwe moved and not to find out what the true situation was. MR J VAN ZYL: That is not so. MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I have handed a copy of a document which is relevant arising out of the questions put by Advocate Potgieter to the witness right at the end. I have given a copy of that document to my learned friend and I informed him that we intended to put it in at this stage, because it shows how files of people from other areas really are dealt with. I understood my learned friend not to have any objections to our dealing with it at this stage. This is a document showing that what happens where an activist from one area goes to another area. Are you familiar with the format here? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: Now this refers to Mr Matthew Goniwe, who has a number, Mr Sam Goniwe, could you please tell us what SM stands for? MR J VAN ZYL: Swart man, black man. MR BIZOS: Swart man? Oh. (Laughter). But he had no file. CHAIRPERSON: You could have fooled me, Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS: And, Mhlawuli SM... MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Now if Mr Mhlawuli became active in - or anywhere in the area of the Eastern Province, would one have expected a similar document sent by either Cradock or Port Elizabeth to the South West District in order to ascertain what his background was? MR J VAN ZYL: That is most probable, yes Mr Chairman. But this document shows me a few things at a glance, that I would like to point out. It actually confirms a lot of things that I have said, Mr Chairman. If I may? MR BIZOS: Well, let me just finish my question and have your answer clearly and then you may add what you want to do. Do you know whether any such request was made to South Western Districts in relation to Mr Mhlawuli? MR J VAN ZYL: No, I do not know if it was done from Divisional Administrative... MR BIZOS: Now, if it was done, who would have done it? MR J VAN ZYL: It would have been done from Divisional Headquarters, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: And would this have brought to your attention that Mr Mhlawuli was closely connected with Mr Goniwe when you were given the specific task in order to monitor him? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, if that is the only way that we could find it out, but we had other means of information as well. MR BIZOS: But you do not remember the procedure envisaged, or evidenced by this document having been followed in that case? MR J VAN ZYL: MR BIZOS: Yes. You wanted to say something? You are of course at liberty to say something. MR J VAN ZYL: Thank you. The SWD 4/A/102V8 at the top right hand corner seems to be their reference number for Mr Goniwe at the time. CHAIRPERSON: MR J VAN ZYL: Because he is the subject of this report, Mr Chairman. If the V.8 stands for volume 8, it would mean that although they did not have a full file on him, an "Algemeen file" which is what the "A" stands for, that his activities in their control area was such that they had already reached volume 8 in their division, in connection with the subject. Mr Gladwell Makawula was a subject of Eastern Province, because he came from Cradock, he had a Cradock reference, both OP, CD which is Cradock and an S4 number, but it just proves that the branch at Middelburg had no access at the time at their branch. Referring to them as "Swart Man, geen leer". Which illustrates what I spoke about earlier, about the fact that the branches were limited as far as their ability to identify subjects fully at that time. CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, of course this all depends on your assumption that this Makawula was a Gladman Makawula who you refer to. Your explanations would of course fall flat if he was not the same person. MR J VAN ZYL: He is asking for the identification in the very last paragraph and that is so. I am assuming that he is the Makawula that I know, or that I can remember from Cradock. That usually travelled with Mr Goniwe. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Booyens, do you want to have another shot? MR BOOYENS: No, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, in this Eastern Province Security Police Branch, if you want to call it that. Who had the actual right of life and death? Who had the power over life and death? MR J VAN ZYL: About deciding.... CHAIRPERSON: Yes, precisely. MR J VAN ZYL: CHAIRPERSON: Well, we know that there was such power and that decisions like that were implemented. I just want to know if you can tell us who would have that ultimate power within the branch? MR J VAN ZYL: CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that it was from further up? MR J VAN ZYL: That was my impression at the time, Mr Chairman. I had no full knowledge of that, I had no indication of that, excuse me, but I just felt that knowing him so well, that he would not have given that order if it was dependant on him alone. CHAIRPERSON: You know, many occasions through my experiences in Courts of Law, in particular the security branch, would record a lot of its activities just in case they needed to answer certain things in Courts of Law. In the instance of the murders of Mr Goniwe and the others, were there any such recordings just in case there was a need to explain it? MR J VAN ZYL: No Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What happened to it? MR J VAN ZYL: It was left at the scene by the body when the fuel was thrown over it to burn Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You saw that, that it was thrown over the body and burnt? MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman, I assume that. CHAIRPERSON: Now, this operation, I am sorry to have to put it this way, but I can think of no other way to put it. Did you enjoy it? MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman. To the contrary. CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do it? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I have asked myself that question many times. CHAIRPERSON: MR J VAN ZYL: I think at that time I was just so motivated that I was prepared to do anything for this country. Which in retrospect was misplaced, but I have no other real explanation as that. CHAIRPERSON: Would these killings have occurred without you being told or ordered to do so? MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Your application indicates that you committed these crimes as a result of being ordered to do so, by Colonel Snyman, Lieutenant Colonel van Rensburg and Major du Plessis. MR J VAN ZYL: CHAIRPERSON: Is that the truth? MR J VAN ZYL: CHAIRPERSON: You were at liberty to refuse to do so. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: CHAIRPERSON: You did not like to do it. Why did you proceed with those orders? MR J VAN ZYL: Because I agreed that it was probably the only way that we saw at the time to try and stabilise this area. CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened had you refused? MR J VAN ZYL: Probably nothing much, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Have you, to this stage, met with the family of the deceased? MR J VAN ZYL: No, I have not Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Do you intend to do so? MR J VAN ZYL: I have been advised not to do so until the final hearings or the final results of this application is over, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: And do you intend to do so, irrespective of the results? MR J VAN ZYL: I have no objection... CHAIRPERSON: MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I do not know what my legal position would be, if I did that. CHAIRPERSON: MR J VAN ZYL: I do not know if there is any wish from their side to speak to me. CHAIRPERSON: Now, you were given a job of devising this plan which you interpreted as killing Mr Goniwe and the others. Is that correct? MR J VAN ZYL: CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this. As I understand your evidence, this was a matter of urgency, because there was nothing else that could be done about the situation, it was beyond control in this area? MR J VAN ZYL: CHAIRPERSON: Now why were these people killed in the vicinity of Port Elizabeth and not Cradock? MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman this is where most of the vigilante attacks were on UDF representatives and this was also the area that was better known to myself and my colleagues that we could act in, knowing where it was relatively remote and safe, if one could say that. CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, your branch had access to, I think, a farmhouse in the vicinity of Cradock at that time, is that not so? MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: MR J VAN ZYL: I suppose it could, but that would not go along with the instruction to do it in this way, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: You see, what concerned me is that I am told, or we are told, that Mr Goniwe in particular was seen as responsible for all this unrest in the area. But yet you wait for him to come to Port Elizabeth at some uncertain time, to put this whole plan into operation. You were informed that morning that he was in the vicinity, not so? MR J VAN ZYL: CHAIRPERSON: MR J VAN ZYL: Because it was an unknown area there than Port Elizabeth, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, it was not possible to just pick him up openly and take him to the farmhouse. We had to wait for the right moment to do that. CHAIRPERSON: Now you mentioned something about vigilante activity occurring more in this Port Elizabeth area than in Cradock. What did you mean by that? MR J VAN ZYL: Because this was the area where I worked, where I had experience and where I had attended numerous incidents of murders that had occurred in this way, Mr Chairman, because the population is just so much bigger. There were more incidents in this area. CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly. That would have suited the purposes of the Security Police? MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: To create havoc amongst black people. Sort of killing two birds with one stone? MR J VAN ZYL: Not at all. It was supposed to be the cover for our operation, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: But you were aware of what was happening at the time? MR J VAN ZYL: Very much so. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED