amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-02-10 PIETERMARITZBURG 1 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54850&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pmb/pmb.htm CHAIRMAN: Before we commence with the proceedings this morning for the benefit of victims, dependents and relatives of victims, I would like to inform them that we have with us two representatives of the RNR Committee, namely Ms Sitanda Msomi and Nomsa Gumede. They are here to render such assistance as they can to the relatives of people who were victims or their dependents. You will find them in the hall if you need their assistance. Mr Brink, is Mr Jassat here? MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I haven't see him. I was looking for him to have a discussion with him, but I haven't seen him. CHAIRMAN Is Mrs Jama present? Does she know whether her attorney is coming this morning? Are we ready to proceed with Mr Madlala now? MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I saw yesterday that the application form of Mr Madlala had been distributed to you. I assisted him in completing it yesterday afternoon during the lunch break and it contains all the basic information necessary. Could I then please ask that Mr Madlala be sworn in. MR MADLALA s s EXAMINATION BY MR BANADE Mr Madlala, is it correct that you are applying for amnesty in the case of the murder on Mr Jama in February 1991? MR MADLALA Yes, that is true. MR BANADE Could you please proceed to give us some of your 1A - 11.2 personal/... MR BANADE 83 MR MADLALA personal background details. Firstly I would like to know from you on which date you were born? MR MADLALA I was born on the 4th June 1965. MR BANADE Where were you born? MR MADLALA I was born in Elandskroon. MR BANADE And how far did you get at school? MR MADLALA I passed my Std 8 in 1983. MR BANADE And what did you do after school, what kind of employment did you take up? MR MADLALA I was working for a certain construction company. We were building houses. MR BANADE During January 1988 you joined the Police Force. Could you just inform us as to the circumstances at the time? MR MADLALA During that time we were staying at Nada, at Chief Shiyabante Zondi's place. Because there was another gentleman known by the name of Lawrence Zuma. During that time Chief Shiyabante Zondi told us that we should join the Police Force. During those days he took us to Maroa House near Edendale. There we were asked details about ourselves and we gave our details and we were all members of the IFP. After that we went back home. We stayed at home for about a week and after a week we were told that we were supposed to go for our training. We left by buses to the training centre. It was in Cape Town at Koeberg. We left by buses. We were all members of the IFP. There was no one belonging to the ANC. When we arrived there we were put in groups and we were taught lots of orders and laws and they explained all of them to us, that if you arrest someone who has broken the law you must do this and this and then afterwards at about past 11 we were taken to march. After two weeks 1A - 11.2 after/... MR BANADE 84 MR MADLALA after we arrived in Cape Town, one member came from Maritzburg from a Security Branch. That member was Mr Webb. Mr Webb came to Cape Town by helicopter. When he arrived there he told us that things were bad at Maritzburg. People were killed and those people were IFP members who were killed. We were shown video tapes and we saw people who were being necklaced by tyres and we saw houses were burnt down and people were killed. We saw all this in a video tape. And all those people who were being killed were IFP members. Then we were told that we were supposed to finish our training soon so that we go back and fight UDF and ANC and we were told that UDF were members of the ANC, or they were sent by ANC that they must overthrow the Government. We were told that we must come back to Pietermaritzburg and kill everyone who belonged to UDF or ANC and we were given guns. We were taught how to shoot and we were taught how to march as well. After six weeks we came back from Cape Town to Maritzburg. When we arrived in Maritzburg we were put at Umbali Railway Hostel. We didn't stay there that long, we were taken to Oriep(?). There was a huge riot station there. That's where we were taken. We arrived there and Captain Eugene Terblanche was the one who welcomed us. He told us that since we were from Cape Town we were supposed to work here in Pietermaritzburg like we were taught in Cape Town. We mustn't be scared of anything and we must harass ANC, and if it comes to a push we must kill them. We mustn't be scared because all those cases were going to be over. He, Mr Terblanche, was going to put those cases aside. And we were allocated to secure IFP prominent people or to safeguard those houses. 1A - 11.2 After/... MR BANADE 85 MR MADLALA After that we were stopped doing that and now we were given police vans. All these things were happening and when we were meeting people who were meeting ANC sheets we were supposed to kill them or to harass them. It was like nothing. Also we were working at Hammersdale and we were killing people there and after a person has been killed, Captain Eugene Terblanche was the one who was there first before anyone could be there. We also worked in Greytown, Richmond, doing the same job. And also here in Maritzburg, also in C-Vale. On the 24th February we received a message that we must go and safeguard a meeting. That was an ANC meeting. It was going to occur at Noshesi area. We took a police van, we went there and at Noshesi. When we arrived there we found supporters of ANC and they were marching and singing, toyi-toyi and we realised that as they were singing and marching they were also naming IFP members and we go angry at that because we were IFP members and we didn't agree with their songs. That's where we started as well toyi-toying and then other people who came to see Mr Harrington, who was the guy who was looking after the group which we were working at. They told him that what we were doing they didn't like it. Mr Harrington told us that we must stop doing that and he told us that the ANC wasn't happy. The meeting went on. After that meeting we left Noshesi, we passed Nateni. When we arrived at Dambuza, just before we arrived at the railway lines, we saw a group of boys. If I am not mistaken they were 15. All those boys who were there they had ANC T-shirts. Some of the T-shirts had just President Mandela's photograph. Some of them Sisulu's. After that I saw a car 1A - 11.2 stop/... MR BANADE 86 MR MADLALA stop and Erasmus got out from that car together with Mr Harrington and they said to us we must go and search those boys. We went, all of us, no one remained at the van. We all went to the boys. We told them to stand up; we started searching them. When we were searching them, the one I was searching, when I asked him his surname he told me he was Mkhize. There was no conflict between me and him because Mbongeni disrupted me. He told others that these policemen, we must shoot them and we must kill them like we killed the IFP people at Shange. When I heard that this boy is saying this, I got angry because I remembered that there were a group of IFP people who were killed at Shange. Now I told Harrington, I said to him, here's this guy now confessing that he's the one who was involved at Mbongeni's killing. Now we realised that he was hard and then Erasmus and Harrington arrested him. They put him at the back of the van. Harrington came with us inside the van, at the back of the van, and we didn't close the back door, and we were ready for any action. When Harrington got at the back of the van we went to Georgetown. When we arrived at Georgetown Mbongeni was busy screaming, asking where he was being taken. Erasmus stopped the van and then he came at the back. He started harassing Mbongeni. He hit Mbongeni. He told Mbongeni to keep quiet. After that he asked us what we wanted to do or where we wanted to go. We explained to him that it was now late and we were about to go back home. It was fine for him if he can take us back home and take others who were supposed to go to work. That's what he did. When we left Georgetown we were still with Mr Harrington. He wasn't at the front, he was in the back. 1A - 11.2 He/... MR BANADE 87 MR MADLALA He started choking Mbongeni by his belt. At that time the van was mobile and we were busy asking him, are you the one who wants to kill us, the IFP members, why do you want to kill us? There were only a few people who didn't know that we were IFP members, even though we were special constables. We travelled and Mr Jama was being assaulted, Harrington was choking him using his belt. That's where I saw a diary. This diary had names. Names of the people, IFP members. There was a name Mbalazi Vezi. Mbalazi Vezi according to my knowledge was an IFP prominent member at Richmond. And there were also names of the houses which were supposed to be burnt. At that time Harrington was asking what was on the diary, was asking Mr Dhlamini, who was another member who was arrested together with me, even though he has now been released. What I cannot tell you is that I don't know what happened to the diary eventually, because I was sitting at the back of the van and I was holding the door. We arrived to Elandskop. We stopped somewhere at Elandskop at Gqwanamu near the bottle store. That bottle store belonged to Mr Gqinamu. Harrington and Mr Erasmus and Mr Dhlamini, they got off the van. Immediately after they got off Mr Jama tried to grab the gun from Mr Dhlamini. He couldn't and Mr Harrington caught him. When he caught him he came with him back to the van and we put him at the back of the van alone; we closed the back of the van. Erasmus now told us that he was thirsty, he needed something to drink, something cold. We told them that we didn't have money, but we can go and buy cooldrink for them at Mr Bengu's store. We took the van; we left them there. Mr Dhlamini was also there at the back of the 1A - 11.2 van/... MR BANADE 88 MR MADLALA van. We went to the shop, we took the drink, we came back. We travelled about 2kms from the bottle store to the area where we left Harrington and Mr Erasmus. When we got back we gave them the cooldrink. At that moment Mr Erasmus said we must kill Mr Jama. As he was saying this, all of us police constables, we wanted to kill Mr Jama because Mr Jama was an ANC man and also he confessed that he was there when IFP members were killed. So we all agreed that he must be killed. No one refused or denied that. All of us, we agreed that he must be killed. And then Mr Bengu said he is going to show us the place where we can kill Mr Jama so that they don't discover his body soon. We got into the van. Mr Bengu and Mr Erasmus got in at the front of the van so that he can show Mr Erasmus where to stop where we can kill Mr Jama. We left that bottle store for about 5km and then we turned to a bush nearby. We travelled in the bush and then we stopped somewhere. When we stopped there Mr Harrington took Mr Jama out. When they got outside Jama fell and then he started running. Mr Harrington ran after him. I ran after them too. We were trying to catch Mr Jama, myself and Mr Harrington. That's when Mr Harrington took out his gun and aim at Jama. At that time he wanted to give me the gun that I must shoot Jama. Then Harrington said no, don't be a fool. If you kill this person using this gun when they discover this body they will discover the bullet and they will realise that it was our gun that shot him. Jama ran and Mr Harrington caught him. When he caught him, Mr Harrington had this belt, the one that he was using at the back of the van. Now he caught him where Jama fell 1A - 11.2 and/... MR BANADE 89 MR MADLALA and there were stones and rocks. Jama fell and Mr Harrington fell on top of Jama and then he started choking him using that belt. Later Mr Jama couldn't move at all. Mr Harrington said to Mr Dhlamini, Mr Dhlamini must give me his gun because Mr Dhlamini had a (indistinct) gun and he said to me I must shoot Mr Jama. I told Mr Harrington that no, I can't do that because he is already dead. There is no need for me to shoot him. Mr Harrington said no, it might happen that he is just unconscious and he can regain consciousness and he can name us. That's when I shot Mr Jama. Of course I had this will of killing Mr Jama. Because I wanted him to die as well, to follow those people whom he killed. It was IFP members; that's when I shot him. Mr Harrington took branches from the tree and put those branches on top of Mr Jama's body. We left. Mr Harrington was at the back of the van. He had a branch with him and he was wiping the wheels of the van so that people cannot realise that it has mud. It has been somewhere in the bushes. Mr Harrington got off the back of the car when we got to the main road and when we arrived at the first stop we stopped. That's where I was supposed to get off. Mr Bengu and Mr Dhlamini as well. We got off and Mr Harrington got off and told us that now that we have finished what we have done, we mustn't tell this to anyone. Whatever happened belonged to just us. We've killed this person who did all these things at KwaShane and who is also an ANC member. Then they left, Mr Harrington and Mr Venter. After that we were supposed to be off and we were supposed to go back to work after a day. When we arrived 1A - 11.2 at/... MR BANADE 90 MR MADLALA at work that it wasn't all of us, and I didn't even think that maybe some of them were arrested and we went to David's house in Church Street, Maritzburg and they told me that we killed someone and I denied that at first because I didn't know at that time that there was any of us who has been arrested and I denied everything. Then they showed me a statement and they told me that there's a statement. Erasmus has already made a statement. When I saw the statement that's when I realised that Mr Erasmus and Mr Harrington are now pushing the case to me. Now they are shifting everything to me. That's when I gave the police statement, another statement. Even though those two statements were looking similar, but they were not the same until we appeared in court and we were sentenced. When we were sentenced my sentence and Mr Harrington's sentence was the same sentence, eight years, eight years, and Mr Erasmus was six years. We went to prison. (COMMENCEMENT OF TAPE 1B ) ... sentence has now gone up. Mine is now 12 years and Mr Harrington is 18, Erasmus is now 12. That was the end. MR BANADE Mr Madlala, just one last question. I would just like to hear from you if you knew Mr Jama in a personal capacity? MR MADLALA No. I only met Mr Jama on that day when he told us that he was involved in the killings of Inkatha people. MR BANADE Mr Chairman, that is then the evidence in chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BANADE MR BRINK Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, this witness will be questioned by Ms Thabethe. CROSS-EXAMINED BY MS THABETHE 1B - 11.2 CROSS MS THABETHE 91 MR MADLALA CROSS-EXAMINED BY MS THABETHE Mr Madlala, when you were told that you are supposed to go and safeguard the ANC meeting when you knew that you were IFP members, you didn't refuse to go there. MR MADLALA No, we didn't because our job was to safeguard, we were supposed to safeguard every area. MS THABETHE But you were told that if you see ANC people you must kill them or harass them. So in other words, when you left for that meeting you knew that you were going to harass them. MR MADLALA There was no purpose at all. But if we had a chance we were going to use that chance. And also we were making sure that if we were doing all this harassment and killing we were not doing them in front of everyone. MS THABETHE How many were you in the van after the meeting when you left the meeting? MR MADLALA I think we were eight. MS THABETHE How many were sitting in front of the van? MR MADLALA When we left the meeting only three people were at the front, Frans Erasmus and Mr Harrington and another guy who was white, I don't remember his last name. It was 1-ton van. MS THABETHE When you arrived there and saw this 15 group of boys and where Mr Jama was there, you stopped there and then you decided to search these people. When they were searching Mr Jama, where were you? MR MADLALA I was busy searching the one that I mentioned that he said his name was Mkhize. And then that's when I realised that there was one among them who was Mr Jama and who was very stubborn. MS THABETHE Are you saying you saw Mr Jama refusing to be 1B - 11.2 be/... MS THABETHE 92 MR MADLALA be searched? MR MADLALA According to Mr Erasmus, when he refused to be searched they arrested him. JUDGE WILSON That's not quite correct, isn't it? Wasn't the evidence that he refused to be searched, two constables held him so he could be searched and that he then was searched. MR MADLALA I can't say he didn't refuse because he was stubborn at that time. Even when they arrested him he was really stubborn. He didn't want to go. MS THABETHE When Mr Erasmus was searching Mr Jama you saw this. MR MADLALA As I told you before, I was busy searching Mr Mkhize, but I did see Mr Erasmus searching Mr Jama and I saw that nothing was received from Mr Jama. MS THABETHE When you were at the van, you said you saw a diary. MR MADLALA Yes, that's true. MS THABETHE Where was that diary from? Because you saw them searching Mr Jama and they couldn't find a thing from Mr Jama. MR MADLALA I didn't see where it came from, but I saw the diary in Mr Harrington's hand and I saw a name belonging to an Inkatha member, Mr Vizi and he was an IFP and a very prominent leader. MS THABETHE You were inside the van but you didn't see where the diary came from. MR MADLALA We were many at the back of the van so I couldn't see where it came from. Mr Harrington was busy choking Mr Jama. That's when I started seeing the diary. How he got hold of the diary I don't know, but what I heard 1B - 11.2 is/... MS THABETHE 93 MR MADLALA is that Mr Dhlamini said there is a diary and it is from Mr Jama's pocket and inside the diary there are names belonging to IFP members. MS THABETHE In other words, you didn't see when they were actually searching him, but you just saw the diary. MR MADLALA Yes, I saw the diary being opened by Mr Dhlamini. MS THABETHE When you arrived at the bush you said Mr Harrington told Mr Erasmus that he mustn't shoot. MR MADLALA Yes, that's what I said. Because they were scared that the ballistic tests will reveal that the gun belonged to them, yes. MS THABETHE Why did you shoot him? Were you not scared of the ballistic test? MR MADLALA I knew that if you were using a "pump" gun it wasn't easy for anyone to discover whose gun it was. MS THABETHE In other words, you were not scared while Mr Harrington was scared? JUDGE WILSON ... that leaves marks on the bullet and a pump gun which uses shotgun cartridges which leaves no such marks. MS THABETHE You said when you shot Mr Jama he was already dead, or is this what you are thinking? MR MADLALA I thought even though I am not quite sure, I am not certain, but I thought he was dead. MS THABETHE Then why did you shoot him if you thought he was dead? MR MADLALA I just shot him because we already talked that it might happen he just lost concsciousness, he can regain consciousness. MS THABETHE In other words,you are telling us you also had 1B - 11.2 it/... MS THABETHE 94 MR MADLALA it in your mind that he wasn't dead? MR MADLALA Yes. MS THABETHE Do you know that the doctor who gave the report of the post-mortem said Mr Jama was killed because of the bullet shot? MR MADLALA Yes, I heard that. MS THABETHE One doctor said he broke his Madula Bones. It might happen that when he was shot he was already dead. And then the second doctor said it wasn't true, because if he was killed from a gun why he was broken ... ADV DE JAGER ... you have been convicted of murder. So the court found him guilty. Whether he thought he was dead or not doesn't matter at this stage. He has been convicted and we are dealing with the conviction and his sentence at this stage. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE JUDGE WILSON Mr Madlala, you've told us as I understand your evidence that you don't know what happened to this diary. MR MADLALA Yes, I don't know what happened to the diary. JUDGE WILSON ... sitting at the back of the van holding the door. MR MADLALA That's true. JUDGE WILSON Do you know that Mr Harrington said that you and he threw it out of the door, out of the van? MR MADLALA It is either that he doesn't remember properly, but it is not true. It was himself and Mr Dhlamini who were together at the front. JUDGE WILSON ... in the front of the van was it? MR MADLALA If they threw it we were with them at the back. Probably they threw it through the window and I did not see 1B - 11.2 them/... JUDGE WILSON 95 MR MADLALA them because I was holding the door. JUDGE WILSON Was there only one vehicle involved, the van, there was never a car there? MR MADLALA Yes, it was only one van that we were travelling in at that time, because the other vans had driven off the scene of the meeting, ANC meeting. JUDGE WILSON You said also in your evidence that Mr Jama confessed that he was there when IFP members were killed. You heard Mr Harrington giving evidence didn't you, and he made no mention of Mr Jama saying anything of that sort. MR MADLALA As I have come before Commission to ask for amnesty, I have come to say what happened and I don't even have to think about what happened because I know it for a fact. I told Mr Harrington this is what Mr Jama said. JUDGE WILSON Were you interpreting? MR MADLALA I told Mr Harrington that Jama has just made this statement to the effect that they must kill us in the same manner that they killed the IFP people at KwaShange. That's how I put it when I told Mr Harrington. JUDGE WILSON And you made a statement, you remember, to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. MR MADLALA Yes, I do remember. JUDGE WILSON You told us what happened when Mr Jama was killed. MR MADLALA Yes, I do remember. JUDGE WILSON Why didn't you tell us about Mr Harrington hitting Mr Jama's head against the stone? MR MADLALA It is possible that if I remember well, I think I did mention that. I did make mention that that happened, because even in court I did say that Mr Harrington committed that or did that. 1B - 11.2 JUDGE WILSON: /... JUDGE WILSON 96 MR MADLALA JUDGE WILSON You don't seem to have mentioned it today. MR MADLALA Yes, I said that at the time that he was throttling him, they both fell on top of the rocks and he continued hitting his head on the rocks until such time as Mr Jama was still. JUDGE WILSON You did not say that today, Mr Madlala. MR MADLALA I thought I had made mention of that, that at the time that he was continuing to throttle him with his belt and when he wasn't moving it was after he had hit him on the rocks and at the same time throttling him. JUDGE WILSON How many times did Mr Harrington hit Mr Jama's head against the rocks? MR MADLALA It was quite several times because he kept on throttling him and hitting him against the rock and he kept on lifting him and hitting him against the rock, and at that time Mr Jama was moving until such time that he was still. JUDGE WILSON He was lifting him up and banging his head down against the rocks until he was still? MR MADLALA That is correct. JUDGE WILSON You had been ... that the ANC was no longer an illegal organisation, because you were sent to protect them. MR MADLALA No, at that time we had not been told because had we been told that the ANC had a right to voice itself we wouldn't have gone there, but we were told that we were supposed to go there. We were not told that the ANC had been unbanned. JUDGE WILSON Are you serious about that, Mr Madlala? MR MADLALA I had absolutely no knowledge of that at this time because we didn't even listen to the radio or read 1B - 11.2 newspapers/... JUDGE WILSON 97 MR MADLALA newspapers because we were so busy doing our jobs. JUDGE WILSON And your job was to guard the meeting that was addressed by Mr Harry Gwala. MR MADLALA That is true. JUDGE WILSON You were guarding that meeting weren't you? MR MADLALA That is true. JUDGE WILSON And are you seriously suggesting we should believe that you thought the ANC was an unlawful organisation on that day? MR MADLALA I'll put it this way. It is true that I did not know that the ANC had been unbanned at that time. We were still using the same methods that we were taught and I was still continuing to use the very same methods because at that time I believed what I was doing was right, I knew that the ANC was our enemy. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Madlala, I just want to know which came first. Mr Jama was submitted to quite an extensive search by the special constables, and at the same time he made utterances to the effect that the police had to be killed like the killing which had happened at KwaShange. Now what came first? Was he first submitted to the search and thereafter made utterances about the KwaShange incident? MR MADLALA What took place first of all was that he was searched and he only uttered that at the time that he had already been searched. MS KHAMPEPE To whom were the utterances directed? MR MADLALA He was addressing the people that he was with, that is the group, but he was looking at Mr Mkhizi directly. That's when I heard him saying it because I had just searched Mr Mkhizi at that time and I conveyed the message to Mr Harrington that this person was making these 1B - 11.2 utterances/..,. MS KHAMPEPE 98 MR MADLALA utterances. MS KHAMPEPE If I am not mistaken, I heard Mr Harrington state that he found the diary and he found the diary when him and yourself were searching the deceased whilst he was in the back of the van and that diary was found in the pocket of the T-shirt that the deceased was wearing. MR MADLALA Yes, I would like to explain. When they searched at first they didn't get anything on the body of the deceased. When I first saw the diary it was in the possession of Mr Harrington and Mr Dhlamini and that was inside the van and at that time I didn't touch Mr Jama because I was holding the doors of the van and they were busy harassing, assaulting and doing all sorts of things to Mr Jama. I never even conducted a search. Even the first time, I did not search him. MS KHAMPEPE ... what was contained in the diary, was it Mr Harrington or Mr Dhlamini? MR MADLALA The person who was reading what was inside the diary was Dhlamini because Dhlamini knew the leaders of the IFP because he is also a member of the IFP. MS KHAMPEPE ... what was contained in the diary written on? MR MADLALA The diary was written in Zulu. MS KHAMPEPE So Mr Dhlamini was interpreting the contents of the diary to Mr Harrington. MR MADLALA That is true. Mr Dhlamini was a matriculant, so he did not have a problem speaking to Mr Harrington. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr Madlala. CHAIRMAN Can you tell us why that diary was thrown out of the van? MR MADLALA I wouldn't know. As I had already explained 1B - 11.2 that/... CHAIRMAN 99 MR MADLALA that I did not even see them throwing the diary out of the window and after that I did not continue to ask as to where the diary was. Even when they threw it, maybe Mr Harrington threw it together with Mr Dhlamini because I only saw it when they were having it in their hands. As to where it ended I have no idea. CHAIRMAN When did you learn that the ANC was no longer banned? MR MADLALA I only knew that after the case and it is after quite some time that we had been convicted, that's only when I got wind of the fact that the ANC had been unbanned as well as that other organisations were also unbanned and people could join an organisation of their choice. CHAIRMAN Do I understand you to mean that if you had known on that day that the ANC had been unbanned, you would not have done what you did? MR MADLALA Yes, I could say that I wouldn't go there because I would have known that there were negotiations and people were free to join an organisation of their choice and I believe that Mr Jama could be alive today if I was as clear as I was after the case and that negotiations were taking place and I only knew that after I could read newspapers and listen to the radio to find out what was happening in the outside world. CHAIRMAN To be specific, you would not have taken part in the assault on Mr Jama if you had known at the time that the ANC had been unbanned? MR MADLALA Yes, I can say that, I would not have taken part because all this that took place is because of the indoctrination that we went through especially with regard to the matter of KwaShange massacre, but had I know that now 1B - 11.2 the/... CHAIRMAN 100 MR MADLALA the organisations had been unbanned, I would have realised that at the Police Force we were being used and the aim that they had to fulfil they wanted to use us to fulfil that aim so that there wouldn't be any negotiations. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Madlala, this group of young boys were harassed in the sense that you stopped them and searched them but what I don't understand is, why did it not stop there? Why did you single out the deceased and put him into the van? MR MADLALA There were other people who were searched. I could say not that all of them were searched, because Mr Jama was resisting and he was stubborn, he didn't want to be searched, so I could say that the search didn't continue to the other members of the group. It stopped when Jama was resisting to be searched and attention was focused on him at that point and then especially when he made these utterances that the police should be killed in the very same manner that the IFP was killed. And when I told Mr Harrington I wanted him to know that here is another person who was making an admission. Because it was a usual occurrence for us at the office to talk about ANC members and how to harass them as IFP members. We were always told that we should deal with them accordingly whenever we came across them, especially because we knew that the cases were never dealt with. JUDGE NGOEPE Why was the deceased in particular singled out and put into the van? MR MADLALA I think Jama was taken because he was resisting the search and he was fighting and he made this utterance. I think that's what made him to be singled out. JUDGE NGOEPE Why was he killed? 1B - 11.2 MR MADLALA: /... JUDGE NGOEPE 101 MR MADLALA MR MADLALA He was killed because he was one of the people involved during the IFP massacre. JUDGE NGOEPE Had he not been so involved are you saying that he would not have been killed, according to you? MR MADLALA I wouldn't be positive on that aspect. But when he spoke or uttered these words we were even more aggressive with him and we just wanted to torture, assault and harass him as a member of the ANC, and probably would have released him later on just like the other ANC people. JUDGE NGOEPE The deceased's alleged involvement in the previous killing of the IFP supporters is given such prominent by yourself in your evidence and yet neither Mr Harrington nor Mr Erasmus referred to it ... (CHANGE-OVER TO TAPE 2A) MR MADLALA I think it didn't receive prominent as far as they were concerned because it was something that we always spoke about. Mr Harrington and Erasmus themselves, especially all the people who were inside the van, they knew that we should get the ANC people who committed the massacre or who were involved in the massacre. JUDGE NGOEPE You heard yesterday Mr Harrington said he could not even recall at all you telling him that the deceased says that he was involved in the previous killing of IFP people. MR MADLALA Yes, I did hear him giving testimony. I think it is because it is a long time since it happened, probably he had forgotten. I spoke to him in English. JUDGE NGOEPE With regard to the throttling of the deceased and the banging of his head on the rocks, it happened while all of you were there, isn't it? MR MADLALA Yes, that is true, because from the time that 2A - 11.2 he/... JUDGE NGOEPE 102 MR MADLALA he was taken out - from the time that the van was being driven, Mr Harrington started throttling Jama whilst we were inside the van together with the others who were in the van. They kept on participating in the assault and when we got to the forest we were all standing when Mr Jama was being hit against the rocks. JUDGE NGOEPE I am not sure Mr Erasmus's evidence with regard to the banging of the head is concerned. I am not sure what his evidence was, but would it surprise you if he were to say that he did not see that? MR MADLALA I would agree with Erasmus because immediately after they told him not to shoot or use that gun, it was quite a distance. Erasmus was not near us. He was quite a distance from the scene of the incident. I would agree with you if he says he did not see what had actually happened. JUDGE NGOEPE I thought you said it occurred while all of you were there, which was my previous question. MR MADLALA Yes, we were present at that time, but Erasmus was a distance because he was not involved in quite a lot of harassment. He only slapped him across the face and he sort of distanced himself thereafter. JUDGE WILSON Mr Erasmus's evidence he gave us yesterday talks about wanting to shoot Jama and then says "Harrington en Madlala is agter hom aan. Ons res het hulle toe gevolg", (The rest of us then followed) Which would seem that he was there. MR MADLALA When this happened, when Mbongeni tried to run, when Mr Harrington was trying to get him out of the van that's when Jama tried to stand up and run and that's where Erasmus pulled out his gun. But he did not immediately follow. But Mr Harrington was at the front running after 2A - 11.2 Jama/... JUDGE WILSON 103 MR MADLALA Jama, then thereafter it was me and another group. JUDGE NGOEPE You said Erasmus also gave chase. MR MADLALA I did not say that. Erasmus did not run after Mr Jama. Maybe he might have come thereafter. What I remember is that I was No 2 after Harrington. JUDGE NGOEPE ... want Mr Erasmus not to be so stupid as to shoot, where were they? Were they not busy chasing the deceased? MR MADLALA At the time it was when Mr Jama was getting off from the ground and trying to run. That is when Mr Harrington hadn't yet followed Mr Jama. Maybe Mr Jama ran for about 500 metres before Harrington decided to give chase. It could be a distance from here up to the houses that I am pointing. It is only then that we decided to run after Jama. Because when Jama was running, he was running haphazardly to show that he was now powerless and he could not run further. JUDGE WILSON It should perhaps be indicated that the houses that he is pointing out was somewhere between 100 and 150 metres away. MR MADLALA I do understand that. ADV DE JAGER When was this massacre of the IFP people, how long before this incident? MR MADLALA It was just before we came across Jama. ADV DE JAGER Months or weeks or days? MR MADLALA If I remember quite well, I think it was only four weeks and after that four weeks that's where we came across Jama. ADV DE JAGER Do you in fact know when the ANC was unbanned? MR MADLALA No, I have no idea. 2A - 11.2 ADV DE JAGER: /... ADV DE JAGER 104 MR MADLALA ADV DE JAGER So you didn't know whether that massacre was after the unbanning or before the unbanning? MR MADLALA No, I really would not know whether those people were killed after the unbanning or before the unbanning. ADV DE JAGER You heard about the unbanning during or after your court case. MR MADLALA I only heard of it during the case immediately after we got bail, because the case was remanded for about a year. ADV DE JAGER ... did you hear of it then? MR MADLALA Yes, I heard that it had been unbanned and there was going to be a new government and a government of democracy. ADV DE JAGER Even after you heard that, did the killing of IFP members or ANC members, vice versa, did it stop then or did it still continue? MR MADLALA I personally stopped during that time. Even now in gaol we are with other members of the ANC and we are living harmoniously. ADV DE JAGER In gaol you are living harmoniously, and outside, what's the position, do you know or don't you know? MR MADLALA Well, let me just relate this instance, because when we went to the Truth Commission for the first time when they were discussing the Seven Day War, and when I was going to Ashdown to show them where the police shot people, we discovered that people in Mpumuza were now also living in peace, that is the IFP members as well as the ANC members, there was relative calm in the area. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Madlala, I am very perturbed about your evidence about what I think is an important event which led 2A - 11.2 to/... MS KHAMPEPE 105 MR MADLALA to the death of the deceased, Mr Jama, and that is the search of the group of boys that you found next to Dambuza. The evidence of both Mr Erasmus and Harrington was to the effect that the whole group was subjected to an extensive search. In fact, only one person resisted the search and that was Mr Jama, which led to him being put into the van and your evidence or statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission which you have submitted also to this Committee on page 7 at paragraph 25 you yourself says that: "On our way back to Dambuza area we met a group of about 15 boys including Mbongeni Jama, whom we searched after stopping the vehicle, but we found nothing from their persons". You have now changed that and you are saying not all of these persons were searched. Now which evidence are we supposed to believe from you, Mr Madlala? MR MADLALA The people that we searched, I don't know why they said they were all searched, because according to my recollection we were not able to search all of them because the people were many in number, much more than us, and if I recollect quite well, the people were not all searched because Jama at that time was resisting the search and the attention was diverted from the other group to Jama. MS KHAMPEPE Why did you then write in your statement that you searched and you did not indicate that you did not search the whole group. Your statement says that you searched the group. It is your statement and not Mr Harrington and Mr Erasmus's statement. MR MADLALA Yes, it is true, we did search the group, but not all of them were searched, not all of them. We did 2A - 11.2 search/... MS KHAMPEPE 106 MR MADLALA search a certain number, but the attention was diverted later on because at that time Mr Jama was resisting the search. And at that time the attention was shifted from the group as a whole to Mr Jama. MS KHAMPEPE Why is that section not contained in the document that you submitted, Mr Madlala? MR MADLALA Maybe there is a problem that I can put in this manner. It is difficult for me to give the statement to a number of different people because the people that you speak to they don't understand you in the same manner and at times what I can tell you is that as I am here before this Amnesty, I am explaining everything word by word, because there is a tendency of not trusting the people who come to take statements from you. I may further point out that at court during the trial I did not make mention of the diary and I realise that if I mention it in court it was going to count against me because I was a member of the IFP. MS KHAMPEPE ... but I will pass that one. When you mentioned the diary, can you explain to us whether in your opinion the diary was indeed found in the person of Mr Jama? You have repeatedly stated that you witnessed an extensive search on Mr Jama before he was put inside the van. So in your opinion did the diary come from the person of Mr Jama when he was in the van? MR MADLALA I could say this diary belonged to Mr Jama because all of us who were in the van were members of the IFP, so there isn't a person who could have written in the diary that on a certain day they would go and burn so-and-so's house who was an IFP member. I don't think it could have happened amongst IFP members. Because at the top of the list in this diary I saw Mr Vezi's name who was at the 2A - 11.2 top/... MS KHAMPEPE 107 MADLALA top of the hit-list who had to be attacked and his house burnt down. MS KHAMPEPE But Mr Madlala, you had witnessed an extensive search being conducted on the person of Mr Jama and there was nothing that Mr Jama was wearing except for a T-shirt, is that not so, and the diary was found in the pocket of the T-shirt. MR MADLALA It could happen that they are making a mistake there, but I do not know as to whether they got it from the T-shirt. I remember he was wearing a T-shirt. JUDGE WILSON A T-shirt doesn't have pockets, does it? MR MADLALA Yes, I do know that a T-shirt doesn't have pockets. MS KHAMPEPE Do you know how big a size was this diary? MR MADLALA Yes, I do remember. It was the size of the police pocketbook. MS KHAMPEPE You are demonstrating something, can we see your hand? MR MADLALA It was slightly bigger than what I am having in my hand. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. JUDGE WILSON Could you hold that up again, please? CHAIRMAN What is that? JUDGE WILSON Or let us see it. Is that the normal identity document? MR MADLALA No, this is my ticket, my identification. CHAIRMAN Why were these young men searched? MR MADLALA As I was sitting at the back, I do not know because there were people sitting at the front, they stopped the van and I did not know what they suspected at the time as I was still holding the doors the van just stopped and we 2A - 11.2 usually/... CHAIRMAN 108 MR MADLALA usually sit at the back, so I saw the van stopping at that time and all those who were at the front came out and said we should conduct a search on this group. CHAIRMAN For what were they searching? MR MADLALA I think the most important thing when you conduct a search, we always searching for arms and ammunition as well as dagga. These are the main things that we search, but they do not specifically say that we should search them for guns. They just said we should search them. CHAIRMAN You understood that to mean that you must search them for guns or dagga. MR MADLALA No, whatever was unlawful that was in their possession had to be retrieved, because I went to Mr Mkhizi, that is the person I personally searched. Even in court he pointed out that I was the one who searched him. JUDGE NGOEPE But if you were also searching for dagga, how come you missed an object of that size in the pockets of the deceased? MR MADLALA I don't know how to explain this because I did not search Mr Jama. I searched Mr Mkhizi, and maybe the other ones who searched Mr Jama who could not get the diary and they only got it in the van. Maybe they did not search him properly or they did not look into the diary or they thought it was just an ordinary book of no importance. JUDGE NGOEPE In your experience searches for dagga have yielded quantities far smaller than the size of that pocketbook, surely? MR MADLALA Yes, I do know that. JUDGE WILSON I just want you to clear up something for me, please. Where precisely is Nonshezi? 2A - 11.2 MR MADLALA: /... JUDGE WILSON 109 MR MADLALA MR MADLALA When you are at Dambuza next to the hospital, you take the road that proceeds to Hlnatingi(?) and when you get to Hlnatingi it is the taxi rank, there is an exit to Nonshezi. I could say it is next to Nadi. JUDGE WILSON (Inaudible) We are talking about Edendale Hospital. MR MADLALA No, it is quite a distance from the hospital. JUDGE WILSON The direction behind the hospital from where we are now. MR MADLALA No, you go past Edendale Hospital towards Dambuza, because when you go to Dambuza you leave Edendale Hospital. You go past Edendale, you go past Hlnatingi before you get to KwaNoshezi. JUDGE WILSON And Georgetown? Or Georgedale you said you went to. MR MADLALA Georgetown is on the highway. When you pass the Edendale taxi rank. And when you get to where the roads cross then that's Georgetown. JUDGE WILSON ... beyond the dam? MR MADLALA Before you get to Hendley Dam. Hendley Dam is a little bit too far. JUDGE WILSON ... than Hendley. MR MADLALA That is correct. CHAIRMAN ... to your application form for amnesty. Question No 10(a) asks "State political objectives sought to be achieved?" You said: "To oppose the ANC and support Inkatha". That is correct, is it? MR MADLALA Yes, that is true. 2A - 11.2 CHAIRMAN: /... CHAIRMAN 110 MR MADLALA CHAIRMAN Question 10(b) "Your justification for regarding your acts, your omissions and offences associated with a political objective". In other words, how do you justify what you did as having a political objective. And your answer was: "We found out Jama was an ANC member. I have been trained to kill ANC members. I regarded them as the enemy". That is correct? MR MADLALA That is true. CHAIRMAN That is the real reason why you regard your offence as having a political objective. MR MADLALA Yes, that is true. CHAIRMAN Any re-examination? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BANADE CHAIRMAN Is there any way in ascertaining whether Mr Jassat is here? He is not. MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I wonder possibly before you release him, I wonder possibly if Mrs Jama might be invited to find out what her attitude is towards - if you want to? Two of the applicants have expressed their remorse. CHAIRMAN Mr Brink, I think it appropriate that I should take an adjournment at this stage for you, the leaders of evidence, to consult with Mrs Jama and if there are any questions which she would like to be put to these witnesses it should be done through you. JUDGE WILSON There is one question I would like you to raise with her, otherwise I will endeavour to raise it with the applicants, or you may perhaps agree it with them, and that is what the age of Mr Jama was at the time of his 2A - 11.2 death/... 111 death. CHAIRMAN You will of course tell Mrs Jama that even though she may have no questions to ask of these witnesses, she may wish to make a statement and, if necessary, and if she is prepared, it should be done through one of you. You should call her so that she can make her statement. We will take the short adjournment now. COMMISSION ADJOURNS 2A - 11.2 <U>COMMISSION RESUMES /... MR BRINK 112 COMMISSION RESUMES MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I understand that Mr Jassat is on his way here. I have just been given that information as you came in. CHAIRMAN Is there any other witness that you propose calling? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, there are no further witnesses in this application. It is just the three applicants. If the Committee so pleases, we would like to conclude and possibly just make a few closing remarks and be on our way. CHAIRMAN I can understand ... and what is expected of you is not just closing remarks. I think what is expected of you is, I am sure, as much assistance as you can give this Committee on the interpretations you wish to place on the provisions of the Act that are relevant to your clients' case. You may do that now. MR BANADE Mr Chairman, I would like to make use of the opportunity granted to me and start by referring to section 21 of the relevant Act. As you are well aware, there are mainly two important provisions and that is that this Committee, after considering the application, has to be satisfied that the relevant Act - and here we are referring to the murder of Jama - had to have been done with a political motive. And interestingly enough, there are also references made to the conflict of the past. The second aspect is the applications of all the relevant facts being put before the Committee, full disclosure that is, and the further requirements are these contained in section 22 and in submission all three applicants resort to ... (CHANGE-OVER TO TAPE 2B) 2B - 11.2 ... As/... MR BANADE 113 ADDRESS ... As far as full facts go ... that is probably the aspect that bothers the Committee, otherwise I do not understand the detail which has been gone into. In submission, the facts in question were brought before Judge Thirion in court beyond a reasonable doubt, and that is why all three of them were convicted of murder. So there can be absolutely no doubt that they are murderers. The finer details as to why they stopped, why the person was searched, who saw what, with all due respect had to and in anyone's memory would have somewhat become vague by now. The applicants have absolutely no reason to come here and lie before this Committee and I think that can be accepted. What they said before, and specifically before the Court, should be differentiated from what they have said today, if there are some differences, because the aim in a criminal trial is adversary. Facts are withheld and others are emphasised. But, it is the State's duty to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, whereas here the facts are being brought to the fore as far as they can remember and to disclose, as far as they can remember, fully to the Committee. In submission, Sir, if there are differences in their versions, it is with regard to smaller aspects. The fact is, and that has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and they acknowledge, that a certain ANC supporter had been murdered by them. So as far as the Act refers to - I would say that it should be read in connection with the full disclosure. The Act refers to "full" disclosure, and it should once again be read in the light of the fact that this incident took place six years ago, and everyone's memory is not as good. And this is one aspect I would like to touch 2B - 11.2 upon/... MR BANADE 114 ADDRESS upon, the fact that there were verbal agreements in certain paragraphs in the submission of Harrington and Erasmus. You have to take into cognizance that they are being held together and I would like to bring to your attention, after I had consulted with them and given the main facts they were told right, you go and do this on your own, and that was on a Saturday afternoon where I instructed them to fill in the missing pieces, and that they might have consulted with each other. Under those circumstances, that is neither here nor there. Harrington is the one who was consulted with more verbally and in his submission Mr Erasmus borrowed some of his terminology. I do not think that it should affect their credibility before you in any way. JUDGE WILSON It wouldn't if they had said that, but they didn't, did they? And does that not affect their credibility? MR BANADE That is what Mr Erasmus said in his brief reply to you. He said yes, we did prepare it together in consultation with the advocate and that was the part where he was wrong, because the advocate was not present when they wrote them down, but he was not given the opportunity to elaborate on that. JUDGE WILSON He was given the opportunity to answer the questions fully. Nobody tried to shut him up. He also, referring to earlier documents that had nothing to do with you, said there had been no consultation when there clearly had. There was only one document he agreed they had consulted about. And he was not being truthful, was he. If you read the document it is quite clear. There was a great deal of consultation. 2B - 11.2 MR BANADE: /... MR BANADE 115 ADDRESS MR BANADE I don't think there can be any doubt that there was a great deal of consultation. Before, if I understand correctly, in November of last year they gave evidence about a certain Seven Day War, and apparently for that aim they also prepared the submissions together and some of the sentences, which also appear as such now, come from that submission. The way I see it, it cannot affect their credibility. ADV DE JAGER Mr Banade, what do you understand when you speak about full disclosure or facts in question? I only have the English text in front of me. "The applicant has made a full disclosure of all relevant facts". What do you understand to be "relevant facts"? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, it has to be the facts of what happened when this offence took place. Relevant facts in this case are that Mr Jama was apprehended, he was seen as an ANC supporter. How each and everyone realised that he was an ANC supporter differs from instance to instance and the person was murdered. Hence the fact that he was an ANC member and on the one hand they were affiliated to the right-wing and the others were Inkatha supporters. These are the main points, these are the relevant facts. Finer detail may differ, not always to mislead the Committee, but because these acts took place six years ago and I am just asking that it be considered reasonably. To answer your question, we are talking about relevant facts, what happened that day and what went on in their minds and what was the political motive. And with all due respect, Mr Chairperson, I think that has been fully disclosed to this Committee. JUDGE NGOEPE It does not help us for them to come and say 2B - 11.2 well/... MR BANADE 116 ADDRESS well, we killed this man and then you regard it as a disclosure of a material aspect. The fact that they killed that person is not of earth shattering importance, because we know they did that. Of importance is for them to tell us how they went about doing that. For example, an applicant would say that I took out a knife, I stabbed him three times, and he stood up to try and run away, I tripped him and then I stabbed him twice in the back and all that sort of thing. Those are the important details that we need to know. That is what full disclosure is all about. It is not enough for an applicant just to say well, I killed that person. And perhaps you may have to address us with regard to whether or not, with reference to what I have said as important, how your clients acquitted themselves around that issue. MR BANADE Mr Chairman, yes, I agree with you that the detail of how this happened has to be disclosed, but is that not what happened? There were eight people; this Committee is faced with three of them. Each one is his own individual and as these events unfolded, the one sat at the back and the one sat in front and they see different pictures. They see things differently, being different individuals and obviously they would differ in certain details because the one saw certain things which the other didn't see. The way I see it they did quite well in saying what each one remembers. Each one informed the Committee as to what their role was. Erasmus, and I think it is the first time he has disclosed it, has said that I am the one who came up with the suggestion that we should kill him and Harrington also said that. 2B - 11.2 JUDGE NGOEPE: /... MR BANADE 117 ADDRESS JUDGE NGOEPE The first applicant, Mr Harrington, repeatedly banged the deceased's head against the rock, repeatedly, there is that kind of evidence. It came out from Madlala. What did Mr Harrington say about that himself? Did he tell us about that? Did he give us those details? MR BANADE As far as I can remember, he did not make mention of it, about the head banging, but in essence the rest was there. If I remember correctly, he was dragged out and he fell and he was dragged out with a belt around his neck, he tried to escape, somebody wanted to shoot him and was stopped, told not to shoot. And thereafter they caught the man and if I remember these details were given and thereafter the man was shot. JUDGE WILSON He made no mention of this. How can you just brush it aside and say and thereafter these details were given. Mr Harrington did not mention it once, did he? MR BANADE To the best of my knowledge, Mr Chairman, he did not. Does it really make such a big different that small little detail where they differ from each other? MS KHAMPEPE ... supposed to attach any material weight to that kind of an omission? Is it not a significant omission as it relates to how the death in respect of which amnesty has to granted was committed? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, the fact of the matter is, at the criminal trial it was determined that death was caused by the shot from a shotgun in the man's face. Now the law as we all know works on the basis of a common purpose and according to that Mr Harrington is also guilty, the same as Mr Erasmus, the same as Mr Madlala. Although this Committee would know that the person who was 2B - 11.2 the/... MR BANADE 118 ADDRESS the direct cause of the shot is Mr Madlala. Mr Harrington gave enough facts before this Committee, as far as making it an associated deed, by saying that he dragged the man out of the vehicle and chased him when he tried to escape and so forth and then he placed Mr Madlala and the shot went off. CHAIRMAN: I think the question that is being directed at you is, can it be said that Mr Harrington has made a full disclosure when he did not breathe a word about banging the head of the deceased, Jama, on the rock? I think that is the level at which the question is put. Do you think that he has made a full disclosure, in the absence of any admission by him that he had done so? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, if I remember correctly, Mr Madlala's evidence was, as far as that aspect of the detail is concerned, was given after Mr Harrington gave evidence so there was not a chance to put this version of Mr Madlala to Mr Harrington. And if it bothers the Committee so much then I could ask him about it. JUDGE WILSON I take it you have read the judgment where Thirion J says, dealing with accused No 3 and fetching the gun "However, the deceased might have been dead or fatally injured by then. Since he joined the common purpose after the deceased might already have been killed, he cannot be found guilty of murder. However, if the accused No 3 believed the deceased was still alive, then he would by his act become guilty of an attempted murder". So it would appear that the court a quo found that the deceased may have been dead when the shot was fired. That is, that the banging of the head may have already killed 2B - 11.2 him/... MR BANADE 119 ADDRESS him. That was the finding of the court a quo at page 823. So I do not understand your submission that you said the trial court found the cause of death to be the shooting. The trial court could not find what the cause of death was. It was either the injuries inflicted by Harrington or the shooting, as appears at page 823 of the judgment, if you would like to look at it. MR BANADE Mr Chairman, I accept what you have just read to me. I don't know which part of the judgment that is, but the fact remains - that is a technical aspect as to whether the man was dead before the time or thereafter, but the intention remained among the people present in the bush that day, that if this man was not dead, shoot him in the head to ensure that he is really dead. JUDGE WILSON You are avoiding the question again. The intention is, if he banged his head so hard against rocks to kill him he should have told us, all he? If the trial court found he may, as a result of Harrington's throttling and banging his head have already killed him. But we were not told by Harrington, were we? And that is the point my Brother has raised with you. ADV DE JAGER On page 818 of the judgment, towards the bottom round about line 25 "The account given by accused 1, 2 and 3 and Van der Hogen that accused 6 pulled the deceased out of the van, causing him to fall and that he thereafter throttled him with a belt on the ground accords with the probabilities". Then on the next page: "After the deceased had run away he was pursued by accused 1 and 6 and was brought down by accused 2B - 11.2 No/... MR BANADE 120 ADDRESS No 6. Accused No 6's account of what happened thereafter is a curious one. According to him he stood up, the deceased was still lying on the ground and he put his foot on the deceased's shoulder". That's his version. Now could you kindly deal with the version about the hammering of his head - I cannot find it at the moment - against the rocks, where that emerges. JUDGE NGOEPE (Microphone not activated) MR BANADE I am not in a position at this stage to take it any further. I do not see that it comes our in the judgment of Mr Justice Thirion. CHAIRMAN I understand your argument to mean that as far as you are concerned, they have made as full a disclosure as is required by the Act, and that if this detail is not disclosed, as far as you are concerned, they have more or less complied with the provisions of the Act. That is your submission, is that it? MR BANADE Yes, Mr Chairman, that is what I am trying to convey. I cannot understand how such a small difference makes a different in a 10, 15 year sentence, because they fully disclosed their part in this offence. JUDGE NGOEPE There is something else also troubling me. With regard to the second applicant, his entire explanation of what happened at the scene, is contained in a paragraph on page 4 of the statement I think of the statement he entered in, and he didn't go beyond that. That portion read - paragraph 3 of page of his handwritten statement, which you handed in yesterday" "Ons het daar ingery". Do you see that? The statement which you handed in 2B - 11.2 yesterday/... JUDGE NGOEPE 121 MR BANADE yesterday by Mr Erasmus, page 4: "We drove a stretch and stopped in a bush. Deep in the IFP area. I got out and saw Jama running away. I drew my 9mm pistol and pointed it at him in order to shoot him. Harrington said I should not for fear of ballistic tests. Harrington and Madlala traced him. The rest of us followed. Madlala took the shotgun from Dhlamini. The rest of us started walking back to the vehicle and the shot went off". Has he said anything about the actual killing? How the deceased was treated at the scene? Has he really said anything about that? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, if one were to examine this paragraph, you would clearly see what Mr Erasmus's perspective was at the time. He said the shot went off. His perspective, even though the death was caused in another way, his perception was that the shot caused his death and it is quite clear that he conveyed his perception to this Committee. JUDGE NGOEPE ... the deceased was throttled by Mr Harrington many times. At some stage he was taken out of the van with the belt around his neck and in his statement Harrington said in so many words that he ha throttled the deceased at least on more than one occasion. Mr Erasmus is surprisingly quiet on the aspect of the throttling of the deceased. He never said a word about it. And yesterday he was asked a question, did you see Mr Harrington throttle the deceased with the belt. His first reaction was: at which stage? And then I intervened and I said at any stage? And then he said no, I never saw him do that. And I asked him 2B - 11.2 why/... JUDGE NGOEPE 122 MR BANADE why, if he never saw it at all, what was the need for him to ask at what stage. And now it transpired from the evidence that we had today from Mr Madlala that the throttling of the deceased was done - at least at some stage in such a way that it was so many times, surely Mr Erasmus ought to have seen that. Are you going to argue that it is possible Mr Erasmus never saw any the throttling at all, and if he did see it, why did he not tell us? Why did he say he never saw it and why did he not tell us about it. MR BANADE Mr Chairman, perhaps I could counter that with a counter question. That is Mr Erasmus's evidence. If you can remember correctly he gave evidence after Mr Harrington gave evidence. Mr Harrington himself had already told the Committee that he had strangled the deceased with his own belt. And that has already been brought before this Committee. What would Mr Erasmus's reason be for withholding such information and to suppress it, to use your own word. He can't possibly have motive. Besides, it wasn't his own actions which he was being questioned about. Just for interest's sake I consider that part of your question, I followed your line of questioning yesterday, and I followed it on the Afrikaans channel. And the interpreter used the word, instead of "belt", used the word "band", and I thought that perhaps it confused Mr Erasmus somewhat - band - until he realised that the actual word being used was "belt". JUDGE NGOEPE Was it about the question he was - the question was whether he was being strangled by Mr Harrington. It makes no difference what the actual thing was that was being used. MR BANADE The only point that I am trying to put to you is 2B - 11.2 that/... JUDGE NGOEPE 123 MR BANADE that there were a few seconds there where Mr Erasmus was a bit confused and did not know with which part you were dealing. That is quite honestly the idea which I got. But my answer to you is, why would Mr Erasmus suppress it? He would not achieve anything by withholding any information from this Committee. MR BANADE Now to go to the political motive. This part in section 20(1)(b). In submission I think that should be the aspect where the Committee should have the least problem. The whole context within which this murder took place indicates that it was within and in connection with a political motive. Eight persons from the riot squad were in a certain vehicle, three of them white, five of them were IFP affiliates, not just IFP affiliates, but confirmed IFP supporters, and the evidence here is overwhelming that and ANC supporter could not be a constable at the time. They picked the man up and eventually his corpse was found in the bushes. The point I am trying to make is before one even goes into all the detail you find this. What might bother the Committee is were there no other objectives, and that is how I could understand the questions. But i submission the Act says that it had to be in association with a political motive. It does not say that it should only be a political motive or that the context in which it should have taken place should have been 99% a political motive. The Act leaves a loophole that there could be other objectives as well with the individual. The little loopgate which we can look at is that there could be an association or a political objective. And in the light of all probability I think it is quite clear to this Committee. 2B - 11.2 The/... 124 MR BANADE The people did not just say it in their submissions, but I think the entire context indicates such. The murder was associated with a political objective. I think if I could speak on behalf of Mr Madlala, I think it was much clearer in his case. He was not a full policeman, he was a special constable, and from a very young age he was raised with being an Inkatha supporter. Of course at that stage they still obtained information. He heard about this man and his involvement in murdering IFP supporters. So in my view he qualifies for amnesty in this regard. The same with Mr Erasmus and Harrington; their evidence to you was that at that stage they were not card-carrying members of the AWB or any other right-wing political party, but they had right-wing attitudes. But these are young men and found themselves in a riot squad and they were indoctrinated along that line of thought and worked under violent circumstances. It all indicates that they would have had this kind of attitude towards these people. Here they apprehend a man, find a pocketbook in his possession. Once again, after I read Judge Thirion's judgment last night, on page 814, where he refers to the pocketbook. The pocketbook surfaced in that trial already. They found a pocketbook. Some of them understand Zulu. Those who understand Zulu tell the others in the vehicle that this person has mentioned something about killing policemen and that he is anti-IFP and we also know that it took place approximately 14 days after the KwaShange bus incident. With all due respect, I think this is ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 3A) ... and at the very least one of the objectives of this group was politically motivated. 3A - 11.2 In/... 125 MR BANADE In submission I think that it was probably 80% politically motivated. But it is something which the Committee has to consider in the light of the facts. JUDGE WILSON ... act committed with a political objective, not politically motivated. MR BANADE Yes, Mr Chairman. The words in the English version speak about a political objective. The Afrikaans one speaks about a political point of view. A point of view has got a broad context. Objective and point of view, I don't think it limits the fact that the act was committed 100% with a political view. The way I see it the Act made provision for that. Because if one looks at the people who drew up the Act and you look at the act which was committed, your feeling tells you that this is the type of act for which the Amnesty Act was drawn up. Mr Chairman, that is then my submission to this Committee. As it pleases the Committee. JUDGE NGOEPE With regard to the pocket diary, are you arguing that - I know that the trial Judge referred to the pocket diary - but on the evidence we have now, are you arguing that one can really make a finding that there was such a pocket diary, taking into account two points. Firstly, the fact that this person was thorough searched and that they were in fact even looking for dagga. And secondly, this bizarre behaviour on the part of the police simply throwing away such a document which would have been important to them. (Inaudible) diary could have emerged from. MR BANADE Mr Chairman, as I understood the evidence, the pocketbook did not come from a pocket. I think within the 3A - 11.2 context/... 126 MR BANADE context, they were driving, they saw a person, or saw a group, they stopped, got out of the vehicle and now these people are being searched in the way Mr Madlala said. And I think on a balance of probabilities it could have happened. All 15 of them weren't thoroughly searched, but there was some sort of search conducted on Mr Jama. The first problem which they would encounter is whether there was something hard on this person in the form of a weapon. I do not think it was a thorough search and I do think it was possible that something as soft as a book could have been discovered at a later stage. And the person who had initially searched him could have felt the book and probably not paid much attention to it since they weren't really looking for books, but rather weapons and so forth and that a weapon did not surface. And at a later stage when they had this person in the back of the police van they could have felt that there was something else here and under more calm circumstances they could have found the book. They saw that the man was trying to hide something and secondly they weren't merely searching for weapons but also for dagga. Which could still have been hidden in that little pocketbook. Mr Chairman, I still do not think, notwithstanding the fact that there are probably a few questions about that, I do not think that the Committee can find that there was no pocketbook. That was the version which surfaced in front of Judge Thirion. And I think even in that trial there were differences. But even his words on page 814 of the original judgment, with regards to why Harrington, accused No 6, went to go and sit at the back. "The most likely reason why accused 6 would have wanted to question the deceased would 3A - 11.2 have/... 127 MR BANADE have been in connection with the notebook or diary found in the deceased's possession". I read through it once again last night and Judge Thirion does not refer to it again, but it seems as though he was satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a pocketbook found in his possession. ADV DE JAGER Mr Banade, the pocketbook is highly auspicious. But is there any evidence on which it can be found that there was no pocketbook? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, with all due respect, no. I can't think of any evidence against that which was heard here. To tell the truth, Erasmus says that he found the pocketbook - I beg your pardon - Harrington says that he found the pocketbook, Erasmus says that he was sitting in the front of the vehicle, he heard about the pocketbook. He did not physically see the pocketbook. Mr Madlala also confirms that there was a pocketbook found. JUDGE NGOEPE Be careful in your answer, because there is evidence that he was searched and nothing was found on him. There is that evidence. Isn't there? Is there evidence that he was found and nothing was found on him? CHAIRMAN And bearing in mind that Madlala did not tell the trial court anything at all about the pocketbook. But be that as it may. The point that concerns is, why was that pocketbook thrown away? Can you tell us what the reason was? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, just to answer the first part. In my opinion there is overwhelming evidence that there was a pocketbook, albeit purely based on Judge Thirion's judgment and there ware three persons who make mention of it. The fact that he was searched and nothing was found on 3A - 11.2 him/... 128 MR BANADE him, I do not think on the basis of that bit of evidence one can say that there was no evidence. It is possible that nothing was found at that stage. But to go to your question as to why it was thrown away. Certainly it is strange, but one has to bear in mind that these persons are affiliated to a riot squad, working in a riot squad, they are not investigators, they are not your typical charge office policemen, they are riot squad policemen. They are in a completely different category. They are used to have a physical presence at certain places and they do not take matters to court. So for a typical young man under those circumstances who found the pocketbook, and at that time his thoughts were to assault this man, decided to throw the pocketbook away. Why he did it may seem irrational today, but I do not think it should be regarded as so irrational that one could assume on the basis of that bit of evidence that there was no pocketbook. JUDGE NGOEPE ... allegedly contained not only the name of a prominent IFP person, but a number of houses which were targeted. If they throw it away how would they be able to go and warn those people who are potential victims, who were listed in the pocket diary and say we found your addresses listed in the pocketbook of a possible hit man, he might have conspired with other people, be careful. How would they go and warn them? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, I myself am not aware of addresses being in there. JUDGE NGOEPE The addresses. That is what Mr Madlala said. In fact, at some stage he referred to it as a hit list. MR BANADE I cannot answer you there. You have already cross-examined that evidence and I cannot answer that 3A - 11.2 question/... 129 MR BANADE question. MS KHAMPEPE There is overwhelming evidence that a pocketbook was found, and probably no one can say anything against that. There is, however, a serious dispute on how this pocketbook was found. According to the evidence of Harrington he states that it was himself and Mr Madlala who found the pocketbook in a pocket T-shirt which was worn by Mr Jama who is deceased. So there is a dispute on how this pocketbook was found and who found it. What is your response to that? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, my response to that would be, as I said earlier today, there is a six year gap between the happenings on that day and today. If one should be questioned today about details of an incident that took place six years ago, they would be a bit vague, and obviously different people see things differently. The Judges in the Supreme Court and magistrates are aware of that and I would have to attribute the differences to these two factors, the gap between when the incident took place and now and also the different individuals' way of seeing things. CHAIRMAN You may proceed. JUDGE WILSON As a matter of interest, in his statement which was submitted to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, he refers to the pocketbook having been "a pocketbook was found in his shirt pocket". You said earlier you weren't if there was any reference to it. He in fact did say so. MS KHAMPEPE He says the same thing in his statement which is before us on page 6, that is the third paragraph. CHAIRMAN Anyway, it is quite clear that you cannot take 3A - 11.2 the/... 130 MR BANADE the matter very much further than that. MR BANADE Indeed, Mr Chairperson. These are the submissions I would like to make and I would just like to add lastly that the two important loopholes about relevant facts and full disclosure in conjunction with a political objective, I think Mr Chairman, have been shown to this Committee and I do not think the Committee should have any problems in finding that all three the applicants meet the requirements for amnesty and should be granted amnesty in terms of the Act. JUDGE WILSON I take it you agree he does not fall within the provisions of section 20(2)(b), or that they don't fall within. That is "Any employee of the State or any former State, or any member of the Security Forces, in the course and scope of his or her duties and within the scope of his or her express or implied authority, directed against a publicly known political organisation engaged in a political struggle against the State" This was not bona fide within the course and scope of his duties. You agree? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, yes. I have to say that in preparation for this Committee meeting I did look at paragraph 20(2)(b). I read it over and over again and asked myself this question as to whether people were to work within their narrow scope you know, to get amnesty, or whether somebody went beyond their call of duty, should it really make such a big difference. I think strictly speaking, apparently they were - when they decided to kill this person it was on a frolic of their own. 3A - 11.2 ADV DE JAGER:/... ADV DE JAGER 131 MR BANADE ADV DE JAGER Mr Banade, if they act within the police line of duty does it say that they could not have committed a murder, if they were within the provisions of the Criminal Procedure Act? The Police Act does not authorise any policeman to commit a murder. MR BANADE That is correct. ADV DE JAGER It may authorise a police officer to shoot a person during an arrest, but not to murder a person. MR BANADE Exactly, I agree with you. It cannot. CHAIRMAN ... as far as you are concerned, these three people were on a frolic of their own. Is that how you put it? MR BANADE According to a strict interpretation of section 20(2)(b) where they speak about, and as Judge Wilson read it, in the course and within the ambit. It is not just within the course. It says "and within the scope of his or her duties and within the scope of his or her authority" to have committed it. That puts them in a very tight corridor. That is what I was trying to say to Judge Wilson. I cannot imagine what the person drawing up the Act meant. But they still qualify in terms of paragraph (a), where it says "Any member or supporter of a well-known political organisation". ADV DE JAGER If Mr Madlala gives evidence that he was trained to do it and that it was the objective of trained constables? MR BANADE Mr Chairman, then the person that drew up the Act did not provide for that. Because I think the intention of the Act was to make provision for such acts in applications for amnesty as well, but it hasn't been done. CHAIRMAN It is quite clear that you are not (inaudible). 3A - 11.2 MR BANADE: /... 132 MR BANADE MR BANADE They are going to have to qualify what section 20(2) says as far as "any supporter of any political organisation" is concerned. There is no evidence before this Committee that it was the instruction of the Conservative Party or the AWB or the Democratic Party, but that they were rightwingers, and under those circumstances, Mr Chairman, within the context of that time, there was a very broad spectrum of political affiliations which were anti-ANC, and in that regard certainly they were supporters of that broad political spectrum. MR BRINK Before commencing, I may just say, Mr Chairman, I am informed that the attorney for Mrs Jama is now present. Mr Chairman, the problem I have with these applications is that accepting that there was what one has heard in previous enquiries, a "sub culture" in the police, a sub culture of violence and very strong anti-ANC beliefs and so on, accepting that, the problem with these applicants is, I think, to a large extent the fact that in February 1990 the African National Congress, amongst other formerly illegal organisations, was unbanned. And, indeed, on the day in question the applicants had been to some sort of gathering where there were approximately 2000 members of the ANC which they were monitoring and/or protecting or guarding. And you will recollect further that one of the members of the ANC at that particular gathering requested Constable Harrington to ask him special constables to refrain from toyi-toying in case it led to I imagine difficulties. And notwithstanding his avowed contempts and hatred for the ANC, he complied willingly in a spirit of great cooperation. I find that strange. Then later on these 10 or 15 young men are accosted. 3A - 11.2 I/... MR BRINK 133 ADDRESS I believe that they would all have been searched, because the purpose of the police was to check on whether they had things, as came out in the evidence, firearms, dagga and the like. And then this notebook or diary or whatever it is, is discovered. It doesn't matter from whom it came. The point is that on the evidence, and if you accept the evidence, there was this document which was extremely important to the applicants, more particularly to Mr Harrington and Mr Erasmus, because had they kept that document, and after the death of Mr Jama, they could have taken that document to their superiors and said this is what we've done and although maybe we shouldn't have done it, we did it because we discovered this vital information. That would have helped them. But to throw this document away, this pocketbook or whatever it is away, seems to me to be something which certainly can't advance their case. Had they kept it and had they not killed Jama, but they did kill him so it doesn't matter, but the point is they would obviously have done better by taking him to the police station and arresting him. And then it is very odd, when you consider that at the bottle store, without discussing the matter between themselves - and I now refer to the first and second applicants - they have exactly or almost exactly the same thought. They both have this so-called inner explosion, they both suddenly are reminded of the murder of Major Terblanche, they both refer to a member of the ANC, an avowed communist sitting amongst them, they both refer to atrocities of the past, and this is very extraordinary to say the least, they then have this feeling without having 3A - 11.2 discussed/.... MR BRINK 134 ADDRESS discussed it. I think the problems the applicants face are those and I myself am not persuaded that a political objective has been shown. There may well have been some sort of political motive, but I am not that that covers what is required in terms of the Act. And unless there are any questions, those are my submissions. CHAIRMAN If there was a pocket book, on the assumption that there was, could it not have been thrown away as part of an exercise to destroy evidence of their criminal behaviour for fear it might be detected? MR BRINK Yes, there is that possibility. More especially if we accept the evidence that one of the applicants called upon the other not to fire because of the danger of ballistics testing at a later stage. JUDGE NGOEPE But what did they kill him for? Except that he was really a member of the ANC which was at loggerheads with the IFP at the time and bearing in mind that during that time there was a lot of political conflict in that area, I doubt whether had he not been a member of the ANC they would have killed him. Doesn't that go a long way towards showing political motive? Political motive or, in the wording of the Act, towards showing that their act was associated with a political objective, to harass, to weaken, to kill members of the ANC? MR BRINK Yes, certainly to harass, and one accepts and I think Adv De Jager put a question at an earlier stage, notwithstanding the fact the ANC was unbanned, there was continual trouble which exists to this day between the ANC and the IFP, yes, that is so. But of course it may well be that the applicants subjectively believed that the late Mr 3A - 11.2 Jama/... MR BRINK 135 ADDRESS Jama was a member of the ANC. I am not sure if the evidence disclosed he was wearing an ANC T-shirt, but he was certainly associated with the group, some of whom were wearing an ANC T-shirt. But it seems, if you consider the statements handed in yesterday in their handwriting, what caused them to commit this murder? In their own words they have this identical belief or identical motive the murder of Major Terblanche, the fact they have an ANC member and an alleged communist in their presence; they both think that. Personally speaking, my submission is that that doesn't amount in itself to a political objective. JUDGE NGOEPE You must remember that the whole idea of killing ANC members had been there even before that day. It is not something which simply originated on that day. It had always been in their mind, and probably they had killed others, I don't know. The fact is that there had been that kind of mentality that you can kill an ANC member. So it doesn't really surprise one, does it, that on that day both of them had the idea of killing the man. MR BRINK Mr Chairman, yes, I concede that and I agree with that entirely. The point is that one has now learnt there was a degree of Third Force activities and that these two applicants were part of that Third Force. Of that I think there can be little doubt, notwithstanding the fact the ANC was unbanned. You've heard evidence and research has shown Third Force did exist, even after the unbanning of the ANC, more particulary so, yes, I accept that. ADV DE JAGER Mr Brink, if there was a Third Force, officially a Third Force, weren't they acting in the scope of the Third Force business? 3A - 11.2 MR BRINK: /... MR BRINK 136 ADDRESS MR BRINK That depends on whether the Third Force falls within the definition of a political organisation. That sort of thing, yes. ADV DE JAGER Or Security Forces. MR BRINK Or Security Forces. ADV DE JAGER But they were officially paid by the government, the Third Force. MR BRINK Yes. But of course you've heard there have been denials that a Third Force ever existed from the part of the previous government. JUDGE NGOEPE The other point that you made was that they had a strong case, or they could have had a strong case against the deceased with the diary and the like. But my guess is that in many so-called political killings, even in the undisputed ones, the person had the choice to do something else. It is just that they go for the worst thing which is murder. But if you start looking at it, it doesn't mean that anyone of them didn't have any alternative. For one thing they could have left the deceased. Everybody had that choice. I don't know whether one can use that rigorous test against their actions and say well, they shouldn't have killed him, they should have taken him to the police station. After all they had the diary, that sort of thing. All these murders are foolish, anyway, aren't they? MR BRINK Of course had they not killed the deceased they wouldn't be applying for amnesty today so one knows that happened. And the question then arises: under which of the subsections of section 20 may apply. With respect, I think it is common cause that section 20(2)(b) does not apply. If you have a look at section 20(2)(f) any person who on reasonable grounds believed that he was acting in the course 3A - 11.2 and/... MR BRINK 137 ADDRESS and scope of his authorities or implied authority, if they had the subjective belief that their conduct might well have been approved by their superiors, my problem with that is all very well had the diary been kept, but the diary was thrown away and they concealed all the evidence and never reported the matter. JUDGE NGOEPE (Inaudible) MR BRINK Under (a)? The question arises whether there has been the full - sorry 2(a), I beg your pardon, yes. The political organisation of course is the AWB which they then supported, or the policies of which they then supported. They certainly weren't supporters of a liberation movement, unless one can say in a strange way the AWB was a liberation movement. ADV DE JAGER Could they have been supporters of Inkatha? MR BRINK Yes, indeed, I accept that. I accept they would have tacitly supported Inkatha, even if they weren't members yes, certainly, yes, I accept that. I don't dispute that. I don't challenge that at all. (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 3B) JUDGE NGOEPE ... the applicants are lying with regard to the discovery of the diary, of what significance would be that lie? It may be that they introduced that aspect as an attempt to bolster their case, to try and show that the murder was politically motivated because here is somebody with a diary in which he mentions having killed IFP people and the like. You know they might have unwisely introduced that element with the false hope that it would bolster their case. But if one finds that they were lying, what damage, if any, can it do to their case? MR BRINK Mr Chairman, I think one can't really make a finding that there was no diary. That aspect of the 3B - 11.2 evidence/... MR BRINK 138 ADDRESS evidence given is suspicious. We know the search took place. Everyone has confirmed the existence of a diary and it seems to have been accepted by the trial court that there was a diary or pocketbook. JUDGE NGOEPE I have my own views about that, that is why I am asking you the question. That's why I am asking you to consider the question at the hypothetical level at which I am putting it to you. Because I am not sure one can rule out the possibility of a finding that there was no diary. MR BRINK Of course that aspect was canvassed by the trial court. JUDGE NGOEPE They have their own views, I have got my view. CHAIRMAN The trial court had to make ... MR BRINK If you come to the conclusion that there was in fact no diary or pocketbook, the applicants have then created that fiction in order to ....(intervention). CHAIRMAN ... after all the trial court refers to the fact that there was a diary, not because any State witness has said so but because the accused themselves said so. MR BRINK Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE ... didn't you read us something that (inaudible - microphone not activated) MR BRINK I find that quite extraordinary, Mr Chairman, because the diary was mentioned in the trial court. But the Appellate Division decision to which I referred you at page 109 halfway down - it is page 248 of the judgment but 109 of your papers, of the bundle - after dealing with the basic background to the appeal, the court merely said the appeal, however is really concerned on the basis of the following findings 3B - 11.2 "By/... MR BRINK 139 ADDRESS "At Jama's searching nothing was found and nothing further happened as far as justifying his arrest". ... that there was a search but nothing at all was found, which I find a little extraordinary in the light of the trial court's judgment. JUDGE NGOEPE But they were told the same thing, that nothing was found. We were told the same thing that he was searched and nothing was found on him. Anyway, it is by the way. I am not getting into a debate about it. ADV DE JAGER Mr Brink, I'd like to say that the result was that the court was not able to resolve all the points of dispute satisfactorily, but the appeal was considered on the basis of the following findings. So all disputes were not resolved satisfactorily. MR BRINK No, Mr Chairperson, the Judge had a very difficult time. CHAIRMAN Mrs Jama, is your attorney here? Mr Jassat, do you still represent Mrs Jama? MR JASSAT (Inaudible - microphone not activated) CHAIRMAN You have been asked to make a statement on behalf of Mrs Jama. MR JASSAT Mr Chairman, my client has heard the applicants' request that she forgive them. But she is not able to do so because she doesn't believe a word of what they have said in their application. She doesn't believe that they have been frank with this Committee, and effectively the question of their political motives is basically an excuse to get out of gaol. She has also instructed me to advise this Committee that this question of the pocket diary is something that the applicants manufactured because they had to have an excuse 3B - 11.2 for/... MR JASSAT 140 ADDRESS for having detained her son. Her belief is that the only reason why her son was arrested was simply because he put his hand in his pocket and the fact that the had an ANC shirt. If the applicants were bent on their political objectives, then we fail to understand why the 10 people that were in the group who were members of the ANC, were not all taken into custody and done away with. Why Jama was selected. And it seems that the deceased got killed simply because he put his hand in his pocket. Her belief is, and she is merely speculating, because this inquiry is merely about who is speaking the truth, she believes that her son was so badly assaulted by the police that they couldn't let him live in case he went to the authorities. Having been found out they now use politics as an excuse for having done him in. She is quite prepared to forgive them if they come clean and speak the truth, but she has faith in your Committee in deciding whether they should be granted amnesty or not. Her one difficulty is the following. That it appears from the evidence that the deceased was killed because he said something about the KwaShange incident. She knows as a fact that her son was with her in Richmond at the time of the KwaShange incident and he could not have known about it or taken part in it. So therefore the explanation tendered by the applicants for killing him, she cannot accept that. The other aspect that worries us is the fact that these applicants - some of them testified that Major Terblanche had given them an undertaking that if they got themselves into trouble he will be there to protect them. But at the 3B - 11.2 time/... MR JASSAT 141 ADDRESS time when the deceased was murdered, Major Terblanche was no more around, he was already dead. So who was going to protect them? I don't know what the role is of the commanding officers who were in charge of their unit after Major Terblanche was murdered, because I wasn't here, but it seems that their story that they did this with a political motive must be rejected. They are basically rogue policemen who just got out of line and committed a crime and are now using the provisions of the amnesty in order to get out of prison. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN Mr Jassat, yesterday when we adjourned, it was understood that you would be afforded an opportunity at half past nine this morning to be here. We haven't had a word from you as to why you have shown this Committee the courtesy of an explanation as to why you were not here or to apologise for your non-attendance this morning. It was arranged that you were going to be allowed to question witnesses at half past nine this morning and members of my Committee would like to know why. MR JASSAT I am sorry that I haven't apologised. As you know, I came into this matter at the last minute, as I indicated to you yesterday. I had other commitments, we had to be in court this morning, and I was trying to get out of a case this morning, but unfortunately it proceeded and finished at eleven o'clock. Immediately that finished I had no way of contacting the Committee because I did not have a telephone number and immediately I got a call I arrived at this hearing. To that end I don't want to be disrespectful to this Committee, but I must apologise again. JUDGE NGOEPE You say that you came here as a response to 3B - 11.2 a/... MR JASSAT 142 ADDRESS a telephone call you received from us? MR JASSAT Yes, I was on my way here and I got a call as well from a lady by the name of Tando. I believe that was at the request of Mr Brink. JUDGE NGOEPE I was just wondering what would have happened if we had not made a call. MR JASSAT I was on my way. The other difficulty of course I've had is that in preparing for this hearing I had no documentation, I have come completely blind into this hearing and I've come here merely to assist Mrs Jama. CHAIRMAN I don't think that is the problem; that's not the problem. The problem is that it was arranged at half past nine this morning that you would be here. Yesterday we knew that you had no documents, you made that point yesterday. We are talking about the fact that you did not attend this morning, nor was there any explanation offered for your not being here. MR JASSAT I have tendered an explanation, Mr Chairman. I was asked to address this Committee in response to the application. Had I been asked at the initial outset as to why I was not here, I would have explained that. Now that you've raised it, I have explained it, and I hope you will accept the explanation. Unfortunately I had other commitments in court. It wasn't appointments, it was a court matter which should have been adjourned but ....(intervention). ADV DE JAGER But why didn't you tell us yesterday about it, you knew about your court appointment. Why did you agree to be here at half past nine this morning? MR JASSAT Sorry, I was told to be here at half past nine. JUDGE WILSON You requested the opportunity to put 3B - 11.2 questions/... MR JASSAT 143 ADDRESS questions this morning. You weren't told. You yesterday applied to be able to question this morning, do you remember that? Do you remember asking if you could stand down for this morning to put your questions? MR JASSAT I said I was going to take instructions from my client, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Why do that when you knew you had an appointment in court? MR JASSAT Mr Chairman, I didn't have my diary with me. I had come in as a last minute legal representative for Mrs Jama. I've come here to assist Mrs Jama and to that end I hope I have achieved that. But I've had appointments made in respect of court matters, those are fixed long before this hearing. Had adequate notice been given to Mrs Jama and had she consulted me there wasn't a question of probably double-dating so to speak. MS KHAMPEPE Are you able to ascertain from Mrs Jama what the age of the late Mr Jama was at the time of his death? MR JASSAT I was told that he was born in 1972. JUDGE NGOEPE Was he still at school at the time? MR JASSAT Yes, he was going to go to school. The reason why he left Richmond was because of the problems that were taking place in Richmond and he had to flee, and that is the reason why he came to stay in the area near Edendale. CHAIRMAN It is a convenient stage to take the adjournment. We will now adjourn and resume at two o'clock. MR BANADE Mr Chairman, just to make sure. I would just like to hear from you if you have finished with these three applicants and if we can leave for Bloemfontein at this stage. Very briefly I would like to know if you intend to proceed with the next applicants. 3B - 11.2 CHAIRMAN: /... 144 CHAIRMAN Yes, your client's further attendance will not be required. They are excused and they may leave. MR BANADE Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS 3B - 11.2 ON RESUMPTION:/... 145 ON RESUMPTION AT 14:00 CHAIRMAN Before commencing with the next matter, that of Mr Mzimela, have we ascertained whether the relatives of the deceased or his next-of-kin are present and, if so, what their attitude is to this application? MS THABETHE Mr Chairman, I have had an opportunity to consult with the victims, they are here. It is the wife of the deceased and the brother of the deceased. Basically what they said to me is, as long as the applicant makes full disclosure of the truth, they don't see why they should oppose the application for amnesty. But I outlined to them the function of the Amnesty Committee as a whole and the fact that it might appear from the applicant's evidence that the whole incident was political. They then said to me they are not aware of such a fact and their only concern with the application for amnesty on behalf of the applicant, and if he is granted amnesty, is their safety. They are concerned about that. I then outlined to them their rights to say something if they want to. They said they will think about it and they are more interested in hearing what the applicant has to say. CHAIRMAN ... it is therefore not possible at this stage to say whether this application can be disposed of this afternoon, or can we say that? MS THABETHE Mr Chairman, I don't see why it shouldn't be disposed of this afternoon. CHAIRMAN Mr Wills, you appear for the applicant in this matter. MR WILLS That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRMAN And are you prepared to proceed with your 4A - 11.2 application/... 146 application in this matter? MR WILLS That is correct. CHAIRMAN And are you prepared to proceed with your application? MR WILLS I am indeed, Sir. CHAIRMAN You may do so. MR CELINHIANHIA ZENITH MZIMELA s s EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Mr Mzimela, can you tell the honourable Committee as to why you are applying for amnesty? MR MZIMELA I have come to apply for amnesty with regard to Mr Mkhononodaka Gumede's death and I was directly involved in his death. MR WILLS Will you tell the Court the circumstances surrounding Mr Gumede's death. MR MZIMELA From 1990 when the political organisations were being unbanned, the IFP as a political organisation that existed at the time, we stay in the rural areas at the Chief's place and we believed that other political organisations were not supposed to exist and some people got involved with different political organisations and there was a conflict among these political organisations especially with regard to IFP and ANC. And Mr Gumede was the Chief's councillor. He was one of the prominent members of Inkatha in that area. And as from 1990 there were certain occurrences that took place because on one particular day there was a meeting at the Chief's place Nchinga, and Montunkosi Gumede, who was a soldier, died. Montunkosi was an ANC member. Because on that particular day that he died they said that he apparently said he was an MK soldier and they were nothing, that's why they killed him. And we have a belief that the followers were doing 4A - 11.2 this/... MR WILLS 147 MR GUMEDE this because they had taken orders from their leaders. MR WILLS This individual you said was killed, where was he killed? MR MZIMELA He was killed at Mjeti, at the Chief's place, where there was an Inkatha meeting. MR WILLS Who did the community believe killed this individual? MR MZIMELA The community believed that there were certain people from Eskhwani(?) who were shown by the local residents that this was the man. Whether he did utter those words or not I am not clear, but he was apparently against the IFP. MR WILLS Mr Mzimela, I would like you to listen very carefully to the questions I am asking you. Was there a belief that a certain political party was behind the killing of this individual, and if so, which political party? MR MZIMELA It is something that happened. It was the IFP which had convened a meeting at the Chief's place on that day. It was directly involved in the killing. MR WILLS Can you give the honourable Committee an estimate as to the date of this occurence? MR MZIMELA I don't think I will be able to be specific, but it was in mid-1990. Then in December an attack took place, another member of Inkatha, (name indistinct) Mzimela, was attacked and killed in his house together with his wife as well as his three-month old child. At that time the Chief had put one of his sons in his position. According to the information that we got it was discovered that he had been killed because he was a member of the ANC and he was mobilising the people in that area to be members of the ANC. And they said that he should be killed because 4A - 11.2 he/... MR WILLS 148 MR MZIMELA he was going to make people get aligned with the ANC. On that day that they attacked his place they went to attack a certain family by the name of Xila, whom it was discovered that they were also ANC aligned. His name was Xoto Xila. Luckily they couldn't find him at his place because he had visited a certain place. MR WILLS ... any individuals who were involved in this attack on Bonge Nkosi Panana Mzimela? MR MZIMELA Yes, when we did the follow-up as to how he was killed, we got the people who were involved and they were consequently reported to the police, but their case didn't go any further. MR WILLS Do you know the names of those people? MR MZIMELA I think it is an open secret that the Chiefs had what was called the G3's who were keeping guard over them and on that particular day they were at Chief Lindilize Mzimela Tokosani Nguni. The guns were taken from them on that day. They were taken by an induna by the name of Gabathela Dhlamini. And we asked as to where the guns had been taken to. He didn't want to explain or elaborate and he was scared, so he couldn't do anything because the guns had been taken by the higher authorities and there was a certain man known by Thawo Xila(?) who was working for the KwaZulu Government and driving the cars. We discovered that he was one of the people who was driving the cars that had gone to Bongo Nkosi Mzimela's place to attack. Mlunzani Zungu was an Induna in Makolokolo. It was discovered later on that he was present as well as Mkhononodaka Gumede. They were all there and they convened a meeting before then and they used to have camps at his house before launching attacks. It is the deceased's house. They used to convene 4A - 11.2 meetings/... MR WILLS 149 MR MZIMELA meetings at the deceased's house. MR WILLS What other incidents would you like to reveal to the Committee? MR MZIMELA When this took place, when Bonkosi was killed, because they said he should not be a Chief because he was aligned to the ANC, quite a number of other people were his followers and I was also one of his followers. We were aligned to the ANC and it was clear now that the situation was no longer conducive to being an ANC member. It was difficult for us to hide ourselves and we ended up showing the community that we were ANC aligned and we did not believe that we had to be killed simply because we were members of the ANC. It continued. We spoke to the police, as I have already mentioned some names, but the police never went to arrest those people, not even a single one of them was arrested. The very same police, Togozani Mguni was arrested but he was released the following day and that was the end of it. Then in 1991 one comrade by the name of Lucky Mhlongo, who was at Sam's place they went to attack Sam's place and shot Sam there and killed him. The people who did that were the Indunas Gambaqana Zuma, Mandla Nkosi Jaba Mzimela, Douglas Buza Mzimela as well as other people were present, but they were the prominent leaders. So that's why I remember their names. The first problem that we encountered was that as ANC members we were going to be eliminated. And we remained being aligned to the ANC and we didn't want to have any conflicts with the IFP. We used to conduct our meetings in the forests because we did not want to be detected by the Chief because the Chief was an IFP member and we kept on mobilising the community and recruiting them in a clandestine manner and they were able 4A - 11.2 to/... MR WILLS 150 MR MZIMELA to give us information as to what the plans were as far as Inkatha was concerned. Then in 1992 the IFP was holding a march at Makolokola what they call Nqabani. They said that's where they made resolutions that they were going to harass the ANC people. One of them was Gerhard Vana Mzimela, who was mentioned as the leader of the ANC because in 1991 Harry Gwala and Chris Hani came to Empangeni Hall and he took some of the comrades and that's what made him to be on the wrong side of the Inkatha. We discovered that through Alfred Nutunhlongo, who was at the meeting that was held at (indistinct) Gumede. It happened that on the 22nd February 1992 Gerald was driving his car from Mhlangubu. Because the road was passing at that man's place, he saw the people who were in that meeting but he continued to drive and he proceeded to Maqegana and went to another person called Philemon Ndoda Mzimela to tell him that he had seen Inkatha members conducting a meeting and he said he saw Nontu and he came to warn us that we should take our children away because the Inkatha was going to launch an attack and he left and went to Mhlangubu to another comrade called (indistinct) Zondi. At about six that afternoon he got those people on the road where they stopped his car and they shot him, he died instantly, and they took his car out of the road and threw it out of the road. On that very same night another group of men who were armed went to the house of a certain man who was known as a person who mobilised the community. He also owned a tuck shop and there was a belief that all those people who went into his house to buy were also directly involved in mobilising the community. And whilst he was inside the tuckshop selling he saw a man who was standing at the 4A - 11.2 doorway/... MR WILLS 151 MR MZIMELA doorway and started shooting indiscriminately. He got under the counter to try and hide himself. Then he got a chance to escape, but he was not injured in any way. Unfortunately three people who were there died and some were injured in the attack. Jongula Mhlongu is one of those who died, Puma Hahlo Mzimela as well as his wife and the others got injured. And one of the people who got injured was an IFP member. But since he got injured he realised that the IFP had actually injured him so he changed floors and joined the ANC. MR WILLS Just for clarity, Mr Mzimela. On the 3rd of December 1990, where an individual by the name of Bongo Nkosi Panana Mzimela was killed, is it correct that this individual was in fact your brother? MR MZIMELA Yes, that was my brother. We were born from separate mothers but from the same father. MR WILLS You also mentioned the death of Gerard Mzimela on the 22nd of the 2nd 1992. Is it also correct that this Gerard Mzimela was your brother as well? MR MZIMELA Yes, that is correct, he was also my brother. They were born by the same mother with Bongo Nkosi. MR WILLS In respect of the death of Gerard Mzimela, what information did you receive as to the identities of the persons responsible for his death? MR MZIMELA As I have already explained, he had seen an Inkatha meeting that was convened and he also saw Alfred Muntu Mhlongo. He is the one who told him that he was from the meeting and that a resolution had been taken that because he had taken certain comrades to the hall to speak with Chris Hani and Harry Gwala he was busy mobilising the people to be aligned with the ANC so he should be killed. 4A - 11.2 CHAIRMAN: /... MR WILLS 152 MR MZIMELA CHAIRMAN I thought the question was who was he killed by? MR MZIMELA The people who killed him were a group, but amongst them was Mr Mkhononodaka Gumede and Mike Mhlongo, Mako Hlomba Gumede who stays at Mgwelizani. He had come to kill people in that place. MR WILLS This meeting that you referred to, at whose home was this meeting held? MR MZIMELA The meeting was held at Mr Gumede's place who was a councillor in that place, that is the Chief's place. ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly clear up, I am not sure. Was the deceased in this application amongst the members who attacked his brother? MR WILLS Yes ... (inaudible) ... heard the evidence that the deceased, this Ndudaga Gumede was named by the witness in this regard. I am seeking to clarify the issue of where the initial meeting took place, and I think that will throw further light on this issue. Mr Mzimela, you must listen to the questions carefully and just answer the questions. I want to know the name of the person whose home the meeting that you referred to was held at. MR MZIMELA It was at Mr Ndudaga Gumede, the deceased. MR WILLS ... the person in respect of which this application is made. MR MZIMELA That is correct. MR WILLS I want you to tell the honourable Committee exactly what you did on the 29th of the 2nd 1992 concerning the death of Mr Gumede. MR MZIMELA As I have already explained, that on the 22nd, one of my brothers, Gerard Mzimela, died. Then it was a weekend after the 29th, we were preparing for his funeral, and Saturday morning we took the bus and went to town to 4A - 11.2 prepare/... MR WILLS 153 MR MZIMELA prepare for the funeral. It was myself, my late brother, Sibani Mzimela, Mandlagayiso Mzimela also late, Philemon Dodo Mzimela also late, and we boarded a bus. At Mr Gumede's place, as I have already mentioned, that it was close to the road. The bus stopped at the busstop. We saw him at his place. Philemon used to call him Uncle, because they were distantly related, and he said there is the Uncle and he was giving us problems. So we saw that he was there in his house. I had a gun with me and it was my gun. Sibani, my younger brother, also had a gun we had borrowed from another policeman who worked for the Murder and Robbery Squad. We decided that he was very troublesome, and we decided this was the opportunity for us to get him and we got off at the next stop, that is Sibani and myself, and the other two went to town to try and get some things to prepare for the funeral. We proceeded to his house and we had 9mm guns Parabellum. When we got into the yard we found his wife who was bending down and washing dishes and when she saw us she ran away because she saw the guns. And I heard the toilet flushing and we proceeded to the toilet. We found that he was taking a bath. I stood at the door and I shot him. The finished the first magazine and put the second one and I also shot him. And when Sibani tried to shoot his gun locked and got jammed and I took the gun away from him and I continued to shoot him. We picked up the empty or spent cartridges and we ran away. We went back to Umaqikani(?). MR WILLS Is it correct that you were the only person who was responsible for firing the shots which killed MR MZIMELA That is true, because Sibani did not shoot. When he tried to shoot his gun jammed and I took it and 4A - 11.2 continued/... MR WILLS 154 MR MZIMELA continued to shoot. MR WILLS The only two persons involved in the attack were yourself and Sibani, although Sibani didn't shoot at the time. MR MZIMELA That is true. MR WILLS Did you shoot anybody else at the kraal that day? MR MZIMELA Unfortunately no. MR WILLS (Inaudible) MR MZIMELA No, not other persons. MR WILLS Can you explain to the Committee why you actually killed this individual? MR MZIMELA As I have related what happened in that area, we were not in good terms, the ANC and the Inkatha. Inkatha didn't want the ANC in that area. As I've told you that Mr Gumede was the Chief's councillor in that area. He was together with the Booi Mzimela Kampaqele. All these people were involved in the killings of the comrades. MR WILLS I just want you to give the Committee a few details as regards your involvement with the ANC. When did you first join the ANC? MR MZIMELA As I have explained, that when all the liberal organisations were unbanned, that's when we started being active. We joined the ANC. From 1990 to 1992 we had an organisation committee and we launched our branch officially. There I was a general secretary on the Ongoye Branch, ANC Youth League. MR WILLS Did you have any meetings during 1990 as ANC members concerning the violence in your area? MR MZIMELA Yes, we did, even though there were few because we were few, other people were dead, that's when we got united. We used to hold these meetings in bushes or 4A - 11.2 forests/... MR WILLS 155 MR MZIMELA forests. MR WILLS You have testified to the effect that there was a lot of violence going on in your area and that this violence was politically related. What steps did you decide to take at these meetings as regards this violence? MR MZIMELA (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 4B) ... because we realised that the police were not caring a damn about it because most of the incidents we used to know who were involved and we were telling the police and the police were ignoring those things. Myself, I used to take care on that part because I was trained under the SNDF. MR WILLS Turning to your family ... former Chief in that area, is that correct? MR MZIMELA That's correct. My father was Lindelishele Mzimela. MR WILLS Is it not a tradition that the first born son of the first wife becomes Chief? MR MZIMELA It is like that. MR WILLS Is it also true that Bongo Nkosi Panana Mzimela was in fact the traditional heir to your father? MR MZIMELA It was supposed to be like that. MR WILLS Can you tell the Court why he didn't succeed? MR MZIMELA As I have already explained, that they decided to kill Bongo Nkosi because he was aligned to the ANC and they decided that it was going to be a mistake if he takes over. And the Chief who was there was very sick and he was in Nqgwelizani Hospital and then he told his Indunas who must take over, so he told them it must be Booi. They knew that this was going to cause conflict because Bongo Nkosi was still alive, that's when they decided to kill him. CHAIRMAN What is Booi's surname? 4B - 11.2 MR MZIMELA: /... MR WILLS 156 MR MZIMELA MR MZIMELA Which Booi? Booi Mzimela. CHAIRMAN Is it Booi Mzimela? MR MZIMELA Booi Mzimela. MR WILLS Which political party is Booi Mzimela aligned to? MR MZIMELA Inkatha. MR WILLS And why do you think he was nominated by your father to succeed him? MR MZIMELA I think it is because the late KwaZulu Government believed that every Chief should be Inkatha that's why then they chose Booi Mzimela my brother, because he was an Inkatha, that's when they decided that Bongo Nkosi wasn't going to be a right Chief because he was an ANC. MR WILLS Thank you, Mr Chairperson and hon members. I have no further evidence in chief at this stage. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS MS KHAMPEPE Can I just get some clarity, Mr Wills. Your witness has referred to a Chief who was sick at the time. Would that be his father? Is he making reference to his father? MR WILLS That is correct. MR MZIMELA Yes, that's correct, that's my father Lindelishle Mzimela. MR WILLS If we could just clarify this. Lindelishle Mzimela, when did he die? MR MZIMELA If I am not mistaken, it was June 1993 because he was sick. MR WILLS How long before his death did he nominate Booi Mzimela to be his successor? MR MZIMELA It was a very short time, because he was sick when he said this. He died in 1993, but he said so in 1990. And the person who took over his duties was Booi. In 1990 4B - 11.2 Booi/... MR WILLS 157 MR MZIMELA Booi took over officially. CHAIRMAN Booi took over officially while your father was still alive. MR MZIMELA Yes, that's correct. CHAIRMAN Any questions? CROSS-EXAMINED BY MS THABETHE Mr Mzimela, I want you to clarify something for the Committee. The deceased was Chief Chancellor at Makoloko Reserve, is that correct? MR MZIMELA That's correct. MS THABETHE Your father was Chief where, where was he Chief? In the same area? MR MZIMELA That's correct. MS THABETHE What was the relationship between your father and the deceased? MR MZIMELA There is an Induna and councillors in every area. Like I said he was a chief councillor. It is not like he was above the Chief. MS THABETHE ... under your father's wing. MR MZIMELA That is correct. MS THABETHE ... evidence by you in connection with your brother's death and in connection with the IFP/ANC wars in your areas. But what I am not clear about is why was specifically the deceased killed in relation to everything you've said? Can you explain that to the Committee? MR MZIMELA As I have explained that he was the leader of the Inkatha people. And they had a meeting and that's where they killed my brother who was also a soldier. As I've explained this went on until my brother Bongo Nkosi was killed and some people who attended those meetings used to tell us most of those meetings were held in his place. MS THABETHE ... that Mkhononodaka was involved in the 4B - 11.2 killings/... MS THABETHE 158 MR MZIMELA killings of your brothers, is that correct? MR MZIMELA That's correct. MS THABETHE That's correct. MS THABETHE What proof did you have of this hearsay that Mr Gumede was die person who was involved in killing your brothers? MR MZIMELA It is obvious and it was obvious at that time. People who used to attend those meetings. And in these meetings that's where decisions were taken that they should kill these ANC people, as I have already mentioned some of the meetings which were held at his house or his place. It wasn't everyone who attended those meetings who agreed with this, so they used to come back to us and tell us who said who to kill. MS THABETHE You refer to meetings of the IFP that were held at Chief Gumede's place, that is the late Gumede. As far as I know the tradition is if you are a Chief the meetings of the community are usually held at the Chief's place. Were there such meetings that were held actually, community meetings before? MR MZIMELA I think you are asking the right person if you are asking like that, because I know most of the meetings were held at Chief's place, at my father's place, and these meetings were different. In the old KwaZulu Government, all the Chiefs were Inkatha members. Mr Gumede was a Chief's councillor and the councillor has the right to call a meeting and these meetings were to ... (break in recording) ... so he like to further the aims of the organisation. MS THABETHE You didn't report it to the police? You didn't try and investigate it? You decided that this was true and you proceeded with plans to revenge. 4B - 11.2 MR MZIMELA: /... MS THABETHE 159 MR MZIMELA MR MZIMELA I think you are asking me, like I explained to you, all these incidents which took place at the area, no single one where the police took a stand we reported. I even explained to you that a policeman who was guarding a Chief, one of them was taken by us to the police to explain and all the people who were implicated in the police never did a thing about it. Police never arrested anyone. Also in Gerald's incident, I was there, and he was killed on Saturday evening. The next day, Sunday, we told the police, we explained everything to the police, we gave the police e every information we had, but nothing was done. And after the meetings people were telling us whatever decisions which were taken there and we used to tell the police all this. And were told that there were guns which came by a Citi Golf from Ngwelizane. One guy's name was Makothombani and he is well-known because he was a killer. Police were told about this, nothing happened. The following week my brother was killed. Even though we reported before time to the police, nothing was happening. I think even if you are lying to the police the police must prove if you are lying to them. MS THABETHE Was the deceased killed because he gave instructions that your brothers must be killed, or because he actually was involved in the killing? Can you make that clarification please? MR MZIMELA He was the one who was taking the decisions and giving the instructions and he was personally involved, he was there when he was killed. CHAIRMAN This man the deceased, was your father's counsellor. MR MZIMELA Yes, he was. CHAIRMAN Who was the one that actually killed Gerald? 4B - 11.2 MR MZIMELA: /... CHAIRMAN 160 MR MZIMELA MR MZIMELA As I have explained, a mob was there and Mr Gumede was there and he was a leader as well. Makhothlom Gumede from Ngwelizane and he is Gumede's son. He went to fetch him from Ngwelizane to do what he did. There were many people. Some of them I don't remember their names. CHAIRMAN And in respect of the death of your other brother? MR MZIMELA What we heard is that there was a meeting at Mr Gumede's house and a decision was taken that Bong Nkosi must be killed. Dawuxele was there. CHAIRMAN (Inaudible) MR MZIMELA I will be lying if I can name one person because it was a mob. They came by night with cars. CHAIRMAN ... at the time? MR MZIMELA I wasn't there, I was at work. CHAIRMAN Where? MR MZIMELA SADF at Mtulo. CHAIRMAN The decision to kill the deceased, was that your own decision? MR MZIMELA Yes, it was mine. CHAIRMAN Precisely how did you kill him? MR MZIMELA It was Saturday morning on the 29th. I was with my late brothers, Sabani Manglagayiso Philemon. We took a bus to Empangeni. We were going to buy some stuff which we needed for the funeral of Gerald. The bus stopped next to Mr Gumede's house and I saw Mr Gumede outside his yard and then I told my brothers that there he was, Mr Gumede. Because it was difficult to see Mr Gumede and since he was killing comrades I told my brothers this was a convenient time for me to go visit him. I had a gun, a licensed gun and Sabani, my brother, also had a gun 4B - 11.2 belonging/... MS THABETHE 161 MR MZIMELA belonging to another policeman. We agreed that we must go and see Mr Gumede and then we said we must go and try to kill him because people were scared of killing him. We went there. We passed his house and then we used the back entrance. We took our guns out. We went inside his house and his wife was washing dishes and then she ran away. I heard a toilet flushing. I went there. When we arrived there that's when I started shooting at him. I finished the first magazine and Sabani, my younger brother, tried to shoot him as well, and he failed and then I put another magazine. I finished it. I took Sabani's gun. I finished that magazine as well. That's when we ran away back to Maxigani, at Sabani's house. I will be lying if I can tell you how much because one magazine had 15 and then the second one only seven rounds were left. And then another one had 15 as well. I think only one was left. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Mzimela, you went to town specifically to attend to the funeral arrangement of your late brother on that day. MR MZIMELA That's correct. MS KHAMPEPE Yet you were armed and your brother Philemon was also armed. MR MZIMELA Yes, like I said, my gun was a licensed gun, only Sabani's gun, which belonged to another policeman, and the situation was so bad and tense that we were supposed to be armed all the time. MS KHAMPEPE Did you travel with your firearms all the time? MR MZIMELA That's correct. MR WILLS Mr Chairman, there is one more issue that I would just like to raise, if it is possible at this stage. 4B - 11.2 CHAIRMAN: /... MR WILLS 162 MR MZIMELA CHAIRMAN Yes. MR WILLS These IFP meetings, how were they called and who called them? MR MZIMELA The only person who had rights to call meetings was the Chief. The Chief will do this by telling the Chief's counsellor. The Chief's counsellor also had rights to call meetings. He used to call meetings at his house. Like I have already told you that decisions were taken at his house as to who must be eliminated. MR WILLS Can you tell the Committee what would happen if persons didn't go to those meetings? MR MZIMELA People who never attended these meetings received letters from Mr Gumede. He used to tell them that they must choose whether they want to stay in that area or to leave the area. For example, Beki Xhosa, who was our chairperson, his house was targeted by Mr Gumede. He used to write these letters to his house. CHAIRMAN Who was it, which person was it? To whom was such a letter written? MR MZIMELA Mr Gumede used to write these letters to people who never attended his meetings. He used to tell them they must choose whether they want to stay there or to die. And one family, Xulu's family, received that letter and they left that place and people don't know where he went. MR WILLS Just one final issue. Mr Mzimela, you have killed a person. His relatives are here. How do you feel about this now? MR MZIMELA Mr Gumede's death is really disturbing me. I never had any aim or object to kill someone, but the way the IFP was killing people in our area, we had no choice. We had to defend ourselves because they were killing us, 4B - 11.2 attacking/... MR WILLS 163 MR MZIMELA attacking us all the time. MR WILLS No more questions from Mr Chairperson. MS THABETHE Mr Mzimela, I am not saying amnesty will be granted to you and I am not saying amnesty will not be granted to you. But should amnesty be granted to you, are you going to go back to that area you were staying in? MR MZIMELA I will be very much happy if this Commission can grant me amnesty. As to going back to that area, I don't think I will. I will go back to Eskaweni and only if the situation down there is cooled down that's when I will go back, but now I am scared. MS THABETHE ... on behalf of the victims, because as I mentioned earlier on, I consulted with them. They raised a concern with me that what if you come after them. Do you have any comments on that? MR MZIMELA With all due respect to your Committee, Mrs Gumede is my witness, she was at her yard that day. I didn't say a thing to her because she didn't do anything to me. The person I was after was her husband and I don't have anything against Mrs Gumede. It will be a mistake if today I can go back and want to kill her. I don't have any reason why to go after Mrs Gumede and in all this incidents which happened, Mrs Gumede wasn't involved at all. CHAIRMAN What about the children of the deceased? MR MZIMELA To all the family members, I would like to tell them that I am very sorry and unfortunately I don't know his children and the only person that I can talk about in all these incidents is Mrs Gumede and I don't have a reason to go after her. MS THABETHE The next of kin of the victims would like to say something. 4B - 11.2 CHAIRMAN: /... MS THABETHE 164 MR MZIMELA CHAIRMAN Yes. ADV DE JAGER There is one thing that is not quite clear to me. The deceased was a counsellor for your father, is that correct? MR MZIMELA That's correct. ADV DE JAGER And he called meetings on behalf or instructions of your father. MR MZIMELA There were some meetings which were called by Mr Gumede and he received those instructions from my father and there were some other meetings where he himself will just call those meetings. ADV DE JAGER Were all those meetings held at your father's house? MR MZIMELA Some of them. If it was my father who called those meetings, those meetings were held at his place, at my father's place. If it was Mr Gumede they were held at Mr Gumede's place. ADV DE JAGER And the resolutions taken to kill I presume was taken at your father's house. MR MZIMELA Unfortunately no. People used to tell us who went to these meetings ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 5A) It is not easy for me to talk on behalf of my father because he never told me, but what I believe is that he couldn't have taken such decisions that his sons must be killed. Things started changing when my father elected Booi to take over. But I don't think he is the one who said Bongo Nkosi must be killed. And what I am sure of is that these (indistinct) were taken. I don't know why the police who were safeguarding my father had no guns that night. CHAIRMAN Did you ever discuss this with your father? MR MZIMELA No, I didn't talk with my father. My brother 5A - 11.2 Eward/... CHAIRMAN 165 MR MZIMELA Eward was still alive and traditionally he was the one who was supposed to talk to my father in matters like that. MS KHAMPEPE You didn't send your brother to talk about this with your father? MR MZIMELA No, I didn't, but he also took that decision to go and speak with my father. MS KHAMPEPE Isn't it a fact that you were adversely affected by the conflict in your area. Your family was in fact divided into two, with some family members supporting the IFP and some family members supporting the ANC. MR MZIMELA That's correct. MS KHAMPEPE And isn't it a fact that the meeting which were convened by the Chief counsellor, the late Mr Gumede, wherein various decisions were taken to eliminate your brothers, were in fact convened at his own instance and at his residence and not at your father's residence? MR MZIMELA I think so. MS KHAMPEPE ... Mr Mzimela, we want you to tell us. MR MZIMELA Like I explained, that we used to get reports about these meetings and these reports used to come back with decisions as to who to eliminate and all those meetings were held at Mr Gumede's house, not at my father's house. At Mr Gumede's house, that is where the decisions of eliminating my brothers were taken. JUDGE WILSON ... that Booi took over I think as Chief in 1990. MR MZIMELA That's correct. JUDGE WILSON And was your father not able to perform the functions of Chief after that? MR MZIMELA Yes, that's correct, he was sickly, very sick. And Booi took over until 1991, he was officially put as a 5A - 11.2 Chief/... JUDGE WILSON 166 MR MZIMELA Chief. JUDGE WILSON And is it also correct that ... told us about your brother Hewitt Gwenge was killed in May 1992. MR MZIMELA Yes, that's correct. JUDGE WILSON And your youngest brother Sabani was stabbed in February 1994. MR MZIMELA That's correct. JUDGE NGOEPE What did you hope to achieve by killing the deceased? MR MZIMELA The way things were happening, I thought it was going to be better if he was not alive, because he was the one who was behind all these killings. JUDGE NGOEPE Was there any improvement of the situation after his death? MR MZIMELA There was no improvement, it got worse. Because it was for the first time that the IFP lost someone who was a leader. It got worse than before because the IFP experienced this for the first time, losing someone who was a leader. JUDGE NGOEPE (Inaudible) MR MZIMELA That's when they got out and they were not hiding anything and they said because I did that everyone who was an ANC member must be killed in that area. JUDGE NGOEPE ... and this may be wrong, I got the impression that you were not very enthusiastic in referring or acknowledging the late Chief as your father. MR MZIMELA That is not true. That could be a mistake if it was conveyed as being so. JUDGE NGOEPE I was just wondering whether the conflict could have gone that far. Anyway, I accept that I could be wrong. 5A - 11.2 CHAIRMAN: /... 167 CHAIRMAN Thank you. MR WILLS No re-examination. Thank you, Sir. MS THABETHE Chairperson, should I proceed to call the victim's next-of-kin? CHAIRMAN Is the applicant not calling any other witness? MR WILLS The applicant will not call another witness at this stage, thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRMAN Very well. MRS ELIZABETH GUMEDE s s EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mrs Gumede, is there anything that you would like to say before this honourable Commission? MRS GUMEDE Yes. MS THABETHE Could you please continue? MRS GUMEDE I want to say that I saw the applicant coming to my place and he had come to kill my husband. I heard him say yes, and when I looked up, because I was looking down, I saw him firing. He fired twice and that's when I ran away. MS THABETHE Who was saying yes? MRS GUMEDE He is the one, that is the applicant, the killer. MS THABETHE You may continue. MRS GUMEDE At the time I didn't know him, but when the police came to investigate the matter I told them as to what he was wearing and I further conveyed that I did not know him. They went to look out for him but they couldn't get him. They got two men and I said these were not the ones. And the second time they brought him. MS THABETHE I think if you would like to ask the Commission or put any reason forth as to why the applicant 5A - 11.2 shouldn't/... MS THABETHE 168 MRS E GUMEDE shouldn't be granted amnesty. MRS GUMEDE What I want to know is, I did hear his testimony as he spoke, but I personally as the person who stayed with my husband, I am going to deny all that the applicant has said as he mentioned certain meetings where resolutions were taken for certain people to be eliminated. As he was not present he could say that because he did not know what happened in those meetings. My wish was that this applicant should know that whatever he did, he did it because of the people who hated my husband. The brothers that he is referring to, in the first place my husband was at Ngwelazani Hospital at the time that they died. He was there admitted for three months, and the other ones, that is the two following, especially the one who died at Mzimduzu, I was at my place together with my husband and we heard some gunshots beside the road and I was inside the house, I was cooking. I went out and ran to my husband. After quite some time we heard screams from the Mhlongo family of Mhlongo Place. MS THABETHE Are there any meetings that were held in your house? MRS GUMEDE The meetings that used to be held there according to my own knowledge, were meetings with regard to the Chief's monies or Chief's collections, meetings where people had brought their matters to be solved or problems or cases. And the Chief would deal with those cases and they were passed on to the Induna. That is all I know about the meetings that took place. MS THABETHE Were you always present at the meetings? MRS GUMEDE Yes, I was always present because the meetings were held in my yard and even women were allowed to attend 5A - 11.2 those/... MS THABETHE 169 MRS E GUMEDE those meetings. MS THABETHE Is there anything else that you would like to say? MRS GUMEDE Yes. I would like to point out and clarify to the applicant that he killed my husband for no particular reason. As he has already explained, we heard the attacks but my husband was not present. We saw a car coming from Nqewani and this car wanted to pass through a bridge and when the other car which was coming from International came and it took a U-turn and went back to the other car which was standing at that time and that is where they started fighting. And when there was quiet the other car went back and we were watching the attack that took place between these cars. When the other cars came to pass through the bridge and some came to watch the incident and the police also came, I want to clarify that my husband was not present at that time. The applicant was misled by certain people who hated my husband. MS THABETHE Are you through? MRS GUMEDE Yes, I am. MR WILLS Mr Gumede, you have seen me prior to this day in the court proceedings at Matubatuba. Mrs Gumede, both my client and myself are very sorry for the incident that occurred and I don't want to and I don't intend to in any way show any disrespect towards you by cross-examining you on the evidence before this Commission. I don't think it would be appropriate. But on behalf of my client I am instructed to convey his wish that there can be real peace in the area and that this violence can stop. Thank you. Mr Chairperson, the applicant has requested if he 5A - 11.2 could/... MR WILLS 170 MRS E GUMEDE could say something at this stage, is this permissible? CHAIRMAN Does he wish to say something this Commission or to this witness? MR WILLS To the witness, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRMAN He may do so. MR WILLS Thank you. MR MZIMELA Mrs Gumede, I respect you very much. I just want to say how deeply hurt and regretful I am because you have lost your husband and a friend. That was not my aim to just kill your husband. It was the situation that forced me to behave in the manner that I did. As I have already pointed out before, that I wish that you could be free because you were present when this took place. You saw that you were not directly involved and I could not find any reason to attack you and I do not have any plans to do so in the future. I wish to express my sincere apologies to you. I thank this honourable Commission for having granted me the chance to address Mrs Gumede. JUDGE NGOEPE Mrs Gumede, was your husband a member of the IFP? MRS GUMEDE He was the Chief's counsellor. JUDGE NGOEPE Does that automatically mean that he must have been a member of the IFP? MRS GUMEDE Yes, he was a member of the IFP. JUDGE NGOEPE Was he an active member of the IFP? MRS GUMEDE According to my observation I think he was a member of Inkatha and he was prominent. And I don't know how to put it. I think this whole thing was some sort of excitement. I don't know whether he knew the significance of being a member of Inkatha. JUDGE NGOEPE You have just said that ... did he hold any 5A - 11.2 office?/... JUDGE NGOEPE 171 MRS E GUMEDE office? Was he a chairman or secretary or something? MRS GUMEDE He was not educated and as a result he couldn't hold any particular position. CHAIRMAN Was he a leader of his people in Inkatha? MRS GUMEDE According to my own observation I think I could say that he was a leader but I don't know what being a leader means. Maybe if you could specify. CHAIRMAN He was someone to whom others came for advice and people followed his advice. MRS GUMEDE Yes, people used to come to my place and ask for help and also with regard to their cases or their matters or whatever conflict there existed within the community. CHAIRMAN Has the question of reconciliation been explained to her? I think earlier on you've told us but would you not want to put any questions to her in that regard? MS THABETHE I basically explained how the Amnesty Committee works, in general basically. I didn't get into details. MRS GUMEDE Yes, I have heard. May I say something with regard to this Commission? I do hear him apologising and saying that he wanted to be granted amnesty. I am not the only one. His brother is also present and I want to say that this amnesty, I personally as the widow of Mr Gumede, I am under the Chief, I cannot come here and say that you may be granted amnesty, because I fall under the Chief and therefore cannot represent myself and I have children who are not going to school now because of the shortage of funds and my husband did not have any relatives. Now I do not know as to what should happen. And I do understand that he wants to go and maintain his kids because his brothers were 5A - 11.2 also/... ADV DE JAGER 172 MRS E GUMEDE also killed. ADV DE JAGER Mrs Gumede, could I ask the members of the Rehabilitation and Reconciliation Commission, there is one of them sitting next to you, could you kindly give a full statement to them to explain what your financial position is and what's the position of your children so that they could report back to the Commission in order to see whether anything could be done to assist you. MRS GUMEDE I will explain that they are not attending school. I don't have a place of abode and I can't keep head above water. My house was burnt down. And where I am working I only get R200 per month and my busfare is R70.99 per month and I only have R100 to take home and I cannot maintain my children on that amount. (BACKGROUND NOISE) MS KHAMPEPE We shall request you to please behave yourselves because this is not a joke and we cannot laugh. Can we please behave ourselves accordingly. CHAIRMAN She has already been told the person sitting next to her represents a committee. If she thinks that she requires assistance from that committee she must give details and whatever particulars are required to the members of that committee. Does she understand that? MRS GUMEDE Yes, I do. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. She can go down. MR WILLS Mr Chairperson, my submissions will be very brief. I submit, with respect that the evidence before the honourable Commission is such that ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 5b) ... The applicant has satisfied the requirements for the granting of amnesty in respect of the deed that he committed. I submit that he has fully disclosed his involvement. He has answered questions honestly and without 5B - 11.2 any/... MR WILLS 173 ADDRESS any attempt whatsoever to evade his own responsibility for these actions. At no stage has he attempted to blame anybody else and he has been truthful as regards the fact that this was not committed on the orders of any other person, but that it was his own decision. In addition, Mr Chairperson, I am of the view that the evidence before the Committee is such that it is clear that this incident arose directly out of the political conflict that has ravaged this part of the country and it is my respectful submission that had this conflict not existed then this incident clearly would not have taken place. That is the extent of my submissions, Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Suppose he was misinformed about the involvement of the deceased, and that the deceased was not at all involved in the killings of his brothers, could that have any bearing on his own motivation? MR WILLS Motivation is, with respect, obviously something which is a personal appreciation. If he had been misinformed, with respect, his motivation would have still been political but it would have been made on a misinformed basis. I think, however, that there is evidence before the Commission which indicates that it is improbable that he was misinformed, and to that extent I cite the evidence of the deceased's widow who indicated that her husband was a prominent Inkatha person. I also ask the Commission to take note of the fact that in the area at the time, particularly in rural areas in northern KwaZulu/Natal, it was in fact very difficult to organise for the ANC and that prominent members of the Inkatha Freedom Party did in fact restrict the political freedom of association of the ANC in those 5A - 11.2 areas/... MR WILLS 174 ADDRESS areas. ADV DE JAGER Isn't the impression created that he acted to revenge the death of his two brothers and his family? MR WILLS That was a question I thought myself for some time. Clearly there is that element where unfortunately his brothers were killed in the violence. However, there are two reason why I think that it was not simply a personal revenge. The first is that the very nature of the conflict in the area had in fact divided the Mzimela clan along political lines. And had it not been this political division, his brothers would not have been killed in the first instance. ADV DE JAGER Mr Wills, I am inclined to agree with you that we should differentiate between personal revenge and perhaps political motivated revenge, is that the point you are trying to make? MR WILLS I don't think it is as simple as revenge. I cannot deny that there is an element of revenge in the attack - in the applicant's motivation - but clearly it goes further than that. The second point that I wanted to make is that he has testified to the Commission that he was involved in organising for the ANC generally and that the deceased in this matter he saw as a major obstacle towards this organisation. With those two factors I submit with respect that there was more to his actions than simply revenge, be it personal or political. JUDGE NGOEPE Maybe in all fairness to your submissions, Mr Wills, with regard to the question whether or not it was not just purely for the purpose of revenge, I think your 5B - 11.2 question/... MR WILLS 175 ADDRESS question was asked of him what he had hoped to achieve, and I think his answer shows that he had a greater objective than just a personal revenge, isn't it? MR WILLS That is correct, I recall that now. Thank you for that. JUDGE NGOEPE And also I think twice, on my counting, he had said, rightly or wrongly, I don't know whether that is true, but twice on my counting he has said that the deceased had killed many comrades. I don't know whether the accusation is true, but the applicant on two occasions has said that the deceased had killed many comrades. MR WILLS Yes, that is indeed the applicant's belief. CHAIRMAN So you concede that there was an element of revenge in this matter, but it was against a background of political conflict. MR WILLS Yes, Mr Chairperson, that is indeed so. I submit that as a result - the close relationship that existed between the applicant and his two brothers, he must have been very traumatised by their death. However, in view of his political involvement, and the general political situation that pertained in that area, particularly emphasising the fact that the applicant was one of the first organisers for the ANC in that area, he was one of the prime movers which later in 1992 resulted in the formation of a branch structure, a formal branch structure. I think that his evidence to the effect that his concern far exceeded the personal aspects of this tragedy. JUDGE WILSON Isn't it also a case, as one we've had before, where one must not overlook the tribal politics involved. One must not overlook the fact that he and his brothers were the sons of the previous Chief, were the 5B - 11.2 people/... MR WILLS 176 ADDRESS people who would in the ordinary course of events have become the Chief and that there was apparently a deliberate attempt to kill the whole line. Three of his brothers had been killed, including the elder brother who should have been the heir. So it was not only just a personal family it was the line of the Chief's sons and that is one of the reasons I think he said he wanted to stop this killing. MR WILLS Yes, that is indeed so, Sir. I think this is a particular tragedy in that it is a clear example of where different political persuasions have caused dramatic divisions within a family and line of Chiefs and obviously this has added to the intensity of the problem. CHAIRMAN He said it had been decreed that all Chiefs had to be members of Inkatha. MR WILLS Yes, clearly his belief was to that extent. I think the Committee can take judicial notice of the fact that by far the majority of Chiefs in KwaZulu/Natal are indeed Inkatha supporters. CHAIRMAN Is there anything you wish to say. MS THABETHE Members of the Committee, all I want to say is according to the Act there should be full disclosure of the act committed, and the act must be associated with a political objective. In my opinion the applicant has made full disclosure of why and how he killed the deceased. On the question of whether we can have evidence as to whether the deceased was involved in the killings of ANC, it is a fact that we may never know. And we have no evidence to the contrary. Even though the applicant was not acting under any orders, we cannot ignore the fact that unfortunately in the northern KwaZulu/Natal areas IFP and 5B - 11.2 ANC/... MS THABETHE 177 ADDRESS ANC war fights are a problem, such that most of the time the members of the supporters are faced with having to partake without getting any orders. I don't think it is my duty really to say whether amnesty can be granted against him. I think that is clearly the Committee's function. CHAIRMAN But you can tell us if you think amnesty ought not to be granted. MS THABETHE I was just about to say I think the requirements of the Act have been met, but I reserve my opinion whether it ought not to or it ought to be granted. Thank you. MS KHAMPEPE Ms Thabethe, I thought you earlier on opened your submissions by stating that in your opinion the applicant had complied with the requirements of the Act. MS THABETHE Yes. MS KHAMPEPE Particularly with regard to full disclosure. MS THABETHE Yes, I did say so. Nevertheless, I would like to reserve my opinion as to whether it ought not to be granted or it ought to be granted. CHAIRMAN Very well. Have you nothing further to say? MS THABETHE Nothing further to say, Chairperson. CHAIRMAN Mr Wills, anything you wish to add? MR WILLS Nothing further thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRMAN The Committee will consider this application and in due course give its decision. Thank you. This Committee now stands adjourned until tomorrow morning at 09:15. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS TO 12.2.1997 AT 09:15 5B - 11.2 ON RESUMPTION:/... 178 ON RESUMPTION ON 12 FEBRUARY 1997 - PIETERMARITZBURG MS THABETHE Members of the Committee, the two applicants who appear before us today are applying for amnesty regarding events that occurred at Mdaleni Magoda and Townlands areas where seven kraals were attacked. It happened on 23 June 1991. The applicants are not represented, so I will assist them in leading evidence. ADV DE JAGER Were they informed that they are entitled to representation and that they could get Legal Aid? MS THABETHE As far as I know from the Durban IU they were informed and we did send Form 2 to the prisons informing them that they can get legal representation if they want to. So yes, they were. JUDGE WILSON Were the other people who were convicted with them informed? CHAIRMAN Or have they applied? MS THABETHE Unfortunately I don't have that information. I don't know if they did apply or not, but as far as I know I don't have any information to that effect. Mr Ashley says he has called the Durban office to find out if there are any applications, but as far as we know in Cape Town we haven't received any. CHAIRMAN Very well. They can be sworn in. JUDGE WILSON Sorry, before that. What are they applying for amnesty for? MS THABETHE Member of the Committee, actually it is the first question I would like to ask them. JUDGE WILSON We would like to know before we hear it. CHAIRMAN What do they say on the application form? MS THABETHE I would refer the Committee members to No 9 1A -12.2 of/.. MS THABETHE 179 ADDRESS of Gumbi's application, the translated version. JUDGE WILSON I have great difficulty. He there says: "What I did resulted in my arrest, namely murder and I committed this crime". It would appear there he is referring to a single crime ... attempted murder and six counts of murder. But as I read it Zuma was also convicted of robbery with aggravating circumstances. Is he applying for amnesty in respect of that? Aren't these matters that must be clarified before the application can be heard? MS THABETHE As I said before, I was going to clarify that when I lead evidence what crimes are they applying for, because from their applications they are talking of crimes that they did, but it is not clear which ones they are referring to. CHAIRMAN I think in fairness, so that their own minds are focused when they are giving evidence on the crimes for which they are in fact applying for amnesty, that you should take those details from them now before we start the hearing. Take the particulars of the people who were involved, the victims and the circumstances. As things stand, when we have before us among the papers, part of their application form in one of the official languages and part of it translated into English, and yet there does not seem to be sufficient clarity on precisely what offences because if we are required to give amnesty we can only do so in respect of specific offences. I think that should be cleared up before you start leading evidence and you can then tell us before you start leading evidence as to what the offences are in respect of each one of them. Will you do that? MS THABETHE I will do that. 1A - 12.2 CHAIRMAN: /... MS THABETHE 180 ADDRESS CHAIRMAN We will take a short adjournment to enable you to do that. ADV DE JAGER And could you kindly enquire too whether they have in fact been informed of their right to be legally represented and that they have a right to legal assistance through the Legal Aid Board. MS THABETHE I will do that. CHAIRMAN It seems to me clear that these other people, from the information you have, have not applied for amnesty. MS THABETHE I am not aware that they have applied for amnesty. CHAIRMAN I thought that it was possible from your Mr Ashley that that could be ascertained. MR ASHLEY They are checking on that now. JUDGE NGOEPE This happened many years ago and the applicant and others were charged on a number of counts and most probably they won't even know the names of the individual houses. What you could do is to look at page 61, you will see a complete indictment. MS THABETHE I have it with me, of all the people that were involved. JUDGE NGOEPE The counts and the victims in each count. Maybe you should discuss it with him along those lines. In all probability he is applying for amnesty in respect of those specific counts set out in the indictment. MS KHAMPEPE Ms Thabethe, do they have copies of the documents that they wrote to the Commission? MS THABETHE I am not aware. I will find out from them. CHAIRMAN We will adjourn to enable you to sort this out. You will call us in as soon as you are read. COMMISSION ADJOURNS 1A - 12.2 <U>ON RESUMPTION /... MS THABETHE 181 ADDRESS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRMAN What have you to say to us? MS THABETHE Members of the Committee, I have spoken to the applicants and they don't have legal representation. After discussing with them and after finding out that they do not have the relevant documents to represent themselves, we decided that it is going to be in their best interest to postpone the matter. I have gone further to speak to Mr Hlengwe, who is supposedly their attorney, to find out if the problem is the time today that he can't appear for them or he won't be appearing for them in any case and he said to me the problem is he cannot appear today. He can try tomorrow or on Friday. So I want to put forward to the Committee, if it is possible. CHAIRMAN Do you know whether he has consulted with his clients and whether he has prepared himself to appear for them? MS THABETHE As far as I know he hasn't consulted with his clients nor has he got documentation to be ready for them today. But what he says to me is he can get the relevant documents and he can represent them tomorrow or on Friday. CHAIRMAN Speaking for myself, I think it will be a futile exercise to expect the attorney to come the next day or the day after without having had any consultation with his clients without any concept of the enormity of the matter and the importance of it for him to be adequately prepared so that they can have their case sufficiently well presented. JUDGE WILSON Did he appear for them at the trial. Has he dealt with them before? 1A - 12.2 MS THABETHE: /... MS THABETHE 182 ADDRESS MS THABETHE Can I ask the question to them directly? JUDGE WILSON Did Mr Hlengwe, your attorney, was he your attorney during the trial? ANSWER No, we were not represented by him. CHAIRMAN Who was representing you? ANSWER It was Blomkampf. CHAIRMAN Did you try to ask Blomkampf to appear on your behalf? ANSWER No, we did not request him because he is from the Legal Aid Centre. We thought that the attorney of the organisation would represent us as we had already contacted him. MS THABETHE Members of the Committee, one more concern that was raised by the applicants to me is the fact that if they miss this opportunity they don't know when they are going to get an opportunity to appear in front of the Committee. I stressed that it is not going to be in their best interest to appear without legal representation. ADV DE JAGER On our present schedule, is there a date set down already for Kwa-Zulu/Natal? MS THABETHE No. MS KHAMPEPE May I take this opportunity to address you, Mr Zuma and Mr Gumbi, to just explain to you that this opportunity that you have been given today is a very important opportunity, but that does not mean that if your matter is not dealt with today and is postponed, you will not be able to get another chance before this Commission. It is very important that you be made aware that the legal requirements that you must meet to show that your deeds or your transgressions are with regard to political activity or your past political activity. So if your legal 1A - 12.2 representative/... MS KHAMPEPE 183 ADDRESS representative is not present who will be able to help you in rendering your testimony and telling this Committee with regard to those political activities, and that the legal requirements that govern this Committee should be met fully or should be dealt with extensively. That this opportunity is for real and you should not waste it. When you come before this Committee you see how many papers or how much documentation we have in front of us and this documentation as you are sitting there you must also have it. You will not be able to relate to this committee with regard to the offences if you do not have the necessary documentation. Even your attorney, if you do get one, should be furnished with the necessary documentation and be able to conduct a consultation with you so that he can be able to represent you fruitfully. So you must not be in a hurry to go on with the matter without legal representation. We realise that it would not be in your best interests for us to do so. We hope that whatever I have explained to you is clear. ANSWER Yes, it is clear. MS KHAMPEPE Is there anything else that you want to say? ANSWER There is nothing that we want to say. MS KHAMPEPE Do you agree that Ms Thabethe's advice is quite sound that the matter should be postponed? ANSWER Yes, we do. MS KHAMPEPE So that if the matter is postponed there should be some efforts that you get legal representation, Mr Hlengwe, or whoever is going to appear on your behalf, will be able to be notified and you will also be notified on a date that is going to be set for the hearing. ANSWER Yes, we would appreciate that. 1A - 12.2 CHAIRMAN: /... 184 CHAIRMAN The matter will be adjourned for the very, very sound and good reasons that have been given to you. Every effort will be made to find a suitable date without too much delay though it is not possible today for me to tell you when that is going to be. You will be given adequate notice of it and steps will be taken to ensure that you get legal assistance. Your matter is accordingly adjourned. Ms Thabethe, what about the other interested parties who are present or who may be present here, namely dependents, relatives or victims. Are you aware of whether any of them are present? MS THABETHE Members of the Committee, they have been present from yesterday because this matter was supposed to be heard yesterday. I want to take this opportunity to apologise to them for wasting basically their time yesterday and today, but it is something that we could not foresee. As they have heard for themselves that the applicants were thinking that somebody is going to come on their behalf, but it transpired today that this person is not here. So I would just like to apologise to them sincerely and inform them that we will let them know of the next date in time and we will pay all the costs for the travelling for today. CHAIRMAN Must we ensure that you have their names and the addresses to which the notice of the future hearing is sent? We must make absolutely sure that we have that information. MS THABETHE We do have that information. CHAIRMAN You may stand down. Thank you very much. MS THABETHE The next matter is Hlophe on the roll, but Members of the Committee I think we have the same problem 1A - 12.2 as/... MS THABETHE 185 ADDRESS as today. CHAIRMAN Is Mr Hlophe here? MS THABETHE Mr Hlophe is here. Should we call him in? CHAIRMAN Yes. Has he been shown the letter? MS THABETHE I have shown him the letter. CHAIRMAN Was he aware of it? MS THABETHE He wasn't aware of it and he wasn't aware that his legal representative has withdrawn. As a result, he heard of that yesterday and he says in the meantime he has contacted a legal representative to act on his behalf, but whoever he has called doesn't have the relevant documentation and that person hasn't consulted with him yet. So we might have to postpone this one as well. CHAIRMAN Let him come in. ADV DE JAGER Do you know whether Mr Mbuyazi would be represented? MS THABETHE As far as I know, or as far as I am aware, he is not. CHAIRMAN Are you Mr Msisi Hlophe? ANSWER That is correct. CHAIRMAN You have made an application to the Amnesty Committee. ANSWER That is true. CHAIRMAN Have you seen this letter that has been written? ANSWER Yes, I did. CHAIRMAN Were you aware of that letter or its contents? ANSWER Yes, I read it. CHAIRMAN Did you know that your advocate, Mr Mongezi Shongweni, has indicated that you do not propose to proceed with your application? ANSWER Yes, I did hear that, but I want to say to this 1A - 12.2 Commission/... CHAIRMAN 186 R HLOPHE Commission I have no knowledge thereof, but there was some disagreement between me and the advocate so that is what resulted in the whole confusion because I wanted to be given safety at the prison. CHAIRMAN Have you now got somebody else to represent you, another lawyer? ANSWER No, I do not have. CHAIRMAN Have you not consulted another lawyer? ANSWER No, I haven't seen another attorney, besides the fact that I spoke to a certain attorney and said that maybe we have some minor disagreement, but he said to me he would come back to me although I did explain that I am supposed to appear today. QUESTION Did you say there was an attorney that you phoned yesterday or today so that he could represent you? ANSWER No, I did not say that. CHAIRMAN What is the position today, do you wish to proceed with your application in the absence or without the assistance of an attorney? ANSWER I wouldn't be able to represent myself. I think I do need a legal representative and I would appreciate it if Mongezi could represent me because he is the one who knows a lot with regard to this matter and if I take another attorney I would have to start afresh. CHAIRMAN We will adjourn this matter as well. From what you tell us there might have been some misunderstanding between you and Mr Shongweni and I have no doubt that you will take all the necessary steps to clear whatever differences there are or misunderstandings you have with him. ANSWER Yes, I do understand that. 1A - 12.2 CHAIRMAN: /... 187 CHAIRMAN It means that your application cannot be heard now and it will have to be postponed to another day. Can you tell us whether you will be taking the necessary steps to ensure that you will be legally represented? ANSWER Yes, I will make an effort to contact him and discuss it with him. CHAIRMAN We cannot tell you at this stage to what date your case is postponed. But every effort will be made to try and hear it as soon as possible. Do you understand that? ANSWER Yes, I do understand that. CHAIRMAN ... will be served on you and copies of relevant documents will be made available to you to enable you and your attorney to be prepared for your case. ANSWER I do understand. CHAIRMAN Your case is then adjourned to a date to be arranged. ANSWER I thank you. CHAIRMAN Are there people involved or who were interested, victims, relatives and so on, in connection with Mr Hlophe? MS THABETHE Yes, there are. CHAIRMAN Will they be notified of the reasons why this application ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 1B) ... of the date when Mr Hlophe's application will be heard. MS THABETHE I will arrange that they explain to them why Mr Hlophe cannot continue today and I will get their addresses. CHAIRMAN Will you publicly just express the difficulties and any inconvenience that has been caused to them. MS THABETHE I would like to speak to the relatives with regard to Hlophe's matter. We sincerely apologise for the 1B - 12.2 inconvenience/... MS THABETHE 188 ADDRESS inconvenience of not being able to hear Mr Hlophe's case because Hlophe's attorney wrote us a letter to say that he will not be able to represent Hlophe today and he further stated that Hlophe said he will not be able to appear before the Commission, as you have already heard Hlophe speaking. There was some misunderstanding between himself and his attorney and therefore I apologise to members of the family of the victims. This was beyond our control and it was unforeseeable. We have decided that we are going to postpone this matter and we shall notify you in due course as to the date of the next hearing. I thank you. CHAIRMAN The Committee will adjourn now until 09:30 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS COMMITTEE ADJOURNS TO 13.2.1997 AT 09:30 1B - 12.2 <U>AMNESTY /... 189 AMNESTY COMMITTEE HEARINGS - HELD AT PIETERMARITZBURG ON 13 FEBRUARY 1997 MS THABETHE Members of the Committee, today we are dealing with applicant Henry M Khanyile. He is applying for amnesty for murder around occurrences where three people were killed and four injured. For the record I want to mention that the victims are not here and there is no way that we can find out if they are on their way or not. But one thing for sure they do know that they are supposed to be here today. CHAIRMAN Were notices served on them? MS THABETHE Notices were served on them. CHAIRMAN And you are satisfied that those notices have reached them? MS THABETHE I am satisfied that they were served. ADV DE JAGER Have you got the returns of service. MS THABETHE I have the reports from the investigators in Durban. I will be collecting that report, but I did read it on Friday to make sure that everything was done. JUDGE WILSON Did they saw the victims or they merely posted notices to them? MS THABETHE They actually went to the place where the victims are and they saw them. CHAIRMAN Are they being represented this morning? MS THABETHE I am not aware that they are represented. CHAIRMAN And the applicants are being represented are they? MS THABETHE The applicant is being represented by Mr Kuboni. 1A - 13.2 CHAIRMAN: /... 190 MR KUBONI Honourable members of the Committee, for the record my initials are W S Kuboni. MR HENRY M KHANYILE s s EXAMINATION BY MR KUBONI Mr Khanyile, is it correct that before you got arrested you were staying at Umlazi? MR KHANYILE That is correct. MR KUBONI And it is also correct that your home is at Bamshela next to (indistinct)? MR KHANYILE That is true. MR KUBONI Is it also correct that you are a member of the African National Congress? MR KHANYILE That is true. MR KUBONI Is it correct that in the area, that is Bamshela area, there are also other political parties that are there? MR KHANYILE That's true. MR KUBONI Can you name those political parties that are there? MR KHANYILE It is IFP and ANC. MR KUBONI How can you describe the relationship there between the ANC and the IFP? MR KHANYILE There was a conflict. The organisations didn't see eye to eye and there were fights that broke out. CHAIRMAN I didn't hear that. MR KHANYILE There was conflict between the ANC and the IFP and there were fights that broke out. MR KUBONI Can you just tell this Committee about the conflict that was going on? MR KHANYILE During 1990 when we were at school, the ANC organisation was already existing at that place and the IFP members felt that they were not going to be governed or ruled by the Xhosas, so the conflict started there and they 1A - 13.2 would/... MR KUBONI 191 MR M H KHANYILE would come to our school to launch attacks during school hours. And we kept on running away from the place because in 1990 we could not write our June exams and some of us school kids went back to write the exams, but we could not go back. The following year we went back to the same school. Then in March 1991 they came back to launch another attack and that's where they started shooting us and we ran to Durban and an office in Natal got us a place at Inanda where we stayed together with other comrades. We stayed the rest of 1991 and we discussed as to how we were going to get a suitable school because we wanted to go back to school. And the offices of the ANC said they would try in 1992 and get us a school. So we stayed for the rest of 1991 without going to school. The Southern Natal office sent Mr Nduli to accompany us so that we could look for a school. Then we went to the school and they gave us a car to transport us as members of the ANC. We got to the school and Mr Nduli went to the headmaster. We were inside the car at that time. After quite some time members of the IFP came to that school. They were armed and at that time Mr Nduli was speaking to the Headmaster. They wanted to shoot at us and the driver kept on pleading with them not to shoot at us and the driver actually was able to dissuade them from launching an attack upon us. Then the Headmaster came out and told them that they would rather shoot him than shoot us and they ultimately were persuaded ... ADV DE JAGER Could you please ask him to go a little bit slower. We want to take down what he is saying. MR KHANYILE Mr Nduli went to the Headmaster's office and 1A - 13.2 when/... MR KUBONI 192 MR M H KHANYILE when he came out he discovered that the IFP members were now threatening us and they were chasing us out of the school yard and we were not able to go and register for that particular year. So we left that place and went back to Inanda. And at Inanda we convened a meeting and we tried to reach a resolution as to how we were going to get a suitable school where we would not be disturbed. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Khanyile, what school is this and in what area was this school? MR KHANYILE It is at Eskolile Bamshela. The place is called Oswatini. MR KUBONI Sorry Mr Khanyile, try to look also at me. I will try to direct the speed at which you are giving evidence. If I am lifting my hand it is indicating slow down. You can proceed. MR KHANYILE Then we convened a meeting together with other comrades that we should get a suitable place where we could stay and also attend school. Then we planned together with the ANC office and they advised us that they did have a place where we could stay and they also borrowed us a car that would take us and we were left at Xele's place. That's where we stayed together with other members of the ANC. It is at Bamshayela Oswatini. The village is called Bamshayela but the place is Oswatini. MR KUBONI When was this? MR KHANYILE It was in 1992, February the 28th. We stayed there and we waited for the beginning of the year so that we can register and there were some other members of the ANC in that place. They went to the Headmaster to try and negotiate so that we could start our school term the 1A - 13.2 following/... MR KUBONI 193 MR M H KHANYILE following year. Whilst we were there IFP members came. They tried to attack us where we were staying, that was in May. They fired shots in the air on the 10th May. CHAIRMAN Where did they come to, did they come to Xele's place? MR KHANYILE Yes. JUDGE WILSON The 10th May 1992 they came and attacked you. MR KHANYILE That is correct. They shot in the air but nobody was injured. They came back on the following day, that was on the 11th May and they attempted to attack Xele's place. And at that time there were many of them, members of the IFP. MS KHAMPEPE Sorry, Mr Kuboni, is the witness telling us what is relevant to his application? He is applying for the murder which was committed on the 18th March 1992. MR KUBONI Honourable member of the Committee, he is was trying to give a background. I was now going to lead him to the actual incident. MS KHAMPEPE But is this background in relation to the incident of the 10th May 1992. MR KUBONI If the member of the Committee can allow me to put this question, maybe it will take us back to track. CHAIRMAN Try if you can and deal with the evidence sequentially. MR KUBONI Mr Khanyile, if you are talking about this incident of the shooting in the air, is it the incident that took place before the murder of Nqobofemile? MR KHANYILE That is correct. MR KUBONI If I understand it correctly, that murder took place in March. MR KHANYILE That is true. 1A - 13.2 JUDGE WILSON: /... MR KUBONI 194 MR M H KHANYILE JUDGE WILSON Do you know that March is two months before May? MR KHANYILE I am talking about March. MR KUBONI ... speak about the incidents before the attack and if you are not sure about the dates it is not necessary to disclose the dates, but what is most important is what happened before the incidents that led to the attack on Nqobofemile. MR KHANYILE They came on a Wednesday. They had come to attack. It was a large group and we were at Xele's house in Bamshayela where we were staying. MR KUBONI Was it the Wednesday in March or what month was it? MR KHANYILE I don't remember quite well, but it was in 1992. It was before the attack on the Nqobo family. MR KUBONI What happened after that? MR KHANYILE Then a fight broke out and they were attacking us and Mr Xele went out and he came back to tell us that we must come and see, there was a large group of people approaching and this large group was attacking Mr Nqobo's place. And we went out. And when we went to the yard, the members of the IFP started shooting. And this happened up until one o'clock during the day. They ran away and we also came back. Then the following day they came to attack in the afternoon. They even burnt Mr Xele's house. That is where we were staying and they shot, we ran for our lives. We went to report to the police station that we were being attacked. The police took us in a van to go and investigate the matter. They left us along the road, but they did not go to the Xele house. They went back without investigating the matter. They didn't help us in any way and on that day 1A - 13.2 we/... MR KUBONI 195 MR M H KHANYILE we did not sleep in the house. Then on Saturday whilst we were at the mountains hiding, certain people came and they said we should go and have a look because there was dead men and when we went to look, we found out that he was one of us. And the police came at that time and said that we should help them carry the corpse in to the car. MR KUBONI You are talking about the Saturday of the same week in which the shooting took place. MR KHANYILE That is correct. MR KUBONI You can proceed. MR KHANYILE After we had put the corpse in the car the police took the corpse with and we stayed in the mountains because we didn't know where to go. Then on Sunday morning, the very same week, we went to see Mr Xele's house. And just as we were trying to collect our belongings to see whether we still had any left, we discovered that there was nothing left except for ashes. One member of the ANC came to report to us that another group was attacking his house. I went together with him. We went to his home to see what damage was being done and when we got there we discovered that the house was in flames and we saw three members of the IFP who were burning the house and we started fighting and shooting at each other. The IFP members ran away. They got to Nqobo's house. These members of the IFP who were running got into Mr Nqobo's house and they were actually shooting at us from inside the house and we shot back; after quite some time we stopped shooting at each other. After I had stopped shooting, proceeding home, two kids came out of Nqobo's house. I was having the gun in my hand. I asked them as to where the people who were shooting were and the children did not answer me. I could see that they 1A - 13.2 were/... MR KUBONI 196 MR M H KHANYILE were in a state of shock. I had a problem. I could not go inside because I was scared of the people who shot at us. Because I did not know whether the people were still there or they had run away. MR KUBONI I understand that on this day you had a gun. Where did you get this gun? MR KHANYILE Our brothers who were members of the ANC brought the guns. CHAIRMAN When you say "our brothers", do they have any names? MR KHANYILE It was Mzi Dhlamini. MR KUBONI Did he tell you where he got them from? MR KHANYILE He said he got them from the organisation, but he did not elaborate. He said he was not allowed to tell us all the details because they were going to be arrested. I am referring to the ANC organisation. MR KUBONI When you attacked the Nqobo Kraal, how many were you? MR KHANYILE We were six. ADV DE JAGER You have been telling us about the two kids.a Is that not relevant? MR KUBONI Pardon? ADV DE JAGER He has been telling us about the two children coming out of the house and speaking to him. Isn't that relevant because you are now speaking to an attack on the house. I don't know if you can hear me. He has been telling us about two children coming from the house and he enquired something from them and then you interrupted him and now you are asking him about the attack on Nqobo's house. Isn't the story about the children relevant? MR KUBONI If I understand his testimony, his testimony 1A - 13.2 is/.. MR KUBONI 197 MR M H KHANYILE is that there was an exchange of fire and then the people whom they were following, whom they were fighting with were inside the house. So when the kids got out of the house they wanted to find out from them whether these people were still inside. So I think the question of the kids really feature that way. In fact, the reason why I came in at this stage, I wanted him to clarify some of the issues relating the attack before he can go on with his testimony. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Kuboni though, I think the witness was still explaining. I think his evidence was to the effect that he asked the children the names of the children who were inside the house and who were shooting and he was still going on with that evidence when you interrupted him. So he has not yet furnished us - because I would imagine that the children must have responded to his enquiry with regard to the names of the people who were in the house. MR KUBONI Mr Khanyile, can you then proceed from where I interrupted you. CHAIRMAN Let's be more specific. He told you about two children who came out of the house. They were in a state of shock. He asked them some questions, you then went and asked him where did you get your gun from. There was a break in sequence. You should take his story about what happened after he spoke to the kids, what happened next? MR KUBONI After you have seen these kids coming out from the house, then what happened? MR KHANYILE We asked the children who were coming from the house as to where the people who were attacking us are, did they get into the house or run away. They did not answer me. I could see that they were in a state of shock, so I could not go into the house because I did not know as to 1A - 13.2 what/... MR KUBONI 198 MR M H KHANYILE what I would come across in the house. So we left that place without knowing whether there were any dead people inside the house. JUDGE WILSON So somebody went into the house, is that what you were saying? MR KHANYILE No, we never went into the house. Then from there we left to our place. We stayed for quite a few moments and then later on police came and they called out a list of names and in this list my name was also there and I did not realise that where we were, there were people who were injured where we attacked, there were people who were injured or who died. I stayed for three days and the detectives from Greytown came who were investigating that matter of murder and robbery. That is when I got to know that the Nqobo family members had been shot and I was told that it was three people. I told them that I have no knowledge thereof because I never went into the house to discover the corpses. As a result I did not know what had happened inside. CHAIRMAN ... these people when they attacked the Nqobo house? MR KHANYILE That is correct, there were six. JUDGE WILSON And you have confirmed none of them went into the house. MR KHANYILE Not even one. CHAIRMAN ... position that all six of them took part in the attack on Nqobo's house, or was it just him? MR KHANYILE The others were standing and they were keeping watch as to whether there weren't any people coming out of the house and I was launching the attack. CHAIRMAN None of your companions fired at the house. You 1A - 13.2 were/... MR KUBONI 199 MR M H KHANYILE were the only one. MR KHANYILE Yes, I am the one who shot. When I was at the police station the detectives from Greytown came and I explained to them that I had no knowledge that people had died and they thought that I was hiding something. And I proceeded to tell them that we were shooting from the outside and we did not go into the house and after the shooting stopped, only two children came out of the house and I asked these children as to where the people were who were attacking and the children did not answer me. From there we left without getting into the house to see how much damage had been done. They asked me about guns and we had hidden the guns, but the police could not get the guns, even after having assaulted me, then we proceeded to the case. Up till such time the matter was referred to the Supreme Court at Mtunzini. That's where they accused me of having killed three people and apparently there were people who survived the attack and I was convicted at the Supreme Court in Mtunzini. I really regret this because the people who got injured were not the ones that we were chasing. These were innocent victims who were not involved in the whole conflict between the ANC and the IFP and I would like to sincerely apologise to the Nqobo family that I killed the members of the family. MR KUBONI Is there anything else that you want this Committee to consider? MR KHANYILE What I did was not my intention but it was the situation that prevailed, that is the conflict that took place between the respective organisations, that is Inkatha and the ANC. I did not aim to kill the Nqobo family. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KUBONI 1B - 13.2 <U>CROSS /... MS THABETHE 200 MR M H KHANYILE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Khanyile, can you again make it clear why you found yourself at the Nqobo Kraal, what was the purpose? MR KHANYILE When the members of the IFP came, that is the ones who had burnt Mr Luthuli's house, that's when we were called and we were chasing them, and when we were chasing them they ran into the Nqobo house and at the time that he was in the yard he shot at us and they got Skwayi Nqobo, that is Mr Nqobo's son who got into the house. He was an IFP member. MS THABETHE The purpose was for you to get these guys and kill them. MR KHANYILE Yes, we were chasing the members of Inkatha who had launched an attack on us and now we were launching a counter attack. They ran into Nqobo's house and they shot from the inside of the house. Our aim was that we wanted to kill the IFP members who had shot our many members. MS THABETHE I will leave that one for now. ADV DE JAGER Can't you clear it up? He first said they shot from the yard and then you said from inside the house. Was it from the yard or from inside the house? MR KHANYILE They were shooting at us from the Luthuli place, they got into the yard and they got into the house. That is where they started shooting, not in the yard and that is why we shot into the house, because whoever was shooting at us was inside the house. MS THABETHE According to the judgment the accused said there were two groups, one entered the kraal and then the other remained outside. But today you are saying that the six of you remained outside. Can you explain that to the Committee? 1B - 13.2 MR KHANYILE: /... MS THABETHE 201 MR M H KHANYILE MR KHANYILE I said we stood outside, that is the yard. We were inside the yard but outside the house. MS THABETHE So are you saying that you were inside the kraal but outside - I am not clear. MR KHANYILE They were inside the house; we were in the yard, not inside the house. We were not outside the yard. MS THABETHE ...none of you got into the house. JUDGE WILSON Did you enter the kraal? MR KHANYILE Yes, there was a kraal but we never got into the kraal. JUDGE WILSON Did you not enter the kraal? MR KHANYILE Some of the members were waiting at the kraal looking out for some escapees but I personally was at the yard, inside the yard and not inside the kraal. JUDGE WILSON You were in the yard and not in the kraal. MR KHANYILE That is correct, I was in the yard and not in the kraal. JUDGE WILSON None of you entered the kraal. MR KHANYILE There were some who went into the kraal but some others were looking out on other areas of the yard so that the escapees be able to escape. JUDGE WILSON When you were talking about the kraal, do you mean the house or do you mean the house and the surroundings? MR KHANYILE There was a cattle kraal in the house. I was in the yard and that's where I was launching my attack. I was shooting into the house. MS THABETHE I want to clarify that when we are talking about the kraal, I understand that the Nqobo Kraal includes the yard. I mean we are not talking about the cattle kraal. We are not talking about the kraal for the cattle, we are 1B - 13.2 talking/... MS THABETHE 202 MR M H KHANYILE talking about the Nqobo Kraal where the victims were stabbed. JUDGE NGOEPE I am sorry, I personally find this confusing. The witness, when he speaks of the kraal, he means a cattle kraal and there is a house and there is a yard. I assume the house is inside the yard, maybe it is a fenced yard. Now you want to introduce a further concept of a kraal other than a cattle kraal. How are you going to fit that in? Do you want to distinguish between a yard, a cattle kraal and then kraal in another concept? Is this not just becoming complicated now? I don't understand this. MS THABETHE That is why I thought we should clarify whether ....(intervention). JUDGE NGOEPE It is clear. There is a cattle kraal, there is a hut, there is a yard. MR KUBONI Is it not better then to avoid the concept of a kraal, to just use the house and the yard. JUDGE WILSON Isn't one of the problems the fact that in the judgment the Judge refers to this witness giving evidence that they went via the Zulu kraal to the Nqobo kraal. That clearly is not a reference to cattle kraals. That is just a kraal as a housing unit, isn't it? CHAIRMAN Including the surrounding land. I think we should just simplify it. MS THABETHE Can I simplify it. If you look at page 5 of the judgment, paragraph 2, it says "While he and his group waited outside they heard gunshots from inside the kraal". So we can't assume it was coming from the cattle kraal. It was coming from the house. JUDGE NGOEPE I understand that. I have no problems with 1B - 13.2 that/... MS THABETHE 203 MR M H KHANYILE that. It is clear to me that when the judgment speaks of a kraal it is not talking about a cattle kraal. I understood the concept of the yard to be synonomous with the kraal. I wouldn't try to distinguish between a yard and a kraal. You see what I mean. Now I thought you were trying to distinguish between a kraal and a yard. Is there a difference between somebody's yard and somebody's kraal? MS THABETHE That is what I thought I should clarify. That a kraal includes a yard and house and then you have a kraal which means it is the whole area. What I wanted to find out is by saying they entered the kraal, did they enter the yard but not the house, or what does he mean? We are not talking about the cattle kraal because it is not relevant here. That is not where the attacks occurred. So I thought maybe it is important for us to clarify what we mean by kraal. CHAIRMAN Will you please ask the applicant whether any of his companions entered the house? MS THABETHE ... enter the house where the victims were? MR KHANYILE No, no one went into the house. MS THABETHE Can you explain how Thandazani and Peter were stabbed then? MR KHANYILE Thandazani and Peter went out through a certain door, but I do not know whether when they were running they got injured inside. I don't know what injured them because nobody went inside. But what I suspect was that probably when they were trying to escape they were either cut by something but we did not participate in stabbing them because we had guns. JUDGE WILSON Was Peter and Thandazani stabbed? MS THABETHE I was just about to correct that actually they were shot at at a short distance. Can he explain that to 1B - 13.2 the/... MS THABETHE 204 MR M H KHANYILE the Committee. I beg your pardon members of the Committee? INTERPRETER What is it that you want the witness to explain? MS THABETHE Maybe I should rephrase my question. According to the judgment Peter saw you shooting at a close range. He saw you firing at all those present in the room. So can you explain that to us? Are you saying he was lying, since you didn't get into the house? Can you explain how that happened? MR KHANYILE I was shooting from the outside. I was close to the window, but I did not see the people who were inside because they were inside, shots were coming from the inside of the house and I was firing into the house. And Peter came, after I had stopped shooting, because the people who were attacking us from inside had also seized the attack on us. So I asked him as to where the people who attacked us were but he did not answer me. JUDGE WILSON But what is being put to you is that the evidence that was led, according to the judgment, is that he said he saw you come into the doorway of the room and saw you firing at all those present in the room, that is from the doorway of the room. You heard that evidence at your trial didn't you? MR KHANYILE Yes, I did hear that evidence, but I did explain that I never went into the house. JUDGE WILSON ... Peter gave evidence that you did go into the house, that you show him and you shot Thandazani in the house. MR KHANYILE No, that is not true. I was shooting from the outside of the house. ADV DE JAGER Peter also gave evidence that you pulled the 1B - 13.2 trigger/..... MS THABETHE 205 MR M H KHANYILE trigger and the firearm wouldn't go off at a stage and then you said to him that he was lucky that he had been saved and thereupon you left. Did you ever speak to him and say to him that he has been lucky to be saved? MR KHANYILE I think Peter was confused. I asked him as to where the people who were attacking us were. But he did not answer me. That is when I saw that he was in a state of shock, so I never went on further to ask any questions. He saw the gun that I was having. I was pointing towards the house because I thought at that time the people were still in there and they were going to come out. Maybe he thought I wanted to shoot him. MS THABETHE ... you say there were gunshots coming from the house. MR KHANYILE That is true. MS THABETHE ... inside the house? MR KHANYILE I believe it was Skwayi from the Nqobo family, that is the people who were chasing us. MS THABETHE My question was, they were shooting from the house. Who do they believe was shooting from the house? MR KHANYILE I believed it was Skwayi Nqobo who was a member of the IFP. He was hiding inside the house, shooting at us from inside the house, and I was launching an attack from outside the house. CHAIRMAN You know Skwayi Nqobo? MR KHANYILE I also know Nqopeni Zulu. I did not know the third one's name. MS THABETHE When you shot, you fired gunshots. MR KHANYILE I had no idea that there were other people inside the house because I was concentrating mainly on the members of Inkatha who were attacking us and they even 1B - 13.2 attacked/... MS THABETHE 206 MR M H KHANYILE attacked us whilst they were inside the house, so I was launching a counter attack on them and not on any other member of that family. MS THABETHE ... a two-year old that was killed inside the house. MR KHANYILE At that time I did not have any idea, but now I do. JUDGE WILSON If you were chasing these people who shot at you as you say at the Luthuli kraal, why did you tell the trial court that you heard gunshots from inside the kraal which surprised you greatly? MR KHANYILE Could you please repeat the question? JUDGE WILSON You were chasing armed men who had been firing at you you have told us. MR KHANYILE That is correct. JUDGE WILSON Why did you then in that event tell the trial court that while you were waiting outside the kraal you heard gunshots and this surprised you greatly. MR KHANYILE I had a problem in court. I was not speaking the truth because I was scared that I would get convicted. JUDGE WILSON You lied about a number of things, didn't you? MR KHANYILE Yes, that is true. JUDGE WILSON You said you had an I'Kapi knife. MR KHANYILE Yes, that is correct. JUDGE WILSON You said you were chasing these two people so you could question them and hand them over to the police. MR KHANYILE Yes, I did say that. JUDGE WILSON ... your intention was to kill them and only them. MR KHANYILE Yes, that is true. 1B - 13.2 MS THABETHE: /... MS THABETHE 207 MR M H KHANYILE MS THABETHE What time did the attack occur? MR KHANYILE It was about 6 am, it was thereabouts, but I am not really sure as to the time. MS THABETHE ... explaining to the Committee. You were looking for these men and you knew exactly who they were and you knew exactly which house they were in. Why didn't you get inside the house and get them? Can you explain that to the Committee? MR KHANYILE The problem that we had they were also armed and it was not going to be easy for us to get inside the house. That is why we had to launch an attack from the outside. MS THABETHE ... manage to come out of the house during the exchange of those gunshots? MR KHANYILE I did say that. The child came out of the house after the shooting had seized. MS THABETHE ... those two children. MR KHANYILE I did not know their names, but in court I heard that it was Peter and the other one was Thandazani. I did not really see because at that time I think I also got confused because I kept on looking out. MS THABETHE You say two children came out of the house. MR KHANYILE That is true. MS THABETHE Who else? MR KHANYILE I don't recall the other one's name. I only heard their names in court. MS KHAMPEPE When you say you didn't know their names, did you at least know them by sight, that is Peter and the other boy, Thandazani? MR KHANYILE No, I did not know the two children who came out of the house. 1B - 13.2 MS KHAMPEPE: /... MS THABETHE 208 MR M H KHANYILE MS KHAMPEPE You did in your evidence however say that you know Skwayi Nqobo and Mqupeni Zulu MR KHANYILE That is true, I knew them. MS KHAMPEPE And was Skwayi Nqobo a brother of Peter Nqobo? Do they stay at the same kraal? MR KHANYILE That is true. JUDGE WILSON So you say these two little boys came out of the house after the shooting was over. MR KHANYILE That is correct. JUDGE WILSON Did you notice anything about them? MR KHANYILE No. JUDGE WILSON (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE I have already explained that I wasn't paying attention to some of the things, because of the fact that whilst I was launching the attack I was also keeping a lookout as to whether there was any person coming. JUDGE WILSON Are you suggesting that these two little boys who had been shot then walked out of the house and came up to the person who had been doing the shooting? MR KHANYILE They went out of the house and they didn't come exactly to me, but they just stood next to the house. JUDGE WILSON What part of the house were you shooting at? MR KHANYILE It was next to the door, but directly opposite the window. JUDGE WILSON ... aiming at the door? MR KHANYILE No, I was aiming through the window. The window was close to the door, but I was not facing the door, I was facing the window. JUDGE WILSON Were you shooting through the window? MR KHANYILE That is true. JUDGE WILSON You say you couldn't see anybody inside. 1B - 13.2 MR KHANYILE: /... MS THABETHE 209 MR M H KHANYILE MR KHANYILE That is true, I saw no one. JUDGE WILSON What sort of weapon were you using? MR KHANYILE I had a 9. JUDGE WILSON A 9mm pistol? MR KHANYILE That is correct. JUDGE WILSON And shooting blindly you managed to shoot this old woman of 73, Nomakemi Nqobo three times. MR KHANYILE Yes, that is true. JUDGE WILSON You managed to shoot Mavis Nqobo, aged 38 six times. MR KHANYILE That is correct. JUDGE WILSON And you managed to shoot Andile Nqobo aged 2 two times it appears. MR KHANYILE That is true. JUDGE WILSON It was pure chance. MR KHANYILE Yes, I can say it happened, probably it is the position that I was at when I was shooting, that's when the bullets got them. JUDGE WILSON ... where were they shooting from? MR KHANYILE They were inside the house and their bullets went through the door and I kept on ducking and when I saw the bullets coming through the door I would duck to another direction. When I saw them coming out of the window I ducked to the opposite direction. JUDGE WILSON And you just go on hitting the same people inside the house. MR KHANYILE Yes, I did. JUDGE WILSON (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE Yes, they were closed. JUDGE WILSON (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE Yes, both, because it was stili very early in 1B - 13.2 the/... MS THABETHE 210 MR M H KHANYILE the morning. JUDGE WILSON Did you hear no screams from inside the house after you shot these women and children? MR KHANYILE I did hear some noise, but it was from these children who were actually screaming, the two children that I referred to before. But when the shooting was still taking place I could not hear any noise in the house. I only heard the noise after the shooting had ceased. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Khanyile, in your evidence you have stated quite clearly that you saw amongst others Skwayi and the Zulu person whom you found burning the Luthuli house. You gave chase after them and in the process you fired at one another. So you knew that there were three people inside that house. MR KHANYILE Yes, I saw two getting into the house, but I am not sure about the third one. MS KHAMPEPE It was in the same house where Peter Nqobo came from? MR KHANYILE That is correct. MS THABETHE Mr Khanyile, do you believe that the people who were shot, that is the two women and the children, were the ones who were shooting at you? MR KHANYILE No, they were not the ones who were shooting at me. MS THABETHE Did you managed to shoot Mr Zulu and Mr Nqobo? The people you were aiming at? MR KHANYILE I was not able to shoot them because I was outside the house, they were inside and I was just returning fire thinking that I would hit them or I would be able to get one of them or two of them ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 2A) ... It was the Luthuli household. 2A - 13.2 CHAIRMAN: /... MS THABETHE 211 MR M H KHANYILE CHAIRMAN ... was the Luthuli household being burnt? MR KHANYILE It was very early in the morning, I think it was dawn. CHAIRMAN So it was shortly after that incident that the trouble or the murder or the killings at Nqobo's house took place. MR KHANYILE That is correct. MS THABETHE Mr Khanyile ....(intervention). JUDGE NGOEPE Ms Thabethe, you seem to be jutting in and out. I don't see what procedural rights you are having now. MS THABETHE I apologise. JUDGE NGOEPE Your colleague has just as much interest in the proceedings but he is not jutting in and out. MS THABETHE I apologise. JUDGE NGOEPE I am sure that the Chairman will give you right, if you ask him, I am sure he will allow you. I am not saying I am stopping you, I am just saying that one must stick to procedure. CHAIRMAN I would like to know the names of the people that you saw attacking or burning the Luthuli house. MR KHANYILE It was Sqwayi Nqobo, Mqupeni Zulu. I did not know the third one's name. CHAIRMAN (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE Yes, I knew them. CHAIRMAN Had you had prior trouble with them? MR KHANYILE Yes, I could say there was a conflict between them as a group of IFPs and they were attacking us as the comrades. CHAIRMAN (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE The two I know very well and they are the ones who used to attack us and shoot the comrades in our place. 2A - 13.2 These/... MS THABETHE 212 MR M H KHANYILE These are the two that I know very well, not the third one. JUDGE WILSON You've told us that you and a group of others were take to Xeli's place at Oswatini on the 28th February, you remember that? MR KHANYILE Yes, I do. JUDGE WILSON Were the guns brought with you on the same occasion? MR KHANYILE No. The guns were not brought with. JUDGE WILSON When were the guns brought? MR KHANYILE The guns were delivered later while we were staying at Xele's place. JUDGE WILSON How many guns? MR KHANYILE There were seven guns. JUDGE WILSON Why were you the only one who was armed on this day? MR KHANYILE The other guns which were available were far too big and the other two small ones had been taken by other members of our group. So the big ones were hidden because the police were troubling us. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Khanyile, I have only one question to put to you. I want to know whether it was the modus operandi of the ANC in your area to launch retaliatory attacks against the IFP indiscriminately. MR KHANYILE We were not attacking indiscriminately. We were attacking Inkatha members and the situation actually forced us to actually defend ourselves when we were being attacked by Inkatha members. MS KHAMPEPE Did you not foresee the possibility that there might be small children and women in the house that you so ferociously attacked? MR KHANYILE In that particular yard there is quite a 2A - 13.2 number/... MS KHAMPEPE 213 M H KHANYILE number of houses or rondawels and when we got there I thought or generally thought that they had got into that particular house that I attacked. As a result I thought probably the other members of the family were in the other rondawels. MS KHAMPEPE I am asking you again Mr Khanyile which you have not answered. Could you not have foreseen that there might be a possibility of small children and women being in that house which you attacked? MR KHANYILE No, it never occurred to me that there could be children and women, because the members of the IFP who got into that particular rondawel shot from the inside so I thought they were all by themselves. That is why they were able to shoot at us. JUDGE WILSON One last point. Had you been to the Zulu kraal before you went to this kraal? MR KHANYILE I don't think I understand the question. Would you please repeat it? JUDGE WILSON From the Luthuli kraal had you been to the Zulu kraal before you went to the Nqobo kraal? MR KHANYILE We went to the Zulu place after they had attacked. There were some who went to the Zulu kraal. JUDGE WILSON (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE As I have explained before, that on Friday we were attacked and the house was burnt. That's when we ran away. And after they had burnt the house we went to the police station where we were not helped by the police, then we went to the Nqobo place to launch an attack because the police were not helping us. JUDGE WILSON I am asking you about going to the Zulu kraal. Now you are talking about the Nqobo kraal and 2A - 13.2 trying/... JUDGE WILSON 214 M H KHANYILE trying to launch an attack. MR KHANYILE Yes, we went to the Zulu kraal after they attacked Xele's place, then we went to Zulu. That was on Friday, not on Sunday. It was after the event of burning the Xele's house, we went to the police and we couldn't get any help, therefore we went to the Zulu kraal. JUDGE WILSON To attack that. MR KHANYILE Yes. JUDGE WILSON I am reading out of the judgment, and the Judge says that at your trial you told him "On the morning in question small boys came and reported that the Luthuli kraal was burning. The Luthuli's were also ANC supporters. They were told that one Skwayi Nqobo and one Mkupeni Zulu were responsible for this". MR KHANYILE That is correct, we even saw them. JUDGE WILSON ... then went on to say "They then set off in pursuit of these men. In his evidence in chief he said "we ran to find them". They went via the Zulu kraal to the Nqobo kraal". MR KHANYILE No, that is not correct. The event that took place at Zulu was on Friday, not on Sunday. They didn't run to Zulu, they went straight to Nqobo's place. JUDGE WILSON ... say you didn't go to the Zulu kraal. MR KHANYILE No, we didn't go to the Zulu kraal on Sunday. JUDGE WILSON ... heard shots being fired from that direction. MR KHANYILE I can't say that because when we were firing shots, the Zulu's place is not far from Nqobo, so when you are coming from Luthuli going to Nqobo's place you will pass 2A - 13.2 the/... JUDGE WILSON 215 M H KHANYILE the Zulu and we were firing guns all the way. JUDGE WILSON So coming from Luthuli's going to Nqobo's you would pass the Zulu's. MR KHANYILE Yes, we will pass nearby. JUDGE WILSON (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE We did pass, not that we went there. We didn't go to the Zulu ... ADV DE JAGER Could I just clear up something. You said in your evidence just before the adjournment "We were firing guns all the way". MR KHANYILE That's correct. ADV DE JAGER Who were you referring to when you said "we were firing"? MR KHANYILE It was Skwayi Nqobo, Mkupeni Zulu and this other third person, whom I didn't know his name. All of them were IFP members who attacked the Luthuli's house. CHAIRMAN ... they were firing guns. You said "we were firing guns all the way" and the question was "who was we"? MR KHANYILE Myself and these three IFP members. ADV DE JAGER How many bullets did you take with you that morning? MR KHANYILE I had one full magazine and the other one. In other words I had two, 16-16, 32 all in all. ADV DE JAGER How many were left after the shooting? MR KHANYILE Only six left. ADV DE JAGER There is one other question I want to ask you. You remember the evidence of Peter. MR KHANYILE Yes, I do, but not everything. ADV DE JAGER Peter said at the trial that he, Peter, "dragged Thandazani under the bed, but in the process Thandazani was shot in the arm, whereupon the accused (that 2A - 13.2 is/... ADV DE JAGER 216 M H KHANYILE is you) aimed the firearm at him and pulled the trigger a number of times, but the firearm would not go off. The accused said to him that he was lucky that he had been saved. Thereupon the accused left". Do you agree with this version, or don't you agree with this version? MR KHANYILE I don't agree. I would like to put it this way. I was outside. I never got inside the house. I didn't realise that I shot Thandazani. I even left there without knowing. I only heard about it in court. CHAIRMAN What about the evidence of Peter, that you attempted to shoot him and the gun didn't go off? MR KHANYILE Peter saw the gun in my hand and then he thought that I was going to shoot him. The only thing I asked Peter was that where were those guys who were attacking us from inside the house. Maybe he thought I wanted to shoot him. JUDGE WILSON I put to you earlier that Peter had been shot. I think I was mistaken in that. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Khanyile, when you spoke to Peter and Thandazani, did you notice anything on Thandazani that might have indicated to you that he was injured by the time that you spoke to them? MR KHANYILE No, I didn't notice anything. MS KHAMPEPE You didn't see any injuries on Thandazani? MR KHANYILE I didn't notice any injury. MS KHAMPEPE Did you not observe the two small boys at that stage? MR KHANYILE I didn't observe them that well because I had a problem. My concentration was on those guys who were inside the house. All I asked them was where were those guys and they didn't answer me back and I realised that they 2A - 13.2 were/... JUDGE WILSON 217 M H KHANYILE were in a state of shock. JUDGE WILSON Will you please tell me, the house in which these three men fled, what sort of house was it? MR KHANYILE It was a four-roomed house. JUDGE WILSON What was it built of? MR KHANYILE Corrugated iron. Even though I don't have a clear knowledge as to it, it was built on a brick but it was a corrugated house. It was plastered and it had corrugated iron on top. JUDGE WILSON How big was the window? MR KHANYILE It was big window. JUDGE WILSON (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE It was as big as I am indicating. JUDGE WILSON How high? MR KHANYILE From the ground up to where I am indicating. JUDGE WILSON Could you see through the window? MR KHANYILE No, I could not see through the window because there were curtains. It was quite early in the morning. The curtains were still drawn. JUDGE WILSON So were you just shooting blindly through the window? MR KHANYILE Yes, that is true, because I was returning fire. I saw from which direction the fire came and I returned fire also, but I had absolutely no knowledge as to who was inside. JUDGE WILSON Did you fire in a specific direction? MR KHANYILE I was shooting at different directions because I didn't know which part of the house they were occupying. I would estimate that if the firing came from a certain direction then I would point my firearm towards that direction. 2A - 13.2 JUDGE WILSON: /... JUDGE WILSON 218 M H KHANYILE JUDGE WILSON ... did you think that they might not been in the same room. They might have been in any one of the four rooms in the house. MR KHANYILE At the time I had no knowledge as to what room they were occupying, so I was just shooting at random at times and at times I would wait for the fire to see as to which direction it was coming from. JUDGE WILSON Were you shooting into different rooms or were you merely shooting through the same window the whole time? MR KHANYILE I was standing at the window next to the door. JUDGE WILSON How far from the window was the door? MR KHANYILE As I am indicating. The window is where I am sitting and the door would be at the table that I am indicating. JUDGE WILSON Two and a half metres. And yet in this indiscriminate shooting you say where you were shooting through curtains, not knowing what you were aiming at, you managed to hit the one person six times, the other two people three times each and a little boy who was being pulled under a bed, you shot him through the arm. Is that so? MR KHANYILE As I have already explained, that I didn't know in which room they were. Whether they were maybe below the window or next to the door, they could have been somewhere there, maybe that's how I got them. Because I could not see anybody inside the house at that stage. JUDGE WILSON I think I must indicate to you Mr Khanyile, that was far as I am concerned I do not think you are being honest or frank with the Court in this regard and that you are accordingly not complying with the provisions of the 2A - 13.2 Act/... JUDGE WILSON 219 M H KHANYILE Act with regard to amnesty applications. That you have not made a full disclosure of what happened that morning. CHAIRMAN Before you resume re-examining this witness, you will have gathered by now the problem that is confronting us as far as your client is concerned. There seem to be some serious improbabilities in his evidence, from which one may draw the conclusion that he has not made a full and frank disclosure. Bearing that in mind you have the opportunity of clearing up what you might consider to be important matters when you re-examine him. JUDGE NGOEPE Before you re-examine, can I just also deal with another problem which you may wish to address when you re-examine. Mr Khanyile, your evidence before us is that when you and your friends followed the three people, you were the only one who was armed amongst your friends. MR KHANYILE Yes, that is true. I was the only one who was armed. JUDGE NGOEPE And the three people who you are pursuing were armed. MR KHANYILE I saw Skwayi having a firearm as well as Mqupeni Zulu. I did not see the third one whether he was armed or not, but I did not see anything. I think I did not see anything. JUDGE NGOEPE ... you were asked what you meant by saying "we were firing guns ...". (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 2B) ... MR KHANYILE The one I was actually aiming at was Skwayi Zulu and he was also returning fire and Mqupeni did have a firearm. He was also shooting, but apparently he was not shooting at me. I think he was attacking the other two members with which I was travelling. 2B - 13.2 JUDGE NGOEPE: /... JUDGE NGOEPE 220 M H KHANYILE JUDGE NGOEPE Then you were asked what you meant by saying "we were firing guns", you said you are referring to yourself and all the three other people that you were pursuing. MR KHANYILE I was firing and they were also firing, but I wanted Skwayi Nqobo. Mqupeni Zulu was shooting the other two males. JUDGE NGOEPE If you say the third person was also firing, surely you mean he was armed? MR KHANYILE The third one was not shooting at us. It was the only the other two, Mqupeni Zulu and Skwayi Nqobo. JUDGE NGOEPE Why did you put him amongst the "we" when you were asked earlier on? Why didn't you say that it was just Skwayi and Mqupeni only and yourself who were exchanging fire? MR KHANYILE I merely was referring to them, but I did not specifically say that all the three were shooting at me. JUDGE WILSON You did say three of them. MR KHANYILE They were not all shooting, only the two, because I did not see the third one's gun. Only the two were shooting back, but I just counted them as three because they were together. JUDGE NGOEPE ... if it was only yourself that was armed, and you and your friends were pursuing these people, how did you hope to engage people amongst whom two are armed, and in your group only one person is armed? MR KHANYILE I was not afraid of them, that's why I decided to chase them. JUDGE NGOEPE I am putting this question to you because as it was pointed to you earlier on the evidence against you during the trial was that you did not follow these people. 2B - 13.2 There/... JUDGE NGOEPE 221 M H KHANYILE There was no exchange of any fire between you and these people. You only received a report that these were the people who had been responsible for the burning down of Mr Luthuli's house and you never saw them yourself and you never exchanged any fire with them. MR KHANYILE In court I was not telling the truth because I was scared I would be convicted, but now I am convicted. There is no reason for me to lie. JUDGE NGOEPE ... speaking for myself, it looks a little bit improbable to me that you could have dared to engage people who had two firearms and you people had only one. You went so far as to pursue them and follow them. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Khanyile, before your attorney re-examines. There seems to be a little discrepancy in your evidence with regard to how big a group you were. I think in your evidence today before the Committee you indicated that you were a group of six, and in the evidence before your trial you indicated that you were a group of 12. Now in response to questions put by Judge Ngoepe to you you stated that Mqupeni was shooting at the other two persons in your group. Now if you were six, where were the other three persons who were supposed to be part of your group? MR KHANYILE I said the two were having guns and shooting back. We were six when this happened. That is when I was shooting at Mqupeni Zulu and his friend. The other five were also with us. I was the sixth one. I was referring to the IFP members that they were three and the two were shooting at us. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KUBONI Let us look at the homestead of Nqobo. How many houses are there? MR KHANYILE There were four. 2B - 13.2 MR KUBONI: /... MR KUBONI 222 M H KHANYILE MR KUBONI Is it possible maybe to describe whether they were huts, houses or ... MR KHANYILE There were three corrugated iron houses and one rondawel. MR KUBONI And when you got in there, did you see these people you were following, to which room did they enter? MR KHANYILE I saw them getting into a house and I know the house they got into. MR KUBONI ... fire shots? MR KHANYILE That is correct. MR KUBONI Whilst the shooting was still going on, were there any screams of people who were being affected? MR KHANYILE I could not hear any screams because there was a lot of gunfire and it made a loud sound. I only heard the screaming from the two boys who came out of the house. MR KUBONI One member of the Committee, Judge Wilson, spoke about the bullets to Nomekemeza Nqobo, which were plus-minus eight and the bullets also to a two-year old and also to the 37-year old. When did you hear about the eight bullets that penetrated them? MR KHANYILE I never got to know as to how many bullets penetrated their bodies. I only heard when the police told me that there were people who had died from gunshots, and as to how many bullets penetrated each person is the first time that I am hearing before this Committee. MR KUBONI ... you agreed when the Judge put it to you that there were eight bullets that penetrated Nomekemeza Nqobo - six bullets, I am sorry. MR KHANYILE At the Supreme Court, the person who was representing me a State attorney. I did not answer many questions. He was the one who was answering those 2B - 13.2 questions/... MR KUBONI 223 M H KHANYILE questions. MR KUBONI I am talking about today, to a member of the Committee. MR KHANYILE Yes, I agreed with him because I thought he had first-hand knowledge, but it was for the first time that I knew that there were six bullets that penetrated Nomekemeza's body. MR KUBONI Can you comment about the statement that you never pursued these people, rather you went inside and you shot at the people who were there indiscriminately. MR KHANYILE I did pursue them and they got into the Nqobo household. That is when they got into the house and they shot us from inside the house and I shot whilst I was outside the house. I never went into the house. MR KUBONI You say you just shot indiscriminately. You cannot say in which room you shot. MR KHANYILE I was shooting through the window and into the room opposite which I was standing. MR KUBONI When you heard about the burning of Luthuli's house, what were these other people armed with, that is the people in your company? MR KHANYILE No, they were not armed. But they had knives. They were armed with knives and not guns. MR KUBONI In the pursuit, what role were they playing? MR KHANYILE They were following me as I was pursuing the other members of the IFP. MR KUBONI And at the house you stated that they were on the guard, they were on the guard trying to see the other people whether they were not going to come from other directions. MR KHANYILE Yes, that is true. They were keeping guard 2B - 13.2 as/... MR KUBONI 224 M H KHANYILE as to whether there would be any person coming out of the house, a member of the IFP. MR KUBONI ... somebody did come out? MR KHANYILE I believe that they were going to call me as I was the one who was having the firearm. MR KUBONI I understand also, if we may go back a bit, that where you were staying, that is in the Xele homestead, you were a group. Was there any person who used to give you orders? MR KHANYILE Nobody gave us any instructions. We were just sitting there waiting for whoever was going to launch an attack so that we would also launch a counter attack. That is what we discussed amongst ourselves that we would defend ourselves whenever there was an attack. MR KUBONI From the judgment it appears that you went via the Zulu kraal to the Nqobo kraal. Can you tell this Committee how far is the Zulu homestead from the Nqobo homestead? MR KHANYILE It is quite a distance, from the Zulu place it is quite a distance to go to the Nqobo household. MR KUBONI That is all for now. CHAIRMAN You have told us about the size of the window and you have told us where the door was and you have told us that this house has four rooms. How many doors does this house have? MR KHANYILE I saw only one door, because it was the first time that I went to the Nqobo household and the door was just next to me. CHAIRMAN ... into the rooms, they could only enter through this one door. MR KHANYILE I wasn't really concerned about getting into 2B - 13.2 the/... CHAIRMAN 225 M H KHANYILE the house, so I did not look whether there were other doors. CHAIRMAN ... of this house for quite a while and you only saw one door. MR KHANYILE That is true. CHAIRMAN How could the people of the house get out? They could only get out through that one door. MR KHANYILE I have no knowledge thereof. As I have already explained that I had gone to the house for the first time. I don't know whether there was a back door or another door through which people could escape. CHAIRMAN Your companions were keeping guard to see that nobody left the house. MR KHANYILE They were keeping watch for our assailants, but I never actually asked them as to whether there were any other doors. They were just surrounding the house to see if there wouldn't be any escapees because there were IFP people who went into the house. CHAIRMAN ... friends guarding was to make sure ... go to all the possible exits, is that not so? MR KHANYILE The manner in which they were standing, they actually didn't want our assailants to escape. CHAIRMAN I understand that that is why they were guarding. How is it that the people who ran into the house, you don't know what happened to them? MR KHANYILE I saw them getting into the house that I am referring to and they showed us from the inside. They went through the door that I've already referred to before. CHAIRMAN ... once and for all please listen carefully. Are these four rooms next to each other in a straight line? MR KHANYILE A four-roomed house, there are two rooms at the front and two rooms at the back but within the same 2B - 13.2 house/... CHAIRMAN 226 M H KHANYILE house or within the same structure of the house. CHAIRMAN The firing that you were witnessing came from the front room. MR KHANYILE I could not see which part of the house they were, whether they were at the front portion or the back portion, but there were bullets coming through from inside the house. CHAIRMAN ... they must have been in one of the front rooms, is that right? MR KHANYILE Yes, that is true, it came out of one of the front rooms. CHAIRMAN And that is the room into which you fired. MR KHANYILE Yes, I was shooting through the room that was opposite me. The other room, I was shooting through the two rooms, that is the one which was opposite me as well as the other one that was next to the door. CHAIRMAN You were firing at two rooms, is that it? MR KHANYILE Yes, that is true. CHAIRMAN Do you know what happened to these people who fled? MR KHANYILE I don't know. I left the place without having seen them. CHAIRMAN And your friends who were guarding the place didn't even see them. MR KHANYILE Yes, they didn't see them. JUDGE NGOEPE How do you know this house had four rooms? MR KHANYILE The structure itself indicated to me that it was a four-roomed house. JUDGE NGOEPE How do you know if you never got into this house, how did you know that it was plastered from the inside? 2B - 13.2 MR KHANYILE: /... JUDGE NGOEPE 227 M H KHANYILE MR KHANYILE No, when I said the house was plastered, I was referring to the outside of the house. I never referred to the inside of the house. JUDGE NGOEPE My note said from the inside, but maybe you are right. I am not so sure. I could be wrong. But how can the outside appearance of a house indicate to you that the house must be having four rooms if you never entered into that house? MR KHANYILE As I have explained, the structures of four-roomed houses are basically the same. JUDGE NGOEPE ... ordinary municipal houses that we see in black townships. MR KHANYILE Yes, it was built like the municipal houses in the townships. Each structure resembled that one of the four-roomed houses in the residential areas of the townships. JUDGE NGOEPE Houses in the township can never give anybody doubt as to what the walls are made of, how they are structured. They can never give anybody the impression that the wall might be corrugated iron inside and plastered from inside. MR KHANYILE They do plaster the houses even in the rural areas and it could be built to resemble a house in the location or in townships. JUDGE NGOEPE This was a house built in the rural areas. MR KHANYILE Yes, it was built in the rural areas. JUDGE NGOEPE Which was made of corrugated iron sheets. MR KHANYILE Yes, that is true. JUDGE NGOEPE And the wall is made of bricks and then plastered from the outside, as you say. MR KHANYILE Yes, the walls were plastered from the 2B - 13.2 outside/... JUDGE NGOEPE 228 M H KHANYILE outside. JUDGE NGOEPE And when you look at this house ... probably a rectangular structure. MR KHANYILE Yes, it had four corners. JUDGE NGOEPE How does that immediately tell you that this house must be having four rooms unless you have been inside. MR KHANYILE I could see the size that it was the size of a four-roomed house. JUDGE NGOEPE ... no further division inside the house. There could have been only two rooms or three rooms. MR KHANYILE As I have already explained, I told myself it is a four-roomed house, because the structure resembled that of the houses I built in the townships. I don't know whether it was divided or not ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 3A) ... To me that is a four-roomed house. I saw only one door, the one that I've referred to before. The one that was next to the window. CHAIRMAN How many doors does a house like this have? MR KHANYILE They have two doors usually. CHAIRMAN (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE That is true. CHAIRMAN ... door was not guarded by your friends. MR KHANYILE No, they were not at the back of the house. JUDGE WILSON The fact that the curtains were still drawn early in the morning would indicate that that room was used as a bedroom wouldn't it? MR KHANYILE I have no idea as to whether it was the bedroom or the kitchen because the curtains were still drawn. JUDGE WILSON (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE I think it differs from house to house. It 3A - 13.2 depends/... JUDGE WILSON 229 M H KHANYILE depends what they want to do in that particular house. MS KHAMPEPE Your real intention of launching the attack on the occupants of the house at Nqobo's homestead was to kill in particular both Skwayi Nqobo and Mqupeni Zulu, is it not so? MR KHANYILE Yes, it is true, I wanted Skwayi and Mqupeni Zulu because they had shot a lot of comrades and they had launched a number of attacks upon us. But it was not my intention to kill innocent victims. MS KHAMPEPE ... to cease your shooting at the time when you did, because at that stage you didn't know whether Mqupeni or Skwayi had been killed? MR KHANYILE As I have said before, I only stopped when the shooting from the inside of the house ceased. That's only then that I stopped. MS KHAMPEPE Did you take any steps to gain access to the house to make sure that your effort at launching such a ferocious attack had yielded good results? MR KHANYILE No, I never made an attempt to get into the house because I was not sure whether they were injured or they had died. So I was scared to get inside the house because they might have been drawing me into the house by ceasing to fire then they would shoot me when I got into the house. ADV DE JAGER And while you and your friends were walking away no further shots were fired at you. MR KHANYILE No. CHAIRMAN You are once again afforded an opportunity to put questions arising out of what has been put to him by members of the Committee, but before you do that. Ms Thabethe, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness at this 3A - 13.2 stage./... MS THABETHE 230 M H KHANYILE stage? MS THABETHE Maybe just one question. When did you decide to leave the house? MR KHANYILE After the shooting had ceased from the inside then I stopped shooting also, then I decided to leave. MR KUBONI No further questions. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. You can go down. CHAIRMAN Are you proposing to call any further witnesses? MR KUBONI If I may consult with the applicant. CHAIRMAN Yes. You may do so now. MR KUBONI I just want to confer with the mother. I do not have any further witnesses. ADV DE JAGER You were 12 people attacking the house - sorry, according to your evidence six. MR KHANYILE Yes, we were six. ADV DE JAGER (Inaudible) MR KHANYILE No. MR KUBONI I am not sure whether I can get hold of some of the people who were there, Mqupeni Zulu and Skwayi Nqobo, because I am told that some of them are passed away. I am not sure about the timetable of the Committee ... CHAIRMAN We would like to dispose of this matter today if we can. Did they give evidence at the trial? MR KUBONI No, they did not give evidence at the trial. Maybe I must take instructions just on that one whether it is possible to get hold of them otherwise it is pointless ... As I have suspected, that is the problem that I had that the witness in fact, since it is a long time ago that he left the area, it will be very difficult to get hold of those witnesses. So under the circumstances I do not have any intention to call further witnesses. 3A - 13.2 CHAIRMAN: /... 231 CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. Before I call upon you to address us, can we place on record whether the victims or the relatives of the victims have turned up at all? MS THABETHE No, they have not. CHAIRMAN Is there anything you wish to draw our attention to in this matter in summing up? MS THABETHE In summing up I would like to summarise whether I think in my submissions the applicant does require with the requirements of the Act with the question of full disclosure. My opinion is that the version given at the trial court is very different from the version that we are told today, but the applicant explained that he had no obligation to tell the truth at the trial. Still though, with the evidence which that he has given us today, there are a lot of inconsistencies. And the applicant hasn't come out clearly to explain factors and questions put to him. And just on the question of the children coming out and talking to the applicant. I don't think it is very likely that children who are in the house, a house that has just been shot at, can be so courageous to come out and actually speak to the person who has been doing the shooting. But I don't know, it is just my opinion. As I said before, the applicant does not seem to be a good speaker, if I may put it so. It is like he is unable to explain himself and the sequence of events clearly. So it is very difficult for me to make an opinion whether a full disclosure was made or not. It is not convincing that it was, but I may be wrong. Then on the question of political objectivity. We may not doubt the fact that the incident occurred during a time of ANC/IFP unrest in KwaZulu/Natal. At the same time there 3A - 13.2 is/... MS THABETHE 232 ADDRESS is nothing which shows the connection or a causal link between the offence committed, that is the shooting of the two females and children, and the political objectivity sought to be achieved. There is no connection between the two. At the same time the applicant indicated that their purpose was to kill three IFP people who had attacked the Luthuli kraal. However, I don't think that would justify the killing of the Nqobo family and children. I am not clear as to what the political objective was. Thank you, Chairperson. MR KUBONI Chairperson, at this stage what has to be decided is whether the Act has a political objective and whether the applicant has made a full disclosure. It is my submission that the question of a full disclosure and the question of political objective are in a way interlinked. In my view, the applicant has done all in his power to disclose the events which took place on the day in question. The question boils down to the question of probability of his version. And the improbabilities that are pointed out is the question of shooting. The improbabilities in his version mainly have to do with the question of the bullets that penetrated the children. The child was there and also the two females were there. In my view if the version of the applicant is accepted that there was a shooting from inside, surely it cannot be said with reasonable certainty which bullets that penetrated the deceased were really from the applicant. JUDGE WILSON Could they have been from anyone else? Are you suggesting anyone else fired shots which could have hit the people in the house? 3A - 13.2 MR KUBONI: /... MR KUBONI 233 ADDRESS MR KUBONI My point is, since it was still dawn, in his version there were people who were shooting from inside. JUDGE WILSON Are you seriously suggesting that we should have regard to the possibility that these people who were in the room were shot by other people in the room? By their relations, not by a hostile group? Are you seriously suggesting we should accept that as a possibility? MR KUBONI What I am saying is, you cannot overrule that possibility, but in any case it is farfetched. But given that there was turmoil or there was an exchange of fire, so they might have been caught in the cross-fire. But what is obvious is that with the indiscriminate shooting of the applicant, anything is possible. If the people who were being pursued, that is Mqupeni Zulu and Skwayi Nqobo, if they got into the house running, surely I don't think really that they would have time - they would have time to warn the people who were inside or also to check in what positions they were in, so surely they must have directed their attacks at the people who were inside, so the possibility really of shooting the people who were inside, it is not a possibility that we can completely overrule. ADV DE JAGER But is it a probability? You said we should deal with probabilities. Do you think that it is a real probability that they have been shot by their own people? MR KUBONI It is not a probability, it is just a possibility. JUDGE WILSON You must bear in mind that it was light enough outside before they came to the house for the applicant to recognise the people he was pursuing. There was sufficient daylight for him to do that. So we are not talking about a black, dark room. This was in the morning 3A - 13.2 wasn't/... MR KUBONI 234 ADDRESS wasn't it? MR KUBONI Yes, it was in the morning. What is obvious from this version is that since there was this shooting the possibilities that - since there was this shooting, he didn't foresee that the three deceased were inside the house. Their political aim was to kill the people who were there. CHAIRMAN He has been found guilty of murder; he has already been found guilty of shooting those people and the probabilities and the possibilities of their death being caused in some other way is now an academic issue, is it not? MR KUBONI I didn't hear the last part. CHAIRMAN He was found guilty of actually murdering those people, so the probability or possibility of those people being killed in some other way is now an academic issue. MR KUBONI I agree with that. The point I am trying to highlight as such is ....(intervention). CHAIRMAN You must work on the basis that he did the shooting or any of his group, although he denies that any of his friends had a gun. MR KUBONI In my view, when he shot, he just shot indiscriminately. So therefore the probability is there that six bullets could infiltrate the deceased and it is possible that also the children could be shot the way he was shot. Therefore, I am saying, in my view he has made a full disclosure in that regard because he stated that when he arrived there he started to shoot all over the house. ADV DE JAGER He denies that he could have foreseen that there would be women and children in the house. MR KUBONI Sorry, can you repeat the question? 3A - 13.2 ADV DE JAGER: /... MR KUBONI 235 ADDRESS ADV DE JAGER Doesn't he deny that he had foreseen that there could have been women and children in the house? MR KUBONI From what I heard from him certainly he denies that he foresaw that there might have been people inside the house. ADV DE JAGER ... in a four-roomed house round about daybreak an ordinary house in the rural area, occupied by people, there wouldn't be women and children in the house? MR KUBONI If you look at the time, if you look at the judgment it was round about 6 am and it is in March. Maybe by that time it is still dawn so to say and there are some huts and other houses in the yard. Anything was possible. The other possibility is that they are still in the other houses. The other possibility is that they were there, but in their view they were chasing those people who had got into that house. They believed whom they were chasing were in that house. It must also be taken into account that the situation was tense in the area. There was tension in the area. So there was no time really to think about the fact that maybe there must be children there in this house, there must be innocent women in this house. As the judgment stands today there are some references to the evidence of the children. I submit that maybe it is very important to if the version of the applicant is weighed against he version of the children, it must be taken into account that when the incident took place they were still very young and it a known fact that with young children they have got a tendency to imagine things that they never took place. For that reason I submit that the version of the applicant, when he says they got out of the house and he was still having his gun, and when he asked the kids about the 3A - 13.2 people/... MR KUBONI 236 ADDRESS people who were shooting they just looked at him. Then I submit that must be accepted as being probable. JUDGE WILSON Why? These two children, one of them had just been shot. Their grandmother had been shot in their presence. The other woman was dead in the house. You are suggesting it is probable that they would have gone out and spoken to this man who had just done the shooting? MR KUBONI The evidence is that after the shooting had stopped, then the children got out of the house. If they got out of the house, anything is possible there. They could have got out of the house simply because they thought the assailants had gone out. Maybe they were going out to ask for some assistance and when they saw these people who were having these guns and when they asked them the questions, surely that is why they did not respond. Because I think it was still ... ADV DE JAGER But wouldn't they ask assistance from the three people in the house, the people who fled into the house, Zulu and Skwayi, rather than go out and ask assistance from the persons standing outside shooting into the house? If those other people were in the house at all? JUDGE WILSON The one you must remember was the boy's elder brother? Surely they are the logical people to turn to for help. MR KUBONI It is very difficult to explain why the kids would ... JUDGE WILSON It is difficult isn't it. CHAIRMAN We realise the limitations that you have. It is quite clear from your client's version that he had intended to get hold of these assailants whom he called IFP people with the view to shooting them because of what, in his 3A - 13.2 opinion/... MR KUBONI 237 ADDRESS opinion they had done to his comrades. Now it transpired that he killed two innocent women and children. And I would like you to address us on whether, whatever political objective he may have had, is proportional in any way to the offence that he has committed. MR KUBONI I didn't hear the last part. CHAIRMAN Whether his offence was in any way proportional to the objective which he was seeking to achieve. MR KUBONI In my view it is. In the sense that the area by this time was divided into the IFP supporting members and the ANC supporting members. In the house, they just shot, and when they shot in fact their objective was to ensure that they eliminate those people whom they regarded as IFP supporters. (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 3B) Ms Thabethe has raised the question of the causal link between the attack and the political objective. In my view the applicant, when he shot at these people, he was mostly concerned with eliminating the IFP members who were inside there. The people who got shot were caught whilst they were going on with their mission of ensuring that the people they were pursuing had been eliminated. I submit that the applicant has made a full disclosure of what took place and sometimes it is very difficult to remember each and everything because this incident took place as far back as 1992. That's all I would like to submit at this stage. CHAIRMAN Ms Thabethe, is there anything you wish to say in response to the argument advanced? MS THABETHE Yes, Chairperson, I would like to clarify one thing on the causal connection between the commission of the act and the political objectivity. 3B - 13.2 We/... MS THABETHE 238 ADDRESS We are talking here about the relationship between the shootings on two females and two children. That is the relationship between that commission of the act and the objectivity pursued. What I was saying is, there doesn't seem to be proportionality between the act that was committed and the objective that was perused. I don't see how we can say then the requirements of the Act were met. CHAIRMAN (Inaudible) MS THABETHE I would say if the political objective was to kill the IFP members for what they had done at the Luthuli house, but in turn two females and two children were killed, and the applicant ... that there were innocent women and children in the house. I don't see how it justifies the political objective. ADV DE JAGER But couldn't their objective have been there is a war and we kill everybody related to the IFP, whether women, children or adult males? MS THABETHE From the applicant's evidence I don't think that's what he said. He didn't say their aim was to kill everybody. They wanted to kill these two people and they didn't know that there were women and children in the house. If he had said that then maybe I would say something else. CHAIRMAN What do you say about the fact that a house belonging to ANC people was burned down, that is the Luthuli's house. There had been other raids on ANC supporters and so on, and he and his friends decided that they must defend themselves and one of the ways in which they thought they would defend themselves would be to shoot and kill the perpetrators. Whether they succeeded or not is another matter. But the decision to shoot and kill those who have been harassing and injuring and killing their kind, 3B - 13.2 is/... MS THABETHE 239 ADDRESS is that a political objective? MS THABETHE I would say it is a political objective, giving the setting at that place he is talking about, Bamshela, where there was unrest between ANC and IFP and people took it upon themselves to defend themselves. I would say in that context there is political objectivity. But my problem is whether it was pursued as they had planned to and they had aimed to. CHAIRMAN The offence was aimed at people whom they regarded as Inkatha. Unfortunately the wrong people got killed, but the aim and the objective was to attack Inkatha. MS THABETHE: I would say the objective is political but the relationship between the act that was committed and the political objectivity, I am not sure about that one. JUDGE WILSON I have a problem which has suddenly come to me. Perhaps you can assist me. Is there any evidence, any reference in the judgment to the fact that these three men they said they were chasing came to the house or not? I can find no such reference. I don't know if the question was ever raised. I don't know if it was raised at the trial. MS THABETHE In the judgment it says they went via the Zulu kraal - or let me start "They then set off in pursuit of these men. We ran went to find them. They went via the Zulu kraal to the Nqobo kraal". Sorry, I thought that "they" was referring to the other men. Seemingly it refers to the applicant and the other people. JUDGE WILSON And also, if you look at the judgment page 2, dealing with Peter's evidence, second paragraph "He testified they were busy making a fire in his house when they heard shots from outside. When 3B - 13.2 they/... MS THABETHE 240 ADDRESS they went out they heard the shots coming closer to their house". Page 3: "Pakamile Nqobo says she heard shots in the direction of the Zulu kraal". That would support the idea that there were groups coming towards the Nqobo kraal from further away via the Zulu kraal who were firing shots. MS THABETHE It would suggest that they were coming from wherever they were coming from, coming towards the Nqobo kraal where the incident actually happened. JUDGE WILSON ... little boy came out because he would have gone and spoken to his brother. But now I am beginning to wonder, was his brother perhaps in the house. I don't know. MS THABETHE I don't know, but my opinion would be that if they were chasing the people and they could see where they were going, I would assume that they went to the Nqobo kraal because they saw them, they were chasing them and they went there because they saw them going in there. I don't know if it can be assumed that they went to the Nqobo kraal because they saw these two people that they were chasing go into the Nqobo kraal. That would be my assumption. JUDGE WILSON And the trial Judge did not, it appears, which I hadn't had full regard to before, convict on the basis that he believed the evidence of Peter that the applicant fired shots from the doorway. He convicted the applicant on the basis of common purpose. Can we now reject the applicant's evidence as to how he fired the shots and say Peter's evidence must be preferred, that he was in the room, he wasn't firing blindly through the window? 3B - 13.2 MS THABETHE: /... MS THABETHE 241 ADDRESS MS THABETHE I am not sure if it would make any difference whether he was firing inside the house or outside the house. The fact is he fired and people were shot. And as to the question of whether they went inside the house, I think that is what we can never know, maybe we can assume, it is probable that they went inside the kraal that is in the yard. But we are not sure because there were so many houses, if maybe they went into the house that the applicant thought they were going into. I think that's what is not clear. JUDGE WILSON If they merely fired thinking they were firing at the people they had been pursuing and by chance they hit these other people, isn't that an act with a political objective? If they fired thinking they were firing at the IFP enemy. MS THABETHE That's what the applicant says. JUDGE WILSON Yes, but I was suggesting to him when I was questioning him on the bullets and the injuries that it can't be true that he merely fired blindly. He must have been aware of what he was firing at. Once one can find that he was aware of that, or that he is not being frank with the Committee on that, then one rejects the application. But is that a valid conclusion, in the light of what I put to you? MS THABETHE Actually I think it is. If he had in foreseeing, and his political objective was to kill the IFP that were inside, yes, then maybe such a political objectivity. CHAIRMAN ... if he stood in the doorway without going into the house and he could see the people in the room, he could see there were women and children and he opened fire on them, that would be the end of any political objective, 3B - 13.2 isn't/... MS THABETHE 242 ADDRESS isn't that so? MS THABETHE Yes, it would. On the other hand, if he says he stood outside because there were shots coming inside and then he shot because he was supposedly shooting at the people who were shooting at him, then I am not sure if it doesn't discard political objectivity. CHAIRMAN At least, in his favour it can be said that there is no evidence to contradict his version that there were people who did fire from within the house. MS THABETHE Unfortunately there isn't. JUDGE WILSON We don't know if such evidence was led at the trial. All we have before us is the judgment. It may be that there was such evidence. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. MS THABETHE Thank you. CHAIRMAN Mr Kuboni, thank you for your assistance in this matter. The Committee will consider this application in due course and make its decision known. You will convey that to your client. MR KUBONI Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN This is the end of the hearing of this session of the Amnesty Committee. It will now adjourn. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS