amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-10-03 PORT ELIZABETH 4 WYNAND ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT 3381/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54820&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/mother5.htm MR KEMP Mr Chairman, the legal representatives amongst themselves have agreed, subject to your approval, that the following witness should be Mr W A L du Toit. Subsequently Mr De Kock, the technical people involved. If that should meet with your approval, I will ask that we just adjourn for about five minutes, because the witnesses have to reassemble on that side for the ease of the interpreters. So we will have to move to that side. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn for a few minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Mr Kemp? MR KEMP Mr Chairman, Kemp on behalf of the sixth applicant, Wybrandt du Toit. We thank for the Committee for the indulgence. We will be initially referring the witness to volume 1 of the documents before the Committee. Before I lead the evidence, Mr Chairman, you will note that during the adjournment, we have placed documents before you. It is simply a document in which we apply for a slight amendment to paragraph 9(a)(i) of the application for amendment, merely to extend the request for amnesty also to those crimes as set out in paragraph two of this notice. It follows from the same incident and it is done for the sake of completeness, in line with that done by previous applicants in this hearing. The witness is ready to take the oath. WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT (Duly sworn, states). EXAMINATION BY MR KEMP Mr Du Toit, you are the sixth applicant applying for amnesty in this incident. I want to refer you to page 145 of Volume 1 of the documents before this Committee. This is the amnesty application in terms of Section 80 of the Act, completed by you and handed in last year. Is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR KEMP Will you look at this document, it ranges from page 145 to page 164. Is this your application as prepared by you and handed in? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR KEMP The first page is just to give your names, date of birth, address, your career history and other background information. Do you confirm the correctness of this information, as put in this document? MR DU TOIT I confirm this. MR KEMP From page 151 in this document you refer specifically to the Motherwell incident. Is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR KEMP You will also find that in this document or in this volume, as from page 115, there appears the document titled Framework. Is that correct? MR DU TOIT Correct. MR KEMP Is that a document prepared by you? MR DU TOIT Yes, I prepared that. MR KEMP This document gives an explanation of your personal history, your career history, the background to the technical division of the security branch, involvement of the technical division and broadly, also the background for your amnesty application. Is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR KEMP Do you confirm the correctness of the information in this as far as it concerns you? MR DU TOIT I confirm that. MR KEMP I specifically want to draw your attention to what we are here for, that is the Motherwell incident. It is common knowledge that during the day of the 13th of December 1989, De Kock and Nieuwoudt visited you. Where did that take place and can you remember at what time more or less on that specific day? MR DU TOIT I can remember that it took place in my office in the official offices in Rebecca Street. The time I am not sure of, it could have between eight and eleven. I think during the consultation I told you that it could have been between ten or 10,30. MR KEMP You have no independent recollection of the time? MR DU TOIT No. MR KEMP Can you remember how it happened that these people met you? Did they make arrangements, did they arrange for a meeting? MR DU TOIT I can't remember such arrangements. I can just remember that they came to my office together. MR KEMP You knew De Kock at that stage? MR DU TOIT Yes, I knew him. MR KEMP How long have you known him at that stage? MR DU TOIT I knew him for about six years, I think. MR KEMP Was there a relationship of trust between you? MR DU TOIT I think there was a particular relationship of trust. MR KEMP Did you know Nieuwoudt? MR DU TOIT No, I did not know Nieuwoudt. MR KEMP Can you remember whether he came to your office together with De Kock or did they come separately? MR DU TOIT That detail I can't remember, but as I recall it, they came more or less at the same time. If they made an arrangement to come there, I can't say specifically. MR KEMP After they arrived there, what did they tell you, what was the purpose of this visit? MR DU TOIT Mr De Kock told me, he started the discussion and said there were certain problems in the Eastern Cape. This resulted from offences committed by members of the security branch and they were a security risk, and on a higher level a decision was made to eliminate these people. MR KEMP Can you remember whether at that stage it was told to you who at the higher level gave the instruction? MR DU TOIT Possibly it could have been told to me, but I can't remember pertinently. In my statement I have said that it was Genl Van Rensburg. It was conveyed to me that this decision was taken at head office, and the authorisation was given at head office. MR KEMP Was there any reason to doubt this what they told you? MR DU TOIT Not at all. MR KEMP What was the request to you? MR DU TOIT Shortly, they requested me that I should develop a mechanism to eliminate these people by means of a bomb. This should happen in the vicinity of Port Elizabeth. MR KEMP Did they explain to you why it should be a bomb? MR DU TOIT The reason for that was that the responsibility should be put before the door of the ANC. MR KEMP How would they achieve that? How would they achieve that, to blame the ANC for that? MR DU TOIT At that stage we did not discuss those details. MR KEMP At that meeting was it discussed which members of your division would participate? MR DU TOIT After De Kock had left, I had not taken this decision. I first had to survey the various circumstances, which staff were available. I gave him the undertaking that it would be done, that we would be involved, and that we would be ready by the next day. MR KEMP Would you receive any support or assistance from De Kock? MR DU TOIT Yes, to the effect, because he made a vehicle and funds available, and also members of his staff, to support us. MR KEMP And was a vehicle and cash provided to you later on, as promised? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR KEMP The money which was given to you, was it a kind of remuneration for your services or what was that for? MR DU TOIT No, the money was put in an envelope and it had to be used for the cost incurred during our journey. MR KEMP And this was just then to be used for expenses? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR KEMP When did you have to do this? MR DU TOIT It was explained to me that this was an urgent matter and it had to be done the next night. MR KEMP How would you get to Port Elizabeth? MR DU TOIT Mr De Kock would provide transport and we had to travel by car. MR DU TOIT After De Kock and Nieuwoudt left your office, what happened? MR DU TOIT I don't know whether it was immediately afterwards, it was the next hour or so, I called Kobus Kok to my office and I explained the circumstances to him, and I tasked him to put things together and to make provision for anything which might occur in the Eastern Cape. MR KEMP This Kobus Kok you are referring to, this is Jacobus Kok the fifth applicant? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR KEMP What was his position in your division? MR DU TOIT He was one of the technicians, one of the most reliable and trusted men in my division and we had a very good working relationship. MR KEMP And you trusted this man with the project of this nature? MR DU TOIT Absolutely, yes. MR KEMP Which preparatory measures did he have to take? MR DU TOIT With a task of this kind, he had to get various instruments together, and also explosives, and we had to develop a receiver which I had in my possession. I asked him to prepare all these things. MR KEMP Where did you get all these items from? MR DU TOIT Regarding the explosives, we had that in our possession. We made many tests regarding various limpet mines and got one of the techniques we researched regarding this explosive which would be used. We also used another kind of explosive. But, I could not say why we had this in our possession, but we discussed this, Kobus Kok and myself, and he explained that that was the kind of explosive we used to dispose of land-mines. We used this kind of explosive to dispose of the rest of these land-mines. The rest of the instruments were in my office. MR KEMP Where did this come from? MR DU TOIT I had a receiver in my possession, and during a research project there was a lead at the explosive division to dispose of the bombs, by remote control. I received one of these senders and the receivers and I thought it would be useful to use in an operation of this kind. MR KEMP Whom did you decide would execute this matter in Port Elizabeth? Who was the person who would be involved? MR DU TOIT There was nobody else that I could send with Kobus. Therefore, I went with him. MR KEMP When did you leave for Port Elizabeth? MR DU TOIT We went after office hours and I think Kobus picked me up at nine o'clock that evening. MR KEMP That was the vehicle made available to you by De Kock? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR KEMP Did you drive right through the night to Port Elizabeth? MR DU TOIT That's correct. MR KEMP So you arrived in Port Elizabeth early the next morning, the morning of the 14th of December 1989? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR KEMP At what time did you arrive here? MR DU TOIT I think it was round about five o'clock, it was still dark. MR KEMP What happened after your arrival? MR DU TOIT We went to a garage near the beach. We stopped there for fuel, we washed our faces. A little distance from there we called Nieuwoudt. MR KEMP What arrangement was made with him? MR DU TOIT We did not know Port Elizabeth at all. We told him where we were. He came to fetch us from there. MR KEMP Did he fetch you from where you were near the beach? MR DU TOIT Correct. MR KEMP Where did you go to? MR DU TOIT He took us to a private house in one of the residential areas. MR KEMP What happened there? MR DU TOIT When we arrived there, two of De Kock's men were there. We did not know which of these men would be involved. We found Snor Vermeulen and Snyman. They were busy preparing breakfast. MR KEMP Was there anybody else present? MR DU TOIT The two of us were there, the two men I have previously mentioned, Nieuwoudt, and also another person I did not know. I still do not know who it was. MR KEMP In your application you said it was an older person, who at a certain stage appeared to be a senior officer. MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR KEMP But up to today you do not know who it was? MR DU TOIT No. MR KEMP Do you have a suspicion who it was? MR DU TOIT After discussions I had later on, the people told me, Nieuwoudt told me actually, that it was Brig Gilbert. MR KEMP From this house, what happened afterwards? MR DU TOIT We left there in a convoy, we drove in the same vehicle we arrived there. We went to a certain point with a lot of trees. We stayed there for an hour. During this time Nieuwoudt left us and he went to fetch the Jetta. He came back where he joined us at the point where he had left us. MR DU TOIT Does that mean he went to a certain point, left you and came back later on with the Jetta? Is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR KEMP Is that the Jetta in which the explosive device was put in? MR DU TOIT Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kemp, I think we must take it from there. MR KEMP As the Court pleases. CHAIRPERSON Let him tell us what he did from the Jetta, let us take it from the time the Jetta was given to him. MR KEMP From that point on you went to a different place. MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR KEMP Where did you go to? MR DU TOIT I do not know that place. It was in the vicinity of Port Elizabeth, on the outskirts, it was in an area with a lot of trees. We stopped under the trees. MR KEMP Now just for the full information of the Committee I want to ask you, you mentioned the people whom you saw at the house, but one of the people who was here you did not mention, that is Martiens Ras. When did he get involved? MR DU TOIT As far as I can remember, I can remember vaguely, I didn't see him at this house, but he joined us somewhere on this road where he went with us to this area. We started working there, that is Kobus Kok and myself. We removed the seats and the carpets in order to place the explosive device. The other people were standing there and assisted us from time to time, handing instruments, et cetera. Then we placed the explosives in the car. MR KEMP Did any of the people who were there, assist you to assemble this vehicle and place in the explosives? MR DU TOIT They might have assisted us in assembling, but placing the explosives was done by us, the technical people. MR KEMP After the explosives were placed in the vehicle, what happened then? MR DU TOIT It was placed in such a way that it could not be - that it was not noticeable. The various charges were connected. The receiver we put in the boot and we also attached that. So it would mean, and ensured that it would be safe during a journey. MR KEMP Who would activate this system when it became necessary? MR DU TOIT We gave the code for activation to Nieuwoudt. ADV DE JAGER Before you continue. Can you just keep your hands from the microphone. I don't know whether it is you or Mr Kemp but something is making a lot of noise on our ear-phones. MR KEMP Who would be responsible for the eventual handling and the detonation of this device? MR DU TOIT We described what to do to Nieuwoudt and he would be the person who would activate the code and initiate the detonation. MR KEMP After this vehicle was prepared by you, what happened then? MR DU TOIT After we had finished our work, we got all our things together and we left the scene. MR KEMP Can you remember more or less what time it was when you finished the preparations? MR DU TOIT We left the scene, round about four o'clock that afternoon, we left Port Elizabeth at four o'clock that afternoon. MR KEMP Where did you go to? MR DU TOIT We went back to Pretoria. MR KEMP And when did you arrive in Pretoria? MR KEMP I can't remember the exact time, but it was late that night, early the next morning. I'm sorry, we arrived there the same day. MR KEMP At a later stage did you hear that an explosion had taken place in Port Elizabeth? MR DU TOIT We heard over the media that an explosion had taken place and four people had been killed. MR KEMP Did you know who those people were, the people who were the target of this bomb? MR DU TOIT No, I did not know the people. Even if they had conveyed the names to me, I would not have recognised them. MR KEMP After this had happened, were you part of the attempt to cover all this up, to cover the involvement of the security police? MR DU TOIT Yes, I was part of this cover-up. MR KEMP You know today that four people were killed because of this action? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR KEMP To take those lives, how do you feel about that today? MR DU TOIT It is never an easy situation. I am not saying that because of a lot of experience, but it can't be an easy thing for any person to be involved in the killing of other people. In my case it was very traumatic, it is still traumatic and it will remain like that. Here, at this forum, I would like to convey to the family my sympathy and to say that I am very sorry that I had an instrumental role to play in killing their relatives. MR KEMP Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, that is the end of the evidence in chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS (Indistinct ... microphone not switched on. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo? MR HUGO We have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO I am indebted to you, Mr Chairman. If you can look at page 151 of the document, there is something that is not clear to me. You describe a discussion here where you will see that De Kock has told me, on page 151. Then you refer that - "Major Nieuwoudt also told me ..." MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Was that during the same discussion where the three of you were together? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS Then you go further on page 152, page 8 of the application, where you explain how Nieuwoudt gave some detail. Was that during the same discussion? MR DU TOIT Yes, it was happening at the same time. MR BOOYENS This was this discussion in your office at Rebecca Street at the technical division. MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS That was the only time you had a discussion with Nieuwoudt? MR DU TOIT Yes. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, thank you, I have got no questions on behalf of Mr Snyman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN No questions on behalf of Ras, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS No questions on behalf of the seventh applicant, Vermeulen, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Ford? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORD Thank you, Mr Chairman. If you will just give me a moment, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER While Mr Ford is busy, I want to refer to something at the bottom of page 151. You are saying Nieuwoudt expanded and told us that "The intelligence structures determined that discussions have already taken place between these people and members of the ANC, and this gave it a very actual dimension." With this discussion is meant that it involved people who are in the process of defecting to the ANC, and they were regarded as ANC supporters, who were directly against combating the total onslaught. MR DU TOIT That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Is that correct that that was told to you at that stage? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR FORD Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Du Toit, it is so that you were convicted in the criminal trial which was held. Is that correct? MR DU TOIT That's correct. MR FORD And that conviction is presently on appeal, is that correct? MR DU TOIT That is correct. MR FORD And what is your sentence? MR DU TOIT Fifteen years. MR FORD Now Mr Du Toit, at the time of this incident, you were relatively speaking, a senior officer, would you agree with that? MR DU TOIT To what are you referring? The period or the trial? MR FORD At the time when this incident happened, when you were confronted in your office and agreed to do the necessary. MR DU TOIT In our terms it is regarded as a middle manager. MR FORD There would have been no great terror for you in questioning an order from a senior officer? It would have been legitimate for you to have done so? MR DU TOIT I think so, yes. MR FORD Or at least to understand the motivation behind an order with such drastic consequences as was the case in this matter? MR DU TOIT Somewhere in my application I have explained the way in which we operated regarding this type of operations. The motives were never questioned by members of the technical division. We never evaluated or judged those decisions. MR FORD Yes, we know that you said that in your application, Mr Du Toit. What I am asking you now, is that would there have been any serious consequences in so far as you were concerned, had you at least asked for some explanation as to why you were being required to participate in this drastic operation? MR DU TOIT No, I don't think it would have had a drastic implication. But I did not doubt De Kock's word and I did not doubt his integrity. It would not have a drastic impact. MR FORD Now you heard the questions which I put to Mr De Kock, concerning the legitimacy of orders and there must surely come a time when you question an order which is given to you? MR DU TOIT It can be like that, yes. MR FORD Now if your evidence is to be believed, Mr Du Toit "To taking of lives is never an easy decision." It is a discussion you made and you don't seem to have had any difficulty in making. MR DU TOIT To give the necessary perspective, I am trying to say with that, that I did not have any say in the decision to take lives. I got involved through preparing