amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-07-29 PIETERMARITZBURG 2 SIPHO W MOTAUNG 3902/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54846&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pmb/motaung.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, the application, sorry. For the record, this is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee to hear the applications of Mr S W Motaung, Mr N G Sibisi, Mr J M Sithole and Mr B P Dlamini. The Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson, of Mrs Sisi Khampepe and Mr Denzil Potgieter. Gentlemen, will you please put yourselves on record? MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairman, committee members. My name is John Wills. I represent all applicants. MR MIRANDA Mr Chairman, committee members, my name is Colas Miranda. I represent the victim's family. ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, members of the committee, J M Mpshe representing the TRC, particularly the Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, I see that there are, there is application for four persons set down before us today, but that there are only three people present. Could you perhaps explain. ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, that is so. The fourth person, B P Dlamini, is today not present due to the information that he may have received yesterday that the police, the SAPS, want him, they want to arrest him. I can put it on record that they were here yesterday. I had a talk with them in the afternoon and informed them that they have got to be here today to connect with the legal representative of Dlamini. That is the reason why he is not here, I believe. CHAIRPERSON So it would appear his absence is not exactly voluntary. Subject to what anyone may have to say, it seems to me that in those circumstances one should adjourn his application, but that it may not be necessary to have a separate hearing in the event of a decision being arrived at with the other three. It may well be subject to anything his representatives may have to say. It is possible to make a similar order in respect of him. MR WILLS Yes, Mr Chairman, I am respectfully in agreement with that position. I confirm what Advocate Mpshe has indicated, it does appear from the information I have received from the other applicants, that the reason for the failure of the fourth applicant to appear today is that he was threatened with arrest at this hearing, but as regards the adjournment of the application, I confirm that I, from his point of view it is in his interest and I would submit that that is in order. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Does anyone else wish to say anything in regard to the question of adjourning the application of Dlamini? MR MIRANDA Mr Chairman, committee members, the opinion of my clients, the victim's family, is that they would like this matter finalised today. So, they have no objection to this matter being adjourned and they have no objection to abiding by the decision of the committee in relation to these three also being implemented to the fourth person who is not here today. Thank you. ADV MPSHE I will then, Mr Chairman, hand over to my learned friend, Mr John Wills, to lead the first applicant. I believe it will be Motaung. MR WILLS Mr Chairman, may they be sworn in? Mr Motaung. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Motaung. Your full names please. MR MOTAUNG Sipho W Motaung SIPHO W MOTAUNG (Duly sworn in, states). MS KHAMPEPE The witness has been sworn in. EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairman, committee members. Mr Motaung, you are applying for amnesty in respect of what matters? MR MOTAUNG It is in connection with a murder and also escape, escaping from prison after the case was concluded. MR WILLS Excuse me, if you could just bear me with Mr Chairman. I am just trying to get this apparatus working. Mr Motaung, you made an affidavit in support of an amnesty application in regard to these matters on the 3rd of December 1996. Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit? MR MOTAUNG Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON That is the affidavit which is at page ten of the record? MR WILLS That is correct Mr Chairman. Mr Motaung, can you tell me about how you got involved with the ANC? MR MOTAUNG I joined the ANC, because I was not satisfied by the former Government's policies. The regime at that, time it was a regime which oppressed the people. For example, I use to see police terrorising the people or harassing the people and it was so difficult for us to bear this. Sometimes the police will harass us. They even harassed my father. MR WILLS: What was your father's name? MR MOTAUNG It is Walter Motaung. He was Walter Motaung. MR WILLS Is it correct that you eventually joined Umkhonto we Sizwe? MR MOTAUNG That is correct, I joined the ANC's armed wing. MR WILLS Can you tell the committee the circumstances leading up to you joining Umkhonto we Sizwe and a little bit about the training you received in relation thereto. MR MOTAUNG I joined the ANC's armed wing in 1984 and I went to exile. I came back to work underground in South Africa operating the guerilla warfare. MR WILLS Did you receive training inside or outside the country in regard to this period? MR MOTAUNG I got training outside the country. I went to Swaziland, Zambia, Tanzania. MR WILLS How did you cross the South African borders in this regard? MR MOTAUNG I skipped through the Pongola, I crossed the Pongola River. MR WILLS Do I take it that you did not, in fact, go through a formal customs post? MR MOTAUNG That is correct. I did not skip the country, I did not get out of the country lawfully. MR WILLS When you returned to South Africa after having been trained, you have mentioned that there were certain people who were in the organisation that you worked with. Can you give the committee the names of these people? MR MOTAUNG The person that I met was Rita, Mandla and Sipho. MR WILLS Do you know the full names of these people and, if so, please give the committee the details thereof. MR MOTAUNG I have a problem, because the two of them, Rita and Mandla, I only know them by their names. I do not know their surnames. MR WILLS And what about Sipho? MR MOTAUNG He was Sipho Maloko. MR WILLS Is that spelt M O L O K O? MR MOTAUNG It is Maloko, M A L O K O. MR WILLS These people, were they, how did they fit into the structures? Were they senior to you or junior to you or were they just ordinary members of the ANC or were they members of the, were they also members of Umkhonto we Sizwe? MR MOTAUNG They were MK members and they were seniors. MR WILLS At any stage, did you conduct the training in respect of any other persons in, did you train any other persons in respect of military activities? MR MOTAUNG Please may you repeat your question. Please may you repeat your question. MR WILLS At any stage did you, were you involved in the training of other persons in regard to military matters? MR MOTAUNG Yes. MR WILLS Can you give ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills, I do not want to interfere in any way with the leading of evidence, but looking at the affidavit it appears there is a three year period that we have jumped, that this took place not on his, as I understand the affidavit, not on his return to the country, but after he came out of prison in 1988, if you look at paragraph 12. Is that so? MR WILLS Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So we now talk about 1988, not his earlier return? MR WILLS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I do not think you need to go into it, because it sets out fully in the affidavit, but just to get the record straight that we have jumped three years. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. Alright, Mr Motaung, I want to concentrate now on the first crime in respect of which you are applying for amnesty and that is the murder of Lolo Lombo on the 31st of October 1990. MR MOTAUNG May you please repeat the question for me. MR WILLS No, it is not a question. I am just telling you now that I am wanting to concentrate, in the next few minutes, on the actual murder of Lolo Lombo in October 1990. Okay. MR MOTAUNG What would you like me to explain. MR WILLS Okay, if you could just tell the committee, in as much detail as you can remember, what your involvement was in that matter. MR MOTAUNG Okay. My involvement in that particular case, Mandla and Rita came to me and they told me that there is a mission which has to be carried out and I accompanied them. They first pointed the person to me and then I went to Sibisi Nhlanhla. I asked him to be involved in the mission. Therefore, we left to carry out that mission. We entered the Joshua Doore. That is where we found him and we shot him. MR WILLS The Nhlanhla you refer to is that Mr Sibisi, the second applicant? MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR WILLS Were there, I want you go into a little bit more detail than that. I want you to tell the committee exactly what happened prior to the incident occurring, the planning that was made, the way that you were transported to and from the scene up to the point of your arrest. CHAIRPERSON Is any of this in dispute? I am asking the other, not you. Mr Mpshe, do you dispute any of this version as set out in the affidavit? ADV MPSHE No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you? MR MIRANDA No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So you would not object to Mr Wills leading his witness on these points? MR MIRANDA No, Mr Chairman. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That is on the factual aspect, not, there maybe some dispute as to precisely what each person was responsible for, but the fact of how they travelled and things of that nature ... MR WILLS Yes. CHAIRPERSON ... you are not disputing. MR WILLS Is it correct that prior to this operation Rita and Mandla came to your home and that they told you that they wanted this particular person, Arnold Lolo Lombo, assassinated as he was an IFP warlord? MR MOTAUNG That is correct. He was an IFP member and he was also considered a warlord who had killed a lot of ANC members. MR WILLS Is it correct that together with Rita and Mandla on the 30th of October you went to Sibisi's house, picked him up and then you met other people at Henley Dan just outside of Edendale? MR MOTAUNG Yes, that is correct. That is what happened. MR WILLS Who gave you the firearms in order to conduct the mission? MR MOTAUNG We got the arms from Mandla. There were two 9mm. One was given to me and the other one to Sibisi. MR WILLS Do you remember getting into a combi and being driven by two other persons into town in order to conduct the mission? MR MOTAUNG Yes, I remember. MR WILLS Do you remember who was driving the car and who the other person in the car was? MR MOTAUNG It was Johnny Sithole and Kokleese Dlamini. Phineus, I mean Phineus Dlamini. I only knew their name after we arrested. MR WILLS Right, those two persons you have, obviously, come to know subsequent to this. Those are the third and the fourth applicants in respect of this matter. Is that correct? MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR WILLS Yes, they drove you down to town and you indicated that it was just you and Mr Sibisi who actually carried out the hit. Is that correct? MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR WILLS Can you tell the committee who actually shot Mr Lombo? MR MOTAUNG It is Nhlanhla Sibisi, shot him. MR WILLS Do you know how many shots were used in this hit, how many shots were fired? MR MOTAUNG One shot. MR WILLS Did you know from what range the shot was fired? MR MOTAUNG It was at point blank range. MR WILLS From the evidence you have given it appears to me clearly that you were in common purpose with Mr Sibisi to conduct this hit. You also wanted to kill Mr Lombo, in other words. MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR WILLS You then ran out the shot and shortly thereafter the four of you were arrested in a combi outside of the Alexandria Road Police Station. Is that correct. MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR WILLS Now, do you know why Mr Lombo was killed? MR MOTAUNG Yes, I know. MR WILLS Can you tell the committee. MR MOTAUNG I would say that he killed a lot of ANC members and he harassed a lot of people and he was always in company of the police. We thought maybe he had licence to kill the way he use to kill people. That is the reason why we quickly decided that we should eliminate him and we thought that was a right thing to do, to eliminate him, because he was harassing the community. CHAIRPERSON When you say "harassing the community" do you mean everybody in the community or was he harassing the ANC people? MR MOTAUNG I am referring particularly to the ANC. MR WILLS You were then arrested and held in custody for some time, having been refused bail. You then escaped from custody. Can you give the committee the details as regards to this escape. MR MOTAUNG In prison I use to have visitors, people like Mandla. One of those days I discussed with them. It was clear that we are not going to get bail. We did not get bail. Therefore, I personally planned, I decided that I shall break my finger so that they can take me to hospital. I knew that they do not have bone doctors in prison. I knew when I broke my finger they will take me to hospital outside. That happened. It so happened that I call Mandla before, the day before I was to be taken to hospital. I broke my finger. We needed to have a password, LOD, that is life or dead. I knew that someone was coming to pick me up. We also arranged for transport and if someone had to come and collect me they have to use the password. When I arrive at Eden Hospital, I asked to enter the toilet. I entered the toilet. When I got out of the toilet I pushed one of the police aside and he fall and I started running. I got into the car. After someone have passed using the very same password that I knew, I got into that car and we ran away in the car. They took me to J Section at Mbali. That is where I stayed the night and I went to Durban in one of the ANC members home. Therefore, after that our regiments were met that I should go to Chesterville. That is where I found Sibisi and other comrades. I stayed there. Later I left with some cadres, three of them, those whom I found at Chesterville. They left us at the border where we had to cross. They were given money for food. We were told that we have to get some transport to Mazanie in Swaziland. We went to Mbabane and they took us to some houses where they accommodate refugees. After that they took us to Matsape Airport and we flew to Zambia. MR WILLS Did you later end up in the ANC Mgagao military base in Aringa region, Tanzania? MR MOTAUNG May you please repeat your question. MR WILLS Did you later end up at the ANC military base, Mgagao, that is M G A G A O, in Aringa region in Tanzania? MR MOTAUNG Yes, that is where I ended up, Aringa region in Tanzania. That is where I was trained. MR WILLS And I take it that you continued with your military training at this place and returned to South Africa after the democratic elections in April 1994? MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR WILLS You were then integrated into the South African National Defence Force and you remained there until your arrest in respect of this matter. MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR WILLS Just, what rank did you have when you were in the Defence Force? MR MOTAUNG I was a Lieutenant. MR WILLS Now, at the time you made this application, at the time you made this application you were in custody. Is that not so and you later secured the bail and you are now out on bail in respect of these charges? Is that correct MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR WILLS Now that the elections have come, how do you feel about the death of Mr Lombo? MR MOTAUNG I will say that what happened, have happened. However, I would like to say that I would like to ask forgiveness from his family. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson, committee members. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS ADV MPSHE Mr Motaung, who was in charge of this operation? MR MOTAUNG Mandla was in charge. ADV MPSHE Before you could go out with the other three was there any meeting held by your organisation to discuss and plan this operation? MR MOTAUNG I think Mandla, as a Commander, he might have discussed the operation with other people whom I do not know. It was that it was an underground operation. ADV MPSHE Were you not one of the leaders in the area at the time? If I remember in your affidavit you stated that you would bring people to train and you even put some of them under your command. MR MOTAUNG That is correct. ADV MPSHE Now can you explain why you could, why you were not involved or summoned by Mandla to that meeting wherein this whole thing was being planned? MR MOTAUNG I would say I just took an order which was given to me, because I thought they have thoroughly discussed the issue. I just only took the order from them. ADV MPSHE You mean you took the order to take the life of a human being just on what you thought could have been done? MR MOTAUNG Yes, that is correct. The way they have explained to me, I thought there is a valid reason to do it. ADV MPSHE What was Mandla's actual position? MR MOTAUNG He was a Commander. I am not sure exactly, but he was a trained Commander. ADV MPSHE Now, who was the local Chair of the ANC in that area at the time? MR MOTAUNG I do not remember well. ADV MPSHE Had you ever attended an ANC meeting in the area before the carrying out of this operation, as a Commander that is? MR MOTAUNG Yes, I use to attend meetings, the Youth League meetings and the meetings for the organisation. ADV MPSHE Now, who was the Chair at those meetings? Who was chairing those meetings? MR MOTAUNG It was Lamon Ngabie. ADV MPSHE This area where, this area of Edendale, did you live in that area yourself? MR MOTAUNG I was born in that area. ADV MPSHE Did you know the deceased, Lombo, yourself, personally? MR MOTAUNG I only knew him after he was pointed to me during the carrying out of the mission. ADV MPSHE Now, I am going to refer to your affidavit, a certain portion of your affidavit, page 15 of the papers, paragraph 19 thereof, the second line. I will read for convenience of the witness. "On 27th October 1990 Rita and Mandla came to my home and informed me that they wanted me to carry out a mission. They told me that there was an IFP warlord by the name of Arnold Lolo Lombo who was active against the ANC.". MR MOTAUNG That is correct. ADV MPSHE Now, you were told by these people and you went out and carried out this operation. MR MOTAUNG Yes, I was told and they first went to point the person to me and I saw the person on that time. ADV MPSHE Are you telling this committee that on what you were told, without yourself, as a Commander, ascertaining the facts and whether it is actually this person was what he was said to be, you went out and killed him, on hearsay? MR MOTAUNG Yes, I just took what they told me, because I trusted them. I knew that they will not tell me some trivial stories. ADV MPSHE In your evidence, further, you testified to the effect that Lombo had killed many, a lot of ANC members. He thought he had a licence to kill, he was harassing the community. Can you tell us the people that he may have killed that you know? MR MOTAUNG I knew two people whom he killed. ADV MPSHE Who are they? MR MOTAUNG One of them is Bongani, Bongani Bopela. The other one was Themba who died there. ADV MPSHE And these, I believe, you were also told? MR MOTAUNG Yes, I was told by people who were present at that, at the scene. ADV MPSHE Now, the people you first mentioned, Rita, Mandla and Sipho Maloko, what are they doing? MR MOTAUNG Sipho Maloko has been killed by the gangsters in the security forces. He has passed away. Rita and Mandla, I have last seen them long ago. I do not know where they are. I last saw them when coming back from exile, 1994. 1995, I am sorry. ADV MPSHE Now, you went out to carry out this operation. By killing Lombo, in your own mind, what did you seek to achieve? MR MOTAUNG I did not have anything in mind to achieve. However, I intended to kill him, because if we went, when we went to the police to report issues which might have occurred to the ANC people, police did not take that into mind. So, I thought it is proper and justifiable to kill him, because the police could not do their job. ADV MPSHE Do I hear you to be saying that you killed him in order to make the police respond to your reports to them? What I am driving at, what was the reason of killing him? What was behind all this? MR MOTAUNG It was because he harassed a lot of ANC people, he killed a lot of them. So, we decided we shall remove him, eliminate him. CHAIRPERSON Had complaints been laid with the police about his behaviour, do you know? MR MOTAUNG Yes, a lot of people have given reports to the police. CHAIRPERSON And did anything happen as a result of those reports? MR MOTAUNG Nothing happened. ADV MPSHE Was any report being made to the higher authorities of the police about this? MR MOTAUNG I did not do it personally, but Mandla told me other people have given a report. ADV MPSHE No further questions, Mr Chairman. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Mr Miranda. MR MIRANDA Thank you Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MIRANDA MR MIRANDA These people that informed you about Lombo's attacks on ANC members, exactly what did they say to you? MR MOTAUNG They told me he is a warlord. Most of the time people were forced to join Inkatha and those who were not Inkatha members will be beaten. Since I was not staying over the hill or above, so I heard it from other people telling me about it. MR MIRANDA What did they tell you? MR MOTAUNG Mandla use to give, brief me about the situation, because he use to stay at that area. So, he use to come and tell us about what is happening and also the activities of this man. MR MIRANDA Was Lombo, sorry Mr Chairperson. Was Lombo, when he was shot, was he facing you and talking to you? MR MOTAUNG That is correct. I got into the store and took him out. I told him I was investigating a particular case and that I was a policeman. I told Sibisi that when I open the docket, Sibisi shall shot him and we have to make sure that when he got shot, nobody, no bystanders will be shot at and that is what happened, with one bullet and he fall on the ground and we left the scene in a hurry. MR MIRANDA How far away were you, how far? MR MOTAUNG We were so close, as I said, he shot him point blank. MR MIRANDA And what injuries did he sustain that you could see? MR MOTAUNG We did not have time to see what might have happened, because we were in a hurry to escape. MR MIRANDA And when Sibisi shot Lombo, was Sibisi standing behind Lombo? MR MOTAUNG Why talking to him holding the docket, Sibisi came from my back. I told Sibisi that when I open the docket, the person, while the person is looking at the docket he shall shot at him. MR MIRANDA Was Sibisi behind you or behind Mr Lombo when he shot Mr Lombo? MR MOTAUNG He was between me and Mr Lombo. MR MIRANDA So, when Mr Sibisi fired the shot he could see, Lombo could see what was going to happen? MR MOTAUNG He did not see that we were shooting at him. That is how I perceive it. MR MIRANDA And do you know why Dlamini was asked to come with you in the combi to Joshua Doore? MR MOTAUNG The reason behind that was that they had to transport us to town. MR MIRANDA The other thing that you mentioned in your affidavit is that when you left Joshua Doore, just after killing Lombo, shots were fired at yourselves. Who fired these shots? MR MOTAUNG Sibisi. MR MIRANDA Who did he shoot at? MR MOTAUNG He was shooting at Lombo. MR MIRANDA So, how many times did Sibisi shoot Lombo? MR MOTAUNG Once. MR MIRANDA But, let me just go back to what I stated earlier. MS KHAMPEPE May I just interrupt you, Mr Miranda, because I am a little confused. I think we have here at paragraph 23, I do not know whether you were referring to that, but who fired shot as they were living the shop. MR MIRANDA Yes, I am referring to paragraph 23. MS KHAMPEPE I just want to ask Mr Motaung in that regard. In your affidavit you have stated that "other persons" and I would like to assume, and I need your correction in that regard, that by "other persons" you mean people other than Mr Dlamini and those who were in and Mr Sibisi. The "other persons" that you have referred to in this paragraph would be people other than Mr Dlamini and Mr Sibisi? Is that not so. MR MOTAUNG May you please repeat the question. I did not get it very well. MS KHAMPEPE In your affidavit you have stated that when you were leaving Joshua Doore after Mr Lombo had been shot by Mr Sibisi, "other persons" fired shots at you and Mr Sibisi and that is why you had to change your plan, but Mr Miranda has put a question to you and that question was, who fired the shots at you when you were leaving the shop and you said it was Mr Sibisi and Mr Dlamini. MR MOTAUNG We just heard shots fired. We thought maybe it was just people around there who were shooting. We do not know whether they were police or not. MR MIRANDA Thank you. If the plan was that you would escape in the VW Golf, why was the combi still hanging around in the area? MR MOTAUNG We ran into the combi and escaped. We used the combi. At Berger Street we jumped into the combi after the operation and left. MR MIRANDA Where was the VW Golf when this incident occurred? MR MOTAUNG It was parked in one of the parking areas. MR MIRANDA Was this parking area the area where customers can park to shop at Joshua Doore. MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR MIRANDA And who was in the VW Golf? MR MOTAUNG It was Rita and Mandla. MR MIRANDA And if I understand your evidence correctly, the combi was parked in Berger Street. MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR MIRANDA So, if you were in trouble, why did you not jump into the VW Jetta, VW Golf if it was parked just outside Joshua Doore. MR MOTAUNG It was a bit far. So we decided that people should not see where we have hid the car which we will use as a runaway car. MR MIRANDA Would you have applied for amnesty if you were not recharged for this offence by the Criminal Court? MR MOTAUNG Yes, I would have asked for amnesty, because I need to ask for amnesty even if they did not charge me. MR MIRANDA No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MIRANDA ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, with your permission, I just want to clarify something with the witness, with the Chairs permission. CHAIRPERSON Just to clarify. ADV MPSHE Thank you. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADVOCATE MPSHE ADV MPSHE Mr Motaung, when you were asked about the position inside the shop, I recollect you responded that Sibisi was between yourself and Lombo. Do you remember that? MR MOTAUNG Yes, I said he was between me and Lombo at the time when we shot him, but we were not standing direct on a straight line. He was, he came from behind me and shot at him. ADV MPSHE Now, how were you standing or how were you walking or standing in relation to Sibisi, I mean to Lombo? Were you walking behind him or side by side? MR MOTAUNG I was on the other side of Lombo. ADV MPSHE And Sibisi came from behind? MR MOTAUNG Yes, he came from behind and that is when I started opening the docket or file and when he started looking at the docket, Sibisi shot at him. That is what we discussed. I told him as soon as he looks at the docket he should shoot him. CHAIRPERSON He said Sibisi came from behind. Did he come from behind you or from behind Lombo? MR MOTAUNG Behind Lombo. ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. Then I am covered. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE MPSHE CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on). MR WILLS Just two quick points, thank you Mr Chair, Mr Chairperson. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS MR WILLS As I understand it Mr Lombo was shot in the back of the head by Sibisi. Is that what you recall? CHAIRPERSON That does not accord with the post mortem. MR WILLS Well, sorry, I was a bit vague, Mr Chairperson, my understanding of the post mortem is the top of the neck. CHAIRPERSON If you look at page 79, the bullet passed forward, slightly downward ... INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON The bullet passed forward and slightly down through wound number one which was the wound on the lower lip, between the base of the skull and cervical one vertebrae, fractured cervical one vertebrae, lacerated the spinal cord and exited on wound number two, which is the wound in the right lower occiput. MR WILLS Yes, I withdraw that question, Mr Chairperson. I am sorry. Last question, Mr Motaung. Dlamini and Sithole, they were waiting in the combi. Is that correct? MR MOTAUNG That is correct. MR WILLS Thank you. No more re-examination. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS