amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-03-03 PORT ELIZABETH 7 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54811&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/cradock7.htm ERIC TAYLOR (s.u.o.) MR BOOYENS CONTINUES WITH EXAMINATION (cont) MR BOOYENS Mr Taylor, yesterday you referred to the fact that you retired from the police force, what was the reason? MR TAYLOR Because of post-traumatic stress. MR BOOYENS How do you personally find the effect of this? MR TAYLOR My physician has warned me that because of the medication I would have problems with my memory and amongst others a lower level of concentration. MR BOOYENS Just briefly, yesterday you referred to your experiences as a police officer. Your experience on court, in other words as a witness, can you elaborate on this? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS Never testified in court? MR TAYLOR I speak of inferior cases, possession of dagga and that type of situation, types of misdemeanours. MR BOOYENS And that one year was in 19? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS As a security police officer? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, Captain van Zyl was the first one to the vehicle and he confirmed the identification of the persons. I recognised some of the persons because I have seen some photographs of them. MR BOOYENS Can you remember who you recognised? MR TAYLOR Definitely Mr Goniwe and Mr Mhlawuli from his photograph and a description I had of him, he was a rather large person. In discussions later on they mentioned them by name and when we sat there the four persons sat alone with me. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying Mr Taylor, that there was nobody there to point out and say: "This is Mr Mhlawuli"? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR Well Mr Chairperson, on the grounds of the photographs and the descriptions that we had, this was confirmation and I accepted this, I was satisfied that these were the four persons. It was confirmed to me that those four persons would be in that vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you misunderstand my question. ...[indistinct] the photos and other identifying mechanisms all I want to know is, was anybody present who was able to say: "I know Mhlawuli personally, this is him"? MR TAYLOR No, we worked according to the photos that we had. MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. According to you personally Mr Taylor, have you personally seen any of the four persons previously? MR TAYLOR Not one of them. MR BOOYENS Earlier on you asked a question - you answered the question from the Chairperson, you said that you received information of the - about the four. MR TAYLOR From two sources I received information that these four persons would be in the vehicle. MR BOOYENS If you speak about these four persons, who is this? MR TAYLOR I speak about the four deceased persons. MR BOOYENS When you were waiting for the car did you expect certain people in this car? MR TAYLOR In accordance with the information that we had, and this was evaluated, we knew who to expect in the car. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR You need to understand that these informers were already handled, these tasks were just additional tasks which they had. They had to focus specifically on the activities of Mr Goniwe and his cohorts. MR BOOYENS And because of this, did any information come through? MR TAYLOR Information came through. We were focused on movements. The normal flow of information continued on my desk, I just gave more intensive attention to these four persons. CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR Definitely so Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Let me ask you this, are you talking from a moral point of view or a legal point of view? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON If you were asked to identify them would not be willing to answer those questions? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR POTGIETER Mr Taylor, was there any information in relation to Mr Mhlawuli that you received via informers? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER What type of information? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER And the time that you refer to now, was this two to three weeks between the instruction that you received and the incident itself? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER To your attention? MR TAYLOR Yes, he came to my attention. I expressed myself incorrectly now, he came under my attention Mr Chairman. MR POTGIETER So you personally had knowledge of Mr Mhlawuli and his alleged activities long before this incident? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER And definitely before the discussion that you had with Mr van Zyl? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER Was Mr Mhlawuli known to you? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER Did SWD have a file on Mr Mhlawuli? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER You did not try to find out? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER It seems like - to this effect from one of the exhibits that we have. MR TAYLOR Yes. MR POTGIETER Just to come back to the point, are you in the position that you feel that you need to protect the identity of these informers in respect of Mr Mhlawuli? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Taylor, when you made this application - or shall I put it in another manner, when you considered this application did you speak about this to your fellow applicants? MR TAYLOR Yes. Can I just explain what happened? I just need to remember what time this was. I think it was in November 1996 or around there, General van der Merwe sent circulars to other regions where he invited all ex-security members, where a proposal would be put about the whole reconciliation process and specifically the amnesty process and this was done by representatives of the Department of Justice. I just want to add that General van der Merwe was respected because he was previously the commander of the security branch. He requested us that if we were involved in any operations in the past we need to consider seriously involving ourselves in the process, in this reconciliation process. And an integral part of this is the exposure of undercover activities, this was one of the motivations. I cannot name any specific dates but we came in contact with each other and we decided that we need to apply for amnesty and every person, it was individual choice whether he would participate in this process. CHAIRPERSON Now, the reasons for your application can be as well attributed to the part played by informers, not so? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR No, these informers did not know what happened to the information that we received from them. I did not see the need to bother them with this. CHAIRPERSON Well, on the day of the killings you were informed on two occasions that you can expect a particular combination of these trouble makers in a particular vehicle, not so? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairperson. I want to state clearly that it was a daily activity to give tasks to informers about whatever subjects, it was not out of the norm to liaise with them daily, the fact that it had to look like an AZAPO attack. I did not underestimate their ability or their intelligence. Maybe some of them drew their inferences to this fact. I think unfortunately there might be some of them, in spite of them being informers they shocked, must have been very shocked to know that I was involved in this incident. CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR Not with the administration thereof. I wish to explain how I collected files and what I did with them. All the files S13/436, and I would later report in my own handwriting, it would go to Major du Plessis. If he needed to know more he would refer back to me and then it was sent for typing. After that I had nothing to do with the report anymore. The person who did they typing the addressing and the sending of it to headquarters. MR BOOYENS This is with a formal file. Now this index card, how did this work? MR TAYLOR Index cards were used in general. When another person from another region came to our attention, the first field worker who picked this up would open an index card. There would be short entry on this index card, it would take one or two forms or one person could write on index card a date and then would say COP, whatever number / whatever number. Secondly he would write subject and would say: a certain date: made contact with an activist. There were two types of index cards that we had. MR BOOYENS And that which Captain van Zyl mentioned, the informal file? What was that exactly? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS And this operational file, would this receive a number? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER Yes, I understand that but I want to come back to Mr Mhlawuli. A person - it seems that from the end of 1984 you had information about it, you had informers who reported about Mr Mhlawuli. MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, I would not have told Oudtshoorn we would want to take action. MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR If I did this before this three weeks it would have been normal but if I did it within these three weeks it would have been suspect and they would not see that because I contacted them about Mr Mhlawuli so close to this incident, it would have been suspect. MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER Why did you have all these systems, index cards, operational, information files? Why did you just not keep one file, it would have been so simple? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I understand your problem. This also causes a problem for us. I am convinced however, that if Oudtshoorn did not have a file on Mr Mhlawuli there was a omission. At certain instances I specifically used his name in my reports and I would have sent them a copy of this letter. If they did not have a file I would have expected them to come back to me and ask for information about him. MR POTGIETER Perhaps later more material will become available. MR TAYLOR I think so Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR It says in the third paragraph MR BOOYENS The context of this statement, about what was that? - It was during this inquiry. MR TAYLOR The context was, if I draw the correct inference, it had to do with the inquiry into the death of these four people. MR BOOYENS And who is Sparrow, Ford and Stwele? MR TAYLOR Ford Calata, Sparrow Mkhonto and it must be Stwele Mhlawuli. MR BOOYENS I think the word: "operational file" creates certain perceptions regarding one certain matter, you have to explain. MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS In other words the phrase: "operational file" would not be used in the official police jargon of that time when matters were discussed? MR TAYLOR This is a term which referred to JOS activities. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Mr Taylor, when you held discussions with these people, where from the depth of your heart came the idea to talk to them? MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] he told the witness where it came from Mr Chairman but anyway we will have to see. CHAIRPERSON Maybe he was talking about the different ventricles. MR BIZOS Yes. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER Were you aware of the inquest? MR TAYLOR I read about that in the newspaper Mr Chairman. I never had any in-depth knowledge. MR POTGIETER Why did you not assist the Attorney General or the court with that inquest to tell them that you felt terrible over this whole incident, but as a policeman you only performed your duty because you had received an instruction and that was what happened. MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, in the first place I was not approached. I understand what you mean, why did I not go voluntarily. The possibility that I would still be charged there - at that stage I had not experienced this transformation which took place later on when I changed my whole view of the politics and also later on the purpose and functioning of the TRC. I want to tell you that at a certain stag, because of ignorance I was careful of the whole process or hesitant. After I read documents what this was all about, what the functioning was, what the purpose was and I agreed with that. MR POTGIETER Did you not consult anybody when this inquest was going on, like a minister, a reverend of somebody, that "This is troubling me, I want to do something about that"? MR TAYLOR No, I did not do that, only a later stage I considered that. MR POTGIETER Thank you. MR BOOYENS At the stage when the inquest was on were you still a member of the police? MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR Please repeat your question. MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS MR TAYLOR Only Gerhard Lotz was still stationed here. Captain van Zyl travelled a great deal, I did not have a lot of contact with him and Colonel du Plessis was at that time stationed in Pretoria so it was only me and Lotz in Port Elizabeth - of the Northern Transvaal. MR BOOYENS MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, would you have any objection to them requesting an adjournment to consult? MR BIZOS I think the Committee is entitled to be told what is the technical problem Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Would you have any objection if they were able to consult, still consult with the witness before cross-examination? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON But not in this fashion? MR BIZOS But not in this fashion. CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, you heard the complain? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Okay. What seems to be the problem with the minutes? MR BOOYENS For example on page four ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes, what about page four? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Would you want to adjourn to do that first? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Well, I must point out I would have expected that exercise to have been completed last night already. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Mr Taylor, have you read that document? MR TAYLOR I glanced through this, I did not read it in detail. Yesterday I told you that in essence this in an accurate representation of that meeting with just here and there a difference in emphasis which is not correct. CHAIRPERSON On page four, what is it that you want to correct? MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] Mr Chairman, I object to the witness having whispers with his counsel whilst the court is in session. CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Then he should have said that to me. MR BOOYENS Yes. MR BIZOS I accept that Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS Yes. CHAIRPERSON At least in public. MR BOOYENS Yes. No, but the witness was speaking to me Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Let us go through the whole document. Page 1, are you finished with page 1? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Is there anything you want to correct? MR TAYLOR No thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Page 2? MR TAYLOR Nothing on page 2. CHAIRPERSON Page 3? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR Correct. CHAIRPERSON Page 5? MR TAYLOR Nothing Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Page 7? MR TAYLOR Nothing on page 7. CHAIRPERSON Page 8? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Page 9? MR TAYLOR Nothing Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So there are no problems with Exhibit DD. Yes Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, that concludes my evidence as far as this witness is concerned. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Mr Taylor, please page to page 8 of your application. MR TAYLOR I have it in front of me. CHAIRPERSON Question 11(a) and (b). MR TAYLOR Are you referring to page 8? CHAIRPERSON Yes, page 8 of the record. MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON 11(a), the question is "Is the deed or deeds, omissions, offence or offences executed in the execution of an instruction of or on behalf half or with the approval of the relevant organisation, institution, body, liberation movement, government department or security force"? and your answer there is: "Yes". MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON (b) says "If yes, give particulars with reference to such an instruction or approval and the date of that and if known the name and address of the person or persons who gave such an instruction or approval". MR TAYLOR That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And your original answer is "Will be provided at a later stage" When you answered question 11(a) you certainly knew what the answer to (b) was, why did you complete it like this? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON When you signed this application, did you read through all of this? MR TAYLOR Yes, I read through this very quickly, everything went very quickly at that stage. CHAIRPERSON Can you give a reason why this happened? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Did you not complete this? Whose handwriting is this? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Before you completed this form did you tell your attorney who gave this instruction or on behalf of which organisation you did this? MR TAYLOR Yes, that is correct. While we discussed the chronological order I definitely told him the line of command. CHAIRPERSON So your attorney knew what the answer was. MR TAYLOR I accept that. CHAIRPERSON He understood what you said? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Six months before this incident you found out more about Mr Mhlawuli. MR TAYLOR That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You got photographs, bits of information, little bits of paper and the so-called informal file. MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON So can we say a month or so before the incident? MR TAYLOR I would say about three weeks before the incident I became aware because at certain instances I made notes and I wrote short memos and provided it to Captain van Zyl. CHAIRPERSON It seems to me that here in Port Elizabeth you did not have enough information about Mr Mhlawuli and that is why there was not an official file for him. MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And it seems to me that in comparison to the others it was not much. MR TAYLOR Not as detailed as the information on the other three. But to go back to the pattern which we followed with expanding this information Mr Mhlawuli fitted into this pattern. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR Amongst others, yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You did not know whether he would succeed with that in Oudtshoorn. MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR I thought he would succeed, yes. CHAIRPERSON How did you know that? MR TAYLOR In the first place he had access to the same power base, namely scholars. CHAIRPERSON But that was all ...[intervention] MR TAYLOR He was influential in the community as a teacher. CHAIRPERSON That was guess shots, not so? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON It could have been that it was to come into contact, you could have contacted the security police in Oudtshoorn to find out whether Mr Mhlawuli was a leader in the Oudtshoorn area and that he would be able to establish all these structures there. MR TAYLOR It could have been easy, yes. CHAIRPERSON And then you would have been in a better position to decide if he posed a threat for the state. MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Shortly after this incident murder and robbery branch of Port Elizabeth investigated this, did they question you? Were you aware that people were being questioned? MR TAYLOR No Mr Chairman, the only thing I heard about was what Captain van Zyl referred to the other day, that Engelbrecht confronted him in Pretoria regarding this. I know at a certain stage the investigative officer visited the security branch and that was related to obtaining transcriptions of 11(a) conversations. CHAIRPERSON At that stage why did you not come to the fore, why did you not tell them what had happened? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, if I can say it in my own words, I know it does not sound good but we undertook this operation precisely because we wanted to get away with it, our intention was to get away with it. At that stage I would never have presented any information. From the beginning it was my conviction that it had to be undertaken, that we would not be charged. That we in other words were going to get away with it. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR Captain van Zyl, Lotz and myself decided jointly what to do and it would have been unethical and disloyal to go behind their backs and address the Attorney General. Mr Chairman, you must remember that in 1985, how I felt then differs completely from how I feel today. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS Could we have a date on which you say your transformation took place Mr Taylor? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR I would say it started in 1990 Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS In the beginning of 1990. And was it a - is that what you said? MR BOOYENS No, he said it started in 1990, not at the beginning of 1990. MR BIZOS I beg your pardon. During 1990? MR TAYLOR That is correct, yes. MR BIZOS We can even take it that by the end of 1990 you were a completely transformed man. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS So by 1992, how far along the road of transformation had you reached? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I just want to think when President Mandela was inaugurated, it was in 1992 I think. Yes, it was in a advanced stage, I followed the CODESSA process and also the bilateral discussions before the CODESSA negotiations started. At that stage I was not against these negotiations. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR To a certain degree that is correct yes, but that was the starting point of a long process. I think that was a political conversion, it was not something which happened overnight. Gradually I started accepting things I would never have considered in 1985. MR BIZOS And by 1993 when the election date had been fixed, by the end of 1993 and an interim constitution was voted on in the beginning of August 1993, were you still in the police force? MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And did you agree, and if you were asked to take an oath on the interim constitution, you no doubt would have taken it because of this process of transformation that was going through you. MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR I was already gone from the security branch and I was crime prevention. MR BIZOS At which town or city? UNKNOWN Were you at your own request from the security branch or were you transferred? MR TAYLOR The security branch had what we called transferral, this was because their security branch was united underneath the NBO. The NBO and the detectives did not have the ability to operate and because of this I was transferred to the CPU. MR BIZOS Were you doing your police work here in Port Elizabeth during 1993? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Now the newspapers in 1993 had almost invariably an article on their front page in relation to this inquest before Mr Justice Zietsman and you never read any of those newspapers? MR TAYLOR Not that I can recall, I had no interest in this matter. MR BIZOS You know ...[intervention] MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS I would have thought that you, having been one of the killers, would have been watching this with a very keen interest just in case things turned - took a turn and you might even have been identified in some way. MR TAYLOR Mr Chair, at that stage I was convinced that nobody had any information, that there were any witnesses or any evidence that we were involved in that elimination process. I want to assure you that if something was known murder and robbery would have picked it up. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, this did not come to my attention, I did not follow this procedure. At that stage I was just not interested. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chair, I cannot recall when these person died, these black members in the Motherwell matter. I think at that stage they were already deceased. If I remember correctly the Motherwell case was in 1989, the black members were already dead at that stage. MR BIZOS So what you should have said was that of the seven witnesses, four had been killed by the security police and therefore we were not afraid that any names would come out. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Do you want to take the adjournment now? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ERIC TAYLOR (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS (cont) Mr Taylor, the non-security policeman that was investigating these deaths was a Mr Fanie Els. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And you know that murder dockets never close and you know that he is still the investigating officer. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Yes. MR TAYLOR I realise that ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Now, the question of the Motherwell incident became an issue in the Goniwe inquest before his Lordship Mr Justice Zietsman. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Now you, as one of your specialities mentioned that was related to bombs. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Can I just give clarity? Do I have to comment whether it could be a limpet mine or something else? MR BIZOS Well, what is the problem with your answering the question? Did you or did you not realise that this detonator of a mini limpet mine could not have done the damage that had been done and that it required a minimum of four to five kilograms of explosive for the vehicle to be blown up in the manner in which it was? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, I understand the question better. The detonator could not have done the damage but I wish to say this was a time detonator, would have been in any explosive, it could have been used in any explosive. Secondly at the scene I judged it a little bit higher, I judged it for a least between 6 and 8 kilograms of explosive was used. I do not know the source of the detonator with the short period of time I was at the scene. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR I remember that there was rumour of the ANC being responsible for the explosion, I just know where the word: "mini limpet mine" or where it was suggested that a mini limpet mine was used because I had no doubt that the damage that was done there could not have been done by a limpet mine. MR BIZOS You had another interest because three of the people that helped you to kill Goniwe and his friends died in that explosion. MR TAYLOR Yes, I had interest in the incident, two ...[intervention] MR BIZOS And you knew that his Lordship Mr Justice Zietsman was investigating that matter. MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, may I please just answer the first question? I had interest in this explosion. I was at mini scenes, I think this was one of the most shocking scenes that I was at and I want to point out two things. I was relatively close to two of these persons who died in this explosion. MR BIZOS Yes. Therefore that must have heightened your interest in the proceedings before his Lordship Mr Justice Zietsman? MR TAYLOR I just had interest and followed it in detail when the matter was in the Supreme Court where Mr Niewoudt and others were charged in Pretoria. and at times I attended some of these hearings. I would just like to say that except for the question that I was at the scene of the explosion, I was never present at any of the other investigations in this matter. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR I cannot explain this. At that stage I did not follow it, just later on I started following the inquest. I cannot give you another explanation for this, I cannot tell you something that I could not substantiate. MR BIZOS Shortly after you attended the meeting with members of the families of the deceased, were you approached by one of your fiends on behalf of the investigating officers to go the investigating officers to help with the investigation? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman, I wish to explain. At that stage, I do not remember the persons, this investigating officer just contacted people or came to their houses to interview them and I went to my attorney, not the attorney next to me but Mr Alwyn Griebenhout and he liaised with this investigation team because there were other allegations against me at that stage and I told him to tell them that if they want to see me they need to make an appointment. I did not like the manner in which they were handling the people. MR BIZOS Will you please turn to page 8 of the record with your application for amnesty dated the 13th of December 1996. MR TAYLOR I have it in front of me. MR BIZOS That was two days before the cut-off date of the 15th of December, before it was extended. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Did your attorney know from you who had given you the order? MR TAYLOR Definitely Mr Chairperson, the ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Did you ever ask him for a reason why that name was not given, was not put in your application? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson I want to honestly say that this was a formality to me, my great concern was about the contents of my statement. This was a preliminary statement, it was relatively busy at that stage. MR BIZOS Well, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Who told you that it was a preliminary statement? MR TAYLOR Initially when I started Mr Chairperson, it was told to me that we would have the opportunity to give full details and at a later stage Mr Mac Adams of the TRC and his Investigation Team and I gave them a statement and he asked me in-depth to clear up some information. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That is wrong Mr Chairperson. Before we went - we had any of these forms or when we got to any of these sections of these forms we collectively decided that we were going to apply for amnesty. This process started after the meeting in Pretoria with General van der Merwe. MR BIZOS Did you know when ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Would it interest you to know that by the time you signed your statement on the 13th of December, van Zyl had not yet made an application? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON His statement was signed in May 1997. MR TAYLOR If can remember Mr van Zyl did not use the same legal team and I can remember that he was abroad and he was consulted much later. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR UNKNOWN LADY Mr Chairman, Mr Bizos this may be helpful in response and in fairness to the witness, on page 13 of the record, of the bundle, paragraph 4 he states "I was instructed by Captain van Zyl" ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] UNKNOWN LADY MR BOOYENS Well if I may assist my learned friend, if you look at the very first line on page four, the same appears. MR BIZOS UNKNOWN LADY I beg your pardon, my apologies. MR BOOYENS Maybe Mr Chairman through you I can assist my learned friend if he looks at the very top of page four. CHAIRPERSON Four? MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Yes, I would accept that. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Yes. MR TAYLOR I just wish to point out, if I can remember correctly the difference between the two statements is minimal. At that stage Mr Mac Adams just wanted more particulars about certain issues. MR BIZOS You told us that you were concerned in reading about how to counter the revolutionary warfare that the country was involved in.. MR TAYLOR I can just say I had model for anti-revolutionary action, I had a model of the revolutionary onslaught and what I remember at that stage came about from what I studied. I never studied a course in counter-strategies. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And not what to do with it? MR TAYLOR No Mr Chairman, I did not make a study of that. MR BIZOS Did you ever come across "The Lessons from Past Revolutionary Wars" by a Brigadier Fraser? MR TAYLOR No Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And did you never attend any lectures in which the name was mentioned? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, the only documents I had was my own statement, I did not have one of these bounded volumes. MR BIZOS Please look at page 101 and you will see that there was a telephone discussion between General van Rensburg and Brigadier van der Westhuizen, at the bottom of the page, do you see that? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And then the three names are set out: Matthew Goniwe, Mbolelo Goniwe and Ford Calata. MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And then it said "It is proposed that abovenamed persons be permanently removed from society as a matter of urgency". Do you see that? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS Now here we have a situation that a Brigadier in the JMC procedure, process has to report to a General in the Secretariat of the Security Council, has to request for a death warrant for the people. You agree with that interpretation? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I agree with Mr Bizos but if I look at this sentence there is no request just a proposal. MR BIZOS Yes. MR TAYLOR Although this is not a problem for me. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That is what I can draw the inference from what stands here. MR BIZOS And the next inference that we can draw is that not even a Brigadier in the army could order the killing of three people. MR TAYLOR It appears like that yes. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I was never involved on the level you are referring to. Communication between the regional body between these two bodies, I was not part of that. All I can remember is that Brigadier van Rensburg was the Chairman of that JMC(?). MR BIZOS Did you think that a Captain in the security police had the authority to tell you to kill four people without any reference to his superiors? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman, I did not accept that a Captain would give such an instruction but I accepted that he received this instruction from somebody else. MR BIZOS Did you ask him? MR TAYLOR No, I did not ask him Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Why not? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS You say that it happens like that throughout the word. I suppose you mean in orders given: keep the filing system in order, go and take a statement here or do some other lawful activity, do you say that killing, orders to kill were accepted without any question, without any enquiry as to why and from the orders came above? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, what I mean by that is that organisations like the CIA and others, they functioned on a need to know basis. If you received a command from your seniors in any of the organisations you accept that it would have been approved in that organisation. I believed that Captain van Zyl would not give that instruction and ask me to participate in an operation if he did not get the authorisation. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Well, what do you mean, what was the difference? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS You use this matter of innocent people, who were you to judge who is innocent and who is guilty? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Yes. Well, when did you for the first hear that this order came from someone even above Colonel Snyman, when did you first hear that? MR TAYLOR When consideration was given to apply for amnesty, then it was brought under my attention. MR BIZOS Who brought it to your attention that it came from above Mr Snyman? MR TAYLOR Initially I accepted that Major du Plessis amongst others, was aware of this, this is what I thought but I was not sure what the hierarchy or the line of command was from there. I would not have been part of such an operation of Colonel - did not have Colonel du Plessis approval because I worked under his direct command in another section from van Zyl. MR BIZOS Did Mr van Zyl tell you that he had been to Colonel Snyman and Snyman had said: "Do what is best for South Africa"? MR TAYLOR He did not use those words when he spoke to me. He told me afterwards, during this first phase of the amnesty application, that Colonel Snyman gave the instruction but the detail of the discussions and the exact wording like: "Do what is in the best interest of South Africa", those words were not discussed with me. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Only afterwards when we started consulting with our attorney. MR BIZOS Yes. When you learnt that Mr Snyman had given the order and when you learnt that it must have come from someone above Mr Snyman, did you go to Mr Snyman and ask him: "Tell me, who gave this order that got all of us into this mess"? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman, I did not do that. After Mr Snyman and I had left the police force we had little contact with one another. I saw him for the first time again during that meeting in Pretoria. MR BIZOS You were already well on your road to transformation at that stage? MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS This was complete transformation by the time you learnt that Mr Snyman and someone above him were responsible. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Your transformation was complete by the time you learnt that it was Mr Snyman and someone above him that gave the orders down to Mr van Rensburg, Mr du Plessis came - van Zyl and it came to you. MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS Your transformation was complete. MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS And you were already seeking the forgiveness of the family? MR TAYLOR No, not at that stage Mr Chairman, that came only at a later stage. MR BIZOS Came at a later stage. MR TAYLOR I made contact with the family after I had applied for amnesty. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Well what was your speculation? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Do you believe that knowing the full truth yourself and telling the full truth would have helped you in your personal condition? MR TAYLOR Definitely yes, this is what this whole process is about. MR BIZOS Yes, but outside this process you had an opportunity, did you not, to ask Mr Snyman: "Here I am having to apply for amnesty, suffering from post-traumatic shock" ...[intervention] MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS You see ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON When you went to the family in the hope that you would be forgiven, according to these minutes you were asked certain questions not so? MR TAYLOR That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Including details of the deaths of these four unfortunate people, did you not think it wise to ask around after that meeting as to where did this permission or authority come from? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER Did you take cognisance of the fact that the political leaders of that time denied that they ever gave authorisation that offences should be committed? MR TAYLOR Yes, I knew about that. MR POTGIETER Did that not motivate you furthermore to try and find out if they did not give the permission, who did and then approach Snyman and du Plessis and van Rensburg and van Zyl in this regard? MR TAYLOR I did not ask them Mr Chairman. MR POTGIETER [No English translation] MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON What has that comment got to do with the question, that you protected and kept certain people in power? The question was that when these people whom you kept in power announced for the world to hear, that they had not participated in any suchlike crimes, did it not give rise to you, not give rise to any thoughts that you should now find out where this authority came from? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, at that stage I would have liked to know who was responsible for approving this whole operation but I did not make any enquiries. I want to add however, even up till today I still want to know where this line of command has stopped. MR BIZOS You posed a question, a rhetorical question a short while ago, would the politicians not have asked: "Is it a coincidence that all these high level activists are being killed"? Is that a question that you put to yourself at the time that you started preparing to kill Mr Goniwe and his colleagues? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman, those were my own thoughts when this process of transformation started and I realised that somewhere up there there was an authority. MR BIZOS In your application, in the minutes you say that the structures decided to have them killed, do you remember that? Just have a look at page 4 ...[intervention] MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, to which document are you referring? MR BIZOS In the minutes. MR TAYLOR Yes, I have it. MR BIZOS Exhibit DD, the minutes of the meeting. MR TAYLOR I have it. MR BIZOS The 3rd line "He pointed out in response to a question that it was the top structures who decided this operation should be carried out and that the people who gave the command will be coming forward at the Amnesty Hearing" MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Which were the top structures? MR TAYLOR My line of command from Captain van Zyl, to the top. MR BIZOS A structures means a body does it not? MR TAYLOR Yes, it means a body. MR BIZOS Now Mr Snyman was not a body, he was not a structure, which structures were you referring to? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I want to indicate something to you. In the first place this whole meeting took place in English and my English is relatively good but it is not 100%, I could have made wrong word choices. MR BIZOS Would the GBS be a structure? MR TAYLOR Yes, I would regard the GBS as a structure. MR BIZOS And would that be a top structure? MR TAYLOR Yes, it would be a top structure. MR BIZOS Would the Secretariat of the Security Council be a structure? MR TAYLOR Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And would that be a top structure? MR TAYLOR Definitely, yes. MR BIZOS And would the police be a structure? MR TAYLOR Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And would that be a top structure at the head office level? MR TAYLOR Well, either on regional or headquarters level. MR BIZOS Yes. And would Cradock be a structure of the security police? MR TAYLOR Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And ...[intervention] MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Yes, it would a structure but not a top structure. MR TAYLOR Yes. MR BIZOS And would the army be a structure? MR TAYLOR Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And would people holding the position of General and Brigadier be part of the top structure of the army? MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS You had no quarrel with the words that you used in this paragraph when you were asked whether the minutes are correct? MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And would you agree that to the ordinary reader this statement that it was the top structures represented your view at the time? MR TAYLOR If I look at the meaning here, I accept it. The question was about who authorised this operation. What was I was trying to tell you is that the instructions came from the top, that is what I tried to convey to them. There is a technical problem with the word in the minutes but what I tried to say is that the command or the instruction came from the top, it was a very important aspect for them. MR BIZOS And did you say, towards the bottom of that page "It was possible the SADF were planning the same operation at this level" "at this level he was a Lieutenant, they operated independently" Did you say that? MR BOOYENS No Mr Chairman, I think my learned friend must read what is written there " At his level in brackets he was a Lieutenant" MR BIZOS Oh at his level. MR BOOYENS His level. MR BIZOS "at his level", yes. "It was possible the SADF were planning the same operation. At his level he was a Lieutenant, they operated independently" MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS You said that? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS Did you say, as appears on page 5 "When questioned regarding the disappearance of all documentation between the 16th and 26th of June 1995 at Cradock, he said: "If it was destroyed at Cradock, there should still have been copies at the regional office in Port Elizabeth" Did you say that? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS Do you agree that that is in conflict with your evidence that the files were destroyed? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, if you look at the dates referred to here, between the 16th and the 26th of June no documentation was destroyed at that time. MR BIZOS Do you agree that you said that "He strongly denied that any" "When questioned regarding the disappearance of all the documentation between the 16th and the 16th of June at Cradock, he said: "If it was destroyed at Cradock there still have been copies at the regional office in Port Elizabeth" MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS Well why did you say the files were destroyed and you described the manner in which they were destroyed if this is correct? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I have a problem with the interpretation of this paragraph. As I read it here, the people asked me if all documentation or whether documents were destroyed between the 16th and the 26th of June at Cradock, that is what this entails. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON "He strongly denied that any informers had been involved in the operation, he said they had taken a chance on the four returning to Cradock that day as they had done in the past. He said the four were definitely not followed on that day". MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON And you answered early today that on two occasions your own informers indicated to you that day that in all likelihood these - the combination of these four would be in the motor vehicle. MR TAYLOR That is correct. CHAIRPERSON When you spoke to the families you indicated to them that informers had not played a part in the stopping ...[intervention] MR TAYLOR That is correct, no informers participated in this operation. That was the question asked of me during this meeting, they asked whether informers were involved in this operation namely the elimination itself and I unequivocally stated that no informers were involved. CHAIRPERSON So your interpretation of the word: "operation" was the actual commission of the crime? MR TAYLOR Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You disregarded the information that you required to get them into custody as part of the operation? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON The ability to get them into your hands was not regarded as part of the operation. MR TAYLOR Yes, Mr Chairman. In other words to abduct them or to intercept them. CHAIRPERSON And you needed the assistance of informers to do so, not so? MR TAYLOR Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR POTGIETER "He said they had taken a chance on the four returning to Cradock that day" MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER ...[inaudible] wrongly because I understood that you knew that those four people would be in the vehicle. MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR POTGIETER And then you executed this operation? MR TAYLOR That is correct, we were not sure whether - we knew that they were in Port Elizabeth but we were not certain whether they would sleep over in Port Elizabeth with Mr Derrick Swarts or return to Cradock. There was a possibility that they would sleep over and that we would miss them. MR POTGIETER Let me take it one step further, that certainty you had came from the information you received from the informers. MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR POTGIETER So you knew that those four people would be in the vehicle, you knew they were on their way to Cradock. MR TAYLOR No, no. MR POTGIETER That was the information conveyed to you. MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman, the information I had is they confirmed that the people were, those four people were in Port Elizabeth. There was the possibility that they could sleep over. MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR No, I agree. MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, that was not abnormal to me, informers were a very prominent subject during those years and discussed during meetings for example, in that area and in Port Elizabeth. During each meeting we had discussion with the faceless people sitting there, the people who were the informers and it was very important to know these things because those people saw those informers as traitors and as part of the oppressors. MR POTGIETER Thank you. MR BIZOS Just to go for a tangent, you said earlier that your informers would have been shocked if they had learned that you had eliminated the people that they gave information about. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman, they gave us a lot of information and because of that we could establish the pattern and the whole core of the security branch was based on gathering of intelligence through the informers. MR BIZOS Where were you when the PEBCO 3 disappeared? MR TAYLOR I cannot say where I was exactly, I was in Port Elizabeth. MR BIZOS Did you become aware of their disappearance? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Who did you pick it up from? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Only with the amnesty process. MR BIZOS And where did you think they were from 1985 to 1996 when the amnesty process that you were involved in came into being, where were they for 11 years? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, I know at that stage the rumours were that they had left the country, I could not confirm this. MR BIZOS Who started those rumours? MR TAYLOR I cannot remember. I can remember the questions that were asked about this. I cannot remember whether this was done by legal teams but I know that there were rumours that they were detained at the police station etc., etc. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR Excuse me? CHAIRPERSON After they were reported missing, what happened to their files? MR TAYLOR I would accept that it would be the same as in the process which I appended before, that the difference would be here that there was no confirmation over there where ...[indistinct], their files would not be destroyed. CHAIRPERSON The files were kept for so many years? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON And not one of your colleagues came to tell you that: "Listen, these people are dead, destroy these files"? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairperson, nobody came to tell me during that time that they had died. MR BIZOS Did you know the PEBCO 3? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And did you know them as well as you knew Mr Mhlawuli? MR TAYLOR Yes, at that stage I knew them relatively well. MR BIZOS As well as you knew Mr Goniwe? MR TAYLOR Yes. MR BIZOS And if one of the PEBCO 3 had been in the car instead of Mr Mhlawuli, would you have killed him as well? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairperson. The requirement of the operation - we discussed different scenarios, that is someone who was not identified for this operation was in the motor vehicle, we would abandon the operation. As well as the fact that we foresee the possibility that an unknown person could be in the motor vehicle and then we would not continue with the operation. MR BIZOS Did the PEBCO 3 have fairly thick files also with photographs in? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Have a look at the bottom of page 6 of what you are recorded as having said at a meeting with the relatives. Page 6, the last sentence Mr Chairman. MR TAYLOR "In fact he had not even" ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Well, let me read it out then. MR TAYLOR I will read it Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, the witness has started. My learned friend is badgering. MR TAYLOR "In fact" ...[intervention] MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR "In fact he had not even known of their existence although he had heard rumours about the PEBCO 3 and was not so stupid as not to recognise a pattern but it was not discussed" Now: "He did not even know of their existence" Was that true or false? MR TAYLOR Excuse me, can I just hear that question again? CHAIRPERSON The question is that it states in here that you did not know of the existence of the PEBCO 3, is that true or not? MR TAYLOR No, I knew of their existence, there was much referral to them. CHAIRPERSON The question is, as it is here in this document, as when you had discussions with the family, did you tell them the truth? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON What is the point you want to make Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS The paragraph reads "He ...[indistinct](?) to whether if it was automatic if you were a member of Section B, you were automatically part of a hit squad" ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Security branch. MR BOOYENS "Security branch" ja, sorry. "you were automatically part of hit squad" was: "No, in fact he did not even know of their existence" MR BOOYENS "Hit squads" MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, let for the purposes of my question accept that interpretation which is a possible interpretation of it. But you said, and that is really the aspect that I want to canvass with you: "He had heard rumours about the PEBCO 3 and was not so stupid as not to recognise a pattern" What did you mean by that? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS You were being questioned about Goniwe and his associates, correct? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And in saying that you would have been stupid if you did not recognise a pattern can only mean that your killing of Goniwe and others was part of the pattern of the PEBCO 3 having been killed. MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON But from what I can gather here, unless you can point out a different interpretation, it appears that you had grave suspicion. MR TAYLOR I would agree with that. MR BIZOS And what were your suspicions? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR At that stage I had no knowledge of the circumstances of the disappearance of the PEBCO 3. MR BIZOS "In fact he had not even known of their" "existence" MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS I want to deal with the question of Mr Mhlawuli and try and get facts and circumstances from you as to whether he was merely a victim as a result of being in that car or whether he was in fact targeted. Now we know that he comes from Oudtshoorn. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And that is the South Western District. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And the UDF was divided into regions. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Under which region was Oudtshoorn? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Well, I think that you are correct in our speculation that it was in the Western Cape. Who were the regional leaders of the Western Cape in 1985, that Mr Mhlawuli would have to answer to for anything that he did? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Well, let me just tell you, you might recognise a few of the names. Trevor Manual? MR TAYLOR I know that name Mr Chairperson. MR BIZOS Cheryl Corollus? MR TAYLOR Yes. MR BIZOS And Johnny Essel? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Now, did you have any information as to what was the position of Mr Mhlawuli in Oudtshoorn to make decisions as to what plans would be put into operation in that particular region? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairperson. MR BIZOS Did you have any information as to whether or not he was formally a member of any organisation which was affiliated to the UDF in the Western Cape Region? MR TAYLOR I accepted that, that he was involved in some organisation because of the fact he was involved here. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairperson. MR BIZOS Did you try to find out whether he was one? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairperson. MR BIZOS Did you at any stage communicate with the head of the security police in Oudtshoorn to find out? MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS Do you agree that a reasonable investigator could, by the making of a simple telephone call, establish that fact? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR If I should give you now my honest opinion I have to admit that it should have been done. CHAIRPERSON The basis that was used to sentence to death was weak at that time? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS But without knowing what organisational position he held, whether even he was a member of any UDF affiliated organisation, why should you believe that he was in a position to do anything in Oudtshoorn, whatever the wishes or advice of Mr Goniwe may have been? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR Yes, this would have been better. I would have had more information if I liaised with them. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR I cannot explain this. I can remember one thing, that I sent reports through where his name was mentioned. MR POTGIETER At the best to you, that inference you make was based on information from informers that were not confirmed in terms of objective facts. MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, to an extent but it was confirmed though other sources of information. MR POTGIETER You never consulted anyone, you had these rumours that informers mentioned that Mr Mhlawuli was responsible for these structures then established in the South Western district. That was the rumours or the stories from the informers. Except for that opinion from informers, you had no other confirmation of those rumours? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER Thank you. MR BIZOS Did any of them tell you whether or not they had communicated with any security police officer in Oudtshoorn? MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Not as far as my knowledge goes. MR BIZOS Now did you liaise with Mr Eric Winter in Cradock about Mr Mhlawuli? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chair. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Not as far as I can recall Mr Chairperson. What I could, on a daily basis or just about everyday I liaised with the Cradock Security Branch. MR BIZOS All the more reason why you should have asked what they knew about Mr Mhlawuli. MR TAYLOR At that stage I asked them, and especially the three weeks before the operation, that I wanted all information concerning, on a daily basis, their movements and activities of Mr Goniwe, it should be sent to the regional office. MR BIZOS We have an affidavit from Mr Winter, that he knew nothing about Mr Mhlawuli, would you accept that? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Corroboration in this matter in relation to Mr Mhlawuli could possibly have been obtained by making two telephone calls, one to Oudtshoorn and one to Cradock and neither were made. MR TAYLOR There were not telephone calls made. MICROPHONES SWITCHED OFF MR BIZOS Did you know Edgar Ngoi? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Who was he? MR TAYLOR He was a high profile UDF person from Port Elizabeth. MR BIZOS What precise position did he hold? MR TAYLOR He was amongst others, a member of PEBCO, he attended UDF regional meetings. MR BIZOS And Stone Sizane? MR TAYLOR Yes, I remember him. MR BIZOS What position did he hold? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And Ronald White? Roland White? MR TAYLOR I recognise the name, he was under the white section at that time. MR BIZOS And Dennis Neer? MR TAYLOR Correct, he was involved in labour relations activities, trade union activities. MR BIZOS Any other position that you know? MR TAYLOR They were all affiliated with the UDF. MR BIZOS I know that, but how important was he - the UDF structures, do you know at all? MR TAYLOR On the trade union sphere he was a very important figure. I did not work with him separately because we had a separate union desk. MR BIZOS Did you know Prince Msotho? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And Twabo Ndubi? MR TAYLOR I can remember the name Mr Chairman, but once again not full particulars. MR BIZOS Doctor Marillou? MR TAYLOR Doctor who? MR BIZOS Marillou? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Henry Fazi? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS What position did he hold? MR TAYLOR He was on the PEBCO management and he also attended UDF regional meetings. MR BIZOS Yes. And Stone Sizani? MR TAYLOR I recognise the name, yes. MR BIZOS Do you know anything else about him? MR TAYLOR I talking under correction Mr Chairman, but I think he was involved in the Port Elizabeth Youth Congress. MR BIZOS Do you know of any other position that he held? MR TAYLOR No, not that I can remember. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, with some of the names I indicated that they attended UDF regional meetings. MR BIZOS I excluded those, there were in all 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 and in relation to 5 you knew nothing about them other than you had heard the name. MR TAYLOR That is correct, yes. MR BIZOS Now, would you agree that persons holding office together with Mr Matthew Goniwe who was the 11th person or one of 10 anyway, one of the 10, were much closer "trawante" than Mr Mhlawuli? MR TAYLOR Definitely yes Mr Chairman, on regional level, yes. MR BIZOS So that if the original instruction to seek out the "trawante" of Mr Goniwe, why did you not choose from the regional executive and decided - if you evidence is correct, on a person that you knew so little about and check so little about like Mr Mhlawuli? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, right from the start of this planning process and the execution of the operation we were told that it was concerning with the rural areas and the influence Cradock had on the rest of the areas. At that stage we were extremely worried that the mobilisation and the political awareness caused problems and also the implementation of the G Plan. MR BIZOS Did you think that if you left the whole UDF region members intact and you only executed Mr Goniwe and his other companions, that the UDF that represented the whole region, both rural and urban, the problems would be solved? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Alright well. Who was Mr Ficks Kobesi? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I know the name, if I remember correctly he was also involved in trade union activities. MR BIZOS Where? MR TAYLOR In the Port Elizabeth/Utenhage environment. MR BIZOS And who was Mr Emson Banda? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Or Mr Aubrey Marley? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Who was Mr Chris Mbikela? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And who was Dan Sandi? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Where did he come from? MR TAYLOR Who was Gogile Inkuinti? MR TAYLOR He was active in the Port Alfred district, amongst other involved at that time during the establishment of alternative structure in Port Alfred and environment. MR BIZOS Who was Kokele Mkwenti? No, I asked you about ...[intervention] MR TAYLOR Can you repeat the name please? MR BIZOS Kokele Mkwenti. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And who was Koleka Mkwenti? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And who was Thembile Beck? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And who was Chris Nissan? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS I know it may be a well known name but where was he from and what did he do? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS The names that I have read to you after indicating to you who were on the National Executive, are all in the rural areas and you only knew for certain about one of them and you were correct, that he came from Port Alfred, Mr Kopile Mkwenti. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Yes. Surely in order to put an end to what you call the G Plan and the terrible consequence or - ja, the G Plan, knowledge of the people in the rural areas within your own jurisdiction was more important than a comparative stranger from Oudtshoorn. MR TAYLOR Please repeat the question Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS The people who I put to you were leading people in UDF affiliated organisations whom you did not know. MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Now if that is correct, how come that you knew so little about the people putting the G Plan into operation in your own area of jurisdiction and so much about a person who came from outside? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I would say that during that time when this operation was planned I paid attention especially to the people from Cradock. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR I remember two, Mr Hashe, Mr Godolosi. MR BIZOS Please give me the names that you know. MR TAYLOR Mr Hashe and Mr Godolosi. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS What position did he hold? MR TAYLOR He was on the Executive Committee of PEBCO. MR BIZOS What precise position did he hold? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And what position did he hold? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS What position did he hold? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And did you know Mr Galele? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Yes, you got the first name correct. Who was he? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS What position did he hold? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Did you know Mr Fazi? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS What was his first name? MR TAYLOR Henry. MR BIZOS Do you now remember that he was one of the PEBCO 3? MR TAYLOR No, he was not one of the PEBCO 3 Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Was Mr Champion Galele a member of the PEBCO 3, or one of the PEBCO 3? MR TAYLOR If I remember correctly, yes Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS You see I am going to put to you that Mr Godolosi was the President, Mr Fazi was his Deputy, Mr Hashe was the General Secretary and Mr Champion Galele was the organiser. Now here was an organisation in Port Elizabeth itself, you know mighty little about the top structures of the former organisation in Port Elizabeth, how come you know so little about them and so much about Mr Mhlawuli? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, during that time, I think it was about 13 years ago, I knew all those people, I knew the organisation, I knew all their positions, 13 years is a long time. During this time and during this amnesty application I had to work very hard to gather all the facts regarding the Cradock 4, I did not do the same with these people. If I go and sit down and think deeply, I would perhaps remember. MR BIZOS Yes, I can understand that and we must make allowances for it but then equally it may well be that what you tell us about Mr Mhlawuli may be self-serving reconstruction. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Do you know Mr Edgar Ngoi? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS Who was he? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Who was the chairman of the UDF at that time? MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON Was it not Mr Ngoi? MR TAYLOR It could possibly be yes. MR BIZOS You say that you concentrated on Cradock, who was the chairman of Cradora? MR TAYLOR Mr Goniwe at a certain stage and at certain time Mr Calata acted as Chairman. MR BIZOS When do you say Mr Goniwe was the chairman of Cradora? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, any time from the beginning of 1984 to the middle of 1985 approximately. MR BIZOS So at the time of his death, you say that he was president of Cradora? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS During the period of your investigations at the end of May, beginning of June 1985, who was the chairman of Cradora? MR TAYLOR Mr Goniwe Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember yes. MR BIZOS And is that on the basis of reliable information that you received? MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Was there a president of Cradora? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And who - was there a vice-chairman? MR TAYLOR There would be yes. MR BIZOS Who was the vice-chairman? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Was there a secretary? MR TAYLOR Definitely yes. MR BIZOS Who was the secretary? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Was there a deputy secretary? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Who was the treasurer? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Was there an organiser? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR The officials of Cradoya? MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Yes, at a stage I could remember that Mr Calata was the chairman. MR BIZOS Was there a chairman or vice-chairman or a president? MR TAYLOR It would have been either a chairman or a president and he would have a secretary and a treasurer and other portfolios. MR BIZOS And who was secretary of Cradoya? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And who was the organiser? MR TAYLOR I can remember. MR BIZOS And who was the treasurer? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And who was deputy president? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Was there a COSAS in Cradock? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Did you know the names of anybody that was involved in COSAS? MR TAYLOR Well amongst others, two people who regularly visited COSAS, Mr Mkhonto and then a person I previously mentioned, Mr Madora Jacobs. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Do you know Mr Mopameni? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Nombuso Chachana, did that name mean anything to you? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Lumkile Georgiasi, does that name mean anything to you? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Let us deal with first of all, your suggestion that Sparrow Mkhonto was connected with COSAS, why do you say that? MR TAYLOR Because he visited Port Elizabeth and contacted COSAS people in Port Elizabeth. Amongst others at a certain instance, if I remember correctly, he made contact with Mr Lulu Johnson. MR BIZOS What was his age and what would his interest have been in having anything to do with the affairs of COSAS? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Does the name Victor Powani mean anything to you? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Does the name Gladwell Makahula mean anything to you? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Who was he? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Was in what? MR TAYLOR He was a member of Cradora. If I remember correctly he was on the executive. MR BIZOS Of Cradora? MR TAYLOR Cradora, Cradock Residents Association. MR BIZOS Now, I am going to put to you that you have shown singular lack of knowledge and/or memory in relation to the structures governing the Cradock organisations. Are you able to deny that in fact the president of Cradora was Mr Gladwell Makahula? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Yes, just confine yourself to the direct answer so that we can make some progress. Can you admit or deny that Mr Sparrow Mkhonto was the Chairman? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS That the secretary was Mr Matthew Goniwe. MR TAYLOR I cannot deny this. MR BIZOS That the treasurer was Mr Fil Calata. MR TAYLOR I can also not deny that Mr Chairperson. MR BIZOS And the organiser was Mr Mbulelo Goniwe. MR TAYLOR I cannot that. MR BIZOS That in relation to Cradoya executive in 1985 the president was Ford Calata, the chairperson was Mzimkhulu Zenzile, can you deny that? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairperson. MR BIZOS Neither of those two positions. That the secretary was Sopomopo Mene. MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS The secretary was Lulamele Josi Jasi. MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS That the organiser was Mbulelo Goniwe. MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS Did the name Veken Soga mean anything to you? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Yes, well you see, even I could, I think, understand that Nomsa is a woman and she was the deputy president of Cradoya. Do you agree that you know and remember very little about most of the people in the structures of the UDF affiliated organisations in Cradock? MR BOOYENS MR BIZOS MR BOOYENS MR BIZOS Yes. Very well, we will split it and then perhaps ask you which applies to each name which is going to burden the record even further. Tell us, which of these people have you never heard the name of? How many of them have you never heard the name of? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, I did not count. MR BIZOS Well, we will ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Taylor, tell me ...[intervention] MR BIZOS when the record becomes available. CHAIRPERSON if you knew these people well or to any significant extent, you would have known what and remembered what positions they held and in which organisations, is that not so? MR TAYLOR I can recognise some of the names but I cannot say with each one where that person was placed. There are names there, I can think of more names, people like Sele Jack and Michael Cheko who was at PEBCO. Some I remember better and some not. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON I do not ask these questions to test your memory, I ask these questions in order to establish whether you were in the proper position to assess the threat that you perceived they presented to the security of this country. MR TAYLOR I understand it, yes I understand it. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR BIZOS Yes, but you see, what you knew about Mr Mhlawuli also was more than - it was the same time, how many years? MR TAYLOR 13 years. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, I would not have done it. MR BIZOS Well, ...[intervention] MR TAYLOR Initially I told you which names were discussed and no other persons outside, besides those persons that were mentioned, were considered. If any other person was in the car besides those who were discussed this operation would not have taken place. MR BIZOS Let us just take Mr Mhlawuli, did you know where he was born, before I put the version to Mr van Zyl? MR TAYLOR No Mr Chair, I heard it here. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR: No. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR I just knew that Mhlawuli at time visited Cradock, I did not know he had family there. MR BIZOS The first factor that influenced you in deciding that he was a candidate for execution was his regular visits to Cradock, you told us in your evidence, correct? MR TAYLOR Amongst other yes. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Four times 0? MR BIZOS So that his regular presence at Cradock may be innocently explained that like most school teachers and other people in the world, comes holiday time they want to go to the place where they are born and where their families are. MR TAYLOR Mr Chair, that is so ...[intervention] MR BIZOS And if you knew, if you ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS The witness was still busy answering Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Sorry Mr Chairperson, what I wanted to say was, it is so that he visited there but he went to Cradora meetings there. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, if that was what he did at Cradock, we would known that, yes. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR The fact that he just visited family and was there socially? MR BIZOS Yes, if those facts are correct, his visits to Cradock were completely contra-indicating that he was involved in subversive activities and that was the reason for his visits to Cradock. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Yes, at some instances it was a public meeting. He moved regularly with the executive members, members of the management. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS And if I remember correctly from the evidence that we had in the Delmas trial, it was - there were at least many hundreds if not thousands of people that attended Cradora public meetings. MR TAYLOR I know very little of the Delmas matter. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, I cannot deny it. MR BIZOS Also that those meetings held in a hall were being recorded by the security police and transcripts were available of what was being said at that meeting, is that correct? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, in that time we definitely did it. I cannot remember the detail of every meeting. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Please answer the question. Were transcripts of the proceedings of Cradora made available to you? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember if I saw those transcriptions but I wan to add it is normal procedure to make transcriptions of such meetings, it was done throughout the region. MR BIZOS So that we can assume can we not, that the transcript of these meetings were conveyed to the security police and if you personally did not see them, other persons who were watching out for the commission of any offences at public meetings of Cradora would have studied them? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS We can therefore assume that even though, with the transcripts available and the tapes available, no witnesses would have been necessary in order to prove whether any offence was committed by any speaker, nobody was charged? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR I just want to say that public meetings that were held the speakers always made sure they did not say something that we could use against them. We experienced the same at WH11. MR BIZOS Are you serious about that? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR BOOYENS MR BIZOS Well, what did he say? MR BOOYENS MR BIZOS If speakers were careful, what was wrong with Mr Mhlawuli listening to careful speakers at public meetings at Cradora and why should that be held against him? MR TAYLOR I never said it was illegal to be there, the fact that Mr Mhlawuli was there. MR BIZOS Sir, the second ground which you gave for you deciding that Mr Mhlawuli was one of the "trawante" to be executed together with Mr Goniwe was because he attended meetings of Cradora. What I am asking you is, how does he make himself a candidate for execution if he attended meetings at which speakers were careful not to say things which were unlawful? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, I did not say the presence of Mr Mhlawuli at Cradora meetings was a motivation for his elimination. I just responded on questions put to me, what I knew of Mr Mhlawuli and one of the things that I know about Mr Mhlawuli is that he attended Cradora meetings. CHAIRPERSON No Mr Taylor, earlier in your evidence you were asked what was - what made Mr Mhlawuli so dangerous that one could gain the impression or even guess that he was likely to install these institutions of destruction in Oudtshoorn and one of the reasons you gave was that he was being influenced by Mr Goniwe and he was in the company of Mr Goniwe and he attended meetings of Cradora and Cradoya. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR BIZOS I beg your pardon Sir. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Yes, he referred to the meetings of Cradora in his evidence in chief already and not only in answer to me Mr Chairman. MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER Mr Taylor, the point is, that the attendance of these meetings places Mr Mhlawuli in the same category as hundreds of other people. MR TAYLOR I agree with this, yes. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Did you the relationship between Ford Calata and Matthew Goniwe and Mr Mhlawuli, firstly in relation to the church that their parents belonged to? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chair. MR BIZOS And that the father of the one was the choir master of the others? MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS That they were fellow teachers? MR TAYLOR I was aware of that. MR BIZOS And although there were a couple of years difference in ages and Mr Goniwe was a senior by a couple of years, they were at the same school. MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS As a labourer? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS He had standard 8 education. MR TAYLOR I did not know that. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chair, as far as I know in some instances he did liaise with COSAS. CHAIRPERSON Of what significance would that be? MR TAYLOR He was actively involved with the youth, the scholars because of his age - in Cradock. Mr Chairperson, I do not want to be out of order, I just want to make a remark what is important for me at this stage that I wish to point out especially with the Cradock situation. The organisations were closely knitted together. This did not mean that when there was a Cradoya meeting that only Cradoya members were there and the opposite with Cradora as well. Maybe more of that - they would have discussed the objectives of that organisation but there were other organisations in that town as well at that time. MR BIZOS Now, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Can we take that short break? MR BIZOS Yes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ERIC TAYLOR (s.u.o.) MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Did you know that the one pair of grandparents, the paternal grandparents were in - no the paternal were in grandparents and the maternal grandparents were in Port Elizabeth? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Right. Now, did you know as to why they left the Ciskei and they came to Oudtshoorn and whether that had anything to do with the school unrest? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, the activities were the first priority. I can just add that part of a personal file of every person had a sub-file in which the - they called the history file. There notes were made about the background of the people as sketched by Mr Bizos and that would have been put on record, yes. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman it could be, although it was more based on his present activities, we placed the emphasis on those. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, all opinions and decisions were made on the basis of only the activities of suspects, the activities in the struggle of the day. MR BIZOS Do you or do you not agree that the personal background is necessary in order to assess what administrative action may be taken before the death sentence is decided upon and executed? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, because we only formed out opinions and decisions based on the activities of these suspects. MR BIZOS Where were these informers that gave you information, in Oudtshoorn, in Cradock or in Port Elizabeth? MR TAYLOR In Port Elizabeth and in the Cradock area, in two various towns in the Cradock area. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS All the more reason why you should have asked Mr Eric Winter and his informers and his security police to give you information. MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, during those three weeks before the time I did not want to ask questions outside the normal questions to Winter. MR BIZOS Why not? MR TAYLOR It would not have been normal procedures Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON In the context of your decision to kill these four people, did you consider asking Winter and decided against it? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman, I contacted the branch on a daily basis but I went along the normal procedures. During that time I did ask that this daily information regarding Mr Goniwe would be regarded as a priority and despatched to us as quickly as possible. MR BIZOS Is this from Mr Winter? MR TAYLOR I can say specifically Mr Winter, I spoke to various people at Cradock including Mr Winter. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS In which towns did you have informers? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS When did Mr Mhlawuli go to Somerset East? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS So you say that your informer had no personal contact with Mr Mhlawuli at all? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS Yes, and did you have any other informers anywhere that my have spoken to you about Mr Mhlawuli? MR TAYLOR In Port Elizabeth, yes. MR BIZOS When was Mr Mhlawuli in Port Elizabeth to speak to - for your informers in Port Elizabeth to get information? MR TAYLOR Mr Mhlawuli visited Port Elizabeth more than once. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Whom did he visit? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS We only have your word but please let us - tell us what these informers form Port Elizabeth said? MR TAYLOR From the bits of in formation I gathered, it became clear that Mr Mhlawuli at that stage knew what the G Plan was about. MR BIZOS Well maybe, that he knew what the G Plan was about, so what? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS But that is a huge chunk that he knew about the G Plan, your informers tell you, and the rest you thought out, is that so? MR TAYLOR On the evaluation and the interpretation of the information I came to the conclusion. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS But now the G Plan, the G Plan, if it was for the purposes that you have suggested, must have been known to hundreds at least hundreds of people if Mr Goniwe was busy putting it into operation all over the place. MR TAYLOR The information I had at that stage, and this is how I interpreted it and evaluated it, was that he was going to implement the G Plan ...[intervention] MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS So how do you come to the conclusion that he was going to put the G Plan into operation elsewhere? MR TAYLOR That was the information informers provided me with, they received this information via their channels. MR BIZOS No, you are now changing your evidence Sir. You told us that the only information that you had was that he knew the G Plan, for the rest you evaluated it and drew inferences, that has been your evidence up to now. You are now adding further information as having come to you when you said the only information was that he knew about the G Plan. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR I did not say that was the only information, I said I had information that he knew about the G Plan. MR BIZOS No, at least two or three times Sir, you said it was the only information and I challenge you to listen to the record, I appeal to the members of the Committee that were listening, your counsel is there to protect you, I have the backing of my colleagues and the member of the Commission who heard you at least two or three times saying that the only information that you had was that Mhlawuli knew about the G Plan. Try another explanation. MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I did not say it was the only information that we had. Right from the start I said I had information about him visiting Port Elizabeth, attending various meetings and things - one of these things we are emphasising now is he had knowledge about the G Plan. We gathered information and all this information indicated that the idea was that Mr Mhlawuli had to establish alternative structures in Oudtshoorn. MR BIZOS Well, the record will speak for itself and I am putting to you that not only are you lying about the information that you have but you are now lying and contradicting yourself in relation as to what that information was. Have you got any answer to that suggestion? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, I am trying to tell the truth to the best of my ability as far as I can remember. ADV BOSMAN "The information I obtained was that Mhlawuli would implement the plans from Cradock in Oudtshoorn. Other information was gathered from other informers" MR BIZOS No but he may have said that more recently but the only information was that he had knowledge of the plan, it was said two or three times. Yes, no, he may be - that more recently when I put to him that was a tremendous jump, that he may have said that but he clearly said that it was the only information. ADV BOSMAN MR BIZOS Oh yes, this was before he was tied down to the question: "Was this the only information that you had"? No, thank you yes, I agree. You told us earlier on that there was also some unconfirmed suggestion that he was recruiting people. MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS Where does that come from? MR TAYLOR I heard that from an informer but right from the start I drew your attention to the fact that this information could not be confirmed. During discussion between Lotz, van Zyl and myself we mentioned this fact and the terrorist desk was not my strong point regarding exiles or remembering the activities of exiles. MR BIZOS Let us just get this on record, your informers were paid? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS And in order to get paid they had to supply some sort of information? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Now, did you know on the morning of the 27th that Mr Mhlawuli was leaving Cradock for Port Elizabeth? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman, it was only established later on after they had arrived in Port Elizabeth. MR BIZOS How was it established? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Now, you were under pressure to kill the people that you thought would pacify the situation. MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS At least three weeks had lapsed since that plan was hatched to kill them. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS You did not know precisely who was in the car until you stopped it. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Yes, but how did you know that he would be coming back in the car? MR TAYLOR We were not sure about that either. MR BIZOS You were not sure about that? MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS So that when I put the question to you: "When you stopped them on the way back, you did not know who would be in the car"? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Or some, even by your definition, innocent person may have been in the car. MR TAYLOR That was not excluded, that was a possibility, it could have happened. MR BIZOS It could have happened. Now we will only have your word for it that you would have said: well, that you would have merely have questioned them for a bit and let them go. I think that is the story that we have heard here, is that correct. MR TAYLOR That is correct, yes. MR BIZOS But now, here was an opportunity to get rid of the three people from Cradock in a war that you thought that you were involved in, what difference would an innocent make if he happened to be in the car. MR TAYLOR It would have made a big difference Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That is correct. MR BIZOS You would have to wait for another opportunity to arise for these three persons to be together. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS If you found Mr Goniwe and Mr Calata and Mr Mbulelo Goniwe, would you have killed the three? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS If you had found Mr Goniwe, Mr Calata, Mr Gladwell Makahula, would you have killed all three of them? MR TAYLOR That is correct Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And if you found Mr Goniwe, Mr Calata and Mr Victor Piwani, would you have killed them? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Even if you asked: "Who are you"? and he said: "Victor Piwani and I am the Deputy Secretary of Cradora"? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chairman. We had a specific framework of names we were working according to. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR That was outside the framework of our authorisation. Specific names were mentioned and there was no authorisation or no discussion or during the initial discussion with van Zyl and no other names were mentioned apart from these. According to me there was no mandate to kill any other person. MR BIZOS Well, just give us the names again that you say you had a mandate to kill. MR TAYLOR CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No. CHAIRPERSON Then you would have not applied. MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Only van Zyl and you? MR TAYLOR Mr van Zyl and I and at certain instances Lotz was present. MR BIZOS Yes. So that we have it on your own evidence that you are - you also conspired to kill Mr Gladwell Makahula and Madodo Jacobs? MR TAYLOR Yes, that was the names that were in the group. MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR No, I applied for the murders Mr Chairman, I did not think of the effects that the other persons would hold in for me. MR BIZOS Well, you see if Mr Mhlawuli was in the original four as you say, when did Mr Snyman give authority for him to be killed, according to you? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, he was not in the original group of four, he was in the original group of six or seven. MR BIZOS Who - when did Mr Snyman give authority for him to be killed? MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, at no stage at a discussion between Colonel Snyman, General van Rensburg, I do not at which times they discussed what. MR POTGIETER Mr Taylor, after the discussions you and the other officer testified that you had to kill these six persons to resolve this problem. MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER The decision was then that they should be killed, these people? MR TAYLOR During the discussion between myself and Captain van Zyl, yes. MR POTGIETER All of them? MR TAYLOR Yes, or combinations of them. MR POTGIETER Combinations is easier, but the fact is all of them had to be killed? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER MR TAYLOR There was no further operations. MR POTGIETER Why not? MR TAYLOR Because people who took the initial decisions never gave further instructions. MR POTGIETER But it was not necessary because you already had the instruction, it was already decided that they should be killed. MR TAYLOR I was never approached again to participate in an operation. MR POTGIETER But what was the initial instruction, to kill all six, not so? MR TAYLOR MR POTGIETER Why did you not continue? MR TAYLOR I cannot answer that question Mr Chairperson. If further instruction was given we would have done so. MR POTGIETER Thank you. MR BIZOS Please have a look at page 4 of the record of your application for amnesty. MR TAYLOR Yes Mr Chairperson? MR BIZOS Top, the first line "Captain van Zyl later informed me and gave instruction to form part of a planned operation to eliminate these four persons" MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Does that not contradict the evidence that you have given a short while ago that the instruction was to kill six? MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Would you like to try another explanation? MR TAYLOR Can Mr Bizos just refer me to which page he is referring to? MR BIZOS Yes, if you go back one page when you start your narrative, you say "Approximately two or three weeks before June, the 27th" Yes? "He gave me instructions to monitor these four persons" and then you say that he gave you instructions to have an operation. Why does the four become six? MR TAYLOR No, Mr Chair, at this stage we knew which four persons it was, the six persons was before that word: "targets for elimination" on the 27th. As I mentioned before we established, we had confirmed that these were the four persons who were in Port Elizabeth. CHAIRPERSON "Approximately two to three weeks before the 27th of June 1985, I received instructions from Captain van Zyl about the activities of these four persons and to monitor them because they were involved in activities" MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Just to finish off the day. You see, the fact that neither you nor Mr van Zyl are coming clean on this issue is that one page 48, paragraph 10 we read the following ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS MR BIZOS 48, paragraph 10. MR BOOYENS Yes, just slow down. MR BIZOS "Who both worked at the black activities of that branch and gave instruction to help me to monitor the movements and activities of the three and to implement the operation" MR TAYLOR MR BIZOS Yes. MR TAYLOR Mr Chairperson, what is the question of this paragraph? MR BIZOS How do you reconcile your evidence that it was four or seven when van Zyl says it was three? MR TAYLOR I cannot testify to the fact of what Mr van Zyl mentioned here. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR I see what you mean Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand this wrong? As I understand it, when you received this instruction mentioned was made only of three persons. MR TAYLOR Mr Chairman, it is not my ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Listen to the question. MR TAYLOR Yes, excuse me. CHAIRPERSON And during the execution of this instruction the name of Mr Mhlawuli came up. Do I understand this incorrectly? MR TAYLOR He came more to the fore pertinently as I understand it, but as I have said, earlier he did come to my attention. CHAIRPERSON MR TAYLOR Yes. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] stage Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn till half past nine tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS