amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-03-02 PORT ELIZABETH 6 ERIC TAYLOR https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54810&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/cradock6.htm ERIC TAYLOR (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Taylor, you are applying for amnesty for the death of the four deceased which we've already heard about, is that correct? MR TAYLOR Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS As well as the harmful - Your Honour, can I please ask, with reference to the previous applicants too, that paragraph 9(a) 1 as far as it may be possible that it should be added after the death of the four named persons "and all other offences or ...[indistinct] which are associated with that" Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Taylor, go to page 1 of your application. On page one you provide your personal particulars, is that correct? MR TAYLOR Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS And you refer to your history on page 2, and you said that on the 31st of December 1995 you retired from the police service on medical grounds. Possibly just to tell us more about Eric Taylor the man, tell the Commission, keep it as short as possible - during consultations you've told me that your police career right from the beginning till you left the service happened during a state of conflict. Will you just explain to the Chairman what your police career entailed. MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I had very little opportunity in my career to do ordinary policing. Even when I was in the police college, and I went there right after matric, we were deployed during our training and we were deployed into the Mamelodi township in the 1976 unrest situation. During the same year I did counter-insurgence courses and those courses were interrupted twice and we went to Paarl and Cape Town and at later instances we were deployed also in Soweto. In the next year I went to the border and I was situated in Ovambuland. A year later I was transferred to the security branch and there I became involved to quite a different approach to policing than the ordinary policemen and the traditional policing activities. MR BOOYENS Can you expand on this other approach, what does that entail? MR TAYLOR For the first time I came to know about the threats by ANC alliance. I came into contact with politics. And I just want to mention that at that time it was really prestige to be employed by the security branch, to be recruited by them for this purpose. It was regarded as one of the more professional divisions of the police force. MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, my instructing attorney says, and he referred me to that previously, that it is possible that you possibly do not have the correct application, Mr Taylor's correct application in front of you. An improved application was handed in at a certain stage. Could I ask - I don't want to cause delay but the one which in my bundle - is the address in page 1 is 13 Bencraig, Burtchell Avenue, Francis Evert Park? MR TAYLOR No, there is an improved application available. MR BOOYENS My attorney tells me that it has been handed in at your offices in Cape Town but for some or other reason the old application is in this bundle. I don't know how you want me to approach this. I would suggest that when we have a short adjournment at 3 o'clock my attorney will provide you with the newer application. There are no drastic differences. I don't know what my learned friend's position is. He might be in the same position. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] supplied by the Commission Mr Chairman, judging by the description it is the old one. It's dated the 13th of December '96. MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, we will have a look at these documents. You became aware of politics and also in the spirit of the time you heard lectures, you listened to political statements and the old story of the red bear and the black threat. You've heard about that and you had to live with that. Did you believe that? MR TAYLOR Yes, I believed it at that stage. MR BOOYENS You used a qualification during that time? MR TAYLOR Definitely. MR BOOYENS Do you mean by that that at present you feel differently? MR TAYLOR That is so. MR BOOYENS Tell the Commission more about that. MR TAYLOR I've reached the stage where I will go so far that the same work that I've done for the previous government I will do for this government. In other words intelligence gathering and prevention of crime. MR BOOYENS With the same degree of reality? MR TAYLOR Yes. MR BOOYENS Mr Taylor, if we can go on. Your personal review, the 1st paragraph, you just give your background: where you come from, how you grew up, where you grew up. And in the 2nd paragraph you refer to the fact why you joined the police: you could not study any further, what you believed in, what your duties as a policeman were during those days - in the 2nd paragraph etc., is that correct? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BOOYENS At the top of page 3 you mention what you really believed in, and you say "The North Western democratic style of life which I became aware of and was threatened by the ANC/SACP alliance because they wanted to overthrow the government with violence" If at this stage we can say this application is based on the fact that the deceased died as it was also described in the law during the conflicts of the past. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, who is giving this evidence? MR BOOYENS I'm not giving this evidence. CHAIRPERSON Can we just hear the question Mr Booyens, I didn't hear you Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS Who is giving this evidence Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Bizos, it's been going on like this for the last two witnesses but I agree with you that it shouldn't be so. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. Perhaps our learned friend will come back to the traditional way in which evidence is led. CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, can we get it by question and answer? MR BOOYENS Certainly Mr Chairman. The reason is, I've consulted with the witness, the only reason is what I'm giving to him here is a cue. There is a very long answer that he is going to give now. Let me put it this way. What did you understand by revolutionary onslaught? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I attended many lectures during security training courses where this revolutionary onslaught was explained. I read about it and I've made a summary of my own approach to this onslaught. The end result was that I distinguished four dimensions of this onslaught, number one was terrorism, number two was guerrilla warfare. There is a distinction between these two and if it's necessary I will try to explain that. And number three is organisation, it's perhaps not the correct word but I have used the word organisation. And the organisational process entailed or it was 80% of revolutionary onslaught and then the armed part formed the rest of the 20%. In this organisation process there were three steps. The first step was to politicise the society to make use of grievances of the day, especially socio-economic grievances. There were also emotional grievances, for example the burials of victims and only then - and it was impossible to involve somebody in an organisation if he was not politicised, then they started with organisation and people would be bound together by one organisation. And only then do I come to mobilisations. That is the manifestation we saw on grassroots level and those were the marches etc. The fourth dimension is conventional warfare. This for example happened in South West Africa. This whole process, in other words this revolutionary onslaught process could end in one or two things: a full scale war or negotiations. In our case it fortunately resulted in negotiations. This is just in short. I just want to add while I'm talking about the revolutionary onslaught, the Eastern Cape according to me - to put it in words I will never forget like Mr Jack said: " The Eastern Cape was the generator of the revolution". The impression I got in the security branch and in the overview we received from headquarters was that it was very clear that the Eastern Cape was a flashpoint. MR BOOYENS That broad background, can you or where would you say Mr Goniwe and the other deceased, regarding their actions, where did they fit into that background? MR TAYLOR They fitted into the organisational context regarding organisation, mobilisation and also the further importance of their role in this whole revolutionary onslaught was the fact that under the revolutionaries emphasis was placed on the organisation of rural areas. They fitted into this pattern definitely. MR BOOYENS What were your functions in the security branch in the Eastern Cape in 1985? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I basically performed five functions. I want to give them to you in the order of importance. In the first place evaluation and interpretation of information on a regional level. In other words the processing of information coming from the branches in the region. Secondly, I did active field work, that means physically gathering information. I handled many informers right across the region, not only in Port Elizabeth, although Port Elizabeth was my area of primary importance. And then also I was involved in bombs and also the security of very important persons. That was more or less my functions. MR BOOYENS Were you also involved in the Joint Management System? MR TAYLOR Yes. MR BOOYENS In which capacity? MR TAYLOR Yes, I served in the mini Joint Management System. I was involved in the "gik" part of that. MR BOOYENS Tell us what is a mini Joint Management System, what happened there? And you say it was in the joint Information Committee. MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR The chairman was Colonel Wolmerans of the Defence Force at that time. MR BOOYENS And more specifically this mini JMS, for which area was that? MR TAYLOR That was for the whole - all the black townships in Port Elizabeth. I just want to say at this stage that it was presented as the model JMS in South Africa insofar that at certain incidents President P.W. Botha and Magnus Malan personally visited this Joint Management System because we were involved or busy with the so-called red plan. MR BOOYENS Without going into particulars, what was the mini JMS involved in? MR TAYLOR They paid attention to methods to normalise the black townships in Port Elizabeth, to stabilise and normalise them. MR BOOYENS You said on a daily basis you were involved in the Joint Information Centre? MR TAYLOR Yes, Mr Chairman. At this stage I want to tell you that it was a bit of an irritation for me at that stage because of the volume of work I had to do and it was a tremendous volume of work which come through my office. It was an irritation to co-operate with the Defence Force on a daily basis regarding information. MR BOOYENS You say with the Defence Force? Who served on the Joint Information Centre, which departments served on this JIC? MR TAYLOR Only Defence Force and the security branch were represented, that means the military intelligence component of the Defence Force. MR BOOYENS What did you do there and what were you supposed to be doing there? MR TAYLOR And I want to say today that I provided the minimum information to JIC at that time. MR BOOYENS What do you mean, you provided JIC with the minimum of information? Was there more information available to you or what was the position? MR TAYLOR Definitely yes. There was a lot of pressure exerted on me especially from Wolmerans to provide more detailed information. I can tell you for example what happened. If I would provide the JIC with information, the Defence Force would report this information to their headquarters and then their headquarters would approach the security headquarters and make enquiries and then security head office would send the same information back to me to comment on. In the second place I was not willing to give them an indication where my informers were because some of my informers worked in very small groups and I did not want to take the risk to provide the information to somebody I did not trust. MR BOOYENS You refer to Wolmerans, he was the Chairman of the mini JMS? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Was there a relationship of trust between you and the Defence Force? MR TAYLOR Definitely not. MR BOOYENS And the information you held back, why did you do that? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Is it correct that you, approximately two to three weeks before the 27th of July, you received instructions from Captain van Zyl? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BOOYENS That was in other words the week of the 1st to 8th of July. MR TAYLOR That was more or less before that date, yes. MR BOOYENS And what was the nature of this instruction? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, was the name Mr Kondile used here because it was interpreted? MR BOOYENS No, it was Mr Goniwe. MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, it was Goniwe. INTERPRETER MR BIZOS Just for clarity: "He instructed me" what? He instructed me? CHAIRPERSON Maybe we can repeat that bit of evidence please. MR TAYLOR He told me that the elimination of Goniwe was being considered. He instructed me to monitor more intensively the activities of Goniwe and his associates and he also told me that I had to participate in that elimination. MR BOOYENS You are referring to Mr Goniwe and his associates. During this first discussion of you and van Zyl, was there an idea who these associates were? Did you know who they were? MR TAYLOR We had a got idea who they were. We were - they were known to us. Various names were mentioned and during the next three weeks various names were discussed, more names than the four. MR BOOYENS You said that various names were mentioned. I think this is a very big point of dispute. Please tell us in your own words, you said during this first discussion names were mentioned. Were the two of you alone or were there more people? MR TAYLOR We were alone MR BOOYENS Various names were mentioned here. We leave Mr Goniwe aside, we know his name was mentioned. Which other names? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS About how many names in total were mentioned? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS These names were mentioned, were the names mentioned by you, by van Zyl or both of you? How did it happen that these names were mentioned? MR TAYLOR During our discussion and exchanging of information and with the knowledge of the suspects it was a ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS The discussion came from both sides. MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Can you tell the Commission today who mentioned which names? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS After these names had been mentioned, what happened then? MR TAYLOR Then we started to monitor the activities of Mr Goniwe and his associates. MR BOOYENS Who were the: "We". MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Were you all by yourself? From the side of the security police, were you yourself involved in this intelligence gathering or other policemen as well? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Were you tasked by Captain van Zyl to be involved in this/ MR TAYLOR No, Sergeant Lotz was also tasked. After I had left van Zyl and after van Zyl told me that Lotz would also be part of this operation and then I contacted Lotz regarding this operation. MR BOOYENS Were you a Lieutenant at that stage? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR It took place over three weeks more or less. CHAIRPERSON What was the purpose of the monitoring? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, this entailed that we had to establish his movements, the pattern of his movements as to what we could expect, where he would go to on a basis. And also in what combination he and his so-called lieutenants would work. MR BOOYENS Did you gather information regarding these people mentioned? MR TAYLOR That is correct, yes. I just want to say that I did not gather this intelligence just over those three weeks. Mr Goniwe and some of these people were well-known to me before this time but my information I geared more specifically towards them. I had a lot of information before the time and I was well aware of their activities. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR I think Cradock was such a model, presented as a model that people from Utenhage and Grahamstown, their chairmen were invited to Kradora meetings there. Later on he served on an umbrella organisation which was established to become an over encompassing body for the civics in the region. He served on this umbrella organisation. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR That was the jargon of the time. It was community organisations like Kadora, Pebco etc. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR Cradock was divided into four blocks and these blocks later on were sub-divided and they became more - functioned more effectively. MR TAYLOR In other words in initial stages the township was divided into four blocks. Later on there became a re-organisation, a subdivision of these blocks, in other words to manage them more effectively. This was the same tendencies we saw in other regions like Grahamstown, Port Elizabeth etc., and even in his own rural area. That was his forte the rural areas, Steynsburg, Hoffmeyer, Middelburg, Graaff Reinet, Hanover, Bedford, Adelaide. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR The first step in the whole process was that this township had to be divided into various areas. There were area committees established there and this was followed by the establishment of self-defence units and this was followed by the introduction of what we call the: "Kangaroo Courts" in those areas. In a nutshell this is what it was about. We were not in the security police so tell us what is a self-defence unit and what is a Kangaroo Court. MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Was there anything else about the activities of Mr Goniwe? MR TAYLOR Yes. He mainly focused on school boycotts, neutralisation of the then black civic members and the replacement of alternative structures, rent boycotts. At times -the purpose of the rent boycotts, he believed that the money should rather go to the various committees and the community. MR TAYLOR It fitted in well with the revolutionary onslaught, in other words often it was said then - and formed part of the revolutionary onslaught, they successfully took the hearts and the minds of the people. MR BOOYENS Anything else that you can remember about Mr Goniwe? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Mr Calata? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, the two of them were - you could not ...[indistinct] the two, they were together most of the time. Mr Calata later, before Cradora had an executive both of them managed Cradora, that was the structure that managed Cradora. Further, he was always with Mr Goniwe. MR BOOYENS Anything else you want to add except for the general statement that he was with Mr Goniwe? MR TAYLOR Initially Mr Calata was the chairperson of Cradoya. MR BOOYENS Cradock Youth Organisation? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS And Mr Mkhonto? MR TAYLOR Mr Mkhonto was the chairperson after Mr Calata of Cradora. He focused on scholars and the youth and he often came to Port Elizabeth to speak to COSAS members concerning the organisation of school boycotts. I remember often he would get a speaker at the meetings, amongst other Hanover. Why I remember Hanover, at that time there was a lot of violence in that area. MR BOOYENS Mr Mhlawuli? MR TAYLOR Mr Mhlawuli came to my attention during visits to Port Elizabeth where he linked with UDF members. He often had contact with Mr Goniwe. He visited Port Elizabeth on more than one occasion and my information was that Mr Goniwe was not satisfied with the silence from South Western districts and he got Mr Mhlawuli to implement his plan in the South Western districts. MR BOOYENS I think it brief it could be relevant, you mentioned two others names, I think the one was Madora Jacobs. MR TAYLOR Madora Jacobs was at that time a teacher where Mr Goniwe taught and he took the lead in respect of the school boycotts from the side of the students. And Mr Makahula was active with others members at Cradora and at certain instances he attended meetings and he addressed meetings. MR BOOYENS I assume you do not want to make known the identity of these informers? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS This information that was available at the time, was there information that their identities could be become known at the time? MR TAYLOR We knew - it was something that we knew at the time, I just wanted to concentrate on movement of Mr Goniwe and these people. I activated my informers and I controlled them. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Mr Calata? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Mr Mkhonto? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Mr Mhlawuli? MR TAYLOR Mr Mhlawuli did not have a file with us. The only documentation, except for what my self and Captain van Zyl had with us in - with discussions during those three weeks that we had with us. He had an index in the regional office. MR BOOYENS You have to explain to us how the index cards work. MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR What happened usually was that other people come to our attention for the first time and we opened an index card on them and a short memorandum is kept is he should come to the attention of the region again in the future. nucleus notes were kept just to say whether he for instance visited P.E. and liaised with such and such a person. MR BOOYENS At which stage would a file be opened for this person? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR The subject is on such and such a date, died and headquarters would decide on this and then they would refer to their files. And in a matter of a month or six weeks they would come back to us and such and such a reference file. MR BOOYENS Who would give this instruction that such and such a letter be written? MR TAYLOR No, this was standard procedure. In other words the Port Elizabeth area or the Cradock area would report the death to Port Elizabeth first and then Port Elizabeth would channel to headquarters and then receive the instruction. MR BOOYENS I think one of the Commissioners asked if the file would have gone through here to see if there was any important information there. MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS What is the position with regard to, I assume security headquarters or rather provincial branch? Was there a lot of documentation? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, you can assume for yourself if you look at the activities of that time and how many persons were involved. At one stage they had two offices neighbouring each other that they broke through to make more space for more filing cabinets. I just want to add something more. Older files or less important files were moved to a safe that was on the 8th floor because of the lack of space. MR BOOYENS What happened eventually to these files of yours? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Can you remember how many files were taken away from here? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS That was taken to Pretoria to destroy? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR It was during the same period. I know there was concern amongst security branch members of the reporters, the informers because it was a sensitive issue to us. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ERIC TAYLOR (s.u.o.) MR BOOYENS Your information sources, what was the information, what was the factual situation at grassroots level in the Eastern Cape rural areas, specifically referring to the activities ascribed to Mr Goniwe and the other three persons? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS And you speak of areas, can you give us more detail? Which places were these? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS My learned friend referred much to meetings in higher circles and discussions at Cradock surrounding this whole question of the re-appointment of Mr Goniwe as a teacher. Did you know of this? MR TAYLOR Of the re-appoint? MR BOOYENS Yes. MR TAYLOR Yes, I knew of the re-appointment for quite some time before this operation. MR BOOYENS Did you consider this as a factor in your evaluation of their activities? Did this play a role in the activities? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Why not? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS It was mentioned to General van Rensburg that - was it considered that alternatives like laying a charge or detaining him, in your opinion would this have played a role? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS I just want to mention something else here. It was an accepted practice that these people even in detention, got messages out to the outside. There was reference made during cross-examination between the trust amongst your members, can you elaborate on this? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS It was mentioned that black members of the security branch and how they were threatened and how to protect them. MR TAYLOR Yes, I was actively involved with the decisions, the safekeeping of these members and I know at one instance extinguishers were taken in one evening, I cannot remember the specific date but extinguishers were given to black officials because members were attacked regularly. And we felt that we at the security branch needed to patrol around the areas surrounding our colleagues homes because they were part of this family. We felt strongly about this and I would like to mention that some our black members had to move out of their areas, everybody knows him Butler Tongata and we housed some of our members at New Brighton. It was a high priority for us. MR BOOYENS You refer to New Brighton police station, at that time did you come to the New Brighton police station? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, not often. I would say on a daily basis. This was our meeting place when we went out at night to the black areas and we rendezvous at New Brighton police station. At that time I visited the police station on a daily basis. MR BOOYENS What control for admittance was there? MR TAYLOR There were guards at the gate. I never noticed it because they knew me quite well because we went there very often. It did not come to my attention all that much. MR BOOYENS Were you body - were you searched when you entered or exited? MR TAYLOR No, we met there daily so it was not necessary. MR BOOYENS So you came freely? MR TAYLOR Yes. If they saw you once or twice then they knew you. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS "According to my knowledge up to the 27th of June" On the 27th of June certain information came to your knowledge, is that correct? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS What was the nature of this information? When did you get it and what happened then? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS What other information, if any, came to your attention? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS You speak of the operation, was it already discussed how the operation would go and what would it look like? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS We know already that these persons were not killed with firearms. MR TAYLOR This was known because a service firearm could be traced too easily and the fact that the reason for this was to not point a finger at us. MR BOOYENS In other words to leave a false trail? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS What happened next that day? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS This was yourself and him and was there someone else? MR TAYLOR Sergeant Lotz was there too. MR BOOYENS Was there at that stage anyone else? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Much was made of the involvement of Mr Winter in the operation. MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Do you know why he was never formally informed of the prospect of this operation? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS When Captain van Zyl gave the initial instruction to become involved, did you ask from where this instruction came or was it about authorisation, did he tell you anything? MR TAYLOR No, it was never told to me who had authorised this but I accepted that it had been cleared. I knew Captain van Zyl, he would not undertake such an operation lightly and on his own initiative. It had to do once again with the trust we had. I just accepted that he had received authorisation. MR BOOYENS: MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Booyens, use your discretion and ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON And Mr Bizos, is you feel aggrieved or your - please object. MR BOOYENS The three of you then went to Olifants Pass. MR TAYLOR We left in two motor cars, Lotz was with me in my vehicle and Captain van Zyl was in his vehicle. We left and went to a certain point in the Olifantskop Pass where we stopped. MR BOOYENS "after a while the motor car passed, we followed it" MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Certainly, yes. MR TAYLOR This revised document is placed in front of you ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Shall we give this an exhibit number? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS I think the main difference is that - you would notice Mr Chairman that at page 7 in the record there is "Politieke Motiveering: Sal later verskaf word" CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON I think we just slot it into this bundle then. MR BOOYENS Yes, if I may suggest that Mr Chairman. MR TAYLOR We left to Olifantskop Pass where we found or looked for a suitable place to park the vehicles. There was a kind of picnic spot along the road where we could park the vehicles that they could not be seen from the road. In the meanwhile this place had changed. Just after the pass on the way to Middelton, Cradock, the first time where there was a straight road where there were no other vehicles in sight I used a blue light on my vehicle and I forced them to stop. I stopped in front and van Zyl behind his vehicle. We walked towards this vehicle. Captain van Zyl came to the vehicle first. It was clear that he was satisfied with the identification of these people. I can remember in which - I can remember distinctly because at some or other time during this proceeding it was referred to that Mr Mhlawuli was driving the car. He did not drive the car, it was clear to me that he was sitting at the back of the car on the rear seat. Mr Mhlawuli was a very big person and it was uncomfortable for him to get out of the vehicle. MR BOOYENS How far is that from Port Elizabeth? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON You were left with the four of them. MR TAYLOR That is correct. CHAIRPERSON While the other ...[inaudible] MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Just take a guess. MR TAYLOR Initially I was not sure which one was first or second but I cleared that up with Mr MacAdam. MR BOOYENS I think your Mr MacAdam from the Truth Commission. MR TAYLOR During the photo identification and the material made available during the post mortem I could determine that Mr Goniwe was the first person taken by Lotz from the vehicle. I went with Lotz together with some of the black members. I saw Lotz hitting the person from behind with an iron object. The person fell to the ground and then the black members stabbed him with knives. I can remember at that time I was standing at the feet of the deceased. I returned to the vehicle and took Mr Calata from the vehicle. I took ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS What was this iron object? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Yes? MR TAYLOR Then, when he was ready on the scene where Mr Mhlawuli was he would just say one word over the radio and I would then set these bodies alight. That was what I did and I set both these bodies alight. MR BOOYENS Did you leave then? MR TAYLOR We left the scene. I dropped Sergeant Lotz in Algoa Park, I went home. I can remember at home I just had the opportunity to shower, dress and I returned back to my office at the security branch. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS This even, did that bother you? MR TAYLOR Do you mean afterwards? MR BOOYENS Yes. MR TAYLOR Definitely yes Mr Chairman, it bothered me tremendously. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR The meeting then dispersed and Khundu spoke to the families. He later came back and Mr Khundu told me that the families felt that I understand my situation but that this whole meeting and the purpose of the meeting would not be fulfilled if at that stage they could obtain full details about the death of these people. Impulsively I decided that I was going to do that. I did that on one condition, namely that I would not mention any of the names of the colleagues who were involved. They understood that because I said I was just talking for myself, I was not going to implicate my colleagues. MR BOOYENS Minutes were kept of this meeting by June Crighton of the Human Rights Violation Committee of the TRC, is that correct? MR TAYLOR That is correct, yes. MR BOOYENS And did you in the meanwhile, did you see the minutes? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS I have given my learned friend a copy or I was told he was given a copy of this. With a few small exceptions ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Have you got a copy Bizos? MR BOOYENS No Mr Chairman, my learned friend was given a copy of Friday not yesterday. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS Are these the minutes, is this a copy of the minutes? MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Was there initially, before you started, was there initially an agreement between the various parties about the fact that this matter should not be published in the press? CHAIRPERSON ...[indistinct] to be an exhibit? MR BOOYENS DD. CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS DD, yes. CHAIRPERSON We may get into trouble later on in the alphabet. MR BOOYENS Yes Mr Chairman, I get your point. Was there initially an agreement that nobody would go to the press with this? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS If you can just look at these minutes. The process as explained, is it correct the initial stages or what resulted in this, the first page: "Process"? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR A few of the things I can remember is for example Miss Crighton at one stage refers to "shot", I think at two places she refers to "shot". She made a mistake. MR BOOYENS "In answer to the question: who did you kill?, he that refers to you "replied: I must say that because I was there, I was involved, therefore guilty. I had the same question from Chris MacAdam but I cannot remember which one I shot" MR TAYLOR That "shot" is not correct. The word which should be there is "killed" and the same in the next paragraph with the word "shot". MR BOOYENS And "He was asked which one he shot" this you also say. There he says "killed", you did not use a firearm. MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BOOYENS Regarding the rest of these minutes? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS This is a newspaper report with the heading: "Revealed how Goniwe was killed" written by Guy Oliver, is that correct? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR The third paragraph the last part "And there were three separate apartheid death squads, one from South African Defence Force Military Intelligence and two from the Police Security Branches in Port Elizabeth and Cradock" That was never said during that meeting Mr Chairman. And then again, on the right-hand side. MR BOOYENS The right-hand column. MR TAYLOR The right-hand column, the fourth paragraph "Taylor told relatives of the victims at a gathering in the vestry of the Kabiga Park Church, that separate apartheid death squads were given the task of eliminating the activists" That is not correct Mr Chairman. And the next paragraph: "Assassins from Cradock Special Branch, then headed by Eric Winter MI were also on their trail and there had been several attempts on the lives of Calata and Goniwe in the months before their deaths" That was also not said during that meeting. At this stage I just want to tell you, when this newspaper report was brought under my attention I did contact Winter telephonically and told him because the chances were good that he could have seen the report. I said he should not worry about this report because I did not say that because I knew Winter very well. CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, when you get to a convenient stage, I want to adjourn a bit earlier today. MR BOOYENS This may be a convenient stage Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, perhaps just one aspect, can we just finish the newspaper report. I think there are one or two extra references and then we are through with that. Then on the second photocopied page. MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Might this then be a convenient stage Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS