amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-11-06 PORT ELIZABETH 4 GERHARDUS JOHANNES LOTZ 3921/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54828&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/pebco3.htm CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS My apologies Mr Chairman, I should have told you a long time ago. CHAIRPERSON Yes, not only you, I just mean everybody should tell us the order in which you are going to deal with this thing, if there is such an agreement. ADV BOOYENS Mr Chairman, as reached between the legal representatives as I understand it, will be Lotz, Snyman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just minute - yes, Lotz, Snyman? ADV BOOYENS Lotz, Snyman and Niewoudt will be the next three. CHAIRPERSON I see, those are your clients? ADV BOOYENS Yes, then I will be finished hopefully Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes and thereafter, do we know already or we will decide then? ADV LAMEY No, Mr Chairman, thereafter my client will give evidence and then ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Is that Mr Beeslaar? ADV LAMEY Mr Beeslaar and then Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole thereafter. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. ADV BOOYENS May I proceed Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV BOOYENS I call Mr Lotz. ADV DE JAGER Your full names? MR LOTZ Gerhardus Johannes Lotz. GERHARDUS JOHANNES LOTZ (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY ADV BOOYENS Mr Lotz, you are an applicant in this application, is that correct? MR LOTZ That is. ADV BOOYENS Do you have the Annexure to your application for amnesty in front of you? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Do you confirm the correctness of page 1? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV BOOYENS Do you confirm the information given on page 2? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS And on page 3? MR LOTZ That is correct. ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ The identification of exiles, persons who left the country. ADV BOOYENS Were you aware of the organisation Pebco? MR LOTZ Yes, I knew of them. ADV BOOYENS Let us talk about what you established personally in your own investigation, did you ascribe any specific role to them? MR LOTZ All that I can say is, many of the persons who left the country were either members of Pebco and PACO and that type of organisation. ADV BOOYENS From what was said at briefings or what you discussed with your colleagues, what was the impression that you had regarding the activities of Pebco - in a broader sense? MR LOTZ They were for more the general Black population in the townships. ADV BOOYENS According to what you were told, did they play any role in the general unrest that took place? MR LOTZ That is correct. ADV BOOYENS How important was this role? MR LOTZ At one stage by means of the consumer boycotts, the rent boycotts and the unrest which was taking place and this was primarily started or caused by them to revolt against the Government of the day. INTERPRETER The speaker cannot hear. ADV BOOYENS Did you know the Pebco 3 as they are now known? MR LOTZ I did not know them personally but I knew a bit about them. ADV BOOYENS Did you know their names and their activities? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS You are now applying for deeds and neglects which arise from the abduction and murder of these three people? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Did van Zyl tell you that it meant that some of these people had to be eliminated? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Did he explain to you why it was necessary that these people had to be eliminated? MR LOTZ He told me briefly that all other attempts to curb the unrest had failed and that this would be the only solution to save the situation. ADV BOOYENS You as a policemen who worked at grassroots level, what was your impression regarding the situation at that stage? MR LOTZ If I can put it - it was very close to anarchy and total chaos, petrol bombs, the burning of vehicles, attacks on policemen and their houses and these happened on a daily basis. ADV BOOYENS How effective was your policing? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ No, it did not, there was more anarchy and things just got worst. ADV BOOYENS Were you informed that the operation was authorised by a higher authority? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS You accepted it? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS At that stage you were a Sergeant? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS How old were you? MR LOTZ 24. ADV BOOYENS After this was told to you and taking into account your own background knowledge, were you satisfied that you could participate in this operation? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Were you satisfied that for political purposes it was essential that this operation be carried out? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS As far as you were concerned, was there any other motive other than the political activities to stop these political activities? MR LOTZ No. ADV BOOYENS You were furthermore told that Roelf Venter and the Askaris were here? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS What instruction did you get then, what did you have to do? MR LOTZ I had to go to Glenconnor to pick up the Askaris there and then I had to take them through to Walmer to the township or the residential area there that was near the airport. ADV BOOYENS Did you drive to Glenconnor? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV BOOYENS With whose vehicle? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Did it belong to the security branch or Vlakplaas? MR LOTZ I think it was a vehicle from Vlakplaas. ADV BOOYENS Did it have tinted windows or not? MR LOTZ Yes, it did. ADV BOOYENS You then left for Glenconnor, were you told which Askaris you had to bring? Did you have any names or had they been contacted and told to be ready? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS How many did you fetch there? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS You picked them up and moved towards the airport? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS And you waited outside the airport at Walmer? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS You had a radio with you - a portable radio? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS What was explained to you, what did the Askaris have to do? MR LOTZ Their primary purpose was to intercept these people at the airport and to place them in the Kombi. MS HARTLE ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON MS HARTLE CHAIRPERSON MS HARTLE In respect of those facts which are common cause, we have no objection but generally everything is being put to the witness as to what should follow. CHAIRPERSON I suppose Mr Booyens will bear in mind facts which are in dispute and not ask leading questions on that. ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS MR NYOKA CHAIRPERSON MR NYOKA CHAIRPERSON I thin you people are entitled to object to question which you feel are leading questions but certainly witnesses should be guided so as not to come and tell us - give us irrelevant information but you are perfectly entitled to raise an objection if a leading question is being asked. MR NYOKA I wish to register my objection strenuously, this is leading question that has been the trend with other witnesses. ADV BOOYENS Mr Chairman, I would like to deal with the objection if my learned friend can tell me which leading question is he objecting to. MR NYOKA ADV BOOYENS Can we stop this bickering and continue with the matter Mr Chairman? ADV DE JAGER ADV BOOYENS Certainly Mr Chairman. I think before the objection was raised, you were at the airport? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS What happened at the airport? MR LOTZ If I take it from Walmer, we received a radio report that the persons had approached in a bakkie, we moved the Kombi into the terrain of the airport and parked in the parking area near the departure hall. I think shortly thereafter the bakkie arrived, they parked and the Askaris got out of the vehicle, moved towards the bakkie ...[intervention] ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS You say that the Askaris moved to the vehicle, what happened then? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS At that stage, were you still in the Kombi? MR LOTZ That is correct. ADV BOOYENS The Askaris came back as well as the three people they brought with them? MR LOTZ That is correct. ADV BOOYENS Was there any struggle, how did they bring these people - just explain to us. MR LOTZ They merely walked with these people to the Kombi and they got into the Kombi and we left. ADV BOOYENS So, the other three people got into the Kombi without any struggle, no force was used? MR LOTZ No. ADV BOOYENS You then left for a little path in the field near the airport? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS ADV BOOYENS Was the vehicle in which they arrived at the airport, was it also brought there? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Thereafter did you and Captain van Zyl depart, is that correct? MR LOTZ No. ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ Captain van Zyl left in his vehicle and the Askaris left in the Kombi with him. ADV BOOYENS Were the three deceased still in the Kombi? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV BOOYENS What happened to the vehicle - that was the vehicle of the deceased? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Was there a reason why this vehicle had to be burnt? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS You did not drive it yourself? MR LOTZ No. ADV BOOYENS You then went to the rubbish dump at Kwazakele, is that correct? MR LOTZ That is correct. ADV BOOYENS What happened there? MR LOTZ The vehicle was set alight, I think the petrol pipe was cut off and the petrol could run out freely and then it was set alight. ADV BOOYENS Did you and Niewoudt then leave for Post Chalmers? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Were you alone in the vehicle? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS What time did you reach Post Chalmers? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS It was late in the evening? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV BOOYENS Where were the Pebco 3 when you arrived there? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS What if anything, happened there? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS The Askaris? MR LOTZ They themselves were not present at the interrogation or the discussions. ADV BOOYENS Were there any assaults? MR LOTZ No. ADV BOOYENS Where were the people taken then a bit later - the deceased? MR LOTZ They were in the garage which was just behind the house, they were locked up there. ADV BOOYENS Did it have any windows or anything where they could get out from? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Did you go to sleep? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS By the way, who were all present at Post Chalmers when you an Niewoudt arrived there? We know that the three deceased were there, we know that Niewoudt was there because you referred to him and we also know that van Zyl was there, who else was there that you saw? Did you see the Askaris there? MR LOTZ Yes, they were there and Captain Venter and Warrant Officer Beeslaar. ADV BOOYENS You then went to sleep, what happened the next day? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS What time did this meal take place? MR LOTZ It could have been at any time between 10 and 12 the morning. ADV BOOYENS That is the morning? MR LOTZ Yes, it was during the morning. ADV BOOYENS What happened further? MR LOTZ At one stage Colonel du Plessis arrived, he spoke to us all. He went to Lieutenant Niewoudt and Captain van Zyl, he spoke to them but I cannot remember what it was about. ADV BOOYENS Did he remain behind or did he leave? ADV DE JAGER At time did he arrive and who was all present when he did? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS You already knew then that the people were to be eliminated, is that correct? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV BOOYENS And you also knew that the idea was that they were to be burnt? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS And when was this elimination planned for? MR LOTZ It was planned for the evening. ADV BOOYENS What did you do the rest of the day? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Later that evening when it was dusk, what happened then? MR LOTZ The people were given coffee, there was a sleeping drug in it which was provided by Captain van Zyl or Lieutenant Niewoudt. It was put in their coffee and given to them, shortly thereafter they fell asleep and then the people were taken out of the garage one by one and they were eliminated. ADV BOOYENS Who did the shooting? MR LOTZ Captain van Zyl shot the first person, Lieutenant Niewoudt the second and I shot the third. ADV BOOYENS Did you use the same weapon or different weapons? MR LOTZ We used the same weapon. ADV BOOYENS What was it? MR LOTZ It was a .22, it was equipped with a silencer. ADV BOOYENS Thereafter the bodies - what was done with the bodies of the deceased? MR LOTZ The wood was placed in a large pile in the back yard and the people were carried to the wood, put on top of it. ADV BOOYENS All three of them? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV BOOYENS And? MR LOTZ It was set alight and diesel was poured over. ADV BOOYENS Were the bodies burnt out completely? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS You heard - I will try to include certain of the allegations that were made that these people were actually not murdered that evening. You heard the statements which the other people made, that they were apparently seen days after this in Port Elizabeth, is that correct? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV BOOYENS Will you apply for amnesty for a murder that you did not commit? MR LOTZ No. ADV BOOYENS Allegations were also made that it can be possible by Mamasela, that all three the people were seriously assaulted over a long period of time, that they were literally beaten to death and that they were finally transported in a brown vehicle, in other words, the shooting and the burning is rubbish, it never happened, what is your reaction to this? MR LOTZ That is not how it happened, what I said is what happened. The people were eliminated there, they were not assaulted, they were not beaten to death, this is all untrue. ADV BOOYENS You have already said that the people were not assaulted, if you had assaulted the person would you have applied for amnesty? MR LOTZ I would. ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ I cannot say why they would have assaulted these people. ADV BOOYENS But you have no knowledge of an assault, we know that you were not there the whole time? MR LOTZ In the period that I spent there, there were no assaults. ADV BOOYENS Did you see any signs on any of the people of any assaults, I mean marks or blood or anything? MR LOTZ No, there were no such signs. ADV BOOYENS When these people died, were the Askaris and Roelf Venter still there? MR LOTZ No, only Captain van Zyl, Niewoudt and myself were there. ADV BOOYENS It was only the three of you? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS I tried to let you testify as briefly as possible, do you confirm the description as set out by you in the application as to how this incident took place? MR LOTZ That is how I can remember them. ADV BOOYENS On page you also deal with the political objectives. MR LOTZ That is correct. ADV BOOYENS Do you confirm this? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV BOOYENS Do you have anything that you wish to add? MR LOTZ No, I accept that this is correct. ADV BOOYENS Before this application was launched you were not mentioned by any of these people, Mr Venter or the Askaris? MR LOTZ No, I have no knowledge of anybody who referred to me. ADV BOOYENS How do you feel today twelve years later regarding this incident and how it took place? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Did you think that your actions - did it have any personal benefit or advantage for you? MR LOTZ No, it was seen from the objective of a political objective, it was part of my work to bring about normality in the Port Elizabeth area. ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ Under those circumstances no, with the violence and the unrest these things would not have worked. ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ Those people were much too afraid and they were too intimidated to come forward. Up to today there are still people who fear for their lives, if it would become known that they would testify in cases or if it was to be made known that they were informants. ADV BOOYENS Speaking of informers, a statement was made by Captain van Zyl about your feelings towards informants and how you protected them and the fact that one policeman would not easily tell another about his informer. MR LOTZ That is correct. If I had recruited an informant I would have told it to my senior Captain van Zyl and discussed it with him and he would have had knowledge of this. Other person who worked with me would have had no knowledge of this and the reason being for the protection of the informant and to keep his identify a secret. ADV BOOYENS Your contact with the informant, would it have taken place in such a manner that his identity could be protected? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ No, not as far as I can remember. ADV BOOYENS I just want you to qualify the "No", "No, I cannot remember or their faces were not covered up. MR LOTZ No, their faces were not covered up while I was in the vehicle. ADV BOOYENS The point to which you drove towards, I think it was about a half a kilometre further, am I correct? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ No. ADV BOOYENS And you did not see when they arrived at the other side because you and Niewoudt only arrived later? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS While they were outside or at Post Chalmers rather, did you see the three deceased? MR LOTZ Yes, I did, I saw them often. ADV BOOYENS MR LOTZ No, they were not. ADV BOOYENS You confirm the political objectives and the contents of your amnesty application, is that correct? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON In the garage, were they handcuffed? MR LOTZ No, not to my ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Or in - did somebody during the night stand guard to make sure that they would not escape? MR LOTZ That is correct, the Askaris slept in the Kombi in which they took the people to Post Chalmers and that Kombi was parked in front of the garage. CHAIRPERSON You must have heard the name Joe Mamasela, especially recently? MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON Was he one of the Askaris who were there? MR LOTZ ADV SANDI Have you seen his face on TV sometimes? MR LOTZ ADV SANDI MR LOTZ ADV SANDI MR LOTZ ADV DE JAGER Presumably his face is now just 12 years older? MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON Could there have been about four Askaris? MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think maybe we should clarify that. I think you are right, it seems to me on the papers that there was a Black member of the security branch who would normally not be regarded as an Askari. MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Lotz, you are still under oath. GERHARDUS JOHANNES LOTZ (s.u.o.) MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON Mr de Villiers? ADV DE VILLIERS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Lotz, you said it is possible that someone other than Lieutenant Niewoudt drove the vehicle from the airport. MR LOTZ ADV DE VILLIERS MR LOTZ ADV DE VILLIERS Is it correct to say that you cannot recall specifically that he did participate? MR LOTZ If I say participate in an interrogation, it can be - I know that at one stage I was present to listen when Lieutenant Niewoudt was busy and that Captain van Zyl could also have been there. I withdrew at a later stage because Lieutenant Niewoudt spoke to them in Xhosa which I did not understand. ADV DE VILLIERS Is it correct to say that Lieutenant Niewoudt did the interrogation? MR LOTZ He did it most of the time, he spoke to them mostly. ADV DE VILLIERS There was also talk of these activists being shackled to rings in the house. MR LOTZ I have no knowledge of such events. ADV DE VILLIERS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DE VILLIERS CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis? ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ That is true. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ No, I was not present. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you comment regarding the evidence that was given here, that the purpose of the operation was indicated to Captain Venter as being interrogation and elimination? MR LOTZ I cannot reply to that, I was not present. ADV DU PLESSIS But you do not doubt that there was evidence that Captain Venter was only told - was not told in detail of the purpose of the operation. MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS What were the Askaris used for in the operation according to you? MR LOTZ To intercept the people at the airport. ADV DU PLESSIS And what was the reason for this? MR LOTZ They were not known in this area, this would eliminate the local people from being used. ADV DU PLESSIS Do you agree that the Askaris were also used to supervise the activists in the bus on the way to Post Chalmers? MR LOTZ That is correct, I accept that as the reason as to why they had to go with us. ADV DU PLESSIS Your experience as a security policeman or arising from your experience as a security policeman, would you say that interrogations where serious assaults took place, that this would have taken place in the presence of the Askaris under these circumstances? MR LOTZ I cannot say, nothing like this happened in my presence - I cannot really answer you on that. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you remember a specific place after you were at the airport, the place along the way where you met one another? I cannot remember if you mentioned it in your application. MR LOTZ The little path? ADV DU PLESSIS Yes. Can you explain to us where it is? MR LOTZ If one goes from the parking area of the airport and you drive towards the T-junction where one turns right to get onto the road that goes to Humewood or Walmer, if one turns left then you are on a gravel road that later leads to the cargo section of the airport. ADV DU PLESSIS Is that where it took place? MR LOTZ That is true. ADV DU PLESSIS Would you describe it as being on the side of the sea or the ocean? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ Yes, you could put it like that. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ If one regards Port Elizabeth as such, one can say that it was on the ocean side of the town. If one goes to the other side one would have gone into town and if you turned left you would have gone in the direction of the ocean but it was quite a distance from the ocean. ADV DU PLESSIS What vehicle did you drive from the airport to where you turned off? MR LOTZ The Kombi, I was in the Kombi. ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Beeslaar will testify that he looked into the minibus at this specific place and his evidence will be that he saw three unknown Black men in the minibus and he says that as far as he can remember their faces were covered - this is his evidence as far as he can remember, now you were in the minibus, can you comment on this? Is he correct or is he wrong? MR LOTZ To tell you the truth I cannot even remember that I saw him there - their heads were not covered, I was with them in the minibus, I cannot say that he was there or not. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ No, as far as I can remember they were not covered. ADV DU PLESSIS He says that as far as he can remember and you say that he is remembering these facts incorrectly. MR LOTZ Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ He played a very small role. ADV DU PLESSIS Almost no role? MR LOTZ Yes, you can say almost no role. The ultimate purpose of the operation, one cannot say that he played a role in this. ADV DU PLESSIS Do you agree if I say that he just accompanied Captain Venter? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ I accept it as such. ADV DU PLESSIS As I understand, your evidence is that from that path you departed to Glenconnor, do you remember how many vehicles left for [intervention] MR LOTZ No, it was Post Chalmers. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ No, everybody left. I think Lieutenant Niewoudt and I remained behind after which we left, I drove his vehicle and he drove the vehicle of the deceased. ADV DU PLESSIS So, there was at least the vehicle of the deceased and Lieutenant Niewoudt and the minibus was there and the Nissan Safari was also there which Captain Venter drove. MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS So you do not know where the other vehicles went thereafter except the vehicle that you and Mr Niewoudt drove? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS Can you recall exactly who was there? MR LOTZ Captain van Zyl was there, there were three people there, the Askaris were there as well as Captain Venter, Warrant Officer Beeslaar. ADV DU PLESSIS What did you do when you arrived? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS I accept that it did not take very long before you went to bed? MR LOTZ A short while passed, Niewoudt spoke to the people at one stage and nothing strange happened further. ADV DU PLESSIS I suppose you were very tired at that stage? MR LOTZ It might be possible. ADV DU PLESSIS So, nothing was formally discussed or no meeting was held? MR LOTZ No. ADV DU PLESSIS The next morning, can you recall exactly what happened then? MR LOTZ ADV DE JAGER MR LOTZ I will. ADV DU PLESSIS Can I just refer you to your application. In the application you said "I went to bed and the next morning Roelf Venter and the Askaris departed while Lieutenant Niewoudt, van Zyl and I remained behind" and that is on page 7 Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon - paginated page 7 and page 7 of his application, the 3rd paragraph. MR LOTZ That is true ADV DU PLESSIS Do you agree with me? MR LOTZ Yes, I do. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ I hear what you say. I - or rather, as I can remember they were there - I can be making a mistake, I concede that I can but as far as I can recall they were there. ADV DU PLESSIS But you do concede that in view of your memory it could be a problem? Would your reply remain the same with regard to the time that they departed from Post Chalmers? Your evidence was that they left the morning together with the Askaris, their evidence is that by dusk that evening that was when they departed. Would you be prepared to concede that you could also be making a mistake in that regard? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS Can I just say that as they recall it was also after they had braaied but it was in the evening. MR LOTZ No, the barbecue was held in the morning - during the course of the morning. ADV DU PLESSIS Are you prepared to concede that you could possibly be wrong as to the time of their departure? MR LOTZ To say that they left at dusk, I find that too late - that was too late, they could have left early in the afternoon but after they had left I went to Cradock once again. ADV DU PLESSIS Do you concede that it could have been late afternoon? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV DE JAGER ADV DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER ADV DU PLESSIS I have already said that they left in the evening. ADV SANDI ADV DU PLESSIS ADV SANDI ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Go on, go on. ADV DU PLESSIS As it pleases you. To just put it clearly, I want to say that in his statement Mr Beeslaar says that Do you remember whether the Askaris left with them? MR LOTZ Yes, they did. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS Do you concede that it could have been in the afternoon? MR LOTZ Yes, that is possible. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ No alcohol was used at all, Captain van Zyl would never have allowed it. It was one of his direct orders in the past where for example we travelled to other places and no alcohol was to be used. ADV DU PLESSIS But will you concede that Captain Venter and Mr Beeslaar at that stage - that is the next day the 9th, the day after the abduction, that on that day Captain Venter and Beeslaar were not really not necessary for the execution of any function? MR LOTZ No, they were not necessary, that is why I thought that they had left during the middle of the day. ADV DU PLESSIS If their evidence was as far as they can remember - Captain Venter has already said and Mr Beeslaar will, that their recollection is that they braaied and had drinks. Will you not say that it could possibly be correct? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ I hear what you say but I cannot think that in view of what happened there, that this is what would have happened. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ I suppose it is possible, I cannot say that it is a fact but it is possible - I cannot say that this is a fact. ADV DU PLESSIS You would surely not have given much attention to them there, would you? MR LOTZ No. ADV DE JAGER MR LOTZ I know that he would have a drink but under no circumstances while we were working. ADV DE JAGER Can you remember occasion where he specifically forbade people who wanted to drink? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ Not to see exactly what they were busy with, no. ADV DU PLESSIS Surely what you were involved in yourself you would remember more positively? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS And would you not say the same is valid for Captain Venter and Mr Beeslaar, that that which they were involved in that they will remember that better than for example aspects whereby you were involved? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ It is possible. ADV DU PLESSIS Thank you. CHAIRPERSON I think you must not end up listening to something which looks like evidence when it is not evidence at all. Are you saying that it is possible that they could have made up fire and made a braai without you noticing it? MR LOTZ No, Sir. I remember that we made a fire that morning and at one stage I went to Cradock - that was before we made the fire to have the barbecue ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS Perhaps I should just put it differently. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that it is possible they made fire, you are not able to remember that? MR LOTZ I recall that we did make a fire that morning and that we braaied, it was between 10 and 12 that morning - that is what I can remember. CHAIRPERSON MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON Would you not have remembered if they had made up their own fire, are you saying it is possible you might have forgotten that as well? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, if I can just point out the point I want to make. "It was late that afternoon but the sun was still shining, Captain Venter and I spent a few hours at the place and among others had a barbecue and had a few drinks" The point is, your evidence is that they had the barbecue the morning. MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS And everybody was present, Venter and Beeslaar? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis, before you move away from that point - Mr Lotz, you mention that in the afternoon you left to go and fetch some diesel or something like that. MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON You see on page 78, it seems to me that - whose affidavit is this? ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON "As far as I can recall Captain Sakkie van Zyl and Deon Niewoudt were present" MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON What I want to point out to you is that if indeed they came in the afternoon - all right if they came in the afternoon, it could be that in fact you were not there - if they did come in the afternoon, it could be at the time when you had gone to fetch the diesel? MR LOTZ But then surely they would still have been there upon my return, they would have been there when I returned. CHAIRPERSON MR LOTZ I understand. ADV DE JAGER When you arrived back with the diesel, were they there at that stage? MR LOTZ ADV DE JAGER When you returned, did you take the diesel out of the car yourself? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV DE JAGER MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON So, the mystery deepens. ADV DU PLESSIS Yes Mr Chairman, the only question is, how important this difference is. Mr Lotz, it seems that there is a bit of a discrepancy and a question mark as to when Venter and Beeslaar arrived and departed but that has no bearing on the alleged assaults and it has no bearing on the elimination. I want to put it you - and that is also in line with what I will argue, is that it is not really material difference between your version and their versions and that these discrepancies are to be expected in view of the passage of time. An important point however is that, was Captain Venter or Beeslaar or any of the Askaris present when the elimination took place? MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ No, there were no assaults. ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS I was coming to that point Mr Chairman, I was on the verge of saying ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS That was what I was going to do. MR LOTZ No, their heads were not covered, not whilst I was there. ADV DU PLESSIS MR LOTZ ADV DU PLESSIS In all fairness I would like to put it to you that Mr Beeslaar will testify that he kicked one of these people somewhere on his body in order to attract his attention - to speak to him. MR LOTZ I have no knowledge of that. ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, will you just bear with me? Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV LAMEY Captain Venter are concerned. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY When you signed your amnesty application and it was sworn to, can we rely on the facts set out in your application - on their being correct? MR LOTZ I believe so. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ Perhaps there are things which I omitted and there are things about which I had some doubt but what I said here is what I can remember. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY Could you tell us what happened after you and Lieutenant Niewoudt had burnt the vehicle? MR LOTZ We got into his vehicle and we drove to Cradock. ADV LAMEY Directly to Post Chalmers? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY On you own? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Are you quite sure of that? MR LOTZ Yes, I am. ADV LAMEY 100% certain? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY "Sergeant Lotz and I did that, after which we travelled together and the other persons we found along the way to Cradock. These people were taken to the Post Chalmers police station outside Cradock" MR LOTZ As I can recall, we went from there to Post Chalmers, we arrived there and I think van Zyl and the other people were already there. ADV LAMEY Are you saying that Mr Niewoudt is incorrect in this statement? MR LOTZ ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Let it be not blamed on the behaviour of the public or anyone else for that matter at the end of the day. And we try to hold these kind of hearings in public as opposed to in camera, we try to look for venues which will be big enough to accommodate any number of people that would like to attend. And the idea is we want to encourage people to attend and we welcome them if they want to attend and that is why we go out of our way to secure big halls like this one but at the same time please, we expect that you will co-operate with us, thank you very much. ADV BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey, you were still putting questions to the witness. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Yes, what happened then? MR LOTZ Lieutenant Niewoudt started talking to them ...[intervention] ADV LAMEY Can I stop you there, were you present? MR LOTZ At some point, yes. ADV LAMEY Did Lieutenant Niewoudt speak to them on his own? MR LOTZ Initially yes, I think he was alone with them. ADV LAMEY Were the Askaris present? MR LOTZ They were in the vicinity. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY So, your memory is a bit vague on that point? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Was Captain van Zyl present during the interrogation that night just after you arrived there? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Can you recall what time you arrived there that night? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY How long did the interrogation last for? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Can you remember what time you went to bed? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Was it before midnight or was it after midnight? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Can you recall what you were doing whilst Lieutenant Niewoudt was busy doing the interrogation? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Could you at least say whether all three people - all three of the deceased, were present during this interrogation - all three of these Pebco deceased? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Were they questioned one by one? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY ADV DE JAGER ADV LAMEY I will rephrase my question, I would like to know from you whether the interrogation was still continuing at that stage that you went to bed or were the people already locked up in the garage? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY So if you say: "Some of the people were in the garage", then it means that you are not certain about that? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Are these things facts which you deposed to with certainty? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY So your statement comprises lots of uncertainties, things which you seem to recall but about which you are not certain but in your statement it seems to be a certainty but however you cannot recall it with 100% certainty? MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON I think it is obvious that what you wrote here is what you remembered, otherwise you have would not have had it written here. MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON With certainty? MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON Now why did you state under oath things which you are not certain of as the truth? MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON "The interrogation was conducted by Lieutenant Niewoudt and van Zyl as well as the Askaris" MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON You are not sure about certain details as to the order in which they were interrogated and so on but you are certain that they were interviewed by Lieutenant Niewoudt, Captain van Zyl and the Askaris. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ That is possible. ADV LAMEY So in your application you do not mention Captain Venter and Beeslaar. MR LOTZ I was present myself but I did not mention my own name either. ADV LAMEY You testified that on the 8th day of May you received the instruction from Captain van Zyl and you were informed as to your involvement in the operation, is that correct? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY Can you recall at what stage of the day it was? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Are you sure of that? MR LOTZ More or less, the reason I say that is because thereafter I went to Glenconnor where I went to pick up the Askaris and then we left for Walmer from there. ADV LAMEY Where was Captain Venter, where was he and Beeslaar at that stage when you received your orders? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Can you remember whether you were shown photos of these three persons? MR LOTZ No, I was not shown. ADV LAMEY Was Captain Venter shown photos? MR LOTZ Not in my presence. ADV LAMEY After you received the instruction from Captain van Zyl, did you depart for Glenconnor directly afterwards? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY To fetch the Askaris? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY With your arrival there, what did you tell them? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Were there specific persons that you had to pick up? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY You are talking about four people now, can you remember many? MR LOTZ Three or four and a policeman was also involved. ADV LAMEY You say three or four? Three or four, is that the ...[indistinct] that you are referring to - that you had to pick up? MR LOTZ Two or three Askaris and I think a policeman was also involved - I think a policemen was involved. ADV LAMEY Two or three Askaris plus a policeman? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY At that stage, had you had anything to do with any of them? Or were the people that you had to pick up strangers to you? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY What did you tell them when you arrived? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Do you think that Captain van Zyl - before he gave you the instruction, do you think that he spoke to Captain Venter prior to this? MR LOTZ I believe that to be true otherwise he would not have told me to fetch the people. ADV LAMEY And the you went - from where did you go directly to Glenconnor? Sorry, the question is: "Where did you got to from Glenconnor"? MR LOTZ We went to Walmer. ADV LAMEY What were you to have done there? MR LOTZ We had to pick up the people there or we had to take the people there, we were contacted by radio to do so and Lieutenant Niewoudt was there and Captain Venter was also there. ADV LAMEY At the point where you had to get them? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY What happened there when you met Venter and Niewoudt? MR LOTZ We had to wait there until we were to be informed by radio that we had to move towards the airport. ADV LAMEY Is that point close to the airport? MR LOTZ Yes, approximately 1 kilometre to 1.5 kilometres but I stand corrected. ADV LAMEY The point where you had to meet them, is that close to the security branch? MR LOTZ No. ADV LAMEY Is it not close by? MR LOTZ No. ADV LAMEY Is it near a station - a railway station? MR LOTZ No. ADV LAMEY Is the security branch- as it close to a railway station at that time or not far from there? MR LOTZ The old Sanlam building where the old security branch was, was opposite the railway station. ADV LAMEY Do you say that from there you then drove to the airport? MR LOTZ From the point where we were at Walmer? ADV LAMEY Yes. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY How would the Askaris identify the Pebco 3 at the airport? MR LOTZ I heard this morning and I can just make a deduction. ADV LAMEY No, I want to hear from you yourself. MR LOTZ Can I just finish my sentence please? I heard that the photos were given to Captain Venter and I believe that at that stage when we were under the trees, that he could have discussed it with them then and that he would have given them the photos. ADV LAMEY What time was that? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Is that what you believe or did you see it? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY If the Askaris were to testify that at no stage were any photos shown to them of these three persons, will you doubt that testimony? MR LOTZ In view of the operation as I understood from Captain van Zyl, the whole idea was to make use of those people to intercept the people at the airport. ADV LAMEY Are you certain about the course of events from Glenconnor to this point where you stopped, are you sure of your facts? MR LOTZ I could be a bit wrong with the times. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Because I want to put it to you that these are also aspects which lie on the periphery and you have already conceded in your testimony that as far as such aspects are concerned, your memory could possibly fail you. MR LOTZ I know that I drove to Glenconnor and Walmer and from there I went to the airport. ADV LAMEY Why was it necessary for you to go and fetch them at Glenconnor? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY But what was the necessity of this? MR LOTZ How would the people have arrived at Port Elizabeth, had I not fetched them? ADV LAMEY On their own with their minibus by driving it themselves, the worked in the area, they moved around in the area and their base was at Glenconnor. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY When they worked in the area they most probably moved from Glenconnor to P.E. on a daily basis? MR LOTZ I do not know how long they had been there or how long they had been in the Eastern Cape at that stage. ADV LAMEY But the testimony of Captain van Zyl was that they had been there for at least a week and they were involved in the tracing of terrorists and surely they did this on their own. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY But in the Black townships of Port Elizabeth? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY I just want to say that my instructions on that point were that were not given the instruction to go into the Black townships very often. MR LOTZ I cannot dispute this, I do not know what the instructions were. ADV LAMEY They drove the minibus from Glenconnor to a point close to the old security branch or an old railway - the railway station, where Captain Venter told them that they had to wait. MR LOTZ No, there we differ. I drove to Glenconner, I went to fetch them and I think that I drove to Glenconnor with their bus to go and fetch them and then we went to Walmer where we waited. The same bus was used to drive into the airport itself when the persons were intercepted and from there to the bush path. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ I have a different version, I drove to Glenconnor and back to Walmer which was close - to the point which was close to the airport. ADV LAMEY Just a moment please Mr Chairman. In his testimony Mr Beeslaar said that - on page 76, the 3rd paragraph from the top, that the Black members Koole, Radebi, Mogoai and Mamasela followed them in a minibus from Glenconnor. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY This is on the 3rd paragraph on page 76. Do you see this? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ All that I can remember is that I drove through to Glenconnor, I picked them up there, we went straight from there to Walmer. ADV DE JAGER We have three people who are testifying about their own movements, he is doing the same but then there is the fourth one who has a version and that is Joe Mamasela. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ About certain things where I was not involved I can say that perhaps I can concede I could have made a mistake or things where I did not have an interest but here I physically drove from P.E. to Glenconnor and back and that is why I say that I can definitely remember this, this is something that I did. ADV SANDI Mr Lotz, if you are being asked a question about things which you were not involved in, would it not be appropriate for you to simply say: "I have no personal knowledge of that"? MR LOTZ I can say that. ADV SANDI MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY At one stage you said that arrived at the airport in the minibus, where did you park with the minibus at the airport? Did you drive the minibus? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Where did you stop? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY How far from the entrance to the airport building? MR LOTZ More or less opposite the entrance, a question of 20 to 30 metres. ADV LAMEY And Captain Venter, do you know where he was at that stage? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY But did he drive there with his own vehicle or did he go there with a different vehicle? MR LOTZ He went with a different vehicle, I do not know whether he went with the Safari. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Was Lieutenant Niewoudt there in his own vehicle? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY And Captain van Zyl? MR LOTZ With his own vehicle. ADV LAMEY But you know nothing about Venter? MR LOTZ He was there with his vehicle but where precisely he parked at the airport ...[intervention] ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ Yes, he was. ADV LAMEY Would you say that Lieutenant Niewoudt - due to the position where he was, that he would have know what was going on around him with regard to the events at the airport and who was with whom from the position where they would have been? MR LOTZ No sound. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GERHARDUS JOHANNES LOTZ (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Lotz, Lieutenant Niewoudt says in his statement - paragraph 16, page 128 third line that: "Captain Venter and the Askaris were in a different vehicle" Do you see that? MR LOTZ Yes, I can see it. ADV LAMEY And what is your comment? MR LOTZ I was with them. ADV LAMEY So, are you saying that Lieutenant is making a mistake in his sworn statement? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY I want to ask you, how did you know that one of the people that you were transporting was a permanent member? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY How do you know that he was an officer? MR LOTZ I suppose that I heard it from one of the other people. ADV LAMEY You say you probably heard it from somebody? Who do you mean? MR LOTZ From the Askaris because I drove with them from Glenconnor. ADV LAMEY So, at that stage you must have been certain that there were at least three people? MR LOTZ Askaris and the policeman, yes. ADV LAMEY I would like to refer you to your own statement - I just want to find the place, page 5 top paragraph. You say there Now you mention two or three people here. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY And in your evidence today, you mentioned three or four people. MR LOTZ With the policeman. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY You only refer to the Askaris? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ I just perhaps omitted it. ADV LAMEY Can you remember exactly how the Pebco 3 were intercepted by the Askaris at the airport? MR LOTZ As I remember it, we drove from the point in Walmer where we all met ...[intervention] ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ The vehicle in which the three people were being transported, it arrived there. ADV LAMEY Did you see that? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY Where did it stop - this car? MR LOTZ It drove past us. ADV LAMEY How far past you did they drive? MR LOTZ About 10 to 15 metres and stopped in a parking bay. ADV LAMEY What happened then? MR LOTZ We were in radio contact with the other people and we got a description of the other vehicle, the Askaris got out of the vehicle and I think they took two first and then the third one, they took them to the minibus, got into the minibus ...[intervention] ADV LAMEY You say you think they took two first? MR LOTZ Correct, I think two arrived or came and then the third one. ADV LAMEY But can you recall exactly how it happened? MR LOTZ That is how I remember it. ADV LAMEY But are you exactly sure? MR LOTZ That is what I remember. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY How did it take place physically, did they grab them? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY I beg your indulgence, my learned friend wishes to communicate with me. My apologies, my attention has been drawn to the fact that Mr du Plessis as well as my colleague on my right - that these two gentlemen have drawn to my attention that the witness has in fact in his evidence in chief referred to first the two and then the one person being apprehended and brought to the car, I had no intention to mislead the Committee. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY I want to put it to you that I find it extremely strange and improbable that if that was the case, you would be the person who drove the minibus and that a situation was allowed to develop where these people drove past the minibus of which you were the driver in these circumstances where there was the danger that they could notice you and become suspicious. Furthermore, I find it improbable that it happened the way you testified that first two and then the third person was apprehended and accompanied to the minibus and that that could take place without the third person becoming suspicious and that he could still be intercepted with so much ease. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ No, that is how I - that is how it happened whilst I was there, I have nothing to add. ADV LAMEY What radio did you have in your possession? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ No, this was a portable walkie talkie radio. CHAIRPERSON "Two people got out of the vehicle, it was a tall person and a shorter person and I ascertained that it was Godolozi and Champion Galela. Roelf Venter and I jumped out of the minibus and we waited for them to cross the road to the entrance of the airport. At the entrance we showed our certificates of appointment to the two people and we introduced ourselves. We grabbed them and pulled them into the minibus and the bus was nearby" CHAIRPERSON From the point where you were, you were able clearly to see what happened? MR LOTZ That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You were clearly able to see the when the - as you put it, Askaris confronted them. MR LOTZ That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What happened. MR LOTZ CHAIRPERSON They were not manhandled? MR LOTZ No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? ADV LAMEY Did they offer no resistance? MR LOTZ No, not that I saw. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY In your evidence you describe actually quite a normal procedure as to how they were conveyed to the minibus. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY You said that the Askaris just went to the three people in the vehicle, two were taken to the minibus first and then later the third one? MR LOTZ Correct. ADV LAMEY This third person was also intercepted or taken from the bakkie and then conveyed to the minibus? MR LOTZ Correct. ADV LAMEY What was the third one doing? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Now, the two who were taken first, did they get into the minibus first and thereafter only the third one? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY You must of been able to see the first two who got into the bus? MR LOTZ Correct. ADV LAMEY And yet the third one also got into the bus? MR LOTZ Correct. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY And you are 100% certain about these facts? These are not issues as to which you have any uncertainty? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole will testify that they were waiting in the minibus and that they saw how Captain Venter and the other White men - there were about four or five in total, how they were moving around before the people arrived there and that they were taken in an apparently normal way to the minibus by these White men. MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ It was myself, I actually drove that vehicle. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ No, I was in the vehicle. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ No, from the point that I went to Glenconnor and afterwards to Walmer and from there onwards to the airport to the forest path, I was the driver of the minibus or the vehicle. ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON I hope you have got a point to make about telling us whether he remembers an Askaris being called aside, otherwise we must get to the important aspects of the matter Mr Lamey. ADV LAMEY As it pleases you Chairperson. I want to take you back to Post Chalmers, your evidence leads me to ask you the question of when the next day it happened - the day after the night that you arrived there, when did it actually happen that the Askaris left? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY What time was that? MR LOTZ Between 11 and 12 I think. ADV LAMEY Are you sure that the barbecue took place round about that time? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY What time did the barbecue start? MR LOTZ After they ate - after the barbecue they left. ADV LAMEY So what time did the barbecue start? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ Correct. ADV LAMEY And you are quite certain that the braai took place beforehand? MR LOTZ That is correct. ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON What page are you Mr Lamey? ADV LAMEY When you say or let me first make sure, did Venter and the Askaris leave together? MR LOTZ Yes, they departed together. ADV LAMEY In paragraph 2 of your statement, on page 7 the following appears "I went to bed and the next morning Captain Roelf Venter and the Askaris left back to their place of work whilst myself, Captain van Zyl and Lieutenant Niewoudt stayed behind" ADV LAMEY Now here you refer to the morning whilst 12 noon is actually already afternoon. MR LOTZ Well I said it was 11/12ish, it was - and perhaps one can also say that 5 to 12 is still morning. ADV LAMEY Did you eat together there? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY And the three people? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY Now before this you must have actually gone to buy the food? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY Where did you buy it? MR LOTZ In Cradock. ADV LAMEY What did you buy? MR LOTZ Meat, bread, coffee and things like that. ADV LAMEY The third paragraph of your statement you say "In the course of the day I purchased food and I prepared it and I also chopped wood" MR LOTZ Correct. ADV LAMEY "Later that afternoon - later the afternoon or that afternoon, we and that includes the Pebco 3 ate the food which I had prepared" MR LOTZ It could be wrong, it was the morning. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ Yes, that would be wrong. ADV LAMEY What made you decide to change your evidence after you actually deposed to this statement? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY But in you statement surely the same applied, you were stating what you could recall? MR LOTZ Yes. ADV LAMEY So how come your evidence has changed on this aspect? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ Correct, yes. ADV LAMEY MR LOTZ Correct. ADV LAMEY Then on what basis are you testifying to the fact that the Askaris were standing guard as far as the three deceased were concerned, by actually putting the minibus in front of the garage, how do you know that? You went to bed, how do you know that they stood guard and slept in the minibus with their vehicle parked in front of the garage? MR LOTZ ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS WITNESS EXCUSED