amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-08-01 PIETERMARITZBURG 5 MR BHEKI F MBUYAZI 346/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54844&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pmb/mbuyazi.htm CHAIRPERSON This is the application for amnesty of B F Mbuyazi, application number 346/96. The Committee hearing it is myself Andrew Wilson, Mrs Khampepe and Mr Potgieter. MR WILLS MR MPSHE J M Mpshe for the Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr Mpshe. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, application of B F Mbuyazi, the applicant he is here and the victims are here Mr Chairman. May I explain first before I hand over to my learned friend concerning the victims Mr Chairman. I was in contact with those who are herein present today, all the gentlemen seated in front except one asking about the absence of the female witnesses who gave evidence at the trial Elsie and Nomsa in particular and the response I got is that they had a meeting at home and since it is very far it was decided that the gentlemen, that is, the male folk should be here to represent the families because they travelled a distance of eight hundred and seventy kilometres coming this way. Those who are present are Dumisani Mthembu who is the husband to Filani Mthembu, no the husband to Ida Mthembu as well as the son Tufelo Mthembu who is deceased and then we have again Alfious Komete who is the son to Evelyn Dlamini, so all four, all three deceased are represented by the male folk. CHAIRPERSON So, I understand the women mentioned have notice of the hearing and have elected not to be present. MR MPSHE That is so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Should it become necessary to hear their evidence then arrangements will have to be made. MR MPSHE Yes Mr Chairman, without jumping too soon, after having read the record which, the transcript which I received this morning I am of a strong view, very, very strong that the evidence of the two women would really be necessary to rebut whatever may be told but I discussed this with my learned friend that perhaps we may start with the Applicant, finish his evidence and let them close the case and then we postpone it so that I secure the presence of the women, particularly Elsie. CHAIRPERSON I think that could be done fairly because there is a Judgement which refers to the evidence the women have given so you can put MR WILLS Yes Mr Chairperson, I think we must get the application commenced but in the spirit of facilitating the truth, I will not oppose any postponement should Mr Mpshe require to call the women folk who were at the scene. MR MPSHE I hand over to my learned friend Mr Chairman, thank you. BHEKI F MBUYAZI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee I call the Applicant. MRS KHAMPEPE Mr Mbuyazi, will you please stand up so you may take an oath. May you stand up please. MR WILLS Thank you. Mr Mbuyazi, you are here today because you are applying for amnesty in respect of a matter for which you have been convicted in the Supreme Court. You were convicted on the 23rd of September 1991, do you recall that? MR MBUYAZI Yes, I remember. MR WILLS Is it correct that in this court case you were convicted of three murders and one assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm and one assault common. MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Mr Mbuyazi, is it correct that you are applying for amnesty in respect of these matters here today? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Mr Mbuyazi, how old were you at the time these offences were committed? MR MBUYAZI I was eighteen. MR WILLS And how old are you now? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Now, is it correct that as a consequence of your conviction in these matters you were sentenced to an effective term of twenty four years imprisonment? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS And is it also correct that you have been in prison at Waterval Prison since the date of the Judgement that is, in September 1991? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Now some six years at this stage. Mr Mbuyazi, how do you feel about the incident or the killing of these women? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS And how do you - have you got anything to say to the victims that are present here today? MR MBUYAZI Yes. MR WILLS Can you say that? They hear, this is an open hearing. MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON What do you mean when you say you did not intend to kill someone? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON You do admit that you stabbed all three woman and that you killed them? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON That you stabbed them repeatedly? MR MBUYAZI Yes, I repeatedly stabbed them. CHAIRPERSON In very vital areas, through the heart, through the brain, do you agree? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON MR MBUYAZI They produced a knife that I used, in court. CHAIRPERSON We have before us the admissions made on his behalf at his trial as Exhibit G, page 16 of the papers. It is quite clear the correctness of those reports was admitted. MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI Yes, I do understand. MR WILLS Now after you made an application for amnesty, in fact fairly recently you wrote a letter to the Chairperson of the Amnesty Committee on the 23rd of July, dated the 23rd of July 1997 from prison whereby you withdrew your amnesty application. Is it correct that you still want to proceed with this amnesty application? MR MBUYAZI Yes, I wish to continue with my application for amnesty. MR WILLS Why did you write this letter? MR MBUYAZI I was afraid that maybe if I appear before the Commission my family relatives might be attacked. MR WILLS Family relatives? Right Mr Mbuyazi, what ...(intervention) MRS KHAMPEPE Sorry Mr Wills, can we just take it up with him? Why do you think that your family relatives would be attacked by your appearance before the Truth Commission? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON How long has that been the position? MR MBUYAZI Will you please repeat the question for me? CHAIRPERSON How long has it been an unsafe area, for how long? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON MR MBUYAZI Yes, I was informed. CHAIRPERSON MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI I am an ANC member. MR WILLS When did you join the ANC? MR MBUYAZI I joined the ANC in 1989. MR WILLS Why did you join the ANC? MR MBUYAZI The reason why I joined the ANC was because of my elder brother who encouraged me to join the ANC and I personally thought it was necessary that I should join the ANC because it was fighting for the liberation of the people. MR WILLS This elder brother you refer to, can you tell the Committee what his name is? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Now was Patrick Mbuyazi a prominent ANC member in your area? MR MBUYAZI Yes. MR WILLS Now prior to us going into the actual incident itself, I want you to tell me what it was like being an ANC member in that particular area where you resided? MR MBUYAZI In my area in that time it was very difficult for a person to join the ANC because the whole area was controlled by the IFP. MR WILLS So what happened if you were an ANC member? When you say it was difficult, what do you mean? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Do you know the name of the chief who presided over that area? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS And do you remember what political affiliation he had? MR MBUYAZI All the people are - the indunas were IFP. MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Did he do anything to prevent the forced, forcing people to go to meetings of any particular party? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Did you yourself attend any IFP meetings? MR MBUYAZI I never attended even a single meeting of the IFP. MR WILLS What happened to you as a result of that? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS When you say trouble, what do you mean? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Can you give the Committee details of these attacks? MR MBUYAZI I was attacked three times. On two of those attacks, no one was in - two of them no one was injured. MR WILLS I just want you to expand, when you say you were attacked what do you mean, were you personally attacked or was your kraal attacked, what was the position? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Yes but where did these attacks take place, where were you when the attacks took place? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS So, are you implying that the attacks were directed against your home? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI MR MBUYAZI Was there any damage or injury to any person or damage to any property or anything on that occasion? MR MBUYAZI At that time no damage was done. MR WILLS The second attack, can you give the Committee details as regards that incident? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Were your parents threatened in any way? INTERPRETER Please repeat the question. MR WILLS Sorry. Were your parents threatened in any way? MR MBUYAZI Yes, they were threatened because they were intimidated to convert us to be IFP members. MR WILLS The parents you refer to, is your father Mapweka Mbuyazi and your mother Maria Mbuyazi? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI Yes. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Is this really relevant to the respect of this application, the details of these attacks, are they explaining why he killed three women aged sixty two, sixty five and twenty? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON He retaliated because he had been injured - revenge. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes Judge, I will deal with those statements in due course - I am aware of that, thank you. Mr Mbuyazi the third attack, what occurred then? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Do you know who was responsible for this attack? MR MBUYAZI Yes, I knew the people who were attacking us. MR WILLS Will you tell the Committee? MR MBUYAZI The people who were attacking us were IFP members. In them there was Mzana, Mr Mthembu. MR WILLS Now what did you do as a result of this attack? MR MBUYAZI After that together with my father, we went to report the matter to the police. MR WILLS Which police? MR MBUYAZI Kwa Zulu police. MR WILLS At which police station? MR MBUYAZI At Kangwana police station. MR WILLS What happened as a result of that report? MR MBUYAZI No attempt was made by the police, they just came to collect the corpses and they did nothing after that. MR WILLS Then what did you do further, after that? MR MBUYAZI After that we decided that we should attack our attackers. MR WILLS Why did you make that decision? MR MBUYAZI It was because we realised that if we sit back and do nothing, we fold our hands we might be attacked again. MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Did you tell the police the names of the persons who were responsible for the attack on your home? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Why not? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON How did you expect them to do anything if you did not tell them the people you knew had attacked you? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS No tell us, who were the ANC members with you? MR MBUYAZI It was myself, Sipho Gomede, Tulani Mthembu and Sebusiso. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR WILLS Yes certainly, I have them here. It is Tulani Mthembu, Sipho Gomede and a certain Sebusiso. Is it correct that you cannot remember the surname of Sebusiso? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Now whose kraal did you attack? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS This is the same Mthembu who you referred to earlier who was present in the attack on your kraal, is that correct? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Now tell us what happened during that attack, what time did you leave your house and tell us the circumstances how you killed these people? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON Who left home? I want to know precisely who went with you. MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS So did you say Mr Mthembu ran away? MR MBUYAZI Yes, he managed to escape. MR WILLS Now were there other males at the kraal at the time? MR MBUYAZI He was alone at his home. MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI Yes, they were in. MR WILLS Now tell us, how did you kill these women? MR MBUYAZI I killed these women with a knife. One of them that I killed died right inside the house wearing an IFP T-shirt and we tried to run after the others by the help of Tulani and the other comrades, we ran and we outran them and we caught them and I stabbed them. CHAIRPERSON So the other comrades who were with you, the three people you have named participated in the killing of these women, the women would have seen them? Is that what you are telling us? MR MBUYAZI These women were killed by my hand. The comrades who were in my company only helped me to run until we reached and caught them and then I killed them. CHAIRPERSON MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Now why did you kill these women? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON Where is the alleged confession? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes. CHAIRPERSON And that it his plea to the charges when they were put to him. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And his explanation about not giving all relevant facts might be somewhat different if it was a confession or a plea. This is the plea he was giving the Magistrate. MR WILLS Yes, I apologize for the use of that terminology. Sorry Mr Mbuyazi, you pleaded to the Magistrate and you indicated that this incident occurred as a result of you defending yourself over some fight of a radio, very loosely, can you explain why you said that to the Magistrate? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON MR MBUYAZI Will you please repeat that for me? CHAIRPERSON MR MBUYAZI Xhosa, no translation. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER It was yes, I remember that. MR WILLS Also Mr Mbuyazi, I have the opportunity this morning of going through the judgement that Mr Justice Broom gave at your trial and as I say, it appears from that judgement that the motivation or the circumstances surrounding your attack on these women do not appear to be related to a general attack on the kraal at all, what do you say about that? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Now if these women are to come and testify before this Committee and say that the motivation, your motivation for the attack was for a personal gain where you wanted a reward for finding a radio, what will you say about the evidence? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON But before the Magistrate you said that, that she would give you an amount of money for finding the radio and she went to her bedroom to fetch it, do you remember telling the Magistrate that? MR MBUYAZI I remember saying that before the Magistrate but that was not true. CHAIRPERSON And that was before the woman had given evidence. MR MBUYAZI May you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON MR MBUYAZI One of them came and gave evidence in court. MR WILLS Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE friend? MR MBUYAZI Yes, I remember. MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI Nobody compelled me to write the letter. MR MPSHE Was the contents of the letter been suggested to you by somebody? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE And when you were writing this letter you understood yourself very well? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE What is on the letter was written by him and he was told by yourself? MR MBUYAZI Yes, I said to him in Zulu and he translated and wrote the letter in English. MR MPSHE And you can read English not so? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE Before signing, you signed it yourself not so and wrote your prison number? MR MBUYAZI MR WILLS ...(inaudible) MR MPSHE ...(inaudible) Is that where you wrote, the last line? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON If you look at his application for amnesty at page 3 which is apparently signed by him, it does not appear to be the same signature. MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI Yes, I do remember that. MR MPSHE What did you mean by this statement - I do not qualify to be a political prisoner? MR MBUYAZI I wrote that because I wanted them to withdraw my application in order for me not to appear before the Commission. MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI I said that because I wanted them to withdraw my application. MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE And you were saying in your letter that it is not the case in your matter? MR MBUYAZI MRS KHAMPEPE MR MBUYAZI The reason why I included those words is because I was trying to make sure that the particular person that was going to receive the letter will read the letter and also withdraw my application after reading such words. MRS KHAMPEPE MR MBUYAZI MRS KHAMPEPE Thank you. MR MPSHE You testified that you wrote this letter amongst others because you were afraid that your family relatives would be attacked, do you remember that? MR MBUYAZI Yes, that is correct. MR MPSHE Now when did you get the feeling or when did you start becoming afraid that your family relatives would be attacked? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE Respond to my question, when did you get the feeling that your family relatives would be attacked, when was that? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE Did you get any information upon your arrest that your family was being attacked? INTERPRETER Please repeat the question? MR MPSHE Did you get any information upon your arrest that your family was being attacked? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE Now after your trial and conviction and sentence, did you get any information that your family was being attacked? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE You were convicted and sentenced in September 1991, am I correct? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE Now in 1992, the whole of 1992, did you get the feeling that your family would be attacked? MR MBUYAZI Yes, I had such feelings because I know the very recent area where I come from. MR MPSHE In 1993? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI Excuse me? INTERPRETER MR MPSHE INTERPRETER Relief. MR MPSHE In 1991 - in 1992 you say since your conviction - 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996 you had this feeling but you decided to put it on paper in 1997 July, can you explain that? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE And perhaps they - your feeling of being afraid got stronger in July 1997, after six years? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE MRS KHAMPEPE Mr Mpshe before you leave that one, may I just take it further? Did I hear you properly when you say that no-one has visited you in prison ever since you were arrested, does that include your parents and your close relatives? MR MBUYAZI MRS KHAMPEPE Do you know where your parents are presently, whether they are still at Thembe? MR MBUYAZI MRS KHAMPEPE MR MBUYAZI MRS KHAMPEPE MR MBUYAZI MRS KHAMPEPE So where is your basis for your fear then? MR MBUYAZI Because I knew the situation which I left behind after my arrest, it was between life and death at the time I was arrested. MRS KHAMPEPE MR MBUYAZI As I say now, that even now I still have that fear of not knowing where they are, whether they are still alive or not. MRS KHAMPEPE Now assist me to understand why even if your family was still at Thembe, why should you feel that they would be attacked merely by you appearing before this Committee? MR MBUYAZI They could be attacked on the political basis because of the situation during that time. MRS KHAMPEPE No, but why should you that they would be attacked by your appearance before this Committee today which prompted you to write this letter on the 23rd of July? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI It happened during August. MR MPSHE They year please. MR MBUYAZI 1990. MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE At the first attacked testified to by yourself, were any of these woman present? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI MRS KHAMPEPE Are you in fact saying there were no women during that attack? I think it would be quite an important distinction not seeing or knowing that there were no women. MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON MR MBUYAZI Yes, there were no women. MR MPSHE On attack number one, were you present when this was done? MR MBUYAZI Yes, I was around. When I saw them coming I tried to run away. MR MPSHE Attack number two, were you present? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE On the three alleged attacks, was anything done on you, were you confronted, were you attacked, were you manhandled, was anything done to you? MR MBUYAZI During the third attack I managed to run away. MR MPSHE Please if you could understand my question, respond to my question. Were you manhandled, were you assaulted or anything done to you on any of the three attacks, physically? MR MBUYAZI In all these attacks I managed to escape and run away because I was always vigilant during these attacks. MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI Yes. MR MPSHE And this comes from your application form, do you remember that? MR MBUYAZI Yes, I do remember that. MR MPSHE Now what do you mean when you say two times they tried to assassinate you, what was done to say they tried to assassinate you? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE Were you present when this was said to your parents? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE And when your parents told you, did they say this was an attack - are they going to talk to them? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE So from that what your parents told you, you made up an attack. MR MBUYAZI I would say they were attacking because if they did find me as a person they were looking for they would have killed me. CHAIRPERSON MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE Now you testified that the people who attacked amongst others it was Mthembu, who else was there other than Mthembu? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE How many were there approximately? MR MBUYAZI There were more than ten. CHAIRPERSON How old is Mr Mthembu? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON The husband of the late Lakufu Mthembu? MR MBUYAZI I think so, he is the husband. CHAIRPERSON Her age was given as fifty, approximately fifty. MR MPSHE When after the third attack did you decide to attack back? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE Now I want to know precisely when after this last attack did you four decide to go and attack, two days later, a week later, a month later, a year later? MR MBUYAZI It was after the attack and only one day elapsed and we decided to go and attack. MR MPSHE Now who was the leader of your group, the four of them which is a group? MR MBUYAZI Our leader, it was my brother Patrick who passed away. MR MPSHE Is Patrick not your brother who was killed and thereafter you decided to attack? MR MBUYAZI MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON How were the other three armed? MR MBUYAZI They were armed with axes. MRS KHAMPEPE All three of them? MR MBUYAZI Yes. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, I know it is quarter past eleven - I still have some few questions to ask. If the Committee would like ...(inaudible) an adjournment? CHAIRPERSON And the weapon you had was a sharpened iron rod, is that correct? MR MBUYAZI COMMITTEE ADJOURNS . ON RESUMPTION BHEKI F. MBUYAZI (s.u.o) MR WILLS ...(inaudible) of Advocate Mpshe. I consulted with the Applicant on the basis of the veracity of both his instructions to myself and the evidence which he put before the Commission. The Applicant admitted that his evidence and his instructions are not in fact the truth and as a result he has decided at this stage that he wishes to withdraw his application. Further I might add that whilst this is the case, he still feels a great CHAIRPERSON Thank you. He realises that this withdrawal is permanent? MR WILLS He realises that the withdrawal is permanent Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbuyazi, have you heard what your council has just said? MR MBUYAZI Yes, I heard him. CHAIRPERSON And it is correct that you are now withdrawing your application for amnesty, a permanent withdrawal? MR MBUYAZI CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairman. MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE MR MBUYAZI Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON tasks, thank you all very much. We will now adjourn. COMMITEE ADJOURNS