amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-07-28 PIETERMARITZBURG 1 MR ROBERT V O ZUMA 0433/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54854&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pmb/zuma.htm MR DE KLERK Thank you Mr Zuma. If he might just be sworn in please Mr Chairman. ROBERT V O ZUMA (sworn states) INTERPRETER You have to press the button on your mike when speaking. EXAMINATION BY MR DE KLERK Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Zuma, is it correct that you hail from the Richmond area and that you also stayed there during June 1991? MR ZUMA MR DE KLERK In what area did you specifically stay in Richmond during 1991? MR ZUMA At Nkobeni, just above Nkobeni. MR DE KLERK During 1991, what was your age? MR ZUMA MR DE KLERK Where you a member of the IFP at that stage? MR ZUMA MR DE KLERK Is it correct that you were brought up in the traditional Zulu way - that means that you believed in a traditional Zulu values and that you further believed in the culture in a sense of your forefathers and muti and so forth? MR ZUMA MR DE KLERK Did you go to school? MR ZUMA Yes, up to standard five. MR DE KLERK Why did you leave the school at standard five? MR ZUMA MR DE KLERK Were your parents, were they also IFP supporters? MR ZUMA MR DE KLERK You have listened to all the evidence that was given by your co-applicant in this matter, can you tell this Commission in your own words, what happened on the 23rd of June 1991. MR ZUMA It was on the 23rd of June 1991 - ANC members attacked our place. As a person who was standing about the place, I could soon have a feeling and I had my whistle which we had to blow when we got attacked. ADV POTGIETER I will just ask you to go a little bit slower so we can write down what you say so just give a pause after each sentence please. MR ZUMA As I was staying on the high area I could see them coming, they were shouting. I knew most of them because I grew up with them and we used to pass their place. They were shouting at me saying Vusi we were coming there therefore I had to blow the whistle because I knew they were coming in and they were armed and there were many. I told the other young boys to blow the whistles and we blew the whistles. ADV POTGIETER MR ZUMA Bangi instructed us that or suggested that we should fight back and we all agreed with him. We used to be armed in most cases. We waited for some time and at about 5, because it looked as if it was going to rain and it was winter, we decided to cross and go towards their direction Tabudeni. When we arrived at Tabudeni at the grounds we sat there because we knew that most people who were staying in that particular place - because most of the people who were staying next to area on the downhill have already vacated the place and they were running away. We were about seventeen. While we were still hiding somewhere there, one boy from the Dlamini family came out of the house - we could see because there was some moonlight and we could see that there was someone standing there and we started running towards that Dlamini place and we surrounded the house. The boy ran away after one shot was fired. MR MPSHE MR DE KLERK I thought of one thing Mr Chairman, the witness is busy with the story and it is a quite intricate following of what happened there and I would wish it to be possible that he could just finish with his ...(inaudible) MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, may I make this further request that the linguist must try to reduce the speed, we cannot cope. If my learned friend can just take control of him please. MR DE KLERK Thank you. If you could just pause each now and then to try and give us chance to try understand what you are saying. Go ahead. MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE Can you explain to us as to what kinds of ammunition you got from Mtusi? MR ZUMA As we were using the homemade guns and big guns, we got ammunition for 9mm and R1 ammunitions and R4 rifles ammunition. We had different types of homemade guns. One of the guns that we had was an AK47. MRS KHAMPEPE You can continue slowly. MR ZUMA No sound. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DE KLERK MR ZUMA Yes, I would like to say something. MR DE KLERK Go ahead please. MR ZUMA MR DE KLERK Thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RATHMAN Thank you Sir. On this day when this incident took place, had a peace meeting between the IFP and ANC been arranged? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN MR ZUMA Yes, it was the first time after I was arrested. MR RATHMAN To mount this attack, did you use any vehicles at all? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN Did you see any vehicles while the attack was in progress? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN Do you know that in the course of the attack, various items of furniture were stolen, stoves and big chairs and things like that? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN furniture or equipment at all? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN When you launched the attack, did you try to disguise your appearance in any way by wearing balaclavas or any other type of disguise? MR ZUMA We had hats but not hats that covered our faces because we wanted them to see us when they happened to see us. MR RATHMAN MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN Well at the meeting which you had after your area had been attacked, they whistles has blown and you all met at a place, were there any of the local IFP leaders present there? MR ZUMA They were not there, it was only the youth and some elders. MR RATHMAN The elders, who were the elders who were there? MR ZUMA I mean those who were older than us who were involved in the fight. MR RATHMAN Did you make, did you or anybody else that you know of make any attempt to contact Paulas Vezi or your chief or anybody like that? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN You say that the chief stayed at the far place, is that chief Majosi? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN How far is your area from Pateni? MR ZUMA From where? Can you repeat the question? MR RATHMAN Koweni where you lived to Pateni? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN And others - Mr Vezi also live at Pateni? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN MR ZUMA CHAIRPERSON I thought you said a moment ago that it was a short distance from where you lived to Pateni. MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN If your IFP leaders were at Pateni surely you should have asked, sent somebody to get help from them to deal in this, with this crisis you had? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN MR ZUMA It was because we intended to attack the ANC members because they terrorized us. They came to our place, shot us and burnt people ...(inaudible). MR RATHMAN Did you recognise any of the people who shot you, shot at you? MR ZUMA I knew most of them especially those from Magoda. Some of them are in prison now. These were people who were shooting police and I knew that when we arrived they might injure us. CHAIRPERSON MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE Why? Do you think the chief would have allowed you to be injured and maimed and killed by the ANC without giving you an alternative to such attacks? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE What about the leader of the IFP in your area, was that his attitude too that you should not fight back? MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN INTERPRETER May you please repeat your question. MR RATHMAN MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN MR ZUMA Yes, I heard in 1991 or 1992 that he died and chief Majosi died. MR RATHMAN MR ZUMA MR RATHMAN No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RATHMAN CROSS-EXAMINATION MR MPSHE Honourable members, I want to make it clear that nobody ordered me to attack the deceased but I was revenging the death of my brother. Did you hear that? MR ZUMA MR MPSHE Are you saying you did not write the letter? MR ZUMA CHAIRPERSON MR ZUMA Yes, I made an application for amnesty. Yes, I would say I did write this letter. I accept the letter as written by me. MRS KHAMPEPE I think in fairness to you Mr Zuma, the translation is incorrect as it stands, if you pass. You are saying and I quote MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA MR MPSHE At the time when you launched the attack, had anything happened to your brother? MR ZUMA MR MPSHE MR ZUMA No. MR MPSHE Now when you say ... no English translation how can you say you revenge because your brother was injured when nothing had happened to him at the time you launched the attack? MR ZUMA MR MPSHE Now if that is the position, on whose behalf were you revenging when you launched this attack? MR ZUMA Many family members and neighbours were killed. One of the girl mother died and some other family members were injured and they were attacking the Inkatha families therefore as an Inkatha we had to pay revenge because when those others were attacked and injured, I thought I could be injured at any time. MR MPSHE I thought I heard you say that the attack was not sanctioned or ordered or commanded by the IFP, did I hear you correctly? MR ZUMA MR MPSHE Will I then be correct to state that when you went there to launch that attack, it had nothing to do with IFP as an organisation? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA Yes. MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA MR MPSHE Mr Zuma, you testified that you could see the people who were attacking you and you knew most of them, do you remember that? MR ZUMA May you please repeat the question? MR MPSHE In your evidence you said you could see the people who attacked you and you knew most of them. MR ZUMA MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE Do you remember saying that? MR ZUMA I would like you to please repeat for me what I said. MR MPSHE I could see them - that is the attackers - I could see them come, I knew most of them - the them is the attackers. MR ZUMA MR MPSHE Now of the people that you attacked, maimed and killed, are any of them some of those that you saw attack you? MR ZUMA I would say it was the ANC members from Ndaleni because one of the persons Dumisani Ntolo. I saw him as a person whom I knew and I could recognise him. MR MPSHE MR ZUMA MR MPSHE All right. CHAIRPERSON You told us you saw and you recognised most of the people who attacked you, is that true or not? MR ZUMA I put it in this way, I knew most members of the ANC in that area, not that I saw them, I knew them. CHAIRPERSON MR ZUMA MR MPSHE So the statement, the evidence from yourself that - I could see them come, I knew them - is incorrect? MR ZUMA MR MPSHE MR ZUMA MR MPSHE MR ZUMA CHAIRPERSON Did you see someone Ndaseni Ntolo? MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA CHAIRPERSON But you mentioned his name earlier as someone you saw amongst the attackers, why did you do that if it was not true? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE As having ...(inaudible) on the day in question. MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA CHAIRPERSON MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA CHAIRPERSON MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE I presume that it was not too dark when an attack was launched in your stronghold and if ...(intervention) MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE And in your evidence you actually painted quite a beautiful picture by saying you were in a strategic place, you were higher up and you could see what was going on from down there, you could vividly see the people who were coming up to attack you. MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA INTERPRETER MRS KHAMPEPE I presume you must have consulted with your lawyer? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA Yes, I will come back to that point. MRS KHAMPEPE Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE MR ZUMA MR MPSHE Now why did you kill three young boys? MR ZUMA MR MPSHE No, but it comes from - it is your evidence, you said you saw three young boys and these three young boys were killed. The word boys comes from you and you also gave evidence that your target was actually young men so it means if you could differentiate between boys and men you saw these people. MR ZUMA MR MPSHE What you told us or told this Committee when you said you saw three young boys and you killed the three young boys, is not true? MR ZUMA MR MPSHE Let us be careful Mr Zuma, you say in that house you found three young children, is that your evidence? MR ZUMA MR MPSHE Three young children. You are at liberty to change, are you changing? You are liberty to do that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, were any young boys killed? MR MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Apart from the baby of three. MR MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Where, what count? MR MPSHE If my young ...(inaudible) below the age of twenty one. CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE Do you deny that you said you found three young children? MR ZUMA MR MPSHE Were you armed on this day, the launching of the attack? MR ZUMA Yes, I was armed with three, two spears and two ...(inaudible). MR MPSHE Two spears and two what? INTERPRETER ...(inaudible) MR ZUMA Those were knopkierries with some ...(inaudible) on top of them. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE ADV POTGIETER Mr Zuma, in the light of your more recent version that you did not identify any of the attackers, can you explain to us why you decided to attack these particular people that victim to you and your group on the 23rd of June 1991. MR ZUMA May you please repeat the question for me? ADV POTGIETER Accepting your version that you did not identify any of the attackers, for what reason did you decide to attack these particular people who fell victim to you and your group on the 23rd of June 1991? MR ZUMA ADV POTGIETER Are you suggesting that you attacked these particular people because you were taking revenge for things that they have done prior to the 23rd of June 1991? MR ZUMA ADV POTGIETER So your revenge had nothing to do with what happened in your area earlier on that particular day? MR ZUMA ADV POTGIETER MR ZUMA ADV POTGIETER Yes, but now on the 23rd during this attack that you referred to in our own area, we believe from the testimony that was presented here that one person was injured, is that correct? MR ZUMA ADV POTGIETER And your attack, your attack later that evening or that night had nothing to do with that incident - you were taking revenge for things that happened before that day? MR ZUMA ADV POTGIETER Now during your own attacks, did the people that you attacked defend themselves or counter-attack you, was there fighting between yourselves and the people that you were attacking? MR ZUMA ADV POTGIETER In the letter that you wrote and you were referred to earlier on page 34, point 2 of our papers, you say the following in the last paragraph, - the very last sentence or perhaps I should read the entire paragraph for you just to get the context. You say Do you confirm that? MR ZUMA Yes, I do. I do accept that. ADV POTGIETER What do you mean by - it was like terrorizing the community? MR ZUMA ADV POTGIETER Which community are you referring to in your letter that was being terrorized? MR ZUMA ADV POTGIETER Regarding the attack of your group as terrorizing that particular community that you were attacking or what were you trying to say here? MR ZUMA ADV POTGIETER Now we know that a number of women were killed, some very seriously injured and at least one child as well - in fact it was put to co- Applicant Mr Gumbi earlier, that after one person was injured in the early attack in your area, about twelve people were killed in the attack of your own group. Are you saying that the action, the conduct of members of your group including women and children - that was terrorizing the community? INTERPRETER May you please the last part of your question. ADV POTGIETER MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE Now in the application which I have, is this your handwriting? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE Did you in fact engage in a fight against the people who came to launch an attack at the people in your area? INTERPRETER Could you please repeat the question? MRS KHAMPEPE Did you and your colleagues, other IFP members engage in any fight with the people who came to your area to launch an attack on the 23rd of June because this is what appears in your application. Do you want me to read the portion? MR ZUMA Yes, read for me. MRS KHAMPEPE I will read it. The IFP and Inkatha people were fighting at Ndaleni. ANC members arrived in the evening at Nkobeni to attack - we fought. After that we attacked them at their place. We fought at that night. I will not succeed with the rest of that further. What I wanted to know is, did you at any stage engage in a fight with the people who came to launch an attack in your area? MR ZUMA MR ZUMA You are saying that when you were attacked, you did not in fact fight back, you ran away for cover and later re-grouped to launch a retaliatory attack? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE And during those attacks against your area, did you suffer serious casualties, did many people in your area die? MR ZUMA Yes, many people died. MRS KHAMPEPE How many approximately? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE Now when did this conflict start, when did the fighting start between you and the ANC in your area? MR ZUMA If I remember well it started in January 1991. I would say on the 1st of January 1991. MRS KHAMPEPE And before then, was there peace and tranquillity in your area? MR ZUMA There was nothing. There had been some few fights at some other places but we were not involved. I would say from Kobeni to Makota there had been peace and tranquillity in that area. MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA Yes, that is correct because it is the very same war that started in 1991, January. MRS KHAMPEPE Now were these attacks discussed with the leadership of the IFP? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE Was there any meeting of the IFP in your area? MR ZUMA There were no meetings held in that area -people were fighting and we were just protecting people. MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE CHAIRPERSON Mtusi. MRS KHAMPEPE Mr Mtusi - thank you. You had to get ammunition from Mr Mtusi, how did you know that you could get ammunition from Mr Mtusi? MR ZUMA We had to pass Magoda on our way to Ndaleni and we knew that there IFP members in that area. MRS KHAMPEPE How did you know that Mtusi could give you the kind of ammunition that you wanted, you had a variety of firearms that you had to load with those ammunitions you got from Mr Mtusi. MR ZUMA Yes. MRS KHAMPEPE Was he the person who was customarily supplying such ammunition to IFP members in the area? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR ZUMA CHAIRPERSON "We ran out of ammunition and we went to Mr Mtusi to get ammunition - not we were passing by - we went there to get it". MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE MR DE KLERK Mr Chairman, maybe I can assist the Chair. I do have my consultation notes with me that was taken long before this hearing and in my consultation notes it is as the witness I testifying - that it was on the way. If that could assist the Chair in any way. MRS KHAMPEPE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MRS KHAMPEPE You did not correct him and you were leading him. MR DE KLERK MRS KHAMPEPE I understand Mr de Klerk. Do you know Mr Zuma, where Mr Mtusi obtained the ammunition he was able to give you on that night? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE Do you know where the members of, the people that were with you, where they obtained the firearms they were using that night? MR ZUMA MRS KHAMPEPE Thank you Mr Zuma. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DE KLERK One question Mr Chairman maybe two. Was it the position during that time that most of the people actually had weapons, either manufactured weapons or homemade weapons - most of the people in that area of Richmond were walking around with weapons because of this war? MR ZUMA MR DE KLERK And most of the people in that area also had ammunition for those weapons? MR ZUMA MR DE KLERK Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE KLERK MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR RATHMAN CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MRS KHAMPEPE Can you give us your full names? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? MRS DLAMINI Yes, I can. MRS KHAMPEPE Can you please give us your full names? MR DLAMINI My names are Recoria Judith Dlamini. MRS KHAMPEPE Are you prepared to take an oath? MRS DLAMINI Yes. MRS KHAMPEPE Can you please stand to take the oath? RECORIA JUDITH DLAMINI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR RATHMAN On the 23rd of June 1991 when it got dark in the evening, were you at home with your family? MRS DLAMINI MR RATHMAN And who was with you in the house at the time? MRS DLAMINI It was my mother Emily Dlamini, Elsie Dlamini and Happy Dlamini and also Richard Dlamini. MR RATHMAN Now your home was attacked that night. MRS DLAMINI MR RATHMAN Can you tell us what happened in that attack? MRS DLAMINI Yes, I can explain. MR RATHMAN Please tell us. MRS DLAMINI It was on the 23rd of June 1991 on Sunday. We were from a meeting at Ndahwa. It was Richard, Elsie, Happy and myself, we were going back home. We arrived at home, we found my mother. Elsie and Happy wanted to go back to school. We were from a meeting for peace between IFP and ANC. When we arrived at home, my mother gave us food. We sat down and ate the food. Later two young men arrived, they asked for Richard and they took him with them. After some few minutes after they left, the two boys - two young men and Richard, one of his friends came by the name of Mbekeni Mkhize and he asked the whereabouts of Richard. I told him that Richard had been taken away by two young men who were his friends however he said that when you arrived you must wait for him. CHAIRPERSON Could you ask the ...(inaudible) to slow down a little. MRS DLAMINI After that the young man, after he ran away I hid behind the door. The people arrived. One of them was in front of them holding a gun and he put the gun through the door and I moved back. He pulled out the gun and he pointed it at the two young ladies who were standing at the end of the door, he shot the first shot and killed the first one, then shot the second one. MR RATHMAN Will you continue? MRS DLAMINI Yes. After that this half door which was supported by two iron bars - one of them said get inside and stab them with spears. They took off this half door and got into the house. Whilst in the house - and we could see that they were going to, the other is going to stab with the spears. They ran towards where my mother was lying under the skins and they took off the skins. My mother said ...(inaudible) to write and they started stabbing at my mother and the children, the two ladies started crying, saying why are you shooting at us, why are you killing us because we are not fighting and the old woman asked - why are you killing us but nobody answered. MR RATHMAN Could you continue? You said the children said - why are they attacking you? MRS DLAMINI MR RATHMAN MRS DLAMINI I saw the car before going to the Kunene family, it was a van which ...(inaudible) the people who were inside - this was the van that we usually see which was used by the riot squad. Those were the people dressed in camouflage clothes. When we came out from the Kunene house, I asked one young man to come and help us to take my mother and my younger sister to hospital because one of them, Elsie, has already passed away. I put clothes over him and put a pillow below the head and I asked him to help me to take those who managed to survive. After some time the police came to tell us that they came and one young man from Dwalane lighted the candle. And the ANC leader Sebiso Kabinda came and he asked who did this and I explained to him that there was one man who was an IFP member was together with these people who attacked us. MR RATHMAN Was that man one of the Applicants today, Gumbi? MRS DLAMINI MR RATHMAN At the time of the attack, how was Gumbi armed? MRS DLAMINI May you please repeat the question? MR RATHMAN MRS DLAMINI MR RATHMAN Right, thank you. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DE KLERK No, no, it seems that there is a suggestion that there was a vehicle ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, I know of no typed copy. What we normally request is a Judgement and ... sentence only. MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Shall we do it that way, do as much as we can today. Are you all available tomorrow morning? MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON Tomorrow will be too quickly for you to get any ...(intervention). MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) ... the basis for questioning. MR MPSHE MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON The problem is if you can find it. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE That is another issue. Mr MRS DLAMINI MR MPSHE And the Applicants amongst others are before this Committee for amnesty. INTERPRETER Could you please repeat your questions? MR MPSHE The Applicants are before this Committee for amnesty. MRS DLAMINI MR MPSHE MRS DLAMINI MR MPSHE Now what is your feeling, how do you feel about them asking for amnesty for what they did? MRS DLAMINI MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON I think Wednesday might be a bad choice in that we are on Wednesday I think, having the other side. MR DE KLERK CHAIRPERSON Thursday or Friday. MR DE KLERK Thursday is a very good day for me because I will be in Maritzburg or I would have been in Maritzburg anyway. CHAIRPERSON Thursday ...(inaudible) MR DE KLERK The 31st. CHAIRPERSON All right. This case will not be finished today, we are going to adjourn it to Thursday if that arrangement can be made, if Mrs Dlamini can be available here on Thursday. Is it possible for her to ...(intervention) MRS DLAMINI Yes, I will be available. CHAIRPERSON You will be here Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE Yes certainly Mr Chairman, I will be here Mr Chairman but I wanted to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I would suggest that if after listening to the tape tomorrow, you do discover something that you should get in touch with the other representatives and inform them to what it is so if they want to go and verify or check they can do so. MR DE KLERK Only with pleasure Mr Chairman. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON What? MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE Half past 8, Mr Chairman ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS