amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-10-02 PORT ELIZABETH 3 NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN 4358/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54819&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/mother4.htm CHAIRPERSON: Today is October the 2nd, we are continuing with the same set of applications. Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, my learned friend, Mr Cornelius will proceed with the evidence of Mr Vermeulen. MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (Duly sworn, states). EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, you have completed an application in terms of Act 34/1995 and it was handed on the 13th of December and that is the application mentioned on page 160, 166 of the application? MR VERMEULEN: Correct. MR CORNELIUS: As appears from page 169 you gave your full co- operation to the Investigation Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the investigating team of the Attorney- General's office and you also agreed to testify against your former colleagues in the Motherwell Supreme Court trial. Is that correct? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: And as a result of your evidence inter alia a conviction followed. MR VERMEULEN: That is correct. MR CORNELIUS: Did you received an indemnity in terms of Section 204 of the Criminal Procedure Act? MR VERMEULEN: No. MR CORNELIUS: Was an opportunity given to you to make further representations to the honourable presiding Judge to be able to qualify for a Section 204 indemnity? MR VERMEULEN: That's correct. MR CORNELIUS: And you haven't yet received judgment on that? MR VERMEULEN: That is correct. MR CORNELIUS: You have read or attached the documents and records of the Supreme Court trial? MR VERMEULEN: That's correct. MR CORNELIUS: The Chairperson pointed out that we should get to the matter in hand very quickly. You were in the service of Section C(1) of the South African Police special unit there? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: And you served there from 1985 to 1992? Is that correct? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that in December of 1989 you were summoned to the offices of Mr Eugene de Kock, who was the commanding officer of the C Unit, correct? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: And yourself, Lionel Snyman, Deon Nieuwoudt and Martiens Ras were present? MR VERMEULEN: Correct. MR CORNELIUS: What instructions or orders did you receive there? MR VERMEULEN: The order which we received was to travel to Port Elizabeth, to carry out a task. MR CORNELIUS: What was this task? MR VERMEULEN: The task was to in respect of members who had defected and given information to the ANC/SACP, to eliminate such members. MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard this order as a justified one? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard it as being in the national interest? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that you left there with two Vlakplaas vehicles and you drove to Port Elizabeth. You and Lionel Snyman in the one car and Deon Nieuwoudt and Martiens Ras as well. MR VERMEULEN: Correct. MR CORNELIUS: What happened when you arrived in Port Elizabeth? Did you go to a so-called safe house and you stayed there overnight. Is that correct? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: The next morning you and Deon Nieuwoudt and the rest of your comrades travelled to a remote area outside of Port Elizabeth. Is that correct? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Would you be able to identify that area again? MR VERMEULEN: No. MR CORNELIUS: Why not? MR VERMEULEN: Because I am not familiar with Port Elizabeth and it would be difficult for me to point that area out again. MR CORNELIUS: Yes, and it has also appeared from evidence before the Commission that you were in fact misled in that all kinds of circuitous routes were taken with you to mislead you. MR VERMEULEN: That is correct. MR CORNELIUS: And that is also the reason why you gave weak testimony in the court, you were in fact misled. MR VERMEULEN: That's correct. MR CORNELIUS: When you arrived in the area, as appears from previous applications, there was a white Jetta car which had been prepared. MR VERMEULEN: Correct. MR CORNELIUS: What had been done to this car? MR VERMEULEN: Explosives had been placed in the boot and also in the passenger cabin. MR CORNELIUS: What type of explosives? MR VERMEULEN: Use was made of commercial explosive and also military type of explosive. MR CORNELIUS: And the detonator mechanism, what was that? MR VERMEULEN: The detonator was a radio-controlled detonator. MR CORNELIUS: Did you assist in the placing of the explosives? MR VERMEULEN: No. MR CORNELIUS: Were you present, should you be needed? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Who actually placed the explosives in the car? MR VERMEULEN: It was Mr Waal du Toit and Mr Kobus Kock. MR CORNELIUS: After the vehicle had been prepared, what happened then? MR VERMEULEN: We then moved back to Port Elizabeth. MR CORNELIUS: That evening, along with Snyman and Ras you returned to the so-called Motherwell crossing, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: After that, where did you go? MR VERMEULEN: From the crossing, Motherwell crossing, we went to the place where the Vlakplaas vehicle had been secreted and I stayed behind there. MR CORNELIUS: Why did you stand behind? MR VERMEULEN: I stayed behind to look after the vehicles. MR CORNELIUS: How far was this point from the Motherwell crossing where the bomb actually exploded? MR VERMEULEN: About two to three kilometres. MR CORNELIUS: Can you tell the Committee what happened later? MR VERMEULEN: I waited at the vehicles and about 45 minutes later Mr Ras and Mr Snyman arrived there, and told me that the operation had been successful. We then got back into our vehicles and drove to Pretoria. MR CORNELIUS: Did you hear the sound of an explosion or see a flash? MR VERMEULEN: No. MR CORNELIUS: Why not? MR VERMEULEN: Was too far away from that area. MR CORNELIUS: When you returned to Pretoria, did you report to Mr De Kock, Lieut De Kock? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: What would have happened, Mr Vermeulen if you had not carried out Eugene de Kock's orders? MR VERMEULEN: If I hadn't carried out the orders, there is a good chance that I would have lost my job and that perhaps I could have been eliminated. MR CORNELIUS: Did you fear that? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: As the honourable Judge said you found yourself in a Catch 22 situation? MR VERMEULEN: That is correct. MR CORNELIUS: Your loyalty would have been seriously questioned if you didn't carry out the orders? MR VERMEULEN: Correct. MR CORNELIUS: And since you possessed extremely sensitive information you would have posed a serious threat? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: You had been involved in many operations before the Motherwell operation of '89? MR VERMEULEN: Correct. MR CORNELIUS: Did you also operate on the need to know strategy? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: You were not aware of the fact that there was a ZN detonator, Soviet-origin detonator left on the scene? MR VERMEULEN: No. MR CORNELIUS: And at that stage you were not aware of the fact that you were deliberately misled by other colleagues, so that you couldn't make this identification? MR VERMEULEN: Correct. MR CORNELIUS: Mr Vermeulen, did you believe that you were acting in the national interest? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: These acts which you committed, they are obviously illegal acts, what was your political objective? MR VERMEULEN: My political objective was that the members who had given information to the ANC/SACP, they at that stage, they were my enemy. MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard these members as supporters of the ANC? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Or associates of the ANC? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times act within the normal course and scope of your duties? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Did you feel that your execution of your duties had the approval of your superiors? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that any order which you carried out, was in direct compliance with the authority structure in the security police? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Did you act in a bona fide manner? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times believe that your conduct was promoting the objectives of your employer? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: And that it enjoyed the approval of your employer? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Even though these actions were illegal? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Did you benefit personally from this Motherwell incident? MR VERMEULEN: No. MR CORNELIUS: Did you know the victims? MR VERMEULEN: No. MR CORNELIUS: Did you entertain any personal malice against these victims? MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS: You are applying for amnesty, on page 179 of the application for all common law crimes and offences which may arise from the Motherwell incident, as well as conspiracy to commit murder and being an accomplice to murder and any other civil damages which may arise from this. MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Hugo on behalf of Mr De Kock. Mr Vermeulen, can you recall whether Mr Nieuwoudt was present at Vlakplaas when Mr De Kock gave you the order? MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HUGO: Can you tell us what the precise purport was of the motive explained to you by Mr De Kock, the motive for the operation? MR VERMEULEN: That there were members in the PE security branch who had been causing problems and that an operation had to be carried out in Port Elizabeth. MR HUGO: Did Mr De Kock at any stage indicate an Askari or Askaris? MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can recall there were three people and an askari. MR HUGO: Yes, but the question is; did Mr De Kock use the word Askari or Askaris when he told you about the problems these people were causing? MR VERMEULEN: I can't answer that because I can't remember it well. As far as I can recall, I am sure that the word Askari was used. MR HUGO: And are you saying that Mr De Kock told you that these people were in the process of going over to the ANC or had already done so? MR VERMEULEN: Yes. MR HUGO: I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO MR BOOYSENS: No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR JANSEN: No questions, Mr Chairman, on behalf of Snyman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp? MR KEMP: No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP MR JANSEN VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, maybe I should just come on record to say on behalf of applicant Ras there is also no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I apologise, I overlooked you, I'm sorry. Yes, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORD: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for and on behalf of Mrs Mgoduka and Mrs Faku. Mr Vermeulen, do I understand your evidence to be that your colleagues during the preparation stages in Port Elizabeth, deliberately confused you or misled you with regard to the identities of those participating, was that the effect of your evidence? MR VERMEULEN: No, the evidence is that they misled us by not finding the proper venue where the car was prepared. MR FORD: I see. So you were aware at all times of all of those involved in the preparation of the bomb in the motor vehicle, by whom the motor vehicle was brought, et cetera? MR VERMEULEN: That's correct. MR FORD: Was Mr Lotz at any stage present? MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, I have never seen him at the scene. MR FORD: Now you have suggested in your evidence that if you did not carry out this order, there was a real chance of you losing your work and also that you could be eliminated? MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR FORD: What brought you to that conclusion, Mr Vermeulen? MR VERMEULEN: At that stage I was involved in lots of operations before that, and I know about a lot of sensitive information. MR FORD: Now you heard Mr De Kock's evidence of the relationship which he had with his men and which he stated quite clearly that what his attitude would have been if one of his men had felt unable to participate in a certain operation? MR VERMEULEN: That's correct. MR FORD: If I understood his evidence it was that it may have led to - certainly not a question of elimination of that person, he may have been less readily promoted, but there is no question of him being eliminated, just because he didn't feel capable of participating in a special operation? MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, it is not necessarily that elimination would have come from Mr De Kock. The senior people higher above could have decided something like that. MR FORD: Did you ever have any reason to suspect that if you had declined to participate in this operation, Mr De Kock wouldn't just have appointed somebody else in your place? MR VERMEULEN: He could have, Mr Chairman. MR FORD: Were you - happy is not the appropriate word, but you were ready to participate at all times? Did you have any hesitation about this operation? MR VERMEULEN: No, I didn't have any hesitations. MR FORD: Why not? MR VERMEULEN: Because when I received orders from my seniors, I always tried to comply, Mr Chairman. MR FORD: The point I am trying to make, Mr Vermeulen, is that you obeyed this order, not because you were afraid of being eliminated, but because that was the way you operated. MR VERMEULEN: That is correct. MR FORD: And I am putting it to you then, Mr Vermeulen, that your suggestion that there was a real possibility of you being eliminated in these circumstances, is just not correct. MR VERMEULEN: No, I won't say that. MR FORD: Just give me a moment, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORD CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink? MR BRINK: I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Only one question, thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen, you obeyed the order because you simply had no choice? MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS: And depending on the breach of your security measures, that will depend what type of action will be taken against you? MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may step down, Mr Vermeulen. MR VERMEULEN: Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR CORNELIUS 420 N J VERMEULEN PORT ELIZABETH HEARING AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE MR HUGO 430 N J VERMEULEN MR FORD 433 N J VERMEULEN MR CORNELIUS 434 N J VERMEULEN