amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS PORT ELIZABETH https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54832&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/pebco4.htm MR NIEUWOUDT ... busy with the interrogation. ADV DU PLESSIS And you also say that the evening when you arrived there the Askaris were there? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Is it correct to say the Askaris were used inter alias to guard these three deceased in the bus on the way there? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And the Askaris purpose had already expired when they arrived at Post Chalmers? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS And the next morning you also saw the Askaris there? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV DU PLESSIS MR NIEUWOUDT No, my recollection of the day is that they departed on the morning of the 9th. Captain Roelf Venter and Beeslaar were together with the Askaris there and after we ate, they departed. ADV DU PLESSIS Did you see them leave? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DU PLESSIS MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DU PLESSIS MR NIEUWOUDT My recollection of that particular day is that Mr Roelf Venter and Beeslaar as well as the Askaris were present the evening and the next morning between 10 and 11 - perhaps I could make an error with the time that they left, but they were there and then after we ate they departed. ADV DU PLESSIS Could you conceive that you could have made a mistake with regard to the time that they departed? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DU PLESSIS MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DU PLESSIS Are you prepared to concede - if we talk about the consumption of drinks with regard to Venter and Beeslaar, it could have been possible that they could have had a few drinks? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DU PLESSIS MR NIEUWOUDT They had not been assaulted, their heads were not covered. ADV DU PLESSIS MR NIEUWOUDT If I have to speculate on this, it could have been where I did not see it, when they were transported from the airport to Cradock by the Askaris. When I saw them at Cradock at Post Chalmers, their heads were not covered. And with regard to the assaults - while I was busy with one with the interrogation someone could have assaulted them , not that I have any knowledge of that. I saw no marks of assault for me to gain that impression and that is how I can recall it. ADV DU PLESSIS MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DU PLESSIS MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DU PLESSIS Let me put it to you in this way ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis, I think you have dealt with that point. ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON I think we should get onto another point. ADV DU PLESSIS MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, may I please be afforded to ask just one question, I neglected to ask my attorney and I scolded severely and so I would want the opportunity to ask that question. Mr Nieuwoudt, can you perhaps just explain to us, in this type of interrogation process where violence is not used, can you just give the Committee an indication as to how information is obtained from activists regarding this interrogation - what steps are taken, because I think that there might be a slight void regarding evidence in this regard. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DU PLESSIS That type of interrogation, is it effective in certain cases from time to time? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. I can just refer you to an incident at the - during the Vula investigation where Minister Mac Maharaj - without any assaults or pressure being place on him, was prepared to identification regarding safe houses, weapons that were concealed etc., so this is not strange. ADV DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nieuwoudt, what exactly did Major du Plessis come and do there? MR NIEUWOUDT He came to inform us that the coast was clear. ADV LAMEY Is that all? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV LAMEY Did you expect him to arrive there to come and tell you this news? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I believe that to be true. ADV LAMEY Or did he arrived unexpectedly? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV LAMEY Had it been agreed upon previously that he would pop in there and when he would come? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV LAMEY How did you know that he would arrive there? MR NIEUWOUDT He would have inform us as to whether we were to continue with the operation. ADV LAMEY MR BOOYENS ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT He was to come and inform us - after we had abducted or arrested the people at the airport, that no-one had pointed a finger at us - so we did expect him. ADV LAMEY But did you know according to a prior arrangement that he would appear? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Was an arrangement made as to when he would make an appearance? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV LAMEY Was there an indication given as to how many hours had to pass before it could be determined whether the coast was clear - if the coast was clear as you put it yourself. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY So if he had arrived a day after, then you would not have found it strange? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Instead of the 9th - if he had arrived only on the 10th, would you not have found that strange? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV LAMEY At that stage you were part of the information division under the command of Major du Plessis? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY If that was your position, are you not able to tell us how much time had to lapse before you could determine whether the coast was clear because du Plessis said that there were methods that by which you could ascertain this. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Who would they liaise with or contact? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV LAMEY Could it not have happened like that? MR NIEUWOUDT No, I believe that they would have enquired immediately at the security branch from the commanding officer and they would have said that they had seen so and so - such and such a person, that these people were arrested at the airport and they would have known in immediately. ADV LAMEY But you organised it so that it would be a British Diplomat who was to meet them and that the persons who were to arrest them would not be identifiable, in other words that they had left there under normal circumstances. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV LAMEY In other words the family could have thought that these persons who would have arranged the funds for them had taken them somewhere? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Can I just clarify something, what did you understand under the message: "The coast is clear"? - that no-one had noticed the people had gone or that no-one saw what really happened? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct, that no-on saw what really happened that we actually intercepted and arrested them at the airport. ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER But you want to know whether anybody realised as to how they disappeared? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY You say that that is all that Major du Plessis came to do there, just to inform you of this? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV LAMEY And at the stage when Major du Plessis arrived there, Captain Venter and the Askaris, had they already left? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And Major du Plessis knew the real facts as to why the persons had been abducted, he knew that the main objective was not interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Can I just refer you to paragraph 20 of your statement in your amnesty application on page 131 - by they way before I ask the question, were you still eating at the stage that Major du Plessis arrived? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot remember that exactly but I can remember that the three deceased ate and that we also offered Major du Plessis some of the meat. ADV LAMEY Did you not eat together with Captain Venter and the Askaris and the three persons and then when the meal was over Venter and the Askaris left? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY I just want to take you to the point that I want to make and refer you to page 131 of paragraph 20, you say "At that stage Major Herman du Plessis arrived alone in the vehicle, he asked questions concerning the interrogation and then departed" MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT He could have spoken to the detainees, I cannot remember correctly - he did not question them, this is as I recall it. ADV LAMEY But here it does not say that Major du Plessis questioned them, it says that he asked questions concerning the interrogation and thereafter he left. MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV LAMEY In other words, the impression is being created that Major du Plessis was interested in the interrogation which he excepted had taken place? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Why do you not say in your testimony then that Major du Plessis also asked questions concerning the interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT He could have discussed this with Captain van Zyl. ADV LAMEY You say this in this in your statement, in other words it must have been something that you knew about? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY But where do you mention the main purpose of his visit? MR NIEUWOUDT I did not mention it as such in my application. CHAIRPERSON That is the problem, it is this that Mr Lamey wants to know because according to the piece which has just been read, the impression is created that one can almost think that as far as Major du Plessis was concerned the objective was just to question these people. MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON But that main purpose is not mentioned in your application. MR NIEUWOUDT If that is so, then it must be an oversight on my part. ADV LAMEY Was it not true that the interrogation also formed a very important and integral part after the abduction of these people? MR NIEUWOUDT It was just to create the impression amongst the Askaris. ADV LAMEY Just for that reason? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY To mislead the Askaris but not to really obtain information from these three important leaders regarding any information which they might have? MR NIEUWOUDT I did question them in this regard. ADV LAMEY But I want some clarity now, do you say that the purpose of the interrogation was a dual one - on the one hand to create the impression amongst the Askaris that there was a specific reason for the abduction, and on the other hand that you also had an interest in potential information which these three Pebco members could provide you with? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true. ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION - 11 NOVEMBER 1997 - DAY 9 CHAIRPERSON Mr Nieuwoudt, you are still under oath, thank you. GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey, we finished with you yesterday? ADV LAMEY I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON You finished cross-examining yesterday? ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON All right, go on. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV LAMEY (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nieuwoudt, can you hear me? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I can. ADV LAMEY What was the initial purpose of Vlakplaas under the leadership of Captain Venter in Port Elizabeth before this operation was planned regarding the Pebco 3? MR NIEUWOUDT The purpose was the identification and tracing or tracking down of insurgents. ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV LAMEY You also testified that the creation of the alternative structures by Pebco of which these three specific persons formed the core, created a vacuum among others and a breeding ground for terrorist, is this correct? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV LAMEY Can one say that the revolutionary struggle at that stage - with the creation of this vacuum, adopted a very important dimension? MR NIEUWOUDT Correct. ADV LAMEY Because the ultimate objective of the revolutionary struggle was - by means of an armed struggle, to overthrow the Government, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT That is. ADV LAMEY And is it also correct that in view of the fact that the three Pebco members formed the core of the unrest and in creating the vacuum, that they had a great deal of information regarding terrorists and insurgents? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Oh, they were present? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Did they take part in any way? MR NIEUWOUDT Not when I was interrogating them. CHAIRPERSON What was the purpose of their presence then? MR NIEUWOUDT The purpose was to create the impression among them that we arrested these people in order to interrogate them and they were left with this impression. CHAIRPERSON But you could still have created that impression even if they were not present during the interrogation - even if they were sitting outside the house? MR NIEUWOUDT No. CHAIRPERSON Given the fact that they would have been useful with regard to the kind of information you would have been wanting from the deceased, is it not more likely that the Askaris would in fact actively take part in the interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT That might be so but in that case it did not happen, I did the interrogation. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? ADV LAMEY You knew that among these Vlakplaas members were Askaris and as you know Askaris were former ANC members and also MK members, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY As it pleases you Mr Chairman. The Askaris had a special background knowledge and a dimension which would have been handy to include them in the interrogation so that information which could possibly come forward could be verified by them. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY These specific three people, had they been detained previously and questioned? MR NIEUWOUDT I only know about Mr Hashe. ADV LAMEY Do you know whether he was assaulted during any previous detention? MR NIEUWOUDT Not that I have any knowledge of. ADV LAMEY Were you present during the previous interrogation? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, on the occasion I did question him. ADV LAMEY Was it your impression that these persons were strong leaders, fearless of the security police as Major du Plessis testified? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT During the interrogation of the deceased I confronted them directly with facts at my disposal and they replied to my questions. ADV LAMEY If they were so fearless, how did it occur that they said they were prepared to become informants? MR NIEUWOUDT I saw this in view of the fact that they were all three detained in the garage together and I thought that it was a strategy from their side and that is why I did not believe them. ADV LAMEY How did the aspect regarding the AK47 come to light? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Did you know at that stage that - immediately after he had given the information regarding the AK47, that is was not correct information? MR NIEUWOUDT I did not know that. ADV LAMEY Are you saying that you did not know that it was correct? MR NIEUWOUDT I did not believe him. ADV LAMEY You did not believe him? MR NIEUWOUDT Correct. ADV LAMEY I want to put it to you that the two applicants whom I represent will testify that Mr Hashe was assaulted that evening after he arrived at that old farmhouse. MR NIEUWOUDT I deny this most strongly. ADV LAMEY And it is then that he spoke about the AK47. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And that Mr Godolozi was also questioned that evening and also interrogated by means of beating him and kicking him. MR NIEUWOUDT I deny this most strongly, I did question him that evening. ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT I question or interrogated all three the deceased that evening. ADV LAMEY The point is that it is their testimony that they were assaulted, that you beat and kicked them. MR NIEUWOUDT I deny this. ADV LAMEY And this assault or interrogation did not take very long because it was late and they had already gone to bed or that in their presence it did not take very long because they went to bed. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Did you think that the information that these people had, that they would give it to you? MR NIEUWOUDT They did not give us any new information. ADV LAMEY No, the question is: "Did you think before this that they would give any information to you - the information that you were looking for"? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT I interrogated them and this is what I can remember as the events occurred that evening. ADV LAMEY If you knew that these persons were not going to give you the information, surely then you must have had a reason to persuade these people to give you this information by means of assaulting them? MR NIEUWOUDT I did not assault them. CHAIRPERSON The gist of the previous question as to why it lasted so long was, it these people were co-operative during the interrogation to give the information without pressure and so on and so forth, why did the interrogation have to take so long? MR NIEUWOUDT I interviewed or interrogated each one of the deceased and I confronted them with the facts at my disposal and I accepted that after three hours of questioning - and secondly we had to create the impression amongst the Askaris and the members of Vlakplaas that we were interrogating these people. CHAIRPERSON When you stopped the interrogation, where you satisfied with the information that you got from them? MR NIEUWOUDT In my opinion they gave us no new information. CHAIRPERSON Were you satisfied that they had given as much information as they were possessed of? MR NIEUWOUDT They denied some of it and they confirmed some of the questions that I put to them. CHAIRPERSON Were you satisfied that they had given you all the information that they were possessed of and which you wanted from them? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Is that the reason why subsequently you interrogated them again? MR NIEUWOUDT Are you referring to the morning of the 9th? CHAIRPERSON That is correct, in the morning. MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Well, did they give you the information to your satisfaction, in other words did you become satisfied that they had given all such information as they might know of which you wanted of them? MR NIEUWOUDT No, they did not satisfy me, we did not obtain any new information - they covered a very wide spectrum. CHAIRPERSON When you stopped the previous session of interrogation, you were still not satisfied? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Notwithstanding the fact that you were not satisfied, you did not ill-treat them in any way? MR NIEUWOUDT No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Go on Mr Lamey. ADV LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman. The premises where they were detained, was it one of your secret premises? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And you knew that Major du Plessis would at one stage come to give you the green light to go ahead with the elimination? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY So up to that stage the possibility still existed that you would not be able to continue with the elimination and that the persons could possibly be released? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And then they would have knowledge of this safe area? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Why did you not think it a good idea to blindfold them in such a case so that afterwards they would not be able to point out Post Chalmers? MR NIEUWOUDT At that stage I did not think of it and I did not do it either. ADV LAMEY I put it to you that the evidence or testimony will be - of the two applicants Mr Mogoai and Koole, that at one stage underway to Post Chalmers they were blindfolded. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And that they arrived there being blindfolded. MR NIEUWOUDT They were not blindfolded at Post Chalmers. ADV DE JAGER The question is whether the moment when they arrived at Post Chalmers, could you say whether they blindfolded then or not? MR NIEUWOUDT Not as far as I can recall. ADV LAMEY Their testimony will be further that it was during interrogation that - at the request of the Pebco 3, their blindfolds were removed. MR NIEUWOUDT That is not correct. ADV LAMEY You activated the source that would lure the people to the airport, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And you said that it was a person who pretended to be a person from the British Embassy? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Was it a person with an English accent? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Was it a White person? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT I would. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT That may be true but ...[intervention] MR NIEUWOUDT MR NIEUWOUDT No. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT Thank you for that. He was not White. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Mr Lamey? CHAIRPERSON You see now that leaves us with - in the language of the past, at least three other racial groups - do you see how far we are from that person? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. CHAIRPERSON He could have been Indian, he could have been so-called Coloured, he could have been African you know? Thank you. MR NIEUWOUDT Thank you. ADV LAMEY Seeing as this source had pretended to be a person from the British Embassy, it should have been somebody who could have spoken English with a convincing accent surely? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY You say that it was not a White person, correct? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY But would you think that the Pebco 3 - due to the particularly English accent of this person, had to be convinced that they would meet such a person at the airport? MR NIEUWOUDT They were convinced. ADV LAMEY And they could most probably have thought that it was a White person who was to meet them there? MR NIEUWOUDT That might have been so. ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV LAMEY They could have stopped on any place in the parking area? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY They could have stopped a reasonable distance from where the minibus was parked with the Askaris? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Let me just ask you, where was this person - what was arranged for the Pebco 3, where were they to meet this person from the British Embassy? MR NIEUWOUDT At the airport, they had to meet him in the bar. ADV LAMEY So that means in the airport building itself? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And we also heard testimony that there was a struggle between Pebco and AZAPO at that stage? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Major du Plessis even went so far as to testify that this was part of the deception, that the impression could have been created that AZAPO could possibly have had something to do with the disappearance of these three people, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And now your testimony is that the three Askaris had to intercept these persons at the airport. MR NIEUWOUDT That was the instruction that was given to them and that is what happened. ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY What did you think, surely you wanted this operation to be successful because a great deal of trouble was taken to get these three people to the airport? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY What would have happened if these three persons had parked further away in the parking area and the Askaris had gone to them, surely at some stage these three persons would have realised something strange was happening, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And you should have expected that the three Pebco persons could have drawn the attention of the public because they would realise that something was wrong, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT It could have been but this is not what happened. ADV LAMEY What was the specific instructions given to the Askaris? MR NIEUWOUDT As far as I can remember what Major du Plessis told Captain Venter, was that they had to arrest the three deceased at the airport. ADV LAMEY Did they have to pretend to be policemen? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Are you sure that the instructions were to arrest them? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And they could only have done that by identifying themselves as policemen? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And you and - you also testified that you and Captain van Zyl were also in the parking area in your vehicle? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY If the Askaris had to arrest them, why could you not have done this? MR NIEUWOUDT Because we were known to them. ADV LAMEY But what would the difference have been if the Askaris had said that they were security police, then surely they could have been linked to the police and their disappearance? MR NIEUWOUDT They were unknown in this area. ADV DE JAGER ADV LAMEY That is so. Thank you, I understand the remark. But if this was true, then other people could have noticed you and Captain van Zyl in the airport as well as your vehicles? MR NIEUWOUDT They could. ADV LAMEY What purpose would it have served to have these Askaris arrest these persons? MR NIEUWOUDT We did not move around and no-one identified us at the airport. ADV LAMEY It did not happen like that but it could have. MR NIEUWOUDT It could have but it did not. ADV LAMEY The applicants I represent will say that it did not happen in this way at all, they were instructed to park the minibus there and to wait there, it was indicated where they had to wait by Captain Venter. They saw that Captain Venter and other White men were moving towards the airport building, then they were there and then they were not. I suppose that in view of the fearlessness of these Pebco 3 that you could just as well have intercepted them at the airport and could have told them that they were being taken for interrogation. MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV LAMEY Because these people were know to you and as you said Hashe had been interrogated before already. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Did you see exactly how the Askaris did the interception? MR NIEUWOUDT What I could see - as far as I could see, yes. ADV LAMEY What did you see? MR NIEUWOUDT I saw that they persuaded them to get into the bus and thereafter they went to Mr Hashe to where he was parked, they persuaded him and he was helped into the minibus without any resistance. ADV LAMEY So they first took away the two and Hashe while Hashe was parking his car? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY I want to put it to you that I find that version very strange and improbable because Hashe would immediately have realised that there was a problem and that he would have ensured that he would get away. MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV LAMEY MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV LAMEY May I just have a moment please Mr Chairman? You also testified that you did not see whether any photos of the Pebco 3 were shown to the Askaris. MR NIEUWOUDT No, I said that on the morning of the 8th, the three photos of the deceased were given to Captain Venter. ADV LAMEY Yes, to Captain Venter but not to the Askaris? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY But they will testify - that is the Askaris, that no photos of these three persons were shown to them. MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot comment on that. ADV LAMEY They were just given instructions from Captain Venter to meet them at a designated point. They waited there and at a point it was told that they had to get something to eat and thereafter Captain Venter and other members arrived and they were then said to follow a vehicle which they did right up to the airport and they were shown where to park. MR NIEUWOUDT They did make the arrest at the airport. ADV LAMEY Were these three persons - the Pebco 3, were they handcuffed on their arrival at Post Chalmers? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot remember that. ADV LAMEY Because Mr Mogoai and Koole say that it did happen in this way, at one stage they were handcuffed before they arrived at Post Chalmers. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY The morning to the camp beds, are you now referring to the early morning hours? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV LAMEY These camp beds, are they fold away camp beds? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY What would be the purpose of handcuffing them to these camp beds? MR NIEUWOUDT Only to ensure that they do not escape. ADV LAMEY Surely they could have just walked away with their camp bed and the handcuffs? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY The road that passes Post Chalmers goes by - is close the house? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON But is this witness not saying they were chained onto the beds or did I not hear correctly? ADV LAMEY He said to camp beds. CHAIRPERSON Sorry? ADV LAMEY The witness said that they were chained to camp beds and the point is ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, you are saying that they can just stand up and walk away with the handcuffs, beds and all? ADV LAMEY The point is Mr Chairman, that the camp bed is quite a moveable object, you take it out of the vehicle and you fold it up ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think we should restrict ourselves to important aspects of the matter. ADV LAMEY As it please you Mr Chairman. Mr Mogoai, says that he was handcuffed in an old disused farmhouse and that he saw that Mr Godolozi and Galela were in the cells, what do you have to say about this? MR NIEUWOUDT I deny this most strongly, we did not use the cells. ADV LAMEY Mr Koole will also testify that he can remember you, your name and that you were Niewoudt of the security branch, can you remember him? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot. ADV LAMEY And he will also say that or both of them will say that spent two nights at Post Chalmers. MR NIEUWOUDT That is not correct. ADV LAMEY Are you sure of that? MR NIEUWOUDT I am positive. ADV LAMEY And before they left - Captain Venter was still there before their departure, they left before Captain Venter and he told them that they had to return to Glen Connor that morning and Mr Koole will testify that you told him how to go or to travel to Glen Connor via Jansenville and Graaff-Reinet. This was another road, a different one that they had travelled the evening from the airport to Post Chalmers. MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot remember that, the only Askari that I knew who was present was Moss whom I knew personally. ADV LAMEY You say that there was an Askari called Moss? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY My instructions are that there two Askaris, Mr Mamasela and Mr Mogoai and one permanent member, Warrant Officer Koole. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Is it not possible that you can be making a mistake about this, that Captain Moss could have come to Port Elizabeth together with the Vlakplaas members and that he was there and that during the course of their stay there that - before this operation, that you had something to do with him but that he was not there on this specific evening? MR NIEUWOUDT I was not involved with the terrorist desk and I denied this to Mr Dumisa, I said that they did not report to me namely Captain Venter. I did not even know Captain Venter - of the whole team and those who were at Post Chalmers, I only knew Moss personally. And I also said this to Mr Dumisa as well as to Advocate Chris Mac Adam. ADV LAMEY You know of the existence of Vlakplaas before 1985, is that correct? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Did you know that they - as early as 1980 five years earlier, that they already existed from then? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY And you said that the reason why these Pebco 3 persons were not to be assaulted was that you did not know whether the Askaris had been involved in assaults previously? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Amongst others, the reason? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY In view of their main objective of tracking down terrorists and insurgents, why did you come to this conclusion? Is the opposite not true, that you would have thought that these persons had been exposed to interrogation and had been present at assaults - during assaults? MR NIEUWOUDT During my career they have never been present before this case, I did not have any knowledge of their abilities regarding interrogation. ADV LAMEY You heard that apart from the testimony of what Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole will say is that your co-applicants have referred to what Beeslaar said, that they were at Post Chalmers a day or two after the abduction and that that evening they spent a few hours there and that there was a braaivleis or a barbecue. MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Did they use two vehicles or did they travel in one vehicle? MR NIEUWOUDT They used two vehicles, Captain Venter was in the Safari Nissan and the Black members were in their minibus. ADV LAMEY That first evening you were mainly involved in the interrogation, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV LAMEY Are you sure about your testimony that the Askaris parked their minibus in front of the garage? MR NIEUWOUDT That is what I can recall. ADV LAMEY Is there a possibility that this could not have been so? MR NIEUWOUDT That might be true. ADV LAMEY Because they will testify that it was not so, that they were not given instructions to guard these persons during the evening and that their minibus was not parked in front of the garage door. MR NIEUWOUDT That is what I can remember. ADV LAMEY A moment please? Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY No, Mr Chairman, the gist of the statement to Mr Nieuwoudt - and that was also my recollection, is what - not directly in front of the garage in order to guard them. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but my recollection is that you put it to the witness or rather conceded that they had parked in front of the garage - for what ever reason, but you put it to one of the applicants that the Askaris had in fact pulled up their car and parked it in front of the garage. ADV LAMEY I definitely did not, my recollection Mr Chairman is not that I put it in the way that it was directly in front of - in close proximity to the garage because ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY My recollection from the instructions is Mr Chairman - but I will just confirm it also again, is that it was some distance away from the garage but let me just make precisely sure. The point is - it was during I think the evidence of Mr van Zyl, that he said they were supposed to guard them and the vehicle was placed in front of the garage to create the impression in his evidence that that was the way in which they had to prevent them from coming out of the garage. And my instructions in this regard is that was not so but I will get instructions as to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just get instructions as to whether the car was not parked in front of the garage. ADV LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka, in the meantime you can proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV NYOKA Very short Mr Chairperson. Mr Nieuwoudt, Mr du Plessis said it was only the three Pebco executive leaders who had to be killed and therefore taken to the airport and you were left with that task, can you tell us how did you manage that feat of ensuring that precisely those three had to go to the airport? MR NIEUWOUDT That is as it was. I had the instruction that the three people had to - we had to get them together and there was the opportunity and I also gave the instruction to the source to lure the three deceased to the airport. ADV NYOKA Do you know precisely what it did in implementing your instruction? MR NIEUWOUDT I gave him the instruction to - that the President, the General Secretary and the Organising Secretary had to be present and I was assured that Mr Hashe would be present because he spoke to him personally. ADV NYOKA He must have told you how he did it, did he tell you how he managed to do that precisely? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA My instructions are that - from Mrs Hashe, she was at home with her husband, there were many other people in the house and Mr Hashe got a call next door in the neighbourhood, he went to answer the phone and the message that he got was that Mr Fazi said he Hashe, Ngoi, Fazi and Malgas must go to the airport - those four, not these three. That Mr Hashe, Mr Ngoi, Mr Fazi and Mr Malgas must go to the airport to meet this diplomat but because he and Mr Ngoi had to meet Mrs Blackburn in Utenhage at a meeting, they could not go. In other words, not those three but four people differently except for Mr Hashe. CHAIRPERSON Can you just repeat those names? ADV NYOKA CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT I pertinently gave him the instruction to get the three, that was my instruction that I had to carry out - the instruction that I got from Major du Plessis. CHAIRPERSON ADV NYOKA Mr Fazi and Mr Ngoi, they had to go and meet Mrs Molly Blackburn in Utenhage who strangely died that very year in December 1985. My point Mr Nieuwoudt, is that since your source did not detail how he managed to lure these three, you could not have known what happened - how he managed to do it, you did not even bother to ask him how he managed to do so. MR NIEUWOUDT No, I gave him the instruction for those three people and those three people arrived at the airport. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV NYOKA What place? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA No, the information that I have is that the source phoned the UDF offices in Zwede and this information was relayed to Mrs Hashe. MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV NYOKA Unless of course the source was inside the UDF offices, unless of course the source was inside the UDF offices and did not phone from elsewhere, any comment? MR NIEUWOUDT I do no wish to comment on that. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT No. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka, I missed something, you said - you asked the witness whether he knew as to where to the call was made. ADV NYOKA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What did you say in that regard - how did you put it to the witness in that regard? ADV NYOKA CHAIRPERSON ADV NYOKA No, it was made to a neighbourhood. CHAIRPERSON To a what? ADV NYOKA To a neighbourhood and Mr Hashe was called to go to next door or whatever to answer the phone. On the other side it was Mr Fazi who said we have got a message that we must go to meet a British Diplomat but because - and he mentioned the names, himself, Mr Hashe, Mr Ngoi and Mr Malgas but because he and Mr Ngoi had a commitment elsewhere, he would like him to go with others. He did not mention who those others were but because Mr Godolozi and Mr Galela were there, Mr Hashe being an elderly person said: "...[indistinct], accompany me to the airport" - those are my instructions. So it was just by chance that Mr Galela and Godolozi were there. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT That is as far as I know. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT Can I just refer you to the microfiche that was submitted of Mr Hashe, ...[indistinct] Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we have it in front of us. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT It was in May the Friday, it was the 3rd, four days before they were abducted, before the 8th - five days. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT My information that I received from him is that he phoned Mr Hashe and I have no reason to distrust him. ADV NYOKA All right, I will not belabour the point. Was this source just an informer or an ordinary person or a member of the Pebco Executive - three choices? MR NIEUWOUDT He was a collaborator. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT I used him as a collaborator. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT He was a member of Pebco. ADV NYOKA I gather that you are not interested to tell the public who he was but are you not keen to have - to take the Committee in your confidence and tell them in camera who this source was because they must be convinced that your are - you are making a full disclosure Mr Nieuwoudt? I may not be interested to know but can you tell the Committee in camera - we adjourn, you tell them who your source was? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS Yes, Mr Chairman, yes. CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS ADV NYOKA Maybe Mr Chairman, I can come in here, I was not present when that decision was made but when we read in the paper that there was someone who mentioned names of people who were spies of the previous Government, I thought that - and he did that in Committee, I thought that it was in order therefore to ask such questions. I did not know that it depended on the keenness or not of the witness and I thought that it was in conformance with the legal requirement that a full disclosure must made. If for instance, a witness does not make a full disclosure of that person, how are we to believe him about the rest of other people implicated in that - in the murder and abduction? ADV DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER ADV NYOKA Mr Chairman, just one point. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Okay. CHAIRPERSON ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT No, he was a full time informer. ADV NYOKA So, there were other things he informed you about? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV NYOKA All right. And was he compensated for his role as an informer naturally? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, he was a paid agent. ADV NYOKA Mr Mamasela said that the movements of the three activists were monitored from the time that Mr Hashe went to fetch other people, they were known and there was radio contact throughout, in other words they were not just sitting next to the airport and by the time they had left Vlakplaas they were instructed to come specifically for this plot. MR BOOYENS ADV NYOKA Did you understand my two questions despite what Mr Booyens said, did you understand them? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. ADV NYOKA Thank you, maybe he can answer them for himself. Can you answer Mr Nieuwoudt? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA The day after the 9th ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER "In the meantime" "the audio of the observation team, we listened to that" You see that the end of tape 2 - and at that stage the specific tape was changed. "In the meantime" and then the audio seems to me to be: "Over the radio" His version is - to summarise, is that there was someone who informed you with regard to the operation from the moment that they picked up the people until the point that they arrived at the airport. MR NIEUWOUDT No, that was not the case. ADV SANDI Sorry, can I ask a question Mr Nyoka, at this stage? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV SANDI Is that the same source you said had an English accent? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV SANDI Now, when you gave instructions to this source, did you say he must say to Mr Hashe he must bring Mr Godolozi and Mr Galela along with him? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV SANDI Thank you. ADV NYOKA Just to digress on two occasion a little bit, Mrs Hashe said that on the 9th - after the 9th, the day after the 9th - that is the day after the death, a policeman stormed into her house in the evening and assaulted her sons - tear gas was poured. As a field worker, did you get to know about that incident just the day after the death of her husband? MR NIEUWOUDT I have no knowledge of that incident. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT No, I have no knowledge. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Who burnt it? MR NIEUWOUDT What I ...[intervention] ADV NYOKA Let me put it this way, did the security police have anything to do with the burning? MR NIEUWOUDT No, those were attacks in the feud between AZAPO and UDF. ADV NYOKA My instructions are that there were no such feud, unless my client is wrong. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT No, we just handled both spectrums. ADV NYOKA Why did you choose the spot at Kwazakele for the burning of the car? MR NIEUWOUDT There were many vehicles - wrecks being there, who were burnt out there. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT I know of this, there were many necklace murders committed there. ADV NYOKA Two applicants, Mr - the two applicants said there was a roadblock - or it was Mr Mamasela, after the group had left the airport at some stage and you denied that, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV NYOKA Yes, two applicants. Why will someone just say there was a roadblock if there was none - it had nothing to do with the abduction and murder? Do you know? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA I wish to state that there could have been a roadblock just to ensure that the abduction group was not followed by uninvited persons, hence the roadblock? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA And Mr Venter, Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole said the three activists had their heads covered including Mr Beeslaar, you denied that that was the case. MR NIEUWOUDT As I said earlier, their heads were not covered. ADV NYOKA Why would three people say so and mention this specific thing which is not ordinary if that is not true? I have a difficulty with that. Two of them are represented by one lawyer, the other two by separate lawyers and yet they say the same thing. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA And you said that handcuffs - the activists were handcuffed to their camp beds. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV NYOKA Are you seriously suggesting that the handcuffs were brought to Cradock only for that purpose or being handcuffed to the bed and not earlier on? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA So, you did not use them once you had them in your custody? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA I will not argue with you, I do not know what you have in your briefcase. Mr Beeslaar and Venter said they left for Cradock the following day, yet you said they were leaving Cradock for Port Elizabeth - two different versions, which is which? Which one can you choose of the two? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA And again you said that - they said that there was braaing and drinking, you deny all that? MR NIEUWOUDT It was not a festive occasion, I do not use strong liquor so I deny it most strongly. ADV NYOKA What I want to know, was there weak and strong liquor but that you did not partake of strong liquor, was there weak liquor at all like beer? MR NIEUWOUDT No, and I know that Captain van Zyl would not have allowed that and that is why I can say quite positively that no alcohol was consumed at that occasion. ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Nyoka. Mr Nieuwoudt, I thought yesterday you said - you used the words: "There was no strong liquor", what kind of liquor did you have if any liquor at all? MR NIEUWOUDT We had tea which I used and cold drinks. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT Alcohol. CHAIRPERSON It may be that the interpretation came differently. MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Okay. ADV NYOKA You see the strange coincidence is that Mr Dirk Coetzee said that in the Sizwe Kondile matter where the murder was being committed - when the murder was being committed, there was braai and drink - someone separate as if the modus operandi is the same. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Maybe there was such a braai and drinks but you did not enjoy them, they were done so badly that you denied they were held at all? MR NIEUWOUDT Which braai do you refer to? ADV NYOKA The one that is being referred by Mr Beeslaar and Venter and Mr Mogoai and Koole, maybe the one who made the braai or drinks did it so badly that you deny that it was there - you need not answer to that one. CHAIRPERSON ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT Thank you Mr Nyoka. ADV NYOKA Mr Mamasela stated that all the Pebco leaders starting with Mr Hashe and then Mr Galela - both on the same day and then finally Mr Godolozi, were assaulted by being hit, kicked and struck with an iron pipe and a stick. Mr Mamasela stated that the reason for this first assault was because Mr Hashe was - you were not happy with the answers that he was giving you, he provoked anger in you, any comment about that? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Before the operation was launched, how were the relations between you and him and even during the operation? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Then why would he pick you out of four people as being the one who used an iron pipe, why you if there no bad relations before? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA All right. Is it not correct that during the first amnesty application here in Port Elizabeth or Kuzile Jack, you admitted having assaulted him not so? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA With a sjambock? MR NIEUWOUDT I did. ADV NYOKA Because he was rebellious or stubborn, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT No, because I wanted to get information from him, that was my instruction. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is so. ADV NYOKA You said because he was rebellious you took this sjambock and hit him - I cross-examined you. MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it is the case. ADV NYOKA In other words, you were not happy with his responses, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV NYOKA Is it furthermore not correct that in the same hearing you admitted having assaulted township students with that sjambock, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it is the case. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT No, in the same case where refer to the sjambock, I also used it in 1980 with school boycotts, so I cannot see how you can make that assumption. ADV NYOKA And you admitted yesterday that you did assault other people before but in that application you said you only assaulted Mr Jack and the school children. MR NIEUWOUDT: I applied for the fact that I assaulted Mr Jack and I also admitted that. ADV NYOKA You said yesterday, there were other people that you assaulted, you said: "Other people" - plural, to singular. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct and then also the late Mr Biko. ADV NYOKA And both applicants, Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole stated that the Pebco leaders were assaulted by everyone including themselves and yet you said there was no assault. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Are you saying that there was a possibility whilst you were busy interrogating, there could have been an assault with regard to the other two that remained behind? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Why not? Just off the record, why not - why did you not confront them about these strange and wild allegations - off the record? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Would that have been the right thing to do? ADV NYOKA I think so because they are not co-accused, they ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well, one could also subsequently come and say you were trying to influence them. ADV NYOKA CHAIRPERSON I have some severe misgivings about the validity of your criticism because when people have got two such divergent versions and he goes to one of them - well, he might have done that but he could just as well later be criticised and it be said: "Why did you speak to them, were you trying to influence them" and so on. ADV NYOKA All right. CHAIRPERSON It could be a problematic situation. ADV NYOKA All right. MR NIEUWOUDT Thank you Chairperson. ADV NYOKA You mentioned yesterday - I just want to finish on the assault, you mentioned yesterday about "Operation Vula". MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV NYOKA Is it not correct that the context in which "Operation Vula" occurred was different to the one of the apartheid era in the sense that it occurred in 1990 during the Groote Schuur discussions on the cessation of hostilities, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that was while negotiations were continuing, they continued with the liberation struggle. ADV NYOKA One of the issues being discussed was the release of political prisoners, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV NYOKA The reason why Mr Maharaj was not arrested despite his confession was because there was discussion about the releasing of people doing what he did. MR NIEUWOUDT He was arrested, Mr Mac Maharaj and in terms of Security Legislation he was detained and President Mandela personally came to visit him in my presence. ADV NYOKA The reasons why he volunteered the information was because he had nothing to loose because there were discussions about the release of political prisoners. MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV NYOKA And he was never convicted and sentenced, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT No, because Mr de Klerk stopped the whole court process that was part of the negotiations because it dealt with the Groote Schuur Minute, the Pretoria Minute that the MK would not cease their armed struggle - that was what the negotiations were all about. ADV NYOKA You said that there will be no reason why you will omit the assault if you killed - if you murdered the three, there will be no reason for you to omit the assault, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV NYOKA In that "Bosberaad" about strategy to be adopted towards the TRC process, there was also a strategy about how to tackle this particular issue that you were going to omit - assault. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA CHAIRPERSON ADV NYOKA On arriving at Post Chalmers, it was stated that the so-called Askaris were guarding the activists in the garage ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT Thank you Sir. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Nieuwoudt, you are still under oath. GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka, you may continue. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV NYOKA (cont) With regard to your written statement you said: "Before the three Pebco leaders were eliminated you wanted to interrogate them about firstly, their regular visits to Lesotho and secondly, their implementation of the: "M-Plan" and that you started with Mr Godolozi and then the remaining two one by one" Not so? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is the case. ADV NYOKA So when you said in your oral evidence you asked them about their activities, you are referring about these two particular instances or issues? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV NYOKA Did you not ask Mr Hashe about the whereabouts of his children, one in Lesotho and the other one married to the then - to Mr Popu Molefi before he became Premier of North West? MR NIEUWOUDT I had knowledge of that, I asked him about that and also that Gumba Pankidobo who had an affair with Dumisa. ADV NYOKA Is it correct that you began the interrogation in jest by suggesting that the activists love money and which had led to their arrest and you asked Mr Hashe where he got his money from and to which he replied he was a vegetable vendor and a business - shebeen owner? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Is it not correct that in you written statement you said "On the arrival of the three leaders they were taken to the garage and that you were in the house and they were taken one by one and the Askaris were guarding them at the garage whilst the other members - security branch, were moving in and out" MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is how I put it. ADV NYOKA So if that is the case then, the Askaris must have been stationed in the garage and the people who were doing the in and out must be the other security members, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA And in fact it was going to flow from their mandate to abduct, to continue guarding them where they were stationed and that is in the garage, not so? - the Askaris mandate. MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV NYOKA If that is the case and the Askaris were in the garage, how could Mr Mamasela have known what was being said about the daughters of Mr Hashe - about his businesses, if he was in the garage because I would assume that he will not hear anything? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA And in your statement you also said that - you further said that, the Askaris role in the former Eastern Province was to quote "The identification and collection of information around terrorism" Unquote. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT I have said it several times, there was no assault. ADV NYOKA Mr Mamasela further said that you were quoting frequently from the Bible. MR NIEUWOUDT I know of two instances where I quoted from the Bible and I can just briefly refer to those two instances and it was not in this instance, the first one was with my case and I refer you to my application, page 98 "The State versus Sakkie Makuzoma" And then the second instance where I dealt with the Bible and the second instance where I had a discussion with detainees with regard to the Bible was in the Young Christian Workers who were used by the Roman Catholic Church and the terminology that they usually used was: "See, judge and act". They see the opportunity or the problem and then they use the Bible to verify it and those are the only two instances where I refer to the Bible. ADV NYOKA Are you therefore saying that he was dramatising by saying that you were quoting from the Bible? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV NYOKA I wonder why he would say that, it would not help his case? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Were the activists co-operating with you when you were - were the activists - or just to correct you before we move on, Mr Makuzoma is the MD of Transnet, not Director of Spoornet. Were the activists co-operating when you were interrogating them? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Did you get much information? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV NYOKA Then why did it take so long - I know Mr Lamey asked that, but why did it take so long then? MR NIEUWOUDT I dealt with the whole spectrum with each one of them based on the information at my disposal. ADV NYOKA And you said you had interrogated Mr Hashe before? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV NYOKA In that instance where you had interrogated him, did he volunteer such information like an AK47? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV NYOKA If he was not under cohesion, pressure or any assault, why would he do so in this instance if he had not done so before? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA I put it to you that he may have mentioned that because he was being severely assaulted and he had to do something or to say something incriminating. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA And you said all of them offered to be informers maybe as a ploy for the interrogation to be stopped, why will they do so because they were not being harmed, they were being kept safely and they were given food? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA And when you were sitting with them, did they not ask why they were abducted, why they were unlawfully detained, why there were foreign policemen with them and why they were taken 260 kilometres away from P.E.? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Yet as Mr van Zyl said: "They were at ease", are you saying they were at ease despite all those strange circumstances? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV NYOKA Could you say therefore the interrogation was a success? MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV NYOKA Mr van Zyl said he had - involved in the abduction and murder plot and that your role was just to be involved in that, why did you go further and go beyond the bounds of your mandate by interrogating - the mission was thus simply to kill? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA But they subsequently left the following morning according to you? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Then you must have thought they were foolish, very foolish for you to believe that. Any comment? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA With regard to the sleeping mixture, is it not correct that in the 1982 Mthimkhulu and Madaka murder you supplied the sleeping pill, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Why was it not the case this time because the modus operandi was similar? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Did you see the person who was actually administering the sleeping mixture in the coffee? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, I was present. ADV NYOKA Who did so? MR NIEUWOUDT It was Captain van Zyl. ADV NYOKA And who made the coffee? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA So you drank tea and the others drank coffee? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. ADV NYOKA Finally, a final issue of the shooting. In the Mthimkhulu and Madaka matter you stated that you used your own service pistol, why did you not use it this time? MR NIEUWOUDT Because Captain van Zyl gave me the weapon. ADV NYOKA In your written statement you said you were not sure who you shot but yesterday I was surprised to learn that you were sure that you shot Mr Godolozi but in your written statement you said CHAIRPERSON What page? ADV NYOKA CHAIRPERSON I see. ADV NYOKA Page 41, 132 - so my translation is correct. CHAIRPERSON Page what - 132? ADV NYOKA Page 42. Page 41 paragraph 22 - no, 1st paragraph, thank you. In your written statement you said you were not sure who you shot ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MS HARTLE CHAIRPERSON Where - page 132 and paragraph? ADV NYOKA 1st paragraph on top. MS HARTLE ADV NYOKA My question Mr Nieuwoudt, is that for 12 years - let me rephrase, for 11 and a half years you were not sure who you shot but yesterday suddenly you were so sure that you even told Mr van Zyl who you had shot, why is there such a difference? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Yesterday not only were you sure as to who you had shot but you went so far as to tell us who shot the rest. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Is it not correct that you re-visited the situation - thought about it, after Mr Lotz was taxed on that aspect this week? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON It would have made no harm when you made your statement to have added - just as you did yesterday, to have added that van Zyl shot so and so and Lotz shot so and so - just as you did yesterday. MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, true. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT I can continue and say that after the bags and the content was thrown into the Fish River afterwards. ADV NYOKA You noted that I asked you twice, not so - I was fair to you, I asked you twice, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Nyoka? ADV NYOKA I just want to ask you two aspects about that one. If you shot a person outside and you wanted to cover your tracks, why is that you did not clean that blood to remove the evidence that there was shooting outside - because you did not mention that? Any comment? MR NIEUWOUDT Please repeat the question. ADV NYOKA My question is: "If you shot the three Pebco leaders outside and there was blood - in order to cover your tracks, you would have cleared the blood for any intruder in that place so that he or she does not see that there was something happening there"? In other words, why did you not clear the blood? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA And secondly, why did you not try to retrieve the cartridges from the rifle - three cartridges. Was one shot - the cartridge must have gone off, the second one shot etc., why did you not try to check for them and remove them because that was never said by anyone? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA You cannot remember because no firearm was used, that is the reason - no weapon was used. If you were the professionals you proclaim to be, you would have checked for cartridges Mr Nieuwoudt, not so? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, but they were shot. ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA Please comment. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV NYOKA NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV NYOKA CHAIRPERSON Ms Hartle? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS HARTLE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nieuwoudt, what is your motivation for applying for amnesty? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE This is the first time that we hear any mention of an apology. MR NIEUWOUDT No, I have apologised in my other applications. MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. MS HARTLE "Verrelangs" MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE And when did you make your application for amnesty - the various applications, I assume that you lodged them simultaneously? MR NIEUWOUDT On the 13th of December. MS HARTLE And that would be after you were named by Colonel Roelf Venter in the hearings in Johannesburg in October last year? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Would you have brought this application but for the fact that you were named? MR NIEUWOUDT No, at that stage I was in the process of applying for amnesty. MS HARTLE Why not? MR NIEUWOUDT Because I still had a case against me and I did not trust in the process at that stage. MS HARTLE You recognise the objectives of the Act and the purpose of this Commission and the application for amnesty? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Mr Nieuwoudt, I must put it to you that in my many years of experience as a jurist, I have never encountered before somebody relating such gory details of a death without showing a flicker of emotion on his face. MR NIEUWOUDT That is your observation. ADV DE JAGER How many years experience Ms Hartle? CHAIRPERSON MS HARTLE As the Committee pleases. The decision to eliminate the Pebco 3, would you say that that could be attributed to the very successful stay-a-way which had been organised in Port Elizabeth on the 17th, 18th and 19th of March 1985? MR NIEUWOUDT Not only with the stay-a-way actions but we were in a state of war and conflict, anarchy, unrest. MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT No. MS HARTLE Why do you say no? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT Can you just mention the page again please. MS HARTLE Page 123, typed page 32. MR BOOYENS MS HARTLE My question will flow from that part of the submission. Were the Pebco 3 specifically identified as persons who were the cause of the uprising? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE By whom? MR NIEUWOUDT By the JSMC and our commanding officers. MS HARTLE Did you personally hold the view that those particular three persons were problematic? MR NIEUWOUDT I did. MS HARTLE Now, at page 125 of your submissions just before paragraph 9, it reads "That is was of fundamental importance that the leadership of Pebco be neutralised in order to take away the leaders from the organisation and to frighten the remaining leader element" MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Was it your intention - how would it act as a deterrent, what was the intention behind the decision? MR NIEUWOUDT Just as I stated. MS HARTLE How would it deter other leaders if - your operation was going to be a clandestine one, how would it deter other leaders? MR NIEUWOUDT Because they did not know what had happened to their leaders and that would have possibly have limited the activities. MS HARTLE Mr Nieuwoudt, I want to point to an oddity in your submissions at page 126 in leading up to the political motivation and the decisions which were taken. You say "At this stage there was no reason for Colonel Snyman to question the submission and motivation of Major du Plessis" MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Why do you mention hearsay in your submissions? MR NIEUWOUDT My attorney stated it as this and these were deductions that I had made when I mentioned this to him and during our consultations. MS HARTLE And then further in paragraph 11 you say "After I struggled with my conscience" For whom? MR NIEUWOUDT Once again this is hearsay, I was not there but I know Colonel Snyman. MS HARTLE You see, I fail to appreciate why you should mention in your application how they must have felt or how they must have perceived the situation. MR NIEUWOUDT This is just a mere deduction and my attorney included this - these whole deductions and hearsay. MS HARTLE And in paragraph 12 you say "Colonel Snyman had no further part in the planning or execution of this operation" MR NIEUWOUDT Because he was not there. MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE What about subsequently? MR NIEUWOUDT Because the planning and execution, he was not involved in this at all. MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE And you disagree with that? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE "possible combating measures". And by way of introduction: in respect of a meeting which was to take place on the 19th of March. Now I want to refer you in particular to paragraph 24 of that document, it begins and the foot of page 245 and carries on 246. MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Roman numeral III, could you please read that out? MR NIEUWOUDT "The SA police must use the full means at their disposal to suppress unrest but they still - their actions must lead to the minimum loss of life"? MS HARTLE And an instruction to eliminate the Pebco 3 would be inconsistent with that, do you agree? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE And then further in C - now, this paragraph was accepted in an amended form and I refer you now to page 242. MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Now, this would be the minutes of the meeting of the Security Council held at Tuinhuys on the 18th of March 1985. MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE At which - if I can just digress briefly, was attended by Mr P W Botha, Mr F W de Klerk and Mr Louis le Grange. MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE And paragraph C was adopted in an amended form and will you please read what was accepted at that meeting? MR NIEUWOUDT "Agitator leaders, must be removed from the community in a selective way" MS HARTLE Please carry on. MR NIEUWOUDT "It is preferable to act against identified individuals from all racial groups where it can possibly in the interest of security, these people must be [no translation] The negative publicity which originates from mass arrests must be weighed up against the benefit which is gained from that" MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER Sorry, on page 246 and that was the first document, is that correct - dated the 13th of March? MS HARTLE That is correct Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER The one on page 242 is dated the 18th of March, is that correct? MS HARTLE That is correct. ADV DE JAGER And there is a change in paragraph C "Agitator leaders must be removed selectively out of the community and be prosecuted as soon as possible" MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER MS HARTLE Mr Chairman, perhaps if you read paragraph F, the introduction to the amendment to that sub-paragraph C, it might explain the motivation for the change. ADV DE JAGER The point I wanted to make is the matter of the instruction to prosecute has been changed. MS HARTLE Now, all of these things were said at this meeting and I want to know how it is that Mr Louis le Grange could have come away from that meeting and had an informal discussion with Mr du Plessis and he could have gained the impression - or rather with Colonel Snyman, that he could have gained the impression that the instruction was to eliminate? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot comment on that, I was not there but it is clear that there was pressure - as you have pointed out to me from the amendment, that there was pressure from the side of the Government that the image that we could not control the unrest and perhaps that motivated him to say that to Snyman after Snyman had made a submission that legal options served no purpose. MS HARTLE When did you first have access to this document - the minutes of that meeting? MR NIEUWOUDT 1993. MS HARTLE Sorry. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, am I under some kind of miscomprehension here, was the meeting with the late Mr le Grange, did it not take place in February? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON MS HARTLE CHAIRPERSON MS HARTLE Yes, as the Committee pleases. If the instruction was given in February even more so after this meeting at Tuynhuys, Mr le Grange would not I submit, have given an instruction to eliminate because that would have been entirely inconsistent with the feelings of that meeting at Tuynhuys. MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT I have no comment, the only deduction - I can only speculate in this regard, that pressure had possibly been placed on him by the Cabinet that he had to speak to the police and ensure that they combat the unrest. That is all that I can say in this regard because we had pressure placed on us. MS HARTLE When for the first time were you given the instruction to eliminate the three? MR NIEUWOUDT It was approximately a week before the abduction or perhaps even two weeks before, I cannot recall exactly. MS HARTLE Was it communicated to you in clear and unequivocal terms that your instruction was to kill? MR NIEUWOUDT That is true, I had instructions and I want to put it clearly once again, in all my applications I stated that I was the junior, I did everything on instruction, I did nothing on my own - I only acted on instruction and I want to emphasise this. MS HARTLE And what was the exact instruction given to you? How was it communicated to you? MR NIEUWOUDT That the three deceased were to be eliminated. MS HARTLE Those three were named specifically. MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE And where were you informed of this instruction? MR NIEUWOUDT By Major du Plessis in his office. MS HARTLE Who was present? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Did you discuss the finer details of the plan - how it was to be implemented etc? MR NIEUWOUDT What I can recall is the method in which it had to be executed, where it had to be done and to create the impression that they had left the country, that is basically what was discussed. And I was given the instruction to get the three together and the occasion arose on the 3rd of May. MS HARTLE Do I understand correctly that you through your source managed to contrive that the three persons - connive rather, that the three persons would be together at one place and thus you would be afforded an opportunity to abduct them? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Was there ever any question of any other of the leadership being involved? MR NIEUWOUDT No. MS HARTLE Was there any discussion regarding why the three persons were named - you must have appreciated that it was a drastic instruction? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so. MS HARTLE Was there a discussion around that? MR NIEUWOUDT That is so, we gave daily reports to Major du Plessis. MS HARTLE Was there a specific discussion concerning those three persons in order to justify your decision - the decision that had been given to you - the order that had been given to you? MR NIEUWOUDT It was discussed often - actually on a daily basis, regarding the activities of those three people. MS HARTLE Did you question the order at all? MR NIEUWOUDT No, I did not. MS HARTLE Why not? MR NIEUWOUDT Because I was on the ground, I realised that we were in a war situation and there was no other actions that we could take in order to curtail the unrest, so I made peace with the instructions that I had received from du Plessis. MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE For other reasons, other than Mthimkhulu and the Pebco 3 operation? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Now, you were at the airport when the three were abducted? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Why did you go to the airport if it was intended to - if your intention in involving the Askaris was to keep a low profile? MR NIEUWOUDT I cannot remember specifically except to ensure that the actions were or that the operations were successful and I know the three persons personally or I knew them personally. MS HARTLE The yellow bakkie in which the three had arrived, who removed that from the airport - who drove it from the airport? MR NIEUWOUDT I did. MS HARTLE Mr Joe Mamasela in his submissions in terms of Sections 29, said that he drove the vehicle away from the airport. MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Did he see the vehicle at all? Did he get close to it? MR NIEUWOUDT I drove the vehicle. MS HARTLE Did Mamasela get close to the vehicle? MR NIEUWOUDT He drove it from where Mr Hashe had parked it to the point - the path where we met - one of them drove it to there. MS HARTLE He says in his submissions that he drove the vehicle to a place which was a private yard and that point somebody else took over - somebody took the keys from him and he said that in this yard he noticed that the owners had boats on the premises which were being built or repaired. MR NIEUWOUDT I have no knowledge of that. MS HARTLE Did you not go to such a place? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Was a fire kept going the entire day that you were there on the 10th of May? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE You stated that you were coming in and out of the interrogation to get some coffee etc., so I assume that you must have required hot water to make coffee? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE So, was there a fire burning? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. MS HARTLE All the time? MR NIEUWOUDT There must have been. MS HARTLE My instructions are that on the 10th of May 1985, two days after the incident, Mrs Godolozi senior received a phone call where she was working at the West End Clinic and the import of that discussion was that she would never see her son again and she was also informed that Messrs Fazi, Ngoi and Malgas would by that weekend also be killed and burnt. Do you have knowledge of that incident? MR NIEUWOUDT I find that news, I know nothing about that. MS HARTLE And on the 3rd of June 1985 at approximately 2 a.m. her house was burnt, do you have any knowledge of that? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE Did the security branch have anything to do with that fire? MR NIEUWOUDT I did not and nor do I believe that the security branch was involved. MS HARTLE When the families brought the havious caucus applications for their loved ones to be produced, did you discuss with those involved in the operation with you the fact that there was trouble because you had been detected at the airport? MR NIEUWOUDT No. MS HARTLE Did nobody come back to you and discuss the incident with you? MR NIEUWOUDT No. MS HARTLE Now in relation to this incident and the various other ones in which you were involved, did you agree that there would never be any discussion arising from those incidents - that you would remove it from your memory as it were?MR NIEUWOUDT: No. MS HARTLE How did it happen that you managed to keep these operations secret? MR NIEUWOUDT We never discussed it and it was done on a need to know basis. MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT No. ADV DE JAGER MR NIEUWOUDT No, no discussions were held. MS HARTLE Mr Nieuwoudt, there was always a distinct possibility that in operations of this nature somebody might spill the beans, I want to know how it is that you managed to stop that from happening? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE MR NIEUWOUDT He could have done it but it did not happen and no pressure was placed on him. MS HARTLE Was there any pressure brought to bear on you Mr Nieuwoudt? MR NIEUWOUDT No. MS HARTLE Is this something you decided within yourself - there were no constraints placed on you, you decided within yourself that you were not going to ever mention the incident again? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER If you had spoken about it you would have been accused of murder? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER Is that the reason why you never spoke of it because you were scared you would be found out? MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE At the time that the three activists were shot, why was only one firearm used? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV SANDI Mr Nieuwoudt, a moment ago you made a statement that "As far as I was concerned, we were fighting a war" Would you like to explain that in relation to the three deceased? MR NIEUWOUDT After the meeting of Langa on the 21st of March, Mr Kinikini was the first city councillor who did not want to resign and who was killed by means of the necklace method and the three deceased played a big role during the intimidation and organisation of the execution of the unrest - that in brief. CHAIRPERSON You have just asked him about why one firearm was used. MS HARTLE That is correct. MR NIEUWOUDT MS HARTLE In the Mthimkhulu matter - perhaps the report might have been incorrect in the press, but I believe that there was a suggestion that your decided virtually on the spur of the moment to use the medication that had been prescribed for yourself which you then administered to those activists to cause them to sleep. MR NIEUWOUDT No, General van Rensburg told me before we left that I had to take some sleeping substances along and I had some in my possession that I used during my studies - it was prescribed. MS HARTLE Is it your belief Mr Nieuwoudt that the elimination of the three did in fact - as you suggest in your motivation "Contributed to a large decrease in unrest" MR NIEUWOUDT According to my observation on the ground at that stage it really had an effect with regard to Pebco. MS HARTLE And how was it different because I referred yesterday to the Minutes of the GOSS meeting on the 7th of June 1985 where there was a suggestion that perhaps violence was on the increase? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, it is correct, that meeting was for the whole of the Eastern Cape and if I refer to a decrease in Port Elizabeth with regard to the unrest that is what I referred to - that is besides the feud between AZAPO and Pebco. MS HARTLE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS HARTLE CHAIRPERSON Mr Brink? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nieuwoudt, I refer to page 99 of your application and specifically paragraph 5, there you refer to certain Annexures - that is number 3 that is on page 167, Annexure 4 on page 175 and Annexure 9 on page 208. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BRINK Now, these Annexures are copies of Seshaba that was published after the death of the Pebco 3. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct, could I just explain? The publications are published quarterly and events that occurred in the past they then give an update and it is later published. MR BRINK Now, this then goes for the Annexures that you refer to in paragraph 6 of the application? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, that is true. MR BRINK MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. MR BRINK MR NIEUWOUDT MR BRINK MR NIEUWOUDT With regard to the Eastern Cape, that is the case but in Port Elizabeth their was a decrease in the activities of Pebco and I observed that there was a measure of a decrease. MR BRINK But there was a so-called State of Emergency declared in June that year? MR NIEUWOUDT But perhaps I can refer to a specific incident - why it flared up again. It was after the funeral of the Goniwe case and then escalated and that is why the month after that on the 21st of July, the State of Emergency was declared again. MR BRINK But the fact remains that the ability or rather the fact that the Pebco 3 had been killed was in no way a solution? MO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK MR NIEUWOUDT If I look at it now, that is the case yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nieuwoudt, you say that throughout you or rather the idea was to mislead Captain Venter and Mr Beeslaar and the Askaris as to the purpose why those people were apprehended. MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you really think that you fooled them into believing that only interrogation is to take place? MR NIEUWOUDT I believe that to be the case. CHAIRPERSON It will be only interrogation without assaulting the people? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Did you think that by firstly abducting these people and then taking them some 380 kilometres or so away to an isolated spot, did you really think that you were successfully fooling Captain Venter into thinking - and/or the Askaris, into thinking that these people are not going to be assaulted at all? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON ADV NYOKA That is correct. Sorry, Mrs Hashe says at that time it was not present, it had been present before but it was cut off. CHAIRPERSON Disconnected? ADV NYOKA Disconnected. CHAIRPERSON ADV NYOKA MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The last page? MR NIEUWOUDT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that this message was conveyed by telephone to Lusaka and secondly how do you know that he was phoning from his house? MR NIEUWOUDT Firstly, we applied to technically monitor his telephone, listening to the conversations and when you make such an application, then you have to give the particulars of the telephone number as well as the address, as well as the activities of the person. CHAIRPERSON You did not tap the telephone of the UDF or Pebco? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Could he not have phoned from either of those offices? MR NIEUWOUDT He could have but then it would have been in a different book, then we would have known from which telephone. CHAIRPERSON No, but here you are reporting the content of the conversation and not the transaction. This is not ...[intervention] MR NIEUWOUDT But that is because I have personal knowledge of this because I had the task - instructed by Mr du Plessis, to take these three people - to lure them to a specific place. CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Sorry, whether or not he had phoned from the offices of Pebco or UDF, the information would have been exactly the same thing because you are recording what he said - what he did. MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, but I had personal knowledge of the fact that he actually phone out, I personally monitored it and that is why I know. And that is why I refer you to this particular paragraph. CHAIRPERSON Did he make any other calls from the offices of Pebco or UDF as far as you can remember? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, he did but that was before this incident. CHAIRPERSON Were some of them of interest to you - to the security branch? MR NIEUWOUDT Yes, beforehand we knew what they planned - when the next meeting would be and also the planning thereof. CHAIRPERSON Are they reflected in here? MR NIEUWOUDT No. Sorry, I can just point you to 84.11.06. CHAIRPERSON What page is that? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON Page 9? MR NIEUWOUDT No, 26. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I have it, I have the relevant page. Which item are you referring to? MR NIEUWOUDT 84.11.06. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR NIEUWOUDT Where Mrs Molly Blackburn was contacted by him and that was from the offices. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that? MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER I see at the bottom there is NLJ and then = and then abbreviation for Blackburn. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER And on the other page, the 3.05.85 discussion TSNL = BT. MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER What does that mean? MR NIEUWOUDT CHAIRPERSON MR NIEUWOUDT ADV DE JAGER ADV DU PLESSIS I can then just say it is from the applicants whom I represent that one Officer Beeslaar would have said that and that Captain Venter at a stage when the black bag or wet bag was put on the head of the person - I think it was Godolozi, that Captain Venter requested that this wet bag should be removed. MR DE JAGER Could you perhaps just help, what is implied by the fact that these people did not know how to do an interrogation? ADV LAMEY ADV DE JAGER ADV LAMEY Mr de Jager, that is my instructions and that will be their testimony. CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Well, I suppose Mr Nyoka ...[indistinct] the point. ADV NYOKA MR BOOYENS NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS ADV LAMEY Mr Chairman, there was just - before Mr Nyoka started with his examination, you asked me about the - my instructions about the parking of the bus before the garage door, my instructions are that the minibus was not parked directly in front of the garage, it was parked at a point more or less between the old farmhouse and the garage. If I may say it in Afrikaans, it was to the side - almost in a corner at an angle from the garage door but not in such a way that they would have had to guard the three Pebco leaders and they also had no instructions to guard them. MR BOOYENS NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Have you finished with your clients? MR BOOYENS Yes, I hope so Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED