amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-02-11 PIETERMARITZBURG https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54842&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pmb/malevu3.htm CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior? ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to proceed? ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, it is the 11th of February 1998, we continue with the matter for amnesty on Mr Malevu, Tanda and Shiceka. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Before we proceed with the next applicant, can we go back to Mr Tanda? You are still under oath Mr Tanda. F W TANDA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Where did you live then, at the time of the incident? MR TANDA It was at Maskopase, New Castle. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I’ve forgot to put on my earphone, I didn’t hear the answer as a result. Will you repeat it please? MR TANDA I was staying at Maskopase, a township in Newcastle. CHAIRPERSON Was that your home? MR TANDA It wasn’t my home, it was a home for one of the PAC members. CHAIRPERSON No, I wanted to know where you ordinarily lived? I know for you to carry out an attack in Newcastle you had to be in Newcastle, I wanted to know where you ordinarily otherwise lived. MR TANDA My home is at Moleteno in the Eastern Cape. CHAIRPERSON The purpose of coming to Newcastle was specifically to come and carry out that kind of operation? MR TANDA That’s correct. CHAIRPERSON Anybody with questions flowing from that? Mr Prior? ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I have no questions flowing from that but if I may be permitted to ask one question concerning the aspect of infiltration and I tell the Committee why. It’s because ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON No, you don’t have to tell us. ADV PRIOR: As the Committee pleases. Mr Tanda, I omitted to ask you yesterday on this aspect. During other hearings, St James and particularly the Heidelberg Tavern attack which occurred in December of ‘93, there was a strong suggestion made by various victims and other witnesses that APLA in planning these attacks, had been infiltrated by the security forces, whether that was the security branch of the police or military intelligence of the army. Were you aware or did you hear anything like that especially in respect of your own operation in Newcastle? MR TANDA I haven’t. ADV PRIOR: You indicated to the Committee yesterday that you were responsible for the security of the operation, code names were used, vehicles that couldn’t be traced back to you were used and so forth, yet you were arrested the very next day after the operation and it seems that within a few hours the police had recovered the weapons, the ammunition, where you had stayed was pointed out, the people that you had contact with were all arrested within a few hours of the actual operation. Did that cause you to believe that you had been infiltrated and that information had been passed to the police prior to your arrest? MR TANDA I would not bind myself to say that police had information before we were arrested or after we had been arrested. But however, what I know is that during the interrogation one of our brothers by the name of Buthalezi went out to point out firearms and other things. I don’t want to accuse anybody at the present moment, for example saying so and so is working for the white people. I didn’t have time to look for such information. ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR UNKNOWN I’ve got no questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Tanda. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE Thank you Mr Chairman, learned members of the Committee. Can I call on Andele Shiceka to be sworn in to give evidence Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes, how do you pronounce yourself, Mr Shiceka? MR SHICEKA Sorry? CHAIRPERSON You are Mr Shiceka? MR SHICEKA Yes. ANDELE SHICEKA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Arendse? MR ARENDSE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shiceka, you were convicted by the Criminal Court in May of last year, of 1994. Mr Shiceka, you were convicted in May of 1994 of murder, attempted murder, unlawful possession of machine guns and unlawful possession of grenades and you were sentenced to an effective term of imprisonment of 25 years, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE Is it also correct that you are applying for amnesty in respect of all these offences which you were convicted of? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE These offences flow from the incident at the Crazy Beat Disco on the 14th of February 1994. MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE When you and your co-applicant, Walter Tanda entered the Crazy Beat Disco and fired ammunition into the disco from your automatic rifles, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE Now, Mr Chairman, if I could refer to pages 41, in fact Mr Chairman, 38, 39 and 41 of the record. Mr Shiceka, you gave evidence at the criminal trial, is that right? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE Now I’m referring to page 38 of the Judgement. The Court says that you denied that you were involved in the events at the disco. The Court went on to say that you alone of the accused admitted that you were a member of APLA and that you were in fact in Newcastle about the business of APLA at the time that this incident took place. Do you remember that? MR SHICEKA Yes, I do remember. MR ARENDSE Now today in your amnesty application before the Committee you are now admitting, confessing to your involvement in the Crazy Beat Disco killing, is that right? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE So at Court you weren’t being truthful when you denied being involved in the incident? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE Is it correct however that you are a member of APLA? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE When did you become a member of APLA? MR SHICEKA It was 1989. MR ARENDSE 1989? Did you receive any training and if so, where did you receive that training? Was it inside the country, outside the country? MR SHICEKA Outside the country. MR ARENDSE Were you involved in any APLA incidents before the Newcastle incident, before the 14th of February 1994? MR SHICEKA Yes, there were other operations in which I was involved. Yes, I was involved in some operations. MR ARENDSE Have you applied for amnesty in respect of those operations? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE Now just before we get to the incident, just some personal details. How old are you now? MR SHICEKA I’m 28 years old. MR ARENDSE Are you married? MR SHICEKA No married. MR SHICEKA I have no children. MR ARENDSE Where you ordinarily reside? Where do you hail from? MR SHICEKA In Cape Town, Guguletu, 72 number 11. MR ARENDSE Were you born in Cape Town? MR SHICEKA Yes. MR ARENDSE Did you go to school? MR SHICEKA Yes. MR ARENDSE Did you finish school or did you leave school before you could finish school? MR SHICEKA I did finish school. MR ARENDSE Where did you go to school? INTERPRETER I’m sorry, excuse me, the mike was off. CHAIRPERSON When does one finish school? Shouldn’t you ask him up to what standard he attended school? MR ARENDSE Thank you Mr Chairman. I didn’t get the translation though. MR SHICEKA I went up to standard 10. MR ARENDSE Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shiceka, you heard your co-applicant Mr Tanda testify that he was introduced to you at Umtata, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE And he was introduced to you by Umzala Power Jones, one and the same person, is that right? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE Is it at that meeting - and that would have been in January of 1994, is that right? MR SHICEKA That’s right. MR ARENDSE Would it be at that meeting where you were introduced to each other, that you were told about the Newcastle operation? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE Were you told specifically what you were to do in Newcastle and how you were to go about doing it? Were you given any detailed plan by Umzala? MR SHICEKA Yes, he did give us details, that’s correct. MR ARENDSE Can you tell us about those details? MR SHICEKA In the meeting that we had with him together with Tanda, he told us that we should go to Newcastle. When we arrived in Newcastle we have attack places where we can find white people. MR ARENDSE Were you given any other details? MR SHICEKA No. MR ARENDSE You were also - you then travelled from Umtata to Newcastle and there were four of you, you and Tanda, Sitenbele and Funani, is that right? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE And according to Tanda he was appointed commander of that unit? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE And on the night of the attack it was the four of you together with the driver Dube, who carried out the attack on the crazy beat disco, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That’s correct, however we were five together with Dube. MR ARENDSE Yes, that’s right. Now, who decided on attacking the Crazy Beat Disco? MR SHICEKA The decision was taken by Tanda. MR ARENDSE Yes? MR SHICEKA The reason was because two targets were selected, a restaurant and the Crazy Beat Disco, if we failed to attack one we had the option to attack the other one, either the restaurant or the Crazy Beat. The person who selected the Crazy Beat Disco it Tanda because he’s the one who did the recognises. MR ARENDSE Can you tell us why the restaurant and the disco were identified as targets to be attacked? MR SHICEKA It is because it’s a place where you normally find white people in numbers. MR ARENDSE Did you see that for yourself, that there were - as you put it, white people in numbers and the restaurant and at the disco? MR SHICEKA The times I will go to the place in Tanda’s company and I’ve seen when going to town that it was frequented by white people. As his deputy I had to know what kind of place we are going to carry out the operation. MR ARENDSE Why did you not attack the restaurant? MR SHICEKA The reason why we didn’t attack the restaurant was because there were many african people on the streets and we realised that if we start attacking the restaurant some african people might be injured, therefore Tanda decided that since - if we start attacking this place people may get injured and therefore we should avoid it and then we went straight to the Crazy Beat. MR ARENDSE Can you provide us with reasons why the decision was taken that the target should be where you find whites: "in large numbers", as you put it? MR SHICEKA I won’t be able to know because we were given an order, an order which was coming from the Transkei which said that we should go and attack white people. I think that’s the main reason why we ended up attacking the Crazy Beat Disco, because it’s a place where white people normally frequent. MR ARENDSE I ask the question because it would appear from your various amnesty applications that you have applied for amnesty in respect of attacks on for example, police stations, army bases and so on and they would appear to be what you can call: "hard targets" and what’s also been referred to as: "legitimate targets". Now there seems to be a shift from attacking those: "hard targets" to what is referred to as: "soft or civilian targets" where there are people involved, ordinary civilians presumably innocent civilians. Can you explain whether there was in fact that shift? Were you aware that there was that shift in strategy? MR SHICEKA I personally, I’m a soldier, I had to carry some orders from my seniors. As to the question of whether we were shifting from one target to another target, I’m not part of the decision making in such APLA operations. I’m only given instructions to attack. Whether APLA was shifting from defence force and South African Police, I won’t be able to answer that. I think our seniors are the people, the relevant people who can answer that questions. I personally had to carry the orders as it was given. MR ARENDSE Did you not question the order? MR SHICEKA During my training I was taught that you don’t question an order or instruction. If you are a disciplinary member of the army you have to carry out the instruction as it’s given. After carrying out the operation you can ask questions. Therefore it means that if I defy an order I’m causing a mutiny within the ranks army and a mutiny in something that’s not wanted in any army situation. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, causing what? Mutiny or meeting? MR SHICEKA Mutiny. UNKNOWN I think he said mutiny. MR ARENDSE Have you ever defied an order given to you by your commander or someone in the APLA high command? MR SHICEKA I never defied any orders since from the time I joined the army. MR ARENDSE Do you know of any of your comrades in the APLA army who defied an order and if so, what happened to that person? MR SHICEKA What I know is, for example if you had a small dagga it’s not allowed and if you’re seeing doing so you’re out of the principle of the army therefore the commander has to punish you. Those were the petty things that I saw people getting punished for them. For example they will take off your clothes and let you crawl and put you in the mud and water to bring you back to your senses. Those are the petty things that I’ve seen as I’ve said. For example, when you’re drinking a lot or smoking dagga. Those are the things that I saw. MR ARENDSE And these forms of discipline which you describe to us, did you see that here in this country or did it happen outside of the borders? MR SHICEKA It was outside the borders. I haven’t seen that with in the country. MR ARENDSE Is that while you were staying in camps? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE Now the arms and ammunition which was used during the attack, where did that come from? MR SHICEKA I don’t have an understanding to that regard. I think comrade Malevu said they were in Transkei but I don’t know how they came to be in Newcastle. I was that ammunition is already available in Newcastle, I don’t know how it was carried to Newcastle. I wasn’t told that answer with Bongani. They told me that I’ll find arms in Newcastle. MR ARENDSE And did you find the arms in Newcastle, you obviously did. Where did you find the arms and ammunitions and the grenades? MR SHICEKA At Miki. MR ARENDSE At Miki’s house? MR SHICEKA That’s Miki’s house, yes. MR ARENDSE Did you take all the arms and ammunition with you in the car that evening? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE The car that you used during the attack was a Cressida, we know that and that Cressida was high-jacked. Were you part of the group that high-jacked the car? MR SHICEKA I wasn’t. MR ARENDSE Were you waiting at that time at Miki’s house for ...[intervention] MR SHICEKA I wasn’t in Miki’s house. We’re not staying at Miki’s house, we were staying in Skumbuza Shomba’s house. It was an ...[indistinct] as Maskopazin. MR ARENDSE Now, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Who is Miki? MR SHICEKA Miki was one of our contacts. As comrade Malevu was in Sweden we had to arrive at Miki’s place. MR ARENDSE Thank you. Now, when you were in the Cressida and you went towards the target, you went first to the restaurant, is that correct? MR SHICEKA We started at the restaurant. MR ARENDSE And you got out of the car and you actually went to the restaurant, is that right? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE And I take it at the time you went to the restaurant you were not armed? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE Were you the one that came back and reported to Tanda that you don’t think you should attack that target? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. However, the car was not far from the scene of the restaurant. Even the people in the car could see the situation outside. However, I personally went into the restaurant to see what was happening and I realised there were many people around here and I told them that the situation is bad. MR ARENDSE Now we know that the disco was not far from the restaurant, is that right? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE So from the restaurant you moved to the disco? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE And did you go into the disco first or did Tanda go first? MR SHICEKA Tanda went first. He got out of the car to go and look around in the disco, he came back. MR ARENDSE And what did he - did he speak to you, did he tell you anything, did he give you any orders? MR SHICEKA He gave us orders. He said there were white people inside. Tulele and Funani, we ended up being four. I myself and Tanda went to look around at the disco. Tulele and Funani were giving us firing cover. The reason why they had to give us a firing, it was because if ever police come or we are shot from behind, they will be able to cover us while we’re concentrating shooting and the disco. The people who went to shoot at the disco it was my myself and Tanda. MR ARENDSE Now you were also armed or you also had in your possession a grenade, is that right? MR SHICEKA That’s correct, I was armed together with a hand grenade. MR ARENDSE You didn’t use the grenade? MR SHICEKA I didn’t use it. MR ARENDSE Is there any reason why you didn’t use it? MR SHICEKA Yes, there was a reason why I haven’t used the hand grenade because the front door had burglar proofs and we realised that if we throw a hand grenade through the door it can re-bounce, it can hit the burglar proofs and explode next to our vicinity and we might be injured and we never wanted to be injured. That’s the reason why we never used it. MR ARENDSE Can you recall how many times you fired or how many bullets you fired? How much ammunition you used during the attack? MR SHICEKA No, I can’t remember. MR ARENDSE Was it one magazine, two magazines? Did you change magazines, can you recall? MR SHICEKA No. I don’t know whether Tanda did change his, I never changed my magazine. MR ARENDSE How many rounds in one magazine, the rifle that you were using? MR SHICEKA It’s 35. I don’t know how many he loaded into his rifle. I loaded mine full. CHAIRPERSON I would not be surprised if you were not able to remember how many shots you fired but it would surprise me if you were to say to us that you don’t remember whether you changed the magazines, whether you loaded another magazine. I would expect you to can remember that. MR SHICEKA Mr Chairman, I understand what you’re saying. I’m saying at the time of the attack, my magazine carries 35. Each and every person has to load his firearm. I loaded mine to the full, it had 35 rounds. At the time when I was shooting, I don’t know how many rounds I shot. After the shooting I then reloaded my magazine. When we were leaving the house before the attack, going to attack we were responsible for loading our own firearms. Mine was fully loaded. CHAIRPERSON Mr Arendse, I think you must clear that up. MR ARENDSE You should be in a position, because you’re the person that fired the shots, you should be in a position to tell us whether you dispensed with the whole magazine or whether you changed it. If you fired one magazine then it gives us a pretty good idea of how many shots were fired, at least we know it’s not more that 35. And we also know from the ballistic evidence that was given in the trial court which was not challenged, that quite a number of rounds were fired from - that could be seen from the cartridges that was picked up from the scene. Can you assist us there? MR SHICEKA Mr Chairman, I never changed my magazine, I shot, I fired while Tanda was also firing and I never changed my magazine. I didn’t see him changing a magazine. He might answer for himself. I only can say I never changed my magazine. MR ARENDSE Thank you. Now you shot through - how wide was this grill, this door that you were firing through? CHAIRPERSON Is it the width of an ordinary normal door? MR SHICEKA Yes, a normal door. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR ARENDSE Thank you. So you fired through there and you fired quite a number of shots. It resulted in one person being killed and two people being injured. Now, you only learnt that afterwards obviously, that one person was killed, two people were injured. Did you expect more people to be killed or injured? MR SHICEKA We expected many people to die, that’s what we expected. However we heard that only one person was killed and we were surprised. MR ARENDSE Was the disco full? MR SHICEKA I didn’t have that opportunity to look inside into the disco because the person who went to see inside was Tanda and when I went towards the disco I didn’t look around, I just started firing. MR ARENDSE So, given that you expected more people to be killed or injured, did you not regard the operation as a success? MR SHICEKA We didn’t. MR ARENDSE Now you killed Ms Gerbrecht Selomina van Wyk and I understand that at the time she was the mother of four young children. They were been at the time, 14, 10, 13 and 6 at the time. You were obviously not aware of that but now that you know that, how do you feel about what happened that evening and particularly that you killed Ms van Wyk? MR SHICEKA It’s very painful because killing a human being is a very painful experience anywhere in the world and I’m sorry for the family, I’m very sorry. As you’ve already explained that she was a mother, she had children, it will be painful for the children to lose their beloved mother. I’m saying it will be painful for the children to lose their beloved mother and I also say as an individual, if I were to be given a chance I would like to meet the family of the victims - the victims family, the party’s leadership. In my presence I would like to go and ask for forgiveness from the victim’s family. I would like to explain to them the reason why I did the act or committed the act. I will say to them: as a soldier I had no option, I had to carry out the instructions given to me by my seniors. I pity them, I am sorry for them and that’s deep from my heart and nowhere else. I would like to think that if it was me in that situation, how was I going to feel. I know that all that I did was because of politics and I would like to ask forgiveness from the family. MR ARENDSE Now you and your co-applicants, Walter Tanda and Bongani Malevu, you’ve requested of me to ask the Committee -Mr Chairman, to facilitate such a meeting and in fact at the conclusion of the hearing of this matter for the applicants to address Mrs Swart directly, who is a victim and the mother of the late Ms van Wyk. Is that right? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. MR ARENDSE Thank you Mr Chairman, I’ve got no further questions at this stage. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE CHAIRPERSON Mr Prior? ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shiceka, after the attack, is it correct that you all gathered at Buthalezi’s house? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. ADV PRIOR: I want to just follow on from what you said, that the killing of a human being is a - I think in your words or in the summary of your words, was a very serious matter. MR SHICEKA That’s correct. ADV PRIOR: And if I understand your evidence that you’ve given this morning, you didn’t particularly enjoy - if I can use that expression, shooting as you did but you were simply carrying out an order that you received from your superiors which was given in the context of the political struggle, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. ADV PRIOR: I want to draw your attention to what the Judge, Mr Justice Hugo said at your trial - and I refer to pages 38 and 39 of Exhibit A Mr Chairman, at the bottom of page 38. Sorry, before I lead on with that, is it correct that at the trial you denied being part of the attack, you said you had not partaken or not participated in the attack of the disco, is that correct? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. ADV PRIOR: The Judge commented as follows in summarising your evidence "He was awakened in the early hours of the morning by the sound of voices and he joined a number of people in the dinning room of Buthalezi’s house where they were drinking beer" Is that correct? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. ADV PRIOR: Did you also drink beer with the others? MR SHICEKA That’s correct. ADV PRIOR: I get the impression that [End of Tape A - no follow on sound] MR SHICEKA Buthalezi’s is the kind the house where we would normally sit. Even during the day we would sit around and drink beer. ADV PRIOR: No, you woke up, you were woken, you said to the Judge or the Court you were sleeping, you got up but now we know that’s not true. When you got back after the operation you started drinking beer. I want to know, was that a form of celebration to celebrate the attack? What was the reason for drinking beer at that time? CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Prior, I’m going to interrupt you there because your question is based on the assumption that the very sentence that "we drank beer" is correct, whereas we know that he told a lot of lies to the Judge. Maybe we should first find out, even if that portion is the truth. ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will. Mr Shiceka, as Mr Chairman has pointed out, did you in fact drink beer? MR SHICEKA As I’ve already explained, we drink in that place. We did drink beer. CHAIRPERSON No, listen to this sentence. The Judge says you joined a number of people in the dining room of Buthalezi’s house where you were drinking in the early hours of the morning, is that true? MR SHICEKA No, I wasn’t telling the truth before the Judge, I was lying, I was trying to run away from the conviction. ADV PRIOR: Yes, but in truth and in fact, was been consumed when you got back to Buthalezi’s house after the attack? MR SHICEKA We didn’t drink. ADV PRIOR: So there was no celebration at Buthalezi’s house? MR SHICEKA We didn’t celebrate, we would stand on guard during the night, we didn’t drink. ADV PRIOR: Did you tell the Court that you were the senior officer of APLA in Newcastle at the time? Mr Chairman, I refer to page 40 of the bundle, Exhibit A. MR SHICEKA That’s correct. ADV PRIOR: Was that true or not true? MR SHICEKA It wasn’t the truth. ADV PRIOR: Were you also running away from a conviction or maybe I can ask you this question, why did you say that during your trial, that you were the senior officer of APLA in Newcastle area? MR SHICEKA I was trying to avoid a situation in this way. It’s because I have to convince the Judge that I didn’t go there to conduct operations but just to train PAC members. That’s the difference in Newcastle since there were some faction fights within political organisations at that time in the township. Therefore I was trying to run away from the allegation that I was involved in the case. ADV PRIOR: Tell me, Power, you indicted in your statement which was unsigned but it’s been referred to, you said "Power told me at Umtata" Mr Chairman, at page 4 of Mr Shiceka’s statement. "Power told me at Umtata that we must meet at a certain house and told me to prepare for a trip to Newcastle" Now Power, did you ever see him, have you ever seen him after the attack whilst you were in prison? MR SHICEKA We didn’t. ADV PRIOR: You indicated in your evidence that the decisions or the decision to attack white target, in other words white civilians was a political decision, something over which you had no control. MR SHICEKA That’s correct. ADV PRIOR: Now over the past four years whilst you’ve been in prison, have you made any enquiries from the political leaders of the PAC or the military leaders of APLA regarding that position, as to whether that in fact was the true position at the time? MR SHICEKA I think in my application form at the bottom there is the name of Leklapa Pathlele who was the director of operations of APLA. CHAIRPERSON What about it? ADV PRIOR: Sorry, is that at page 5? Unfortunately he doesn’t have - can we just show the applicant, Mr Shiceka the bundle Mr ...[indistinct], there’s a spare bundle. CHAIRPERSON Page? ADV PRIOR: I think he’s referring to page 5 of his application Mr Chairman. First of all, if you could just confirm that that is your application? Is that your application? MR SHICEKA Yes, it is. ADV PRIOR: And at page 5 you mention under paragraph 11(b) "Under whose" Sorry, the pages are hitting the microphone which is very sensitive. Could you just move the document away, thank you. "Under whose approval or order was the attack carried out"? You referred to: "Comrade Umzala who issued the order to take the war to the white areas and to destroy the state machinery" Is that the person Leklapa Pathlele that you referred to? MR SHICEKA This is Umzala from Transkei, the man who gave us the instruction to go and attack in Newcastle. When or while I was in prison, people who came to visit me to help me with the amnesty application was a member of the parliament, comrade Sizani. The second one who came to visit me in Worcester is Leklapa Pathlele. Therefore I think comrade Sizani, the MP in Cape Town is the one who put through my application. I thought the one which was before the Commission is the one that was put through Leklapa Pathlele because he also did an application on my behalf. This is the one I’m referring to where below where it’s written Commissioner of Oaths, as it was written by R K Sizani, Member of Parliament. He’s the first person who came to me while I was Pollsmoor prison in 1994. Thereafter comrade Leklapa Pathlele, director of operations came later. Therefore I thought the application before the Commission was signed by Leklapa Pathlele. However it was the one by comrade Sizane in 1994. ADV PRIOR: Yes sorry, you seem to have missed the question. The question is simply, did you ever make enquiries from any of the leadership who you now confirm came to see you in prison, whether that in fact was the policy at the time, to take the struggle into the white areas and to attack white target? MR SHICEKA Do you mean while I was in prison? I don’t understand you. ADV PRIOR: While you were in prison because up until that stage you had no contact, on your evidence, that you had contact with either leadership of the PAC or of the high command of APLA. You were simply acting on what Umzala or Power had told you in Umtata? MR SHICEKA When they came to me we never discussed anything, they only helped me with the application. ADV PRIOR: Were you aware - sorry, did you attend the conference of the PAC at Umtata during December of 1993? MR SHICEKA I didn’t. ADV PRIOR: Would you agree then, that attacking white civilians was a departure from the normal targets that had been attacked by APLA in the past? MR SHICEKA I will not be in a position to comment on that point because the people who took decisions were the seniors. We as foot soldiers, we had to carry out orders. ADV PRIOR: Yes, I understand that but your counsel also put to you that there seemed to be a change on the nature of the targets that APLA were now concentrating on. You as a soldier, were you not able to even formulate that in your mind that: in the we were attacking military targets, policemen, police stations, military headquarters, army headquarters, army bases, now suddenly we are told to attack civilian targets? Did that not indicate to you that there was a change in the policy of APLA? MR SHICEKA I can’t say I realised any change there. ADV PRIOR: Are you saying you simply accepted the order and you saw no difference in attacking civilians as opposed to policemen or military personnel? MR SHICEKA Sir, I am a soldier, I don’t question instructions from my seniors, if they instruct me to do a particular thing I do it. ADV PRIOR: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON That is not the question. You are a soldier but even soldiers can think surely, whether asking you is - is it not so that in the past your targets were police and other security forces? Now did you not, when you were asked to carry out this operation, did you not realise that: O, now we are shifting from attacking security forces, we are now attacking civilians? The question is not whether you - the question is not why you didn’t ask that, the question is, did you not yourself, as somebody who has passed standard 10, did you not realise that: O, we are now shifting from attacking strictly only security forces, we’re now attacking civilians? Did you not notice that? That is the question. MR SHICEKA Mr Chairman, the attack on white civilians is not a new thing, when you look back at the history of PAC, the formation of Polko on the 11th of September 1961, if you remember the attacks at Mbashe, Paarl and Komane, those comrades of those days were members of the PAC which was converted into APLA. They were attacking white civilians during those days, even history confirms that. Therefore I find it difficult for me when one of the panel members says we’re shifting as to our targets. Instead of attacking security forces, we were attacking white civilians which I refer to as: "soft targets". Farmers were also attired before the attacks on Gold Gloves and St James and other attacks. That’s the reason why I say I am confused when they say we have shifted in constitution targets because this started long ago. CHAIRPERSON Well, that was the question and perhaps that was the answer you should simply have given from the beginning. MR SHICEKA Mr Chairman, I didn’t understand before. ADV PRIOR: Mr Shiceka, what I’m essentially driving at is that despite your evidence that you were a soldier simply carrying out instructions, it would seem on the very eveing of the Newcastle attack, you excersied a discretion, a discretion not to attack the reastaurant which had been selected as a target. You decided against that because you said african people in the vicinty may have been injured. You assessed that risk and you decided nevertheless not to attack the restaurant and you went elsewhere. Isn’t that so, isn’t that true? MR SHICEKA That’s not true. ADV PRIOR: But that was your evidence Mr Shiceka. Are you saying that you didn’t ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, no Mr Prior, that is not a fair statement put to the witness. ADV PRIOR: As the Committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON He never exercised his discretion to move away from the prescribed target. He never exercised his discretion to move away from the target which was prescribed by the instructions. ADV PRIOR: Well with respect Mr Chairman, on his evidence the restaurant was the primary target, they went there ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Provided it will only be whites and that’s very important. ADV PRIOR: It seems from his evidence that he did - that a discretion must have been exercised not to attack because there was a risk to the safety in the vicinty, surely that is a discretion. CHAIRPERSON Well suppose they had attacked and injured a lot of black people, would that have been in line with the instructions? ADV PRIOR: I take your point. I’m simply trying to highlight, and will argue later, that that didn’t seem to be the case in other examples of APLA attacks. CHAIRPERSON I’m trying to say to you, the discretion, if that is a discretion at all that you are referring to, did not allow him to attack anything other than white people. ADV PRIOR: I take your point Mr Chairman, I’ll move on. Was the - let me put it this way, let me refer you to paragraphs 17 of your statement, I beg your pardon, paragraph 15 at page 5. You said: "Occasionally Tanda went out to check possible targets in town. One day he came back saying we can attack a restaurant. After he had selected a target he left with two other africans whose names are not known to me, to find a car for the operation" You then discuss how you organised yourselves and how a vehicle ws obtained and then you come to paragraph 17 where you say: "We arrived in town and went to the restaurant but there was too much movement outside the restaurant" You make no mention that there was danger to african people, of them possible getting injured, in your statement. Can you explain that? MR SHICEKA In front of the disco - two flats away from the disco there is a bar which is for black people and that’s where people normally go to drink and it was at night and there were many people on the streets and we realised that if we carry out the operations and people started retaliating, many black people would be injured and that will not be in line with our aim, that’s what I said. ADV PRIOR: Yes, I understand that. The question is directed at what stands in your statement, what appears in your statement. Are you able to explain why what you’ve just told us, does not appear in your statement?