amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-02-11 PIETERMARITZBURG https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54842&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pmb/malevu3.htm CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior? ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to proceed? ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, it is the 11th of February 1998, we continue with the matter for amnesty on Mr Malevu, Tanda and Shiceka. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Before we proceed with the next applicant, can we go back to Mr Tanda? You are still under oath Mr Tanda. F W TANDA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Where did you live then, at the time of the incident? MR TANDA It was at Maskopase, New Castle. CHAIRPERSON MR TANDA I was staying at Maskopase, a township in Newcastle. CHAIRPERSON Was that your home? MR TANDA CHAIRPERSON No, I wanted to know where you ordinarily lived? I know for you to carry out an attack in Newcastle you had to be in Newcastle, I wanted to know where you ordinarily otherwise lived. MR TANDA My home is at Moleteno in the Eastern Cape. CHAIRPERSON The purpose of coming to Newcastle was specifically to come and carry out that kind of operation? MR TANDA CHAIRPERSON Anybody with questions flowing from that? Mr Prior? ADV PRIOR: CHAIRPERSON ADV PRIOR: As the Committee pleases. MR TANDA ADV PRIOR: MR TANDA ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR UNKNOWN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Tanda. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE Thank you Mr Chairman, learned members of the Committee. Can I call on Andele Shiceka to be sworn in to give evidence Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes, how do you pronounce yourself, Mr Shiceka? MR SHICEKA Sorry? CHAIRPERSON You are Mr Shiceka? MR SHICEKA Yes. ANDELE SHICEKA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shiceka, you were convicted by the Criminal Court in May of last year, of 1994. Mr Shiceka, you were convicted in May of 1994 of murder, attempted murder, unlawful possession of machine guns and unlawful possession of grenades and you were sentenced to an effective term of imprisonment of 25 years, is that correct? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Is it also correct that you are applying for amnesty in respect of all these offences which you were convicted of? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE These offences flow from the incident at the Crazy Beat Disco on the 14th of February 1994. MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE When you and your co-applicant, Walter Tanda entered the Crazy Beat Disco and fired ammunition into the disco from your automatic rifles, is that correct? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Now, Mr Chairman, if I could refer to pages 41, in fact Mr Chairman, 38, 39 and 41 of the record. Mr Shiceka, you gave evidence at the criminal trial, is that right? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA Yes, I do remember. MR ARENDSE Now today in your amnesty application before the Committee you are now admitting, confessing to your involvement in the Crazy Beat Disco killing, is that right? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Is it correct however that you are a member of APLA? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE When did you become a member of APLA? MR SHICEKA It was 1989. MR ARENDSE 1989? Did you receive any training and if so, where did you receive that training? Was it inside the country, outside the country? MR SHICEKA Outside the country. MR ARENDSE Were you involved in any APLA incidents before the Newcastle incident, before the 14th of February 1994? MR SHICEKA Yes, there were other operations in which I was involved. Yes, I was involved in some operations. MR ARENDSE Have you applied for amnesty in respect of those operations? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Now just before we get to the incident, just some personal details. How old are you now? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Are you married? MR SHICEKA No married. MR SHICEKA I have no children. MR ARENDSE Where you ordinarily reside? Where do you hail from? MR SHICEKA In Cape Town, Guguletu, 72 number 11. MR ARENDSE Were you born in Cape Town? MR SHICEKA Yes. MR ARENDSE Did you go to school? MR SHICEKA Yes. MR ARENDSE Did you finish school or did you leave school before you could finish school? MR SHICEKA I did finish school. MR ARENDSE Where did you go to school? INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA I went up to standard 10. MR ARENDSE Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shiceka, you heard your co-applicant Mr Tanda testify that he was introduced to you at Umtata, is that correct? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE And he was introduced to you by Umzala Power Jones, one and the same person, is that right? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Is it at that meeting - and that would have been in January of 1994, is that right? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Would it be at that meeting where you were introduced to each other, that you were told about the Newcastle operation? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Were you told specifically what you were to do in Newcastle and how you were to go about doing it? Were you given any detailed plan by Umzala? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Can you tell us about those details? MR SHICEKA In the meeting that we had with him together with Tanda, he told us that we should go to Newcastle. When we arrived in Newcastle we have attack places where we can find white people. MR ARENDSE Were you given any other details? MR SHICEKA No. MR ARENDSE You were also - you then travelled from Umtata to Newcastle and there were four of you, you and Tanda, Sitenbele and Funani, is that right? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE And according to Tanda he was appointed commander of that unit? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE And on the night of the attack it was the four of you together with the driver Dube, who carried out the attack on the crazy beat disco, is that correct? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA The decision was taken by Tanda. MR ARENDSE Yes? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Can you tell us why the restaurant and the disco were identified as targets to be attacked? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Did you see that for yourself, that there were - as you put it, white people in numbers and the restaurant and at the disco? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Why did you not attack the restaurant? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Can you provide us with reasons why the decision was taken that the target should be where you find whites: "in large numbers", as you put it? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Now there seems to be a shift from attacking those: "hard targets" to what is referred to as: "soft or civilian targets" where there are people involved, ordinary civilians presumably innocent civilians. Can you explain whether there was in fact that shift? Were you aware that there was that shift in strategy? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Did you not question the order? MR SHICEKA CHAIRPERSON Sorry, causing what? Mutiny or meeting? MR SHICEKA Mutiny. UNKNOWN I think he said mutiny. MR ARENDSE Have you ever defied an order given to you by your commander or someone in the APLA high command? MR SHICEKA I never defied any orders since from the time I joined the army. MR ARENDSE Do you know of any of your comrades in the APLA army who defied an order and if so, what happened to that person? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE And these forms of discipline which you describe to us, did you see that here in this country or did it happen outside of the borders? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Is that while you were staying in camps? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Now the arms and ammunition which was used during the attack, where did that come from? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE And did you find the arms in Newcastle, you obviously did. Where did you find the arms and ammunitions and the grenades? MR SHICEKA At Miki. MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Did you take all the arms and ammunition with you in the car that evening? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE The car that you used during the attack was a Cressida, we know that and that Cressida was high-jacked. Were you part of the group that high-jacked the car? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Now, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Who is Miki? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Thank you. Now, when you were in the Cressida and you went towards the target, you went first to the restaurant, is that correct? MR SHICEKA We started at the restaurant. MR ARENDSE And you got out of the car and you actually went to the restaurant, is that right? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE And I take it at the time you went to the restaurant you were not armed? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Now we know that the disco was not far from the restaurant, is that right? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE So from the restaurant you moved to the disco? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE And did you go into the disco first or did Tanda go first? MR SHICEKA Tanda went first. He got out of the car to go and look around in the disco, he came back. MR ARENDSE And what did he - did he speak to you, did he tell you anything, did he give you any orders? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Now you were also armed or you also had in your possession a grenade, is that right? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Can you recall how many times you fired or how many bullets you fired? How much ammunition you used during the attack? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Was it one magazine, two magazines? Did you change magazines, can you recall? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE How many rounds in one magazine, the rifle that you were using? MR SHICEKA CHAIRPERSON MR SHICEKA CHAIRPERSON Mr Arendse, I think you must clear that up. MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Thank you. Now you shot through - how wide was this grill, this door that you were firing through? CHAIRPERSON Is it the width of an ordinary normal door? MR SHICEKA Yes, a normal door. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR ARENDSE Thank you. So you fired through there and you fired quite a number of shots. It resulted in one person being killed and two people being injured. Now, you only learnt that afterwards obviously, that one person was killed, two people were injured. Did you expect more people to be killed or injured? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Was the disco full? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE So, given that you expected more people to be killed or injured, did you not regard the operation as a success? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE Now you killed Ms Gerbrecht Selomina van Wyk and I understand that at the time she was the mother of four young children. They were been at the time, 14, 10, 13 and 6 at the time. You were obviously not aware of that but now that you know that, how do you feel about what happened that evening and particularly that you killed Ms van Wyk? MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE MR SHICEKA MR ARENDSE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior? ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: I want to just follow on from what you said, that the killing of a human being is a - I think in your words or in the summary of your words, was a very serious matter. MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: I want to draw your attention to what the Judge, Mr Justice Hugo said at your trial - and I refer to pages 38 and 39 of Exhibit A Mr Chairman, at the bottom of page 38. Sorry, before I lead on with that, is it correct that at the trial you denied being part of the attack, you said you had not partaken or not participated in the attack of the disco, is that correct? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: The Judge commented as follows in summarising your evidence Is that correct? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: Did you also drink beer with the others? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: I get the impression that [End of Tape A - no follow on sound] MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: CHAIRPERSON "we drank beer" is correct, whereas we know that he told a lot of lies to the Judge. Maybe we should first find out, even if that portion is the truth. ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will. Mr Shiceka, as Mr Chairman has pointed out, did you in fact drink beer? MR SHICEKA CHAIRPERSON MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: Did you tell the Court that you were the senior officer of APLA in Newcastle at the time? Mr Chairman, I refer to page 40 of the bundle, Exhibit A. MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: Was that true or not true? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: Were you also running away from a conviction or maybe I can ask you this question, why did you say that during your trial, that you were the senior officer of APLA in Newcastle area? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: "Power told me at Umtata" "Power told me at Umtata that we must meet at a certain house and told me to prepare for a trip to Newcastle" Now Power, did you ever see him, have you ever seen him after the attack whilst you were in prison? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: You indicated in your evidence that the decisions or the decision to attack white target, in other words white civilians was a political decision, something over which you had no control. MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: MR SHICEKA I think in my application form at the bottom there is the name of Leklapa Pathlele who was the director of operations of APLA. CHAIRPERSON What about it? ADV PRIOR: CHAIRPERSON Page? ADV PRIOR: First of all, if you could just confirm that that is your application? Is that your application? MR SHICEKA Yes, it is. ADV PRIOR: And at page 5 you mention under paragraph 11(b) "Under whose" Sorry, the pages are hitting the microphone which is very sensitive. Could you just move the document away, thank you. "Under whose approval or order was the attack carried out"? You referred to: "Comrade Umzala who issued the order to take the war to the white areas and to destroy the state machinery" Is that the person Leklapa Pathlele that you referred to? MR SHICEKA This is Umzala from Transkei, the man who gave us the instruction to go and attack in Newcastle. When or while I was in prison, people who came to visit me to help me with the amnesty application was a member of the parliament, comrade Sizani. The second one who came to visit me in Worcester is Leklapa Pathlele. ADV PRIOR: Yes sorry, you seem to have missed the question. The question is simply, did you ever make enquiries from any of the leadership who you now confirm came to see you in prison, whether that in fact was the policy at the time, to take the struggle into the white areas and to attack white target? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: While you were in prison because up until that stage you had no contact, on your evidence, that you had contact with either leadership of the PAC or of the high command of APLA. You were simply acting on what Umzala or Power had told you in Umtata? MR SHICEKA When they came to me we never discussed anything, they only helped me with the application. ADV PRIOR: Were you aware - sorry, did you attend the conference of the PAC at Umtata during December of 1993? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: Would you agree then, that attacking white civilians was a departure from the normal targets that had been attacked by APLA in the past? MR SHICEKA I will not be in a position to comment on that point because the people who took decisions were the seniors. We as foot soldiers, we had to carry out orders. ADV PRIOR: Yes, I understand that but your counsel also put to you that there seemed to be a change on the nature of the targets that APLA were now concentrating on. You as a soldier, were you not able to even formulate that in your mind that: in the we were attacking military targets, policemen, police stations, military headquarters, army headquarters, army bases, now suddenly we are told to attack civilian targets? Did that not indicate to you that there was a change in the policy of APLA? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: Are you saying you simply accepted the order and you saw no difference in attacking civilians as opposed to policemen or military personnel? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR SHICEKA CHAIRPERSON Well, that was the question and perhaps that was the answer you should simply have given from the beginning. MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: CHAIRPERSON Sorry, no Mr Prior, that is not a fair statement put to the witness. ADV PRIOR: As the Committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON He never exercised his discretion to move away from the prescribed target. He never exercised his discretion to move away from the target which was prescribed by the instructions. ADV PRIOR: Well with respect Mr Chairman, on his evidence the restaurant was the primary target, they went there ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ADV PRIOR: It seems from his evidence that he did - that a discretion must have been exercised not to attack because there was a risk to the safety in the vicinty, surely that is a discretion. CHAIRPERSON Well suppose they had attacked and injured a lot of black people, would that have been in line with the instructions? ADV PRIOR: CHAIRPERSON ADV PRIOR: Was the - let me put it this way, let me refer you to paragraphs 17 of your statement, I beg your pardon, paragraph 15 at page 5. You said: "Occasionally Tanda went out to check possible targets in town. One day he came back saying we can attack a restaurant. After he had selected a target he left with two other africans whose names are not known to me, to find a car for the operation" You then discuss how you organised yourselves and how a vehicle ws obtained and then you come to paragraph 17 where you say: "We arrived in town and went to the restaurant but there was too much movement outside the restaurant" You make no mention that there was danger to african people, of them possible getting injured, in your statement. Can you explain that? MR SHICEKA ADV PRIOR: