amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-11-13 PORT ELIZABETH 11 JOHANNES KOOLE 3748/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54835&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pe/pebco7.htm CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman, I call Mr Koole. CHAIRPERSON Before you do that - Mr Brits, this statement around which there was some argument, we have not taken it as an exhibit. ADV BRITS CHAIRPERSON No. ADV BRITS Or the statement of Mr Koole? Koole was my ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV BRITS It seems that yesterday there was still some dispute over the status of the document. CHAIRPERSON That is correct. ADV BRITS CHAIRPERSON ADV BRITS CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV LAMEY ADV DE JAGER ADV LAMEY Which document Mr ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER The signed statement of the previous witness. ADV LAMEY ADV DE JAGER ADV LAMEY ADV DE JAGER ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Call Mr Koole then. MR DU PLESSIS ADV LAMEY ADV BRITS CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Koole, how do you pronounce your surname? JOHANNES KOOLE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thanks. ADV LAMEY That has been an omission on my part and I have drafted an addendum which I have already handed copies to the other legal representatives and I beg leave to hand up copies to the Committee, I have paginated it page 269 and I will give the original to the evidence leader. CHAIRPERSON Just give us your full names Mr Koole? MR KOOLE Johannes Koole. ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Yes. EXAMINATION BY ADV LAMEY Mr Koole, can you just look at page 254, you also have a copy in front of you of the documents marked in the bundle, is that correct? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV LAMEY The document from page 254, 255, 256 and 257 and 258, 259 260, 261, 262 and 263, 264, 265, 266, 267 and 268 and also the addendum on page 269, do you confirm that that is your supplementary amnesty application and do you also confirm that the signatures which appear on this document are yours and that it has been properly sworn and attested? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY May I take you to page 254, you personal particulars appear on that page such as name, address, date of birth, identity number, place of birth, are all those particulars correct? MR KOOLE They are correct Chairperson. ADV LAMEY Could you please turn the page to page 255? There you say in paragraph 8(a) that you were in the employ of the State and specifically in the South African Police Security Branch, Northern Transvaal, was that at the stage when you left the service? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY From 1984 to 1990, you were at Vlakplaas in Pretoria? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Your force number, is that correct. MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY On the next page 256, you - as far as questions 9, 10 and 11 are concerned, you refer to Annexure A to your amnesty application, is that correct? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY I would just like to focus on certain aspects. You say that in 1984 you were transferred to Vlakplaas and whilst you were attached to the security branch in Thabazimbi you worked with Warrant Officer Roelf Venter. And at some point he was transferred to Vlakplaas but that before his transfer he was in Zeerust for a while where he attained the rank of Captain and he was transferred to Vlakplaas with the same rank of Captain. After arriving at Vlakplaas he contacted you at some point and told you about Vlakplaas and told you also specifically that people were needed to work with the Askaris and do security work, you reacted to this and you accepted a transfer to Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Were you in Thabazimbi? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY And he was in Zeerust. MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY And you also received police training and you also say that you did courses at the security branch and the main task of the security police was the application of the Internal Stability Act and that you were taught by instructors and that you also accepted it that the ANC and similar liberation movements such as the PAC were behind the organised acts of terror and violence which threatened the security of the people in this country as well as the Government, is that correct? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON Sorry, can I just step in here. On the next page in 1.3 you are telling us that during the course of your work you were decorated and you received some medals, is that correct? - for the work you were doing, is that right? - the next page 1.3. MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON In 1.4 you told us that you did border duty alongside Botswana and also in Rhodesia, is that correct? MR KOOLE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And in 1.5 you tell us that you always did your work as best as you could in the work that you were doing and then your work was to stamp terrorism or to fight terrorism, is that correct? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON You can proceed on page 261 Mr Lamey. ADV LAMEY Thank you Chairperson. MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY May I ask you, what would have been the purpose to Port Elizabeth? You were asked to go there, what would have been the reason for that? MR KOOLE We were not given the reason for us to go to Port Elizabeth. ADV LAMEY Were you simply instructed to go there? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Did you assume that you would be doing your normal security tasks and functions in Port Elizabeth which then included the detection and identification of specific terrorist and insurgents? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY And you also say on page 262 that during your stay in Port Elizabeth you stayed at Glen Connor - at the railway station at Glen Connor, which is between Utenhage and Jansenville. MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY You also say that whilst you were working there you were asked not to go into the Black townships because there was a lot of unrest and violence at the time and they were afraid that you would be attacked and that you would return fire and that would cause grave problems and that you should only do patrols in the White areas, is that correct? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What was this message? MR KOOLE The message was that all the people from Vlakplaas, all that were staying at Glen Connor must go back to Glen Connor and he will find us there after a few minutes to tell us what to do next. ADV LAMEY Did you do that? MR KOOLE Yes, Sir. ADV LAMEY When you were at Glen Connor, what happened further? MR KOOLE After a while Mr Venter and Mr Beeslaar appeared and they called me, Mr Mogoai and Mr Mamasela, they called us aside. ADV LAMEY Were any instructions given then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Did you also drive the bus? Were you also one of the drivers of the bus? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON I see. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE The Kombi that I was using was a Datsun E20, Mr Peggy Radebe was driving a Toyota with dark windows. ADV LAMEY What did you do thereafter? - after you had received the instructions from Captain Venter to pack in some clothes. MR KOOLE Sir, the three of us left as we were told, we went to the place where we were directed to - that is in Port Elizabeth. ADV LAMEY What place was that? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY If you say: "We left", who was it that left? MR KOOLE Chairperson, it was myself, Mr Mamasela and Mr Mogoai - we were three. ADV LAMEY Who drove the minibus? MR KOOLE I was the driver. ADV LAMEY You heard evidence from Mr Lotz, one of the P.E. people, that he said that on this specific day he came to fetch you at Glen Connor and took you to Port Elizabeth, what do you say in this regard? MR KOOLE It is not true Sir. ADV LAMEY Can you perhaps recall what time of the day it was that you left Glen Connor? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened after that? Did you arrive in Port Elizabeth? MR KOOLE When we arrived in Port Elizabeth we went to the spot where we were told to wait. ADV LAMEY Was that the same point or what point was that exactly? MR KOOLE Close to the railway and close to the security police of Port Elizabeth. ADV LAMEY Can you remember more or less at what time you arrived there? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened further on? MR KOOLE We waited for a while and Mr Venter appeared thereafter. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE When he arrived he said we should go and get something to eat and we should come back and assemble at the same spot and he will come to give us further instructions. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE Mr Venter arrived, Mr Niewoudt and Mr Beeslaar, there were two others that I did not know at that time and they came to where we were. ADV LAMEY You are referring to Mr Niewoudt, did you know him? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Please tell us, were you a group leader of the Askaris? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Could you get into the offices of the security branch or did you - were you there during that time when you were in Port Elizabeth? MR KOOLE That is correct Sir, I had access to go to the offices of the security police. ADV LAMEY Can I just ask you - with reference to this point, how long did you stay in Port Elizabeth when you had this instruction from Captain Venter to meet you at this designated point on this specific day? MR KOOLE It was about a week Sir. ADV LAMEY After Captain Venter, Niewoudt and Warrant Officer Beeslaar - and you referred to two other Whites who appeared there, these other two, did you know them? MR KOOLE Sir, I did not know them. ADV DE JAGER Did you get to know them later? ADV LAMEY Sir, I saw them that day and I never saw them again where I could identify them. ADV LAMEY What happened after Venter and Niewoudt and these other people arrived at that point? Was anything further told to you? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Did you do that? MR KOOLE Yes, Sir. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE When we arrived at the airport we parked the car and the other car that we followed also parked. ADV LAMEY Can you remember where you parked? MR KOOLE Sir, I will remember because before getting through the entrance to the airport we stopped and the car that we were following was parking at a dark place. ADV LAMEY Yes, but where did you park? MR KOOLE It was at a parking lot at the front of the airport. ADV LAMEY And what happened after that? MR KOOLE Mr Venter said we should wait there until he gives us another order. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE After a short while Mr Venter came to us with one of the White men I did not know and he gave me an instruction because I was the driver, he said I should go through the entrance just a little while and he pointed where I should park the car. ADV LAMEY You say you went through the entrance, what do you mean by this? What entrance are you referring to? MR KOOLE Sir, there was a door that had a light outside, it was an entrance to the airport and we went to the other side of the entrance not where we were parking. ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Lamey, let me ask him. MR KOOLE When he arrived he said we should move from where we were parking, we should drive a little bit further and he pointed where I should part the car. He said I should drive past the entrance of the airport and that is what I did. CHAIRPERSON How far way from the entrance did you park? MR KOOLE Chairperson, it was not that far, just a few paces from the entrance to the airport, I cannot specifically say how many paces. ADV DE JAGER I think that we can become a bit confused if we refer to the entrance to the airport. Do you know airport? There is a door that you go through, are you referring to that door or are you talking about the gate at the entrance to the airport itself? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened after this? MR KOOLE I did as I was told, myself, Mr Mamasela and Mr Mogoai stayed in the car that we were using. ADV LAMEY What kind of vehicle was this? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE Sir, Mr Venter came again and he said we should open the sliding door and the door should be left open because there are people that will have to get into the Kombi. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE We did as ordered, the sliding door was left open and we remained in the Kombi and he went back to the entrance at the airport. ADV LAMEY ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened while the three of you remained in the bus, could you see anything? MR KOOLE Yes, Sir, while you were watching you could see what was happening. ADV LAMEY What happened? MR KOOLE Mr Venter was walking and he could be seen and the next moment he is not seen together with these men in his company and they were just rotating next to the entrance of the building. And it showed that there was something or someone they were waiting for. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE While still waiting - after a while, I saw three men going towards the entrance - that is towards the direction that Mr Venter and them were moving. ADV LAMEY Yes, and what happened further? MR KOOLE Sir, when these men approached the entrance into the building I saw Mr Venter and the other man approaching them before they could enter the building and Mr Venter said something to them - I do not know what he said, and he pointed to them where the Kombi was parked - our Kombi. And without any problem, these three men and Mr Venter and the other gentleman came towards the Kombi. ADV LAMEY You say that it was Venter, these three men and who else? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Can you remember whether Mr Niewoudt was among one of the others? MR KOOLE Sir, I cannot remember well whether he was among the men who came to the Kombi, I really cannot remember whether he was there. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Before these three men were brought to the bus and when you saw Captain Venter together with the other men whom you cannot specifically describe, did you see what type of clothes they were wearing? MR KOOLE Mr Venter and these White men were wearing lumber jackets. ADV LAMEY Was it a uniform or civilian clothes? MR KOOLE It was just usual clothing Sir. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE One of these three - one of the men started driving the car, he drove for a short distance and he drove off from the tarred road into the gravel road into the bushes. CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE Yes, Sir, two White men were then in the front seats and the other one was the driver, he took over from me at that stage. ADV LAMEY You said that you then went to a little path in the veld after you had left the tarred road, a short way from the airport. MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER Can you just tell us who were all in the Kombi? You were in the Kombi - you told us, because you moved to the back seat, is that correct? INTERPRETER ADV LAMEY Sir, it was myself, Mr Mogoai who was behind me and the three gentleman and Mr Mamasela. ADV LAMEY And who else? MR KOOLE Sir, I think I answered your question, I said two men in the front, myself and Mr Mamasela, Mr Mogoai and the three gentlemen who were put into our car. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE Sir, we stopped and a car came to stop in front of us and just after a few minutes another bakkie came and it also stopped. ADV LAMEY Yes. MR KOOLE Mr Mamasela was called, he went out of the car and Mr Venter talked to him outside. Sir, I saw Mr Niewoudt during that discussion. Mr Mamasela got into the bakkie that was parked, he stayed a few minutes in that bakkie and thereafter he drove off and there was another car following him. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE The driver of the other car came to speak to the driver of our Kombi, then we followed that car. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY At that stage, who was driving the minibus? MR KOOLE It is that man who took over from me at the airport, he was still the driver. ADV LAMEY Can I just ask you this regarding these three people who were in the bus, up to this stage, can you remember if anything had been done to them? MR KOOLE Yes, Sir. ADV LAMEY What was that? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON When was this when they were blindfolded or where - at which stage? MR KOOLE Sir, I cannot tell but it was just after we left where we were stopping, we were driving in this unknown area and they were blindfolded. ADV LAMEY Are you saying that at a stage you stopped after you had been driving around? When you saw lights and then darkness, did you stop at any stage? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE It is where we were waiting when these men were blindfolded and Mr Mamasela came to join us. ADV DE JAGER Were they blindfolded after Mr Mamasela joined you? ADV LAMEY ADV SANDI Did they show any resistance to being blindfolded, was it easy to just blindfold them? MR KOOLE They were not against blindfolding. CHAIRPERSON Were they handcuffed at that stage or not? MR KOOLE They were not yet handcuffed Sir, later on they were handcuffed. The cars - we were travelling in four cars, they were told to sit on the floor in the Kombi and not on he seats anymore. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV LAMEY Was that when you left the point where you had stopped? MR KOOLE That is correct Sir. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE Sir, we followed another car from there, we were still in this unknown area. ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE Sir, it was our Kombi and a car that was driving in front and a car that was driving behind. Just after we stopped another car joined and it parked at the front of the one that was before us. That is when these men were handcuffed and their legs were cuffed and the instruction was that they should not sit on the seats anymore, they should sit on the floor in the Kombi. CHAIRPERSON As I understand you Mr Koole, that was not at the spot where they were blindfolded, it was later on. MR KOOLE They were first blindfolded and then they were handcuffed and the legs were also cuffed. ADV LAMEY Can I just ask you this, the blindfolding and the handcuffing of the hands, the shackling of the feet, did this take place on the same occasion or at which stage did this take place? Were there different stages when the blindfolding took place or the handcuffing? MR KOOLE Sir, they were first blindfolded and they were then cuffed. CHAIRPERSON In other words they were blindfolded and then you drove for some distance, then you stopped and then you saw these four vehicles and so on and so forth and that is the point at which they were handcuffed and their legs were also cuffed? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Do you move further from there? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened then? MR KOOLE As we were driving there was a car in front of us and there was a road block ahead and these policemen were camouflaged. ADV LAMEY Are you now referring to policemen at the roadblock? MR KOOLE Yes, Sir. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE The car that stopped at the roadblock was the one driving in front of us, we only reduced speed. ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE Then we did not stop, we were just let through. ADV LAMEY And then, what happened then? MR KOOLE We drove in an area that I cannot even identify today, we were driving in the dark, driving in the light until we arrived at a place and we turned to the left. The driver of the car in front of us went off, got out of the car and he unlocked the gate that looked at the time as if it was locked. ADV LAMEY And then, what happened? MR KOOLE After opening the gate he left it open, he drove ahead of us and we turned to the left and then we took a turn to the east. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE The driver of the car in front indicated to the driver of the Kombi where to stop and he showed him exactly where to stop and he did just that. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Were candles lit? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE These three men were taken out of the Kombi, they were put on the stoep next to the house that we were close to. ADV DE JAGER You said that they were put down on the stoep, were they carried to there or were they just allowed to sit there? MR KOOLE They walked - it was not a long distance, even though they were cuffed both their legs and their hands, they could walk. ADV LAMEY And what happened after this? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE Myself, Mr Mogoai and Mr Venter were shown the building that was next to us, there was an open door facing the opposite direction. ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE The candles were already burning. One man from Port Elizabeth that I do not know said there were rings on the floor and I saw those rings and on the wall there were also rings, they were built in. Mr Hashe was fastened to the rings on the floor. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE Sir, Mr Venter and this man from Port Elizabeth left myself and Mr Mogoai behind and they went outside, they left us behind with Mr Hashe. ADV LAMEY Yes, and then what happened? MR KOOLE After a while two men from Port Elizabeth came with Mr Venter. ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE Mr Hashe was interrogated about the AK47 rifles. ADV LAMEY And what happened after this, how did Mr Hashe react to this? MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER Could you just tell us - you said, after a while two men came with along with Mr Venter, who were these two men? MR KOOLE I do not know them Sir, I cannot point them here in this house. ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE He was first asked by this man from Port Elizabeth, the man I cannot identify. ADV SANDI What language was this man using as he was talking to Mr Hashe? MR KOOLE He was speaking in English and at times in Xhosa. ADV DE JAGER But you could not identify him, you do not know him? MR KOOLE Sir, I do not know him and I cannot tell who it was. ADV LAMEY What happened after this, was there any further interrogation and what happened? MR KOOLE During the interrogation Mr Niewoudt came and he went on to ask about the guns and he asked him about their relations with ANC, he asked him about Pebco, he asked him about the relationship between themselves and the ANC - what was the arrangement between the two, those are the questions he was asking. ADV LAMEY Who dealt with the interrogation most of the time at this stage? MR KOOLE When the interrogation got turns, Mr Niewoudt was the person who was asking many questions. ADV LAMEY And what happened thereafter? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Was this on Mr Hashe? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Can you remember whether he still had the blindfold on at that stage? MR KOOLE I remember he was still blindfolded, his hands were cuffed, his legs were cuffed. I remember very well when we took him into that house he could not see properly and he needed assistance so that he could walk properly. ADV LAMEY Do you know whether the blindfold was removed at one stage during the interrogation? MR KOOLE There was a stage when the cloth was removed. The cloth was not removed because we wanted to, he requested, he said: "Please remove this cloth from my face" and the cloth was removed. ADV LAMEY In which way was he assaulted then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Did you also participate in the assaults? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Did you use your fists and did you kick him? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Were any objects used, such as a stick or a pipe to assault Mr Hashe? MR KOOLE No, Sir, nothing was used, only fists and kicks. ADV DE JAGER Were sticks or iron pipes used at a later stage or at any time? MR KOOLE I never saw anything that was used to assault these people in my presence. ADV LAMEY What happened after this, after the assaults? MR KOOLE Mr Hashe was left where he was fastened to - that is on the floor, we went outside and another man was brought to the stoep but I do not know his name. ADV LAMEY Can I just ask you, how - can you perhaps remember how long the interrogation together with the assaults on Mr Hashe - in that room with the rings, how long this took before he was left? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON What you are telling us is what happened on the night of your arrival? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Can you perhaps just tell us, at what time you arrived at that farmhouse? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY I interrupted you when you were saying that one of the other people - you were now outside and that one of the other people were fetched or was brought, is that correct? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What did this man do and what happened? MR KOOLE This man was screaming and he was struggling, he was saying they are troubling him and he said he was prepared to die anytime. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE He was assaulted before he could be asked questions, he was kicked and he was beaten with fists. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Lamey? Mr Koole, you are still under oath. JOHANNES KOOLE s.u.o. ADV LAMEY Mr Koole, upon the adjournment we were busy with the other one who was brought and then he struggled and an assault on him was immediately launched, he was kicked and beaten, could you please take it from there? What happened then? MR KOOLE That is so Mr Chairperson, he was struggling, then he was screaming and they began to assault him. ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Could you please proceed. After the assault on him started and he started kicking and screaming, what happened then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened then? MR KOOLE He did not say a thing. ADV LAMEY Was the blindfold in fact removed? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened then? MR KOOLE ADV SANDI Where is Mamasela at this stage? MR KOOLE I am not able to say whether Mr Mamasela was present when that person was brought and when the assault took place - as whether Mamasela was among the people who were there when the second person was assaulted. ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE Chairperson, when that person was removed it was - the interrogation ended then and we were instructed that it was now night and we should got and rest. Mr Venter said to us, there is no place where we can be accommodated to sleep, we would be better off if we can go to the Kombi and sleep there. ADV LAMEY Is that the way it happened, that you slept in the Kombi? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY When you say: "We", who are you referring to? MR KOOLE It is myself, Mr Mogoai and Mr Mamasela, the three of us slept in the Kombi. ADV SANDI Mr Koole, did you all go to the Kombi at the same time and slept there? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Yes, what happened next? MR KOOLE We went to sleep in the Kombi up to the following day. ADV LAMEY And the next morning, what happened then? MR KOOLE The interrogation started. We first went to Mr Hashe, he was released form the shackles and brought outside with the help so that he would be able to walk. He was put on the stoep, then the interrogation started on him. ADV LAMEY You say - the interpretation I heard, is that he was on the stoep or on the veranda, where exactly was he put? MR KOOLE He was removed from the rings which were implanted on the floor and after he was released from those rings he was taken outside just near the house where he was put on the easterly side. ADV LAMEY Is there a stoep there? MR KOOLE Yes, there is a veranda next to that place. ADV LAMEY What happened there? MR KOOLE He was interrogated again. Those questions were related to the questions he was referred to last night, mainly about guns and terrorists - those were the main questions that were directed to Mr Hashe. ADV LAMEY Can you recall who was present during this interrogation? MR KOOLE I know that Mr Venter was present, Mr Mamasela was present, Mr Mogoai was present, Mr Beeslaar was present and another two men who were there during the interrogation. ADV LAMEY You are referring to two other men, are you referring to the P.E. people or to whom are you referring? MR KOOLE That is correct, those are the two men who belong to the Port Elizabeth security branch. ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE Chairperson, that is where Mr Niewoudt would come, then from there would as a question, then he would leave, then he would come in and out so I would not be able to specify where he was present and when he was not present. He was moving around, so he would come to us and then again would go somewhere and then come back again, so I would not know where he went at that time when he was not present during the interrogation. ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER You may proceed. ADV LAMEY What happened then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Can you recall when mention was made of the AK47? MR KOOLE The question is incomplete. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON Can you just repeat what he has just said. ADV LAMEY Mr Koole, could you please repeat what you just said? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE That is where we were given time to rest and we left him there, he fell asleep where he was left. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE I saw some parts of his left or right eye being swollen. CHAIRPERSON Can you indicate to us where the swelling was? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE After he was given water he fell asleep where he was left - right in the sun. ADV LAMEY Yes, continue. MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Yes, what happened next? MR KOOLE Whilst I was trying to go to Mr Mogoai to tell him what I heard from Mr Hashe, the Port Elizabeth police - two men who were near, I thought they heard for themselves so they rushed to him with violence and they started kicking him and beating him whilst he was still laying on the ground. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY How was he assaulted? MR KOOLE He was kicked - much of the assault - whilst he was laying on the ground he was kicked when one of them kicked him just underneath the chin with - that person hit the corner of the wall, then he started bleeding on the side of the mouth and on the nose. ADV LAMEY Can I ask you - just a moment, can you recall where Mr Mamasela was at that stage? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE That may be correct, he could have been somewhere near although not close where he was able to see or hear what I heard or what I saw but I did not see him just next to vicinity or next to Mr Hashe when he was assaulted. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE He fainted - he became numb, then we could see that he was now weak. ADV LAMEY Before he fainted and after he had been kicked, did you see the way in which he fell? How did he fall, did you see that? MR KOOLE He was assaulted whilst he was lying on the ground so he became numb and fainted whilst he was on the ground. ADV LAMEY What happened then? MR KOOLE Then they left him, then they came back again. The two gentlemen came and pulled next to the water tap, they poured water on his head, then that water flew up to the body, then they closed the tap and then they left him there. ADV LAMEY What happened to Mr Hashe then? Was he still unconscious after the water was poured over him or what happened? MR KOOLE He fainted for a while, then after that he regained consciousness, then he rubbed his face with his clothes. ADV LAMEY And then, what happened to him? MR KOOLE From there he was left there. ADV DE JAGER And that stage, was he still handcuffed? MR KOOLE That is correct and whilst he was assaulted he was till cuffed, both hands and legs. ADV SANDI How did they get him to the water tank if he was still cuffed? MR KOOLE Chairperson, I believe that in my evidence I said - when he was brought from the house he was released from the rings and he was able to walk although he was walking heavily. He was dragged whilst he was cuffed on the legs and on the hands but they were removed from the rings in the room where he was put but he was able to be moved from place to place, either by him or with the help of others but he was able to be moved from one place to the other. CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE I explained that he was dragged to the tap which was near him, then water was poured on him. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I thought that was the question which was asked, thank you. ADV LAMEY What happened then with Mr Hashe? MR KOOLE He was - after he regained consciousness, he was taken back to the room where he was tied. ADV LAMEY Did you see that with your own eyes? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY After Mr Hashe was taken back to the room, what happened next? MR KOOLE Chairperson, a certain person who was taken the previous day - who was interrogated the following day, who was ...[indistinct] the previous day, was taken again to the place where he was interrogated the first day. ADV LAMEY The interpretation came through as being a: "certain person", is it one of the three people who had been detained? MR KOOLE That is correct Chairperson, he was the second person who was interrogated the previous day after Mr Hashe - the previous day, so the second person who was interrogated the previous night, was the same person who was interrogated for a second time after Mr Hashe. ADV LAMEY Where was he taken to? MR KOOLE He was taken near the house, there is a veranda and then he was put there. ADV LAMEY What happened - how did this person - what did he do? What happened further? MR KOOLE When he was brought there - when he arrived there, he was struggling to - he was kicking, he was shouting, then he was saying that he does not know a thing and there is nothing he would say. ADV SANDI Who was bringing him to this place? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Can we just take you back as something was not heard, you said that the same man who was interrogated for the second time was brought to the side of the house - the stoep, and I asked you whether he did anything and what happened further, can you just please take it from there? MR KOOLE I said that when he was brought there he was shouting and saying that he does not know anything and they were just troubling him. ADV LAMEY What happened further? MR KOOLE They started to assault him. He was put a wet bag, it is called PPR and you put articles of the detainees like belts - the things which we do allow them to go to the prison cells with and then that bag was put on his head, then it was tightened underneath just under the chin. ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE He was beaten, he was kicked - this bag was removed, then he was taken to the side of the garage which was near us there. ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE After the bag was removed from his head he was asked as to whether he is prepared to talk, then he denied and he said there is nothing which he will say which he knows and it is better for them to kill him. ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE He was put in the garage, then I went inside that garage and the bag was again put on his head, then it was made to be tight and he suffocated. ADV LAMEY And what did this person do while the bag was over his head? MR KOOLE He was struggling and he was shouting and from there he became weak and he was not able to shout or scream. ADV LAMEY While he was struggling and screaming and apart from the fact that the bag was over his head, was anything else done to him? MR KOOLE Chairperson, it was only the kicking and the beating. ADV LAMEY I want to ask you, during these events - after he was brought to the side of the house and the bag was pulled over his head and he was kicked and beaten until he was pulled back into the garage or dragged back, did you participate in these assaults at this stage? MR KOOLE No, Chairperson. ADV LAMEY Who was part of these assaults - that you can remember? MR KOOLE Those are the two men who were from P.E. who were interrogating Mr Hashe, those were the people who were assaulting this person. ADV LAMEY Was Mr Niewoudt among one of these people? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY You say that you went to the garage yourself, is that correct? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE After he was put in that garage - after the bag was put in, Mr Venter came. ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE He was angry and reprimanded those two men to remove the bag because it will kill this person. ADV LAMEY And what happened next? MR KOOLE They left him there - those men who were interrogating him left him and went inside and all of us left him there but he was till cuffed, both hands and legs. CHAIRPERSON Was the sack then removed from his head after Captain Venter had suggested it? MR KOOLE That is correct Mr Chairperson, because he was reprimanding them, they removed that sack quickly or that bag quickly. ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Yes, and what happened then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened then? ADV DE JAGER A moment please, you said that when they came out of the house they were very insulting, who did they insult? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Do I understand your testimony correct, it was just swearing but not aimed specifically at anybody? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE They closed the garage door after they went inside to where this person was in - the Black members were standing outside, then we heard this person screaming inside the garage. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE It is myself, Mamasela and Mr Mogoai, we were standing outside. CHAIRPERSON Who went into the garage? MR KOOLE Two men who went outside the house, then they went inside the garage. ADV SANDI Were you told to stand outside or was it your own decision to stand outside? MR KOOLE It was my decision to stand outside because I was not prepared to take part in the interrogation. ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE We were standing there - the three of us, Captain Venter came and then he went - proceeded to the house, Mr Beeslaar came to us where we were standing - that is myself, Mr Mamasela and Mogoai. ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE Captain Venter entered the garage where these two men from Port Elizabeth were in - together with the person who was screaming and Mr Beeslaar came to me and Mr Mogoai where we were standing. ADV LAMEY Yes, and what happened next? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What was your impression of Beeslaar at that stage, how did he seem or appear to you? MR KOOLE He was hurt because after that he folded his hands and he looked in the other direction and he gave us his back. ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY And then? MR KOOLE Mr Venter said to us we should go and rest for a while because it was in the afternoon. ADV LAMEY If you say that it was during the afternoon, what time was it? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY You say that there were five White, does this include Venter and Beeslaar? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV LAMEY You say fire was made, what happened then? MR KOOLE They made a braai. ADV LAMEY And then, what happened? MR KOOLE During that time when they were busy with the braai there were beer cans which were drank there and food was prepared. Mr Venter said we should eat first - we ate, then thereafter they ate. ADV LAMEY Do I understand you correctly if you say that alcohol was consumed during this braai? Were you present there? MR KOOLE Chairperson, whilst they were busy with the braai I was not present there because only Whites were busy with the braai but there were beer cans - I was able to see them. ADV LAMEY Are you saying that you were not present during the braai but that at one stage you did eat? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Thank you, I understand that but did you get any food to eat? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON Sorry. Mr Koole, you speak of cans of beer and the impression I get is that when you saw these cans they were empty. MR KOOLE They were having them in their hands - those people who were busy with the braai, they had those cans in the hands, so I believe they had contents inside. CHAIRPERSON I see, thank you. Yes Mr Lamey? ADV LAMEY Mr Koole, did you also have an opportunity to have something to drink? MR KOOLE That is correct, after I ate I had something to drink. ADV LAMEY If you refer to something to drink, are you referring to cooldrink or what was it? MR KOOLE Chairperson, the cooldrink which was there was used to mix liquor. Firstly, Mr Venter gave me a glass, it had brandy inside ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE I took brandy. ADV LAMEY And what happened next? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER Which of you did have something to drink? Which people did you see having something to drink? MR KOOLE Whom I know is Mr Beeslaar, Mr Venter, Mr Niewoudt, other men whom are known to me, myself and Mr Mogoai. ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE After those few drinks Mr Venter said to us we should go and sleep again in the Kombi in which we slept the previous night. ADV LAMEY Yes, and then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE I informed the two gentlemen - then after that I drove the Kombi and whilst it was idling for the engine to be a little bit warm. ADV LAMEY What happened then? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Who asked you this? MR KOOLE That is Mr Venter who said to me will I be able to see the direction to go back. ADV LAMEY And what happened then? MR KOOLE I said to him, when we turned to - when we came, we turned to the left, in other words which means if I could go back I would turn on the right hand side, I would not get lost. ADV LAMEY Who explained this to you? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON And what happened? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE It was like that - we left and then on the main road I turned left, then we saw the directions up to Glen Connor. ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE After we arrived at Glen Connor, we slept - when we went back all of us were tired so we slept and it was difficult to sleep in a Kombi during winter - so all of us were tired, we wanted to sleep early. ADV LAMEY What happened next? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE I woke up, then all of us were called and Mr Venter said to us we should pack our things on that night. ADV LAMEY Yes? MR KOOLE Because the following day - in the morning, we should drive back to Tlabani to do our normal work. ADV LAMEY Where is Tlabani? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Did you leave immediately - after Venter told you this, you just packed and left? MR KOOLE The following morning we put them in the Kombi in which we put our clothes in, as Venter said to us tomorrow morning we would go back. CHAIRPERSON The question is actually, did you continue sleeping after you had packed your stuff? Did you go back to bed and did you continue sleeping, did you only get up the next morning or did you immediately - without sleeping anymore, drive away? MR KOOLE We took our suitcases - except the blankets we used. In the morning when we woke up we took only our blankets and put them in the Kombi, we slept and then we left the following morning. ADV LAMEY Mr Chairman, I have now covered the particulars of the event, with your permission I will proceed with the political object and I will read it out and ask Mr Koole to confirm it. ADV LAMEY Mr Koole, on page 268 - could you please turn to that page, relating to the political objective, paragraph 10(a) and also 10(b) you say that "In this case, I as a member of Vlakplaas received my instructions from Captain Venter" Is that correct? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV LAMEY You say "We were not told before that there would be an abduction of these three people" MR KOOLE That is the truth Sir. ADV LAMEY Is that correct? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE That is correct Sir. ADV LAMEY You also say that "According to the questions put to them, I thought to myself that these three people were involved as leaders in the unrest in the Port Elizabeth vicinity" Is that correct? MR KOOLE It came to my mind that way Sir. ADV LAMEY You also say that the riots and unrest at that stage was rampant in that area at the time? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV LAMEY You also say that "They were also repeatedly asked as to who was supposed to meet them or who they were supposed to meet at the airport" MR KOOLE They were not questioned much, I think it was twice. They were asked by Mr Niewoudt whom they were expecting to meet at the airport. ADV LAMEY So, you say they were only asked twice? MR KOOLE Yes, I think they were asked twice. ADV LAMEY So it says here "They were repeatedly asked" MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER Who was asked, Mr Hashe or the other man or both of them? MR KOOLE This question was directed to Mr Hashe - to my mind it came as if he was elderly to all those two people and many questions were directed to him. ADV LAMEY You say further that you were of the opinion or you thought that Niewoudt was at that stage the Branch Commanding Officer of the security branch in Port Elizabeth and that you assumed that he had further information as to the reasons for the detention and interrogation of these people, is that correct? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Is that what you thought? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Yes, and then on page 269, question 11(a) regarding whether there was an order, instruction or approval, you said "Yes. The order or approval came from Captain Venter as well as from the security branch in Port Elizabeth - Lieutenant Niewoudt was the only officer from the security branch whom I knew at that stage" Is that correct? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV LAMEY And 11(b), you there refer specifically to the question in 11(a), is that correct? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Mr Mogoai, I ...[intervention] MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE I did not see Mr Niewoudt hitting Mr Hashe with an iron bar or an iron pipe. ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY He also says that you Warrant Office Koole, that you at some point put a question to the old man and it was regarded and described by the old man as a stupid question, and he then says that "Warrant Officer Koole kicked him hard in the face and I remember that foam came out of his mouth and his eyes rolled" What is your comment on this? MR KOOLE That is not correct, since Hashe regained consciousness, I was the one who was pitying him in the condition he was so I never continued assaulting him. ADV LAMEY He also says that What is your comment? MR KOOLE That is not true, there is nowhere where I saw Mr ...[indistinct] clothes or shoes covered with blood. ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY He then also refers to the fact that "Whilst Hashe was being interrogated and assaulted, he mentions a watch, something about a watch and Warrant officer Beeslaar" Do you know anything about that? MR KOOLE Chairperson, I only know one thing about the watch, then I would explain that. ADV LAMEY Yes, please do. MR KOOLE When Mr Hashe was removed from where he fainted I saw Mr Mamasela taking a watch from Mr Hashe, then he took it from him. To add, that watch was shining and even the handle was shining - the chain was shining. ADV LAMEY Yes, do you know anything else about this watch? MR KOOLE During that evening I saw Mamasela talking to Mr Beeslaar about the watch and they were discussing the price of the watch. ADV LAMEY Mamasela says here that he picked it up and gave it to Warrant Officer Beeslaar - here it sounds as if he just picked it up and there and then gave it to Warrant Officer Beeslaar but you say that you heard them discussing the watch later that evening, is that correct? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY On that second day - the evening after you arrived, was Hashe ever taken to the garage? MR KOOLE I want to understand the question, are you referring to the first day when we got to that house? ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Because Mr Mamasela says in his statement that he recalls that "Warrant Officer Koole" It seems as if it should read: What do you say about that statement? MR KOOLE It is not true. ADV LAMEY He also says that "Mr Galela had died approximately or somewhere between 5 and 6 in the afternoon" and that he was put back into the garage. "We put him back into the garage where Sipho Hashe was already lying dead and Godolozi was huddled in a pathetic little heap. And the braai continued and they drank and talked" What do you say about that evidence? MR KOOLE That is not true - from Mamasela, there is nothing like that that happened - that is a blatant lie. ADV LAMEY He also says that you were told to guard - to stand guard until the next morning, and it first had to be ascertained whether Godolozi was co-operative, did you actually stand guard? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY Did you see any cells in that place? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY MR KOOLE Let me explain it this way, I did not see him but I do have a belief that he could have been the person who was screaming when he was in that room where he was tied and this second who was interrogating him. ADV LAMEY You heard him shouting from somewhere, is that correct? At what stage was it that you heard him screaming? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY "Godolozi was interrogated in the same way as the other two" And then he says also that: "He was beaten and kicked and during the beating, the iron pipe was used and everybody took part in this - Warrant Officer Beeslaar used a stick as well and after about five to six hours he was lifeless. We placed his body in the garage and we had to clean up the area after that" What is your comment on that evidence? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON Just a moment, we would like to encourage people standing there at the back - if they could consider taking seats upstairs, it makes things easier for us that way. Yes, Mr Lamey? ADV LAMEY He also says that "We cleared up the ground and clean the ground where there was blood. A Toyota Kombi arrived whilst we were busy doing this and the three deceased were loaded into this vehicle. Warrant Officer Koole and I and Mogoai thereafter received instructions to return to our bases" Mr Koole, what I would like to put to you is that the effect of his testimony is that you and Mr Mogoai and him were still there when these people were killed and that they were actually beaten to death. And that you helped in the cleaning and clearing up afterwards and that you were also still present when a vehicle arrived there to pick up the bodies of the three deceased, what is your comment on that? MR KOOLE That kind of talk or explanation from Mamasela is not true. ADV LAMEY But I just want to say at the outset that my instructions from Mr Koole are that there are certain aspects in the statement - the statement which was recently shown to him and which he read, which he finds significant and some with which he does not agree. He said some things are actually incorrect in this statement and I would just like to place that on record. MR KOOLE I said, can you please give me a chance to have a look at the document. CHAIRPERSON Do you want us to adjourn for a few minutes. MR KOOLE COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey, without prescribing to you as to how you should deal with your matter, is it not better to leave it to the other people - if they so wish, to cross-examine your client in relation to or in connection with this affidavit and then if the need be, you will re-examine of course? ADV LAMEY As it please you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I just want to inform the Committee that we have supplied with photocopies which have been faxed by Mr Whale of the investigating team of the Attorney General, which is that copy of the signed statement of Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole. It has also been handed to the other legal representatives. Mr Koole, I just want to ask you, do you want to use this opportunity to say something to the family of the persons who were detained at Post Chalmers? MR KOOLE Yes, I would like to say something. ADV DE JAGER Please proceed. ADV LAMEY You may go ahead Mr Koole. MR KOOLE I do believe that this secret should come out and be known to the people at large and I think this is going to encourage a lot of other people to come forward with whatever information they have with regard to anything that has been done in the past. I want the people of Port Elizabeth to know that they have lost their heroes - it was the first time that I heard a person saying he would rather die than reveal important or essential information and I thank the people of Port Elizabeth for their co-operation, thank you. ADV LAMEY Mr Koole, are you also prepared - just as Mr Mogoai did, when there is a suitable occasion or when that occasion arises, to meet the family privately if they want to meet you? MR KOOLE I would appreciate that opportunity anytime. ADV LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the end of my questioning. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Koole, have you ever suffered or are you suffering at present from any mental or stress related disease that effects your thinking processes? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE No. ADV BOOYENS Have you ever been treated for stress? MR KOOLE The only thing that I suffered from was high blood pressure. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS And has been - before going to the security branch, had been in the police for a period of 13 years. MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS During this period you must have done certain basic law courses and must have a fair understanding of the criminal law, is that correct? MR KOOLE Yes, that is so. ADV BOOYENS You are aware of crimes such as kidnapping, murder, assault and perjury, is that correct? MR KOOLE Yes, I do know. ADV BOOYENS Have you ever been threatened by any person to make any statements with this incident? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Has any person ever offered you any money, inducement or made any promises to you in connection with any information you supplied in connection with this incident? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS I understood you to say - your attorney to say, that you are Tswana speaking and your other language is Afrikaans, is that correct? MR KOOLE Yes, that is so. ADV BOOYENS In fact, it seems to me that your Afrikaans is even good enough to make a statement in Afrikaans. MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS And when you were at Vlakplaas, your main language would have been Afrikaans? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Yes, I see. You can read Afrikaans? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS In your career as a policeman - especially as a uniformed policeman, you must have carried many dockets and written many statements in Afrikaans? MR KOOLE That is correct, I used Afrikaans - just ordinary Afrikaans, easy Afrikaans or ordinary Afrikaans so to speak. ADV BOOYENS Exhibit O - get that in front of you please, is it correct that your signature appears at the bottom of the first five pages and in the middle of the sixth page? MR KOOLE It is so. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE That is not so. ADV BOOYENS Do you deny that you have taken the oath in this statement? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS So you never took any oath, so it seems that that is the first bit of bad behaviour or the part of Mr de Lange but I think we will get him here and then he can come and explain to us why he states that you have taken a statement under oath. Will you be challenging the fact Mr de Lange - this Major in the police force, are you saying that he lied when he says that you took the oath here? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Well, these two Black men were obviously not just nobody, they must have been policemen? MR KOOLE That is so. I saw them, they are policemen yes. ADV BOOYENS Give us their names. MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Did you know their names then? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE That is how they called his name. ADV BOOYENS So you read the statement and you pointed out to them that there was certain things wrong in it, is that correct? MR KOOLE That is so. ADV BOOYENS And ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, let me - before we go further. I see on page six, you signed this statement at Letlabile, is that correct? MR KOOLE That is true, I signed it Letlabile - that is my house. CHAIRPERSON And it is an African township? MR KOOLE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON As far as I know it is in the district of Brits. MR KOOLE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON How far is this place from Pretoria? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE No, that is not correct. CHAIRPERSON Go on Mr Booyens. ADV BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. So you in fact signed it at Letlabile? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS Was there - and do you know de Lange? MR KOOLE Yes, I do. ADV BOOYENS From where? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS For what purpose? MR KOOLE He called me into his office to come and submit a statement or sign a statement - he came to me and told me that the following day I should come. ADV BOOYENS And did you go? Did you make a statement? MR KOOLE That is so. ADV BOOYENS Did you sign a statement? MR KOOLE It is so but at the time that I was giving him the statement he was writing and he said to me I should wait until the statement was signed then I would be able to - typed, so that I would be able to sign it at a later stage. And that is how it happened, the statement was typed and I signed the statement at his office. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS Was that statement made before or after this statement of the 26th of April 1996? MR KOOLE I do believe that it was signed before the one in front of me. ADV BOOYENS Was that statement also a typed statement? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Well, - unless I misunderstood the interpretation, I understood you to say you did go back and sign a statement at his office? Mr Chairperson, that seems to be my recollection of what I heard. MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS And you waited? MR KOOLE Yes, I did. ADV BOOYENS And they then came to you with the statement? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS And you read the statement? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS And you read paragraph 25 of the statement? Read it out for the record please. MR KOOLE This is not the statement that I signed. CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS No. CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON We know there are two statements. ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS Very well, let me clear that up ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He said - you actually asked him whether it was signed before or after this one. ADV BOOYENS Yes, I know. CHAIRPERSON You actually asked him and he said: "It was signed before this one". ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS Did you sign two typed statements? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Okay, very well, then I am wrong and you are right. And then they arrived with this statement, what do you know about this statement - Exhibit O? MR KOOLE This statement is the statement that I made to Mr de Lange after we had come to Port Elizabeth and Glen Connor as well as Cradock. He called me and said to me I should come to his office to make another statement and that is the statement that stands in front of me. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE Yes, it is typed and they came to me at Letlabile with that statement typed. ADV BOOYENS Right, now take this statement in front of you and read paragraph 25. Read it on the record please. MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS That was there before you put your signature under this statement? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS So, you knew full well that any of those policemen could at that stage - immediately after you had signed it, affirm this? MR KOOLE They even had to phone Mr de Lange at his office and speak to him and they said he said I should sign the statement and whatever mistake was in there would be rectified after I had signed it. ADV BOOYENS ADV LAMEY Mr Chairman, I think this is a highly argumentative question - if my learned friend could perhaps rephrase this. ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON You surely can identify the areas of conflict without necessarily going through every sentence. ADV BOOYENS Yes. Well, I can identify the conflict but perhaps the witness should tell us what is wrong with it. You have the opportunity to read this statement, is that correct? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE On the first page - that is on the 1st paragraph, my police number is not complete as it stands. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE It starts with an S and ...[intervention] ADV BOOYENS Just tell us the mistakes. MR KOOLE And ends with a 9. ADV BOOYENS Right, carry on. MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER Could you please tell us - paragraph 2, when did you go on pension? MR KOOLE On the 31st of December 1993. ADV DE JAGER And what is the mistake in paragraph 2? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Was it September/October 1980 that you were transferred to Vlakplaas? MR KOOLE That is not so. ADV BOOYENS Which year were you transferred to Vlakplaas? MR KOOLE That was in 1984 when I went to Vlakplaas and that has not been referred to in here. ADV BOOYENS Anything wrong in paragraph 4? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Okay. MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE On paragraph 4, the names of the people that I referred to are not complete and I would like to refer to my application so that I can remind myself of their names. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Very well, anything wrong in paragraph six? CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS Very well. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koole, you are going to look - for example, look at paragraph five, you look it through and you will be the one who is going to tell us that you are now moving to the next paragraph, do you understand? MR KOOLE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE As the Commission pleases, I shall do so. CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Would that be all right with you Mr Booyens and we can proceed with other aspects? ADV BOOYENS I think that would be a most practical solution Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, all right. ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON What should we ask him? ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS Sorry, are you going to adjourn Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON No. ADV BOOYENS Oh! CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Koole, you are still under oath. JOHANNES KOOLE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens? ADV BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] ADV BOOYENS INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE No. INTERPRETER ADV BOOYENS Can we try Afrikaans? INTERPRETER The families are not going to hear the Xhosa interpretation. CHAIRPERSON It seems to me that ...[intervention] ADV BOOYENS INTERPRETER Yes, we do. ADV BOOYENS Mr Koole, thank you for being prepared to give up your lunch to go through this statement. Have you now dealt with all those aspects of Exhibit O that you say are incorrect? MR KOOLE Yes, I have and I have seen some mistakes that I have tried to rectify. ADV BOOYENS Could you perhaps then start wherever you want to start rectifying mistakes and go through it slowly so that we can follow it and tell us where are mistakes and let us rectify that? MR KOOLE As the Commission pleases, I will start from the first page. On the 3rd paragraph, September up to October is referred to but no year is being quoted here when I went to Vlakplaas, therefore I do not know which year is being referred to here. On the 4th paragraph, I have proof that Mr Venter was a Captain at that time. INTERPRETER The Afrikaans was not interpreted so we want him to repeat. CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS 6 and 9. ADV DE JAGER Which date is the correct date, was it March or April - is that the mistake? The one refers to the 22nd of March and the other one to the 23rd of April, what should the date be? MR KOOLE I do not know the right date but this date differs, that is why I showed the mistake with regard to the months as well as the dates. CHAIRPERSON You made some so-called pointing out with - only once. MR KOOLE That is correct, I only came to this place only once to those pointing outs and the dates on which I did the pointing outs are different. CHAIRPERSON Yes, go on. MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON That is actually paragraph seven? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON It must be. MR KOOLE The explanation is that Mr Niewoudt is not the one who told us not to get into the Black residential areas, it was Mr Venter. CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE That is so, that is how it is linked to the sentence that says "We should not got to the Black residential areas because you might find yourselves being involved in shootings, that is what Venter said." CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR KOOLE ADV LAMEY CHAIRPERSON ADV LAMEY As it please you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat what you said Mr Koole. MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE What surprises me is the allegation - that is after a few days, we were with them throughout the time so it cannot be referred to as: "after a few days". CHAIRPERSON A few days after you had arrived in Port Elizabeth from Pretoria? ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON The only person who told you to go to the airport was Mr Venter? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Was Mr Niewoudt and Beeslaar present when you were told to go to the airport? MR KOOLE Yes, they were present but they did not utter any words. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR KOOLE Mr Venter - when he said I should take the Toyota, he did not say that it was because it had dark windows. Furthermore, Mr Niewoudt is not the one who said that we should go to the airport - he did not tell us as to where to park once we reach the airport. On the third page the eight paragraph, there is an allegation that as soon as we got to the airport I saw three men standing quite a distance from us. It is not like that, these men came whilst we were already there. CHAIRPERSON That is paragraph 9? MR KOOLE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You never said that, you never said to whoever you were making the statement, that "As soon as we arrived or just after we arrived, three men arrived at the airport" MR KOOLE In this statement it says When we got in there, I personally saw three men who were standing a distance from us. But it is not like that. CHAIRPERSON Just read that sentence that you are querying. MR KOOLE "Soon after our arrival at the airport, I saw three men standing around at the airport" CHAIRPERSON You never said that? MR KOOLE That is not so. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR KOOLE On the tenth paragraph there is an allegation that Mr Niewoudt, as well as three other men brought these men. I never said Mr Niewoudt was amongst these men. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER How should it read? MR KOOLE "Just outside the airport complex and we drove to a clump of trees where we met Joe Mamasela with a strange car" ADV DE JAGER Is that wrong? CHAIRPERSON Actually the question is: "What is the correct version"? MR KOOLE I do not have any evidence to the effect that Mr Niewoudt took us there and that Mr Mamasela came in an unidentified car. CHAIRPERSON That did not happen as far you remember? MR KOOLE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The next sentence ...[intervention} Yes? MR KOOLE When I go even further - when Mamasela came to sit next to me - just before we got into the roadblock, these men were already blindfolded as well as handcuffed but this has not been written in this statement. I also that the driver of the Kombi in which we were spoke to a certain man who was at the roadblock and that man allowed us to go through - that is not correct. Furthermore, on the very same day there was a braai as well as drinks - that is not correct. Where the paragraph ends - I do not know what that stands for this Afrikaans word, therefore I could not have said it. Further down ...(intervention) ADV BOOYENS Which word is it? CHAIRPERSON "Gelawe" ADV SANDI Mr Koole, you say you do not understand what this word means and therefore you could never have said it? MR KOOLE That is correct, I do not know the meaning of the name therefore I could not have used that name. ADV SANDI What language were you speaking when you were making this statement? MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER Can you possibly indicate which word you used to show that these person were not conscious anymore or had been brought to? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON Yes, go on. MR KOOLE Within the same paragraph it is stated that: "These people" - that is not so. It is further said that this interrogation took the whole day but that is not correct. On the 20th Paragraph: "These men were locked in a cell" - that is not correct, I do not agree with that allegation. CHAIRPERSON "The three of us then ate and so forth" MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON Yes, go on. MR KOOLE On the 23rd paragraph - I said: " I did not see this man being given food" - even during my chief examination, I think I said that Mr Hashe was given water - it is not like that. It was further said that they were assaulted from there and it is said that there is another one who had a wound and he was swollen on the forehead. On the 7th page - 6th page ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Well, how should it read? If this is wrong, how should it read and what exactly is wrong in paragraph 23? MR KOOLE ADV SANDI The first part of that sentence which says "They were continuously beaten" Is that correct? MR KOOLE I do not follow you, could you please repeat the question? ADV SANDI On paragraph 23, the first part of the sentence that says "They were continuously beaten" Did you say that is also incorrect? MR KOOLE "They were beaten continuously" what do they mean, so that is wrong. 24th paragraph - it is alleged that we stayed for two days at Glen Connor before Mr Venter came to tell us - me and Mr Mogoai, we should go back to Vlakplaas - I believe that is myself and Joe Mamasela because it is alleged that myself, Joe Mamasela and Mogoai should go back to Vlakplaas after two days - that is not correct. On the day when we returned from the old farm, we were given that instruction that the following day we should go back, then all of us left with all our luggage and no-one was left behind - that is myself Mamasela and Mogoai only who should go back to Vlakplaas. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Booyens? ADV BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Just listen to the question then you will understand - but then it seems there are things here which cannot be mistakes but which was deliberately put in by de Lange - allegations about continuous assaults, allegations that people were - all three were assaulted by everybody on your arrival and so those are things that - according to you, de Lange sucked out of his thumb because you never said it, is that correct? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Just listen to the question please Mr Koole. Let us for example take the allegation at paragraph 14 and 15 - if you read the two together. MR KOOLE I see them. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Paragraph 15 is a lie and it was a lie that de Lange deliberately put in here. MR KOOLE That is not true, I did not say it is a lie - all of this which appears there is a lie, I only pointed out about other things which were not correct but there are other statements with which I agree on this document. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE I see that statement Sir, I see that paragraph Sir. ADV BOOYENS So you are telling us that is something that de Lange sucked out of his thumb - you never said it. MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE That is not so because what Niewoudt has said - and I tried to explain the way I know it. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE In other instances, yes. CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON I think you are right Mr Booyens, there are so many things which are being queried here and which could really amount to denuding the statement almost completely. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE Sir, we did go - it was in the evening, we were driving with one Kombi. ADV BOOYENS What was the purpose of that? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Now, you also mentioned that you visited Mr Niewoudt in his office, is that correct? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS How long had you people been here approximately, before this incident at Cradock occurred? About a week, is that correct? MR KOOLE It might be a week. ADV BOOYENS Not more than a week? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS So, accepting that the Cradock incident occurred on the 9th, you people would have arrived here at the beginning of May - about the 1st or 2nd of May? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Did you visit - in your capacity as one of the liaison officers for the Askaris, did you visit Niewoudt everyday at his office or if not, how many times? MR KOOLE It would be three days to four days. ADV BOOYENS Three to four occasions in other words - on different days? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS If we talk about the Sanlam building, we talk about the building near the beach front or near the beach - near the railway station? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS Do you know where Louis le Grange Police Station is here in Port Elizabeth? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE Because it was for the first time here in Port Elizabeth, I did not know when they left where I saw them if you tell me that is not so but I only know that I saw them at Sanlam building near the beach where they were. I did not know the information as to when they moved from that building to Louis le Grange, I only saw them at Sanlam building. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE I would answer shortly by saying - how do I know that those people were staying at Union building - if I came here for the first time, how did I smell that they were transferred from Sanlam building to Louis le Grange? I never any other person other than Sanlam building where I met Mr Niewoudt. ADV BOOYENS Very well. ADV DE JAGER Mr Booyens, was the whole police contingency transferred from Sanlam to Louis le Grange or was it only certain sections that went? ADV BOOYENS ADV SANDI MR KOOLE That is correct Mr Chairperson, those are my words. ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS Yes. CHAIRPERSON When you went to Sanlam building to look for Mr Niewoudt, was it because you were told that the offices of the security branch were at Sanlam? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON Mr Booyens, when exactly did the security branch - according to your instructions, leave this building? ADV BOOYENS 27 April Mr Chairman, in fact Niewoudt gave that evidence as well - 27 April and Niewoudt gave that evidence as well. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koole, is it not possibly so that you might have arrived here in P.E. in April? MR KOOLE No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And that you went to those offices before they left Sanlam. MR KOOLE That is not so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Mr Booyens? ADV BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. Now let us deal with the incident at the airport - you never knew what exactly you were going to do at the airport except that you had to park there - you were not briefed about what to do, is that what you say? MR KOOLE That is correct - as usual, that is correct. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS When was - during this whole exercise, when was the first time that you thought something illegal was happening? MR KOOLE It came to my mind when these people were cuffed on their legs and feet, therefore I expected that something illegal would happen - something evil and illegal would happen. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE May you please repeat your question Sir? ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS And if I understand you correctly, what appeared to you was as if they were arrested by the other policemen and brought to the Kombi? MR KOOLE As I explain that it happened - when they were cuffed on their hands and legs, that they were arrested but when they came into the Kombi and that they should sit at the back, it did not come to me that they were arrested. ADV BOOYENS Well, did you think - for one moment, really thing that these three gentlemen were walking to that Kombi voluntarily or did you think the other policemen were telling them to come to the Kombi, in other words the other policemen have effect an arrest? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS ADV DE JAGER ADV BOOYENS Perhaps I should just clear that up. When you - directly after you drove away from the airport, who were the people in your vehicle? MR KOOLE The question could have been: "With whom were you in the car", that could have been the question. If the question was - I was not the one who was driving at that time, I was one of the passengers. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Who was driving? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Directly - from the time when you pulled away at the airport? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS Directly ...[intervention] MR KOOLE Immediately after these people were put in the Kombi, he came at the drivers seat, then he opened the door, then I went to the back seat, then he continued driving the car. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE Not at all. ADV BOOYENS And the first time that you noticed that these people were being physically restrained, is after some time when they stopped and they were handcuffed? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Were you - at any stage, given any background about these people? MR KOOLE No, Mr Chairperson. ADV BOOYENS The question was: "At any stage", that will in other words mean, from the time that you picked them up at the airport until the time that you leave that police station outside Cradock, were you ever told the what and the why about them? MR KOOLE The questions which were asked during the interrogation - particularly to Mr Hashe, I was able to detect that they were asked about the violence and the unrest in their area and again they were interrogated about guns and arms, about ANC activities and Pebco - those are some of the questions we asked - that is we arrest somebody, we would look for any information which would make a follow up after that or through that information. ADV BOOYENS But you yourself were never given information to enable you to assist with the interrogation? MR KOOLE No, Sir. ADV BOOYENS Did you yourself ask any questions? MR KOOLE You mean asking the deceased or meaning the members of the security branch in Port Elizabeth? ADV BOOYENS Deceased. MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER Did Mr Mogoai ask any questions? MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER Were you present? MR KOOLE I was present but I was not near them, that is why I was able to see that they were talking. ADV DE JAGER Sorry. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE Even if I had interest - at times I would interfere in the interrogation of these people, then I would confuse their objective because I would ask a question which was not needed or necessary and that is why in many instances I withdraw during the interrogation. ADV BOOYENS Yes, but we know that on this instance you did not withdraw from the interrogation because you stayed there - you told us so, is that right? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON Yes, I heard that. ADV BOOYENS You refrained from taking part in the interrogation, you had no interest in this case but you assaulted the man, is that right? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS Why? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE If a person is assaulted by your colleagues, then you stand aside alone - you must have an intention why you did not take part in that assault, that is why I took part - I would be alone, standing aside and other people assaulting. I did not know what I would I say as whether who am I that I failed to take part in that assault. ADV BOOYENS And on what other occasions did you assault any of the three deceased, apart from that evening - Mr Hashe? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS The questions is - you took part in this assault on Mr Hashe, on what occasion - if any, did you assault any of the other deceased during the course of that period? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS That was the second assault you took part in? MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS And was Mogoai there as well? MR KOOLE Which assault - when you say: "Was Mr Mogoai there" or do you mean all assaults? ADV BOOYENS Mr Koole, we are talking about the second person that was assaulted, please - that night. Was Mogoai there and did he take part in the assault? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Did you take part in any other assaults? ADV DE JAGER Mr Booyens, you asked two questions actually. In the first place, was Mr Mogoai present there with the assault of the second person? MR KOOLE Yes, he was present. ADV DE JAGER Did he take part in the assault? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS How did you assault Mr Hashe? MR KOOLE Chairperson, as took part - as I remember, I beat him with fists and I kicked. ADV BOOYENS How did you assault the second person? MR KOOLE With my fists and whilst he was on the ground I was kicking him. ADV BOOYENS Right, did you take part in any further assaults? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE That is not so, that is where I would take part in the assault where it is necessary - understanding the reasons why that person should be assaulted, then you have evidence that I saw this person doing this, then that is where I would take part fully with the assault. CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE That is correct Mr Chairperson. ADV BOOYENS And were there many other occasions in your career where you assaulted people reluctantly? MR KOOLE Do you mean other than these incidents? ADV BOOYENS Yes. MR KOOLE Yes. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE Even before that, even before I went to Vlakplaas. ADV BOOYENS In the security branch? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Now, seeing that you were so reluctant to assault these people - nobody put any pressure on you and on what you described to us it seems to me as it these White policemen were dealing quite capably and so was your colleague - with assaulting these people, why take part at all seeing that you were so reluctant to do it? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS And your impression was that a further vicious assault took place in that garage MR KOOLE That is not correct, whom do you mean was assaulted in the garage? ADV BOOYENS CHAIRPERSON ADV BOOYENS Yes. What but assaults did you expect was going on in that garage when you saw these people going in to the man - into the garage where the man - closed the door and he started screaming, surely that could have only been an assault not so? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Mr Koole, ....[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just a minute. You said that - just before that particular assault, did you not say that White members of the security branch went into the house and when they came out they were very angry and they used swear words? MR KOOLE I said so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And then, while they were so angry and swearing they went into the garage together with Captain Venter? MR KOOLE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The door was closed and then you heard some screaming thereafter. MR KOOLE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now tell us what you think happened in the garage or tell us what you think was happening in the garage after you saw people come out, angry, swearing - went into the garage and the next thing you hear somebody screaming. Do you think that person was screaming just on his own? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON Yes, you will not be able to tell us but I want to know what you thought, what did you think was happening to him? What did you think caused him to scream? MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Booyens. ADV BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. And did you feel sorry for that man that you thought was being assaulted? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Please, just now you told the Chairperson that you thought the man was being assaulted and that I suggest to you would have been the only reasonable thought in the circumstances. You did think the man was being assaulted, assaulted badly enough that he was screaming, did you feel sorry for him, yes or no? MR KOOLE As I said I did not know as whether he was assaulted, I just thought he could have been assaulted. CHAIRPERSON MR KOOLE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV BOOYENS Did you feel ...[inaudible] MR KOOLE I did not. ADV BOOYENS Did you feel sorry for anybody that had been assaulted on this occasion? MR KOOLE Yes, Chairperson. ADV BOOYENS For who and when? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Let us just deal with your thoughts furthermore. After these unknown people went into the garage and closed the door, you heard the screams, they came out and I seem to recall you said: "The garage door was not locked when they came out", did I hear you correctly? MR KOOLE I did not say it was locked, I said it was closed. ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE After they entered the garage they closed the door. ADV DE JAGER And when they came out? MR KOOLE When they went out of the garage they left the door open. ADV BOOYENS ADV DE JAGER MR KOOLE After they left the garage I peeped through, then I saw him leaning against the wall. CHAIRPERSON Was he standing or seated? MR KOOLE He was seated and leaning against the wall. ADV BOOYENS And to you knowledge, was this the last assault that happened that day? MR KOOLE Do you mean for assault on the person who was in the garage - so that I should give you a correct answer? ADV BOOYENS Yes. MR KOOLE That is correct, after they went out of the garage there was no other assaults, then they started making fire. ADV BOOYENS Yes. And your colleague testified that in fact it was suggested that - after the braaivleis, that the three people be fed and three plates were taken and he in fact went so far to say that he went to Mr Hashe and noticed that left most of his food uneaten, is that your recollection as well? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Now, this Mamasela, what - everybody is kicking people and beating them up and questioning them, what did Mamasela do all the time? - he had a very low profile as far as I could see. MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Did you ever ask Mamasela what he did? MR KOOLE No, Chairperson. ADV BOOYENS Why not? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS You were not an interrogation specialist, were you? Why were you - the question is not whether anything was success or failure of the operation but your whole involvement as to why you were drawn into this irregular operation - you must have wondered about it and wanted to know: "But why were we drawn into it" and you never asked questions about it, why not? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS What were your instructions that you were supposed to fulfil, go to the airport and wait there? - no logical reason for you being involved. MR KOOLE That is correct. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE Not at all. ADV BOOYENS Well, I suggest to you that the only logical explanation for that is that you people had a far greater role to play than you would want us to know and that is because you were involved with the kidnapping of these people, involved in the sense that you did the actual kidnapping. Not so? MR KOOLE ADV DE JAGER Was Mr Mamasela involved in the kidnapping? MR KOOLE No-one among us three took part in the abductions. ADV DE JAGER You never left the Kombi, you were sitting in the Kombi during the whole kidnap process? MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS MR DU PLESSIS If my learned friend could just indicate where that is said. ADV BOOYENS Perhaps I should correct that. MR KOOLE That is not correct. ADV BOOYENS MR KOOLE ADV BOOYENS Now, I just want you to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS