amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-11-11 PORT ELIZABETH 9 GERHARDUS CORNELIUS BEESLAAR 3920/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54833&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/pebco5.htm CHAIRPERSON Then it will be Mr du Plessis. ADV DU PLESSIS Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, I beg leave to call Mr Gert Beeslaar and perhaps we can just do a little bit or re-arrangement here if you will just give us the opportunity? CHAIRPERSON Yes. If I said you are excused I think it was a mistake, you can stand down but if you have other requests to make regarding your available and attendance, you can talk to Mr Booyens. EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. Mr Beeslaar, can we start on page 53 of the application and before we start there could you perhaps just tell the Committee, at present you are living in Pretoria? MR BEESLAAR Yes, that is correct Chairperson. ADV DU PLESSIS You are not in the force anymore? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Since when? MR BEESLAAR Since 30.11.1991. ADV DU PLESSIS And your rank was that of Warrant Officer during this incident? MR BEESLAAR Yes, that is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS And you were working at the security branch Northern Transvaal? MR BEESLAAR No, I was working at the security branch at head office. ADV DU PLESSIS For how long did you work there? MR BEESLAAR Since 1971, I worked at head office. Originally I was a clerk and later in a financial capacity. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR Yes, as far as I can remember. ADV DU PLESSIS And both these parties supported the ideology of apartheid? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And you also supported the ideology of apartheid? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And evidence was given by Brigadier Jack Cronje and different applicants that the security police were in reality the military arm of the National Party, would you agree with that? MR BEESLAAR Yes, I do. ADV DU PLESSIS And you also confirm what is given in 7(b)? Do you confirm that? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Then we go to page 54, there you give an exposition - well, let me put it to you, how old are you now? MR BEESLAAR I will be 60 in February. ADV DU PLESSIS You were born in 1938? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And in the second paragraph on page 54 you say that four years ago you stopped drinking, before that you used alcohol? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And that affected your memory? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And paragraph 3 you say, you were also referred to a psychiatrist Doctor Verster and that you are also treated by him? MR BEESLAAR Yes, that is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Beeslaar, in other words is it correct to say that with regard to certain aspects your memory is not 100%? MR BEESLAAR Yes, that is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS With regard to this incident? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR Yes, I do. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS You did the financial administration and then you were also transferred to Section C1? MR BEESLAAR That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS And all you did at Vlakplaas was administrative affairs but periodically you also went out with operational teams? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Why did you do that? MR BEESLAAR That was to gain more experience with regard to the activities, it would help with my administrative work and then also in some instances if the Askaris gave satisfactory evidence, there was a decision made to make of them policemen and then I sometimes went out to do the necessary paper work to attest them to become policemen. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR No. ADV DU PLESSIS Were you ever involved with interrogation? MR BEESLAAR No, I had no training for any interrogation methods, I was purely an administrative person. ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Beeslaar, the next paragraph it gives an exposition of the struggle of the South African Government against the liberation movements, do you confirm the correctness of that paragraph from page 55 up to page 60? MR BEESLAAR Yes, I confirm. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR Yes, I confirm that. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And the instructions, do you confirm that as being correct? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR We were under the instruction of Cronje, we were sent to Eastern Province to assist them with the identification of infiltrators. ADV DU PLESSIS And you were under direct instruction of Captain Venter? MR BEESLAAR I was under direct instruction but we were also under the command of the Divisional Commission of the Eastern Province. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR Yes, I would have carried them out. ADV DU PLESSIS And did you accept that instructions that Captain Venter would have given to you that they would have been authorised from above? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR No. ADV DU PLESSIS And does the same go with regard to any aspects in relation to the Eastern Cape police? MR BEESLAAR No. ADV DU PLESSIS Then we go to page 62, do you do you confirm the paragraph dealing with the deaths of activists? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And also the race basis, do you confirm that? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And then on the next page the paragraphs there, do you confirm that as being correct? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And then on page 64 also? MR BEESLAAR I confirm that. ADV DU PLESSIS And then from page 65, Mr Beeslaar, up to page 73 - that is a general background of political objectives with regard to political actions, is that correct? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS And then on page 73, the last paragraph - further information and evidence, if there is anything that you are going to testify that is not specifically included in your application, would that have been omitted on purpose? MR BEESLAAR No. ADV DU PLESSIS Did you try to give all the information in your application? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Then we go to page 74 and you apply for assault, abduction and also lesser offences and other offences which might come forward from the facts? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON ADV DE JAGER ADV DU PLESSIS Please turn to the next page, 75, could you please start reading the with the 1st paragraph? MR BEESLAAR "I was stationed at Section C1, later C10, I did administrative clerical work and during the period that I worked as an administrative official I also periodically did some field work with the other members of the unit" ADV DU PLESSIS Could you please read the next paragraph? MR BEESLAAR "On the instruction of Colonel Cronje, the commander of Vlakplaas, myself, Captain Venter, Black members of the police force and Askaris including Koole, Radebe, Mogoai, Mamasela and others whom I cannot remember, we were sent to the Eastern Cape and that was at Port Elizabeth" ADV DU PLESSIS Can you recall the size of this contingent? MR BEESLAAR Chairperson, Captain Venter and myself came with a vehicle and then there were three station wagons with Black members. If I can remember correctly we must have been - including the Black people, we were about 20. ADV DU PLESSIS Could you please read the next paragraph? MR BEESLAAR "The division Eastern Cape had great problems with political and political related unrest and other activities and we were then sent inter alias for the identification of returning ANC/PAC terrorists and infiltrators and the Askaris would have been able to identify their former colleagues. We arrived in Port Elizabeth early in the morning and later went to Glen Conner railway station where we stayed over in an old railway house. Captain van Zyl got the house for us and the first few days we continued with normal work, we went on patrol and also tried to identify the possible infiltrators" ADV DE JAGER Mr Beeslaar, you mention the names of Koole, Radebe, Mogoai, Mamasela, did you know a person with the name of Moss? MR BEESLAAR Yes, I did. ADV DE JAGER Who was he? MR BEESLAAR ADV DE JAGER Did he accompany you here? MR BEESLAAR ADV DE JAGER Who was the other person? Can you mention - name the person? MR BEESLAAR ADV DE JAGER Yes. MR BEESLAAR It was Captain Letsatsi. ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Beeslaar, before you continue with the last paragraph on that page, were you specifically sent down to be involved in the case that you are applying now for? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And Vlakplaas different groups or contingents, were they sent out to different places in the country to execute similar tasks? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Could you please read the last paragraph? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And then on page 76? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Can I just stop you there before you continue, were you ever informed by Captain Venter about everything or just concerning that that you needed to know? MR BEESLAAR Yes, only where it had any effect on me. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you continue? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Do I understand you correctly that you were never informed precisely what they were involved with? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And can you remember whether you were ever informed for what reason the Vlakplaas members would have been used in this operation? MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember the Vlakplaas members were used for this operation because of the fact that if some of the local Black members would have been used and then something could have gone askew with this whole operation, then these Black members could have been identified and it would have had a very bad influence or negative effects for them and their families. Because our Black members were unknown, I believe that they were actually used for this operation. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you recall whether anything was told to the Askaris we used in this operation to what period this operation would go? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Please continue. MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Please stop there. What do you recall with regard to Radebe? Was he present? Could it possibly have been someone else? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And this particular minibus, were the windows tinted in a dark colour? MR BEESLAAR Yes, they were. ADV DU PLESSIS And you also heard evidence of Mr Lotz that he went to Glen Connor and he returned with you, is that correct? Can you remember something in that regard? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Why did you travel in two vehicles? MR BEESLAAR We travelled with two vehicles because Captain Venter and myself would have returned and the Black would have continued to where they should have gone and they had to go to protect the people or rather to guard the people should anything happen. ADV DU PLESSIS There was a bit of a disturbance. Is it correct - I just want to make quite sure, was the bus taken along because activists had to be transported? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Please read the next paragraph. MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR No, they were never allowed to visit the security branch office. ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Beeslaar, can you recall whether you were ever informed of the purpose of the operation? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And was there ever - at this stage, was there any suspicion on your side or did you consider it as a possibility that these three activists would be eliminated? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Was it ever conveyed to you? MR BEESLAAR No. ADV DU PLESSIS Please continue to the next page, page 77. Please read the first two sentences: MR BEESLAAR "We parked in a parking area to the right-hand side of the airport building. Inside and outside the building the lights were already switched on" ADV DU PLESSIS Can you remember whether it was dark or whether the sun was shining? MR BEESLAAR It was dark because the lights were on at the airport. ADV DU PLESSIS In which vehicle were you? MR BEESLAAR I was in the Nissan Safari. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you remember who was with you? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And the Askaris in the minibus, where were they? MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember they drove in front of the airport and it makes a turn, - it makes a turn to the right, as far as I can remember at that turn they stopped. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you remember whether there was any radio contact between the security branch vehicles? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS At the airport itself, can you remember if it was busy, were there other people, was it quiet? MR BEESLAAR It was quiet as far as I can remember. ADV DU PLESSIS And can you remember how far you were from the minibus? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Could you precisely see what was going on or could you not see? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS The next paragraph please. MR BEESLAAR "The minibus drove off and we followed up to a previously designated place at the sea" ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Was it light, were there lights? MR BEESLAAR It was dark. ADV DU PLESSIS Do you have any idea of what kind of place it was? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Please continue with the 2nd paragraph, the 2nd sentence. MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Could you see whether they were handcuffed? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And how sure are you with regard to the question of the heads that were covered? MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember - I could have made a mistake, but as far as I can remember their heads were covered. ADV DU PLESSIS Please continue to the next paragraph. MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR I could be wrong that he was there. ADV DU PLESSIS Please read the next paragraph. MR BEESLAAR "Captain Venter and myself returned to Glen Connor while the Black members with the members of the security branch Port Elizabeth went to a place which was at that stage unknown to me, they would have travelled there. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR We had completed our task, mine and Captain Venter and to leave such a large group alone would perhaps give problems and the procedure as far as I know, the Blacks were never left alone for such a long period. ADV DU PLESSIS Would Captain Venter at that stage have visited the security branch office at Cradock? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Can you remember whether you were invited and Captain Venter, whether he was invited to the place where the interrogation would take place - Post Chalmers? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Were you ever requested - Captain Venter and members of Vlakplaas, were they ever requested to be present at the interrogation of the three activists? MR BEESLAAR No. ADV DU PLESSIS Please turn the page to 78, can you just read that paragraph to us please. MR BEESLAAR "Captain Venter and I left to Cradock the next day or the day thereafter. Enquiries were addressed the Branch Commanding Officer of the Security Police about where our members who were together with the security branch Port Elizabeth. A person unknown to me would take us to the place as we did not know the area. The person took us to a place outside Cradock which I heard was an old police station, various members of the security branch were present and as far as I can remember Captain Sakkie van Zyl and Deon Niewoudt were present" ADV DU PLESSIS Let us just stop at that paragraph. When you were taken there, was it just you and Captain Venter in the vehicle who went to the security branch? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And with which vehicle did you travel? MR BEESLAAR With the Nissan Safari. ADV DU PLESSIS How many persons did you take to the police station? MR BEESLAAR As I said, as far as I can recall it was only one person who was unknown to me. ADV DU PLESSIS There was testimony from Captain Venter and it was also testified by the other applicants that a Major Winter was at the security branch, can you recall anything about him? MR BEESLAAR I cannot remember who he was but we did go to the Branch Commanding Officer, it could be Winter. ADV DU PLESSIS And you went to the Branch Commanding Officer of the Security Branch, not of the police station. MR BEESLAAR Correct. ADV DU PLESSIS Let us look at the first sentence of this paragraph where you say "Captain Venter and I went to Cradock the next day or the day thereafter" MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS You also said the same in the statement that you made to the Attorney General? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you please read the next paragraph. MR BEESLAAR "It was already late that afternoon but the sun was still shining and Captain Venter and I spent a few hours at the place and amongst others braaied meat and enjoyed a few drinks. There were three Black men present approximately 5 metres from where we stood and talked, their heads were covered - I believe for purposes of identification" ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS In other words - can I just ask you, if you were to be asked if it was possible that you did not return the next day but you stayed over that evening and returned the day after to Glen Connor, would you say that this could be possible? MR BEESLAAR That same afternoon, that is the afternoon just after the abduction as far as I can recall, we left, we did not stay over another night. ADV DU PLESSIS Would you say that it is possible that Mr van Zyl and Mr Lotz could be correct as well as Mr Niewoudt, that you were there that evening and only returned to Glen Connor the next morning? CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS Yes, all right. CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS Sorry? I beg your pardon? Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I was saying, let us deal with the two aspects separately. ADV DU PLESSIS Yes, all right, fine. CHAIRPERSON First as to his recollection with the regard to whether or not the witness and Captain Venter spent the night of the abduction at whatever place and if so - being the next aspect, when did they leave. ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Beeslaar, let us do it as Judge Ngoepe has requested, let us look at the question as to whether it would be possible that you did not return to Glen Connor after the abduction but that you went directly to Post Chalmers and spent the evening there. MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And if we look at the second aspect, you testified ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER MR BEESLAAR Because the other Black members who had remained behind, we could not have left them or we would not have left them alone under normal circumstances. ADV DE JAGER Earlier you said that it was because your task had been completed that you returned to Glen Connor. MR BEESLAAR ADV DE JAGER According to your testimony you had no task at the airport, what were you supposed to do there? MR BEESLAAR We only one vehicle in which the Whites travelled and I accompanied him to the airport. ADV DU PLESSIS Did you support Captain Venter during the operation - the abduction? MR BEESLAAR No, I did not, I just travelled along with him, I did not take part physically. ADV DU PLESSIS Was Captain Venter in command of the Askaris? MR BEESLAAR At that stage he was present and if he was present then he would have been in command up to the stage where they were no longer under his command it would have been under the command of Captain van Zyl. ADV DU PLESSIS Let us just look at the second aspect as to when you left Post Chalmers. Your testimony is that you arrived there late that afternoon, you had a barbecue, you had some drinks and then left a while after that. Then at the bottom of page 78, the evidence or the testimony of the other applicants was that the morning between 10 and 12 you actually left Post Chalmers, what is your comment based on that? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Let us go over to the other aspect while we are pausing at this paragraph, namely the matter of the barbecue and drinks, can you recall that when you were at Post Chalmers - were you sure that you braaied meat? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS As far as the drinks were concerned? MR BEESLAAR Captain Venter and I each had two beers because we did not know what the real purpose of the operation was. ADV DU PLESSIS So you were not busy working at that stage? MR BEESLAAR We were on duty but we - Captain Venter visited the local branch and Captain van Zyl also went to fetch the Askaris and as far as we were concerned they should have been finished. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you recall whether any other - whether you saw any other members of the Port Elizabeth security branch use alcohol? MR BEESLAAR I cannot recall, it was only Captain Venter and I who had two beers each. ADV DU PLESSIS You say that there were three Black men present approximately 5 metres from where you standing and you say that their heads were covered? MR BEESLAAR It was approximately 5 metres and as far as I can recall their heads were covered. ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Beeslaar, you are still under oath. GERHARDUS CORNELIUS BEESLAAR (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr du Plessis? EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Beeslaar, can we look at page 78 the 3rd paragraph, do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS Do you have any knowledge of assaults that took place on the there activists during the period that they were there at Post Chalmers? Do you have any personal knowledge of any assaults? MR BEESLAAR I have no knowledge. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR No, I have no knowledge of any assaults. ADV DU PLESSIS Were you present during any interrogations? MR BEESLAAR No, we were not involved in any interrogations. ADV DU PLESSIS In the 3rd paragraph you say - starting at the 2nd line "I kicked them against the body, I tried to talk to them, I cannot recall what we spoke about and I kicked some of the people against the body" Is there a mistake in that sentence? MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember I did talk to them or there was something I wanted to ask them. ADV DU PLESSIS "I kicked one of them against the body" Mr Chairman, I just want to draw your attention to that fact. My instructions right from the start were that only one was kicked and the sentence should have read: "I kicked one of the men against the body" You will see later that accords with the previous affidavit Mr Beeslaar attested to. ADV DU PLESSIS Can you just explain to the Committee, did you want to talk to the activists? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS ADV DU PLESSIS Is it a possibility that it was to draw his attention? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Can you remember how hard you kicked him? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS If you have to choose between reasonably medium or hard, what would you say? MR BEESLAAR I would say a medium kick. ADV DU PLESSIS Did you kick him just or the enjoyment thereof? MR BEESLAAR No, I would not have done that. ADV DU PLESSIS And would you kick somebody under such circumstances purely for enjoyment? MR BEESLAAR No. ADV DE JAGER MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Let me just ask you once again, would you kick anybody just because you enjoy doing it? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Do you confirm the last paragraph on page 78? MR BEESLAAR As it stands, yes. ADV DU PLESSIS On page 79, do you confirm the 1st paragraph? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And the 2nd paragraph? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And the 3rd paragraph? MR BEESLAAR Correct. ADV DU PLESSIS And as far as the 4th paragraph is concerned, did you accept when you saw the media reports, that they were the same three persons with whom you were involved? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And the 4th paragraph, do you confirm that? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS The 5th paragraph? MR BEESLAAR Correct. ADV DU PLESSIS The 6th paragraph? MR BEESLAAR Correct. ADV DU PLESSIS And the last paragraph? MR BEESLAAR Correct. ADV DU PLESSIS Did you discuss the event afterwards with Captain Venter? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Page 80, the 1st paragraph, do you confirm the correctness? MR BEESLAAR I do. ADV DU PLESSIS Did you have any suspicions that the watch belonged to any of the men? MR BEESLAAR None. ADV DU PLESSIS The 2nd paragraph, do you confirm that? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS The 3rd paragraph? MR BEESLAAR Correct. ADV DU PLESSIS And then the last paragraph refers to the oath that was handed in at the amnesty hearing of Jack Cronje and the others who applied to amnesty together with him, is that the statement that you made to the Attorney General? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Why should be have this as an exhibit Mr du Plessis, for what purpose is it ...[intervention] ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, I will come to that now. CHAIRPERSON Okay. ADV DU PLESSIS If you look at the document, if you look at Exhibit M - Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon for the informal amendments on this affidavit. There are two aspects that you wanted to correct in this affidavit? MR BEESLAAR Just repeat the question please. ADV DU PLESSIS "The bakkie came past the airport building and there was seen to be movement" "That the bakkie drove past the airport building" Is that correct? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS There you said "I spoke to the detainees myself and tried to attract his attention with my foot by touching him" And your testimony now before the Committee is that: "You kicked him" So, that "lightly touched" is not quite correct. MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS The rest of the oath/affirmation/affidavit, do you say that this is true? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Did you gain any personal benefit from this involvement in this operation? MR BEESLAAR None. ADV DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER Just for the sake of the record and other people who might not know that you refer in paragraph 2 to Advocate de Jager. MR BEESLAAR ADV DE JAGER MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR The only time that they contacted me after this was a week or two afterwards. Some of the investigative officers came to me, they were very rude and the one person just threw this statement on my coffee table in my lounge and said they were not interested in it at all. ADV DU PLESSIS Did they give you any indication as to why? MR BEESLAAR I cannot remember that they did but that is what happened. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR The period that I went out on field work with the security branch, we would not have left them any longer and I can just give you an example as to why we would not leave them without supervision for a long time. One evening at Glen Connor - approximately 100 to 200 metres from where we slept, there were people and we had supper there that evening and we also visited for a while. When we returned to our house or place where we slept - some of the Blacks slept in a garage outside the house, others slept inside the house with us, and then we heard that there was something going on in the garage. When we opened the garage Captain Venter and I, approximately five or six were sleeping there and on the camp bed of each, each one was busy with a Black woman and they were definitely not having a normal party and that is the reason why we could not leave the people without supervision for such a long time. ADV DU PLESSIS In other words you would not have been able to leave alone for two nights or three days? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens? MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Beeslaar, as you started your statement and all the qualifications that you have, it is true that many of the things that you are saying here to a large extent are based on reconstruction and on logic. You say things because is what you thought you would have done, not so? MR BEESLAAR That is true as I can remember. MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS So there was no reason for them to spend a long time at Cradock, they had to arrest the people, accompany them and return. MR BEESLAAR That was correct until we joined them. MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR Yes. MR BOOYENS So logically, did you tell them that you wanted to arrive only on the next day as you can recall or do you just think it was because you had to go and look after the Askaris? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS You could even have gone to Cradock on another occasion and not on this occasion? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember, it was Mamasela, Koole and Mogoai. MR BOOYENS I thought the fourth member was Radebe. MR BEESLAAR It could possibly have been Captain or Lieutenant Moss at that stage. MR BOOYENS Because you say that you were told to get your best Askaris and Moss must have been one of the best because he became a Captain later. MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS So, it could possibly have been Moss. MR BEESLAAR Yes. MR BOOYENS We are talking of a long time ago and I do not want any details but can I make the statement that you were involved in quite a few Vlakplaas operations? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS If say: "involved", I did not mean involvement in the negative sense but involvement in the fact that you were present in things where nothing improper happened. MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS And this was also one of the operations that as far as you could see then, nothing improper went on. MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS So you had no reason to recall this incident specifically? MR BEESLAAR CHAIRPERSON But the abduction of people, was it a common practice? MR BEESLAAR CHAIRPERSON We must just be careful because you have just said that nothing improper happened on that day. MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS Just for purposes of clarification - I possibly understood you incorrectly, did you at that stage - in other words at the airport, already know that it was to be an abduction or did you only find out afterwards? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS The purpose of the presence of the Askaris, they had to intercept the people so that they could not be identified - the people who were to take them away? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS Furthermore as far as the Askaris are concerned, at that stage they had no background information regarding the Port Elizabeth situation, is that correct? MR BEESLAAR Yes. MR BOOYENS So in order to give real input with regard to interrogation would have been difficult for them? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS Yes, I just put it mildly. MR BEESLAAR So, apart from the fact that they had to look after the people, transport them and intercept at the airport, they had no real function? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS That is also why - according to your recollection, that you left the next day? According to the other applicants you left the previous evening and that is why the Askaris were withdrawn because they had no real further purpose? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR Not as far as my knowledge goes, where I was concerned this was this only case that I can remember, I cannot recall any other case where this was done. MR BOOYENS You will remember that the evidence or the testimony of the other people was that their heads were not covered, can it be possible that you are confusing this with another case where the heads were covered? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS I understand that completely. CHAIRPERSON MR BEESLAAR CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS Yes. CHAIRPERSON He said so. MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS I take your point Mr Chairman. MR BEESLAAR It could be, I had very little to do with operations, I was not up to date as to how they carried out the operations. MR BOOYENS Do you recall if any of the other members - other than the four Askaris, were in the Kombi - namely the three deceased? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS You cannot recall that you met a central point and that the bakkie was brought there by one of the Askaris? MR BEESLAAR No, I cannot recall that. ADV DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR Directly - what happened after the path that we went to after the airport, I have no knowledge of that. MR BOOYENS It is possible that you slept at Post Chalmers one evening, is that what you say? MR BEESLAAR There is a possibility, I cannot remember but it could be. MR BOOYENS Let us see what you would expect to remember. I think that one can summarise it by saying that based on the evidence of the last two applicants, there was a case where a large group - perhaps even six people, kicked and hit the people during interrogation and without recalling any details if such assaults took place would you have remembered it? MR BEESLAAR I would have remembered it if it had happened in my presence. MR BOOYENS Mr Mamasela ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS No, I asked him whether he could have slept one night at Post Chalmers, perhaps I should just qualify that because on the one version he would have slept at Post Chalmers because they came that night and they left the next morning. CHAIRPERSON You are asking with regard to this particular incident? MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON MR BOOYENS And during the day while you were there, if any assaults took place in the way which I described to you, you would surely have remembered that? MR BEESLAAR Yes, I would. MR BOOYENS And then you would have mentioned it? MR BEESLAAR Yes, I would. MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR That was correct yes, we had to come back with them. MR BOOYENS So, did you and the Askaris leave together? MR BEESLAAR As far as I can recall, yes, I cannot see any reason why they would have remained behind any longer. MR BOOYENS And if we talk about the Askaris, you say that Mamasela was definitely included in this group? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS Mamasela makes allegations about people - in the period that they were there, who were hit or killed - beaten to death with iron pipes as a result of the assaults that took place. If something like that had happened would you remember? MR BEESLAAR I would most certainly have remembered. MR BOOYENS When you left were the deceased still alive? And you saw no signs of any serious assaults? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS Was there no-one who seemed to have been assaulted very badly with an iron pipe? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS If you had been there, would you have participated in the interrogation yourself or would you have any interest in it? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS The Askaris who were with you at times, their primary task was the identification of exiles, is that correct? MR BEESLAAR Yes. MR BOOYENS They were not trained policemen? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR Yes. MR BOOYENS MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember it was very remote, I saw no other houses and it was the first time that I was in that vicinity, it looked particularly remote. MR BOOYENS And it is merely based on your observation, so if a person had screamed there would have been no necessity to keep him quiet as Mamasela alleges? MR BEESLAAR MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Mr Nolte? MR NOLTE Mr Chairman, Mr Booyens is appearing on behalf of my client and therefore the questions will be directed by Mr Booyens if that pleases you. CHAIRPERSON Did you cross-examine on behalf of ...[intervention] MR BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON No. Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Beeslaar, are you sure you have testified - and a lot of reference is made to your problems with your memory, uncertainties and so forth, you have also tried to convey your problems with your memory to the Committee. Could you perhaps remember that three members of Vlakplaas would go to the airport? MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember ...[intervention] ADV LAMEY I just want to rephrase it, can you remember for a fact that three members of Vlakplaas would go to the airport? MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember three went along. ADV LAMEY Are you unsure about this? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY In this statement you refer to Peggy Radebe. MR BEESLAAR That is correct. ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR Chairperson as I mentioned, there are so many possibilities and it is possible. ADV LAMEY You mention Radebe in your statement, you had to get hold of this name Radebe somewhere. MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY Did you suspect that? MR BEESLAAR Yes, that is how I can recall it. ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR That is possible. ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY As it pleases you. MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS ADV LAMEY Can I put it to you in this way, why do you concede when Mr Booyens questioned you when he told you about Niewoudt that he said it could have been Moss and that you said that? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY Are you sure ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER ADV LAMEY As it pleases you. MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR I have that. ADV LAMEY You concede it could have been the second day after that? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY If I understand you evidence correctly, you testified that you would just have gone to Cradock or to Post Chalmers where Captain van Zyl was. MR BEESLAAR That is correct. ADV LAMEY ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR "Captain Venter and myself went the next day or the day after to Cradock" Do you concede that it could have been the second day after that that you could have gone to Cradock. MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY "It was already late in the afternoon but the sun was still shining, Captain Venter and myself remained there for a few house and we also braaied some meant and also enjoyed a few drinks" That particular aspect, why do you put it so positive in your statement without being unsure about it? MR BEESLAAR Yes, that is the case but I could be wrong with regard to the time. ADV LAMEY If you say you could be wrong with regard to the time? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY If we then have a look at page 78, the last paragraph you stated quite pertinently that "Later in the evening at approximately 21H00 in the afternoon Captain Venter and myself returned to Glen Connor" MR BEESLAAR As I have told you there may be a problem with the time - an error. CHAIRPERSON What page is that? ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, at the bottom of page 78. Mr Beeslaar, I want to put it to you that the impression - my impression is that you make certain allowances in favour of the other applicants so that your application or version actually fits theirs. MR BEESLAAR No, that is not true. ADV LAMEY Can I ask you, the two applicants whom I represent say that late in the afternoon of the next day - the day following the abduction, late that afternoon and that evening there was a braai, what would be your answer? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY You also relied in your testimony on what would be logical and probable, you also testified that Captain Venter and yourself were at Glen Connor before you went to the airport and that you also followed the Askaris in the minibus, or the Askaris followed you. MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV LAMEY Could it be the other way around, that the Askaris were told to depart to the designated place in Port Elizabeth and that you would later get them there? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY Would you agree that it is - under these circumstance, not logical that Mr Lotz would have accompanied them or would have fetched them at Glen Connor as he testified and would have driven with them to Port Elizabeth, because you and Captain Venter were there? ADV DU PLESSIS ADV DE JAGER ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON What Mr Lamey is putting to the witness, is he not simply saying to the witness that it is probable or improbable that such and such a thing can happen? Is he not just putting a probability to the witness Mr du Plessis. ADV DU PLESSIS If he puts it like that Mr Chairman, then ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS Yes, if he puts it like that. ADV LAMEY Do I have to repeat the question or did you hear the question? MR BEESLAAR Please repeat it. ADV LAMEY Would it not have been illogical because of the fact that you and Captain Venter were at Glen Connor and improbable that Mr Lotz would have arrived there to fetch the Askaris and to take them to Port Elizabeth? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY ADV LAMEY The questions was, is it not illogical and improbable - keeping in mind that you and Captain Venter were at Glen Connor, that Mr Lotz would have arrived there and fetched the Askaris given the fact that you would also have gone to Port Elizabeth? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY As it pleases you Mr Chairman. Can you recall - and this was my instruction from Koole, that they daily received instructions - him as permanent member of Vlakplaas, from Captain Venter while you were there in Port Elizabeth and that there was also a specifically designated point where the other Askaris had these meetings on a daily basis? MR BEESLAAR ADV DE JAGER What he put to you is that Warrant Officer says that you received instructions daily from Venter that you had to gather a specific place. MR BEESLAAR That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Was everyday at the same place or at different places? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY Can you remember that one of these pre-arranged places was a place not far from the security branch office close to a railway station? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY Mr Beeslaar, are you sure and convinced that the only purpose of the involvement of the Askaris was the abduction? MR BEESLAAR As far as I know that was the only purpose and that was to assist with intercepting the people and then also transporting the people and perhaps to help with guarding them when we arrived at Post Chalmers. ADV LAMEY You say: "and perhaps guarding them", are you speculating or are you sure? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY If Captain Venter says - as you had testified at his amnesty hearing and I refer to page 190 of Exhibit H "That the purpose of the operation was to interrogate them, gain information, remove them out of the area and neutralise their involvement" As I understand his testimony one of the main purposes that he had knowledge of was interrogation. MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY In the light of your being unsure about many aspects, why are you prepared to make this statement that if there had been an assault and if you had been present at that stage at Post Chalmers, then you would have remembered it? MR BEESLAAR Could you please repeat the question? ADV LAMEY Given the fact of your being unsure with regard to different facts in your version and in the light of the problems you have with your memory, on what basis are you still prepared to testify here that if there had been assaults at Post Chalmers and should you have been present there, you would have remembered it? MR BEESLAAR Assaults, had it been violent I would have remembered it but as far as I can remember there were no violent assaults or no assaults except in the case where I was involved. ADV LAMEY You make a distinction between violent assaults and assaults, is there a distinction for you? MR BEESLAAR I would say any assaults. ADV LAMEY You would have remembered it - any assaults? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV LAMEY And if the two applicants whom I represent say that there were assaults? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR If there had been assaults and if I had seen the people but as I say I cannot remember that there had been any assaults while we were there. CHAIRPERSON So, as far as the assault is concerned, you are not uncertain? With regard to the assault you are definitely sure that it did not take place, that is the essence of the question. MR BEESLAAR While I was there, there were no assaults. CHAIRPERSON And of that you are sure? MR BEESLAAR Yes, I am very sure. ADV LAMEY Can I just understand it correctly, have you already conceded that you could have gone to Post Chalmers the night of the abduction? MR BEESLAAR Chairperson, ...[intervention] ADV LAMEY I just want to complete my question - and that you also were present the next morning? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR The arrangement made by Captain van Zyl and Venter was - perhaps because he was in command and there was an operation, that is why I believe that he said that Captain Venter and myself - and we only had one vehicle, that is why we went along. ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR I just want to work this out, it was approximately 30 years. ADV LAMEY And in the security police as well? MR BEESLAAR Not all the time Mr Chairperson. ADV LAMEY Could I just ask you, before this incident with Pebco, did you have experience of other interrogations where there were assaults? MR BEESLAAR No, none. ADV LAMEY None? MR BEESLAAR No. ADV LAMEY Not a single instance? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY But at Vlakplaas you also went along where they did field work? MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY Captain Venter says in his evidence that he expected that the normal interrogation methods would be applied, that is violence, assault, intimidation and I refer to page 194 of his evidence, Exhibit H. MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY That is Captain Venter. MR BEESLAAR Yes, Sir? ADV LAMEY And as I understand his testimony it was not abnormal for something like that to happen. MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY I just want to refer you to your own application - I just want to find it. I refer to page 70 of your application "And the purpose of the interrogation was twofold, intimidation, obtaining information" And then you also state: "When the activists are interrogated they are intimidated to stop their activities and also to inform other activists that they will be interrogated" ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Lamey? ADV LAMEY Mr Chairman, I have listened to Mr du Plessis when he led his client but what is - I also understand that it is in general form with regard to lay a basis for all the incidents for which he applies for amnesty but this question is more directed in view of his own evidence and of his own role - of his own evidence with regard to his own usual role. Now, my next question will be: "If that is so, on what basis does he testify personally to this information contained in his amnesty application"? CHAIRPERSON These are general grounds on which you would justify whatever he would be asking amnesty for. I think the problem comes when you - you are trying to say simply because in the general grounds you mention elimination for example, then it means in this case: "You took part in the elimination". ADV LAMEY No, no. CHAIRPERSON That is the point which Mr du Plessis is trying to convey to you. The fact that mention of intimidation is made in the general grounds showing or justifying acts in respect of which he applies for amnesty does not mean that he - in this particular instance, he intimidated anybody. ADV LAMEY No ...[intervention] ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, I also want to come in here. The evidence of Brigadier Cronje - you must remember that Brigadier Cronje was the commanding officer of approximately all the clients that I represent. ADV DE JAGER Mr Chairman, may now also ask leave to come in? MR BEESLAAR That is correct. ADV DE JAGER MR BEESLAAR That is correct. ADV DE JAGER MR BEESLAAR That is correct. ADV LAMEY I just wanted to explain that I understand what Mr du Plessis is saying, this is a general part. ADV DE JAGER ADV LAMEY As it pleases you. MR BEESLAAR We then agreed on a price and I bought the watch from him because as far as I know it was his property. Had I known that this watch belonged to one of those people I would never have taken it or bought it from him. ADV LAMEY I just want to ask you, did you know that Captain Venter and Warrant Officer Koole had been together for quite a while and that they had worked together at the security branch at Zeerust before he went to Vlakplaas and before Captain Venter came to Vlakplaas? MR BEESLAAR That is what Captain Venter told me, that they had come a long way together. In this week he said again that they had come a long way together. ADV LAMEY Is there any reason that you can think of why Warrant Officer Koole or even Mr Mogoai would now want to make up facts about assaults to the extent that he and Captain Venter are also being implicated? MR BEESLAAR I cannot say. ADV LAMEY MR BEESLAAR ADV LAMEY Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV NYOKA Thank you Mr Chairman. problem but just try to think, when did you learn that they died? MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA 1995? MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA And you did not go to Mr Venter and say: "But did those chaps die"? after learning about that - your senior at the time or Mr Cronje. MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA Then why did you leave them for about six hours because - I will you allowance, from where you were to Cradock is about two hours and then back would be another two hours giving you a further allowance of two hours at Cradock. Why did you leave them behind because they were unguarded so to speak? MR BEESLAAR They were not unguarded, there was a Black officer with them. We were not planning to stay away for such a long time and that is why we why we left them alone together with a Black officer under his supervision. ADV NYOKA But was that officer not present the previous night? But was that officer not present the previous night? MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA You were asked: "The place was so remote that there would be no need for anyone to be restricted from screaming", not so? - you were asked by Mr Booyens. MR BEESLAAR As far as I could see the place was very remote. ADV NYOKA If that is the case there would be no need for a silencer to be used for a weapon if there was no need to restrain a person from screaming, do you agree with me? MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR That is possible. ADV DU PLESSIS ADV NYOKA Mr Chairman, the question was asked ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS All right Mr Chairman. ADV NYOKA May I continue Mr Chairman? Mr Venter stated that when the car of the three activists disappeared from the airport he thought that they could be killed. As you were with him in the car on your way to Cradock and back, did he not verbalise this thought to you that: "Hey Mr Beeslaar, I think these people are going to be killed"? MR BEESLAAR No, I cannot recall that he said anything to me in that respect - as to what had happened to them or what was going to happen to them or what had happened to the vehicle. ADV NYOKA Were you not curious to find out what had happened to it - to and from Cradock? MR BEESLAAR No, I did not find out or try to find out. ADV NYOKA On the way to Cradock - I understand you were not invited to go there, you went there on your own volition not so? MR BEESLAAR Are you know referring to the next day? ADV NYOKA Precisely. MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR No, I did not know. ADV NYOKA Is it not correct that the Askaris could have been left under the command of Mr Zyl, in other words they could have returned with them? - from that point of view since you did not know what their intention was. MR BEESLAAR Could they have come back with Captain van Zyl? ADV NYOKA Yes. MR BEESLAAR No, as far as we were concerned it was just for the abduction and for the time that they had to guard them until we arrived there and then they left with us, they were not aware of anything further that was to have happened. ADV NYOKA When you left you base you did not take anything with you, you just left on your own? Please answer. MR BEESLAAR Which base are you referring to, the one at Glen Connor or where? ADV NYOKA Yes, precisely - Glen Connor. MR BEESLAAR Whether we took anything with us? ADV NYOKA Yes. MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA Then those two beers you each had, you must have got them at Post Chalmers because you did not take anything with you, not so? MR BEESLAAR We could also have bought the beer at Cradock. ADV NYOKA You did not mention anything about buying beers, you just said you had two beers each on arrival, I assume that you got them there, not so? CHAIRPERSON Your assumption might have been wrong. ADV NYOKA I agree Mr Chairman. Do you recall where you got the beers from? MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember we could have bought beers in Cradock for Captain Venter and I. ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR I did not know whether they might have had their own. I did not know what the circumstances were before we arrived at Post Chalmers. ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR As far as I knew, the operation only consisted of the abduction and that the branch that was to question them. We served no purpose there except that we had to remain there for a few minutes and then we were to return again. ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR No comment. ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR That is what I said, I cannot remember how many there were but there were a few as I recall. ADV NYOKA These several members, did they include the Askaris or just the security branch members proper? Were you including the Askaris in "several members"? MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR That is true but this all happened 12 years ago. I cannot recall how many - what the position was there. ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR That is true. ADV DU PLESSIS ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR Our Blacks were there and I walked to them and I cannot recall exactly what I asked them or why I wanted to talk to them, I cannot recall the circumstances when I went to talk to them. ADV NYOKA If they were sitting down and you were walking towards them, why was there a necessity for you to kick any of them because you were moving towards them? MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR I cannot give the reason as to why I kicked him, I just mentioned it but there must have been a reason. CHAIRPERSON MR BEESLAAR That could possibly have been the case and that he could not have identified me at a later stage and said that I had assaulted him. CHAIRPERSON MR BEESLAAR That is possible, yes. ADV NYOKA I put it to you that you kicked them because the atmosphere was that of violence towards them. MR BEESLAAR ADV SANDI Mr Beeslaar, could you not just touch this gentleman with your own hand and indicate that you want to speak with him? MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA You did not tell anyone that you kicked one of them? MR BEESLAAR No, some of our Black people were standing there and they could have seen it had I done it. ADV NYOKA Did you apologise to this person for kicking him? MR BEESLAAR No. ADV NYOKA Why not? It was wrong what you did. MR BEESLAAR I cannot remember because we could not communicate and therefore I left them and I returned, I just stayed there for a while. ADV NYOKA With due respect Mr Beeslaar, you said you tried to talk to one of them, that was communication not so? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV NYOKA Then why do you say that you could not communicate with them? MR BEESLAAR I did not know whether he understood my question, I spoke Afrikaans. ADV NYOKA Can you repeat it? Can you repeat what you said? MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA Whether you understood each other or not that is communication but misunderstood communication, not so? Not so? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR The Askaris remained behind and I went back to the others. ADV NYOKA Answer my question, were you under the influence of liquor? MR BEESLAAR No, I was not under the influence of liquor. ADV NYOKA And who drove the car back to Glen Connor? MR BEESLAAR Our vehicle was driven by either Captain Venter or myself, we could have changed along the way. After we had left we could have taken turns to drive. ADV NYOKA CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyoka, we are finding it difficult to imagine that we will finish this case, we value every minute dearly. ADV NYOKA Okay. Mr Mamasela said that you throttled Mr Hashe with a stick. MR BEESLAAR That is false. ADV NYOKA And that you hit Mr Godolozi with a stick? MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA And Mr Koole said that you and him and Mr Mogoai and Mr Mamasela and Mr Venter interrogated on of the activists, Mr Hashe and that you assaulted him immediately after interrogating him, any comment? MR BEESLAAR No, comment. ADV NYOKA Why were you not curious when Mr Mamasela approached you about this watch the following day soon after the dramatic events of the previous day? ADV DU PLESSIS ADV NYOKA The interpretation that I got that: "The following day Mr Mamasela approached me", this is the interpretation that I got. MR BEESLAAR I will say how I recall it. It must have been a Saturday morning at Glen Connor because our Black members did their washing on a Saturday and it was on such an occasion. It could have been the next Saturday or the Saturday thereafter even but that is how I recall the incident about the watch. ADV NYOKA Why did you not just loan him that R30-00 or R40-00? MR BEESLAAR He did not ask to borrow money, he asked me if I wanted to buy his watch. ADV NYOKA In the statement you said that he had financial difficulties, why did you not lend him the money? MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA My point is, why did you not loan him the money? MR BEESLAAR Perhaps he would not have been able to give it back to me but he offered me the watch and we decided on a price. ADV NYOKA You did not have a watch of your own at that time? MR BEESLAAR I could have had one, I most probably did but in order to assist him I bought it from him. ADV NYOKA Finally on this issue, you said that you threw the watch at a dirt bin on reading the note by Mr Eugene de Kock. Had you thrown the watch before you learnt about this message from Mr de Kock or after you learnt about it? MR BEESLAAR After he showed me the letter which Mamasela was to have written that this watch had belonged to one of the Pebco 3 - I never saw the letter previously nor did I have any knowledge of it, I was totally in the dark until the day the at de Kock showed me this message. ADV NYOKA And at that stage you did not know that they were not alive? Not so? MR BEESLAAR I cannot remember if I ever heard what happened to them thereafter. ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR I cannot comment on this. ADV NYOKA To me it means that you knew that they were dead otherwise you could have measures or means to return to the watch back to Port Elizabeth. MR BEESLAAR Anything is possible, I cannot comment on this. ADV NYOKA ...[inaudible] possibility including the fact that you may have known they were dead, is that one of the possibilities? MR BEESLAAR That can be so, I cannot remember if I ever heard what happened to them because when we left there that day our activities here had been completed. ADV NYOKA I put it to you Mr Beeslaar that you were one of the assailants, one of the three people that were hitting the three Pebco leaders. MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA And if you did not know that the watch was stolen you bona fides believed that it belonged to Mr Mamasela then I find it strange that you would apply for amnesty for robbery for something that you were not aware of. ADV DU PLESSIS ADV NYOKA ADV DU PLESSIS The evidence was: "menseroof - ontvoering" - "abduction". ADV NYOKA ADV DU PLESSIS ADV NYOKA Just in this instance. Mr Beeslaar, you attacked the persons with others and caused their death. MR BEESLAAR Please repeat the question. ADV NYOKA I said that you attacked the persons with other applicants and caused that death that very, very, night. MR BEESLAAR No, that is not correct. ADV NYOKA And finally, I find it strange that you are the second applicant besides Mr Lots, who is suffering from memory loss suddenly, any comment? - who has got a recollection problem in other words. MR BEESLAAR No comment, I have a problem and I am being treated. ADV NYOKA MR BEESLAAR ADV NYOKA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV NYOKA ADV DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, may I just enquire here? My learned friend has put a version to my client and I just wanted to know if that is correct that his instructions are that Mr Beeslaar killed or was involved in the assaults and killing of these three that night. I just want to know if what he put is his version of the facts. ADV NYOKA ADV DU PLESSIS ADV NYOKA CHAIRPERSON Miss Hartle? MISS HARTLE Thank you Mr Chairman. MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE But you would agree that the operation was out of the ordinary? MR BEESLAAR MS HARTLE Was it quite common for the Vlakplaas guys to out of their area in which they operated from? MR BEESLAAR Our base was at Vlakplaas and as the divisions needed teams they made a requisition to head office and then the different teams were then sent to the different divisions for the purpose of identifying people. MISS HARTLE And was that your first visit to the Eastern Cape? MR BEESLAAR Yes, that was my first visit and I could be corrected but when I was a young policeman we came to fetch vehicles for the police here in a convoy and that was the only time that I had been in Port Elizabeth - besides that, that was the only time that I have been here in this particular working condition. MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR I believe that Joe Mamasela mentioned my name in his submission to the Attorney General and that is why my name came to their attention. MISS HARTLE And you were when they approached you - at that stage certainly, that the Pebco 3 were dead or just missing? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE So did you understand that they were investigating charges of murder in relation to the Pebco 3 or just simply their disappearance? MR BEESLAAR As I understood it - as they put it to me, it was for murder. MISS HARTLE Prior to your interview with Advocate de Jager whom you mention in your affidavit which you deposed to before the Attorney General, did you discuss with any of your colleagues that you would be naming them? MR BEESLAAR No, I mentioned it to no-one. MISS HARTLE And prior to bringing this application for amnesty, were you part of the applicants - were you among those applicants who consulted with one another to determine the process that would be followed and how the applications would be brought etc.? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE When were you informed of the Pebco 3 operation which you understood to be an abduction only? MR BEESLAAR It was a few days after we arrived here in the Eastern Cape. MISS HARTLE How long before the abduction were you informed? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE That is correct. MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR That is quite possible. MISS HARTLE Why were you involved if - you understand that this was a clandestine operation, did you know that at the time - that it was going to b a clandestine operation? MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember, yes. MISS HARTLE And then you go on to say that mention was made - you think, in the tea-room where there were several persons present that a comment was made to the effect that persons would come to the airport. MR BEESLAAR That is correct. MISS HARTLE Are you sure that it was in the tea-room. MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE Which tea-room would this be? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE How do you know that the three persons that were abducted from the airport that day were in fact the Pebco 3? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember their heads were covered. MISS HARTLE That was the initial ...[indistinct] in that affidavit. MR BEESLAAR That is correct. MISS HARTLE When was that amended? MR BEESLAAR That was with a previous session in Pretoria and I believe the Chairperson and Advocate de Jager were present when we made the amendments - Judge Mall was the presiding officer. MISS HARTLE And you changed it to read "By kicking him with the aim to just touch - it was just with the aim of kicking him" Just read what is written there above: "lightly touched" MR BEESLAAR And that ends there full stop. MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR Please repeat the question. MISS HARTLE The amendment to this affidavit, was it made at the same time that you deposed to this affidavit, in other words on the 24th of May 1996? MR BEESLAAR No, it was after that. The Attorney General sent this back to me and then at a later stage in Pretoria with one of the sessions, we changed it. MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR I cannot comment on that. MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE Why did you first say that you just did it to get his attention? MR BEESLAAR ADV DE JAGER MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE I get the impression Mr Beeslaar - from your evidence in chief today, that you wanted to revert to the earlier position and that you wanted to persuade this Committee that you did indeed kick one of the detainees as you called them, to get his attention rather than - as my learned friend put it to you, that you were involved in an assault - that there was a climate of violence there. MR BEESLAAR At the stage that we were there, there was no climate of violence or anything of that nature. MISS HARTLE In you affidavit to the Attorney General you say that you kicked him, was it your intention - when you made that affidavit, to say that: "I assaulted one of the victims" - in the true sense of the word? In other words, that you had no excuse that you used force for no reason whatsoever. MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR As far as I can remember I kicked him to draw his attention, I did not kick him for the other reason. MISS HARTLE ADV DU PLESSIS MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR That is correct. MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR Yes, it is assault. MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR ADV SANDI Sorry, can I interpose for a minute Miss Hartle before you go to the next point? Mr Beeslaar, just on assault, what political objective were you trying to achieve when you kicked Mr Hashe? MR BEESLAAR Because they were activists and I therefore kicked him and there was also political motivation why I had to then apply for amnesty for this particular assault. MISS HARTLE What was your purpose in going to Cradock at all after the abduction? MR BEESLAAR ADV DE JAGER Can I interrupt for a moment? MR BEESLAAR Not as far as I can remember, as far as I can remember it was early in the week. ADV DE JAGER I can remember that it was on a Friday evening and I would like to know whether it was. MR BEESLAAR ADV DE JAGER Can any of the other colleagues help me as to whether it was on a Friday night? ADV DU PLESSIS My information is that it was on a Wednesday evening. ADV DE JAGER But they went - they were lured to the airport on a Friday but I could be wrong, thank you. MISS HARTLE Did the Askaris go back with you to Glen Connor after your visit? MR BEESLAAR Yes, they left with us to Glen Connor. MISS HARTLE In the Attorney General Affidavit - if I can call it that, you state as follows and that would be on page 3 in the first paragraph "I suspect that our Black members followed us" This is after you said: MR BEESLAAR I just want to have a look at my statement. At the bottom of page 78 of my application - the last sentence, I say MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE Why do you say that you think or rather you suspect that for identification purposes, the heads of the deceased were covered? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE Mr Beeslaar, certainly they were wearing clothes when you saw them? MR BEESLAAR They did have clothes on. MISS HARTLE And if they had injuries you may not have noticed them ...[indistinct] sight? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE But they may well have been? MR BEESLAAR As far as I could see, no. MISS HARTLE You go further and you say "According to me they were in good health" How did you ascertain that? MR BEESLAAR Excuse me? MISS HARTLE You go further and you say "They were in good health" "The detainees were alive and according to me they were in good health" How did you ascertain that? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR As I say, according to me they were in good health. MISS HARTLE What was it that Colonel de Kock showed you that persuaded you to get rid of the watch which you had received or purchased from Mamasela? MR BEESLAAR He showed me a letter that this watch that Mamasela had sold to me belonged to one of these people. MISS HARTLE Who wrote the letter? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE Are you sure it was a letter and not perhaps a newspaper report? MR BEESLAAR No, it was a written note. MISS HARTLE What was your purpose in wanting to strike up a conversation with the three persons who you found there at Cradock? MR BEESLAAR I mentioned that I cannot remember what the reason was why I wanted to talk to them and what we talked about. MISS HARTLE So why even mention it then? MR BEESLAAR I cannot comment on that. MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR No, not at all. MISS HARTLE Was there a reason why you did not follow the crowd who were at the airport directly to Post Chalmers? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE Could the Askaris not have found their own way back? Why was it necessary for you to go to Cradock at all then? MR BEESLAAR As I have said previously, Captain Venter visited the different branches because he was an officer in head office and that is why we went there. MISS HARTLE This was supposed to have been a clandestine operation - you understood it at the time to be a clandestine operation although at that stage you understood it to be limited to the abduction and as I assume, an interrogation. MR BEESLAAR As far as we knew it was only for the abduction and then also the interrogation - that we would not have been involved. MISS HARTLE Did you understand it to be a clandestine operation? MR BEESLAAR Yes, I realised that. MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE Did somebody accompany you to Post Chalmers - somebody from the Cradock Police Station? MR BEESLAAR Someone from the security branch - an unknown member, accompanied us to Post Chalmers. MISS HARTLE And did he enter in at Post Chalmers, did he enter into the building? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE In the Attorney General Affidavit you say "I suspect that Deon Niewoudt and Nick van Rensburg were also present" MR BEESLAAR On page? MISS HARTLE That would be on the second page in paragraph seven. MR BEESLAAR Could you please repeat the question? MISS HARTLE "I suspect that Deon Niewoudt and Nick van Rensburg were also present" MR BEESLAAR I could be wrong with his presence. MISS HARTLE Why did mention his name at all? MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE: Why do you remember his name specifically? MR BEESLAAR Later at head office he was there and that is how I remember his name and he was also from the Eastern Province. MISS HARTLE But you know him that well? MR BEESLAAR At that stage, no. MISS HARTLE I just find it surprising that you should mention his name in both affidavits, as being one of the persons who were present. MR BEESLAAR MISS HARTLE MR BEESLAAR Afterwards I reconstructed it myself that he could not have been there. MISS HARTLE CHAIRPERSON Well it has, he has said so, so many times that he may be mistaken. MISS HARTLE Are there any of the applicants - was there anybody present there - either at the airport or at Post Chalmers, who are not applicants before this Commission for amnesty. MR BEESLAAR As far as can remember, everyone who is mentioned here and who is applying were present. ADV DU PLESSIS MISS HARTLE In conclusion Mr Beeslaar, I put it you that you were involved in the interrogation and that you partook of the violent assault. MR BEESLAAR No comment, because I did not participate. MISS HARTLE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS HARTLE CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis? ADV DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR BRINK Mr Beeslaar, can you just remind me, when were you first told that that these three people who were taken from the airport to Post Chalmers, were activists? When did you first gleam that information? MR BEESLAAR I cannot recall specifically when I heard this for the first time. MR BRINK Okay. Are you able to tell me this, was it before or after you had visited Post Chalmers? MR BEESLAAR I think it was before - if I remember correctly, that the call they received was that these three activists were to come to the airport. MR BRINK MR BEESLAAR MR BRINK Yes, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis? RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Beeslaar, can I link up with the last question. You cannot recall exactly what you wanted to discuss with this specific activist? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And is it possible that you wanted to discuss something with him regarding his political activities? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And the operation - even though you did not know what the ultimate objective was, but the operation had not been completed at that stage, is that correct? MR BEESLAAR Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS So you were present at the operation - at an operation of the Eastern Cape security branch at that stage? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And the person whom you wanted to speak to was an activist? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And you were part of the security police who were fighting the activities of the activists or combating these activities? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And you action throughout - with regard to this operation regarding the abduction, did it have any other purpose other than a political purpose in your eyes? MR BEESLAAR No, it was merely political. ADV DU PLESSIS Were your actions aimed at combating the liberation movements? MR BEESLAAR Correct. ADV DU PLESSIS In other words the kick that you gave the activist, can one say that in the broader context, that it is something that took place in the broader context of the struggle against the liberation movements? MR BEESLAAR That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS If the activists were seriously assaulted one would have expected that they would be bleeding. MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS Did you see any blood on their clothes? MR BEESLAAR None. ADV DU PLESSIS Did you see any scratches or any other marks on their clothes which indicated an assault? MR BEESLAAR No. CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS Well, Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS Well, Mr Chairman, I will obviously argue. CHAIRPERSON ADV DU PLESSIS Yes, I know Mr Chairman, I know. The purpose of the question was to ascertain if he saw any blood or not and I will argue that it would have been probable if he was subjected to the assaults that the Askaris and Joe Mamasela testify about - and we can look at those allegations, that there must have been blood. CHAIRPERSON MR BEESLAAR That is most probably possible that they could have been assaulted but as far as I could see they had not been assaulted but it is possible. ADV DU PLESSIS Lastly Mr Beeslaar, if you had been involved in any assaults, is there any reason why you would not have stated it in your affidavit to the Attorney General in May 1996 - except for the kick? MR BEESLAAR ADV DU PLESSIS And if you were involved in any other further assaults apart from the kick that you testified to, is there any reason why you would not have included this in your amnesty application? MR BEESLAAR I would have included it if I had been involved in any assaults. ADV DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have not further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Beeslaar, it seems to me that there are a lot of things you are not sure of and you cannot remember around this incident. MR BEESLAAR CHAIRPERSON MR BEESLAAR CHAIRPERSON MR BEESLAAR: As I recall, we went back to Glen Connor, Captain Venter and I because we were not required any further. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Beeslaar, did you ever sleep at Post Chalmers? MR BEESLAAR: No. CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure? MR BEESLAAR: As far as I can remember, we did not sleep there. MR BEESLAAR: I never slept or spent an evening at Post Chalmers. CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure of that because if you sure of that then you could not have slept at Post Chalmers that evening. MR BEESLAAR: No, I am sure we never slept there. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we are moving in circles. Yes, thank you very much. ADV DE JAGER: I just want to ask you something regarding the watch. Why did you buy the watch if you could have taken it yourself? ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I ask one question in that regard? When you bought the watch, did you know where the watch came from? MR BEESLAAR: No. ADV SANDI: Mr Beeslaar, when you bought the watch, what were you intending to do with it? I suppose you had your own watch? MR BEESLAAR: I don't know whether it was an old watch at that stage, I bought this one and I wore it for a short while. CHAIRPERSON: I don't think the audience is particularly cooperative this afternoon. Please do not drive us to the point where we will hold this hearing in my office. We will adjourn until tomorrow at half past eight. COMMISSION ADJOURNS