the explosives. MR FORD You never thought of questioning that order in any way? MR DU TOIT No. MR FORD Your involvement in these matters was somewhat removed, was it not? Specifically in this matter, you weren't required to push the button. MR DU TOIT Correct. MR FORD Your expertise was only used to plant the bomb. MR DU TOIT That's correct. MR FORD Are you saying that even in those circumstances it was a difficult decision to make? MR DU TOIT It was, yes. MR FORD Well, then why didn't you even consider questioning, Mr Du Toit? If it was difficult, and you were not going to in any way compromise your position, why didn't you consider questioning? MR DU TOIT I can't explain that to you. I will regard that as part of my work. I did not question De Kock's motivation and/or neither his integrity. MR FORD This wasn't an ordinary everyday order, Mr Du Toit, this was an exceptional order, was it not? MR DU TOIT Definitely, yes. MR FORD Hadn't you ever been required to participate in the murder or the killing of your colleagues before? MR DU TOIT No. MR FORD Well, then wasn't this a different situation? MR DU TOIT These people, according to my perception, and I am not trying to justify it here, is all I want to say, is according to my perception, they were on the point of or involved in treason, and that would prejudice the information we got. MR FORD You were aware of the drastic measures that were available in so far as the detention of individuals are concerned, at that stage? MR DU TOIT I did not have intimate knowledge, but I knew about that. I knew the guidelines. I did not have intimate knowledge of the guidelines. MR FORD You were just somebody following orders, Mr Du Toit, is that what you are saying? MR DU TOIT Perhaps not as simple as that, but I felt I received instructions and I had to do it. MR FORD And you weren't going to question those orders either? MR DU TOIT No. MR FORD Can I just have a moment, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Whose orders were you following? MR DU TOIT Chairperson, I accepted that I was following the instructions of the people from head office. This instruction was not given directly to me. We played a supporting role. We supported the activities of the security branch, or no instruction came directly from an executive officer to me. It would come via the person or persons who had a specific need and through that channel it was brought to my attention. CHAIRPERSON The only person, if I understand you correctly, who approached you, was Col De Kock? MR DU TOIT Correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The only person who had approached you was Col De Kock? MR DU TOIT That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And I don't understand what - what other possible source was there which you regarded as source, the source of orders to you? MR DU TOIT Col De Kock was accompanied by Mr Nieuwoudt from the Eastern Cape. He quickly explained all the circumstances surrounding this case and there was no reason to question this instruction. I accepted that they got the necessary clearance from head office to execute this. CHAIRPERSON Did Col De Kock give you an order? MR DU TOIT No, it was not an instruction, it was just a request. CHAIRPERSON That is what is worrying me. Did Nieuwoudt give you an order? MR DU TOIT No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Who gave you an order to go and kill those people? MR DU TOIT I accepted that this instruction came from De Kock's commanding officer. CHAIRPERSON I didn't hear you? MR DU TOIT I accepted that this instruction came from De Kock's commanding officer, and it was cleared on a higher level. CHAIRPERSON Did you for a moment think that somebody had said to De Kock go and get Wybrandt du Toit? MR DU TOIT Yes, in total, that was what I believed. CHAIRPERSON On what basis? MR DU TOIT Well, Col De Kock conveyed it to me like that, that he came from head office, with the request that these people should be handled in this way, and we were requested to play a role in this regard, regarding the elimination. CHAIRPERSON I accept that De Kock would have told you that the operation itself, I am talking about the operation, I am not talking about his instructions to you. I accept that (indistinct) this operation had been cleared by head office, but are you saying that De Kock also said to you the head office said that or somebody has said that you, Wynand du Toit, must also come? INTERPRETER There is something wrong with the microphones. MR DU TOIT No. I have mentioned previously that the instruction was that the technical component that they should become involved. I, myself as a person was not mentioned per se. I have tried to explain previously that after they have left my office, I tried to determine who were available. I could have used two other people and in that instance I would have given the instructions. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) between you and Col De Kock, to me seems to be somewhat different, for obvious reasons. The relationship between him, Ras and Vermeulen and (indistinct). The impression I get is that Col De Kock came and requested you to assist. MR DU TOIT That is correct, but he also told me that he had a mandate to do that. That was how this executive instructions worked. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps that's why Mr Ford is asking you if Col De Kock merely came and requested you to come and assist. Could you - why didn't you question that? MR DU TOIT In the spirit of the times during which we operated. Today it might be easy, after all this time, it is easy to say, but in the spirit of those times, I want to say unequivocally that there was a very strong bond of trust between the security people, and for that reason I could not question that. CHAIRPERSON That might have been so, but one gets the impression that the request or the approach by De Kock was such that you could without any consequences, have said to him I'm afraid, I don't want to eliminate some of my colleagues. MR DU TOIT I think one of the previous applicants previously said I don't think it would have been suitable to refuse such an instruction. It would have exposed you as somebody who could not be trusted, if you did not want to participate in the counter-measure against the revolutionary struggle. CHAIRPERSON If by the word "opdrag", you mean instructions or orders then we are just moving in circles. Maybe I should just leave it there. MR FORD Thank you. May I continue, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Maybe ... MR FORD I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON This is a convenient point to adjourn, I think, until two o'clock. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT (Still under oath). CHAIRPERSON Mr Ford? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORD (cont) Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Du Toit, just carrying on from the questions asked by the Chairman. It is now clear from what you say that not only or shall we put it this way, that you weren't in fact following orders, following an order, you were complying with a request, no more than that? MR DU TOIT I would have regarded it as an order in these circumstances. MR FORD Was Mr De Kock entitled to give you orders? MR DU TOIT He conveyed the order from headquarters to me and made it clear to me that this matter had been cleared and headquarters, and that he had been referred to me by headquarters. MR FORD And if I understand your evidence further, that the only reason you wouldn't have questioned such an order, was that this might have led to some mistrust, in so far as you were concerned? MR DU TOIT No, I couldn't say that that was the only reason. I say it was one of the reasons. I had no reason to doubt it. MR FORD I must just put it to you, Mr Du Toit, that in regard to this section of your evidence, it does not appear that the decision to assist in the taking of lives, was as difficult a decision for you as you made it out to be in your evidence in chief. MR DU TOIT I have said before it is never an easy decision to take. MR FORD When did your trial, the trial in which you were convicted and sentenced to 15 years imprisonment, when did that commence, Mr Du Toit? MR DU TOIT During the period February to November 1995 to July 1996. MR FORD Judgment was handed down on the 14th of June 1996, is that right? MR DU TOIT Correct. MR FORD Did you testify in that trial? MR DU TOIT Yes, indeed. MR FORD And you denied your involvement in this matter? MR DU TOIT Correct. MR FORD And you then presumably instructed your legal representatives to note an appeal on your behalf? MR DU TOIT Correct. MR FORD That appeal is still pending? MR DU TOIT Correct. MR FORD When did you decide to apply for amnesty, Mr Du Toit? MR DU TOIT Beginning of December 1996. MR FORD Why didn't you decide to apply, if you were genuinely regretful, if you genuinely wished to make amends for what you had done, the facility was available to apply for amnesty before then, why did you wait so long before you applied for amnesty? MR DU TOIT At the time of our arrest, this process or procedure had not yet been thought through properly and we hadn't yet built up any trust, confidence in the process, and that's why we decided not to deal with it on that basis. MR FORD Would it be unfair to say, Mr Du Toit, that your decision to apply for amnesty only came some time after it was clear that you had been convicted and sentenced to 15 years imprisonment, and if one has regard to the judgment, I would suggest to you it is unlikely that you will be acquitted on appeal. MR DU TOIT I don't know what ... MR FORD I'm sorry, you don't understand the question? MR DU TOIT No. MR FORD I will repeat it. MR DU TOIT Please do. MR FORD Yes. You applied for amnesty only after it was clear to you that you had been convicted and sentenced. Correct? MR DU TOIT Correct. MR FORD In that trial you lied, you said that you had not been involved. That's correct? MR DU TOIT Correct. MR FORD You noted an appeal, you have agreed to that, and what I am suggesting to you, and you are not a "regsgeleerde" as they say, so you don't have to comment if you don't wish to, that if one has regard to the judgment, there is not much chance of you succeeding on appeal. MR DU TOIT On the basis upon which we should have or would have conducted the appeal, we had no other reason at that stage or other options. We had to put the process in motion to get to this point. MR FORD Isn't this just a last-ditch attempt to avoid being in prison for 15 years, Mr Du Toit? MR DU TOIT That might be. MR FORD Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORD CHAIRPERSON It is a choice the law gives him, Mr Ford. MR FORD That is so. That is so, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? MR BRINK No, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK ADV POTGIETER Mr Du Toit, the section in which you worked, was that a part of the security police, the security branch? MR DU TOIT Yes. ADV POTGIETER It was the technical section within the security police? MR DU TOIT Yes, it was a section of the security branch. ADV POTGIETER It was a section of the security branch. MR DU TOIT Yes. ADV POTGIETER Did you ever have any doubts as to whether the mission or authorisation had been given from up high for this operation? MR DU TOIT I never had any such doubts. ADV POTGIETER Who was your immediate superior at that stage? MR DU TOIT The chiefs varied at the time. I think it could have been Brig Hellberg. ADV POTGIETER Did you inform him of this incident? MR DU TOIT No. ADV POTGIETER Or this request to carry out an order? MR DU TOIT No. ADV POTGIETER Why not? MR DU TOIT I can't remember the detail exactly. The 14th of December is a time when a lot of people are on leave and even if he had been there, I wouldn't necessarily have gone to him with this request. ADV POTGIETER Why not? MR DU TOIT It was a covert operation which was carried out on a one-to-one basis and on a need-to-know basis, and only people who were actively involved would have known about it. ADV POTGIETER But you had to use one of the members of this section in the carrying out of this operation and in regard to certain devices and things which belonged to this unit, you had to use these in the carrying out of the operation. MR DU TOIT Correct. ADV POTGIETER Didn't you require permission for that? MR DU TOIT I was a sub-commander of the unit and I did have some leeway to act, and to use equipment of that kind. I didn't need specific permission to use that. ADV POTGIETER So you could just take whatever you liked and use members and launch an operation somewhere else, in another division? MR DU TOIT No, I don't think it was that simple. All I am trying to say is that to put the matter in perspective, the technical section wasn't office-bound. We functioned on a national basis, and we had a multiplicity of tasks. In other words, there was a great interaction of people, and movement of people in and out of the office, and it wouldn't have been strange if people weren't in the office. There was a constant interchange of people. ADV POTGIETER Did you tell your chief, your superior, that you would be absent from the office and that you were taking Mr Kok with you? MR DU TOIT No, I didn't. ADV POTGIETER Why not? MR DU TOIT I saw fit to limit the information and not to share it with just everybody. ADV POTGIETER Did you sneak out of the office? MR DU TOIT No, I wouldn't describe it as sneaking out. We left there during normal office hours. We just weren't in the office the next day. ADV POTGIETER But the people who worked with you? MR DU TOIT No. ADV POTGIETER That you weren't going to be there? MR DU TOIT No. ADV POTGIETER Why not? How did it come about that they didn't know that you were going to be absent? MR DU TOIT Well, the next day I simply wasn't present at the office and I think it would have been unwise to publicise an operation of such great sensitivity, so we limited the information to the members directly involved. ADV POTGIETER Did you try to be absent from the office in an inconspicuous way and then sneak back quietly? MR DU TOIT I wouldn't describe it as going back on the quiet. We travelled a lot and it wouldn't have raised many eyebrows if we weren't in the office on a particular day. ADV POTGIETER Yes, but you wanted to take part in this operation in a totally inconspicuous way. MR DU TOIT Yes. ADV POTGIETER Why? MR DU TOIT Well, an operation of this nature is something which one can't carry out in secret, if a lot of people know about it, I tried to limit the number of people that knew. ADV POTGIETER Yes, but what about your superior? Why was it necessary to be absent from the office in an inconspicuous way, so that even your superior wouldn't know about it? MR DU TOIT We travelled round a lot, we were often absence from the office. ADV POTGIETER I understand that, but I am trying to get you to answer the question, as far as your chief is concerned. Why was it necessary for you to slip away from the office unnoticed to take part in this operation? MR DU TOIT As I have already said, I can't remember whether he was there or whether he had already gone on leave. I can't recall the specific circumstances. ADV POTGIETER That may be, but you are saying that you wanted to be absent from the office without anybody noticing, and that applied even to your chief, that he shouldn't be aware of that. Is that what you are saying? MR DU TOIT Yes. ADV POTGIETER So I am trying to understand what the reason for that would have been. If you were convinced there had indeed been authorisation for the operation, why was he not supposed to know. That's the point I am trying to clarify. Or did you perhaps have some doubt as to whether the operation had indeed been authorised? Perhaps you knew that this was such a radical operation, that it was actually a special favour which you were doing for your comrades? MR DU TOIT No, I wouldn't have seen it in that light. It was certainly not a favour, it was a high profile operation, and the participants in this operation had to be limited to a small a number as possible, for secrecy purposes. ADV POTGIETER Did you not trust the chief? MR DU TOIT No, I trusted him implicitly. ADV POTGIETER But then, I still don't understand your answer. I will try again. Why didn't you tell him what you were going to do? MR DU TOIT He wasn't to take part in the operation and I was going to take part and had I conveyed the information to him and had something gone wrong with the operation, then there would just be extra evidence against us. ADV POTGIETER So in the normal course of events, if you were to take part in operations, you would have notified him? MR DU TOIT As far as normal technical tasks are concerned, yes, but in the case of extraordinary operation such as this, information was always limited to the minimum. ADV POTGIETER Was this the first occasion on which you acted in such a way, namely to keep your chief in ignorance of what you were doing? MR DU TOIT I don't know whether that was the first time, it was probably not the only time. ADV POTGIETER Was it necessary for Mr De Kock, with whom you said you had a special bond of trust, was it necessary to convince him to help you, to assist you in this operation? MR DU TOIT Do you mean by persuade, do you mean by means of an explanation? ADV POTGIETER Yes, were you sceptical or critical or was it necessary for him to argue with you, and to justify the operation, et cetera? MR DU TOIT Well, he explained the matter as in much detail as he could, and I accepted that the matter had been dealt with on the divisional ground level and even higher up at head office. And justification for the operation was not considered by me at all. I accepted that a decision had already been taken. ADV POTGIETER You said that you actually saw this as an order in those circumstances? MR DU TOIT Correct. ADV POTGIETER So it wasn't actually necessary to try to convince you of the desirability or the justification for the operation? MR DU TOIT Well, it was explained to me, but it was not necessary for them. ADV POTGIETER So they actually did it purely as a courtesy from a colleague, but it wasn't actually necessary? MR DU TOIT No, they did explain the desirability or the necessity for this operation. I didn't decide of my own accord to take such drastic action. ADV POTGIETER Mr De Kock testified that during a discussion where Nieuwoudt was present, there was at no stage any reference to the ANC and alleged contact between the ANC and the people who were to be eliminated. MR DU TOIT Yes, that's what I heard and that is what I can recall. ADV POTGIETER Is that your recollection? MR DU TOIT Yes. ADV POTGIETER But it wasn't necessary for them to give you any details regarding the justification of the operation and so forth? MR DU TOIT Well, they did sketch it to me. ADV POTGIETER So it wasn't an important aspect for you? MR DU TOIT Yes, it was. What was told to me basically, was that these people would go over to the ANC and that that would jeopardise the whole intelligence network and people's lives would be endangered. ADV POTGIETER Or Mr De Kock could have told you look, Mr Du Toit, we have to take part in an operation, head office has sanctioned it and it is important, it is an urgent matter and you have to help us with an explosive device. Would that have been sufficient for you? MR DU TOIT I assume that that would have been good enough for me, if I had to hand it to him for own use, yes. ADV POTGIETER So the reasons and the detail, et cetera, that wasn't of such critical importance to you. You had a very special bond of trust with De Kock and you could simply take his word for it? MR DU TOIT Yes. ADV POTGIETER Did Mr De Kock testify against you at the trial? MR DU TOIT Yes. ADV POTGIETER Did he contradict your version that you didn't know anything about this incident? MR DU TOIT Was that during the criminal trial? ADV POTGIETER Yes. MR DU TOIT Yes. ADV POTGIETER So he contradicted your version? MR DU TOIT Yes. ADV POTGIETER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Do you want to re-examine? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMP Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Kemp on behalf of Mr Du Toit. Only one aspect. Mr Du Toit, if you look at page 152, it is page 8 of your submission to this Committee. The 11th line from the top it starts, at about line 8 - "They told me that it was a matter of extreme urgency since there was a lot at stake and the people had to be eliminated as soon as possible, according to head office instructions." Is that correct, is that how it was conveyed to you? MR DU TOIT Yes, that's correct. MR KEMP I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are excused, Mr Du Toit. MR DU TOIT Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED