amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-11-10 PORT ELIZABETH 8 GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54831&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/pebco3a.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, would you like to call the next witness? ADV BOOYENS Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, I call Mr Nieuwoudt. GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY ADV BOOYENS Mr Nieuwoudt, please take your application and keep it in front of you. Do you confirm the contents on page 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112 we could perhaps just have a brief look at that. Do you confirm that as being correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS You also refer to different annexures. Those annexures is what you have as proof of the existence of the struggle. You also have added a document that you have also referred to in a different application, with regard to the fact that there has been referred to the elimination of the enemy, the leaders of them? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS Perhaps more specifically, that is - we can refer to on page ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think this noise is really too much now. We just can't hear what the witness is saying, please. ADV BOOYENS Page 146, to neutralise leaders of the enemy and to also break their influence. That is the one that you refer to, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it is Chairperson. ADV BOOYENS And then on page 112, more or less in the middle of the page, you refer to the founding of Pebco in the black townships, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it is. ADV DE JAGER Mr Booyens, page 146, could you perhaps just give an indication what you are referring to there? ADV BOOYENS My apologies Mr Chairperson, if you turn the page, if you look at the previous page, 145, it is an annexure and it is about the objectives and then you have the specific tasks, the action and the responsible department and if you turn over the page, there you will see item number 3. That is the purpose to neutralise leaders of the enemy and to eliminate the influence and then the task is the next one, to identify the leaders of the enemy and then also determine the places where they have influence and also neutralise or eliminate these leaders. And it is also identified that the SAP, South African Defence Force will be responsible for that, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it is. ADV BOOYENS Just to place this within the context ... (intervention) ADV DE JAGER Could you just give an indication, the last column under "h", special remarks, who is the VH, to what does that refer? ADV BOOYENS Mr Chairman, it is Security Forces, it is an "m" there, it is VM and that is then linking with the Security Forces, has to be avoided. From page 111, paragraph 20, since the founding of Pebco in 1970, you were involved with the activities and the aims of this organisation? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS And if you look at page 21, that is a name that will later become relevant, the first executive of Pebco was Tozamile Botha, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is so. ADV BOOYENS Mr Botha left the country later on? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS Then you deal with the election of the executive during the 1980's, 1980, 1981? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS And 29 June 1981, Mr Godolozi who is one of the deceased is elected President? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS And on 22 November 1982, he was still the President? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS 20 November 1983 he was still President? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS At the executive elected on the 26th, Mr Hashe is added as additional member? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS And at the election of 26 March 1985, Mr Godolozi, Hashe and Mr Galela were once again elected as the President, General Secretary and Assistant Secretary? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS And then you deal with the history of what happened later on? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS And on page 117 you make the statement since 1983, following ex-ANC members were co-opted to the executive of Pebco and then you mention certain names, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS Now this link between the ANC and the Pebco, did they have an influence with the M-plan that you have at the bottom of page 118? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct, yes. ADV BOOYENS And then you deal with the Regional Management of the UDF? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS On page 119, you deal with the application and the nature of the application? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS And then we go to page 120. When this incident took place, you were Lieutenant of the Unit Commander of the information component with regard to Black Affairs. Was it the case that Pebco was one of the affairs that you paid attention to? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS Could you just briefly tell us and keep it brief, what was Pebco, what did they do? MR NIEUWOUDT They were a community organisation and briefly then, they were the internal structure of the ANC where they politicised the masses and mobilised them and then also the creation of the street and area committees where they were responsible for it. ADV BOOYENS That is the M-plan? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it is. And then they also had certain activities such as consumer boycotts, rent boycotts and different boycotts in general. ADV BOOYENS Did they also play a prominent role in the schools? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is true, school boycotts. ADV BOOYENS As the situation developed, alternative structures were developed according to the M-Plan? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS Now these alternative structures, what did it lead to in the black townships? MR NIEUWOUDT It lead to total unrest, the burning of all third tier government buildings, council members were burnt by means of the necklace method, attacks on policemen and several policemen were also killed by means of the necklace method. And all government institutions were totally destroyed. ADV BOOYENS Policing in these areas? MR NIEUWOUDT The policing was not at all successful. To use the English terms, there were no go areas where the police could not get entry, had no access. ADV BOOYENS Were there certain areas where vehicles such as caspers could not get access? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is true. ADV BOOYENS And the role it played besides political crime, let's refer to it as ordinary crime? MR NIEUWOUDT Some of the vehicles that came in, were plundered. ADV BOOYENS Did it increase? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it increased and cases weren't even reported at the police. ADV BOOYENS And at 1984, 1985 would you say that - who was busy winning the struggle in the townships? MR NIEUWOUDT The progressive organisation Pebco was busy being notorious in the struggle. ADV BOOYENS Now, you heard evidence of the seniors that there was a lot of pressure to normalise the situation? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS You refer on page 121 wrongly to one of the appendixes as JSMC meeting, but it is actually SVR meeting and that is on page 240? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS And more specifically you also want to point the Committee's attention to page 242 where the meeting was briefed with regard to the combatting regulations in this situation in South Africa and in paragraph (c) where attention was paid to further boycotts and then specifically paragraph (f)? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS Where it is said that agitator leaders have to be removed from the community on a selective way? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS And there they already took cognisance of the fact that negative publicity is because of the arrests, must be weighed up against the effectiveness or the purpose thereof and then you refer to the fact that some of the ordinary options, and we have said quite a lot about that, if people want to ask you questions about that, they should, but the normal legal options that were available with security legislation, didn't work? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV BOOYENS The third tier government that was instituted then in the black townships, totally came to a standstill, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS So you also confirm what you said here? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS And then you refer to counter action of the Security community by means of the JSMC? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS Did you receive instructions from your Commanders? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS A data base was established and there was a good picture of the people who was primarily responsible for the violence in the Eastern Cape and the ungovernability? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS The extent of violence and anarchy, the idea was to first do that on a legal way, did it work? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV BOOYENS Page 124, you have already made mention of the JSMC. Normally the JSMC would be attended by the Commander or the second in command? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS You were a Lieutenant at that stage? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS You were not in command of a desk, under whom did you work? MR NIEUWOUDT I worked under Major Du Plessis at that stage. ADV BOOYENS Just to give a bit of background, let's call it a JSMC conference during March 1985? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. It was a seminar. ADV BOOYENS Did this deal with all the complaints on not enough cooperation between the different branches, military intelligence, the Security Branch and national intelligence? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS Was the purpose of this with regard to the total Security Management Structure, to get the people to cooperate? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS Can you remember who were present? I refer to the more prominent figures. MR NIEUWOUDT What I can recall is that the Chairperson of that seminar was Brigadier Joffel van der Westhuizen. He was Commander of the Eastern Cape and he was a military man. ADV BOOYENS Can you remember if there was a Deputy Minister at that stage? MR NIEUWOUDT Adriaan Vlok was present. At that stage he was Deputy Minister of the Police and Defence Force. ADV BOOYENS And also Brigadier Swart the Divisional Commissioner of the Police? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, and also heads of different departments? ADV BOOYENS Can you recall the language that was used? It has also appeared from the evidence of Colonel Snyman, how did they refer to the supporters of the liberation movements? MR NIEUWOUDT We referred to the enemy of the State. ADV BOOYENS Did you or did someone there refer to a Naff theory? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is the case. Brigadier Joffel van der Westhuizen, explained the Naff theory to us. This was reflected by means of a wheel, consisting of these different organisations as the spokes and then the rim. The rim of this wheel could not be attacked to because it was strengthened by iron. And he referred to elimination, he then said that you had to take the particular rim and then you would also then destroy all the organisations. That is what was referred to all these organisations and all their supporters and leading elements and it was those people who had to be eliminated. ADV BOOYENS And then on page 124, you deal with paragraph (7) the increase of anarchy and disorder and then also the statements of political leaders? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS These statements of political leaders, did this also correspond with your own political perceptions? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS And did you support the government of the day? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS How did you see yourself as a security policemen? MR NIEUWOUDT To protect the government of the day and to maintain it, where they wanted to subvert the government, that was our task and our aim and function. ADV BOOYENS And then you also deal with what you heard of as to how Du Plessis approached Snyman in paragraph 8 on page 124, and how the decision was taken. It is not your personal knowledge, it is what you heard later on? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS Paragraph 12, you make the statement that Colonel Snyman was not involved in the planning and the execution of the operation. Did you at any stage have contact with Colonel Snyman with regard to the planning and the execution of the operation? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV BOOYENS And on page 127, there you deal with the fact that Captain Roelf Venter as well as Beeslaar and the askaris were working in the Eastern Cape. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS What was the purpose of their presence here? MR NIEUWOUDT Briefly, as a result of the revolutionary bases that were established in the black townships, and the vacuum that was created within the black community, it was breeding ground for infiltration of terrorists and it was then necessary to get members of the Vlakplaas unit to help with the identification of trained cadres, that is briefly then. ADV BOOYENS In other words, they did the work for which Vlakplaas was there and that was identification or that was the perception of enemy forces, they didn't come for the specific operation, their presence was coincidental, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS Were you at one stage approached by Captain Van Zyl and informed that they envisaged abducting and murdering political activists Hashe, Godolozi and Galela? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS Did you become involved in the planning of the operation? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS The three persons, were they known to you? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS What were their activities, please summarise? MR NIEUWOUDT As far as Mr Godolozi was concerned, he was the President of Pebco. Mr Hashe was the Secretary or the General Secretary of Pebco and Mr Galela was the Organising Secretary of Pebco, Assistant Secretary of Pebco. ADV BOOYENS Were these three names given to you as having been identified? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS If you were theoretically in the position yourself and you wanted to harm Pebco, would you have chosen the same people or would you have chosen others, based on your own knowledge? MR NIEUWOUDT My own knowledge and if I had found myself in such a position to give such an instruction, then the Chairman, the General Secretary and the Organising Secretary would then be the persons who would form the crux of an organisation. ADV BOOYENS Their personal role as activists, was it known to you? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it was also known to me. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, to interrupt. I do not understand what the witness is saying, or are you clarifying Mr Booyens? His previous answer to your question? ADV BOOYENS In a personal role? CHAIRPERSON Yes, before that one. You asked him if he had any authority, whether he would - what he would decide to do? Do you understand my problem? ADV BOOYENS I understand your problem. Mr Nieuwoudt, you say that you would also have chosen the Secretary, the Organising Secretary and the Chairman if you wanted to harm the organisation? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS Why do you say so? MR NIEUWOUDT Because they, those persons in those portfolios they are involved with the direct organisation of the organisation and the execution of all the activities. They were the core of the organisation, those three portfolios, the kingpins. CHAIRPERSON Irrespective of who that person was? In other words, are you targeting at the office which the person occupies? MR NIEUWOUDT No. If they were the prominent organisation leaders. CHAIRPERSON Maybe I don't quite understand. ADV BOOYENS Mr Chairman, I am going on, I have asked the question their personal activity, I was going to go onto that. You have already said that you knew these three people personally as regards their personal roles, in other words their prominence etc, can you perhaps elaborate very briefly? MR NIEUWOUDT Those three persons were directly involved in inciting the unrest, the necklace murders that were committed and the recruitment of persons as well as the insurgents and the creation of revolutionary bases in the black townships and they were directly responsible for the organising of the unrest which they incited. That is in brief. ADV BOOYENS Were they strong leader figures? MR NIEUWOUDT Extremely strong. ADV BOOYENS So therefore did we have a situation of three strong leader figures in key positions? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS I hope I have clarified that now. Did you, Captain Van Zyl and Du Plessis, did you then start with the practical implementation of the operation? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS I accept that it was planning of what, where, when and how to put it simplisticly? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS In the first place to launch the operation, you had to find a method to get hold of these people, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, I am not saying you are going to do that. Please don't ask leading questions on that. ADV BOOYENS No, I am not going to. You referred to Mr Botha earlier on, he was a management member? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS Did he play a role, indirectly in the planning of what was to have happened, how it was to have happened? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, he did. ADV BOOYENS Please tell us about it? MR NIEUWOUDT The opportunity arose by means of a non-physical source that Mr Hashe had accomplished liaison with Mr Botha, who at that stage was overseas or abroad in Lusaka. ADV BOOYENS What was the purpose of the liaison? MR NIEUWOUDT To obtain funds from the ANC? ADV BOOYENS For? MR NIEUWOUDT For Pebco. ADV BOOYENS After you had that information, how did the planning progress? MR NIEUWOUDT On the instruction of Major Du Plessis, I activated a source. ADV DE JAGER You referred to a non-physical source, can you just clarify the difference between a physical and non-physical source? MR NIEUWOUDT Non-physical source is a technical source, where the telephones had been tapped. ADV DE JAGER To put it in understandable language, you listened in to a telephone conversation? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV DE JAGER Just keep to the language that we understand please. ADV BOOYENS Mr Nieuwoudt, please tell us, you have now tapped the conversation or you listened in on the conversation, they were requesting money for Pebco. When you had this information, was any further planning done? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, there was. I activated the source. ADV BOOYENS You spoke to a source of yours? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I spoke to a source and instructed him to ... (intervention) ADV BOOYENS Yes, to do what with the three people? MR NIEUWOUDT The source acted as if he was a member of the British Embassy and said that he wanted to give them money and he arranged a meeting with them to meet him at the airport. ADV BOOYENS At that stage, did you already have instructions as to which of the three they were to be? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is true. Mr Du Plessis gave me the instructions. ADV BOOYENS What did you tell the source, what did he basically have to say to the people who had to come to the airport regarding the money? MR NIEUWOUDT The source was informed that he had to liaise with Mr Hashe and to inform Mr Hashe that he had to bring the President, he himself as well as the Assistant General Secretary, Mr Galela. ADV BOOYENS So that was your instruction to the source? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS Did the source report back to you at a later stage? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, he did. ADV BOOYENS Are you prepared to identify your source? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV BOOYENS As a result of what the source told you, was the operation launched? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS What was the planning further? MR NIEUWOUDT The morning of the 8th, I informed Major Du Plessis and Van Zyl and Major Du Plessis suggested that the members of Vlakplaas be used to execute the arrest at the airport. ADV BOOYENS Yes. MR NIEUWOUDT And that they had to create the false impression that we wanted to arrest the three deceased. ADV BOOYENS It wasn't a real arrest, we know that? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS Why Vlakplaas? MR NIEUWOUDT Because we were rather well known in this area, all the members of the Security Branch up in Port Elizabeth and they had to be met by unknown persons and unknown vehicles in order to abduct or intercept them at the airport. ADV BOOYENS Why were they lured to the airport, why didn't you just go and pick them up at their houses? MR NIEUWOUDT We could not take action at their homes, as a result of the unrest situation that prevailed at that stage, and they would not possibly have been at their houses, that is how I see it. ADV BOOYENS The purpose of the use of the people from Vlakplaas you say was to prevent them from identifying you? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS And did you then go to the airport? MR NIEUWOUDT I just have one point that I did not mention. That morning when Captain Venter joined us, I handed the photos of the three deceased to him and thereafter we went forth. ADV BOOYENS Did you have photos of the deceased? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I did. I had them in their files. ADV BOOYENS Were there security files on all three of them? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS You gave the photos to the Captain. When did Mr Lotz enter the picture? MR NIEUWOUDT During the course of that morning. ADV BOOYENS If you are speaking of that morning? MR NIEUWOUDT That is the morning of the 8th. ADV BOOYENS What happened further in the planning of the operation? MR NIEUWOUDT At that stage, we met at the airport that evening. ADV BOOYENS Just say who you are referring to us we? MR NIEUWOUDT Captain Van Zyl, Lotz, myself as well as Captain Roelf Venter and Beeslaar and four members of the askaris. ADV DE JAGER Where exactly did you meet? MR NIEUWOUDT It is in Walmer, near the airport. ADV BOOYENS Mr Chairman, my earphones are making a lot of noise for some or other reason, I don't know. I think Mr Nyoka indicates he's got a similar problem. If perhaps somebody can just look at that. Let us proceed. You met at Walmer, near the airport. What happened there? MR NIEUWOUDT I took my own vehicle to the parking area at the airport. Captain Roelf Venter and Beeslaar went with their vehicle to the parking area and they parked. Captain Lotz drove the minibus with the black members of Vlakplaas. He was Warrant Officer Lotz at that stage, he drove the minibus and he also parked near the entrance to the airport. We were in radio contact with the vehicles. CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens made a remark about a noise, a certain noise, it is quite irritating. We are catching that noise as well. I am advised though that usually it is as a result of the fact that people have switched on their cellphones and their reception interfere with the system here. Please switch off your cellphones if you are in the hall, because they interfere with out sound system here. Thank you. ADV BOOYENS You were in radio contact with one another, what happened then? MR NIEUWOUDT At approximately eight o'clock, 20h00, the three deceased arrived in Mr Hashe's vehicle. ADV BOOYENS What was it? MR NIEUWOUDT It was a light yellow Isuzu bakkie. I informed Lotz that the vehicle was under way and two of the deceased, Mr Godolozi and Galela got out of the vehicle near the entrance, the vehicle which Mr Hashe drove and he went to park the vehicle and at that stage the black members of Vlakplaas, approached them and convinced them to accompany them. They were helped into the kombi. ADV BOOYENS If you say the black members of Vlakplaas, you said there were four, was it all four of them or less? MR NIEUWOUDT As far as I can recall, they were approached by the four members. ADV BOOYENS Were any of the Port Elizabeth Security Branch people nearby where these people were approached? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV BOOYENS Was Venter or Beeslaar close by? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV BOOYENS Where were they approached at the airport, if you can just say more or less? MR NIEUWOUDT It was before you get the entrance of the departure hall. ADV BOOYENS That means outside the departure hall? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, outside the departure hall. ADV BOOYENS Except for the four Vlakplaas members, were they approached by any one else, let's call them askaris? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV BOOYENS From what you saw Mr Nieuwoudt, did they grab these people or was there a struggle, how did they control these people? I am referring to the three deceased? MR NIEUWOUDT As far as I saw, they were requested to accompany them, this is the askaris, requested them. No violence was used, they were not grabbed, they were just convinced to go with them quietly. ADV BOOYENS Where did they move to? MR NIEUWOUDT Then they moved to where Mr Hashe had parked. At the airport where the busses now park, that is where Mr Hashe had parked his vehicle, and when he got out, they approached him and he was also - he also accompanied them to the minibus and he got in. ADV BOOYENS Since then the airport has changed then? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS Then they got into the minibus in which the askaris were, the three deceased, and what happened then? MR NIEUWOUDT And then we moved and one of the members of the askaris, I am not quite sure which one, then drove Mr Hashe's vehicle and followed us to a bush path, approximately half a kilometre from the airport where we met one another. ADV BOOYENS What was the planning concerning this vehicle, Hashe's vehicle? MR NIEUWOUDT Originally the plan was to leave the vehicle near the Lesotho border to create the impression that they had left the Republic of South Africa. ADV BOOYENS Was this done? If not, let's just finish with the vehicle, why not? MR NIEUWOUDT I think that the member who drove it, mentioned to me ... (intervention) ADV BOOYENS That is the askari? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct, that the vehicle's clutch and the brakes were not in good working order. I conveyed this to Captain Van Zyl, and he then gave the instruction that the vehicle was to be burnt. ADV BOOYENS Did he give you the instruction? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS What did you do with the vehicle then? MR NIEUWOUDT I took the vehicle and Warrant Lotz followed me in my vehicle and I drove the vehicle to a rubbish dump in the black township of KwaZekhele where it was burnt. ADV BOOYENS As far as you were concerned, what was its mechanical condition? MR NIEUWOUDT Extremely poor, it would not even have reached the borders of Port Elizabeth. ADV BOOYENS So it would definitely not have reached the borders? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV BOOYENS I don't think we need to give any detail, the vehicle was burnt out by you and Lotz? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS And what happened then? MR NIEUWOUDT Thereafter we departed for Post Chalmers. ADV BOOYENS And at Cradock, you and Lotz? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS In whose vehicle? MR NIEUWOUDT In my vehicle. ADV BOOYENS Where did you meet up with the other people again? MR NIEUWOUDT It was between Cradock and Post Chalmers where I drove up to them from behind. ADV BOOYENS And from there you went to Post Chalmers? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS At what time did you reach Post Chalmers? MR NIEUWOUDT If I have to make an estimation, it was approximately between eleven and twelve that evening. ADV BOOYENS Tell us, let's start with that first evening, what happened? MR NIEUWOUDT The three deceased were kept in the garage. They were given camp beds and blankets. After that I took them out of the garage one by one and kept them in the lounge of the house, not the police station, I want to explain this. There are two buildings, the police station part with its cells and then there is a house where the Station Commander, which he used a long time ago and we only made use of the house. I took them to the lounge of the house, where I interrogated them. ADV BOOYENS Were you alone when you interrogated them? MR NIEUWOUDT No, Colonel Venter and the askaris and Captain Van Zyl, they were all present. Warrant Officer Lotz was present, they moved in and out, but I was the one who did the interrogation. ADV BOOYENS What was the questioning all about? MR NIEUWOUDT I questioned them or confronted them regarding their activities. ADV BOOYENS Did you try to get information? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS Did you gain anything useful? MR NIEUWOUDT No. INTERPRETER The interpreter cannot hear at all. MR NIEUWOUDT No, I questioned them one by one. ADV DE JAGER If you had finished questioning the one, where did you take him? MR NIEUWOUDT He was taken back to the garage, and then I took the next one. That is how I dealt with each one separately. ADV BOOYENS You said that you kept them in the garage, are there cells? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, there are, but we did not have the keys for these cells. ADV BOOYENS How far were the cells from the house? MR NIEUWOUDT Approximately 50 to 60 metres. ADV BOOYENS That was at the police station? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, at the part that was used as a police station. ADV BOOYENS You questioned the people in turn. Did any of the other people, you said you dealt with it primarily, but did any of the others also participate and asked any questions? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, on occasion some of them did ask questions to try and clarify a point and then they asked me to clarity the point and some of them put questions to these people. ADV BOOYENS Which language did you speak? MR NIEUWOUDT Mainly I spoke Xhosa and English. But I did not speak Xhosa throughout. ADV BOOYENS On page 129, paragraph 18, you say that and I want you to explain "as I speak fluent Xhosa and the three persons were learned persons, it was unnecessary for me to use an interpreter", what are you trying to say there? MR NIEUWOUDT What I am trying to say there is that it was not necessary to use an interpreter, if there was a point that I wanted to clarity, I could do it in Xhosa myself. ADV BOOYENS Were these three also fluent in English? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS Further you mention whom you questioned first, namely Mr Godolozi. How long did the questioning of each individual take more or less? MR NIEUWOUDT If I have to make an estimation, it could have been an hour more or less. ADV BOOYENS For each or for all three together? MR NIEUWOUDT Per person, an hour per person. ADV BOOYENS At one stage this questioning ended that evening that evening? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, early the next morning, in the early morning hours. ADV BOOYENS And what happened to them then? MR NIEUWOUDT They were locked up in the garage and they were handcuffed to their camp beds and the garage was locked. It had no windows. ADV BOOYENS Did anyone guard the place? MR NIEUWOUDT As far as I can recall, the members, the askaris, the black members of Vlakplaas guarded them because they slept in their bus, minibus in front of the garage. And they guarded them from that point. ADV BOOYENS The next morning, did you talk to these people again? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I did. ADV BOOYENS At what time? MR NIEUWOUDT It was approximately at eight o'clock. ADV BOOYENS What did you question them about? MR NIEUWOUDT What I can recall is that Mr Hashe told me that he had hidden one AK47 at his sister's house. ADV BOOYENS And? MR NIEUWOUDT And all three of them said that they were prepared to work as informers. ADV BOOYENS Let us just clarity this story of informers. You said that all three of them were prepared to become informers? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true, all three of them. ADV BOOYENS Did you ask them or how did it come about? MR NIEUWOUDT They volunteered this. ADV BOOYENS Did you believe them? MR NIEUWOUDT No, I did not. ADV BOOYENS Why not? MR NIEUWOUDT I believed that it was a strategy on their behalf that all three would make such a suggestion hoping that I would release them. ADV BOOYENS You also told us that you knew these people? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I did. ADV BOOYENS Are they the kind that would become informers for the police? MR NIEUWOUDT Never. ADV BOOYENS As far as the Vlakplaas people were concerned, what happened to them? Were they there the next morning when you awoke? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, they were. ADV BOOYENS Did you have breakfast? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS A great deal has been said about a barbecue that was held. ADV DE JAGER Mr Booyens, I think that the events of that day were very controversial events, and I think it will be a good thing for Captain Nieuwoudt to give his own version without you prompting him in this regard. ADV BOOYENS That is fine. I would just like to give a bit of background and have it placed on record. This police station is no longer used, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS You used it previously? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is the residential area, the house at least. ADV BOOYENS When you wanted to make food, how could you do this? MR NIEUWOUDT We had to make a fire outside, because there is no electricity, no other facilities were available such as pots and pans etc. ADV BOOYENS Can you just possibly give us your version of the sequence of events that morning? MR NIEUWOUDT As I can recall, we did have something to eat that morning, we did have a barbecue, but I must make it clear, it was not a festive occasion as one would think it to be, where alcohol was consumed. I would just like to request - I cannot give testimony properly with this noise, please. CHAIRPERSON I think it is a legitimate complaint because the witness needs to concentrate on every question which is being put to him, and he must catch every word in every question, because if he misses one word, he may end up giving a wrong answer, and I think he should be given the opportunity to muster his concentration together, please. Yes, Mr Nieuwoudt? MR NIEUWOUDT I am very grateful. As I can recall, we had a barbecue that morning, and I want to make it clear it was not a festive occasion as the impression has been created, because no strong liquor was used. I do not consume any strong liquor, I know Captain Van Zyl's attitude as regards the use of strong liquor in any job situation and I want to make it clear, I want to emphasise it here. Thereafter, after we had eaten, the members of Vlakplaas under the leadership of Captain Roelf Venter left and then at a later stage, Major Du Plessis arrived. And he also enjoyed some of the barbecue with us and explained to us that the coast was clear, no alarm had been raised and thereafter he left. ADV BOOYENS At more or less was Mr Du Plessis there? MR NIEUWOUDT I am under the impression that it was approximately twelve o'clock, half past twelve. ADV BOOYENS In other words, in the middle of the day? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS How long did Mr Du Plessis stay? MR NIEUWOUDT Not very long. If it was half an hour, that is if I have to estimate. ADV BOOYENS So he would then have left at about one o'clock, half past one? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS After Mr Du Plessis left, who remained at Post Chalmers? MR NIEUWOUDT Captain Van Zyl, Warrant Officer Lotz and myself. ADV BOOYENS As well as the three deceased? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS Tell us further what happened then, during the rest of the day, the afternoon? MR NIEUWOUDT We gathered wood during the course of the afternoon and later that afternoon, they were given coffee into which the sleeping drug, provided by Captain Van Zyl, had been poured. Later on they slept asleep. ADV BOOYENS You refer to late afternoon, more or less what time was that? MR NIEUWOUDT That was approximately at dusk more or less. They fell asleep. ADV BOOYENS I think that this part is also disputed, so you must just say in your own words exactly what happened. MR NIEUWOUDT Thereafter they were taken out of the garage, or carried out, one by one. Captain Van Zyl shot Mr Hashe with a .22 calibre gun. He handed the gun to me, after which I in turn shot Mr Godolozi and Mr Lotz shot Mr Galela. We placed all three the deceased on the pile of wood where we poured diesel over them and over the wood. I lit the fire. The bodies were burnt totally after approximately six to eight hours. The next morning we gathered or raked the ash together, put it into black bags. I had the instruction from Captain Van Zyl to destroy all evidence of what I had done. I took it to the Fish River, just before Cradock, before you enter Cradock. I emptied the bags into the river and we left for Port Elizabeth. ADV BOOYENS Mr Nieuwoudt, it has been suggested that the people were not killed there, that a long time after that occasion, they had been seen alive on various occasions. Do you have comment on that? MR NIEUWOUDT This is absolute rubbish. I deny this very vehemently. On the evening of the 9th, they were eliminated by Captain Van Zyl, Lotz and myself, burnt out at Post Chalmers, after which I threw the remains, the ashes in the Fish River. ADV BOOYENS Just a few other practicalities. Where was the Security Branch's offices at this stage, this is during May 1985? MR NIEUWOUDT It was in Louis le Grange. On the 27th of April 1985 we moved from the Sanlam building, Strand Street to Louis le Grange. ADV BOOYENS Just to make it clear for the record. Sanlam building, Strand Street, you say that is near the beach? MR NIEUWOUDT No, it is directly opposite the railway station. ADV BOOYENS But it is close to the sea? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, the railway is on the side of the sea. ADV BOOYENS And Louis le Grange? MR NIEUWOUDT Louis le Grange is at the Old Mount Road. ADV BOOYENS How far, is there a station nearby? MR NIEUWOUDT No, not a railway station. ADV BOOYENS How far is the Sanlam building from Louis le Grange? MR NIEUWOUDT Approximately six to eight kilometres. ADV BOOYENS Allegations were made, questions were asked that during the questioning, that these people were assaulted. I accept among others by you, or in your presence, what is your comment on this? MR NIEUWOUDT I deny this that they were assaulted. ADV BOOYENS Can you substantiate this? MR NIEUWOUDT I can. ADV BOOYENS Let us hear? MR NIEUWOUDT I can. I was under pressure from members of the TRC, Mr Chris McAdam and Mr Dumisa Ntsebeza. My legal advisers placed pressure on me to tell me that there were allegations of assaults. I denied this because I did not do this. And if I had, then I would have applied for amnesty for this. I realised that if I omitted this, then I can prejudice my application, because then I am not telling the whole truth. I realise that if I say that I did assault them, then I am not telling the truth. I cannot apply for something that I have no knowledge of. ADV BOOYENS What is Captain Van Zyl's attitude in this regard? MR NIEUWOUDT Even Captain Sakkie van Zyl's attitude with regard to assault, is he is totally against it. And I would not assault people in the presence of strange people whom I did not know. ADV BOOYENS Are you now referring to ... (intervention) MR NIEUWOUDT The members of Vlakplaas, namely the askaris? ADV BOOYENS We heard here that you said that Mr Van Zyl was against it, was he the senior in the operation? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. He was in command of the operational section of the operation, I did the actions under his command. ADV BOOYENS Do you confirm basically as far as you have not done it thus far, what you said up to and including page 132? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS If we look at the political objectives what you wanted to achieve, you were a supporter of the then NP government? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS And also of the party who kept that government in rule? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV BOOYENS And did you then believe in the policy of the National Party? MR NIEUWOUDT I did. ADV BOOYENS What was your attitude as regards the political threat coming from the side of the liberation movements? MR NIEUWOUDT For the protection of the State dispensation, the National Party, with the purpose to protect it so that they should not be subverted. ADV BOOYENS Do you confirm your political objectives as explained on 133, 134, 135 and 136, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS To get back to the situation surrounding Pebco, to make it applicable to the local situation, Pebco, their activities, and why and what their political objective was, you have already told us that the Pebco people were well known to you? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV BOOYENS On a scale of prominence of activists, who were active at that stage, where would you place the three deceased? MR NIEUWOUDT I would have placed them at a high level. ADV BOOYENS As far as their political activities are concerned, and the degree of success that their political activities had, to possibly subvert the government of day, where would you place that? MR NIEUWOUDT Also on a very high level. ADV BOOYENS As far as you were concerned, were they a threat to the government in which you believed? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV BOOYENS It is also the government in whose service you were? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. And the objective that they wanted to achieve was to subvert the government of the day in violent means? ADV BOOYENS If the Commission would just bear with me. Mr Nieuwoudt, did you in other cases where you were involved with assaults, did you make an application? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I did. ADV BOOYENS Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV BOOYENS . CHAIRPERSON Mr Nolte, are there any questions from your angle? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOLTE Mr Chairman, yes, just a few questions. Mr Nieuwoudt, when Mr Van Zyl testified he said that you indicated to him on the 8th of May, that at least Mr Hashe would be there, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. That morning when I gave my input, I said that the source had made contact with Mr Hashe and the impression I got from the source of what Mr Hashe would have said to him was that all three of them would be there. MR NOLTE Mr Nieuwoudt, you also testified that Mr Van Zyl was present during interrogation. Was he present during the interrogation the whole time? MR NIEUWOUDT No, he moved in and out. All the members moved in and out and he wasn't there constantly. MR NOLTE And then with regard to the assaults, it will be said that the violent nature of the assaults was of such a nature that you won't do an application for amnesty, do you think it will have an influence on your application? MR NIEUWOUDT No. MR NOLTE Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOLTE . CHAIRPERSON Mr Du Plessis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nieuwoudt, the first question that I want to ask is do I understand you correctly that your answer does not mean that you in any way say that you have been involved in any assaults? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Do I also understand you correctly what you said at the end that if you had been involved in any way in any assault, whatsoever, there would be no reason for you to place any evidence in front of this Commission for you to get amnesty? Is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And that if you had been involved with such assaults, that you would have placed it in front of the Commission? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And that you have nothing to gain if you don't place it in front of the Commission? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Nieuwoudt, you say in your application and you refer to the issue with regard to the compartmentalisation of the operation. Previous witnesses have said that Captain Venter was not informed with regard to the true reason for the operation and that is the elimination? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS So you confirm that they were never informed with regard to the truth? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct, they were misled. ADV DU PLESSIS And is it correct to say that they were under the impression that the aim of the operation was interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you remember whether it was stated directly to them or was it implied? MR NIEUWOUDT If I can remember, it was on the morning of the 8th when Major Du Plessis informed Venter or Captain Van Zyl, I can't remember who said it, but one of them said that the members of the askaris had to arrest the people at the airport for the purpose of interrogation and then hand them over to us for interrogation. ADV DU PLESSIS You heard the evidence of the previous witnesses, am I correct, and the other witnesses have confirmed it, that under these circumstances you were never in the presence of strangers for example the presence of the askaris, that you would never assault people within their presence? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS And can I go a bit further, would you have done it in the presence of relatively strangers such as Venter and Warrant Officer Beeslaar? MR NIEUWOUDT No, I won't. ADV DU PLESSIS And then also it follows that you would not have informed them about the elimination or that you would have taken them into your confidence? MR NIEUWOUDT No, I didn't. CHAIRPERSON Did you think the askaris were not aware of the fact that members of the Security Branch assaulted people? Did you think it would be a new thing for them? MR NIEUWOUDT Could you please repeat that question? CHAIRPERSON Did you think that the askaris were not aware of the fact that members of the Security Branch assaulted people? MR NIEUWOUDT At that stage I didn't think of that, and I don't think so. CHAIRPERSON Do you think it would have been a new experience to them? MR NIEUWOUDT Sorry, could you just repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Did you think that - you say that you did not want to, you could not assault people in the presence of strangers, especially the askaris. I am asking you did you think that it would have been a new experience to the askaris to see a person being assaulted by members of the Security Branch? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Nieuwoudt, just on the basis of that, is it correct or do I make the correct deduction when I say to you that you would not have done serious assaults in the presence of the askaris, because you did not know them and you hadn't worked with them at that stage? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it is correct. ADV DE JAGER And adding to that, you don't personally have any problems with assault? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV DE JAGER You assaulted people? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DE JAGER So it wasn't a question that you didn't want to assault these people or that you had some kind of problem with that to assault people during interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, but I was under the command of Captain Van Zyl, and I knew that he would not allow assaults. ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Nieuwoudt, you testified that you caught up with the group of vehicles at Post Chalmers near Cradock? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS And then you went to Post Chalmers? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS Who arrived with which vehicle at Post Chalmers? MR NIEUWOUDT Captain Van Zyl arrived with his vehicle. The askaris with the three deceased, Captain Roelf Venter and Beeslaar with the Safari Nissan and also myself. ADV DU PLESSIS And immediately you started with the interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you remember how long you continued with the interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT It was for approximately three hours, about for o'clock that morning. ADV DU PLESSIS Did you interrogate each one of them? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I interrogated each one. ADV DU PLESSIS And the next morning, did you continue with the interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And for how long did you continue with it the next morning? MR NIEUWOUDT That was up to approximately the afternoon, at lunch. ADV DU PLESSIS That is now besides the time that you ate? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS And in the afternoon? MR NIEUWOUDT In the afternoon I also had an interview with them, and I think round about three o'clock the afternoon I ended the interrogation. ADV DU PLESSIS Is it correct Mr Nieuwoudt to say that you were in control of the interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Is it also correct to accept that in the room where the interrogation was done, that you were present the whole time whilst the interrogation was going on? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. I can perhaps also say I also went out to make some tea or whatever the case may be. I didn't sit there the whole time. I don't want to gain the impression that I was there the whole time, busy with the interrogation. ADV DU PLESSIS And you also say that the evening when you arrived there, that the askaris were there? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Is it correct to say that the askaris were used inter alia to guard these three deceased in the bus on the way there? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes.