amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS POTCHEFSTROOM MR FALTEIN, LUCY LOMANDLA, DLANJWA GCINISIZWE MURDER OF DAVID MASEKO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54856&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/potch/potch.htm Amnesty Hearings 09. - 13. September Potchefstroom 1 MR FALTEIN ADV DLAVANE I proceed now before you members of the Committee and I will be representing the next applicant as well. MR WILLIAM FALTEIN s s ADV DLAVANE William, yourself and your co-accused were convicted and sentenced for having committed the offence of murder and two attempted murders on the 10th September 1993 by Potchefstroom Circuit Court. Do you confirm that? MR FALTEIN Yes, I agree, we did do that. ADV DLAVANE I believe at the time of the commission of this offence you were a member of the African National Congress Youth League, (indistinct) Branch, is that correct? MR FALTEIN: Yes, it is so. ADV DLAVANE I believe that being a member of the Youth Congress you were serving in your capacity as member of that structure's defence unit, is that correct? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so. ADV DLAVANE And I believe that when these offences were committed you were acting in that capacity as such, of being a member of the defence unit, is that correct? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so. ADV DLAVANE It is recorded that the person that you killed on the 24th December 1990, was David Maseko. Who is this David Maseko, the one that you killed, David Maseko? MR FALTEIN The person that we killed was David Mayeko, not David Maseko. David Mayeko was a State witness. David Mayeko that we killed was a member of the gangster group called vigilantes that was harassing the activities in the location and victimising all activities and killing people around the location and they burnt our house as well and they burnt all our property in the house. 1 MR DLAVANE: /... 2 MR FALTEIN ADV DLAVANE David Mayeko, did you know him personally? MR FALTEIN Yes, I knew him because we grew up together in the location. ADV DLAVANE Do you know him to be the leader of this vigilante gang as you now allege? MR FALTEIN Yes, he was the leader of the vigilante gangsters. ADV DLAVANE And when you killed him, was it for any other reason that you felt that he deserved to be killed? What persuaded you to kill David Mayeko? MR FALTEIN Because David Mayeko was a member of the gangster vigilante. We fled away for a long time from our homes and spending too much time away from our families and running away from the police. On the 24th December when we got there, we got the message that David Mayeko was looking for us. As we went out of the street with Themba Nqobe we met David Mayeko in the vigilante group and then he took out a gun and he chased us around. We jumped two streets. When we tried to go back and then accused No 2 started shooting him. It was not his intention to shoot him. He was just trying to scare him away. ADV DLAVANE I would like you to listen to what I will be asking you and I'll ask you to concentrate on the question. ADV DE JAGER Could you please ask him to speak a little bit slower. I think they have got trouble in keeping up with him. ADV DLAVANE Please speak slow so that everybody here can hear what you are saying. MR FALTEIN Yes, I will do so. ADV DLAVANE This David Mayeko, the one that you have just 1 described/... 2 MR FALTEIN described having been the leader of this vigilante group, this vigilante group that you have just mentioned, is it a group that was harassing, maiming, killing in the Khutsong Township at that time, is that what you are trying to tell this Committee? MR FALTEIN Yes, it was a group that was killing and raping people without any reasons. ADV DLAVANE And you are telling this Committee that because they were committing such atrocious acts you from the defence unit of the African National Congress, the youth section, you were acting in defence of the Khutsong community and yourself. Is that what ....(intervention). JUDGE WILSON That's not what he said. You are putting words into his mouth. ADV DLAVANE Thank you, Judge. Is that the impression that you are trying to convey to this Committee? MR FALTEIN: Yes, that's what I am trying to say. They were killing people in the location. ADV DLAVANE So I believe that between yourselves, by "yourselves" I mean the defence units and this vigilante group, what was happening at the time it was like a straight battle between the two groups, is that correct? MR FALTEIN It was a political thing. They used to kill all activists in the location if you are affiliated to the ANC, they will kill you with the police. ADV DLAVANE I believe that you yourself, as you are sitting there, you at one stage during that conflict did become a victim as you were shot at, is that correct? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so. ADV DLAVANE And I believe that during that conflict as well you had your parents' house burnt to ashes, is that 1 correct/... 3 MR FALTEIN correct? MR FALTEIN Yes, my parents' house was burnt. ADV DLAVANE And I believe the alleged perpetrators of these acts included the deceased and this vigilante group, is that correct? MR FALTEIN Yes. ADV DE JAGER Did you in fact see them doing the burning? MR FALTEIN Yes, I saw them, but at that night I was away sleeping at my brother's place. I was not at home. They were seen by my sister who was at school. JUDGE WILSON So you did not see, you merely heard something. MR FALTEIN When I got home in that morning I was told that I must come and see how our house was burnt. ADV DLAVANE You may not have seen him personally burning your parents' home, but you are convinced that the act was committed by the vigilante group, is that correct? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so, because even my sister saw what they did. He saw Thomas Vundla(?) who was one of the vigilante groups. ADV DLAVANE And this David Mayeko, the deceased, you know him to be the leader of this vigilante group, is that so? MR FALTEIN Yes, David Mayeko was a leader of the vigilante group. He was always there whenever they were to hit. ADV DLAVANE You mentioned in your statement that this group under the leadership of the deceased was always acting in collusion with the police, is that so? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so. ADV DLAVANE And the police who were acting in collusion with this gang, you mention them in your statement as well, 1 is/... 4 MR FALTEIN is that so? MR FALTEIN Yes, I did mention all the police in the statement. ADV DLAVANE And these policemen in your statement you are saying they were always with the deceased. MR FALTEIN Yes, they always moved around with - they used to go to 685 where all the vigilante group used to stay. ADV DLAVANE I want you now to describe to this Committee how and where was this David Mayeko killed? MR FALTEIN David Mayeko was killed nearby 685 where he was staying, on the corner of the third street in the squatter camp. ADV DLAVANE The day he was killed, how was he killed, where were you? MR FALTEIN When David Mayeko died I was there. We were standing on the corner of the street. It just happened a distance away from where we were. ADV DLAVANE And then what happened? Where was he at the time? MR FALTEIN He had fallen down next to some water stream, but we didn't notice because we walked away. ADV DLAVANE Was he shot or what happened? MR FALTEIN Yes, he was shot. ADV DLAVANE Did you shoot him? MR FALTEIN No, he wasn't shot by me. He was shot by John Themba Ncube. ADV DLAVANE And he was with this person who shot him. MR FALTEIN Yes, I was with him. ADV DLAVANE This defence unit that you were a member thereof, can you describe to this Committee how did it come that they were formed? What I want to know is whether was 1 it/.... 5 MR FALTEIN it under a particular instruction of someone in the leadership or .... MR FALTEIN It was just formed but there was no leader because in Nkutsong there was violence and there was no one who was leading and there were too many people in the location and mainly it was the police and the vigilante group. ADV DLAVANE This murder was committed under the auspices of your organisation, isn't it? MR FALTEIN No, it was under the ANC. ADV DLAVANE Because of the atrocities that were being committed by this vigilante group you acted for the sake of peace, stability and democracy in Nkutsong Township, is that correct? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so. We tried to restore peace in Nkutsong. The police didn't take any steps even if the gangsters killed people. They did nothing about it and they got even the guns from the police. ADV DLAVANE I believe that this group was so well-armed, is it so? The group that I am referring to, the vigilante? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so. They were armed all the time. ADV DLAVANE Who was arming them? MR FALTEIN This policeman, Captain Van Graan and Oosthuizen -they got all these firearms from the police. CHAIRMAN Just give us the name of the policemen again. MR FALTEIN Thomas Mandla Mkonza(?), Vincent Godele(?), Oosthuizen, Van Graan, Devan Oosthuizen, Captain Van Graan. JUDGE WILSON ... giving weapons to these people? MR FALTEIN The thing is they are always around with the police wherever they were. They met at 685 in Nkutsong. JUDGE WILSON Is that your reply? 1 MR FALTEIN:/... 6 MR FALTEIN MR FALTEIN Yes, whenever I saw them they were always carrying firearms. They were always accompanied by a policeman and even they were just visiting the police stations. ADV DE JAGER When he was shot, which policeman accompanied him on that day? MR FALTEIN I have forgotten his surname. He was called Scarface because he had a scratch on his nose. I don't remember his surname. JUDGE WILSON Did he give evidence at your trial? MR FALTEIN Yes, he did because when we got in court they told us that they don't trust us. They cannot listen to our case, they cannot take statements from us, therefore we left. JUDGE WILSON You were convicted of murder, weren't you? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so. JUDGE WILSON Did he give evidence at that trial? MR FALTEIN Yes, I did give evidence in court. JUDGE WILSON Did the policeman you call Scarface who you say was accompanying the deceased when he was shot give evidence at your trial? MR FALTEIN No, Scarface was not there when we appeared in court. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Faltein, I am afraid we don't have a picture as to what happened on the day this person was killed and I am going to take you back a little bit before your counsel presenting evidence puts questions to you. The deceased was killed on the 24th December, you said so. MR FALTEIN Yes, he was killed on the 24th December 1990. JUDGE NGOEPE When did you see him for the first time that day? 1 MR FALTEIN:/... 7 MR FALTEIN MR FALTEIN I first saw David Mayeko the first time when he started chasing us trying to shoot us. JUDGE NGOEPE Where were you? MR FALTEIN I was with co-accused David Themba Ncube. JUDGE NGOEPE And did you see the deceased on the street? MR FALTEIN I saw him coming out of the 685 yard. That was the first time when I saw him. JUDGE NGOEPE When you saw him come out of 685 yard, he was not yet chasing was he? MR FALTEIN As he went out that's when he was starting to chase us. JUDGE NGOEPE When you saw him for the first time he was not yet chasing. MR FALTEIN Yes, they were chasing us all the time from the location and on the 24th December we were visiting our parents when we saw them. JUDGE NGOEPE I am trying to get you to start right at the beginning as to what happened on the 24th and you must listen to my questions carefully. You saw the deceased for the first time on the 24th December 1990 in the yard of 685. MR FALTEIN Yes, he used to go at 685, but on the 24th I saw him going out of the yard chasing us. JUDGE NGOEPE And then what happened when you saw him come out of 685? MR FALTEIN When he went out of the yard he called us. We just ran away and then he was shooting in the air as we were running across the streets. And then when we thought that he had turned away, we thought he was away but the co-accused shot him. JUDGE NGOEPE You are giving your evidence in a very telegraphic manner that I don't understand what you are 1 saying/... 8 MR FALTEIN saying, I am afraid. You can't just shoot in the air and then you run and then Mr Ncube just shoots him. Surely there must be some things that happened. Didn't Mr Ncube stop, turn around, look at the deceased? MR FALTEIN As he was chasing us, when we got to a third street, standing in the corner, we thought he was no longer chasing us, we wanted to go back home. As we were standing and when we turned around that was the time when the deceased faced us. JUDGE NGOEPE You turn around and then, that was when the deceased faced you, and then? Mr Faltein, why do we struggle like this to get information out of you? Were you not told that when you make application for amnesty you must come and give all the details and all the information to us? MR FALTEIN I do understand because I read the whole booklet on application. When we got to a third street we stopped. We thought that we were going to go back. He was carrying a gun and he wanted to shoot us. When we tried to go back he was having his gun in his hand all the time. He had a gun in his hand when Themba Ncube shot him. JUDGE NGOEPE What did you do? MR FALTEIN I did nothing. I was just there at that day and time. JUDGE NGOEPE .... of murder if he didn't do anything? MR FALTEIN It is because I was always in the co-accused's company, that's why I was accused of having murdered the deceased. JUDGE NGOEPE What do you say you did? (Inaudible) what they allege you did do. MR FALTEIN I was arrested on my way back from school and I was told that I was being arrested for murder, two 1 murders/... 9 MR FALTEIN murders, and they told me that is the murder of David Mayeko. JUDGE NGOEPE (MICROPHONE NOT SWITCHED ON) MR FALTEIN The police who was handling the case told me that me and Themba killed the deceased. JUDGE NGOEPE When you were in court, what did they say you did? Did they say you stabbed him, did they say you also shot him? What did they say you did to the deceased? MR FALTEIN In court they said we shot the deceased. We never shot, but I was there. JUDGE NGOEPE In court they said you also shot the deceased, you, Mr Faltein? MR FALTEIN No, in court they said both of us had guns. They didn't say exactly who shot the deceased. They just told us that we are being charged for murdering the deceased. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you also in fact have a gun? MR FALTEIN Yes, I had a gun, but I never used it. JUDGE WILSON Why have you not mentioned this before? Why didn't your counsel lead this evidence that you were armed with a gun? MR FALTEIN Yes, I had a gun but I never used it, but I never used the gun. JUDGE NGOEPE You see, Mr Faltein, that is why I have been having the feeling that you are not telling us - you are not disclosing to us what you should be telling us. That is why you are only now mentioning this gun. Because it has been quite clear that you are telling us - giving us all the details as to what happened. MR FALTEIN I had the gun all the time, but I never used it. 1 JUDGE NGOEPE: /..... 10 MR FALTEIN JUDGE NGOEPE The deceased, was he alone when he gave chase to you? MR FALTEIN It was the deceased and two State witnesses and Scarface. The rest I didn't see. JUDGE NGOEPE So all that happened that day, if I were to sum you up was that on the 24th December you saw the deceased for the first time when he came out of 685. MR FALTEIN On the 24th December it was the first time that I saw the deceased. I hadn't seen him for a long time. JUDGE NGOEPE And you say when he saw you he started chasing you and you two ran away. MR FALTEIN Yes, he did. JUDGE NGOEPE And then at some point you stopped, turned round and then Mr Ncube shot him. MR FALTEIN At that point in time when we turned with the intention to go back home he was still following us and co-accused shot him. CHAIRMAN No evidence has been led about the attempted murder charges and so on. What is it all about? MR FALTEIN The two attempted murder charges I know nothing about them. I was just told that we attempted to murder David (name indistinct) as well. JUDGE WILSON So you are not asking for amnesty for the two attempted murder charges. You say you know nothing about them, the two attempted murder charges. MR FALTEIN Yes, I know nothing about them. I was just told about them. I know nothing about the two attempted murders. MS KHAMPEPE .... Scarface, who was with the deceased at the time when he was shot? MR FALTEIN Yes, Scarface had a gun but I didn't see the 1 rest/... 10 MR FALTEIN rest clearly. I only saw the deceased and Scarface, they had guns. MS KHAMPEPE How far away from the deceased was Scarface? He is a policeman who accompanied the deceased at the time when he was shot? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so. MS KHAMPEPE When the deceased was shot by Mr Ncube, how far was Scarface from the deceased? MR FALTEIN It was the deceased in front and David Maseko behind him and then Scarface behind David Maseko. JUDGE WILSON Was evidence led at your trial about the two attempted murders that you say you know nothing about? MR FALTEIN When I was arrested I was just told about these murder and two attempted murders. JUDGE WILSON Was evidence led at your trial about the two attempted murders? MR FALTEIN Yes, the people that we attempted to kill were in court. JUDGE WILSON Did they give evidence and tell the Judge how it was you attempted to murder them? MR FALTEIN Yes, they gave evidence to say that we did try to kill them. JUDGE WILSON Who were they? MR FALTEIN It was David Maseko and the Sgoqo. I don't remember his first name. JUDGE WILSON Were they the two people who were with the deceased? MR FALTEIN Yes, they were with the deceased. JUDGE WILSON Were they injured? MR FALTEIN Yes, they did say in court they never got any injuries. 1 JUDGE WILSON: /.. 11 MR FALTEIN JUDGE WILSON They never got any injuries. MR FALTEIN Yes, they never got any injuries. JUDGE WILSON And did they tell the magistrate, it wasn't a Judge, I see, that this all took place at the same time as when the deceased was shot? MR FALTEIN Can you repeat your question, Sir? JUDGE WILSON Did they tell the magistrate that you tried to kill them in the same incident at the same time as the deceased was murdered, was killed? MR FALTEIN Yes, they did tell the court that we did try to kill them. JUDGE NGOEPE What did they say? How did they say you tried to kill them? MR FALTEIN They didn't explain to the court as to how did we intend to kill them. They didn't tell the court clearly as to how did we try to kill them. I saw David Maseko for the first time in court. JUDGE NGOEPE .... I wasn't there, but I have severe doubts as to whether they can just get into the witness box and say nothing as to how you tried to kill them. Surely they must have said something, even if you didn't agree with them. Just tell us what they said how you tried to kill them. MR FALTEIN I don't remember what happened to them clearly. I saw them for the first time in court when they said that we tried to kill them and David Maseko was in gaol and it was for the first time when I saw him in court. JUDGE NGOEPE In court what did he say you went about trying to kill him? Did he say you tried to chop him with a panga, did he say you shot at him? What did he say? MR FALTEIN He never explained to the court as to how did 1 we/... 12 MR FALTEIN we try to kill him. That's what puzzles me because all the time he was in gaol and I saw him for the first time in court. JUDGE NGOEPE I really don't think that you - what standard did you pass at school, Sir? MR FALTEIN I passed Std 8. JUDGE NGOEPE When was that? MR FALTEIN I passed my Std 8 in 1992. JUDGE NGOEPE For a person who has passed Std 8 I would expect that if somebody came into court and said you wanted to kill him in this way and that way, I would expect you to can remember what that person said about you. That was very serious. You have gone to gaol as a result of that isn't it? MR FALTEIN I don't know as to why does he say that I tried to kill him. I just knew him that he was staying at 685. I've never met him before. JUDGE WILSON You had somebody defending you didn't you at the trial? MR FALTEIN Yes, I had a State advocate. JUDGE WILSON And are you asking us to believe that a witness just got into the witness box and said he tried to kill me and your advocate didn't ask any questions as to how you tried to kill him? Are you asking us to believe that? MR FALTEIN Yes, he did say in court that we tried to kill him but he didn't explain to the court as to how and why did we try to kill him. ADV DE JAGER Mr Faltein, could you tell us how many shots did the deceased fire? MR FALTEIN The first shot, it was in the air, and the rest he was shooting us as we were running along. I only heard the one that he shot in the air. 1 I/... 14 MR FALTEIN I never heard anything afterwards. CHAIRMAN The firearm that you carried, was that licensed? MR FALTEIN No, it was not licensed. CHAIRMAN What sort of firearm was it? MR FALTEIN It is a 765. CHAIRMAN Who did it belong to? MR FALTEIN I had the weapon, I was using it. CHAIRMAN Who did it belong to? MR FALTEIN It was mine. JUDGE WILSON How did you get possession of an unlicensed firearm? MR FALTEIN We got the firearms from the vigilante gangster group members. As we fought with them we took the firearms from them. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Faltein, was Mr Mayeko aiming at yourself or was he aiming at Mr Ncube when he was shooting? MR FALTEIN He was pointing in our direction, not to anyone specific. ADV DE JAGER You said you got the gun from the vigilantes when you fought with them. You got the gun from the vigilantes, the 765, is that correct? MR FALTEIN Yes, I got it whilst we were fighting amongst the groups and I would pick it up if anyone dropped it whilst during the fight. ADV DE JAGER Only one further questions. How many shots, did Ncube fire at the deceased or at the other persons with the deceased? How many shots were fired on that day? You've told us the deceased fired one shot in the air. How many other shots were fired? MR FALTEIN The other shots that were fired were by the 1 policemen/... 14 MR FALTEIN policemen that were accompanying the deceased. CHAIRMAN Which policeman, Scarface? MR FALTEIN Yes, Scarface did it. JUDGE NGOEPE Let's just get this clear. Were you not given a firearm - or let me put it to you this way. Your evidence is not that you were given a firearm by the ANC Youth League or the SDU to protect the community. That firearm you got from the gangsters. MR FALTEIN Yes, I picked the firearm during the faction fights in the street. JUDGE WILSON Was the person who used to own the firearm injured in the fight? MR FALTEIN No, I never saw the owner of the firearm. I just saw the firearm because it was a lot of people. CHAIRMAN ... about these faction fights. What are the faction fights about? MR FALTEIN These gangsters, they were fighting with activists. They came to a night vigil of a comrade and then they shot people there in the night vigil. CHAIRMAN How many faction fights have there been? MR FALTEIN It started in 1990 and then it subsided in 1991 in the location. CHAIRMAN There have been many faction fights. MR FALTEIN As I see, from 1990 up to 1991, there was no peace in the location but only in 1991 onwards. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Faltein, could you just assist us in providing us with more information with regard to your self-defence unit. Was it connected to the ANC structure or was it connected to the community, like the Civic Association? MR FALTEIN It was connected to Civic Association. Everything that we did was reported to the Civic 1 Association/.. 16 MR FALTEIN Association. ADV DE JAGER I've still got no answer on my question. You said the deceased fired one shot. Then I asked you how many other shots were fired. Then you said, Scarface also fired a shot. Is that correct or not? MR FALTEIN Yes, after the deceased shot, Scarface kept on shooting. I cannot tell exactly how many shots were they. ADV DE JAGER On your side, how many shots were fired? MR FALTEIN Only Themba shot once and nothing afterwards. ADV DE JAGER How far was the deceased from you when he was shot and fell down? Could you point out perhaps? MR FALTEIN I can point from the first person in the first row, almost here next to me, but I can't remember well because it happened quite a while ago. I can't remember clearly. (DISTANCE INDICATED) CHAIRMAN About 10 paces. ADV DLAVANE No, Chairperson, it is 10 paces as he describes. MR FALTEIN Yes, I cannot count clearly, but I am not sure as to the measurements, but that's what I can work out. CHAIRMAN What happened when the deceased was shot, what happened to Scarface? MR FALTEIN As soon as the deceased fell down I don't know what happened to Scarface, because we ran immediately after that. JUDGE WILSON What sort of gun did Scarface have and what sort of gun did the deceased have? MR FALTEIN The deceased had a 9mm and the deceased had just a long gun(??). JUDGE WILSON Who had the long gun? MR FALTEIN Scarface had the long gun. 1 JUDGE WILSON: /... 16 MR FALTEIN JUDGE WILSON And he fired many shots at you I gather with this long gun? MR FALTEIN Yes, he did shoot, but I didn't count how many times. CHAIRMAN What happened to the others that accompanied the deceased while they were chasing you? MR FALTEIN They were running after him and the moment when he fell we ran away. We don't know what happened to them. CHAIRMAN Did your group ever take a decision that the deceased should be killed? MR FALTEIN No, we never take the decision that the deceased must be killed. JUDGE WILSON One final point I'd like you to clear up for me, please. You told us that you were on the way to visit your parents on the 24th December, is that correct? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so. JUDGE WILSON Where were you ..... MR FALTEIN When all this started the ANC Youth League, they decided to take us to Orlando in a mission, for Methodist Mission. That's where we stayed in Orlando. JUDGE WILSON Where do your parents live? MR FALTEIN They are staying in Khutsong, 66 Xhosa Section. JUDGE WILSON And I take it there are many ways of getting from the Methodist Mission to your parents without going past 685, which you knew to be the headquarters of the vigilantes? MR FALTEIN No, as I said, the Methodist Church that I am talking about is in Orlando, in Soweto. JUDGE WILSON And did you have your firearms in the Methodist Mission in Orlando? 1 MR FALTEIN:/.. 17 MR FALTEIN MR FALTEIN No, we never had firearms. JUDGE WILSON Well, where did you get them on this day? MR FALTEIN No, these firearms we had them in the location and then there were donations from the location community to get these firearms. JUDGE WILSON You told us you found your firearm lying in the street after a fight. Now you say it was donations from the location community? MR FALTEIN As I said that as I was staying in Orlando they were - the particular one that I had I picked it up in the street. The rest was donated by the location community. JUDGE WILSON Where were they kept? MR FALTEIN They were being kept in the location. This lady, she is no longer in the location now. JUDGE WILSON Do I understand that on this day on the way to visit your parents you stopped, armed yourselves, and then proceeded to pass the place where you knew the vigilantes lived? MR FALTEIN No, we were not carrying these weapons because we were going to go via there, but we were just on our way home and we just met the deceased on his way out from 685. JUDGE WILSON But you had armed yourself. You have told me that you did not have these weapons at the Methodist Mission where you were living at the time, so you must have armed yourself that day on the way to visit your parents, is that so? MR FALTEIN No, these firearms we were just having them to protect us in the location in case we come across the vigilante gangster groups. It was just coincidence that we met the deceased in the street. JUDGE WILSON But you went to where he lived. Don't talk 1 about/... 18 MR FALTEIN about coincidence, you went to 685, didn't you? That's where you met him, coming out of 685. Is that not the truth? MR FALTEIN No, we were not going to 685. We were passing there. It is on our way home. JUDGE WILSON You were passing there, armed with weapons you had collected that day. Is that not true? MR FALTEIN Yes, we had guns, but we were just on our way home. It was just in the neighbourhood. MS KHAMPEPE Could you not have used a different route other than having to go past 685 to get to your parents' home? MR FALTEIN No, there was no other route, because our houses are in the same street. MS KHAMPEPE When was your parents' home set on fire? MR FALTEIN It was burnt on the 3rd December 1990 by the vigilantes. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Faltein, this is not a case where you were sent on a mission by a political organisation or SDU, given a weapon and given instructions to go and eliminate somebody who was interfering with political activity. Your mission was not on such instructions. MR FALTEIN We were not given instructions. We were just always in possession of these guns in order to defend ourselves and the community against these gangsters. JUDGE NGOEPE ... that you went past 685 by coincidence or simply because there was no other way. It is not because you had been given instructions to go and eliminate this ... MR FALTEIN We were just passing. We had no intentions to shoot them, only to find out that the deceased appeared out of the yard to shoot us. We had no intentions to kill 1 anybody/... 19 MR FALTEIN anybody. CHAIRMAN ... house No 685 on previous occasions, is that correct? MR FALTEIN No, we always go past 685 because even on our way to school we always use that route. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Faltein, I want to understand you. I am a little bit confused. Can I assume that your evidence is to this effect, that you did not intend to shoot Mayeko, and that if Mayeko had not come out of 685 and shot at you you would not have shot at him? MR FALTEIN Yes, our intention was not to shoot him. We were just on our way and when he appeared and to shoot us, unfortunately my co-accused tried to scare him away, not to kill him. MS KHAMPEPE ... shot in self-defence. MR FALTEIN Yes, we were shooting back in self-defence. We were trying to run away. Unfortunately he was shot. MS KHAMPEPE ... attempted to kill you, even if he was not Mr Mayeko, the leader of the vigilante group? MR FALTEIN We were not going to shoot anybody. The only problem that we have was the vigilante group. CHAIRMAN I think the question was that had it been anybody else instead of the deceased, had there been anybody else who shot at you, you would have shot back at him. MR FALTEIN Most of the vigilante people we knew them; we wouldn't just shoot back. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe, you have had a good rest. It is your turn. MR MPSHE Mr Faltein, since when did you become a member of the SDU, which year? MR FALTEIN I was a member of the ANC Youth League and then 1 I/... 20 MR FALTEIN I joined the self-defence unit during the fights in the location because of the vigilante group. MR MPSHE If you could provide us with the year. MR FALTEIN I joined the organisation in 1986 and then we changed to become the self-defence unit. MR MPSHE ... of leadership in the SDUs? MR FALTEIN No, I was not a leader. MR MPSHE There was no leader. We were just given instructions. There was just self-defence units in every section. This was done alternatively. We did this in shifts, so there was no specific leader. MR MPSHE ... you were just acting as an amorphous body without any form of leadership whatsoever. MR FALTEIN We used to report to the branch as to what happened the day before. We used to report everything the day after. There was nothing else that we (inaudible). We were reporting to the Youth League and to the Civic Association women. It was Dr (inaudible) but he passed away. MR MPSHE (Question inaudible) MR FALTEIN It was Mama Noqebe(?). I don't remember where she is now. MR MPSHE What was the name of this vigilante group, if it had any? MR FALTEIN They used to call themselves vigilantes. MR MPSHE (Question inaudible) MR FALTEIN They were using the name for vigilantes. MR MPSHE Now you testified that this vigilante, they killed, maimed and even burned houses of residents, you remember that? MR FALTEIN Yes, they were killing and burning down houses. 1 MR MPSHE: /... 21 MR FALTEIN MR MPSHE Are you in a position that you can tell us the exact reason why they did this? What was their target? MR FALTEIN The main thing that they were against, they were helping the police in fighting people who were fighting against oppressions. They were going along with the police and identifying comrades and burning down their houses. MR MPSHE Can you tell this Committee as to whether there was any form of connection between the vigilante group and the police? Was there such a connection? MR FALTEIN Wherever they were they were accompanied by the police. Whatever they did the police were present. MR MPSHE What things did you know personally that they did together with the police? Just mention one. MR FALTEIN The one thing that I saw them in the location is when they shot at Michael Dlameni's home. The deceased was there and some other police, Mkonza(?) and Oosthuizen, they were there shooting people and they asked as to what was happening whilst they did everything. MR MPSHE ... were in the police together with the vigilante shot at people at night vigils, was that ever reported to the authorities of the Police Force? MR FALTEIN Yes, the next day the police came to investigate as to what happened and how many people were injured and many people were injured and the police arrived the next day to investigate the matter. MR MPSHE Besides this shooting at the night vigil, do you know of any incidents wherein vigilantes and the police were involved? MR FALTEIN The other thing that was done by the vigilante, there was going to be a launch at a school and they arrived and they started shooting and they said to the people 2 disperse/... 22 MR FALTEIN disperse, you cannot launch COSAS at this school. We are not going to allow this. It was one member from the vigilante group. We didn't know many of them because they weren't from this township, all of them. MR MPSHE ... the people who were shooting at this school were not vigilante people? MR FALTEIN Yes, they were the vigilantes, because they arrived at school. That was on the day of launching COSAS. They were together with other people we do know who are residing in this township. MR MPSHE At the time of the shooting were the police anywhere near that school? MR FALTEIN The police station was far from the school, but the police arrived thereafter. MR MPSHE During the shooting spree, could the police be seen in the neighbourhood? MR FALTEIN No, at the time they arrived we had already dispersed. There was nobody in the school yard. We don't know what did they do on their arrival. MR MPSHE You have given the Committee only one instance wherein the vigilante and the police worked in cahoots. Now is there any other instance which you can recall wherein the police worked in cahoots with the vigilantes? MR FALTEIN Yes, everywhere you would see them they would be in the company of the police. They had police in their company all the time. As I have already explained, they came to shoot at a night vigil and they came to shoot at the school on the launching of COSAS and when they were moving around in the townships you'd see them in the company of the police. MR MPSHE Were vigilantes ever arrested during that 2 period/... 23 MR FALTEIN period? MR FALTEIN Yes, they were arrested. They'd be taken to the police station at the township and in the evening they would be released to be free men. MR MPSHE ... presently in gaol now? MR FALTEIN Not even one of them is in gaol now. MR MPSHE Was there any enmity, any bad blood between yourself and the vigilantes? MR FALTEIN Yes, because they kept on attacking us all the time accompanied by the police. They were looking for activists, people who are involved in the struggle. When I was sentenced in (indistinct) I was shown a photo that I am one of those who was supposed to be killed in the location. MR MPSHE ... joined the SDU and the Youth League, surely there were other people who were already involved in SDUs and Youth League, not so? MR FALTEIN Yes, there were some other people that I don't remember that were members. But most of the people are no longer in the location now and most of them I don't remember them. MR MPSHE (Question inaudible) MR FALTEIN Yes, they were there at that time. MR MPSHE (Question inaudible) MR FALTEIN The SDU was formed when the vigilante started killing people in the location. MR MPSHE The group that was there before you? MR FALTEIN Yes, there is quite a lot of people who were killed by the vigilante. There were too many comrades that were killed by the vigilante group. MR MPSHE Did you ever see the vigilantes in a meeting with the police or travelling in police vehicles? 2 MR FALTEIN:/... 24 MR FALTEIN MR FALTEIN I never saw them in a meeting, but I knew that they used to travel together in their vans and they were always around with policemen. MR MPSHE (Question inaudible - microphone not switched on) MR FALTEIN Some of them I saw. When I was shot I found them in the police station sitting around there and they beat me up there with the police. MR MPSHE Mr Faltein, as one of the Committee members correctly said, we don't know really what happened on that day. I am going to request you to tell us when did you people decide to approach David Mayeko, what had happened and what actually happened step by step until he lost his life. Just tell us everything that happened. MR FALTEIN When David Mayeko died, he was somebody that we knew very well. His grandmother was in our neighbourhood, we knew him very well, and even when he joined this thing he used to accompany the police to come and look for me in order to kill me. JUDGE NGOEPE Just a minute, can I just try to clarify something. Which question are you answering? MR FALTEIN I am answering the question that how well did I know David Mayeko. JUDGE NGOEPE You see, that was not the question and perhaps, I don't know whether there is something wrong, there is some misunderstanding between you and the interpreter. Because that was definitely not the question. The question was to tell us exactly step by step what happened on that day and I became troubled when I noticed that your answer has nothing to do with the question. MR FALTEIN David was a member of the vigilante. They used to give us problems in the location, burning down houses and 2 they/... 25 MR FALTEIN they even burnt down our property and my parents they were burnt in the legs. They burnt quite a lot of houses that belonged to comrades. JUDGE NGOEPE You are Xhosa-speaking Mr (indistinct) aren't you? And the witness is also Xhosa-speaking. I don't know Xhosa, I can't be so sure myself. Are you satisfied with the interpretation? ADV DLAVANE I believe I am satisfied with the interpretation. JUDGE NGOEPE I just wanted to clear this for the purpose of record because sometimes we get some puzzling answers to certain questions. So if you are satisfied that there is nothing wrong with the questions, the interpretation is all right then at least we know that the witness would have understood the question. Thank you. CHAIRMAN Could you give me the date on which your parents' house was burnt down? MR FALTEIN My parents' house was burned on the 3rd December 1990. CHAIRMAN And this incident about the shooting of the deceased, when did that take place? MR FALTEIN On the 24th December 1990. MR MPSHE Mr Faltein, perhaps it will help to tell us exactly what happened on that day, I'll do it by means of questions. On the day of the ....(intervention). MR FALTEIN From the day after the death of the deceased, you want to know as to what happened? MR MPSHE ... what are you answering now? I said I am going to assist you by means of questions, for us to know exactly what happened, because this is important for full disclosure purposes. Do you understand? Now, on the day 2 when/... 25 MR FALTEIN when the deceased died, what did you do yourself physically on him? MR FALTEIN I did nothing to the deceased, but I was present, and I did nothing to him. MR MPSHE Where was he killed, in his parents' premises or somewhere away in the street? MR FALTEIN It was in the street. It was not at his place. MR MPSHE How did he reach the street? MR FALTEIN He had come out of 685 chasing us and when he -Themba Johnson Ncube shot him in the street after having come out rushing out of 685 chasing us. MR MPSHE What caused or what made him to give chase on you? What provoked him? MR FALTEIN I don't know what the reason is for him to chase us. He was just harassing us with the police. It was just part of the harassment for him to chase us. We had to be killed. MR MPSHE ... people go past, he saw people who were to be killed and he gave chase. MR FALTEIN When he went out of the yard he chased us and then we ran away. MR MPSHE ... being shot by your friend Ncube, what did you do? MR FALTEIN When he fell down we ran away and there was already many police on the scene. We just ran off. MR MPSHE Was this murder committed under anybody's instruction? MR FALTEIN No, we never got any instruction to commit the murder. MR MPSHE Was David ever discussed at any given meeting 2 before/... 26 MR FALTEIN before his death that he has to be killed? MR FALTEIN No, he was never discussed in any meeting. MR MPSHE Was he ever discussed at any of your meetings, be it a Youth League meeting or a defence unit meeting as a troublesome person? MR FALTEIN We never discussed that people should be killed, but we were just discussing the trouble that's happening in the location but there was no decision taken that he should be killed. It was just reported in the police and there was no steps taken by them. MR MPSHE I get the impression, as you responded to certain questions, that you just went past there, you had no intention of killing David, you were not there to provoke David, you were not sent by anybody, it was no instruction whatsoever, and the gun that you were carrying was an illegal gun. Why did you carry that gun? MR FALTEIN The gun that I had was for the purpose of defending myself in case these people want to kill us up here. MR MPSHE Will I be correct to state that the protection was directed against the vigilante group? MR FALTEIN Yes, as I say, because they are the people who always tried to (inaudible) so I had to protect myself against them and to protect the community. So we had to be on the defence. MR MPSHE David was a vigilante group member, David Mayeko, and you had a gun on you to protect yourself against them, why didn't you do anything on him then, because he was the target? MR FALTEIN When he fell, there was nothing that we did. MR MPSHE By killing David, what did you sought to achieve? 2 MR FALTEIN:/... 27 MR FALTEIN MR FALTEIN We had no intentions to kill him. It was just a mistake that he was being shot. There was no intention. We were just on our way. MR MPSHE If I heard you correctly, by killing him you did not want to gain anything, you just killed him? It was a mistake. MR FALTEIN Yes, it was a mistake that just happened. We had no intention to kill him. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE JUDGE WILSON As I understand, you saw him rushing out of 685 and the two of you ran away and I think you said at some stage in your evidence you crossed two roads. Do you remember that? You jumped two roads. And you then didn't realise he was chasing you any more so you turned to go home, is that so? MR FALTEIN Yes, after passing the two streets we tried to turn back. That's when we met him. JUDGE WILSON And you saw him standing there and your friend shot him. MR FALTEIN When he appeared at the corner he had a gun in his hand and pointing in our direction and therefore co-accused shot him. He was just trying to scare him away, not to shoot him. JUDGE WILSON You had been running and he had been running after you, is that so? MR FALTEIN Yes, it is so. JUDGE WILSON Where did all these many policemen who were on the scene when he was shot come from? MR FALTEIN I don't know where these police came from. They were driving in a Hippo, but I am not sure which direction it came from. We started running away as soon as 2 it/... 28 MR FALTEIN it stopped. JUDGE WILSON ... police vehicle. You don't know where they came from, you don't know how many people were in the vehicle, is that the position? You just ran away when it stopped. MR FALTEIN This Hippo came from another street. It came from a different street and they just came on the crime scene. JUDGE WILSON (Inaudible - microphone not activated) MR FALTEIN Yes, we ran away. JUDGE NGOEPE How was the SDU to defend the community? MR FALTEIN We protect the community against the vigilante gangster by attacking people in their houses. JUDGE NGOEPE Could you repeat the answer? MR FALTEIN These vigilante group, we had to protect the community against them because they were fighting against the community. We had no intention to kill the deceased but we were just defending ourselves and the community. JUDGE NGOEPE Forget about the deceased. I am not asking questions about the deceased. I am asking you a question in relation to what you said earlier on that you were a member of the SDU which was to defend the community. Now my question was, how was the SDU supposed to defend the community? MR FALTEIN We were defending the community by whilst the vigilante were attacking people we kept an eye in patrolling in the location. They were going along with the police shooting the people in the houses and burning people's houses down as well. JUDGE NGOEPE What did you do in patrolling it? Can we know exactly how you went about defending the community? 2 MR FALTEIN:/... 29 MR FALTEIN MR FALTEIN We tried to make sure that people are not being attacked by the vigilante ....(intervention). JUDGE NGOEPE How did you ensure that people were not being attacked by the vigilante? MR FALTEIN We kept on guard all the time to make sure that everybody is safe, escorting people from the busstops to home. JUDGE NGOEPE If people were to be attacked what would you do? MR FALTEIN We would help them by fighting against the people who are trying to attack them? JUDGE NGOEPE How would you fight those people? MR FALTEIN We would try and find out from them as to why are they attacking these people and try and defuse the matter. JUDGE NGOEPE How would you fight those people? MR FALTEIN We would try fighting them by trying to talk to them and we would fight with them after talking to them. JUDGE NGOEPE That is not fighting, talking to them. How would you fight those people? MR FALTEIN As I said, that we would fight but we try stopping this person, but if they don't listen we would try to stop the person doing from whatever they want to do. JUDGE NGOEPE Do you lack the courage to say that as a member of the SDU, if necessary, in defending the community I would produce a gun and shoot people who were terrorising the community? Do you lack that courage to say so, if that was the case? MR FALTEIN I wouldn't just shoot people without a reason. JUDGE NGOEPE: (Inaudible) MR FALTEIN Yes, because all the time they were shooting 2 and/... 30 MR FALTEIN and attacking people and therefore we had to protect the community. JUDGE NGOEPE I tried all in vain to get out of you how you go about protecting the community. Anyway, that is the answer that you gave me. Thank you. CHAIRMAN Were there occasions when you fought back shooting at people? MR FALTEIN No, we never fought with guns. They always had guns all the time. We never killed people. We never had intentions to kill people. CHAIRMAN I am talking about you. Have you had occasion to fight back by shooting? MR FALTEIN No, I never fought back with shooting. JUDGE WILSON (Question inaudible) MR FALTEIN I was carrying a gun because the situation in the location was not so restful, therefore I had to defend myself all the time. JUDGE WILSON You continually denied when my Brother here has asked you that you were prepared to defend yourself by shooting back. What is the position? MR FALTEIN I had no intentions to kill the deceased. It was just because of the circumstances in the location. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Faltein, you were a member of the SDU, and as a member of the SDU, whose duty was to protect the community, shouldn't you have killed, if necessary, to protect the community against the vigilante group? MR FALTEIN Yes, I would protect the community because the vigilante were killing and burning down houses,so I had to protect the community. MS KHAMPEPE When did the vigilante come into existence in your area? 2 MR FALTEIN:/.. 31 MR FALTEIN MR FALTEIN They started in 1990. I only saw it in 1990. MS KHAMPEPE And immediately after their formation they started colluding with the police? MR FALTEIN Yes, wherever they went to they were accompanied by the police. Wherever they were they had police with them. MS KHAMPEPE In your evidence you mentioned a Mr Dumile Mzeko, who is he? MR FALTEIN He was in the Executive Committee of the ANC. He is now the Mayor of Carltonville. MS KHAMPEPE What information would Mzeko have been able to place before this Committee, because when you answered a question in your application form to state the political objective you sought to achieve when you committed the murder, you simply referred us to Mr Mzeko. What information would Mr Mzeko have given us? MR FALTEIN He can indicate that as we are members of the ANC he can explain as to how were we operating and as to what happened, what led to .... He can explain as to what's the role that I played in the struggle. MS KHAMPEPE Can you tell us what role you played in the struggle in relation to this murder? MR FALTEIN My role in the struggle was not to kill. It was just to mobilise the people and to protect them against the vigilantes. MS KHAMPEPE In your evidence you stated that you had to leave your area because of the heightened violence by the vigilante group. When did you leave? MR FALTEIN I left after our house was burnt down and we were being harassed by the police and they wanted to kill me. Therefore I went to stay in Orlando. 2 MS KHAMPEPE: /... 32 MR FALTEIN MS KHAMPEPE Would I be correct to say that you only left your home on the 3rd December 1990 to stay in Orlando? MR FALTEIN No, I didn't leave on the 3rd, but I don't remember exactly, but it was after the incident. ADV DE JAGER Mr Faltein, I don't want there to be any misunderstanding. You need not prove before us that you are innocent. All we want to know, and it (inaudible - microphone not activated). But before answering now, I think all my colleagues asked you and even begged you to tell us the whole truth, but we are not sure that you have confessed the whole truth to us. Make use of the opportunity, because that's your only opportunity you will have. MR FALTEIN What I can say in front of this Committee is that when the deceased was a very troublesome person in the location. He was killing people and burning down houses until he burnt my property and my parents were burnt. And afterwards the police never did anything until the time when he died on the 24th. And the police were quite aware of everything, but no steps were taken by them and nobody was arrested. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, did you say your parents were burnt? MR FALTEIN Yes, they burnt their legs. JUDGE NGOEPE They sustained some injuries as a result of the burning of the house. MR FALTEIN Yes, they burnt their legs and the house burnt down as well. CHAIRMAN Is that the only (inaudible) you wish to make? QUESTION That is correct, Chairperson, Mr Faltein, this is the situation, the situation I am referring during that time, 1990. You had the vigilante group on the other side 2 and/... 32 MR FALTEIN and you had yourselves. Yourselves I mean you in the self-defence unit and the African National Congress Youth Section. These were two opposing groups, isn't it so? MR FALTEIN Yes, that is correct. ADV DLAVANE Now, you have told this Committee the vigilante group was harassing, was maiming, was killing and was burning the properties in Khutsong. Now you from your side you had the duty to protect the community of Khutsong against vigilantes, isn't it correct? MR FALTEIN Yes, that's correct. ADV DLAVANE And isn't it so that in order to protect the community of Khutsong, you needed to arm yourself and you needed even to protect through the usage of those arms, when necessary, isn't it so? MR FALTEIN That is correct. The guns that we had were to protect the community against the vigilante. ADV DLAVANE During the existence of this vigilante group, I believe there was no more peace and stability Khutsong isn't it because of the actions of these vigilante groups, isn't it so? MR FALTEIN That is correct, there was no peace at all. ADV DLAVANE I want you to tell this Committee then what happened then after the death of David Mayeko? Did Khutsong experience stability and peace? MR FALTEIN After David's death in 1990 there was a general meeting called to discuss this issue that there mustn't be violence any more in the township. ADV DLAVANE Was there peace and stability in Khutsong after the death of David Mayeko? MR FALTEIN Yes, there was peace. After there was a meeting at the stadium that people should have peace with 2 their/... 33 MR FALTEIN their hearts. ADV DLAVANE Can we then say that with the death of David Mayeko, who you have told this Committee that he was the leader of this vigilante group, you managed as the self-defence unit, you managed to restore peace and stability. MR FALTEIN Yes, peace prevailed after his death, and as I have already indicated, that we went to the meeting to discuss that there should be peace amongst people of Khutsong. ADV DLAVANE Chairperson, I thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DLAVANE CHAIRMAN Thank you very much, you can go. Mr Mpshe, members of the Committee feel that we should take a break at this stage .... if it hasn't already been obtained. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, the record has not been obtained. I have just caused copies to be made of the investigation report to me and these copies will be tabled in that it is stated that even the case docket has disappeared, but I am going to table that when the Committee resumes. JUDGE WILSON In this case the docket has disappeared? What about the Judge's judgment? Has any enquiry been made if a copy of that is available? MR MPSHE (Inaudible) JUDGE WILSON Was it? I say this because I have changed ....(intervention). MR MPSHE It was in the Circuit Court, Potchefstroom Circuit Court. I will endeavour to find out if anything can be found. We will just take a drive to go and check. And a report will be given thereafter. CHAIRMAN The Committee will adjourn now and resume at a 2 quarter/... 34 MR NCUBE quarter to two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS MR DLAVANE Chairperson, the applicant before you is Johnson Themba Ncube. Johnson will be speaking Xhosa. May he be sworn in, please JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE s s ADV DLAVANE Mr Ncube, in the period of 1990 you were a member of the ANC Youth League, Khutsong, is that correct? MR NCUBE Yes, it is so. ADV DLAVANE And you served in your capacity as a member of the self-defence unit of that organisation as well, is that so? MR NCUBE Yes, it is so. ADV DLAVANE Mr Ncube, I appeal to you now to listen very carefully. Answer the questions as they may be asked. You were yourself and your co-accused Faltein, were convicted and sentenced for having committed an act of murder, one, two attempted murder charges, robbery, and malicious damage to property, that is yourself. MR NCUBE Yes. JUDGE WILSON Were they tried together? As I understood it, the previous applicant was charged only with murder and two attempted murders. ADV DLAVANE Chairperson, the applicant was charged with applicant No 1 only in the case of murder and two attempted murder cases. The case of malicious damage to property and robbery was tried in the Regional Court. JUDGE WILSON You asked him were yourself and your co-accused convicted and charged. They weren't. Himself and his co-accused were only convicted and charged with murder 2 and/... 35 MR NCUBE and two attempted murders, isn't that so? ADV DLAVANE That is so, and I accept the explanation. ADV DLAVANE And these offences as they are and as they appear in your application for amnesty, these are the acts that you are now here today asking this Committee to grant you amnesty thereon, is that correct? MR NCUBE It is so. JUDGE WILSON Is there a proper application before us for amnesty in respect of the robbery and the malicious damage to property? ADV DLAVANE Chairperson, I refer to the charges as they appear on the applicant's application for amnesty and I believe that having been tried and sentenced on these charges the applicant believes that they too do fall under the category that he is applying for amnesty. JUDGE WILSON But he is responsible forgiving full details in the application for amnesty and what his application says, "Robbery, can't remember the date committed, but was sentenced on the 29th May 1991". He doesn't tell us where or when it was committed. He further says on page 3 of his application "Robbery came to be as a matter of hunger whilst on the run as well as malicious. PS A statement in detail will be enclosed together with this form". No such statement was enclosed as far as I know. ADV DLAVANE Chairperson, I went through the statement of the applicant and I believe from the interpretation thereof that the two offences of malicious damage to property and robbery were in fact committed at the very same time and they are interlinked with this case of murder. Thus, I believe the applicant will be able to expantiate more when he gives his explanation before this Committee. I will 3 appeal/... 36 MR NCUBE appeal that he be given the chance to expantiate further on this as he shall be giving his evidence. ADV DLAVANE Mr Ncube, let's start with this case of this murder. This murder was committed on the 24th December 1990, is it correct? MR NCUBE Yes, it is correct. ADV DLAVANE And listen to the question very carefully now. Who did you kill on this date of the 24th December 1990? MR NCUBE I killed David Mayeko. ADV DLAVANE The two attempted murder cases, who are these people that you attempted to kill and when was it? MR NCUBE It was on the same day I killed David Mayeko. The other one was Maseko and Daniel Sgoqo. ADV DLAVANE So these two, Maseko and Daniel Sgoqo, were with David Mayeko on the same day and time when you killed Mayeko. MR NCUBE Yes, it is. ADV DLAVANE To clarify the Committee further, I proceed to this one of malicious damage to property, if I am allowed. When was this offence committed? MR NCUBE In 1990. ADV DLAVANE Which property did you damage? MR NCUBE It was a car that was delivering - a bakery delivery van and police houses. ADV DLAVANE Now robbery, who did you rob and when? MR NCUBE I robbed these bakery vans, Blue Ribbon and Delmas because we needed money to help each other as comrades. ADV DLAVANE Now let's go back again to this one of murder. David Mayeko you killed, who was this David Mayeko? Can you briefly explain that to this Committee. Who was this David 3 Mayeko/... 37 MR NCUBE Mayeko who deserved to die? MR NCUBE David Mayeko is a person that I know, we grew up together. We used to play football together in the same street. We were schooling at Hlangabesa and he was in Pororong(?). We joined the ANC organisation. As we joined the ANC David Mayeko was very greedy for money therefore they were bought by the police, the white policemen, so that they can be able to kill activities(sic) in Khutsong. ADV DLAVANE So this David Mayeko, was he David Mayeko who belonged to the vigilante group of Khutsong at the time? MR NCUBE Yes, it is so. ADV DLAVANE And what did this David Mayeko do in particular that ultimately led to his death on the 24th December 1990? MR NCUBE When the comrades were in a rally on our way back he - they will be waiting for us with the police on our way back from these rallies and they will be shooting us, disturbing the funerals of the comrades and so on and he killed people who didn't ....(intervention). ADV DLAVANE I am asking what was this David Mayeko doing actually that led ultimately to his death on the 24th December, that is prior to the 24th December? MR NCUBE David Mayeko was somebody who was harassing the comrades as a whole in Khutsong. In our rallies they were around shooting people. On our way back home they will be shooting people and when we were supposed to bury the same people they will be coming in the night to disturb in the night vigil, shooting. ADV DLAVANE Do you know of any person that you know to have been killed by this David Mayeko and his group? MR NCUBE Yes, there is. 3 ADV DLAVANE:/... 38 MR NCUBE ADV DLAVANE Can you disclose that to the Committee? Can you mention names of people you say were killed by David Mayeko and this vigilante group? MR NCUBE Yes, I can. David Mayeko killed Comrade Nthabi and Comrade Themba Golotile and Comrade Uys(?) and Comrade Mbuyisile Phiri, many few comrades. ADV DLAVANE And you were certain that these people you had just mentioned were killed by David Mayeko and this vigilante group? MR NCUBE Yes, I am certain. ADV DLAVANE It is clear now from your explanation that yourself, yourself I mean the self-defence unit or the ANC Youth League were in two opposing camps with David Mayeko. And I believe with what they were doing to Khutsong, as a result thereof there was no more peace and stability and all that, but what was the attitude of yourself as the Youth League towards this vigilante group? What did you hope to do and to achieve? MR NCUBE We had intentions of eliminating this group and by doing that we will have established peace in Khutsong. ADV DLAVANE Mr Ncube, were you armed? Did yourselves as SDUs possess armaments? MR NCUBE (Answer inaudible) ADV DLAVANE I hear you say you decided on "wiping" this other group in order to bring stability. How did you hope to achieve that? MR NCUBE We intended to shoot them. ADV DLAVANE The Committee would like to know how did you intend to shoot them, where will you get the means of shooting them? MR NCUBE We had the armaments to shoot them. We started 3 in/... 39 MR NCUBE in the squatter camp and then we got some donations in order to buy armaments, so that we can be able to prevent this vigilante group for them to come and kill people furthermore. ADV DLAVANE So are you creating the impression to this Committee that your SDUs had the support of the community of Khutsong, hence donations for you to buy armaments or weapons. MR NCUBE Yes, it is so. ADV DLAVANE Let's go to the day you killed David Mayeko. I read from your submission before this Committee that there was a time that you were forced to leave your home and sought refuge in Orlando West Methodist Mission. When did you come back home? MR NCUBE We came back on the 23rd, 23rd 1990. ADV DLAVANE 23rd of which month? MR NCUBE I don't remember it quite well. ADV DLAVANE The 23rd December 1990. Was it the day before you killed David Mayeko, isn't it? MR NCUBE Yes, it is so. ADV DLAVANE Can you explain to this Committee how did you kill David Mayeko, Mr Ncube? Where were you, where was he and how did you kill him? MR NCUBE David Mayeko, when I came back from Orlando on the 23rd, it was at night when I got home. I was not satisfied after having seen my parents. We left the very same night to see the Executive Committee of Khutsong explaining that we've just come back. We went to see other comrades within the squatter camp and we had the ammunition that we already got from the Executive in Khutsong and we went to see these other comrades. We used the same road. 3 There/... 40 MR NCUBE There is another section called Xhosa Section. We used the very same road to reach our destination at home. William Faltein went to his home and I was also heading my home. We had the guns with us. And when we arrived at 658 at David Mayeko's we saw this same person getting out of the house with his group, a group of vigilantes and they attacked us. They took out their guns, do you understand me, Sir? And I also took my gun out. It was a very long gun, a pump gun, and I shot at him. ADV DLAVANE You say David Mayeko was with his other vigilante members. Are you able to identify or name these other people who were with David Mayeko? MR NCUBE The people who were with David Mayeko were a policeman called Mkonza, it was Scarface, Daniel Sgoqo was there and David Maseko and the others were there but I don't know their names. They are just people I used to see. They are policemen as well. I just happened to forget their names. ADV DLAVANE I believe that Daniel or Mr Sgoqo and Maseko that you mention now, are the ones that you were tried for having attempted to murder, is it so? MR NCUBE That's correct. ADV DLAVANE You and Mr Faltein, did you know that the deceased, I am referring at the time when you were to pass this 685 house you mentioned, did you know they may be there? MR NCUBE Yes, we knew that they would be there and we knew that they were in the house, because that was their headquarters where they hid themselves. ADV DLAVANE Do you say that you armed yourself on that specific day in anticipation of ....(intervention). 3 JUDGE NGOEPE: /... 41 MR NCUBE JUDGE NGOEPE Is it not better to just ask the witness instead of you telling us through the witness why he armed himself? Would it not weigh a lot more heavier if you were to ask the witness himself to tell us? ADV DLAVANE I will do so. Why did you arm yourself that time? MR NCUBE At that time we were armed because we were now going to our different homes. The reason for having arms, we wanted to defend ourselves with these guns. JUDGE WILSON Where did you get the guns from? MR NCUBE This was a gun donated to the squatter camp by the comrades and the leaders of the ANC, the leaders within the squatter camp. They bought the gun. JUDGE WILSON Where did you get the gun from that day? MR NCUBE I got the gun from the ANC branch, because the gun had been bought long time ago and it was just there for me to pick. JUDGE WILSON Is this from the ANC Executive Committee? Where from the ANC? MR NCUBE Yes. JUDGE WILSON ANC Executive Committee. ADV DLAVANE You told this Committee how you killed David Mayeko. How did you kill him? Led to you killing him on that day? MR NCUBE On that day he was actually intending to kill us and we had bad blood with this man, he wanted my head and he wanted the co-accused's head. That was the situation. ADV DLAVANE You said that there was no peace and stability in Khutsong because of the activities of this vigilante group. What happened after the death of David Mayeko, after you killed David Mayeko? 3 MR NCUBE: /... 42 MR NCUBE MR NCUBE There was peace in the township, there was real peace. People reconciled because of this person. ADV DLAVANE So in a way you are saying he was the stumbling block to peace and since he was removed peace came back to Khutsong Township, is it so? MR NCUBE That's correct. ADV DLAVANE And I believe that was the mission that you hoped to achieve as the ANC at that time, peace and stability? MR NCUBE That's correct, Sir. ADV DE JAGER I think my Brother here asked you not to lead the witness. Let him tell his own story, then we could believe him. We can't believe evidence you are giving. CHAIRMAN You are putting your beliefs to him. ADV DLAVANE I accept that, Chairperson, I will withdraw from putting my beliefs to him and to this Committee. JUDGE WILSON When were you arrested? MR NCUBE I was arrested in 1991 on the 27th January. JUDGE WILSON Was there peace after that? MR NCUBE I would say, yes, but the peace never went on for a long time. ADV DLAVANE This robbery, why did you rob? What did you hope to achieve with robbery? I mean you had running battles with the vigilantes ... (GAP IN RECORDING ON SWITCH-OVER OF TAPE) ADV DLAVANE My instructions are to the effect that I should abandon proceeding with the amnesty application with respect to the charges of robbery and malicious damage to property and therefore I will refrain from leading evidence on these two charges. ADV DE JAGER Is the applicant aware that if he is not 3 granted/... 42 MR NCUBE granted amnesty on those charges, he has been sentenced to seven years' imprisonment and he will stay in gaol for seven years? ADV DLAVANE Chairperson, I have consulted on that aspect properly with the applicant. CHAIRMAN Yes, you may proceed. ADV DLAVANE When the Chairperson asked the question where you found arms from that day, you mentioned the Executive Committee, who were in the Executive Committee? MR NCUBE At the time the Executive Committee was composed with Oupa Mokwatedi. CHAIRMAN (Question inaudible) MR NCUBE I didn't understand your question, Sir. CHAIRMAN You were asked to give the names of members of the Executive Committee and all I said is that please speak slowly so that we can get the names down properly. MR NCUBE Dan Nzeku and Nonqeba. I can't remember the others. I've just forgotten their names. ADV DLAVANE (Inaudible) MR NCUBE Yes, the gun was given to me by the whole Executive, because we have discussed this issue of a gun before. MS KHAMPEPE (Question inaudible) MR NCUBE Not on the 23rd December. MS KHAMPEPE When then? MR NCUBE It was in 1990. I remember it was those days when we still had guns with us. ADV DLAVANE Chairperson, from my side I have no further questions, thank you. MR MPSHE Mr Ncube, did you hold any position of leadership in the SDUs? 3 MR NCUBE: /... 43 MR NCUBE MR NCUBE No, I was not a leader. I was not a leader. MR MPSHE Before the death of David, how long had you been a member of the SDU? MR NCUBE It was from 1990. Just from the beginning of 1990. MR MPSHE What was your position in the ANC Youth League? MR NCUBE No, I didn't have any position. MR MPSHE Now you testified that on this particular day, this day of the incident, you went to the Executive Committee to report, do you remember that? MR NCUBE I remember. MR MPSHE Did you report? MR NCUBE Yes. MR MPSHE What was the content of the report? MR NCUBE The contents were that I am now available in the township because they knew us being away from this township. MR MPSHE Did you need to tell this to the Executive Committee that you are alive and around? MR NCUBE There were reasons for me to tell them that I was now present in the township. MR MPSHE (Question indistinct) MR NCUBE When I arrived back in the township as a comrade I would not just go around the streets before reporting this matter to the Executive Committee so that even in future when I get killed the Executives would have been in a position to bury me together with the help of the comrades. MR MPSHE Did the Executive know that you were at loggerheads or you were fighting with the vigilante? MR NCUBE Yes, it knew very well. MR MPSHE And did it know the reason why you were fighting? 3 MR NCUBE: /... 44 MR NCUBE MR NCUBE It knew the reason for our fighting. The reason for our fighting was that we as the comrades were really supporting the struggle and we wanted the political activists to be free and on the other side the vigilantes were against such actions. That is where the conflict started and there was fighting and no negotiations of any kind took place. MR MPSHE You knew well the vigilantes were against political activity. Is that all? MR NCUBE That's correct, Sir. MR MPSHE Did the vigilantes at any given moment prescribe to you as to what type of political activity you are or you were to be engaged in? MR NCUBE No, they never took initiatives to tell us what political activities meant to them. They didn't want us to gather together in rallies, they didn't want us to demonstrate in the street. They didn't want us to bury our comrades in peace and in democracy. They would come and disrupt everything. MR MPSHE The vigilantes were some form of a political organisation or movement? MR NCUBE Yes, but I don't know you know as Themba, but there was a comrade of ours but he passed away and he requested the leaders of the vigilantes to explain why were they killing the comrades and which political organisation they belonged to and they said they worked with the police. In other words, they didn't join any political organisation. MR MPSHE ... when this was said to your deceased comrades? MR NCUBE No, I wasn't there. 3 MR MPSHE: /... 45 MR NCUBE MR MPSHE In your own knowledge, do you know of these vigilantes as belonging to any political organisation or movement or liberation movement, in your own knowledge? MR NCUBE I don't think they belonged to any organisation. I don't even know of any organisation they belonged to. MR MPSHE And you say to this Committee that they were just a group and had nothing to do with politics whatsoever. MR NCUBE Sir, I would agree with what you are saying as you've put your question. They were just a group killing the community. MR MPSHE Can you still perhaps venture a ... and say the vigilantes were actually a criminal gang. Will you agree to that? MR NCUBE I would agree to that, Sir. MR MPSHE And in your position as SDUs, you were actually fighting a criminal element within your community and not a political organisation. MR NCUBE We were fighting the criminals. MR MPSHE You testified that at the time when David was shot, he was in the company of police officers, amongst others, Konstabel Mkhize, Scarface and others, do you remember that? MR NCUBE I remember, Sir. MR MPSHE When you saw David in the company of these police officers, what came into your mind? MR NCUBE When I saw this person in the company of policemen attacking me, I thought I was going to be killed on that day, because they were close to me and I thought they now got hold of me. JUDGE WILSON How did they attack you? MR NCUBE They got out of 685 yard at the gate, they were 3 together/... 46 MR NCUBE together with the policemen, and they faced our direction together with my co-accused and as they were heading for us they jumped the first street and I decided to take another corner with the gun that I had in my hand. And when they appeared on the corner I fired a shot. And after shooting the deceased fell and the others turned their backs and they ran away and I didn't shoot any more. And when Sgoqo and Maseko pointed their guns at me they realised that mine was still facing them, it was still pointed at them, and they decided to run away. JUDGE WILSON They fired no shots at all. MR NCUBE I only shot once. JUDGE WILSON They fired no shots at all. The deceased didn't fire any shots at you, none of his party fired at you, is that so? MR NCUBE They never shot at us. MR MPSHE Did the deceased give chase to any of you before you could shoot him? MR NCUBE Yes, he chased us for quite a long time. MR MPSHE Who was in your company at the time when the deceased was chasing you? MR NCUBE At the time when he was facing us, can you repeat yourself? Are you referring to the question, to the day when the deceased chased us? I was together with my co-accused and the other comrades, but some of them had been killed while we were busy with the funeral proceedings of another comrade and the deceased came to the funeral. It was a Friday, we were at a night vigil. MR MPSHE (Question inaudible) MR NCUBE I am referring to the day .... MR MPSHE Did he chase you on the same day? 3 MR NCUBE: /... 47 MR NCUBE MR NCUBE Yes, before we could shoot at him he chased us. MR MPSHE Tell us, did he chase you on the same day or on the other day? MR NCUBE No, he chased us days before. On that day we killed him I just saw him at about four o'clock. MR MPSHE ... the date of his death? MR NCUBE Not. JUDGE WILSON Four o'clock in the afternoon was it, when you just saw him? MR NCUBE Yes, that is correct, Sir. MR MPSHE ... when you shot the deceased, how far was he from you? MR NCUBE He was present. MR MPSHE How far was he from you? MR NCUBE How can I estimate the distance? Do you see that cameraman? He was just there and I was here at this table that I am sitting at now. It was just that distance. MR MPSHE Four to five paces. At the time when you shot at the deceased what did Mr Faltein do? MR NCUBE He also had his firearm in his hand. He was kneeling with his knee but I never heard any shot from his gun, really. MR MPSHE As you say, he had knelt down, he was on his knees and he had produced his gun. Would you say the manner in which he held his gun and the manner in which he knelt down he was about to do something with the gun? MR NCUBE That's correct, he was going to use the gun. MR MPSHE Besides the non-use of the gun by Mr Faltein, what else did he do, Faltein? MR NCUBE Are you referring to what I did to the deceased, after killing him? 3 MR MPSHE: /... 48 MR NCUBE MR MPSHE ... on the deceased. MR NCUBE Nothing, Sir. He did nothing to the deceased. MR MPSHE After you had killed the deceased, what did you do? MR NCUBE I just stood and looked at him and I was telling myself he didn't know what he was doing. I didn't run away after shooting him, I just stood and I walked away after a few minutes. The township was now jubilant. People were really shouting words of happiness. There was peace in the township. People were happy after the incident. CHAIRMAN We are talking about the incident itself, at the time of the shooting. Not what happened after the shooting. You say that after you shot him you stood there, you looked at him and you walked away. You did nothing else. MR NCUBE Nothing else, Sir MR MPSHE If we can be told by a witness a deed that has been done, that it is the deceased who first gave chase on you people and whilst chasing you, you turned around and shot at him, will that be correct? MR NCUBE That the deceased chased me and I turn around and shot at him, yes, that's correct, Sir, because when they came out of 658 they had their guns in their hands and they said there are the comrades, let us shoot at him and they said there is Themba, they knew us very well. MR MPSHE Going back a little bit as to the shooting itself and the circumstances thereof, I get the impression that you shot at the deceased you shot the deceased at the time when you were on your way to go and report to the Executive Committee, am I correct? MR NCUBE No, that is not correct, Sir. That is the version 3 MR MPSHE: /... 49 MR NCUBE MR MPSHE What is the version then? MR NCUBE I was from the squatter camp which happened to be my hiding place. MR MPSHE Where to were you going, or did you go straight out to go and kill him? MR NCUBE I was from the squatter camp heading for my home in the Xhosa Section. MR MPSHE What were you to do at Mqukeni? MR NCUBE The fellow comrades in the struggle stay in the squatter camp and most of the times I'd be in their presence. MR MPSHE Then from there you are on your way home. MR NCUBE Correct. MR MPSHE When were you to report to the Executive Committee that you are around? MR NCUBE I reported on the same day of my arrival, that is the day I reported to the Executive Committee. MR MPSHE The gun which you said you got from the ANC branch, which branch was it? MR NCUBE It was the Khutsong branch. MR MPSHE ... branches have names, Sir. MR NCUBE It was Khutsong branch. MR MPSHE Who is the chairperson of the Khutsong branch. MR NCUBE Dan Mzeko. MR MPSHE (Question inaudible) MR NCUBE That's correct, Sir. MR MPSHE When you were given this gun by the leadership of the Khutsong ANC branch, what were you to do with it? MR NCUBE I was supposed to defend the community with this gun. MR MPSHE Was that your instruction by the leadership? 3 MR NCUBE: /... 50 MR NCUBE MR NCUBE That's correct, Sir. MR MPSHE Finally, the killing of David Mayeko, was it ever discussed at an ANC meeting or an SDU meeting? CHAIRMAN Before the incident or after the incident? MR MPSHE Before the incident. Was it ever discussed that this man has got to be removed? MR NCUBE Yes, at school we used to talk about this David Mayeko issue, that was before he was killed. You know some of the comrades at school were talking about this issue. MR MPSHE If this was discussed by the leadership either of the self-defence unit or the ANC Executive or the ANC Youth League? MR NCUBE No, I only heard it being discussed at school as a member of the ANC Youth League and I was supposed to be present and listening to what the discussion was all about. MR MPSHE Neither the self-defence unit nor the Khutsong branch ANC nor the ANC Youth League ever discussed the death of Mayeko. Is that what I should gather from you? MR NCUBE No, it is not that way, Sir. The way I explained this, I was still schooling and many students died and that is why I say to you this issue was discussed at school that this man has finished the community and he has finished the students, he has to follow them, he has to be removed. MR MPSHE Mr Ncube, I am talking about structures, well-known structures, whether this was discussed at any of the three structures? I am not referring to the township. MR NCUBE No, I never heard of this in the ANC offices, I have never heard of any discussion of any kind. MR MPSHE The SDUs? MR NCUBE I also heard it from the self-defence units. 3 JUDGE NGOEPE: /... 51 MR NCUBE JUDGE NGOEPE Why does it take you so long really to come to such simple answers? Now when was it discussed by the SDUs? MR NCUBE We were patrolling at night and as we were busy patrolling we were talking about this issue. CHAIRMAN ... find out whether this was decided or discussed at a meeting and a decision taken. That is what you are really after, isn't it? MR MPSHE Was this discussed or decided upon at any meeting of a formal structure? MR NCUBE I think I can always say that the killing of David Mayeko was discussed by the SDU, the self-defence units as we were patrolling, but the decisions I never came to know as to whether Mayeko was supposed to be killed or not. MR MPSHE Let's try for the last time. The discussion by the SDU, was it done at a meeting? MR NCUBE Not in a meeting, Sir. MR MPSHE By pumping David Mayeko with a pump gun, what did you want to achieve? MR NCUBE I wanted peace from this man. CHAIRMAN I got the impression that you shot him because you were afraid that he was going to shoot you. Is that the reason? MR NCUBE No, I was just trying to tell the Committee that their attack was in such a position that I was also supposed to defend myself. MR MPSHE In your response to the Chairperson you say you were defending yourself, is that correct? MR NCUBE That's correct. MR MPSHE In other words, what you wanted to gain was your 4 life/... 52 MR NCUBE life. MR NCUBE I was defending myself. MR MPSHE I want to put it to you finally that when you killed David the aim was not to achieve any peace nor stability to defend yourself, and I am going to read from your application what you said at page 4 thereof, it will be the eighth line from the bottom of page 4, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee. If the Chair allows me I will read that portion "On the 24th December 1990 I was on my way to see my parents as I was nostalgic. When I was to reach my home the vigilante system attacked and shot indiscriminately. I had a pump action gun in my possession. I then drew it and shot. I did not aim at anyone. I was just trying to open my way. Most unfortunately or fortunately ....." And then the sentence stops. Did you hear that? MR NCUBE Yes, I've heard that. MR MPSHE What do you mean by "they shot indiscriminately, I did not aim at anyone, I just wanted to pave way for myself"? MR NCUBE Sir, it is not that way. Let me tell you the right version. I was heading for my home on the day I shot Mayeko. It was my intention to go home using the same street. Now when I was in the same road, 658, it is a road that I use when I go to school, when I go anywhere, and when I was in that street this group of men, David Mayeko, Constable Makonza, Scarface and Daniel Sgoqo and David Maseko, they went out of this 658 and they attacked me together with ny co-accused because they saw we were heading for the direction where I stayed and when they pulled out 4 their/... 53 MR NCUBE their guns because as a human being I realised that no, these people are going to kill me because they hunt me at night and they hunt me during the day, not knowing the reasons therefor, and I decided to take out my gun. I pointed it at them and I shot. That is the story. CHAIRMAN Is this in his handwriting? MR MPSHE It is in his handwriting, Mr Chairman. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Mpshe, are you ...(intervention). MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, this forms part of his application, but in view of what the chair has said I can take this up with him whether this is in his handwriting. My apologies for having jumped the gun. Just have a look at that statement, more particularly the handwriting. Is that your handwriting, is that what you said? Please be vocal. Is that your handwriting? MR NCUBE Yes. MR MPSHE Is that what you wrote? MR NCUBE Yes, I wrote that. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE ADV DE JAGER Could we just clear up, Adv Dlavane. The application for amnesty on robbery, is that also withdrawn, or is it only malicious damage that you've withdrawn? ADV DLAVANE Robbery as well. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you regard yourself as a political activist during that time? MR NCUBE That is correct, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Were you still at school? MR NCUBE Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE You say that the deceased was discussed on various occasions at school amongst fellow students. Were they also comrades? 4 MR NCUBE: /... 54 MR NCUBE MR NCUBE Yes, that is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Was the deceased a notorious person? MR NCUBE He was very notorious for his actions. JUDGE NGOEPE Which include the killing of people, such as Nsavi Uys and so on and so forth? MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE NGOEPE And you said he had been bought by whites to kill political activists. What made you think so? MR NCUBE This man was not working, this man was wearing very expensive clothes, this man was carrying a gun during the day and at night. The same man, even when I was passing going to town, I would see him in the company of policemen drinking beer and that is why I say this man was bought by the police. JUDGE NGOEPE Was he ever arrested at any stage? MR NCUBE Not at any stage. JUDGE NGOEPE Have you ever seen him in the possession of a firearm in the presence of the police? MR NCUBE Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE To which police station were those policemen attached? MR NCUBE Khutsong Police Station. JUDGE NGOEPE Is that police station here in this township? MR NCUBE Yes, it is the police station in the township. JUDGE NGOEPE This township is Ikageng, am I right, where we are sitting now? Never mind, where is Khutsong Township? MR NCUBE Khutsong is in Gauteng Province. (NOISE) JUDGE NGOEPE I am asking the applicant very important questions to try and help him clarify very important things in his case. If you keep on interfering you will confuse him. Please don't. Where did the deceased live, in which 4 township/... 55 MR NCUBE township? MR NCUBE He was living in Khutsong. JUDGE NGOEPE Now the policeman in whose company he was on occasions seen possessing a firearm were there policemen attached to Khutsong Police Station? MR NCUBE They were the policemen at Khutsong, Welverdien Police Station. CHAIRMAN I am sorry, I didn't hear. What police station? MR NCUBE: Welverdien. JUDGE NGOEPE We will understand that as Welverdiend Police Station. Where is it situated? MR NCUBE It is towards Khutsong direction. When you go straight, when you are taking the Johannesburg road. ADV DE JAGER It is on the highway between Carltonville and Potchefstroom, is that correct? Welverdiend, it is between the two. MR NCUBE Yes, it is between. JUDGE NGOEPE You mentioned the name of a policeman or policemen with whom he was on the day that you shot him. Who was that policeman? MR NCUBE It was Konstabel Nkonza and Scarface and Daniel Sgoqo, David Maseko. JUDGE NGOEPE Are they policemen? MR NCUBE David Maseko is not a policeman. JUDGE NGOEPE Let's start again. Nkonza? MR NCUBE It was Konstabel Nkonza, Scarface and Basie. JUDGE NGOEPE To which police station were they attached? MR NCUBE They were also members of Khutsong Police Station. JUDGE NGOEPE With respect to the death of Msabi, Themba, Uys, Phiri, was there anybody arrested in respect of those 4 murders/... 55 MR NCUBE murders? MR NCUBE Nobody was arrested. JUDGE NGOEPE Were these people killed in Khutsong? MR NCUBE Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE Were they comrades? MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Did anyone of them occupy a position of leadership? MR NCUBE They were not leaders, they were just students. JUDGE NGOEPE Do you know where Konstabel Mkoza is, Scarface and Basie, do you know where they are and where they are now? MR NCUBE I do not know their way about as we are talking now. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you people not at any stage talk with the US either as members of the SDU and/or the ANC Youth League, did you not confront the police and ask them why they allow this sort of thing to prevail, to happen? MR NCUBE It was difficult to go to the police and negotiate with them because there was nothing that they would say to us as comrades. JUDGE NGOEPE You didn't have confidence in the police. MR NCUBE Not at all. JUDGE NGOEPE Now tell me, I read in the newspapers many years ago that many so-called comrades from various areas took refuge with Father Paul in Soweto, was that correct? MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Did they come from different places other than Khutsong where you came from? MR NCUBE They were from different places. JUDGE NGOEPE Were they all members of ANC Youth League as 4 far/... 56 MR NCUBE far as you know? MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Just tell me. Why did you leave your home? MR NCUBE I left my home because of the police and the members of the vigilante group. I didn't want them to come and harass my parents because of me. Because everyday my parents would say Themba, there were people here looking for you carrying guns. It is better if you leave and hide yourself somewhere else. JUDGE NGOEPE And then you left. MR NCUBE I left. JUDGE WILSON When was that? MR NCUBE What are you referring to, Sir? JUDGE WILSON When did you leave your parents, when did you leave home? MR NCUBE I left my home in 1988. JUDGE NGOEPE And then you I assume occasionally kept on coming back home from time to time? MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE NGOEPE And when you left home you were still a student? MR NCUBE I was still a student. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you have to abandon your studies? MR NCUBE Yes, I stopped studying. JUDGE NGOEPE You were never able to resume your studies? MR NCUBE I am corresponding in prison. I am continuing with my studies. JUDGE NGOEPE Why did you think your life was in danger, as a result of what? MR NCUBE I thought that my life was in danger because my organisation, which is the ANC, was still banned and we were 4 just/... 57 MR NCUBE just toyi-toying. And the whites would see us toyi-toying and they would go to ask my parents as to why was I toyi-toying and they would kill me. JUDGE NGOEPE Except that in 1988 the vigilante was not there, was it? MR NCUBE It was not present in 1988. JUDGE NGOEPE It came into existence, we were told, around 1990. MR NCUBE Yes, it was formed in 1990. JUDGE NGOEPE (Question inaudible) MR NCUBE That's correct, Sir. JUDGE WILSON Did you leave school in 1988 when you left your home and stopped studying then? MR NCUBE Yes. JUDGE WILSON I am a little confused because you told us a short while ago, as I understood your evidence, that at school you used to talk about the deceased and the vigilantes, but you left school before they came. Can you explain? MR NCUBE Can I explain? I was not studying any more. I used to go to the school to pay my comrades a visit because even in school there was a lot of harassment. ADV DE JAGER Who was clothing you in the meantime, supplied your clothes and food? MR NCUBE The person who was clothing me, giving me food I do not just understand what kind of a question is this. Do you refer to now or when I was still an infant? ADV DE JAGER I know the Government is clothing you now in prison, but before you went to prison. MR NCUBE Are you referring to the clothes from the gaol, Sir? 4 ADV DE JAGER: /... 58 MR NCUBE ADV DE JAGER While you were away, 1988 till 1990, who cared for you and who gave you food and clothes? MR NCUBE I was doing everything for myself. ADV DE JAGER But you didn't work. MR NCUBE No, I wasn't working. ADV DE JAGER Is that why you robbed the vehicles? MR NCUBE That's correct. ADV DE JAGER In order to clothe yourself and to have food to eat. MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE NGOEPE I believe that as a member of the SDU you were instructed to defend the community. MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE NGOEPE Was that the reason why you were given that firearm? MR NCUBE That's the reason, Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE How were you to defend the community, were there limits to it? Could you for example kill other people? MR NCUBE No, I would never kill people who do not have anything against me, innocent people. JUDGE NGOEPE What about people who were not innocent? I am trying to find out from you whether you understood your instructions from the SDU or whatever when they gave you the firearm, I want to know from you whether you understood that to mean that should the need arise you should use that gun and if necessary in defence kill. That is all I want to find out from you. MR NCUBE Yes, there were such decisions. JUDGE NGOEPE But no particular person was targeted as to be killed. 4 MR NCUBE: /... 59 MR NCUBE MR NCUBE No, there was no person indicated as our target. JUDGE WILSON I understand that you were living in Soweto from 1988 to 1990, is that correct? MR NCUBE I was in Soweto from 1988 to 1990? JUDGE WILSON 1988 to 1990. You left school in 1988 didn't you? MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE WILSON And you left home, as I understand your evidence, and you went to live at Soweto, is that so? MR NCUBE I just went to Soweto, you know, just to go and take a few rounds and come back. JUDGE WILSON Oh, you didn't go and live. I understood from what you said to my brother that when you went to live with Father Paul in Soweto. You took refuge with him, you told us many comrades took refuge with him and they were all members of the ANC Youth League, but now you say you didn't. MR NCUBE I was staying at Father Paul's place. JUDGE WILSON For how long? MR NCUBE I spent about two months at Father Paul's mission, two to three months. JUDGE WILSON And then where did you go? MR NCUBE From Father Paul's mission I came back to the township. JUDGE WILSON And did you from then on support yourself by robbing and stealing, is that so? MR NCUBE That's not correct. JUDGE WILSON Well, you didn't work. You were asked if anybody supported you and you gave no name. Will you tell us how you supported yourself? MR NCUBE I have parents, parents were taking care of me. Those were the people who were giving me food and every time 4 when/... 60 MR NCUBE when I went to them to cry they would help. JUDGE WILSON You didn't say that a few minutes ago. Why were you so hesitant? MR NCUBE As I tell you I have parents who help me when I do not have anything. They help me in such a way - they even helped me when I was from Father Paul's mission. JUDGE WILSON I have no information direct myself, I am merely looking at the documents that have been put up, and in there the document dealing with your record it says that the person you killed was 18 years old at the time, is that correct? MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE WILSON Was he still at school? MR NCUBE In which year, Sir? JUDGE WILSON In the year that he was killed, 1990. MR NCUBE I was not schooling in 1990. JUDGE WILSON Was he at school, the young man you killed, Mayeko? MR NCUBE No. JUDGE WILSON But he was only 18. You told us that you came home on the night of the 23rd December, is that correct? At about what time did you come home? MR NCUBE It was round about seven to eight o'clock. JUDGE WILSON And did you go the same night to the Executive Committee? MR NCUBE Yes, I went to the Executive Committee the same night because I didn't have any time to stay at home. I suspected that any time people might come to pick me up. JUDGE WILSON And did you take William Faltein with you? MR NCUBE Yes. JUDGE WILSON What time did you get to the Executive 4 Committee/... 61 MR NCUBE Committee do you think? MR NCUBE I didn't have a watch at that time, I can't tell. I didn't even ask time. JUDGE WILSON Was it during the course of the night? MR NCUBE Yes. JUDGE WILSON And they issued you with the one gun which we've heard was a pumpgun shotgun. Did they issue your friend William with a gun? MR NCUBE Yes. JUDGE WILSON You were each issued with a gun that evening. MR NCUBE I received a gun. JUDGE WILSON And so did William, is that correct? MR NCUBE I do not know, because I just saw him having a gun. I got the gun on the same night but I don't know about Faltein, but I just saw him in possession of a gun. JUDGE WILSON And how long did you stay there? Did you stay the whole night there or did you leave during the course of the night? MR NCUBE The same night we went back. JUDGE WILSON Went back home. MR NCUBE Yes. JUDGE WILSON So you got home that night. MR NCUBE Not at home. JUDGE WILSON What did you do? MR NCUBE We went to the squatter camp to other comrades. JUDGE WILSON You weren't anxious to get home, you went to the squatter camp and you spent the next day there, did you? MR NCUBE I have already seen my parents and there were other friends of mine whom I did not see before, and I decided to go straight to the hiding place together with the 4 other/.. 62 MR NCUBE other comrades. JUDGE WILSON But wasn't that where you were living, in the squatter camp? MR NCUBE No, that was just my hiding place. JUDGE WILSON Well where were you living? MR NCUBE I was staying in the same street with my co-accused, No 652. JUDGE WILSON Were you staying with him and you decided to go home again the next afternoon, did you? MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE WILSON I am asking you this because in your amnesty application form you referred to how you were feeling nostalgic and wanted to see your parents. But you had seen them the night before, hadn't you? MR NCUBE Yes, I had seen them, that is my father and my mother. JUDGE WILSON And you arrived at 658, the deceased's home, that afternoon, is that correct? MR NCUBE That's correct. JUDGE WILSON And on your version, as I understand it, nobody, neither he nor any of his friends fired a shot, but you killed him, is that correct? MR NCUBE That is correct. JUDGE WILSON But you say you were doing it in self-defence. MR NCUBE I was defending myself. CHAIRMAN That's despite the fact that the deceased was accompanied by three policemen, each of whom was armed. MR NCUBE That's correct, Sir. CHAIRMAN And none of them fired at you. MR NCUBE Not even one. 4 MS KHAMPEPE: /... 63 MR NCUBE MS KHAMPEPE Mr Ncube, in your evidence you stated that you were given the pump gun by the ANC prior to December 1990, at least on the 24th December. I am not sure whether I understood your evidence in that regard, when were you given the gun by the ANC? MR NCUBE The pump gun was at all times present. That is the first rifle I was given. MS KHAMPEPE Was it always in your possession, or at times you had to return it to the Executive? MR NCUBE We used to take it back to the Executive to be stored. MS KHAMPEPE Now how many people were given firearms by the Executive for purposes of protecting the community? MR NCUBE When I received this I was just concerned about myself. I only saw other comrades in possession of guns not knowing when were they given guns. MS KHAMPEPE But were those guns given to members of the SDU by the Executive branch of the ANC, to your knowledge? MR NCUBE Yes, according to my knowledge, that is the correct version. MS KHAMPEPE You knew the deceased for quite some time, you actually grew up together. When did he become a gangster? MR NCUBE He started in the same year, 1990. MS KHAMPEPE Prior thereto he was not involved in any criminal activity? MR NCUBE No, prior to that he wasn't just a criminal. He was just playing gambling games. MS KHAMPEPE When did your area experience a period of instability, that is Khutsong? MR NCUBE At the Xhosa section the conflict started in 1990. It was in 1990. 4 MS KHAMPEPE: /... 64 MR NCUBE MS KHAMPEPE And what was the cause of the instability? MR NCUBE This conflict between ourselves and these men was because of a few reasons that I've mentioned earlier on, that the ANC wanted free political activities. We wanted to have meetings, we wanted to conduct our funerals in our way, but things never turned out to be that way. MS KHAMPEPE I am just trying to reconcile your evidence. You've stated that you had to leave your area in 1988 to seek refuge in Orlando West because your life was in danger. MR NCUBE That's correct. MS KHAMPEPE Your life was in danger in 1988 not because of the activities of the vigilante group. MR NCUBE That is correct. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV DLAVANE CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. Mr Mpshe, can we begin at 09.30 tomorrow morning? MR MPSHE It is possible at 09.30. CHAIRMAN Before we adjourn, Mr Mpshe, are there are dependants of the deceased or relatives of the deceased who might be interested? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, there are documents that I want to bring to the attention of the Committee members pertaining to the question that Mr Chairman has just asked. There are no dependants available. That is a report from the investigative unit to that effect. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. This Committee is now going to adjourn until 09.30 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS 4 MS MPSHE:/... 65 MR MPSHE: Chairman and members of the committee, you will recall that the name of Mr Ndzeku was made mention of the two applicants yesterday. His attendance to this committee today will be to clarify facts like what was happening at the time in Kusong. He was mentioned to have been the member of the executive committee of the ANC at the time. At present he is the mayor of Carltonville in Kusong, Kusong is the township near Carltonville. DAN NDZEKU (ss) QUESTION: Mr Ndzeku I have already explained to this Committee the purpose of your attendance today. The two applicants who appeared before this Committee yesterday, namely Mr Foltuin William and John (indistinct). Do you know these two persons? ANSWER: Yes I do. QUESTION: The two have explained to the Committee that at that time during the period of 1990 they were serving as members of the ANC Youth Congress, served in its self-defence unit. You Mr Ndzeku was one of the executive members of the ANC at the time. Can you confirm that? ANSWER: Yes it is so. QUESTION: They were members of, what you are complaining is they were the members of the African National Congress, Youth Congress and further you are complaining that it is true that you was a member of the executive committee of the ANC at that time, is that so? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: In the evidence before this Committee they have explained that being members of the structure of the ANC as mentioned, they were in battle or at war with a group of vigilantes. Do you know of this group of vigilantes? 1. ANSWER: /... 66 D NDZEKU ANSWER: Yes I do. QUESTION They are serving sentences for having killed a certain Mr Majeko who they alleged to have been the leader of this vigilante group. Did you know this David Majeko, you as Mr Ndzeku? ANSWER: Yes I did. QUESTION: Is it true that this Mr David Majeko was the leader of this vigilante group in Kusong? ANSWER: I won't say a leader as such but he was one of the prominent members of the vigilante group. QUESTION: They mentioned that this vigilante group was on the campaign of stabilisation in Kusong, names were mentioned before the Committee that was said were killed by this vigilante group, rob and rape, can you confirm what this vigilante group was doing in Kusong. ANSWER: Yes it is. QUESTION: What did they do from your knowledge? ANSWER: They were actually conducting a reign of terror in the township, killing community members, maiming some and gene-rally subjecting to the township to a reign of lawlessness. QUESTION: They killed David Majeko they informed this Committee that they did so and they were in fact acting under the auspices... JUDGE WILSON: They did not do so, one of them said he shot, the other one said he did nothing at all. QUESTION: As the member of this Committee is saying, we had to attitudes, William Fortuin who said that he was involved but he did not do anything and Johnson Ncube who shot at the deceased. At the time they told this Committee that they were acting in their capacity and under the auspices of the ANC and the executive committee of the ANC. 1. They /... 67 D NDZEKU They were actually acting under command of their executive committee. JUDGE WILSON: Who is that? ATTORNEY: The executive committee of the ANC Youth League. CHAIRMAN: Just to get the thing in context did I understand the evidence wrongly, I got the impression that they said that they had no intention to kill this man, it is when this man came there with others who were armed and he feared that he might be killed that that is why he opened fire and killed the man. He was not acting under anybody's instructions at the time because he'd not anticipated killing this man. Is that not what happened? ATTORNEY: Chairperson the question maybe should have been that when they were acting against the group generally, acting against the vigilantes they were acting as members of the organisation. JUDGE WILSON: The evidence was that on this day they were on their way home, you are now trying to put a completely different version as you did when you led the witnesses. Will you please not put matters as fact, as you were now doing to this witness, the evidence we heard was that they were going home. They had no intention of doing anything and this man rushed out of his house at them, is that not so? Is that not the evidence they gave? ATTORNEY: Chairperson that is the evidence they gave, it is when I refer to the actual commission of the offence, they were acting then as it has been described by the Chairperson, but like I'm saying the question should have been that when they were acting against the group of vigilantes generally so. I accept the clarification thereof and I will refrain from asking a question in that 1. fashion /... 67 D NDZEKU fashion again. They were armed, do you know where this group did gather their arms from Mr Ndzeku? ANSWER: From the information that we had at the time was that they were donations which were made particularly among the informal settlement communities, whereby arms were then purchased through those donations. MS ............: Mr Ndzeku, the group that you are referring to is it the vigilante group or are you referring to members of the SDU, I'm a little confused? ANSWER: The members of the SDU. QUESTION: So it is so that the community as you mentioned were in total support of these members of the SDU's? ANSWER: Yes that is correct. QUESTION: No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ATTORNEY QUESTION: (Inaudible). ANSWER: I was a secretary general of the branch. QUESTION: Was the ANC aware of the activities of the vigilante group? ANSWER: Yes everybody in the community was aware. QUESTION: Was there any formal decision taken by the ANC at any stage about how they should cope with the problem presented by this vigilante group? ANSWER: There was no formal decision that was taken. QUESTION: Was anybody authorised to single out members of this vigilante group and if possible, put them out of the way? ANSWER: No. QUESTION: No such decision taken by the congress? ANSWER: No. QUESTION: Did you have anything to do with the SDU? 1. ANSWER: /... 68 D NDZEKU ANSWER: Not directly. QUESTION: Are you aware of any decision taken by the SDU on how members of the vigilante group should be dealt with? ANSWER: Not formally, I might be aware but not formally. QUESTION: Thank you. QUESTION: Mr Ndzeku you said you know Mr Fortuin and Ngcube, could you be specific to us and tell us in what capacity did you know them? ANSWER: At that time in question there were members of the youth league, the ANC youth league in Kusong. QUESTION: And you did certainly did testify that you knew the deceased David Mayeko? What is it that made you know this man specifically, what made him prominent? ANSWER: It was the fact that he was notorious. QUESTION: He was? ANSWER: He was notorious in the community. QUESTION: Would you say by being notorious you mean that he was a criminal in the area? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Did he belong to any political organisation or movement or body? ANSWER: He did not belong to a political organisation but he was a member of the vigilante group. QUESTION: Would I be incorrect if I said this vigilante group of which he was a member was taking any member of the community, irrespective of political convictions? ANSWER: We are (indistinct) were actually directed mostly towards the political activists, especially the youth. QUESTION: No I believe the Committee would like to know more about that, what makes you say that threats were directed against activists? 1. ANSWER: /... 69 D NDZEKU ANSWER: Maybe I would, it would help the Commission maybe if I would put the whole scenario in its correct perspective? What actually happened was it was the end of 1989, there was a group of youth that broke away, actually defected from the ANC Youth League. QUESTION: A group of youth did what? JUDGE WILSON: Defected. ANSWER: Defected from the ANC Youth League and then embarked, and then embarked on a reign of terror, terrorising the community, killing and maiming in the process. QUESTION: Do you know the reason why this group broke away from the ANC? ANSWER: I don't know of any specific reason. QUESTION: You may continue. ANSWER: Thereafter, what actually happened was most of the attacks were then directed towards the business people who in turn some of the business people formed themselves, organised themselves into a vigilante group with a purpose of defending their properties. In the process the whole game changed whereby their attacks became more and more concentrated and aimed at the political activists. JUDGE WILSON: Whose attacks were these, the defectors from the ANC or the vigilantes from the business community? ANSWER: The vigilantes. JUDGE WILSON: There were still the defectors from the ANC? ANSWER: I beg your pardon? JUDGE WILSON: There were still a group of defectors from the ANC? ANSWER: No. JUDGE WILSON: What happened to them? 1. ANSWER: /... 70 D NDZEKU ANSWER: What I'm saying was the group that formed themselves into the vigilantes were then in war against this small group of defectors, but in the process their attacks were not only aimed at those defectors, that small group of thugs, it spread over to include and to concentrate more on the political activists. QUESTION: Just for clarity's sake Mr Ndzeku, are you now saying that some of the members of the vigilante group were businessmen in the area, is that what you are saying? ANSWER: Originally that was the set-up. QUESTION: Right, no as it went on, with the inclusion of the known people like David Mayeko, were there still businessmen amongst the vigilantes? ANSWER: No, the composition of the vigilante group took a different turn altogether when they were joined by thugs such as the person you mentioned. QUESTION: Mr Ndzeku, when did this vigilante group come into existence, which consisted initially of business people? ANSWER: That was early 89, early 90 sorry yes. QUESTION: Mr Ndzeku you say that this group of vigilante of which David Mayeko was a member, would you say there was any authority that controlled them or gave them instructions? ANSWER: I won't know of the authority behind their actions. QUESTION: Would you regard them perhaps as just a gang of criminals terrorising the township? ANSWER: I would rather say they were just a group, a gang of thugs. QUESTION: Names like Scarface and more specifically a 1. person /... 71 D NDZEKU person called Constable Nkonsa, does it make any sense to you? ANSWER: Constable Nkonsa I know. QUESTION: How do you know Constable Nkonsa in relation to the vigilantes? ANSWER: He was one of the policemen who were seen to be colluding with the vigilantes. QUESTION: And Scarface? ANSWER: Scarface as well. QUESTION: How do you come to conclude that they were colluding with the vigilantes, what had you seen? ANSWER: From the statements that we took from the youth, in collaboration with members of the Human Rights Commission, it became very clear that the police were arming this vigilante group and in many occasions they were seen in their company which led the community to be convinced that they were in cahoots with them. QUESTION: Has you yourself Mr Ndzeku seen the police in the company of this vigilante group? ANSWER: On many occasions. QUESTION: On many occasions, under what circumstances? ANSWER: In police vans, in shebeens and some other social gatherings. QUESTION: Did you see them in the company of the vigilante just as friends drinking together or perhaps having a (indistinct) or under what circumstances would you say they were together? ANSWER: I think I've mentioned already the circumstances. QUESTION: Yes you have mentioned them but you have not mentioned what I've said now. I will repeat, did you see them together just as friends or as people bent on doing 1. something /... 72 D NDZEKU something (indistinct). ANSWER: They were moving together, personally I haven't seen them committing any action or act together. MR (?): I'm always surprised, not that I'm inhibiting your cross-examination, it always baffles me that witnesses are expected to, in support of an allegation with the police, are always expected to, almost expected to say that we did see these people actually committing an offence with the police. How can the policeman ever openly and publicly commit crimes in collusion with criminals? I'm not referring to your question in particular, it's just a general observation. QUESTION: Mr Ndzeku do you a person by the name of Captain Van Graan, he was mentioned by Fortuin? ANSWER: Yes I do. QUESTION: What do you know about him in relation to the vigilante group? ANSWER: What I know was that he was a Captain at the local police station, at the Welfortuin(?) police station. Personally I haven't seen him in the company of the said group. QUESTION: You may not have seen him but do you know of any relationship between Captain Van Graan and the vigilante group? ANSWER: Not directly. QUESTION: Ngcube yesterday when he was asked about the possession of the gun or the pump gun, he said this was given to him by the ANC executive, do you have any knowledge about this? ANSWER: No specific knowledge, it might have happened in my absence. 1. JUDGE /... 73 D NDZEKU JUDGE WILSON: His evidence appeared to indicate that this gun was kept by the ANC executive committee and that he was given it on more than one occasion by them. Was it the practice of the ANC executive committee to keep firearms and to issue them to people? ANSWER: The executive never kept arms and they were never given to the Youth League in my presence. QUESTION: Mr Ndzeku did you have two executive committees, one which was in relation to the South African Youth League and probably the one which was for the local branch of the ANC? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Is it possible therefore that the executive committee which was referred to might have been the one of the South African Youth League? ANSWER: The ANC Youth League. QUESTION: The ANC Youth League? ANSWER: It is possible. QUESTION: Do you recall the name of a person belonging to the ANC called Nonjepe? ANSWER: Yes I do. QUESTION: To which executive did she belong? ANSWER: She belonged to the civic association, she was an executive member of the civic association. QUESTION: Is this civic association different from the SDU? ANSWER: Yes it is. QUESTION: Did the ANC executive have a office in Kusong? ANSWER: Not an office as a structure. QUESTION: No? ANSWER: No. 1. QUESTION: /... 74 D NDZEKU QUESTION: To your knowledge did the Youth League have an office? ANSWER: Now it has, it did not have during that time. QUESTION: I'm left with the impression that because of the circumstances of the time the Youth League operated mainly from the informal settlement? ANSWER: Yes during the period you are referring to now they were actually based in the informal settlement. QUESTION: Probably for reasons of security? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Mr Ndzeku you were the general secretary of the branch, of the ANC branch at the time? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: The fact that the vigilante group was allegedly armed or colluding with the police, did it trouble you, in other words your branch? ANSWER: Yes it did. QUESTION: Was this matter raised with the police at any time? ANSWER: On many occasions. QUESTION: Tell us a little bit more, who especially did you direct yourselves to? ANSWER: What we did we send out a delegation to meet the General, the Commissioner, the area Commissioner in Potchefstroom whose name I am just forgetting now, where the concerns of the community were then raised vis-a-vis the alleged collusion between the police and this vigilante group, but it was always accompanied by denials from the General and some senior police officers. QUESTION: You did not take it up with the local, the then local station commander in Kusong? 1. ANSWER: /... 75 D NDZEKU ANSWER: Our meeting with the General, the area Commissioner was the last resort after we have exhausted all other avenues from the branch or the station commander, the Captains, the Colonels and all other senior officials. QUESTION: They were all denying it? ANSWER: They denied it. QUESTION: After the initial denials say by the local police station or the station commander, did impressions persist nevertheless that there was such collusions? ANSWER: Yes they did. QUESTION: After speaking with the General did impressions of collusions cease or they persisted? ANSWER: Unfortunately the persisted. QUESTION: The statements that you took in collaboration with I believe is it Lawyers for Human Rights? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: From whom did you take those statements, what sort of people? ANSWER: We were taking, obtaining the statements from the victims of attacks by the police, together with the vigilantes, on the members of the community. QUESTION: What happened to those statements? ANSWER: They were ultimately used in the courts of law at the cases of harassment, torture and beatings against some members of the police. QUESTION: Civil cases or criminal prosecutions? ANSWER: It was both the civil and criminal cases. QUESTION: Are you able to mention a few names to us of the people who gave... ANSWER: Yes, a certain Mrs Lomandla. QUESTION: Is she one of the people who made such 1b. statements /... 76 D NDZEKU statements? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Can she be found as far as you know? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Where does she stay? ANSWER: She stays in Kusong. QUESTION: If one were to contact your office would you be able to give information to locate her? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Before I go further about her, let me understand this would she be, as far as you recall, would she be one of the people who would throw more light on the question of collaboration with the police? ANSWER: Yes, her husband was actually murdered by the vigilantes. QUESTION: Sorry could you please repeat your last answer? ANSWER: I was saying Mrs Lomandla, her husband was murdered by the vigilantes, she was just an ordinary person. QUESTION: I don't expect to exhaust all the names that, the names of the people from whom you took statements who could give such information, but I would like you if you can to furnish a few more names because this issue of collaboration with the police has emerged many times, not only in the township, but in many townships. Just furnish more names please if you can? ANSWER: There was a youngster by the name of Nexon (indistinct), unfortunately he is late(?) now. QUESTION: So he's out now he can't help us. ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Let's get on to someone else. JUDGE WILSON: Can I interrupt for a moment? Were these 1b. statements /... 77 D NDZEKU statements taken by Lawyers for Human Rights or were they taken by you? ANSWER: Yes they were taken by the Lawyers for Human Rights and the independent board of enquiry. QUESTION: Would they have copies of all the statements they took? ANSWER: The people I'm sure that are still having the copies, I remember so far the researchers from the independent board of enquiry. QUESTION: Where are they? ANSWER: The statement? QUESTION: No, where are these people? ANSWER: They are in Jo'burg. QUESTION: You would have their address for further contact to them? ANSWER: (No audible reply). QUESTION: We will leave that aspect there. To a question asked you said that there were no instructions from any structure as far as you know that specific people be killed? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Did the killing of the deceased surprise you, did it come as a surprise? ANSWER: Given the situation then it was no surprise. QUESTION: Sorry I will have to ask you this just to tidy up this aspect. You say given the situation, just contextualise your answer I don't want to put words into your mouth I would like you yourself to contextualise your answer. I have a good picture in my mind what situation you are referring to but I'll be a lot happier if you did that yourself. ANSWER: I would maybe go to the extent of saying the 1b. situation /... 78 D NDZEKU situation that existed then was that of war because of the pitched battles that was fought. QUESTION: Between? ANSWER: The vigilantes and the political activists, mainly the youth. QUESTION: What was at stake? ANSWER: I think what was at stake was a free political activity. QUESTION: Was it there? ANSWER: No. QUESTION: Why not? ANSWER: Just because of the harassment of the political activists by the vigilantes with the police. QUESTION: While on that aspect, one of the applicants made reference to interference by vigilantes at so-called political funerals, that is at the vigils held in respect of some of the comrades and I can't remember something else, maybe I will remember it but what is your comment on the aspect that I have made? ANSWER: That is a correct statement. QUESTION: In what other way did they inhibit political activity, that is the vigilantes? ANSWER: I think in the main those already mentioned, interference with political gatherings, funerals and the night vigils in the main. QUESTION: To your knowledge did at any time some of the, especially, well did some of the political activists have to run away from Kusong? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Why, what was the cause? ANSWER: They were in fear of their lives because we 1b. actually /... 79 D NDZEKU actually advised them to get out of the area for their own safety. QUESTION: Eventually peace prevailed or relative peace prevailed in Kusong, at some time or another, am I right? ANSWER: Hmm. QUESTION: After what events did peace, relative peace prevail? ANSWER: It was after a series of peace talks that were held, mostly by the local leadership, trying to bring the two warring factions together. QUESTION: Sorry who initiated these peace talks, I missed that one? ANSWER: The executive committee and the other leaders in the area from the other structures. QUESTION: The executive committee of what? ANSWER: The ANC executive. JUDGE WILSON: Who were the two warring factions? ANSWER: It was the Youth League together with the vigilantes. QUESTION: Do you know when the deceased was killed? ANSWER: It was late in December 1990. QUESTION: When was it when these talks were held, was it before his death or after his death? ANSWER: It was just before and they continued even after that. QUESTION: Were initial attempts successful? ANSWER: No. QUESTION: That is why obviously they continued? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Was the deceased ever involved in these peace talks because you say that they started just before his 1b. death /... 79 D NDZEKU death? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Was he present at any of these peace talks? ANSWER: No he wasn't. QUESTION: From what you are saying I assume that, and please tell me if I'm wrong, that there were representatives from the vigilante group? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Under which he fell? ANSWER: Yes. JUDGE WILSON: The deceased David was a young thug of 18 wasn't he? ANSWER: He was? QUESTION: 18 when he died? ANSWER: I'm not sure about his age. QUESTION: About that, he was a youngster. ANSWER: He was a youngster yes. QUESTION: One matter I'd like to clear up with you is the evidence that Mr Johnson Ngcube has given that he went and got the gun from the ANC executive committee. You say that never happened? ANSWER: Not in my presence. QUESTION: You see, he went on to say "...the gun was given to me by the whole executive committee because we had discussed the issue of guns before". Are you aware of that? ANSWER: I was not aware of that. QUESTION: He told us that he got the gun from the Gauteng branch of the ANC of which you were the chairman. You say you had no guns in your committee? 1b. ANSWER: /... 80 D NDZEKU ANSWER: And I was not even the chairman. QUESTION: But you had no guns your committee? ANSWER: No. QUESTION: So that is untrue. A final factor I'd like to mention to you which may have contributed to the peace that came, was that the ANC itself on August 6 formally committed itself to the cessation of armed hostilities didn't it? ANSWER: Which year is that? QUESTION: 1990. ANSWER: I am not aware of that exact date. QUESTION: Well I am quoting from the submissions made by the African National Congress to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, paragraph 6293 where they say "On August 6 1990 the ANC formally committed itself to a cessation of armed hostilities." ANSWER: Where in the country or in Kusong? QUESTION: In the country, the dealing with the problems they then had with vigilantism and the ANC was firmly committed to try to bring about peace in the land, wasn't it? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: How many of your youth joined this, or defected from the ANC youth and started terrorising the community? ANSWER: It was in fact a very, very small group of not more than 20. QUESTION: This was in 1989? ANSWER: Yes, late 89. QUESTION: Had there been trouble in that area before? ANSWER: I beg your pardon? QUESTION: Had there been trouble in the area before, 1b. violence /... 81 D NDZEKU violence, or was this the beginning of it? ANSWER: That was the beginning. QUESTION: Because again we have had evidence from Ngcube that he left home in 1988, now that must have been some personal reason for him would it, there wasn't general trouble in the area in that year? ANSWER: There could have been a personal problem of his. QUESTION: Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY JUDGE WILSON QUESTION: That could have been a personal problem with the security police? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Were they not active at that time, the security police in the area, the security police of the South African Police? ANSWER: No they were. ADVOCATE DE JAGER: In all fairness it could have been a problem with another inhabitant of the township too, a private trouble he had with one of his colleagues at school or whatever it may, you don't know anything about it? ANSWER: No I don't know personally what the actual problem was. QUESTION: This vigilante group in the end, how would you say at their peak, how many members did they consist of or can't you tell us? ANSWER: At a guess there should have been about 50 or so. QUESTION: About 50 of so. ANSWER: Hmm. QUESTION: You told us at the beginning they were formed by businessmen? ANSWER: Yes. 1b. QUESTION: /... 82 D NDZEKU QUESTION: Businessmen across the political spectrum? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: To protect their property against thugs and gangsters and robbery? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: At that stage I presume they in fact worked together with the police, the vigilantes? ANSWER: No not exactly. QUESTION: But if they wanted to protect, they were an open group formed in order to protect against crime I would presume they would have acted in collusion with the police? ANSWER: That was not what happened, you see because there were perceptions that the police were doing nothing to curb the crimes committed against the community. QUESTION: I see, so they formed a separate committee or group in order to protect the public from the gangsters or the thieves or the criminals in the area? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: When were they infiltrated or taken over by the break-away group? Is it correct that in the beginning they fought against the break-away group? ANSWER: I'm not sure exactly when but the suspicion came when they were seen in the company of the police, I'm not sure at exactly what period. QUESTION: Could you say round about, you say the vigilantes were formed at the beginning of 1990? ANSWER: Hmm it was say the second half of 1990. QUESTION: During the second half of 1990. Do you know who was the leader of the vigilantes or didn't they have a leader? ANSWER: I'm not sure who their leader was but I only know 1b. of /... 83 D NDZEKU of the few individuals who were appearing to be prominent figures of the group. QUESTION: Could you name a few of them? ANSWER: It was, I'm not sure whether it's John or James Maseko and a David Majeko and just forgetting the names of them now. QUESTION: Were any of them killed during the period? ANSWER: Killed? QUESTION: Ja. ANSWER: Not as far as I know. QUESTION: Were any vigilantes killed during the period except for David? ANSWER: No I only know of David. QUESTION: This gang you said also committed rapes, rape on women? ANSWER: Yes there were such allegations. QUESTION: Did they target a specific group of woman or did they generally rape any member of the community? ANSWER: The allegations then were that their target was the female activists in the township. QUESTION: Do you know whether there were any other people reaped who were not members of the ANC Women's League and belonging to other political parties, by the vigilantes - I'm not talking about other criminals? ANSWER: I'm not aware of that. QUESTION: I see. One last question who represented the vigilantes on the peace committee that was formed during early December or round about the end of 1990? ANSWER: It was two Mgundla(?) brothers, Thomas and Toko, Thomas and Tati I'm sorry. QUESTION: Thomas and? 1b. ANSWER: /... 84 D NDZEKU ANSWER: Tati. QUESTION: Mgundla, do you know them, are they still around? ANSWER: They are still around. QUESTION: Sorry? ANSWER: They are still around. QUESTION: Do you know where they live? ANSWER: Yes I do. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE DE JAGER QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE QUESTION: Mr Ndzeku who initiated the notion of collecting donations for the purposes of buying firearms? ANSWER: I don't have information on that. QUESTION: Was it the executive committee of the ANC or was it the Youth League? ANSWER: It could have been the executive of the Youth League but I'm not sure exactly who. QUESTION: Do you know when these arms were purchased? ANSWER: No. QUESTION: Was the executive committee ever involved in the question of storing ammunition for the Youth League? ANSWER: Which executive? QUESTION: The local branch executive of the ANC? ANSWER: No. QUESTION: To your knowledge was the executive committee of the Youth League involved in such storage of ammunition for the SDU members? ANSWER: I don't have information on that. QUESTION: The SDU members were they linked to the Youth League or were they linked to any particular structure of the Civic Association or the local branch of the African 1b. National /... 85 D NDZEKU National Congress? ANSWER: They were closely linked to both the Civic Association and the Youth League. QUESTION: So the executive committee of the ANC did not have very close links with the Youth League, it didn't know exactly what they were doing most of the time, particularly when it comes to the issue of ammunition? ANSWER: Possibly I have to clarify it a little bit, that most of the information might have been kept away from the executive committee, under the notion that persisted then that the executive committee was a sort of "soft" on the vigilantes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE NO RE-EXAMINATION WITNESS IS EXCUSED 1b. MR MPSHE:/... 86 P LEBONA MR MPSHE: Chairperson the applicant before the committee is Peter Lebona. Chairperson, Peter Lebona will be giving his evidence in Sesotho, he will not have a problem with Tswana as well, can he be sworn in please? CHAIRMAN: ....we have been dealing with up to now, is that right? ...what we have been hearing up to now in order to ascertain whether you have any witnesses to call in that regard? MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, as I had indicated yesterday by means of the copy of the report from the investigative unit, which reports were tabled before your good selves, there are no witnesses that I intend calling as per reports tabled. The reports were tabled yesterday afternoon just shortly before the adjournment. ADVOCATE DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe, the deceased David Majeko, did he have any family, a father, a mother, he's been at school here would nobody know about his family or his next-of-kin? MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman if I recall the contents of the report from the investigative unit, it is to the effect - and I'm not quoting verbatim - that the people during this harassment and maiming and killing, moved out of the area because that was an informal settlement and they cannot be traced. They even enlisted the services of Mr Nzdeku who is now the mayor in that area but he was also unsuccessful in tracing the next-of-kin to the deceased. Those are the contents of the report. ADV DE JAGER: (microphone not on)...representatives are here so if perhaps there is anybody in the hall here that could throw some light, they could get in touch with Professor Meiring or Dr Mgwaso next to him in order to give 2. information /... 87 information about any victims that there may be. JUDGE WILSON: We have heard that his grandmother I think it was, was living very close to 658, wasn't that the... ATTORNEY: Yes Mr Chairperson that was the evidence but as the Chair will well know, it is a investigative unit was given an instruction to go and trace these people, and I depend on their reports. JUDGE WILSON: They seem to have passed the buck to somebody else, they've not gone to the place and walked up and down the street asking people if they were still living there. ATTORNEY: It did seem the impression that I get is that they went to the police station, perused their police docket and made some enquiries and even got in touch with the then witness Mr Ndzeku who is the mayor there who also tried to assist them in tracing the next of kin but unfortunately that was unsuccessful as well. That is the distance that they travelled. JUDGE WILSON: Has your request been put to the audience Mr De Jager, that is if there is anybody here who knows? ATTORNEY: Sorry Mr Chairman can I do this via Mr Ndzeku who is the mayor of the area, I will consult with him and make him make this known because the audience here is not the audience from that area, this is the local audience. He is the best person who can convey this to the people in that area. I am not divulging from my (indistinct) but I thought it would be most apposite to deal with it because he is the mayor in that area, if that is permitted. CHAIRMAN: Mr Mpshe I'm not going to ask you to address at this stage because it is possible that there may be other witnesses that the Committee might want to hear subject to 2. what /... 88 P LEBONA what you have to say on this point, and that is there has been a great deal of evidence of police harassment and police collusion with groups operating in townships. Do you have any facts before you that would negative that kind of evidence? MR MPSHE: No. CHAIRMAN: Do you have any attitude on the matter as to what weight has to be attached to this kind of allegation about police working in collusion with illegal elements and gangsters and so on? MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman I do not have specific attitude pertaining to this type of a matter, that is these matters, but the attitude that I may be having will be of a general nature which I do not think will be of any assistance to this Committee as to what happens generally outside. JUDGE WILSON: Have the police been notified that such allegations are expected, have they been asked to comment or given the opportunity to comment? ATTORNEY: Mr Chairman the report that I tabled yesterday from the investigative unit, one of the paragraphs states that because of the absence of the case docket, they could not formulate as to the attitude of the police towards the activists, and as such they could not make out what actually was happening in that area, save that there was a fight or a skirmish between the vigilante and the activists. That is how far the investigative unit could report. CHAIRMAN: The Committee will take a short adjournment at this stage to consider one or two aspects. COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION CHAIRMAN: ...formed that relatives of the deceased in this matter may be or can be traced and made available. 2. ATTORNEY: /... 89 P LEBONA ATTORNEY: Mr Chairman I just want to place this on record that as a result of information received during the short adjournment, the next of kin to David Majeko, the next of kin being the mother as well as the sister, these are available and can be caused to attend the hearing. They are presently in Kusong township. Mr Chairman I have caused, or I have enlisted the services of the SAPS to go and fetch the mother as well as the sister and as I am talking now they have left for the same. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Obviously you are not in a position to give us any indication as to when we can resume with this particular case? ATTORNEY: Mr Chairman correctly so, I am not in a position to state that and that furthermore I have caused a letter to be written which is about to be despatched to the Kusong and/or Carltonville police station calling upon the policemen whose names were mentioned in evidence also to be present. As such Mr Chairman we are not in a position to close this matter at this time. CHAIRMAN: The Committee has had a preliminary discussion in this regard and it has been suggested and agreed by members of the Committee that in all future applications where you know beforehand that allegations of police involvement are going to be made by witnesses, that due notice is given to the relevant police authorities that this is what is likely to be said and that they are afforded an opportunity to be present at the hearing or make representations in whichever way they like, so that things may run a little more smoothly in future. In future it should be said to General Fivaz himself and let him attend to deciding who should represent him at these hearings. As 2. far /... 90 P LEBONA far as the present application is concerned, we will defer further discussion until we're in a position to know whether witnesses are available and maybe at the end of the day or perhaps at the beginning of the next hearing tomorrow morning, we may be able to decide whether we should postpone altogether a further consideration of this application to enable the police to make adequate representation or arrive at some other decision. ...to the policemen's names who have been mentioned may not serve the desired purpose, they may very well want a transcript of the evidence to know what is being said about them and then take legal advice on it before they decide to appear. It seems that the proper thing to do would be, apart from serving notice on them or notifying them, the proper thing to do would be to send the letter to the police Commissioner, the General Commissioner and leave it in his hands. That having been said, we will now hold in abeyance the hearing of further evidence in the present applications and may we now proceed with the next application if we are ready to do so? Before doing so, I think I should announce that we are happy to have with us Professor Meiring and Professor Mgwasa of the Rehabilitation and Reparation's Committee who are sitting here and who have been with us since this morning. At some stage where you Mr Mpshe become aware of the fact that there might be individuals giving evidence who might require the attention of the Rehabilitation and Reparation's Committee, that they should be told that the representatives of the Committee are here and can be contacted through you. MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman that will be done. Mr Chairman the next witness that are to come in the application of Lebona, Lekitlana and Bosakwe, Mr Chairman I 2. want /... MR MPSHE 91 ADDRESS want to mention from the onset that the next of kin in these applications, the deceased is the same, Nglameni, and the father to the deceased is available, Mr Charles Nglameni. I have tried this morning before we could start to get Mr Charles Nglameni available through the services of Captain Odendaal of the Orkney, of the Ganana police station. Captain Odendaal has gone to Mr Charles Nglameni to fetch him but they reported that he relayed back to me via Captain Willem of this place is Mr Charles Nglameni is not at his house right now but they are going to look for him and when they find him he will be brought. What I am trying to say is that the next of kin also in the three applications is presently not in here but he will be available today. Thank you. CHAIRMAN: Very well we will now with their application and that is Messrs Lebona, Solomon and Busakwe. MR MPSHE: Chairperson, the applicant before the Committee will give his evidence in Sesotho and Setswana. Can he be sworn in please? PETER LEBONA (ss) EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY QUESTION: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Lebona according to your application before this Committee you were a member of the African National Congress in the period of 1991, is that correct? ANSWER: That's correct. QUESTION: The capacity in which you served was the one of the ANC marshall? ANSWER: That's correct I was a marshall for the ANC. QUESTION: Before we proceed any further, can you briefly explain to the Committee what were your functions or what 2. were /... 91 P LEBONA were the functions of the ANC marshals? ANSWER: We were the ANC marshals, we were the African National Congress marshals and it so happened that during our time for struggle... QUESTION: Sorry to interrupt, as an ANC marshall what were your duties, what were you doing as an ANC marshall? Why were you an ANC marshall? ANSWER: Duties assigned to us as ANC marshals we were supposed to bring order during our mass meetings. There was gun that I used to carry every time when we had meetings, but after the meeting I would take it back to Comrade Papi(?). QUESTION: Your duties as an ANC marshall you are saying were mainly to restore order in meetings? ANSWER: That's correct. QUESTION: Now the application before this Committee reflects that you are asking for amnesty for the act of murder committed on 21 July, 1991 at Ganana township. Who did you kill on 21 July, 1991? ANSWER: I murdered Zenzile Joseph Lamini, that was on 21 July, 1991. QUESTION: This Zenzile Lamini you murdered, who was he, how did you know him? ANSWER: The Zenzile we killed I knew him as our own comrade, he was at first a member of the ANC and it so happened that Zenzile resigned from the ANC and he joined his own gangster that was called Kofifi, the gangster was called Kofifi. QUESTION: Why did you kill Zenzile, why did you kill this Mr Lamini? ANSWER: On 21 July there was a mass meeting in the 2. township /... 92 P LEBONA township that is Ganana. At that time I had a firearm with me together with other comrades and as we were in the proceedings of the mass meetings we were discussing about the crime that was present in the township and as we were discussing a few comrades arrived and they told us of the problems that Zenzile have done. They were reporting this to the comrades at a mass meetings and the marshals were chosen out of the mass meeting to go and fetch him. That was on the day when we had our meeting. I was among the group who went to fetch Zenzile. We went to his place in his shack where he was staying, and when we came back with him he confessed that he was, to Mrs (indistinct) house on the 20th and he demanded money and when this woman told him that she didn't have money, he took the decision to rape Mrs (indistinct) together with his friends, his gangster friends. They fastened Mrs (indistinct) husband and they raped her, then Zenzile after finishing this act, took a stone and threw it to this woman and he confessed with his own mouth that those were the acts committed by him. MEMBER OF COMMITTEE: Mr Lebona, sorry I don't understand this piece of evidence. Mr Lebona I'm trying to clarify each person. The question posed to you is, why did you kill this Mr Nglamini, or let me phrase this question in this fashion for you to understand. ...not my problem, what I don't understand is the evidence that thereafter he threw a stone at the woman, I don't understand what that means. I don't understand what is meant by saying thereafter he threw a stone at her or at him. QUESTION: Mr Lebona to clarify members of this Committee this act you are referring to of Zenzile with this woman and the stone, where did it happen and how did it happen, can 2. you /... 93 P LEBONA you clarify on that? You are talking about a stone, the Committee wants to understand where does that come from? ANSWER: This incident took place at Mrs (indistinct), that was on 20 July. Zenzile with his gangster went into this woman's house and they demanded money, cash, and this woman said to them I don't have money and they took her husband and they fastened him and they raped the woman and after raping her, Zenzile took a very big stone and he crushed this woman on the head with this stone and this woman was lying down and he left with his gangster. We only came to know about this matter on the 21st. QUESTION: ...he decided to crush this woman you are talking about with a stone, do you know the reasons thereof? ANSWER: Yes I know the reasons, this woman was the member of the ANC Women's League, he knew, he knew here very well, and Zenzile was really intending to kill the activists of the ANC that is why he chose to do that act. QUESTION: Are there any other acts that you can enlighten the Committee about that? ANSWER: There are acts sir, but they happened before. There are three women who went to Zenzile during the time of his comradeship, that is before he was revealed as a member of this gangster. These women wanted him to give them this things, and Zenzile took these three women and they slept with them the whole night. The next morning the three women came back to the comrades to report what happened to them. The comrades said to them go to the police station because this is a criminal act you have to open a charge. When these women went to the police station it so happened that Zenzile was not arrested at all. Comrade Bosakwe and other comrades took Zenzile personally to the police station 2. for /... 94 P LEBONA for this act of raping three women. He was supposed to take the names of other friends who were with him when they raped these three women. On the same night of raping the three women he was present in the township and this indicated to us that there was a connection between this group and the policemen. QUESTION: You talked of the mass meeting that called Zenzile, what meeting was that, who called that meeting, who attended that meeting? ANSWER: It was not on the same day where he raped the three women, it was a day on which he crushed Mrs Matelo's head with a stone and we were discussing the crime that was present in our township and on that same day while we were still at the mass meeting, that problem arrived and we sent marshals to fetch Zenzile. QUESTION: Kindly listen to the question that is posed and answer the question as it is asked please. I'm referring to 21 July, you talked of a mass meeting. The question is who called that mass meeting? ANSWER: On the 21st the mass meeting was called by the executive committee members of the ANC Youth League, that was comrade Papi, he was one of them, and Bosakwe. QUESTION: Who attended that mass meeting? ANSWER: All the comrades were present and the members of the community, they were all present at the mass meeting. QUESTION: What was the subject of this meeting? ANSWER: The subject was the crime that was sweeping the Ganana township, raping, robbery, people were taking the community money and calling themselves comrades. QUESTION: How did then this Zenzile Glamini feature? ANSWER: ...Zenzile Glamini injured another woman and then 2b he /... 95 P LEBONA he fastened the husband with rope and an order was taken out that Zenzile Glamini should be fetched and brought to the meeting so that he can explain his act. QUESTION: Was Zenzile then brought to the meeting, if so who brought him to the meeting? ANSWER: I was among the comrades who went to fetch him, he was brought back to the mass meeting. QUESTION: ...the purpose of you calling Zenzile into the meeting? ANSWER: The reason was that we'd been discussing this crime and Zenzile was implicated because he went to Mrs (indistinct) house to demand money and he raped her and then he crushed her with a stone. An instruction was taken out that he should come before the meeting to give reasons as to why he did those acts. QUESTION: ...to the meeting and then what happened? (Microphone not working for initial part of questions). ANSWER: He was brought to the meeting and after explaining, after confessing that he personally did that, he asked for forgiveness as to, he told us that he was drunk he didn't know what he was doing and he was asked why did he target the ANC Women's League and there was then a decision that Zenzile should be taken to the police station by the comrades, he shouldn't go to the police station on his own. The woman was already in the hospital and I was among the members who were taking Zenzile to the police station. As we were walking along with him... QUESTION: ...being among the group that was mandated to take Zenzile to the police station, you took him and then what happened? ANSWER: I was a marshall ordered to take him to the police 2b station /... 96 P LEBONA station and on our way to the police station, people were following us, the people who were at the mass meeting, we wanted the transport to take him to the police station and as the people were following us Zenzile pulled out his gun and I pulled out mine also and I just shot him instantly. QUESTION: When you took Zenzile to the meeting were you aware that he was armed? ANSWER: We knew that he had a gun but on that day we didn't realise that he had a gun on himself because we didn't search him, we didn't want the conditions or the situation to be bad, we just talked to him in a very polite manner and he was walking to the meeting together with us. QUESTION: Was he aware at the time that you were armed? ANSWER: He knew that some of the comrades were armed, but he didn't know who among the comrades had guns. QUESTION: You talk of you having been in possession of a gun, where did you find this gun? ANSWER: This was from the donations from the community after Zenzile's group attacked the community. Comrade Papi was given the money to buy the guns, they were all being stored at his place. He gave me the gun on the day of the mass meeting. QUESTION: So if you got the gun from comrade Papi who is this comrade Papi? ANSWER: He is my co-accused Elias Bozakwe. QUESTION: You shot Nglameni, how did you shoot Nglameni? ANSWER: I pulled out my gun, that was, I shot him, I shot him same time, I had a 9mm gun with me. QUESTION: According to the application before the Committee, Nglameni was shot, stoned and beaten with a hard iron-like object. Who stoned, who beat Nglameni? 2b ANSWER: /... 96 P LEBONA ANSWER: Many people were stoning him, comrade Rich had, I saw him perfectly well he took this iron, iron bar and he hit him on the head. QUESTION: The deceased Nglameni being a member of the vigilante group, but the Committee would like to know more about that vigilante group. What was it doing? How was it related to you as ANC marshals? ANSWER: This was just a group of gangsters with a intention to harass the ANC activists, they were raping, collecting money in the name of the ANC from the community. They were assaulting people, that was their function. QUESTION: ....to you as the ANC marshall that makes you think that they were targeting you? ANSWER: There was no action that they have done to me before, but other comrades were really attacked in the township. QUESTION: Did this group disrupt any meeting called by the civics or the ANC, did they disrupt any political activity of the ANC or the civic association? ANSWER: Many a times when we held our meetings they would come and disturb us and they would shoot, they would throw stones. QUESTION: You mentioned in your evidence that then you came to know from a member of Zenzile's group that he was working in collusion with the police. The Committee would like to know, or let me ask who, from who, who is this person who gave you or who defected from Zenzile and gave you the information that he was in collusion with the police? ANSWER: The person who gave us the information was Oupa, he was a member of Zenzile's group. He came to us and he 2b said /... 97 P LEBONA said we should know that there is a money that we get from, that they get from the police, some of them have guns and they have been getting those guns by the police and he said to us we should be alert at all times, these people can attack us at any time. QUESTION: Could you give the names of some of these police persons? ANSWER: The name that he mentioned was Lope(?), there's a policeman called Lope, I do not know his surname but he never mentioned the others. QUESTION: This Lope is he a policeman in Ganana or is he a policeman in Orkney, where is he stationed or where was he stationed at the time? ANSWER: He was a policeman in Orkney. QUESTION: A black policeman or a white policeman? ANSWER: He is a white policeman. QUESTION: You mentioned that this group of Zenzile were troublesome. You as ANC marshals now, what did you hope actually to achieve in this struggle between yourselves and this group? ANSWER: As the marshals of the ANC we wanted peace between ourselves and this vigilante group, but things were not that way because always when they appeared they were attacking, they were just in the spirit of war. QUESTION: You are saying in your application that the political objective that you wanted to achieve was free political activity. Would you say that the Zenzile group was hampering this activity? ANSWER: Yes they were hampering us, we wouldn't have any free political activity because every time they heard that there was going to be a mass meeting they would attack. 2b While /... 98 P LEBONA While we were in our rallies they were always attacking. QUESTION: Let's go back to the 21 now when you killed Zenzile. The Committee would like to know the actual reason of your killing him. You talked of him producing a gun and running into a house, why... JUDGE WILSON: He made no mention of him running into a house. QUESTION: Why did you shoot him, why did you produce a gun and shoot him? ANSWER: When he pulled out his gun I said if he was going to shoot he was going to kill many people, so I decided to shoot first before he could injure my comrades. QUESTION: So are you saying that had he not produced the gun then you wouldn't have shot him? ANSWER: No I would have never shot at him, I would have gone straight to the police station. QUESTION: In your statement you in an attempt to highlight what Zenzile group was doing to the community, you mentioned an instance where a certain comrade Madewu. ANSWER: Yes I know comrade Madewu. QUESTION: What did this group do to Madewu? ANSWER: This group met comrade Madewu at comrade (indistinct) house and they demanded money and when he said to them he doesn't have money they poured paraffin on him and they burned his head. QUESTION: As far as I am concerned it was a criminal act, was he ever arrested for this, do you know if he was arrested and charged for having done so? ANSWER: No he was never arrested and the comrades took him to the police station, that was after he burned comrade Madewu but there was no case at all. We saw him back in 2b the /... 99 P LEBONA the township again. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ATTORNEY CHAIRMAN: How many times did you shoot this man? ANSWER: I shot just one bullet. QUESTION: You described that others in the crowd that were following him also assaulted him, did that assault take place before you shot him or after you shot him? ANSWER: They assaulted him after I shot him because I shot him he was powerless he didn't have any balance at all, he didn't know what to do and his gun fell and stones were threw at him. QUESTION: What happened to him after that assault? ANSWER: Comrade Lekitlana poured petrol on him, he wanted to burn him and comrade Bosakwe said please do not burn him he is already dead. QUESTION: So what happened? ANSWER: We waited until the police came to take his corpse. QUESTION: When you say you waited, you mean you waited at the scene where he had died? ANSWER: No we moved away but we went to my yard where I was staying. QUESTION: Mr Mpshe? QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE QUESTION: Thank you Mr Chairman, where on the body did you shoot the deceased? ANSWER: Just close to the chest, just here on the chest. QUESTION: Was this Mawitatelo an ANC member? ANSWER: Yes she was the member of the ANC's Women's League. QUESTION: Did she hold any position within the Women's 2b League /... MR MPSHE 100 P LEBONA League? ANSWER: She didn't have any position. QUESTION: Am I correct to state that as an ANC marshall or SA marshall you are not given any mission to carry out save for maintenance of order at meetings? ANSWER: Can you please repeat your question sir? QUESTION: In other words except for maintaining order at mass meetings, you are not to carry out any mission outside a mass meeting or meeting set out? ANSWER: I wasn't supposed to do anything besides acting in the mass meeting but I had the gun with me to protect the community that I was with as we were taking him to the police station. QUESTION: So when you were taking him to the police station, you foresaw the possibility of him fighting, as you say you had the gun with you. ANSWER: No we thought that as we were walking looking for transport, his members would approach us and that is why we were armed because we knew them as fighters. QUESTION: How many of you comrades had guns on that day? ANSWER: Among the group the three of us had guns. QUESTION: Could you mention names please? ANSWER: Mzakwe, Mosita Majakena and myself Peter Lebona. QUESTION: ...submitted an application form applying for amnesty, which application form has been used also by your counsel? ANSWER: I remember. QUESTION: Did you complete this application form yourself? ANSWER: We filled this form when I arrived in prison and I wrote everything that happened on that day and then we applied from the National Party Government. 2b QUESTION: /... MR MPSHE 101 P LEBONA QUESTION: Did you yourself, in your own handwriting, fill in or fill up the application form? ANSWER: That was not my handwriting, it is another comrade from Schweizer Reneke we were together in the cells in prison. QUESTION: Where from did he get what he wrote onto your application form? ANSWER: He took everything from us, he took this from me. QUESTION: I'm going to show you page 5 of your application form, it is highlighted, it will be page 5 of the paginated, page 5 paginated. The highlighted portion look at it and tell me if that is what you said? Mr Chairman it will be page 5 of the original application form and page 4 for the pagination. I am going to read this out to you, it's after a question under question 11(b), I will read the question and your answer "QUESTION: If so, state particulars of such order or approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of the person or persons who gave such order or approval? ANSWER: After a proper analysis of the situation we, as the executive branch of the ANC, took a decision to go and search Zenzile wherever. He was apprehended him and hand him over to the police." Do you remember that? ANSWER: I remember. QUESTION: Was he taken to the police? ANSWER: Yes he was taken to the police but not on the same 2b day /... MR MPSHE 102 P LEBONA day of the 21st. On the 21st we didn't reach the police station, we were on our way to the police on the 21st but we couldn't reach our destination. QUESTION: Which day is this wherein you say he was handed over to the police? ANSWER: That was on the day he burned comrade Madewu using a paraffin, he was together with his members of the gangster and that was again on the day where he raped three women, he was taken to the police station. QUESTION: Taken on a different date by executive of the ANC? ANSWER: This decision was taken by the executive, that was on a separate date because these women were sent to the police station and then we saw Zenzile in the township and the executive said we should take him to the police station so that it can be clear as to what is going to happen with him. QUESTION: You testified further that in response to a question by your counsel and you said "We hoped to achieve peace between us and them." The them here being the kofifi, do you remember that? ANSWER: I remember. QUESTION: Will I then be correct to state that the hostility that existed, existed only between yourself and the kofifi only? ANSWER: The hostility was there especially when we had our mass meetings, they would come and fight us, they were against the activities of the ANC. QUESTION: ...you should not harm comrades, do you recall that? ANSWER: I remember. 2b QUESTION: /... MR MPSHE 103 P LEBONA QUESTION: Will I then be correct to state that actually you shot in order to defend comrades present on the scene then, that was the purpose? ANSWER: That was the purpose of shooting him because I thought to myself when he shoots first, many comrades and members of the ANC are going to be injured and harmed. QUESTION: Was your shooting aimed at achieving any other thing other than defending your fellow comrades? ANSWER: I was shooting him to defend but after shooting him I would have taken him to the police station, I didn't expect what happened thereafter. QUESTION: Did you understand my question? ANSWER: Can you repeat it? QUESTION: In the shooting were you shooting to achieve any other thing other than protecting your fellow comrades? ANSWER: I was shooting to protect the comrades, that's all. CHAIRMAN: Sorry Mr Mpshe in the framing of your question I think you qualified in a drastic fashion. The initial question was in shooting were you defending comrades present at the scene, only those present at the scene. ANSWER: I was protecting the comrades that were present at the scene because all the people that were there were comrades. QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE (contd) QUESTION: ...statement in your application, Mr Chairman this is on the paginated papers, this is page 7, page 8 and page 9. I'm going to show you these papers and indicate whether you are aware of the statement. Mr Chairman it may have been attached as Annexure to the application itself. CHAIRMAN: It goes up to page 10 amongst my papers. 2b QUESTIONS /... MR MPSHE 104 P LEBONA QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE (contd) QUESTION: Do you remember that statement? ANSWER: Yes. CHAIRMAN: I think you should find out if he can read that because it is not in his handwriting. QUESTION: Did you write that one as well, were you assisted in writing that one? ANSWER: I can read and understand this, this was written by comrade Strike. QUESTION: If you can read and understand then you recognise everything that is thereon, am I correct? ANSWER: This is the truth that is written here because I was telling him what was happening in the township. CHAIRMAN: How do you spell the name of this witness, the person who has written this down, what is the name? ANSWER: The member's name is Strike Mr Chairman. 2b QUESTIONS /... 105 P LEBONA QUESTION: I am going to read what is on page 7 Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, certain portions thereof of page 7. The first paragraph on page 7 reads as follows "Post February 1990 era marked a significant hallmark in the history of our national democratic revolution. It was during this period that we experienced the infiltration of the security system of the National Party regime into the mass base liberation force (that is the ANC and others). Orkney branch of the ANC was no exception to those conditions of the time." I want you to explain to this Committee what do you mean when you say "Orkney branch of the ANC was no exception to these conditions of the time"? ANSWER: What should I explain sir? MEMBER OF COMMITTEE: Sorry to interrupt you but before repeating your question could the camera people kindly do something about that light, I can't stand it anymore it's right in my eyes? QUESTION: To assist you Mr Lebona I do not want to be seen to be interpreting what you are saying but just to give a guide as to why I am asking this question. You stated that there was an infiltration of the security system of the National Party and then you say further down that your branch was no exception. Do you understand that? ANSWER: I understand. QUESTION: Why do you say, or what makes you say that the ANC branch of Orkney was no exception to the infiltration of the National Party? ANSWER: There was a day in 1990 in February, there was a rumour that Inkanana(?), Inkatha was present and the police 3. took /... 105 P LEBONA took three of our comrades and they said they were going to show them where Inkatha was. They were not aware as to what was going to happen with them and when they were at the river they were shown the water in the river and they were told this is Inkatha and they were shot. Luckily they didn't die. This happened at the riverside and they all fell into the river, they are still alive today, they survived the ordeal of that day. QUESTION: Was there any National Party security system infiltration into your branch? ANSWER: Yes that's correct. QUESTION: Why do you say yes, what happened? ANSWER: It so happened that police arrived, people heard the rumour that Inkatha was present and people were moving away and the white policemen, they took three of our marshals and they said we are going to show you where Inkatha was and three of them were taken to the river to the Vaal River and they were shot and they fell into the river. Luckily they didn't die, they are still alive to this day. I can't remember their names but they are still alive. QUESTION: ...Mr Chairman, members of the Committee. You stated "After having officially launched the Orkney branch of the ANC and the establishment of the civic organisation in a township called Kanana, our activities were fraught with difficulties. One of those difficulties we experienced was the State-sponsored offensive against our people." ANSWER: That's correct. QUESTION: Why do you mention State-sponsored offensive against you, what was happening, what had happened? 3. ANSWER: /... 106 P LEBONA ANSWER: That they were State-sponsored we had already received information from Oupa who was the member of, this gangster, that they were giving money and guns to fight the activities of the ANC. QUESTION: So you stated this in a statement on the basis of hearsay? ANSWER: I heard this from comrade Oupa Mavele who was a member of (indistinct) gang and what gave me evidence that this was true it was after we have seen the attacks in the company of the police because everytime they attacked they would be taken with police vans and then they will be left... QUESTION: Paragraph 2 thereof part of which I will quote. On page 9 of your statement you said the following "We failed in our efforts to deal with this group as it had become a nuisance(?) and we delegated the members of the ANC to the national office of the ANC. They were referred back to the regional office by comrade Steve Tswete, (who is now the Minister for Sports & Recreation)." Do you remember that? ANSWER: I remember that. QUESTION: What is it that the delegation was to discuss with comrade Steve Tswete? ANSWER: We didn't have freedom in our struggle as members of the ANC and we deemed it fit to delegate some comrades to take our cry for what to the national office and when they came back they said comrade Tswete referred them back to the original office. The regional office said the branch should solve such problems. QUESTION: Was the discussions with the comrade Steve 3. Tswete /... 107 P LEBONA Tswete about the Kofifi(?) gang activities? ANSWER: It was with regard to Kofifi gang. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS QUESTIONS BY JUDGE WILSON I have read the statement attached to your application and it seems very similar to the statements attached to the applications of Solomon Lekitlana and Boisele Bosakwe. Did you all write them together? ANSWER: We were not together, I was in prison at Klerksdorp in a different section and Bosakwe and Lekitlana were in section 2. QUESTION: You had no discussion with them? ANSWER: They just asked me what did I write in my statement and I told them that I've written down the situation that prevailed then. QUESTION: Yes, and did you show them your statement? ANSWER: Not, I didn't show them my statement. QUESTION: Are you sure? ANSWER: I am sure. QUESTION: You realise you have to tell us the truth? ANSWER: I realise that I have to speak the truth that is why I am here before this Committee. QUESTION: You see, your statement, the statement annexed to your application starts "Post February 1990 era marked a significant hallmark in the history of our national democratic revolution". Is that what you said? ANSWER: That's correct. QUESTION: His statement starts "Post February 1990 era marked a significant hallmark in the history of our democratic revolution". Are you saying that quite by chance he had the identical opening sentence? 3. ANSWER: /... 108 P LEBONA ANSWER: I don't know what, why are they identical but he told me that he gave the situation that prevailed then, he had to give the truth. QUESTION: See the other man, Bosakwe, Elias Bosakwe, his statement starts with exactly the same wording "Post February 1990 era marked a significant hallmark in the history of our democratic revolution". So you now say quite by chance three of you picked on the same sentence? ANSWER: What we said was prevailing then. QUESTION: Yes, and paragraph by paragraph is the same. I think your advocate will agree that the three statements are identical? ADVOCATE: Chairperson I confirm that I read the statements and they are identical. CHAIRMAN: They have the same handwriting do they? JUDGE WILSON: Somebody has copied them out. CHAIRMAN: Are they? ADVOCATE: Chairperson they are not of the same handwriting except that the contents thereof are identical. JUDGE WILSON: You can give no explanation for that, you ask us to believe that by some coincidence beyond all belief the three of you asked someone to write for you identical statements, four pages long each, can you give any explanation? ANSWER: I think what is written in that statement is exactly what was said by each one of us, those are the activities that were taking place in the township. JUDGE WILSON: Speaking for myself, I do not believe that three people relating what had happened in the past would use identical wording for a four page statement and I am giving you a last chance to explain how it could have 3. happened? /... 109 P LEBONA happened? ANSWER: Sorry what chance sir? JUDGE WILSON: You don't want to give any explanation, you don't want to tell us how it is that you came to make these identical statements? ANSWER: Maybe Lekitlana, they will tell how it came about to give such statement, but this is what I wrote down. JUDGE WILSON: Yes that could quite easily happen, they were given yours and copied yours, that I'm quite prepared to accept. ANSWER: They will come before the Committee to tell them where did they get those statements, that is if they are prepared to tell the truth. JUDGE WILSON: Yours would have been the first one and what I want you to explain to me is why in that statement it says, after dealing with the raping of the woman and tying up of the husband, it says "The people went and apprehended Zenzile who was subsequently taken to the mass meeting." ANSWER: That's correct. JUDGE WILSON: "It was at that meeting that we learned that member of ANC WL had died." Is that correct? ANSWER: Members of ANC WL sir? JUDGE WILSON: ...had died at the meeting. In your statement you... ANSWER: When we were at the meeting when a report was taken out, other people believed that Mrs (indistinct) died because she was injured but truly she wasn't dead, she is still alive even today. 3. JUDGE /... 110 P LEBONA JUDGE WILSON: I'm reading from your statement that you have said was correct. You then go on to say "Anger amongst our people was at its highest state and when the leadership tried to rationalise the crowd to take Zenzile to the police station, they were defied." Do you remember saying that? ANSWER: Yes I remember. JUDGE WILSON: You went on to say "They were defied because the masses said the police had failed and will not charge or arrest the deceased Zenzile." Do you remember saying that? ANSWER: I remember very well. JUDGE WILSON: "Zenzile was unfortunately shot by Peter Lebona, (accused No 1)." Did you say that? ANSWER: Yes that's correct. JUDGE WILSON: "Stoned and beaten to death by the angry crowd." ANSWER: That's correct. JUDGE WILSON: "The effort of the leaders to save Zenzile failed." ANSWER: Yes that's correct. JUDGE WILSON: There is no mention in your statement about Zenzile drawing a pistol or about you shooting him to protect your people who were there. ANSWER: I forgot to include that in my statement but he had a gun. 3. JUDGE /... 111 P LEBONA JUDGE WILSON: You forgot to include perhaps the most important element. ANSWER: I just forgot because this statement was written while I was two years in prison. JUDGE WILSON: Forgot that you shot him because he had a gun? ANSWER: I knew that he had a gun but I don't know what happened that I forgot that he had a gun with him. JUDGE WILSON: You made no mention in your evidence today about the effort of the leaders to save Zenzile did you? ANSWER: No I didn't tell you that. JUDGE WILSON: Why not, you said it in your statement? ANSWER: Those are the things I forgot really. JUDGE WILSON: There is nothing in your statement indicating that Zenzile was taken away from the mass meeting to the police station. What you say in your statement is that the crowd refused to allow the leadership to do this. ANSWER: Yes the crowd refused but an order was taken out to be, to take him to the police station. JUDGE WILSON: You in your statement said "They were defied because the masses said the police had failed..." and that he was then killed. Your statement, as I read it, says the order was given but it was defied by the masses and that they then killed the deceased because of their anger. You say that is not the truth? ANSWER: There was an order to take the deceased to the police station but they masses were behind us and they said the police have failed and they wanted to have clear clarity as to whether we were taking the deceased to the police station, but after I shot at him they stoned him. 3. JUDGE /... 112 P LEBONA JUDGE WILSON: But were you taking him to the police station as you told us today? ANSWER: Yes we were taking him to the police station. JUDGE WILSON: You see what you said today was you were taking him to the police station and on the way to the police station people from the meeting followed us, that's all you've told us today. ANSWER: Yes they were following us from the mass meeting. JUDGE WILSON: In your statement originally when you applied for amnesty, the statement you put up was that the killing took place at the mass meeting because the crowd wouldn't let you take him away. ANSWER: Yes. JUDGE WILSON: That is what all your other co-accused say. Have you anything further you wish to say about that? ANSWER: There is nothing that I can tell you sir. JUDGE WILSON: Can you tell us, and I can quite understand if you aren't able to tell us, about when these three women were raped, when they built the shack for them and raped them? Can you give any idea of when that was? ANSWER: I forget the date and the day because it's a long time ago but it was in 1990 when this took place, it was in 1990. JUDGE WILSON: Can you tell us when the other crime was committed when he poured paraffin over Mdevu and burned him? ANSWER: I can't remember the date, was it early 1991 or late 1990. JUDGE WILSON: It was after the women in any event? ANSWER: That was after the three women were raped. MR DE JAGER: About the three women being raped, was Ndlameni the only person present, was he the only 3. perpetrator /... 113 P LEBONA perpetrator? ANSWER: He wasn't alone but the others were not known. He was notorious because he was first a member of the ANC and he crossed the floor and he became the leader of this Kofifi group. MR DE JAGER: The other incident when the other woman was raped, was he the only one present or were there other people present too? ANSWER: There were people who raped with him but we couldn't get hold of them, they only appeared in the court of law when they were supposed to appear. MR DE JAGER: So they were arrested and in fact appeared in court for the rape? ANSWER: No they were only going to testify because of the death of the deceased. MR DE JAGER: Did the woman in fact die who was raped or did they testify about the death of Ndlameni? ANSWER: The were testifying for the death of Ndlameni. JUDGE WILSON: Could I ask one question there, were they present when Ndlameni was killed? ANSWER: According to the evidence they gave in the court of law they said they had binoculars in their hands and they saw clearly what was happening. MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Lebona you are obviously aware that a fundamental requirement for you to be granted amnesty is that you must be honest and give a full disclosure of the act in respect of which you are applying for amnesty. You are aware of that? ANSWER: I am aware of that. MS KHAMPEPE: Did you give evidence at your trial where you were convicted of murder? 3. ANSWER: /... 114 P LEBONA ANSWER: Everything I said before the court of law was lies. MS KHAMPEPE: Was the name Burota(?) mentioned in court, do you know Mr Burota, Modike Burota? ANSWER: I do not know such a person. MS KHAMPEPE: ....deceased because you wanted to save lives, that's the evidence you have given. ANSWER: That's correct. MS KHAMPEPE: If the deceased had not pulled out a gun, you would not have shot him? ANSWER: I would have never shot at him. MS KHAMPEPE: Notwithstanding the fact that he was a cancer in your area, harassing the community? ANSWER: Irrespective of the acts he did, the order was to take him to the police station but because of him pulling out his gun, I shot him. MS KHAMPEPE: How many people were present and were part of the crowd at the time of the shooting? ANSWER: The people who were following us could have been more than 600 in number, we were eight in number escorting the deceased and this large group was behind us. MS KHAMPEPE: How far away from the eight comrades was the large group, how far was the 600-strong members of the community from the eight comrades? ANSWER: They were a distance from where I'm sitting right to the door. MS KHAMPEPE: ...comrades to Mr Ndlameni? ANSWER: We were, he was in the middle and then the comrades were beside him and others behind him. MS KHAMPEPE: At that stage they were just walking normally or were you still manhandling him? 3. ANSWER: /... 115 P LEBONA ANSWER: No we were just walking, he was walking free. MS KHAMPEPE: At that stage after he had, in your belief, murdered Nabo (indistinct) that is the name of the woman who was supposed to have died at that stage? ANSWER: To be honest I was disturbed about this issue I don't know about the other comrades but the order was to take him to the police station. MS KHAMPEPE: ...you were on your way from the meeting to the police station to manhandle him? ANSWER: On our way to the police station we did nothing to him because I said to him your problem will be solved by the police and we were taking him to the police station as ordered. MS KHAMPEPE: When were you advised by Oupa that Ndlameni and his gang were colluding with the police? ANSWER: He told us this before the deceased was killed. MS KHAMPEPE: What month, the deceased was killed in July, 21 July, was this in July or was this in June when...him giving this kind of information to you, was he still a member of this vigilante group, this Oupa was he still a member? ANSWER: We got information that he was also a member of this vigilant(?) group but we didn't have full evidence because every time when these terrible acts took place his name would not appear among the members who were there. MS KHAMPEPE: Do you believe in what he said that Ndlameni and his gang were colluding with the police? ANSWER: We had never seen him for quite a long time and when he came to us he said he was still around and he was together with Ndlameni and there's a certain money that they receive and we don't get anything we only involved in the 3b struggle /... 115 P LEBONA struggle, the ANC is not giving us any money and they are working together with the police, they receive ammunitions from the police, they are giving money so that they can disrupt the activities of the ANC. MS KHAMPEPE: ...name of the police who was giving money to this gang and Ndlameni? ANSWER: The name I remember well is Nope but the others I have forgotten, this took place long time ago. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE QUESTIONS BY JUDGE NGOEPE QUESTION: Mr Lebona you said to a question that all that you had said in your trial was not the truth, so I assume that quite properly what you meant was that before what you are telling the Committee now is the truth or should be the truth. I just want to make this observation, not only as a benefit to yourself but to other aspirant applicants and most probably your co-applicants. You see my brother asked you a question about the identical statements made by yourself and your co-applicants. It actually went further than that, the contents of the application forms like paragraph 11(b) for example, are actually identical. In fact it turns out that if the dates on which they are signed are anything to go by, it turns out that they made their statements before you made your statement, so there can't be any question of them having copied from your statement. If the dates are anything to go by and if they are identical, the probabilities are that you copied from their statements. Are you sure that you did not take from their statements, the contents of their application forms like paragraph 11(b)? ANSWER: What is written in my statement is what I 3b personally /... 116 P LEBONA personally said that is what I know because I knew that before the court of law I told lies. JUDGE NGOEPE: ...they signed the application forms before you signed yours, the fact that the contents of some paragraphs are identical you say that you didn't copy from theirs it was just by accident? ANSWER: I can't explain, was this a coincidence because what they wrote is what they know and what I wrote is what I know. CHAIRMAN: Re-examination? NO RE-EXAMINATION CHAIRMAN: Is there any way in which this problem might be resolved as to how it came about that these statements are in identical terms and the similarity is so great that one does not want to reject this witness's evidence as being untruthful if there is unearthed some explanation as to how it came about that all these statements are in the same language. ATTORNEY: Chairperson I will prefer to consult further on this aspect. I did consult on it but I will prefer to consult further on it. The clarification I am seeking from this Committee is whether the possibility of the Committee accepting supplementary affidavits to the ones that, to the statements that are before the Committee, whether those will be acceptable to, that was another option that one was entertaining. CHAIRMAN: ...oral evidence here will be far better than any affidavit wouldn't it be, because it could be tested by questioning. ATTORNEY: I accept that. ...have consulted extensively about the problem that the Committee raised in relation to 3b the /... 117 the statement presented before the Committee allegedly to be from the applicant. Chairperson my instructions are as follows - when the applications were being made they were made in prison. All the applicants were in one cell and as they were in one cell, with the advices from the prominent figures from the ANC, and in particular they name mentioned here is the one of Mr Oupa (indistinct) who is the member of parliament for the ANC National Assembly. Following those advices then they assisted each other. Now in assisting each other then they charged Mr Dlanjwa. Dlanjwa, Chairperson is one of the applicants in the matter that will follow. The reason why he himself in particular was charged of assisting I am told it was because of his educational background. When he was arrested and convicted Chairperson, Mr Dlanjwa was a third year law student. I talked to him in this regard and he advised me as well that he did so, however whatever that he put down in writing is what was dictated upon by the applicant and the two other co-applicant in this matter. Chairperson this problem is similar to what we may experience in the coming matter. The statements were as well written by the same Dlanjwa. Chairperson my moving away from, these were my instructions, however when I raised an appeal the fact that it be taken, I appeal that it be taken by this Committee to cognisance that the forms were filled in prison, the applicants had no legal assistance. They may not have understood the questions on their own and hence sought assistance of their major (indistinct). Thank you Mr Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON: There is nothing wrong as far as I'm concerned with them getting assistance from one another, but 3b my /... 118 my recollection is that your client giving evidence when I asked him questions this morning said that they were in different prisons, they didn't consult together. Am I now to accept that he was lying the whole time? ATTORNEY: Chairperson the truth of the matter is about the applicant before the Committee now, I know when I had to consult with him in prison as well I had a problem, it's true that he was in the prison called "Rooigrond" in Mmabatho, when others were kept here in Potchefstroom prison, so what he was telling the Committee that he was not with others may be true in that sense. However, I am unable to explain further whether at that time of the dictation of these statements he was still in Rooigrond or he was with others and then he was moved to Rooigrond. JUDGE WILSON: So they were all together when this was dictated, there is no doubt about that. ATTORNEY: Chairperson those were my instructions. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for clearing it up I appreciate it. Are you calling the next witness? WITNESS IS EXCUSED 3b SOLOMON /... 119 SOLOMON LEKITLANA (ss) EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL Chairperson before I commence may I seek your assistance in this regard? In the light of the fact that it has become conclusive now, clear that the statements put before the Committee are of identical nature and from one source, I wondered whether will it still be preferred that the applicant as he sits there should repeat or should he cast clarity on what already has been said? CHAIRMAN: I do not think any purpose will be served in a repetition of what we have heard but I think he is required to talk about his participation that has resulted in his application. QUESTION: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Lekitlana you were sitting here when your co-applicant was giving his evidence. I am not going to make you repeat what he already said but we now know that you are asking amnesty from this Committee because of the murder that was committed in Kanana on 21 July 1991. The interest of the Committee as you heard the Chairperson, is your role in that regard. You killed or you played part in the killing of Mr Ndlameni, isn't it? ANSWER: That's correct. QUESTION: Can you now briefly or can you now extensively explain the role that you played here. The role I mean what did you as Mr Lekitlana do on that day to the body of the deceased? ANSWER: What I did to the corpse when he was shot, I open a knife and I stabbed him so that the victim should die. After he died I poured petrol on him, when I was supposed to light him Elias Busakwe he told me that he has died already so we should not burn him. 3b QUESTION: /... 120 S LEKITLANA QUESTION: Are you saying it should be put on record by this Committee that at the time you stabbed the deceased, he was still alive? ANSWER: Yes he was still alive. CHAIRMAN: What is the name of the person that prevented you from setting him alight and how do you spell his name? ANSWER: B-u-s-a-k-w-e. MR DE JAGER: Is he the third applicant? COUNSEL: He is the third applicant in this matter Chairperson. QUESTION: Solomon now we heard your role you played, can you now tell this Committee what prompted you into doing that, what prompted you into stabbing and attempting to set Mr Ndlameni alight? What prompted you to do that, why did you do that, what motivated you to do that? ANSWER: Because I was among those who said he must be killed and what he did I didn't like. QUESTION: ...would like to know that that he did that you did not like, what is that that he did that you did not like? ANSWER: He was robbing, he was raping, he was taking money from people with the name of the ANC. QUESTION: When you participated in his killing, did you have any political objective in mind? ANSWER: Are you referring to me sir, yes I had. QUESTION: We heard that what is there that you wanted to achieve politically, what is there that the deceased did to you that you... CHAIRMAN: I don't know whether it's what the deceased did, it wasn't his political objective that you wanted in the first place. 3b COUNSEL: /... 121 S LEKITLANA COUNSEL: That is his political objective. ANSWER: I just wanted to save the community by killing him. QUESTION: You are saying when you participated in his killing from your own thinking, you wanted to save the community further from, we were told that you said it in your own words as well that he was harassing the community, he was raping and he was robbing? ANSWER: I saw exactly what he did, all the things that he did, robbing, killing and raping. QUESTION: ...we understand you to be an ANC marshall, will you say that at the day and time of your commission of this act, were you acting in your capacity as this ANC marshall? ANSWER: Yes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY COUNSEL QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE QUESTION: You stated in response that you only wanted to save the community and not to gain or obtain anything, do you recall that? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: Your further testimony was to the effect that the deceased raped, robbed and took money in the name of the ANC? ANSWER: Yes. QUESTION: ...if I say this that the deceased's activities, the deceased's unwanted activities had nothing to do with free political activity in the area? ANSWER: It had nothing to do with political activity. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE QUESTIONS BY JUDGE NGOEPE QUESTION: When you say that you saw the deceased 3b committing /... 122 S LEKITLANA committing all these crimes, did you mean that, you saw that with your own eyes? ANSWER: What I have seen which he did with my own eyes is when he entered a certain house, I was with him on that day when he did that terrible action, that woman who came and make an allegation that her husband is giving her trouble then he said to the father of that house to say, he told that husband to say he must never come into that house again, if he come I'm going to kill you. When I came I found out that this is the house for the deceased, he is the father in this house. CHAIRMAN: What do you understand by that? Maybe because of language difficulties I didn't understand what the witness is trying to say. Is it possible for you to clear up what he is trying to say? COUNSEL: Chairperson may we ask him to repeat it again, I didn't understand actually what was said? CHAIRMAN: Please I want you to give your answer in such a way that we can understand what you are saying, step by step, understand? MR DE JAGER: What language is he speaking? COUNSEL: Sotho. MR DE JAGER: Are you satisfied that it's being interpreted correctly? CHAIRPERSON: Would you please just answer again because we had some difficulty understanding what was said? ANSWER: I was together with the deceased to realise that he was doing evil things, as we were walking a woman came to us and she said my husband is giving me troubles in the house. Myself and the deceased we went into this woman's house to try and bring solutions, but the next day when I go 3b back /... 123 S LEKITLANA back to the house the deceased was now the father in the house and when I requested the answer, the next door neighbour told me that no, the father has been chased away because now the brother that I see now in this family is now the new father of this house. CHAIRMAN: Yes you are now going to tell us what else you saw with your own eyes, what else did he do that you know, that you saw? ANSWER: What I've seen that he has done again, the deceased has his own people who used to work with him because they were doing wrong things. CHAIRMAN: What does that mean? ANSWER: What I've just mentioned now sir? MR DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe could you kindly ask the people not to interrupt and not to, they are making it difficult for the applicant. The applicant is seeking amnesty, you shouldn't... CHAIRMAN: Give him a chance to give his evidence, it is difficult at the best of times to come before so many people and give evidence so be patient with him. Will you please tell us what you are saying? ANSWER: Many things which I've seen that he do, I was afraid to walk with him because he was raping. What I've seen that he is doing he has a bad heart, he hit a certain woman with a stone and then we thought the woman has died. JUDGE NGOEPE: You were present when he did that? ANSWER: I was not there. JUDGE NGOEPE: We are asking you what you saw, please. ANSWER: What I've seen is when we called to come and see what the deceased has done (silence)... MR DE JAGER: Can you continue please? 3b MS /... 123 S LEKITLANA MS KHAMPEPE: What did you see the deceased doing? ANSWER: What I've seen the deceased do, I have never seen him do something but I know that what he did I didn't like. MR MPSHE: Chairperson with your permission? CHAIRMAN: Please do clear it up. MR MPSHE: Mr Lekitlana what the Committee would like to understand is as follows. You mentioned, and your co-applicant as well, mentioned that the deceased, among others, he was attacking, he was robbing, he was raping. What the Committee now will like to get from you is these deeds ...... 3b to/... 124 MR LEKITLANA to mention them to this Committee. What is there that you have seen that the deceased did? MR LEKITLANA I have never seen many of the things he was doing, but the evidence that I have is that one when we were called in to resolve an issue in a family and he ended up being the father of the family himself. That is the only incident I witnessed. QUESTION I want to follow up on the question that my learned friend asked earlier. You, as a member of the ANC an being its marshall, were there things that the ANC could not do, that the ANC was prevented from doing because of the activities of the deceased? Were there such? MR LEKITLANA Yes, there were such activities. QUESTION What were those activities? What were those activities that the deceased prevented from taking place? MR LEKITLANA When we had mass meetings the deceased would come and attack us together with his gangsters and we were marshalls to stop such actions to take place. MR LEKITLANA In a nutshell, what you are telling this Committee is that the deceased was a nuisance in that regard. MR LEKITLANA That is correct. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS ADV DE JAGER But you as marshalls were armed, you had guns as marshalls to protect the community, the meetings. MR LEKITLANA I don't know, because I didn't have a gun. ADV DE JAGER When he attacked or disturbed the meetings, didn't the marshalls shoot him? MR LEKITLANA He had never been shot at all during our meetings. ADV DE JAGER But he disturbed the meetings, so why didn't 4 the/... 125 MR LEKITLANA the marshalls act against him while he was disturbing the meetings? MR LEKITLANA There were actions to take because we tried to bring the matter to the police but there was nothing coming out of those reports. We didn't even trust the police at all. He would be arrested in the morning and in the evening would be back in the township. We lost hope in the police; we stopped negotiating with them. ADV DE JAGER The police never prosecuted any of these gang members? MR LEKITLANA Not even one of them was arrested and prosecuted. ADV DE JAGER This man Oupa, wasn't he in gaol with you? MR LEKITLANA Are you talking about Oupa? No, he wasn't in prison with me. ADV DE JAGER There wasn't any member in prison with you at a stage? MR LEKITLANA Yes. ADV DE JAGER A member of his gang. MR LEKITLANA Yes. ADV DE JAGER What is his name? MR LEKITLANA It is Oupa Madele. ADV DE JAGER So in fact he was prosecuted, Oupa. MR LEKITLANA He had just been arrested. ADV DE JAGER Do you know why he was arrested? MR LEKITLANA Rape. ADV DE JAGER So the gang of Dlameni was a gang of criminals really. MR LEKITLANA Correct. ADV DE JAGER They were no politicians. MR LEKITLANA Not. 4 JUDGE WILSON: /... 126 MR LEKITLANA JUDGE WILSON Do you remember making an application for amnesty, to which a statement was attached? MR LEKITLANA I remember. JUDGE WILSON And was the statement read over to you or dictated by you? MR LEKITLANA Yes. JUDGE WILSON Did you dictate it to somebody or was it read to you? MR LEKITLANA The co-accused was writing. JUDGE WILSON And it is correct, did it set out the facts? MR LEKITLANA The facts are from my side. JUDGE WILSON Are they correctly set out in your statement? MR LEKITLANA Correct. JUDGE WILSON Because I am reading from your statement now. You said - page 3 of the statement - page 26 of the numbered papers "Zenzile, who was subsequently taken to the mass meeting, it was at that meeting we learnt that the member of the ANC Women's League had died". Do you remember that? MR LEKITLANA I remember. JUDGE WILSON "Anger amongst our people was at its highest and when the leadership tried to rationalise the crowd to take Zenzile to the police station they were defied because the masses said the police had failed". Do you remember that? MR LEKITLANA I remember that. JUDGE WILSON "And will not charge or arrest the deceased, Zenzile. Zenzile was unfortunately murdered by the uncontrollable crowd". 4 Do/... 127 MR LEKITLANA Do you remember that? ANSWER I remember. JUDGE WILSON "The effort by the leaders to save Zenzile failed. Following his death 13 of our comrades were arrested, charged and subsequently three of us sentenced to imprisonment for 10 years for murder". Do you remember saying that? MR LEKITLANA I remember. JUDGE WILSON Was that all true? MR LEKITLANA All true. JUDGE WILSON And correct? MR LEKITLANA And correct. JUDGE WILSON So was he killed at the mass meeting after the leaders had said he should be taken to the police station? MR LEKITLANA Correct. JUDGE WILSON And you participated in that knowing it was against the orders of your leaders. MR LEKITLANA Correct. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Lekitlana, I just want to clear something. When you started your evidence, when you were being led by your counsel, you were asked a question as to why you killed Zenzile, and in your response you said you killed him because you were amongst those who said he must be killed, because you did not like what he did. I want to know when was the decision to kill Zenzile taken by yourself as you have earlier stated? MR LEKITLANA The decision was taken at the time when we were ordered to take him to the police station. As we were on our way the co-accused shot at him because he wanted to 4 run/... 128 MR LEKITLANA run away and I pulled out my knife and I stabbed him. MS KHAMPEPE Was there any discussion between you and Mr Lebona to kill the deceased on your way or en route to the police station? MR LEKITLANA No. MS KHAMPEPE So when exactly did you take a decision to kill him? MR LEKITLANA The decision was taken at the time when the deceased pulled out his gun and the co-accused saw him and he shot at him and as he shot I was also there and I wanted to stop him from shooting the community with his gun. MS KHAMPEPE Can we have some order. You stabbed the deceased after he had been shot by Mr Lebona, is that not so? MR LEKITLANA That's correct. MS KHAMPEPE Why did you stab him after he had been shot? What threat was he at that time? MR LEKITLANA He was a threat because he was still on his feet. MS KHAMPEPE How many members constituted this group that Zenzile belonged to? MR LEKITLANA Can you please repeat your question, because I won't know which group are you referring to. MS KHAMPEPE The group that Zenzile was a member of. Was he a member of any gang? Was Zenzile, the deceased, a member of any gang? MR LEKITLANA He was one member of the Kofifi(?) gangsters. MS KHAMPEPE How many members belonged to the Kofifi Gang? MR LEKITLANA I do not know, but they were many. MS KHAMPEPE Are we talking about 10 people who belonged to the Kofifi Gang? 4 MR LEKITLANA: /.... 129 MR LEKITLANA MR LEKITLANA I cannot even tell you because 10 is very small, as you've counted. MS KHAMPEPE You know Mr Oupa Mabele? MR LEKITLANA Yes. MS KHAMPEPE A member of the Kofifi Gang. MR LEKITLANA Yes. MS KHAMPEPE What else do you know about Mr Mabele? MR LEKITLANA I knew him as an ANC marshall. MS KHAMPEPE How did you come to know that Zenzile was in fact colluding with the police? MR LEKITLANA I didn't know that Zenzile was colluding with the police. Because most of the time there was a certain woman who was a CID and I forget her name, he was always in the company of this woman. CHAIRMAN Was that not because he liked women? MR LEKITLANA No, he didn't like women. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Lekitlana, would I be correct to then say in your opinion you just knew Mr Zenzile to be a person who committed criminal acts and nothing more? MR LEKITLANA Can you repeat your question? MS KHAMPEPE Would you say Mr Zenzile was known to you as a person who committed criminal acts and nothing more than that? MR LEKITLANA I didn't know him as a person committing crime. ADV DE JAGER I only want to ask you one question. Where did you get the petrol from which you poured on the deceased? MR LEKITLANA There was a car parked next to a certain house. I went to the owner of the car and I requested him to give me petrol and he gave me petrol. 4 ADV DE JAGER: /... 130 MR LEKITLANA ADV DE JAGER Before the meeting or while you were on your way to the police station? MR LEKITLANA When we were on our way to the police station I've never even had an idea of getting petrol anywhere. CHAIRMAN So when was it when you tried to go and get petrol, at what stage was that? MR LEKITLANA I went to look for petrol when I realised that he was already dead. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR Mr Lekitlana, killings, robbings and raping is not and was never the policy of the ANC, including that of ANC in Kanana where you belonged that time, isn't it so? MR LEKITLANA That's correct. QUESTION Evidence was led by the co-applicant here that Zenzile was originally known as a member of the ANC. Can you confirm that? MR LEKITLANA I confirm that. QUESTION We heard then that it came about to be known what Zenzile was doing, committing the atrocities that you mentioned before this Committee and we assume from that that he lost the membership of the ANC, isn't that so? MR LEKITLANA That's so. CHAIRMAN Did the ANC take a decision depriving him of his membership? MR LEKITLANA No, they didn't. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. MR Chairperson, I am calling the other witness and the next is Busakwe Ndoyisele Elias. He 4 will/... 131 MR BUSAKWE will giving evidence in Sosotho and Setswana. NDOYISELE ELIAS BUSAKWE s s MR Mr Chairperson, it be recorded that in this case as well the statement is similar. QUESTION Mr Busakwe, we know from the application that you were a member of the ANC and an additional member of the branch Executive Committee and a Chief Marshall of the ANC. The issue is the murder that was committed on 21st July 1991. Can you tell us or this Committee what your actual role was, what did you personally do to the body of the deceased on that day? MR BUSAKWE I did nothing to the body. I did nothing to his body. QUESTION Where were you when the deceased was killed? MR BUSAKWE I was at the mass meeting. QUESTION Can you explain the circumstances from the mass meeting level up to the death of the deceased, where were you, the role you played in all the circumstances? MR BUSAKWE We were in a mass meeting on the 21st July 1991. The mass meeting was jointly organised by the ANC and the Civic Association. The main points that were to be discussed in the mass meeting was the crime that was taking high stands in the township. I was one of the key speakers of the day. During the proceeding of the meeting a report came in, that is the report as to what the deceased did to another woman who was a member of the ANC Women's League. As a Chief Marshall I took out an order to the marshalls that were present at the mass meeting that they should rush to the place of the scene. It is true they left and when they came back they came back with the deceased and they said he was the perpetrator. Because we knew him as the 4 leader/... 132 MR BUSAKWE leader of the gangsters called Kofifi. They brought him back. When he arrived at the mass meeting we wanted to know from the comrades who brought him back as to what happened actually and they requested the deceased to tell the story himself and he explained what happened on that day with that woman. After his explanation, because I was in the leadership, we took a decision that the deceased should be taken to the police station. Many people in the mass meeting, after listening to his story, there was now a division among the people present at the meeting, especially the women. That is where we saw angry women, demanding that he should be killed. We pleaded as the leadership that the police should be given the last chance with regard to this deceased. It was a continuous strike and the position was that he should be taken direct to the police station. There were marshalls elected to escort the deceased to the police station. About five minutes after they have left we heard a gunshot and when we heard this gunshot people dispersed and many of them ran towards the direction of the gunshot. We ran towards that direction also and when we arrived we found the deceased lying on the ground. He was being stoned, he was being stabbed with knives and when I arrived, together with Comrade Buda Diamond, we appealed to the people who were killing and assaulting this person. We said, stop it, but unfortunately when we arrived he was already dead. Because I, together with comrade, picked him up from the ground and when we tried to pick him up that is when Richard Faunda arrived and he had an iron bar in his hand and he hit him on the head and that was the end of the deceased. We put him on the floor and another woman came with a rag and a blanket and we put it over to the deceased. 4 After/... 132 MR BUSAKWE After doing that, one of the accused, Mr Solomon Lekitlana, came with petrol and he poured the deceased with petrol and I rushed to him and I stopped him not to carry on with that action because the person was already dead. (NOISE) MR Chairperson, I leave it to the Committee. MR MPSHE Mr Busakwe, is it correct that the deceased was killed because of what he had done with the woman? MR BUSAKWE According to my speculation and their knowledge, it wasn't the only reason for him to be killed. MR MPSHE What is the other reason or reasons was he killed for? MR BUSAKWE Since 1990 we had problems in Kanana. People were collecting money using the organisation's name. CHAIRMAN When you say "people were collecting money", I want you to be more specific. We are talking about the deceased. Why was the deceased killed? Now you must tell us why. What were the things that the deceased did? MR BUSAKWE The other thing that I know that was committed by the deceased, three women were raped and a report was brought to the comrades the next day and I was present when the report came in. The three women were told to go and report the matter to the police station as it was a criminal case. MR MPSHE How many women were there, these women who reported? MR BUSAKWE Three of them. MR MPSHE Were they members of any political organisation? MR BUSAKWE According to my knowledge they were new in Kanana. They were still looking for a place to stay. MR MPSHE What other reason do you know about the deceased then? 4 MR BUSAKWE: /... 133 MR BUSAKWE MR BUSAKWE One other thing that I know, there was a comrade who was working in Vaalridge(?), Comrade Madewu. He was attacked by the gangster and they demanded money. They said the organisation wanted money. According to the knowledge that Comrade Madewu was member of the leadership in Kanana ... he didn't give them money and they poured paraffin and they set him alight. MR MPSHE .... you will agree that the deceased was killed because of his criminal activities, is that correct? MR BUSAKWE I agree. MR MPSHE You further agree with me that the deceased's activities, together with his gangsters Kofifi, had absolutely nothing to do with politics? MR BUSAKWE I would not agree, because of the attacks from their side were directed to the members of the organisation. Every time when we had mass meetings or rallies in the Kanana Township there would be threats from this gangsters that belonged to the deceased. At times they would come and disrupt our meetings. CHAIRMAN Did you give evidence in your trial? MR BUSAKWE Not. CHAIRMAN Was there evidence in your trial about your participation in the killing of the deceased? MR BUSAKWE I was accused for murder. CHAIRMAN I am not asking you what you were accused of, I am asking was there evidence about what you were supposed to have done? MR BUSAKWE The evidence that was brought forward was that I lifted the deceased as he was being assaulted. CHAIRMAN Is that all that was said about you? MR BUSAKWE That's correct. 4 CHAIRMAN: /... 134 MR BUSAKWE CHAIRMAN Why did you not tell the Court that you went there to help the deceased after he had been attacked? MR BUSAKWE My problem for not giving my evidence, from the first day when I was arrested I lost hope in the system. The prosecutor told me that you are going to be sentenced whether you like it or not and that is when I lost hope in the court of law. CHAIRMAN So even though you were perfectly innocent you did not give evidence. MR BUSAKWE I tried to show that I was innocent, but nothing helped. CHAIRMAN ... tried to show. I said did you not give evidence? MR BUSAKWE Explain your question further on, Sir? CHAIRMAN From what you have told us you went there to lift this man after he had been attacked. You prevented somebody from putting paraffin on this person for him to be burnt. You did all that, yet you were charged with murder and you don't go and tell the Court that you did nothing else but to try and help the deceased. Why didn't you do that? MR BUSAKWE I think I explained that to the Court. CHAIRMAN Is that the best answer you can give? MR BUSAKWE I don't understand you, Sir. CHAIRMAN Can I get your assistance in this matter, please. MR Mr Busakwe, Chairperson, I am rephrasing your question in the language the applicant is speaking, not undermining what the interpreter has been doing. Did you give evidence on the day when you were prosecuted or sentenced for committing murder? 4 MR BUSAKWE: /... 135 MR BUSAKWE MR BUSAKWE Yes. I gave evidence. QUESTION Now what evidence did you give the Court on that day? MR BUSAKWE The evidence that I gave the Court was exactly what took place on the day of the killing. QUESTION You didn't tell the Court that the part that you took was lifting the deceased in trying to help him? MR BUSAKWE Yes. QUESTION The Committee was given evidence by Peter Lebona, if I remember, that he was given a gun by you. Do you agree or do you disagree with this? MR BUSAKWE I agree with what you have just said. QUESTION Was such evidence given on the day you appeared before the court of law? MR BUSAKWE No, such evidence was not given. JUDGE WILSON Did you appeal against your conviction or sentence or have you appealed against it? MR BUSAKWE Not. MS KHAMPEPE Were you legally represented at your trial, Mr Busakwe? MR BUSAKWE Yes. MS KHAMPEPE And who was your legal representative, was he a person who came from your organisation? MR BUSAKWE He was a person whom my parents got for me. ADV DE JAGER Could you kindly repeat the answer, Mr Interpreter? MR BUSAKWE My parents found me a lawyer. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. MR MPSHE Thank you, Mr Chairperson. In the former cases there is a witness I would like to call, who is the mother to the deceased, David Mayeko, and the next-of-kin to 4 the/... 136 the deceased in question now, Dlamini, is the father Charles Dlamini. The mother with the first case to Mayeko, is available, she is seated herein, and the father to Zenzile Dlamini, I was told by the policeman that he is going to be fetched now. I would propose that we adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock for me to lead both of them in order to round up the two sets of applications. CHAIRMAN Is she not here to give evidence? MR MPSHE She is here, Mr Chairman, I was afraid not to disrupt the Committee by taking the Committee back and I have not consulted with her. She has arrived. I have not consulted with her but she is available. MR I have no other witnesses to call in this particular matter. However, Mr Chairperson, having thought that we may proceed with the next matter I wanted to raise certain concerns or issues. The Chairperson asked me to get the maximum information relating to the co-accused in the matter of Popani and others, and I am still trying to get hold of the information. I phoned the national headquarters of the ANC to provide with such an information. The response I got was that the Justice Department was phoned about the matter and they were asked to dispatch a letter before such information could be released. The ANC has done so. They are still awaiting that information to be faxed through. My request was should that information be available in the earliest it should be faxed at the fax number that I provided of this office. Further to that, the concern was raised by the applicant in this matter who informed me that they show their concern about what happened and they took certain steps in an attempt to rectify the situation or to get clarity more. I am told that a 4 memorandum/... 137 memorandum in the form of a petition was directed to the Supreme Court TPD. The response that came concerning the same matter was that they were referred to a certain Captain Schoombee who apparently was dealing with the indemnities. The response is still being awaited from the Captain Schoombee. What I was trying to put before this Committee is, there is a concern from the applicant about the same matter as well. CHAIRMAN We can only hope that all this becomes available as soon as possible tomorrow morning. There are no other witnesses whose evidence can be heard now. Is that the position? MR That is the position, Chairperson, from my side. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe, this lady comes from Khutsong to give evidence. If you are given 15, 20 minutes to consult with her and then we can sit and hear her evidence so that she can go home instead of being here until tomorrow morning. Is that not possible. CHAIRMAN We will take a short adjournment to enable you to consult with her. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS COMMITTEE RESUMES MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, I indebted to you and the members of the Committee for the time given. I have consulted with the witness who is presently on the witness stand. It is in connection with the very first matter, the matter of Faltein and Ncube, wherein the deceased is David Mayeko. The witness is going to testify in Setswana. LUCY LOMANDLA s s MR MPSHE The boy who has died, David Mayeko, is he your 4 child/... 137 L LOMANDLA child? MS LOMANDLA Yes, he is my second son. MR MPSHE Do you know that he has died on the 24th December 1990? MS LOMANDLA Yes, I know. MR MPSHE There are applicants who have come before this Committee, Faltein and Ncube. They have given evidence yesterday, they are asking amnesty for killing your son. You were not there, but I've explained to you how they have killed him, do you remember? MS LOMANDLA Yes, I remember. MR MPSHE Again, you were not there when your son was killed. You didn't see. MS LOMANDLA Yes, I didn't see. MR MPSHE Whilst I was talking to you you said on the day when your son was killed you were with him. MS LOMANDLA Yes, I was with him. MR MPSHE I am requesting that you explain to the Committee what you know which has happened on the 24th December 1990. MS LOMANDLA On the 24th December 1990 I knocked off at one o'clock. I left and then I went to buy David a TV so that he must come and enjoy Christmas with me. When I arrived when he was staying my son was clean and neat and then he said do you see how neat I am? MR MPSHE Were you not staying with him? MS LOMANDLA No, I was not staying with him. MR MPSHE Where was he staying? MS LOMANDLA He was staying with his friends because they knew that they were going to burn where I was staying so I was not staying there. 4 MR MPSHE: /... 138 MS LOMANDLA MR MPSHE Why didn't he stay with you in one house? MS LOMANDLA He was afraid of the comrades. They were calling themselves Com-Tsotsis. Therefore because he doesn't have an elder brother so he left to stay with his friends where he was staying. When I left, I left because they said they were going to burn my house. MR MPSHE Was David any member of a political party? MS LOMANDLA I don't know that he was a member of any political party, but there was a T-shirt which was written PAC. MR MPSHE Did you know about the vigilante group? MS LOMANDLA I don't know the vigilantes. They were calling themselves Com-Tsotsis and Azazim. MR MPSHE Do you know what Azazim means? MS LOMANDLA I don't know. MR MPSHE You left where you said you did go. You went to look for David. Then you found him neat and clean. May you continue from there. MS LOMANDLA Then I asked him that he must come and enjoy Christmas with us. Then he said he wants to stay with his friends for three days, then on the third day I took him so that he must go to school in Transkei. Then he said to me the situation is so tense because if they don't find me they are going to kill you or my sister, Depoa. MR MPSHE Did David tell you that why did they want to kill him? MS LOMANDLA Yes, he said to me he is not their member therefore he is not struggling with them, then he is always clean and wearing expensive clothes. MR MPSHE Go forth. MS LOMANDLA Truly that day I didn't stay. Then I went 4 to/... 139 MS LOMANDLA to pass to my grandmother's house. At that time it was ten past five. It is then that I heard that David was shot. MR MPSHE How many minutes were you separated from him? MS LOMANDLA It was about 20 minutes, the last time I saw him. MR MPSHE Proceed. MS LOMANDLA The way it was I was afraid to go to the scene but when I went to the police station to look for him he was full of blood, I was afraid even to look at him. I asked the person who was working there, that person told me that seven bullets - then he said the only one which has killed him is one on the head, and even if he would be alive, he couldn't have been well mentally. MR MPSHE How old was David when he was killed? MS LOMANDLA He was 16 years and then on the 22nd May he was going to finish 17. MR MPSHE Was he a student or was he working? MS LOMANDLA He was a student. MR MPSHE Which standard was he in? MS LOMANDLA He was doing Std 5. MR MPSHE Which school, if you know? MS LOMANDLA He was at (inaudible), then he couldn't make it because of the Sotho, then I took him to Mbulelo. MR MPSHE According to you, the way you knew David, could he be a political activist? MS LOMANDLA No, he was not for politics. He didn't like them because he was afraid. MR MPSHE According to your knowledge has David (inaudible). MS LOMANDLA All the time I knew him I was not staying with David. It is the time when I flee my house. 4 MR MPSHE: /... 140 MS LOMANDLA MR MPSHE Do you have the knowledge that David was befriending the police people? MS LOMANDLA I don't have the knowledge, but I remember one day when one policeman arrived at my workplace that I don't know where David is, he is staying in the location, then I directed him where he stays. Then he said don't hide him because I want to see him. But he just said to me I just want to see him. Then I told him that I don't want to go to location because if they don't find David they are going to kill me. MR MPSHE That policeman, was he a white policeman or a black policeman? MS LOMANDLA He was a white policeman. MR MPSHE According to the discussion with the policeman was he looking like a friendly person or a person who was going to arrest him? MS LOMANDLA It seems he was coming to arrest him. The way I was looking at him it seems he was coming to arrest him. MR MPSHE I explained to you that David was killed the way I have explained. How do you feel about this act? MS LOMANDLA I am painful because I cannot even forget David, because I had hoped that he was going to be something in the community. I had only two children. I thought David would be one that was going to work for me. MR MPSHE You did explain when we were together there that the funeral of David was not according to the plan and it has some other things. Can you explain to the Court? MS LOMANDLA David's funeral, there was no prayer, there was nothing. Then they said if there is a prayer they are going to shoot and they are going to burn, and I buried David without their knowledge and when David(>) arrived at 4 my/... 141 MS LOMANDLA my work - this Faltein he said I should stop hiding him because he is going to rot in a mortuary and then he is going to live for a long time. I am a woman. Then I was afraid of this Faltein. MR MPSHE This Faltein was talking to you straight? MS LOMANDLA No, he was talking indirectly. MR MPSHE But he was talking these things when you were passing. MS LOMANDLA I didn't believe that this Faltein was the one who killed my son, but I think he was trying to make me hurt. MR MPSHE This Faltein and Ncube, they came before this Committee to ask for amnesty in terms of what they have done. What is your feeling in terms of their request for amnesty? MS LOMANDLA I don't know how can I forgive them. They've taken my son who was going to work for me when I am old. They are going to work for their parents. Even if I forgive them, but I am not going to forget. MR MPSHE Do you have a sense of reconciliation? MS LOMANDLA Yes. MR MPSHE Do you see the need for reconciliation so that they should be forgiven? MS LOMANDLA It is me who should forgive them because there is no one who is going to forgive them because they have killed my son. MR MPSHE During your son's funeral you had expenses. MS LOMANDLA Yes. MR MPSHE In these expenses, was there somebody who was helping you? MS LOMANDLA There was nobody who helped me. I borrowed 4 money/... 142 MS LOMANDLA money from my work so that I should pay back. MR MPSHE Who was your employed? MS LOMANDLA That's Mohamed Coovadia. MR MPSHE How much did you borrow? MS LOMANDLA I asked her to borrow me R2 000. MR MPSHE Did she give it to you? MS LOMANDLA Yes. MR MPSHE Were you able to pay her back? MS LOMANDLA Yes, I was paying it in instalments. MR MPSHE We have the Committee which helps people 4 CHAIRMAN/... 143 CHAIRMAN Ladies and Gentlemen please. This is a very sad and solemn occasion for this lady who is giving evidence, and show her the respect by listening peacefully to what she has to say. QUESTION Thank you Mr Chairman. What kind of a help do you need? MISS NOMANDLE I want to put a tombstone for my son. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS CHAIRMAN Are there any questions which you might want to put to this witness? MR MPSHE Only one. CHAIRMAN Yes. MR MPSHE I heard your answering the question which was asked about forgiveness. You said there is no other person who is able to forgive the applicants without you, other than you. It has been explained by my learned that the applicants, one of them is Voltuin, another one is Ncube, they have asked for amnesty to the Amnesty Committee which is in front of us here. The question is if these two people may take other steps in a different way that they may ask forgiveness from you as the parent of the deceased, will you forgive them? MR NOMANDLE Yes I will forgive them. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS ADV DE JAGER Did they at any stage ask forgiveness from you or approached you and said they are sorry? MISS NOMANDLE They haven't come Sir. MS KHAMPEPE Miss Nomandle you have stated one of the things that David said was the reason for them hating him was because he was not struggling with the comrades and that he 5A. was/... 144 was wearing expensive clothes. Where did he get the money to buy expensive clothes? MISS NOMANDLE I was working at a shop which was selling clothes, therefore I was buying for him. MS KHAMPEPE And where is Mbulelo's school, is it in Putong? MISS NOMANDLE When did you and David last stay together as a family? MISS NOMANDLE We separated in November 1990 when they were now looking for him seriously. MS KHAMPEPE So you started fearing for his life to an extent of leaving home from November 1990? MISS NOMANDLE Yes. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. JUDGE WILSON I don't know perhaps you can tell me, have you got the address of the school he was at in 1990? MR MPSHE No Mr Chairman but that can be ascertained from the witness. JUDGE WILSON You can give us the address of the school can you? MISS NOMANDLE I don't have the address, I don't have my papers here with me. JUDGE WILSON No, if you tell us the name it will be in the telephone book won't it. I am told we can find it. And how was he doing at school? MISS NOMANDLE He was doing very well from primary when I was taking him there. They told me that he had difficulties with Sotho, then I talked with his mistress. That other things which are taught in the medium of Sotho he doesn't understand them, therefore he failed them, then he said I should take him to the Xhosa school, then he said he will be okay, then he passed the same year in a new school, when he 5A. was/... 145 was killed. JUDGE WILSON And we have heard about a place 658, do you know that place, house no.658? Sorry I've given the wrong number, 856, yes sorry. MISS NOMANDLE 856, yes. JUDGE WILSON Is that near where he was staying or near where your grandmother is? MISS NOMANDLE 856 is where my grandmother was staying, but David was never killed near there. JUDGE WILSON Where was he killed near, do you know? MISS NOMANDLE I don't know the number but I know that it was the house of Mr Ghale. JUDGE WILSON 685 was the number of the house we were given. MISS NOMANDLE I think that is the correct one. JUDGE NGOEPE With whom did he stay when you were no longer staying with him? MISS NOMANDLE He was staying where his aunt was staying. He was staying with his aunt. JUDGE NGOEPE Well to put a question in perspective, a question which was asked to you earlier on about the clothing, you see evidence was given before us here, for what it was worth, that David put on very expensive clothing to an extent that they were suspicious that he probably was getting some money from the police. Now I know you have said that you bought him clothes he remained neat and the like, but would you say that you were in fact buying him what would appear to be expensive clothing? MISS NOMANDLE I was working at the Indian shops and then the Indian shops' clothes are not quite expensive. JUDGE NGOEPE He was dressed like an average child, not 5A. extraordinary/... 145 extraordinary, am I right or wrong? MISS NOMANDLE He was dressing like any other child. JUDGE NGOEPE Now you have mentioned what I thought you were wanting to say AZASM, am I close enough to what you wanted to say? MISS NOMANDLE David was belonging to the AZASM group and he was fighting with the Com Tsotsis, so I didn't understand those things because I didn't even want to know them. JUDGE NGOEPE Now to the best of my knowledge AZASM stood for Azanian Student Movement, now was he active in student movements? Was he an active member of any student movement? MISS NOMANDLE When I was staying with him, even when I was not staying with him? JUDGE NGOEPE Whether during the time you stayed with her, with him or during the time that you did not stay with him were you aware? MISS NOMANDLE At that time when he was staying with me I didn't hear about him talking about any participation in any student movement. JUDGE NGOEPE And the time you were not staying with him? MISS NOMANDLE Is then that I started to hear about AZASM. JUDGE NGOEPE From whom did you hear about this AZASM, from him? MISS NOMANDLE I had people talking about those things when there was a fight between the two parties. JUDGE NGOEPE Well I thought you said they called each or they would call each other AZASM? I thought you were also referring to the deceased? MISS NOMANDLE It was that group which were telling me that they were fighting with the Com Tsotsis, the AZASM were telling me that they were fighting with the Com Tsotsis. 5A. JUDGE NGOEPE:/... 146 JUDGE NGOEPE Well did the deceased fall into any of the groups either AZASM or Com Tsotsis? MISS NOMANDLE I didn't know which group he was falling either AZASM or Com Tsotsis, I was surprised, I thought even it's PAC because I got the T-shirt there. JUDGE NGOEPE I don't understand under what circumstances anybody could have told you about the conflict between AZASM and the Com Tsotsis, if this was not told to you by your son. MISS NOMANDLE I was not told by my son I was just hearing about, from people because I was staying - in town there were people were telling me that AZASM were fighting with the Com Tsotsis. JUDGE NGOEPE By the way what made you become scared of staying at your - at home? MISS NOMANDLE What made me to flee my home is that they came home and then my neighbour told me again that they came. When I are forced to sleep in my house and then people were dancing and singing and then the following day I packed my things and then I left the furniture there. But they didn't burn. JUDGE NGOEPE Why would they do that to you? MISS NOMANDLE That time the way they were fighting it seems if they don't get somebody they meet(?) they would kill the mother or any other person in the family, any other person in the family was had. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you get the impression that they were after your son? MISS NOMANDLE Yes the impression was created that that day when I came to visit him he said I think you should not stay, if they come and find me here they are going to kill 5A. you/... 147 you. JUDGE NGOEPE Did he tell you why they wanted to kill, why they were after him? MISS NOMANDLE He didn't tell me but he just said they are fighting each other. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you not want to find out from him as your son and say well just tell me what is this problem about, it must be a huge problem so much so that you wanted to leave your house? MISS NOMANDLE I did ask him that, why did they fight me but he just said they are fighting each other. If they are going to make some mass action he didn't participate in that activities. JUDGE NGOEPE Now you say after his death you found a T-shirt with the PAC letters or emblem. MISS NOMANDLE Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE Were you seeing that for the first time after his death? MISS NOMANDLE Yes I was seeing it for the first time. JUDGE NGOEPE You wouldn't know who bought it for him? MISS NOMANDLE No. JUDGE NGOEPE I wanted to ask you whether you know Mr Nlavane or Mr Mche(?) can you help me, who were the two people who were with the deceased, allegedly, who were allegedly in the company of the deceased except Scarface? MISS NOMANDLE Constable Mkonza, David Maseko is one and the other one is Sigodhlo. David Maseko because he was staying at his home. Maseko I'm not sure whether it's David or not, but I know that is Maseko. JUDGE NGOEPE At whose home did he stay? MISS NOMANDLE David was staying at Maseko's place. 5A. JUDGE NGOEPE:/... 148 JUDGE NGOEPE Is it the same house where your son was staying? No, no, was he staying together with your son at his aunt's place, at your son's aunt's house? MISS NOMANDLE He was staying at the Maseko family because his aunt was married at the Maseko family. JUDGE NGOEPE Let me start all over again, maybe I have confused you. Your son was staying with his aunt? MISS NOMANDLE Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE Did David Maseko also stay in the same house where your son was staying? MISS NOMANDLE Yes his aunt was married in that family. JUDGE NGOEPE And Skotell? MISS NOMANDLE I do not know anything about Skotel. JUDGE NGOEPE Was David Maseko also a student? MISS NOMANDLE I do not know. JUDGE NGOEPE I see. Thank you. QUESTION No re-examination Mr Chairman thank you. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much to come and give evidence at such short notice, and we are sorry if you have been inconvenienced. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED 5A. MR MPSHE/... 149 MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, members of the committee the next witness is in the last matter that we dealt with of Lekikhlane(?), Lebona and Busakwe(?) if the Committee allows me to call him now. He is available. I have consulted with him. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe, where does he come from? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman he comes from Ganana it's a distance of, according to the police, 30 minutes drive. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe apart from just the members of the Committee who are prepared to listen we may be inconveniencing others who are in the support team that runs this meeting, and I think it is now 4:30. It is beyond our normal time, and I think if it not going to be too inconvenient we should adjourn and commence proceedings at 9:30 tomorrow morning. MR MPSHE As it pleases the Chair and the members of the Committee. CHAIRMAN This Committee will adjourn now until 9:30. All of you who have earphones please return your earphones before you walk out of this hall. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS 5B. ON/... GCINISIZWE NKINISIWE AND UMKONTWANA PATRICK MR MPSHE Mr Chairman and members of the Committee I am advised by my learned friend that they are not going to be called in that sequence in which they appear in the bundle. But the first to testify will be Gcinisizwe who is number two, followed by Umkontwana who is number three, and lastly it will be Popane who is number one on the list. Unfortunately Mr Chairman and members of the Committee the bundle is not paginated for me to refer the members of the Committee with ease where Gcinisizwe's application is, but it is somewhere towards the middle. My apologies for such an omission. Gcinisizwe's application is number 1289 in the bundle. I will now then Mr Chairman hand over to my learned friend. QUESTION Thank you Mr Chairman, I will now call the next applicant Gcinisizwe Nkinisizwe. Mr Chairman, the applicant will testifying or giving his evidence in siXhosa(?). I ask him to be sworn in please. DLANJWA GCINISIZWE (sworn states) QUESTION Mr Gcinisizwe, you are making an application for amnesty before this Committee today. The act that you are asking amnesty on is on the act of murder committed on the 31st October 1990, two, the act of attempted murder committed on the 31st of October 1990. Both acts, in terms of the application were committed at Kuma location taxi rank near Stilfontein. Can you explain to the Committee, we see in your application the person murdered was Abednigo Nzimeni Mazwi and the one assaulted, the attempted murder was for Charles Mhlambiso. Can you 1A. to/... 151 explain to the committee the role you played when Abednigo was killed and when Charles Mhlambiso was nearly killed? MR GCINISIZWE Yes I will, firstly since the 30th of October 1990, Charles Mhlambiso and Abednigo Mazwi and their other friends, they went into Mrs Mary Agnes Kunwana's house who was a member of the executive of the ANC, who was the chairperson of the Kuma Civic Association as well, who was the chairperson of the ANC branch, Women's League. We were staying at her house. Nzimeni and Mhlambiso went there and they threw an explosive device to the property. There was a meeting before. It was the ANC Youth Congress meeting, which is my branch. In this meeting the discussion was regarding the things that Nzimeni and his group were doing in their struggle in the location. There was a proposal tabled, been debated upon as the executive of the ANC Congress, that Nzimeni must be attacked. Nzimeni and the group, they must be attacked. Whilst busy debating around that matter, a marshal arrived telling us that Nzimeni has just arrived with a Combi with his group in the Combi and they said they will be back again. We went back to the meeting and then we decided not to proceed with the meeting and stay alert for anything that might happen. The other comrades went away to go and collect other comrades as well. Nzimeni came back again with the Combi and he threw the explosive that I've just mentioned earlier on. We had a very extraordinary meeting thereafter. The meeting of the leadership of the Stilfontein branch the ANC. JUDGE WILSON You've said ANC before, do you mean ANC or do you mean ANC youth. MR GCINISIZWE I'm talking about the ANC, the African National Congress. 1A. JUDGE WILSON/... 152 JUDGE WILSON So this extraordinary meeting, was that of the Congress, that was the Youth Congress meeting was it? MR GCINISIZWE I will clarify. It was a joint sitting of the African Congress leadership, South African Youth Congress, which is SAYCO, the Stilfontein branch, African National Congress the Women's League, and the marshals that used to stay in Mary Agnes' house, all the occupants of Mary Agnes' house, they were all present. Yes I'll carry on. In that meeting we were discussing the issue of Nzimeni and the attack that he had already launched, that it was very clear that Nzimeni not prepared to reconcile with us and make peace with us. He was not prepared to reconcile with us at all. There were two viewpoints in that extraordinary meeting. The first one was that Nzimeni must be attacked and the rest of the group must be put on the run. And the next view point was that Nzimeni must be taken to the police. This view was advanced by myself an Patrick Mkontwana as members of the working committee which was established in accordance to the Groote Schuur minute to diffuse all possibilities of violence that might occur in the township, particularly due to the confrontation between the police and the ANC members. Then what happened afterwards, we agreed that we should take them to the police, we'll apprehend them and take them to the police because I did raise this issue in one of our meetings as a working group and Mr de Beer who was a policeman and was a member of the working group, apparently, said that they ran away from the location and therefore it's not easy to locate them. And we said that we'll take it upon ourselves to locate them and take them to the police. The following day we were going to look for the taxi that was driving them around the previous day and we 1A. woke/... 152 woke up the following morning with other comrades and marshals, we went to the taxi rank to try and locate this taxi. When we got to the taxi rank we found the taxi and the driver. When we asked him as to where were the people that that you were transporting yesterday, at night, he said that he does not work at night, there is someone else who does the night duty, he only does the day duty. We explained to him clearly our position to the taxi drivers who were there on the 31st of October 1990, we were explaining them clearly about our standpoint as the ANC Stilfontein Branch in the location, that we please plead with them to help us find Njima Nzimeni, should he hijack one of their taxis they must please go straight to the police station. And whilst we were trying to explain this to these taxi drivers, Charles Mhlambiso was supported by the comrades that were accompanying me, he was near Nzimeni. Please bear in mind that Nzimeni's house is not so far from the taxi rank. On arrival of the comrades at Nzimeni's house, as we were busy addressing the taxi drivers, the comrades they started beating up Charles Mhlambiso with pangas and knives because we were armed all the time. Then we rushed to the scene. When we got to the scene I started pulling Charles Mhlambiso from a ...(indistinct) and I explained to the comrades that our attitude and our standpoint in the meeting, I instructed two marshals to take Charles to the police on the 31st of October in the morning. Then we went into Nzimeni's house. When we got inside I spoke to his mother and wanted to know where Nzimeni is. She told me that he ran away. I enquired at the people in the street as to whether they did see him. No, nobody knew. Now I started to become scared because the 1A. comrades/... 153 comrades were very angry. They were angry because we managed to stop them killing Charles because they'd already poured petrol on him and they were about to set him alight looking for matches when I stopped them. The comrades were very angry. And that is not a surprise because in our meeting there were mixed feelings as to whether we must kill them or what exactly must we do with them. I went to Mrs Botman who is the front opposite with Mrs Mazwi which is Nzimeni's mother. When I got to Mrs Botman who is a member of the ANC Youth League and she used to help us with food, I did explain to her my concern and my fear that the comrades can do something that I am not sure as to what it is. As I was still discussing this with Mrs Botman we heard noise and then when we rushed out we found comrades, they were beating up Nzimeni. They hit him with pangas and knives, with everything they came across. I just stood there, I never went there to try and interfere. As the leader of the comrades, as the leader of SAYCO, as a member of the executive of the ANC and as a member of the working group as well, I never tried to stop the comrades to do this and in that respect I'm guilty. I'm not immune from any sense of guilty. I feel more guilty than the active participants in the actual deed because if I did use my powers as a leader, this would not have happened. If I did go try and stop them and reminded them about our standpoint in the meeting, this would have never happened. In that respect I'm very sorry. I'm sorry to God my creator, I'm sorry to Mrs Mazwi, the mother, I'm sorry to Mrs Mazwi, the wife, I'm sorry to the rest of the bereaved family. I failed Nzimeni, I accept and I admit in front of this Committee, that I did fail Nzimeni. And after that Nzimeni 1A. lay/... 154 lay down next to the taxi rank because they were driving him all the way along. On arrival I advised the comrades to go back to Mrs Agnes' house. When we got to Mary Agnes' house I advised the comrades further who were present at that moment, who participated in the murder of Nzimeni, that they should leave. They should run away because the police will be coming after us and we knew that they will be coming at Mary Agnes' house to arrest us. And once again I'm sorry to Mrs Mazwi that the people who victimised her child, I personally advised them to run away, but I'm not sorry to the criminal system about the thing that I did. I'll stop there. QUESTION Mr Gcinisizwe, we understand that at the time you were in the leadership of the South African Youth Congress, you mentioned you participated in the working group that was set in terms of the Groote Schuur Minute and you were also in the executive of the ANC. You at the time of the assault, I'm taking you to the time of the assault of Charles Mhlambiso, you said people, the comrades that you were with, started hitting him with pangas and they almost killed him by pouring petrol on him. Can you mention, who were those people, their names? Who was hitting with panga, who was hitting with stone, who was the one who wanted to pour petrol and wanted to set him alight? MR GCINISIZWE The comrades that I saw who participated at that time, you must understand that the whole scene was emotional, there was just a commotion because it was next to a taxi rank and it was the morning, people being on their way to work, the comrade that I saw was comrade Baby-Face, the first one and comrade Baring Letia too, comrade Shepherd Charlie and a few other comrades that I don't know their 1A. names/... 155 names. I have just forgotten their names. About two or three of them that were there at that time, who were hitting him at the time. QUESTION And now Nzimeni, who hit Nzimeni with pangas? MR GCINISIZWE The comrades participated in hitting Nzimeni, the comrades that I saw on my way out of Mrs Botman's house, some of them I just know their first names. The first one, Frans Masike is the first one, comrade Albie Fasie(?), comrade Charlie, Shepherd Charlie, comrade Gomilivi, comrade Madala was there as well. I just know him as Madala, and just a few other comrades that I just cannot recall their names clearly. But I think in my motivation that I wrote, I did mention them, in my motivation. On the last page of my motivation, I did mention them. QUESTION Mr Gcinisizwe, and who was this Nzimeni, how did you know Nzimeni? MR GCINISIZWE Firstly let me say Nzimeni's issue is quite confusing. Firstly we knew him as a member of the organisation and then on the 23rd of August 1990, ...(intervention) QUESTION I am sorry to interrupt there, when you say at first you knew him as a member of the organisation, which organisation, can you be specific? MR GCINISIZWE I'm talking about the South African Youth Congress. On the 23rd of August 1990, we were to have a meeting. Okay let me go a bit further back, before the 23rd of August there was a meeting organised somewhere in July, it was an organised mass meeting. That mass meeting, it was going to discuss about the invitation to the MDM coming from the policemen who were based at the location, there was a threat and a rumour around the location that the houses of 1A. the/... 155 the police would be burned down because of the murder Hendrick Mkwanasi who was murdered by the police by two policemen and the house of one of the policemen was burned down. There was that threat that the policemens' houses would be burned down. We had a meeting as MDM structures whether to accept the invitation or reject it after the invitation of the police. Then we could not reach an agreement as to whether we should reject or accept that because of political implications of it. Then we decided to take the matter to the mass meeting and indeed we did call the mass meeting to discuss the issue. Whilst we were busy debating this issue in this mass meeting Nzimeni and his group arrived. They had pangas and knives. They had all the weapons you can think of that are dangerous except for guns, and they had car tyres around their necks which is a necklace symbol, in the past. They said we are selling them out as leadership and we are selling them out to our killers. They threatened to attack us then and there. Nomazwe Chonemane, who used to work in the Lawyers for Human Rights who was there in the meeting as a resident of Kuma now she's a member of parliament in the North West Region, she tried to speak to Nzimeni and his group that the issue has not yet been finalised, we are still debating the issue and they must just be part and parcel of the deliberations of the meeting. And if ever you're reject it, just try and be available. They did not want to take Nomazwe Jomela's advice. We decided as leadership then and there that we must just recess. That I knew him as a member of the South African Youth Congress is because he used to be present in our meetings and he was present in that meeting on that particular day but the manner and the approach that he used, 1A. I/... 156 I started suspecting him personally that there was something that was just not proper with him. But my analysis about him was not conclusive as such. Thereafter we went to Mary Agnes' house then we discussed a few things furthermore, because there was the issue of the rent in the location that we were still discussing. And on the 23rd of August 1990, we were going to discuss the issue of rent in the location. We were going to have a mass meeting in the local stadium. We were preparing for the mass meeting that was to be on the 26th of August 1990. On arrival at the meeting in the local creche, the meeting didn't materialise because of the absence of certain key figures that were going to be there in the preparation of this mass meeting or mass rally. On the 26th of August or just before that, on our way out to Mary Agnes to try and contact these leaders that were absent, we met Nzimeni and his group being armed with these pangas and kerries and knives, they were having food and tinned stuff and bread. We met them between creche and shops just in the open, being the leadership in the location they stopped us to find out that we did get the permission to use the stadium. Mary Agnes Kunwana did explain to them that the permission issue of the stadium will be sorted out and they told that it is wanted urgently. We wondered as to what is happening. We enquired as to where they were going to. They just told us that they were monitoring in the location. Having passed the shops, the shops were still open, they were carrying food and firearms. We suspected that there was something that they might have done. We enquired in the shopowners as to what happened. They told us that there were people who claimed that they were comrades and took food forcefully from their shops. Then we went 1A. back/... 157 back to Mary Agnes' house. Then we discussed informally that these people, they are not comrades, they cannot be called comrades and (Tape 1A ends....) ......prepared for the meeting to be held on the 26th of August. I was assigned to go an get permission to use the stadium from the Chief Magistrate. I was on very good terms with the Chief Magistrate of Klerksdorp. In most cases we are not allowed to use stadiums in the location, particularly the police, they didn't like the idea, I don't know why. Then I came back with the permission to use the stadium. It was on Friday when I came with the permission. On the 26th of August, in the morning, my father woke me up to say that I've got a phone call from Mary Agnes. Mary Agnes told me to arrive at her house urgently. Then I hurried there. On my arrival I found certain ANC leaders in the location. When I enquired if there was any problem they told me that Nzimeni came into Mary Agnes' house with a large group at about half past four in the morning, being heavily armed with pangas and they explained to Mary Agnes that no leader of MDM will be allowed to talk with the residents in the township. No leader's going to address that mass meeting on that day, and they demanded a sound speaker that we used to use in mass meetings and it belonged to Mary Agnes' sister who was staying in Johannesburg, for use in our meetings and they demanded that they will be back to collect them. So we sat and waited. They came, these people, with people that were being intimidated to join that group, to go to the stadium. That group just showed that they were heavily armed. They went into Mary Agnes' street and I was terrified and quiet and one of them did ask me as to why am I so quiet. I just wanted to know as to what should I say. 1B. He/... 158 He told me that he must use the speaker. I told him that you've got the speaker, we'll give you the speaker. I told him that Derek Kosi, who was a member of the ANC and who was in the leadership as well will transport it with his car. They said no, there's too many soldiers out there. So therefore they carried the speaker to the stadium. Most of the people who were there, you could actually see that they were intimidated. They looked surprised and confused, they did not know what was happening. They saw that here's the leadership that we've chosen, but what is actually happening? Some of us came back to us, they never actually reached the stadium. Those who came back, they told us that they were being taken forcefully out of the house with knives and pangas. One of these cases we referred to the police station, that it should deal with those matters, we don't have the power to deal with those. Then we proceeded to the stadium and we sat down as the leadership to discuss some of these issues, particularly in relation as to what was happening at that time regarding Nzimeni's issue and his group. We came to a conclusion that we must go to a main hall because there was a meeting of National Union for Mine Workers. When we got there we explained the situation to the comrades of the mines. The workers gave us 50 marshals and two leaders of National Union of Mine Workers and go to the stadium and try and find out as to what is happening and what's Nzimeni's problem, because you know him as a member of the Youth Congress. When we got to the stadium with the marshals, two leaders of the National Union of Mine Workers, they got to the podium to try and talk to Nzimeni. Nzimeni made his point very clear that these things have got nothing to do with the mines, it's a location issue QUESTION Chairperson, that was raised that this documentation need to be disclosed before the Committee, that was not disclosed to me, I do not have it in the Department but I believe it's proper that the Committee should have possession of the documentation. ADV MPSHE But find out from the applicant whether there is anything of substance in that particular document which has not been covered in what we have. QUESTION Thank you Chairperson. The disclosure, motivation that you are referring to here Mr Gcinisizwe, the Committee, you heard, would like to know if you believe it will be much of relevance to the Committee, vis a vis to 1B. what/... 159 what you have already said in your application. MR GCINISIZWE In the brief motivation attached to the application, there are some of the issues and activities of Nzimeni that are not on and I think we are here to clarify further on what is not on the document, what we didn't indicate in this, in the briefing. QUESTION No, may I ask you this, in that document which we don't have, is there anything which firstly has not been covered by your handwritten submission? Secondly, what items have not been covered by your oral evidence? MR GCINISIZWE I think it's there. QUESTION Perhaps you are still testifying, maybe I should ask that question after the end of your evidence. I'll assume you'll get to telling us everything, including that which is contained in those documents, isn't it? MR GCINISIZWE Yes it is so. JUDGE WILSON Do you realise that what we are asking you about is not the brief motivation which was attached to your application, we are asking about the full disclosure which was submitted separately to the Department of Justice? MR GCINISIZWE Yes I'm aware. QUESTION Chairperson, I have no further questions for the witness on the stand from my side. QUESTION Well maybe we should do this. Mr, you have just said to me that in the (Tape 1B ends) ......which are neither contained in your written submission nor in the evidence you have thus far given, am I right? MR GCINISIZWE Yes it is so. QUESTION And you say that those things are relevant? MR GCINISIZWE Yes I think they are important. QUESTION Tell us what those things are. Because we don't 1B. therefore/... heavily armed and by that time we were not armed yet. We had not started arming ourselves yet. When the comrades reported at the National Union of the Mine Workers, they advised that the comrades of the location must find a taxi and that we must hunt for these people and we've got the taxis to do that. And we found them then we beat them up, we find some of them, we beat them up on the 26th of August. The one I remember very well is Carter and other two that we found on that day, the rest of the group, we never found them, they were already in hiding. On that same day, after having beaten them up we took them home. On that same day I got a call from my mother to say that you must never come home today, Nzimeni has just left with his group and are having all dangerous weapons and they say they want your head. You better stay just where you are. And I assured her that I'm safe because there's comrades in Agnes' house. On Wednesday I was arrested for beating these people. After a lengthy trial at the regional court which took a year, in the Klerksdorp Regional Court, we were acquitted on the basis of lack of evidence against accused. It was myself, Siabonga Sebe, Walter Siharudzi and Albie Fasie. All of us were in this case of beating these other group members. On Monday the 27th, on the 27th of August it was on a Monday, we were still hunting for them. We had strength and power and the comrades were coming into Agnes place and we were carrying pangas and knives as well, all these dangerous weapons because the situation was becoming clear that it was dangerous. We heard from the local police station when we got there, we were told that Mr de Beer will be called because he was with us in the working 1B. group/... 160 group. When he came, Mr de Beer, there were two comrades from the Regional Office, Zakes Mulekane and Howard, he was the chairperson of the regional office ANC, and Howard Dao. We cannot discuss this in front of the police, we must go to a meeting. Then we went to Wurakanela High School on the 27th of August. When we got there we sat down and discussed this matter trying to get their viewpoint as to why do they do this? The things that they disclosed they were not clear, they said they don't believe that we must discuss to form a working group with the police because they are not, I'll explain this issue of KUYOK. KUYOK of 1986 which was burning and finding targets, burning police cars and bakeries, everything they would enter the location delivering, burning police houses and everything. They said they were members of KUYOK and they don't believe into the things that we do to sit down discussing. They don't like discussions at all. We came...(intervention) QUESTION I believe you have outlayed the way Mazwi conducted himself and you said that the manner that, as a member of the ANC, the manner he conducted himself made you suspicious of him. What is there that you suspected about him? MR GCINISIZWE You know when you are a member of an organisation, you've got a democratic right to participate in all meetings and all the discussions and their strategies. When you fight for a struggle of the freedom of the people in South Africa in general and the people of Kuma. CHAIRMAN Answer, what made you suspicious of this man? MR GCINISIZWE It's because of his behaviour and his deeds, we started being very 161 therefore they must disappear before, because they threatened them because they were suspicious of him and the fact that 1B. they/... 161 they took food forcefully and carrying pangas and things that we never carried as members of the ANC and members of the Youth Congress as well. QUESTION Referring you to the application that the members of this Committee have in their possession, in answering the question asked it's 10.A where you were asked to state a political objective sought to be achieved. QUESTION ....because to some of us this question may be important, you asked the question and there was some misunderstanding I believe and the Chairman interrupted, that's not the question you asked the witness, you didn't ask the witness as to what made you suspicious of him, your question was, what is it that you suspected of him, that was actually the question and that question hasn't been answered. What is it that you suspected of him? MR GCINISIZWE The main thing that I was suspecting about Mazwi was that he was not a groomed patriot, he's not a member of the ANC or the ANC Youth Congress as he was claiming, because of his deeds. QUESTION Was there anything that you may have seen in him or what he did and you saw that made you suspicious that he could be doing what he did out of mandate from somewhere other than the ANC structures? MR GCINISIZWE You see the way he was, his attitude when he was about to talk to us, that's one thing that made us very suspicious of him, then the language that he was using, that's some of the things that made us to be very suspicious of him. But it was just suspicions. QUESTION I know you said you suspected that he was not a groomed person and he probably was not a genuine member of the ANC as he claimed he was, what did you suspect he was? 1B. I/... 162 I know you told us what you suspected he was not but I would like to know what you suspected him to have been? MR GCINISIZWE I was suspecting that he was an informer, a spy. QUESTION You are saying it is what he did that made you suspect him to be an informer, or is there anything in particular that you can name and mention to this Committee that you believed because of that he was genuinely suspected to be a spy? MR GCINISIZWE I don't know where to start answering this question as to be in the manner that you want me to answer you. But when a person starts behaving like that in the Organisation and within the ranks of the ANC Youth structure, somebody who tries to be against the leadership, somebody who behaves in the manner in which Nzimeni was behaving, you could just clearly see that there was a motive behind. He was a person that when you analyse him you could see that he was just acting on a mandate. That was the thing that made us to have suspicions of him. ADV CHRIS DE JAGER Isn't the position that he wouldn't abide by the decisions of the ANC, maybe even he was jealous of your leadership and he wouldn't accept the ANC's discipline? MR GCINISIZWE There was a revelation that was made by Charles Mhlambiso, the one who was on attempted murder, there was a revelation that he made to us when we had caught him. That revelation was tape-recorded by the comrades. That tape record, we took it to the ANC National Headquarters, that tape regarding the revelation of Charles Mhlambiso, about the fact him and Nzimeni were being used by a certain Mr de Kock and a Mr Pretorius. Charles Mhlambiswa told us 1B. this/... 163 this, whether he told us that because he was being intimidated and scared that we might beat him up but that was the revelation that he gave us. One of their group members on the 30th of October, he jumped off at Kumbe and he made similar revelations that were made by Charlie and we took him to the police station instantly. CHAIRMAN Just give me the name of these two policemen again? MR GCINISIZWE A certain Mr de Kock, I know him as Mr de Kock and Mr Pretorius. MS SISI KHAMPEPE When was this revelation made to you by Mshambi? MR GCINISIZWE I don't remember the date clearly, but it was before Nzimeni was killed. JUDGE WILSON You have said, and I just want to make quite sure I understood you, the revelation was made by Charles Mhlambiso "when we had caught him", so it was you who caught him, is that so? MR GCINISIZWE No the comrades caught him and I found him at Mary Agnes. I found him at Mary Agnes being caught by the comrades. JUDGE WILSON That's not what you said a minute or so ago, you then said, "when we had caught him". Where was this tape recording taken? MR GCINISIZWE Detect a problem, because when I say we, I use a collective approach, so I have a problem that I'll have a problem with that. JUDGE WILSON Yes. And where was this tape recording made? MR GCINISIZWE In Mary Agnes' house. JUDGE WILSON So he was taken to Mary Agnes' house, questioned, a tape recording was taken and when was he 1B. assaulted/... 164 assaulted? MR GCINISIZWE He was assaulted on the 31st of October. On that day he was not assaulted. It was before the attempted murder when he gave that revelation, he was not assaulted on that particular day. MS SISI KHAMPEPE Why had your group caught him, why had you apprehended Mhlambiso? MR GCINISIZWE It's because we were looking for them, we were looking for them desperately. We were fighting with their group. We were fighting with them, and the struggle as well. MS KHAMPEPE What did you intend to do with him after you had caught him? MR GCINISIZWE As I've said, as I've already mentioned that I was a member of the working group and after having explained this and Patrick Nkondona in the meeting of the working group, Mr de Beer said that they couldn't find them, they have run away. That's one of the reasons that made us to look for them desperately, to search for them, Charles and Nzimeni. MS KHAMPEPE You haven't answered question did you catch him with the purpose of taking him to the police station? MR GCINISIZWE Yes it is so. JUDGE WILSON Did you take him to the police station? MR GCINISIZWE No we never took him to the police station. He asked us not to. JUDGE WILSON Well that's fairly probable isn't it, why did you listen to him? You caught him because you wanted to take him to the police station because you were fighting with his group, why didn't you? 1B. MR GCINISIZWE/... 165 MR GCINISIZWE The thing is we were satisfied by the information that he gave us and we had to take this information to the National Office of the ANC so that they should guide us as to what to do after these revelations by Charles. The issue of the police, we'd see to it afterwards, because he pleaded with us that should Nzimeni know that he was there, then he would be in trouble. JUDGE WILSON Wasn't it likely he would go and tell the people he was working for, Mr de Kock and Mr Pretorius that you had captured him? MR GCINISIZWE Can you repeat the question? JUDGE WILSON Wasn't it likely if you released him that he would go to Mr de Kock and Mr Pretorius and tell them that your gang was after him, that you'd captured him, you'd forced him to tell you what he was doing. MR GCINISIZWE No we never thought about that. CHAIRMAN Perhaps this might be a convenient stage to the short adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION DLANJWA GCINISIZWE (s.u.o.) CHAIRMAN Yes you may proceed. QUESTION Thank you Chairperson. Mr Gcinisizwe, we had the background and the events of the time and what happened to your involvement that is the role. The question that I want to ask you now is, do you believe in your mind that what happened or transpired at the time was politically motivated? MR GCINISIZWE Yes I believe so. QUESTION Referring you to your application again, Chairperson, members of the Committee, it's in this 1B. application/... 166 application form, Section 10B. You said the Court acknowledged the fact that the offence was politically motivated. The question that I want to pose to you is when you wrote this statement, are you, or did you rely on your memory of what happened at Court during trial or on some documentation you may like it to be produced for members of the Committee? MR GCINISIZWE Both and documentation. QUESTION The documentation I want to assume that what I have in my possession, it's a, I don't know if you are referring to it, it's only an article of a newspaper. Are you referring to it? MR GCINISIZWE Yes I'm referring to the article of City Press 20th March, it was written by Dan Dhlamini, in the documentation. CHAIRMAN 20th of March of what year? MR GCINISIZWE 1994. QUESTION Chairperson, I believe members of the Committee were afforded this article. JUDGE WILSON Before you go on, I don't know if it's only my paper that's a problem, is if you look at 10B, it says, the Court acknowledges the fact that the offence was politically motivated, then, see enclosed separate pages for a brief motivation. Now I take it those are the pages which are numbered 5, 6, 7 and 8. They follow immediately after, are those the pages? QUESTION Chairperson, if it is referred to the page 1 that is written Section 10B and others that follow, that is correct. JUDGE WILSON Then it says, full disclosure, motivation has been submitted to the Department of Justice. Now I don't 1B. know/... 166 know if we are supposed to have that document before us, I have not seen it? QUESTION Chairperson, if I may answer to that query, I, Chairperson, you'll remember yesterday, when the chairperson asked me to seek maximum information relating to some of the co-accused of the applicant here at the trial as to the reasons why they were given indemnity, in my report when, after having consulted with the applicant, I gather from them that after this happened, when some of them were given this indemnity, they themselves, the applicant included could not understand the reason why. And as a result of that there was a discontent among themselves and they petitioned, they wrote the Justice Department and the disclosure that is referred here, is the submission that the applicants made to the Justice Department in connection with the matter. JUDGE WILSON Well it still doesn't answer my question, should we get hold of it, do they want us, because he has referred to it in his application, does he want us to have sight of it? 2A. know/... 167 know where that document is, maybe it's lost, maybe we may never be able to find it. Tell us the things that are contained in that document which have not been covered in your oral evidence so far and which are not covered in the documents you have submitted. MR GCINISIZWE The first thing has to do with the attack on Bareng Letia by Nzimeni's group. Baring Letia was the member of the Executive of the African Youth Congress and he later became the executive member of the Executive Youth League after the ANC-. Baring we took him after having made efforts of having to make peace meetings between us and Nzimeni, because our perception that we were trying to explain to Nzimeni the transformation from SAYCO to African National Congress Youth League. After that we sent Baring to the police station to go and lay charges against this group and he did so and he lay charges against Nzimeni and his group, and no arrests were ever made and Nzimeni and the other people who assaulted Baring. The second one relates to the issue of Violet. Violet was a member of ANC Womens' League, she was attacked by Nzimeni at her house. Apparently if I remember clearly, Violet was pregnant then and after they have beaten her up and harassed her and it seems she got a miscarriage due to that and no arrests were made in respect to that after that event. And due to intervention of Mary Agnes she discussed it with the Lawyer for Human Rights. After having discussed with the Lawyer for Human Rights that they must try and follow this issue for Nzimeni regarding Violet's issue, two people were arrested, and after that they were given lenient sentences of two years each after all the things that they did to Comrade Violet who was an active of the ANC Womens' League. 2A. Those/... 168 Those are some of the things that I remember clearly that we never showed them in this document. By not showing them we thought that maybe the Justice Department would have forwarded the documents already buffer the Amnesty Committee. QUESTION Are you now satisfied that we have now covered those issues, at least those that you can remember? MR GCINISIZWE Ja I think the one other thing that's important here is that we were not happy to leave our parents behind, our sisters and our brothers. We were forced by Nzimeni and the situation in the location there that we ran away from our homes to stay in other places. Mary Agnes' house was our political base. We couldn't have workshops that were organised by the ANC branch in our location.We could not recruit members to join ANC and as an executive member of the ANC, that was my responsibility of recruiting people to join the ANC. We could not go forward with all these activities because of fear and because of Nzimeni's terrorism because he was targeting activists and he harassed our parents, telling them how much he wants our heads.He went to Comrade Siabongasen, Comrade Frans, Comrade Medhlamini. We couldn't just go on our own at this age, but I had to have marshals all the time, there was no privacy in my life at all, (..indistinct) activities and other comrades as well. Mary Agnes was working in West Vaal Hospital. She had to be escorted every day to work to make sure that her transport was safe. These are some of the things that we covered in our motivation that are not in this briefing. ADV CHRIS DE JAGER Did you give evidence at your trial? MR GCINISIZWE Yes I did. ADV CHRIS DE JAGER Tell the Court the same story that 2A. you've/... 168 you've told us this morning? MR GCINISIZWE The thing that we were concentrating in court ...(intervention) ADV CHRIS DE JAGER No please answer my question, did you tell the same story or not? That's the question, yes or no? MR GCINISIZWE Yes we did tell the Court, but some of the things, they were not relevant to our trial at that moment. ADV DE JAGER All I want to enquire whether you told the Court the whole truth or whether told another story, and we're not looking at your guilt or trying to re-try you now, we only want the truth today and we want to know whether the truth you're telling today corresponds with what you said at the trial. MR GCINISIZWE In court I explained to them about the role that I played, but I didn't mention that I found myself guilty because of not having stopped the comrades for beating and killing Nzimeni because I was scared that I'd be sentenced and I didn't trust courts at that time. I saw courts as instruments of the National Party Government. That's how I recognised them. I didn't regard courts at all. When I appeared in court I was fearing that this National Party Government Court will sentence me. ADV DE JAGER Didn't you tell the Court that you weren't present when this man was assaulted, that you went to Mrs Botman and you gave your watch to her and when you came back he was gone and you couldn't find them? MR GCINISIZWE I did tell the Court that I was there, I was with those people. I told the Court that I'm the one that I spoke with Nzimeni's mother and I told them that Mrs Botman is opposite Nzimeni's house, I did tell them in court. 2A. ADV DE JAGER/... 169 ADV DE JAGER Now did you go to Mrs Botman and left your watch there? MR GCINISIZWE If I remember clearly, yes I did. I told them in court that I left my watch in Mrs Botman's house. ADV DE JAGER When you went back to fetch your watch and you came back and there was nobody there and you only found a person lying next to a Combi later in the afternoon? MR GCINISIZWE Yes I told them so, and as I say, the things that I said in court, I was trying to protect myself fearing that I will be sentenced. I tried by all means that I should be on the safe side. JUDGE WILSON Were you represented by an advocate at your trial? MR GCINISIZWE Yes we had. JUDGE WILSON Did you tell him the truth? MR GCINISIZWE Yes we told him the truth. JUDGE WILSON That you were there when the killing took place? That you watched it, did you tell him that? MR GCINISIZWE Yes I told him. JUDGE WILSON And then he led you to give evidence saying you weren't there, you were at Mrs Botman's, is that what you say? MR GCINISIZWE Yes because we did consult with him and he did advise us what are the things to say so that we should be on the safe side and not be sentenced. We did consult with him. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? ADV MPSHE Yes Mr Chairperson. Mr Gcinisizwe, in your evidence you testified to the effect that Nzimeni came back in a Combi and threw explosives at Mary Agnes' house. Did 2A. you/... 170 you witness this? MR GCINISIZWE Yes it is so. ADV MPSHE Now can you tell the Committee why was it necessary for the marshals to stay at Mary Agnes' house, the marshals? MR GCINISIZWE Firstly, Mary Agnes was targeted by Nzimeni, she was highly threatened by Nzimeni and she was told that he wants her head and even the marshals, we were staying there in order to protect ourselves because we knew that we would be able to protect ourselves if they attacked us there, and we were to protect Mary Agnes as well who was very prominent in our location at that time. ADV MPSHE Besides the ANC activists being targeted, were other people who were not ANC also targeted by Nzimeni's group, or attacked? MR GCINISIZWE I'm not aware about being targeted but I know that there were people that were terrorised by this group but who had not been members of the ANC and who were not prominent in the ranks of the ANC. People in the squatter camps and that is why their cases were being referred to the police station, so that the police should be the ones to take action against Nzimeni. ADV MPSHE The activists and non-activists, who were most targeted by Nzimeni's group? MR GCINISIZWE Everybody was targeted. We did everything in defence of ourselves and defence of our membership and defence of the community as well. The Civic Association had political ties with certain structures that were political and it's for protecting the community in general. We had to defend ourselves, our members and our community. ADV MPSHE: I will repeat my question. Between activists 2A. and/... 171 and non-activists, who were most targeted by Nzimeni's group? MR GCINISIZWE The most targeted were ANC members, ANC activists, I am sorry. ADV MPSHE You have just commented Nzimeni told you that they were KUYOB or called themselves KUYOB or KUYOC, what was that? MR GCINISIZWE KUYOC is the Kuma Youth Congress. After the formation of the ANC Youth Congress in 1985, if I remember well, all locations that were affiliated to SAYCO, they were calling themselves according to their location, like for instance, if you are in Kuma its Kuma Congress, if you are in Ganana it's Ganana Youth Congress in that era of 1986. After the unbanning there were other developments between SAYCO that all locations that are affiliate to SAYCO, should say South African Youth Congress Kuma Branch. They must identify themselves as branches under South African Youth Congress and that is where KUYOC came from. When he calls himself a member of KUYOC, he's believing in things that were done in 1986, things that were done in the violence then, properties being burned down. He was believing in that era, he's a member of KUYOC and they were also claiming that Comrade Muganyo Raymond Elij(?) who was in jail then serving a seven year sentence in public violence, we chose him as our president of the South African Youth Congress and they were claiming that he was their president, and we had to clarify that. ADV MPSHE Now you testified further that Nzimeni was an informer and he was informing for Mr de Kock and Mr Pretorius who are police officers. What made you come to this conclusion? 2A. MR GCINISIZWE:/... 172 MR GCINISIZWE The thing that made us to come to that conclusion is because of the revelation by Charles Mhlambiso stating that him and Nzimeni were spies and he himself, he is an interpreter between Nzimeni and de Kock and Pretorius in their meetings that we were not aware where they're being held. That's one of the things that made us to believe that Nzimeni's working with the police definitely. ADV MPSHE If you know what were the ranks of the two police officers, de Kock and Pretorius then? MR GCINISIZWE I don't remember, I can never know. I disregarded their ranks. ADV MPSHE Would you say they were senior police officers? MR GCINISIZWE I can never know because about ranks I'm not aware. ADV MPSHE Did you know these police officers yourself? MR GCINISIZWE Yes I knew de Kock and Pretorius. Yes I knew them both. ADV MPSHE How did you come to know them? MR GCINISIZWE De Kock beat Mary Agnes at her house during the State of Emergency 1990 and Mary Agnes laid a charge against de Kock. Therefore de Kock came back after some time after that charge that was laid by Baring Letia who was beaten up by Nzimeni stating that attorney general in those cases, regarding those cases opened by the two comrades, Mr Baring Letia and Mary Agnes Kuma, and therefore I knew him personally. And at one stage he banned comrade Mary Agnes and Comrade Steven Geme, who was just come back from prison then, he was a member of the executive of the youth. He banned them to address not more than ten people. That's how I know de Kock. Furthermore there was a march that was organised by the comrades in the location to the police 2A. station/... 173 station. I think it was 1991 after all these things in the location. De Kock instructed policemen that were present they must shoot these marshals with tear gas and everything. I just arrived from the location, I got the report by Mr Mkontwana who tried to intervene in the confrontation between the police and the comrades. ADV MPSHE Where were these two police officers stationed? MR GCINISIZWE I'm not sure. Police move around. Sometimes they're in Klerksdorp, sometimes in Stilfontein, wherever there's activities, wherever the ANC is. I once saw him at a funeral in Maraisdal, they were there both of them. Wherever there were activities that were strong by the ANC particularly, they were always there. ADV MPSHE No further questions. MS SISI KHAMPEPE Mr Gcinisizwe, in your motivational statement which is attached to your application you have stated that you were informed by some defectors from the Nzimeni group of that Nzimeni was conniving with Mr de Kock and Mr Pretorius. You have only managed to indicate so far the name of Mr Mhlambiso, is he one of the defectors who informed you of this information? MR GCINISIZWE Yes, the one other person who, it was Kumbeni, the one who ran away the 30th of October 1990, when we caught him and we took him to Mary Agnes' house, and he also confirmed the collusion between de Kock and Nzimeni. They were never arrested these people, even when we took them to the police. CHAIRMAN Yes thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED 2A. MR MPSHE/... 173 MR MPSHE Chairperson, I intend calling the next witness, Patrick Umkontwana. Patrick Umkontwana will be giving his evidence in Xhosa. PATRICK UMKONTWANA (sworn states) QUESTION Chairperson I wish it be put on record that the statement by the applicant before you is similar in contents in the statement of the previous applicant and therefore I do not intend to let him repeat what was repeated by the first applicant. Patrick, the application before this Committee for amnesty relates to the act of murder and attempted murder on the 31st of October 1990. Murder, it's the death of Nzimeni and where Charles Mhlambiso was almost killed. What the Committee would like to know from you is the actual role that you played. Did you kill Nzimeni? MR UMKONTWANA I will start by saying, on the 31st of October 1990, it was in the morning, we went out as comrades going to look for Nzimeni and them. That was the day after the 30th in 1990. I can mention comrade Frans Masike, Albie Fasie, Shepherd Charlie, Solomon Mangew, Cqemisiswe Llandwa, Mishak Popane, Andrew Muloto and others. When we arrived at the taxi rank we were looking for a taxi that was transporting Nzimeni and his group. We got to the driver, it was a Combi belonging to Mr Makasi, W E Makasi. CHAIRMAN I think some of this evidence has already been led. I think you must ask him not whether he murdered, whether he took part in the murder of the deceased, and ask him how or what was his part. QUESTION Patrick, we, when I addressed this Committee before, I said I intend not making you repeat what your co-applicant had already said. Only in a nutshell, we know 2A. already/... 174 already that you went hunting for Nzimeni but let's come to the time that you found Nzimeni. When Nzimeni was being stabbed with pangas, stoned, you were present there, isn't it? What role did you play there? What did you do? JUDGE WILSON I don't want to interfere, but as I understand it, there was an earlier crime that he was convicted of, that's the attempted murder and he's asking for amnesty for that too, so I don't think you should cut him that short. QUESTION Chairperson I'm leading the applicant on the question of murder. He will be led as well on the attempted murder charge. JUDGE NGOEPE I think what my brother is saying to you is that if my impression is correct, the attempted murder was committed first and then the murder later, and to take the witness and make him jump around like that, he's going to get confused. So let him narrate the events in sequence, in the order in which they came. If I'm correct in thinking that the attempted murder was committed first, let him start with first things first to avoid him being confused. QUESTION Chairperson I will accept the directions from the Committee. Patrick, then I will ask you then to revert back to the taxi rank to the instance where Charles Mhlambiso was found. Then what happened? MR UMKONTWANA The first person to saw Charles was Ranka Solomon. He pointed at Charles Mhlambiso, and then we ranked what's his direction. I was the first person to reach where he was and I grabbed him. I said Charles, tell me what are you guys doing? And he said to me, what are you talking about, my brother? And other comrades came and on their arrival I was still holding him with my hands and they 2A. started/... 175 started beating him. And this thing troubled me because matters seemed to be getting very difficult, and I pushed him into furrow, trying to save him and the comrades followed, they got into the furrow and they assaulted him in that furrow. And Pina Tlandsizwe Tlanjwa came out and then we helped each other, we stopped the comrades not to carry on with this act. Charles was already poured with petrol and we asked Solomon and Mututuzeli Luma to take Charles Mhlambiso to the police station. They took him, they left with him, they took him to the police station. QUESTION Did you do anything to Charles other than pushing him? MR UMKONTWANA Besides grabbing him and pushing him into the furrow, there's nothing else I did. JUDGE WILSON And that was done to save him did you say? MR UMKONTWANA Yes. (Tape 2A ends). (Start tape 2B day 3) QUESTION ....then pushed him into the furrow. When you grabbed him the first time that was not to save him. To save him was when you pushed him into the furrow. Am I right? MR UMKONTWANA Can I please repeat that? QUESTION You were the first person to grab him, at that stage there was no question of saving him, you were just grabbing him. And then he got assaulted and then you pushed him into the furrow. By pushing him into the furrow, you were trying to save him? MR UMKONTWANA Yes. QUESTION Let's move to the question of murder. How did then you come to Nzimeni and what happened to him, what role did you play there? 2B. MR UMKONTWANA:/... 176 MR UMKONTWANA I didn't do anything even in his killing. QUESTION What is there that you saw happening to Nzimeni in your presence? MR UMKONTWANA Would I start just at the back so that I can bring facts. After Charlie was taken to the police station we were now left with another problem which is Nzimeni. Tqhina got into Nzimeni's yard and I was following him and the mother to the deceased asked where is Nzimeni. And then the answer was Nzimeni fled. Tqhina went out of the house with the mother of the deceased, they were using the front entrance, and I was following them. As I was still waiting the mother to the deceased came back, I don't know where she was coming from but she was using the other street, Dingaan Street, and she got into the yard and she used the back entrance and then I followed her. Every time, or all the time I was under the impression that Nzimeni was not present, he fled. My home was very close to Nzimeni's home. She was moving at the front and I was behind her, and she got into her house and she jumped fences, she was running, I don't know which direction she was taking and as I was walking I heard a noise behind me, and as I turned I saw a group of people using the passage that was leading to the taxi rank and I said, let me follow, and then I followed. That is where I saw Nzimeni being assaulted, being stabbed with iron bars, everything was on his body and he fell at the taxi rank site and that was the end of him. QUESTION Who did you see assaulting Nzimeni? Can you mention, name them? MR UMKONTWANA Frans Masike, Bulelane Ngoloma, Shephard Charlie, Albie Fasie, Baring Letia and others whom I cannot remember their names. 2B. MR MPSHE:/... 177 QUESTION Patrick, the impression conveyed to this Committee is that you did not take part in the two acts. Can you then elaborate or explain, what do you think then why were you convicted for the two charges? MR UMKONTWANA I was arrested and I appeared before the court of law and I gave the evidence that I'm giving you now. But I was sentenced. QUESTION The question is why do you think you were convicted? MR UMKONTWANA I don't know but I think it's because I was a leader in the youth organisation in the township. QUESTION What leadership positions did you occupy in the South African Youth Congress Kuma Branch and the ANC Youth Congress? MR UMKONTWANA I was the publicity and media officer for the SAYCO Kuma Branch in 1990, and when it was transformed to the ANC Youth League, Stilfontein Branch I was still their publicity media officer. In 1991 I was elected to be the chairperson. QUESTION At the time of the assault of Nzimeni, do you think or would you say that had you had the necessary muscle at the time or the power at the time, to could have saved him from the mob or from the people that you mention to have assaulted him? MR UMKONTWANA The powers were there to intervene but the anger of the people would have never been stopped by those powers. QUESTION But you think that had you intervened or showed an attempt to intervene you would have probably saved the life of Nzimeni? MR UMKONTWANA I think so. 2B. JUDGE WILSON:/... 178 JUDGE WILSON Were you there when they were attacking him? I understood that you saw them going down a lane and that you followed and when you arrived they were stabbing him and he died? MR UMKONTWANA I said I was following them as the action was taking place. JUDGE WILSON I ask you were you there when they started attacking him? Did you see the beginning of the attack? Because that's not what you told us a short while ago. MR UMKONTWANA When they started assaulting him I was not there. From the passage to the taxi rank I saw when he was assaulted. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. QUESTION Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE No questions Mr Chairman, thank you. JUDGE NGOEPE I don't expect of you to give us in detail the evidence that was led against you and I have heard you as to what you have told us that you did not take part and the like. But did people during your trial testify and say you did take any part? MR UMKONTWANA Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE What did they say you did? MR UMKONTWANA There were many people giving evidence, I forgot some of the evidence but the mother to the deceased said I finished him off. JUDGE NGOEPE What does that mean? MR UMKONTWANA When she was giving her evidence in court the mother to the deceased said, other people were stabbing him and I came from wherever I came and I said they were not doing anything to him, and I took a knife from a person and 2B. I/... 178 JUDGE NGOEPE And of course you did not agree with that? MR UMKONTWANA Yes I did not agree with that. CHAIRMAN Is the position that the mother of the deceased only arrived at the scene only some time after he had been attacked? MR UMKONTWANA I do not know whether she arrived at the place of the incident. CHAIRMAN Did you not see her there? MR UMKONTWANA Not at all. MS KHAMPEPE How many people participated in the attack on Nzimeni? MR UMKONTWANA I won't be very specific with the number but there were many. MS KHAMPEPE Were they all members of the, were they in the Executive or in the leadership of the Youth Congress? MR UMKONTWANA Some were in the Executive and some were just ordinary members. MS KHAMPEPE So it was a large group? MR UMKONTWANA It wasn't big, that large group. It wasn't even more than 50, not even more than 30. MS KHAMPEPE When Nzimeni was assaulted were you within a reasonable distance to have been able to stop the fight when he was initially assaulted? MR UMKONTWANA I can say yes. JUDGE WILSON Were you then in his mother's house at that time? MR UMKONTWANA What time are you referring to Sir? JUDGE WILSON When they started assaulting him? I understood you followed his mother into her house, and then 2B. you/... 179 you saw people in the lane. MR UMKONTWANA That's not what I said. JUDGE WILSON Didn't you say the mother came back, she used the back entrance into the yard and I followed her? MR UMKONTWANA I said so. JUDGE WILSON I believe the deceased was not there that he'd fled from the house. MR UMKONTWANA That I mentioned. JUDGE WILSON You then said my house was nearby. And the mother then went across yards, jumped across the fences. Do you remember telling us that? MR UMKONTWANA Can I please repeat my statement? I didn't say that. JUDGE WILSON What did you say that she did there? MR UMKONTWANA What I said was, as we used the back entrance following the mother to the deceased, we used the street that I stay in and she got into the other yard and she jumped the fence, I don't know where she was going to, and as I was on the way I heard a noise and immediately I turned back, and that is when I saw what was happening. JUDGE WILSON They were attacking him in the lane? MR UMKONTWANA Yes. ADV DE JAGER Wasn't the deceased hiding in his mother's house and wasn't he taken from his mother's house into the street? MR UMKONTWANA I do not know. ADV DE JAGER Wasn't that the evidence at the trial? MR UMKONTWANA That was the evidence I gave. ADV DE JAGER The evidence you gave.? Or who gave that evidence? MR UMKONTWANA It was not myself. 2B. ADV DE JAGER/... 180 ADV DE JAGER But other people gave that evidence? MR UMKONTWANA If I remember well, it was other people giving the evidence. ADV DE JAGER And they said he was removed from his mother's house and then murdered outside? MR UMKONTWANA I do not know whether they said that. ADV DE JAGER How far from his mother's house was he killed, could you point out or indicate to us? MR UMKONTWANA The taxi rank is situated here where I am and his mother's house was situated next to the stadium where the fence of the stadium begins. ADV DE JAGER I know it's difficult to sort of give distances but could you give us an estimate of the distance? Fifty yards, round about? MR UMKONTWANA It can be a hundred and twenty metres. ADV DE JAGER And was it in the street in front of his mother's house or at the back side of the house? MR UMKONTWANA They used the front side. ADV DE JAGER And is there a street going past his mother's house in the front leading to the taxi rank or what passage or corridor did you speak of? MR UMKONTWANA Can I please explain to the Committee how the house was situated? When you move from the taxi rank, you go up the street to the right direction as I'm sitting, and the back entrance to the deceased's house would be on the other side, it would be on Dingaan Street, but the people approached from Dingaan Street, using this passage that is leading from the taxi rank to Dingaan Street. ADV DE JAGER I see. JUDGE WILSON When you ran after Charles, you say you were the first person to reach him and you grabbed him and said, 2B. what/... 181 what are you boys doing, did you mean to injure him or hurt him in any way when you grabbed him? MR UMKONTWANA The intention was to take him to the police. JUDGE WILSON And he called you, brother, then. Is that so? MR UMKONTWANA Yes it is so. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. JUDGE NGOEPE Well you have told us that is what you effectively said during your trial that you only grabbed him and then next thing was that you pushed him into the furrow to save him. When you grabbed him you must have realised that the comrades, that is all these people that were looking for him were angry. Isn't that so? MR UMKONTWANA I'm not sure. JUDGE NGOEPE What do you mean, you were there? You were with them? You are the person who should be in a position to can tell the mood of the comrades. Why they went out looking for somebody. MR UMKONTWANA As they were going along there were no signs of anger among the comrades at that moment. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you not realise that once you grab him emotions may run high and he might be assaulted? MR UMKONTWANA No I never did. JUDGE NGOEPE Isn't that what the court found? If you can't tell me say so but I'm trying to figure out why you could possibly have been convicted, on your version. Didn't the Judge say to you when you caught this man, you realised the people were angry, you must have realised they were going to assault him, didn't the Judge say that? MR UMKONTWANA I don't remember clearly him saying that. 2B. JUDGE NGOEPE:/... 182 JUDGE NGOEPE I thought you would because that was quite a critical stage in your life. Thank you. CHAIRMAN When you grabbed hold of Charles you knew that the comrades carried arms. MR UMKONTWANA Yes I knew. CHAIRMAN And you must have known that they intended using those arms, did you not? MR UMKONTWANA No. CHAIRMAN What did you think they were going to do with these arms? MR UMKONTWANA We were always armed. It was pangas and kerries and iron objects. It was quite clear then that the situation in the location is not so conducive any more. CHAIRMAN So you all walked around walking with these deadly instruments without any intention of doing anything wrong? MR UMKONTWANA We would use them if the need arises. CHAIRMAN I thought people arm themselves because they know that the need has arisen for them to take arms. MR UMKONTWANA That's correct. JUDGE WILSON Is it correct that you were looking for Nzimeni, the deceased that morning when you went to the taxi rank? MR UMKONTWANA Nzimeni and the group. JUDGE WILSON Nzimeni was the main target, he was the man who had thrown the bomb, the explosive? MR UMKONTWANA Yes it is so. JUDGE WILSON You wanted information from Charles and other members of the group as to where to find him? Is that so? MR UMKONTWANA May you please repeat your question? 2B. JUDGE WILSON:/... 183 JUDGE WILSON You wanted to find out from Charles or from other members of the group where to find him, where he'd gone to, you thought he'd gone somewhere, didn't you? MR UMKONTWANA No it's not so. JUDGE WILSON Why did you go to the taxi rank at all? Why didn't you just go to his home, it was just around the corner? MR UMKONTWANA At the taxi rank the main thing that we were looking for was the driver of the Combi who was, who had transported Nzimeni's group, so that he should tell us exactly where did he drop them off. Then we could take it off, then to try and go and find them wherever he dropped them. JUDGE WILSON You didn't think it worthwhile going to his home first? MR UMKONTWANA It would be easy but it's just that the thought came that we should start at the rank first. JUDGE WILSON Was that the real reason for going to the rank or were you trying to stir up trouble for him? You didn't just talk to one taxi driver did you, you talked to them all? MR UMKONTWANA Whilst we were talking to this taxi driver for this Combi, the other taxi drivers came closer. We could not chase them away because it was also affecting them as well. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. CHAIRMAN After Charles was assaulted he was taken to the police station, was he? MR UMKONTWANA Yes it is so. CHAIRMAN Were you one of those who told the police that you had assaulted him? 2B. MR UMKONTWANA:/... 184 MR UMKONTWANA No I'm not. CHAIRMAN Did you take him to the police station? MR UMKONTWANA No I never did. CHAIRMAN So Charles was badly assaulted, he was taken to the police station. What was the purpose of that? MR UMKONTWANA The decision of the meeting held that day or any of these members that would be found would be taken to the police station. So we were caring out that decision. CHAIRMAN So the decision was that they should be beaten up first before they were taken to the police station? MR UMKONTWANA No that was not the decision. ADV DE JAGER Was Charles beaten up in order to discipline him? MR UMKONTWANA I don't know why did the comrades beat him up, whether to discipline him or not, I'm not sure. JUDGE WILSON They meant to kill him didn't they, they poured petrol on him? Is that not so? MR UMKONTWANA Yes it is so, they did pour petrol over him. ADV DE JAGER At the trial was it disclosed to the Judge that they wanted to discipline him or that they, what the intention was or the purpose of beating him or killing the other one? MR UMKONTWANA I don't remember clearly, but I don't think we did say that he was being disciplined or not. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Gcinisizwe Umkunjana, on that day at the meeting at Mary Agnes' house, where a resolution was taken that Nzimeni and his people must be located, found and taken to the police station, there was a delegation which was appointed, were you part of that delegation? MR UMKONTWANA Yes I was. 2B. QUESTION/... 185 QUESTION Thank you Chairperson. Patrick, was there, or there was connection between Charles and Nzimeni, isn't it? MR UMKONTWANA Yes it is so. QUESTION And this Nzimeni is the one that you allege in your statement that he was in a way, if I summarise it, hampering and terrorising your activities and the populace in Kuma at large, isn't it so? MR UMKONTWANA It is so. QUESTION Naturally as the political organisation your agenda will be the one of politics. Would you say now after that this background given about Nzimeni, that his conduct was in opposite, it was in hinderance of your organisation's political activity? MR UMKONTWANA Yes it is so. QUESTION Patrick I want you to respond to this one, to the Committee. Say you are granted the opportunity of meeting the mother of the deceased and have a personal talk with her in regard to what happened to her son, what will you say to her? MR UMKONTWANA To the mother of the deceased I would ask for forgiveness, because I was not successful in saving his, her son's life. I tried but I couldn't get it right. JUDGE WILSON Why didn't you do that at the time? (TAPE 2 DAY 3 ENDS) (TAPE 3 DAY 3 STARTS) QUESTION Would you say the same will apply as well to Charles Mhlambiso. MR UMKONTWANA I'll do the same thing. QUESTION Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED 3A. <U>CHAIRMAN /... 186 CHAIRMAN This may be a convenient stage to adjourn. We will resume at two o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ADV MPSHE Chairperson, the next applicant is Popane Musiwa Mishak. Popane Musiwa Mishak Chairperson will give his evidence in Tswana and Sotho. Can he please be sworn in? POPANE MUSIWA MISHAK (sworn states) QUESTION Chairperson, also in this instance, for record purposes the statements, motivations thereon, are similar to those of the first two applicants. I therefore will not take the applicant to repeat what has already been said here. Mr Popane, what leadership positions did you occupy in the Youth Congress of the ANC in Kuma during the period of '90, 1990? MR POPANE As from 1990, I was an additional member of South African Youth Congress. Then again I became an additional member in the African National Congress Youth League. QUESTION You know already that the acts that you are now asking this Committee to grant you amnesty on, it is the one of murder of a certain Mr Mzimeni and the assault on Charles Mhlambiso. I am going to start with this act of attempted murder on Charles Mhlambiso. Did you as Mishek Misowa Popane, assault Charles Mhlambiso on the 31st of October 1990? MR POPANE Yes. QUESTION Can you explain to this Committee, how and with what did you assault Charles Mhlambiso? MR POPANE As my co-accused have already explained, we were from Mary Agnes' house going to the taxi rank looking 3A. for/... 187 for the taxi driver, the Combi which transported the vigilante gang. We arrived and talked to the driver who transported these people, then he told us it was not him, it was somebody else. When we were still there we saw Charles being chased by other comrades. I rushed to the scene. When I arrived there, I took the stone and threw at him just in the furrow where he was thrown by Umkontwani, then I hit him with a stone. QUESTION How many stones did you use to hit Charles Mhlambiso? MR POPANE I used only one stone. QUESTION Let's move to the murder of Mr Mzimeni. Can you explain to the Committee the part that you played in the killing of this Mzimeni? MR POPANE Whilst the comrades were entering the house of the deceased looking for him, they couldn't find him there. I went at the back of them when they were all of them out, then I went into the house to look for him. I entered through the window because at the time the doors were opened, then I entered through the window. Then I found the wife of the deceased and a certain lady called Lizzie inside one of the rooms. When they saw me to believe that maybe the deceased is in the house. The way they were acting they were acting suspicious to show me that maybe the deceased is inside the house. They were looking frightened. The wife of the deceased took off the clothes and then he said he should not talk, she will give me. She took off her clothes that I should tell other comrades. As a disciplined member I knew that I didn't come here to have sex with her. I went straight to the wardrobe then opened the wardrobe and then pick him out. Their eyes when they were talking with me, 3A. they/... 187 they were showing me that there is something in a wardrobe, then I went directly to the wardrobe, then I took him off the wardrobe. They tried to plead with me, the wife exposed her thighs, so that I should just keep silent, because the comrades are angry they may kill her husband. Then I took him by the hand then I shouted, then I shouted at the comrades that the person they are looking for, here is he, who is a liar. The first one who arrived first is Frans Masike, he's the one who met with me after I've shouted, then he entered. Then he was followed by other comrades. Then they took him off outside the house, it is then that he started being assaulted, then other comrades came again, some of them were comrade Andrew Moloto, Comrade Rangamanju, Comrade Bulelane, Comrade Coloma, Comrade Charlie, Comrade Albie Fasie. When he went out of the house he was assaulted already. We went out through the door, being assaulted at the time. At the time other comrades were coming again and there were many. Then they took him out, they turned through the passage, to the taxi rank. I was following other comrades. When they were still assaulting him, those which I have already explained about, Comrade Frans was having a knife in his hand and Comrade Bulelane also was having a knife in his hand. They stabbed him on the neck. At the time he was powerless and then Comrade Bulelane were the ones who finished him off. After that other people came with their stones and hitting him. Comrade Andrew Moloto, when he was already finished, at that time he was having petrol, Comrade Moloto sprinkled him with petrol and he wanted to burn him. It was not possible, one of the comrades prevented him not to burn him because he's already dead. Thereafter, then we went to Mary Agnes, at the time 3A. the/... 188 the deceased was dead and the police came, then we went to Mary Agnes' house. We advised the comrades who were seen doing the act to leave. To the wife of the deceased I ask forgiveness what I have done because now she doesn't have the husband anymore. To the mother of the deceased, to Mrs Mazwi, I say sorry because she doesn't have a child any more and because of that I really ask for forgiveness and not forgetting to Charles I ask him forgiveness. As we are now in the time for reconciliation we should forget what has passed. Thank you. QUESTION You mentioned that you went through the window. Was this window open or did you break this window for you to enter the house or the bedroom? MR POPANE The window was opened, everything was opened all the doors were opened, windows were opened. QUESTION We were advised as to the conduct and activities of the deceased here, Mr Mazwi, now I want to know from you as a member of the political organisation at the time, would you say that such conduct of Mazwi was a hinderance to your activities? MR POPANE They were impinging our political activity at the time. Things which he has done, they were impinging on the political activity. QUESTION Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe? ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. The killing of the deceased and the assault on Charles, did it make your organisation attain or achieve anything? MR POPANE I would say his death and assault of the other person did show that there was a sort of freedom in Kuma because thereafter we were able to have our rallies without 3A. any/... 189 any disruptions which happened, and the community were able to walk freely. ADV MPSHE Couldn't that particular freedom and activity have been achieved by other means other than killing and assaulting? MR POPANE We tried to talk with this group. We had so many meetings with the deceased and his gang, trying to bring solutions peacefully, we failed, all the times have failed to reach a peaceful settlement. ADV MPSHE What attempts were taken by your organisation towards this peace settlement? MR POPANE We had so many meetings with the vigilante group, we had a meeting at Vraganelo(?), we had another meeting at AMA Church, where the president of SAYCO was there. We had meetings with the Lawyers for Human Rights. ADV MPSHE At all the three meetings you have just mentioned, were the vigilantes represented? MR POPANE They had their delegation in the meeting. ADV MPSHE Was Mzimeni one of them? MR POPANE In all the meetings we held, he was there. ADV MPSHE In your own opinion would you say Mzimeni and company had some kind of force or authority behind them spurring them to do what they were doing? MR POPANE I would say the way we tried to talk with them you'd see that there is something behind them, there is something to make them to do all those things which they did. It was found at a later stage that these people, there is a person behind them and the person who's behind them is Pretorius and de Kock who were policemen. ADV MPSHE Had you on your own ever witnessed some form of, or any action indicative of collaboration between the 3A. two/... 190 two police officers and Mzimeni and company, any incident? MR POPANE I have never seen any incident except the revelations which were made by one of them whom we have caught when we were, he's the one who talked about that and the other one is, when I entered the SAYCO office, I got a briefing that there were revelations which were made by Charlie to the comrades. ADV MPSHE Chairman, no further questions. ADV DE JAGER Weren't Mzimeni and Charles opposed to any peace talk with the police and working together with the police? MR POPANE Yes they were working together with the police as I said. ADV DE JAGER No my question was, were they, they opposed to the formation of the Peace Accord Group and wasn't that the reason why they broke away sort of, from the ANC? MR POPANE Altogether they were not prepared to bring peace in the location. ADV DE JAGER And were they against the Peace Accord, the Groote Schuur Minute? MR POPANE It shows that because we went to the meetings, in the meetings which we've held we did make some peace accords and they did agree with the peace accord then. Thereafter they cast aspersions to their disagreeing with all the accords we have made. ADV DE JAGER And at the mass meetings, didn't they express any opinion? MR POPANE Their opinions were not exposed or expressed in public. They were just coming to disrupt our meetings. MS KHAMPEPE Mr Popane, I just want to make a follow up on what my committee member has put to you. When Mr 3A. Mzimeni/... 191 Mzimeni or Mr Mazwi attended the meetings which you had as the working group, did he cooperate with the people who participated in that working group? MR POPANE Altogether he was not in agreement and he was not cooperating with all the members. MS KHAMPEPE Yet you would proceed to seal agreements which he in turn would not be able to comply with? MR POPANE For us to have these meetings, we were trying to persuade them to come together to talk and negotiate and the interventions we had from all the offices, particularly the offices from Human Rights, and the ministers were trying to bring us together. MS KHAMPEPE He freely participated in all the meetings. MR POPANE Yes. He was participating in the meetings but he was a kind of a person, in the meeting he didn't have any problem for him to understand whatever we were talking about but the problem is when you go out he would say all what we have talked about, he doesn't agree with them. MS KHAMPEPE His only problem was in implementing the agreements that you would have reached in those meetings? MR POPANE It was his problem to fail to implement the decisions we have reached in the meetings. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry can just ask you something, I don't understand this. There was a working group of which a de Beer, Mr or Mrs de Beer was a member. Do you know that? MR POPANE In the working group, I don't have full information about that because I was not a member of the working group at that time. JUDGE NGOEPE That may be so but I was not going to ask you whether you know details about it. I just want to find out whether these working groups, of which Mr de Beer was a 3A. member/... 192 member, what was the attitude of the deceased towards that working group and it's meetings? MR POPANE There was no meeting where the policemen were present when we were discussing in the working group. JUDGE NGOEPE Well I mean Mr...(intervention). MR POPANE I'm talking about Mr de Kock. JUDGE NGOEPE Well I'm talking about Mr de Beer. One of your co-applicants has told us that there was a working group of which Mr de Beer was apparently a member and that the deceased did not take kindly to this kind of relationship of your organisation working together with the police and you objected against that. MR POPANE The deceased didn't like any kind of relationship with the police. JUDGE NGOEPE And we were told that his objection was that you can't work with people who are our killers. Wasn't that his attitude? MR POPANE He was advancing that kind of an argument. JUDGE NGOEPE He did not attend the meetings of that working group of which de Beer was a member? MR POPANE I don't know of any meeting where there was a working group together with the deceased. What I know, we had meetings where Mr de Beer was not present, it was us comrades and Lawyers for Human Rights and ministers. In the members of the working group there was no such kind of a meeting. JUDGE NGOEPE Don't go too much ahead because I'm trying to clear something. You rush too much ahead and in the end the picture becomes muddled up again. I've now finished with the meetings of the working group of which Mr de Beer was a member. You have just told me that you have no 3A. knowledge/... 193 knowledge as to whether the deceased attended those meetings. I'm leaving those meetings, the meetings of that group. Now I'm going to ask you about, just a minute ...(intervention). JUDGE WILSON Does he know of de Beer being a member of a working group? JUDGE NGOEPE Presumably. Now I'm leaving the meetings of the working group of which Mr de Beer was a member. Now you have told us that your organisation had meetings with the deceased in order to try and bring about some peace, am I right? MR POPANE Yes Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE Many meetings, for example the one which was held under the auspices of Lawyers for Human Rights and so on and so forth, and all these meetings did not produce any results, am I right? MR POPANE Yes Sir. JUDGE NGOEPE To go back to Mr de Beer, were you aware that he was a member of a working group to which the deceased objected, in which the deceased felt you should not participate because you'd be participating with your killers? MR POPANE I was aware because of the briefing from my comrades because as a member of the Executive Committee, my fellow comrades were briefing me in that regard. JUDGE NGOEPE We know that there were certain meetings of the working group in which de Beer was a member which you did not attend, but you at the meetings which you attended, and the discussions of peace which you attended, were your organisation's meetings with the deceased. Am I right? MR POPANE May you repeat your question? 3.A JUDGE NGOEPE:/... 193 JUDGE NGOEPE You did not attend any meetings of the working group in which de Beer was a member, you did not attend that? MR POPANE Not at all. JUDGE NGOEPE The only meetings which you attended were the meetings of the organisation .... (Tape 3A ends) - (Tape 3B commences) JUDGE WILSON Do you know de Beer? MR POPANE I know de Beer by just seeing him because in the marches he was always there. JUDGE WILSON In the what? MR POPANE In the meetings. JUDGE WILSON Meetings? MR POPANE In the meetings, in the rallies, he was always there, to monitor the situation as a member of the police. JUDGE WILSON He was present at your rallies to monitor on behalf of the police. CHAIRMAN I want you to tell me if you're aware of any political differences between your group and the deceased's group? MR POPANE Yes I know that there are differences, political differences. CHAIRMAN Can you tell me what they are? MR POPANE Our differences were, they were saying that we are in cahoots with the police because there was a meeting which was called by local police, after there was a fear that the police houses were going to be burned. They were saying we were in cahoots with the police. The second one is, they wanted to stay as Kuma Youth Congress because those days we spoke of South African Youth Congress, they don't want to take part in those. Even during the transformation 3B. period/... 194 period, they didn't agree to be amalgamated in the ANC Youth League and in that way they were able to disrupt our meetings. CHAIRMAN Was there a reason why they did not want to be amalgamated with your organisation? MR POPANE There was no reason, but they were saying that they want to stay as Kuma Youth Congress. They want to get their own freedom by burning, they want to gain their liberation by atrocities and in that way it was not the good position. The circumstances have changed which didn't allow those things to happen. ADV DE JAGER So in fact your organisation prevented the houses of the police would be burned? MR POPANE Yes Sir. ADV DE JAGER You worked together with the police? MR POPANE There was cooperation between us and the police, particularly the local police. ADV DE JAGER Did you sometimes travel with the police in the police cars? MR POPANE No Sir. ADV DE JAGER Would they have been entitled to think that you were in cahoots with the police? MR POPANE As the local people and the local policemen met to discuss about the fear for destruction of their houses, that may be the reason because they see us meeting with the police to prevent the houses not to be burned. They had problems by seeing us together with the police to discuss that issue. Maybe that is the reason they called us sell-outs. CHAIRMAN Any re-examination? WITNESS EXCUSED 3B. <U>CHAIRMAN /... 195 CHAIRMAN Are there any other witnesses you propose calling? MR ? Chairperson this was the end of the list of applicants, however, I have the intention of calling witnesses in this matter. I have organised that witnesses should attend. Mary Agnes, whose name is featuring prominently and Norma Zotsha Balani. Chairperson I've got the information that as Members of Parliament, they left Mmabatho and they were on their way to this meeting when I enquired. I submit however, that I don't see them here and I will presume that they haven't arrived. CHAIRMAN So what do you propose doing? MR ? Chairperson I'll propose an adjournment for these witnesses early in the morning of tomorrow. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe, do you propose calling any witnesses? MR MPSHE Mr Chairperson, at this moment, I do not have witnesses to call Mr Chairperson. However, I will submit to the Chair a document from the Investigative Unit as to how unsuccessful they've been with tracing their witnesses. Mr Chairperson what I'm going to say now may also take care of our late starting after lunch. I have been in contact with the captain of the police, Captain Fleming, during lunch time I went to the police station to find out if these people cannot be traced in Klerksdorp and he promised that if we adjourn earlier than I can drive with him to Klerksdorp to go and look for these people. I can only be in a position to tell tomorrow whether we've found them or not. CHAIRMAN Who are the people that you are talking about? MR MPSHE It is the mother to the deceased as well as the complainant Charles. 3B. JUDGE WILSON:/... 196 JUDGE WILSON What about the wife of the deceased? MR MPSHE That is one of the persons I have mentioned Sir. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe, the other application of the Van Straaten Brothers is set down for tomorrow as well. ADV MPSHE It is set down for tomorrow, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRMAN To your knowledge, that is going to carry on isn't it? ADV MPSHE It will carry on tomorrow. CHAIRMAN Is there any indication as to whether the members of parliament are on there way to this meeting this afternoon or do you not know that? MR MPSHE Chairperson I got this information from the ANC Northwest from Mr Vuya who took charge of calling them. He advised me during lunch that indeed he did call them and they assured him that they are on their way to this meeting. CHAIRMAN Yes, do you know long it takes to travel from Mmabatho to here? MR MPSHE It's about two and a half hours. CHAIRMAN You see its quite early in the afternoon and we want to try and avoid wasting time. We lose a lot of time in between. Do you think that any point would be served if we adjourn for a short while and maybe on a cell phone you could enquire where they are. MR MPSHE I propose that Chairperson. CHAIRMAN You will call us as soon as you're in a position to do so? MR MPSHE I will do so Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR MPSHE Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson the witness before the Committee is Mrs Mary Agnes Kunwana. Mrs Mary 3B. Agnes/... 197 Agnes Kunwana will give her evidence in Sotho or Tswana. May she be sworn in please? MARY AGNES KUNWANA (sworn states) MR MPSHE Thank you Chairperson. For record purposes, Mrs Mary Agnes Kunwana is presently serving in the North West Provincial Government Parliament as a member of parliament and the steering committee of health for the North West Province. Mrs Agnes I wish to appreciate your coming to this meeting despite within the short space of time, we appreciate your being here. The reason for you being called to give evidence is because we have three applicants this morning who led evidence and who in their evidence have featured your name prominently as the person who was involved at the time, that at the time of their act, they have now are asking this Committee to grant amnesty on. They were housed at your place and the three are, Mr Musiwa Mishek Popane. We have Sindisiwe Gcinisizwe. We have Patrick Mukontwana. Maybe we should start it as follows. These three applicants do you know them well? MRS KUNWANA Yes I know them very well. QUESTION How do you know them? MRS KUNWANA We used to belong to the same organisation, ANC. QUESTION And is it true that at some stage during the period of 1990, they were in fact staying at your house? MRS KUNWANA Yes. QUESTION Can you please give reasons why they were staying at your house? MRS KUNWANA Thank you. In 1990 the ANC Youth League was not yet known as ANC Youth League. It was named according to the township where the people used to stay. So our ANC 3B. Youth/... 198 Youth League was KUYUCO and all these boys, that is the vigilantes and the ANC Youth League belonged to the same camp. They were all ANC members. And unfortunately the police infiltrated our organisation. That is Mr de Kock, Pretorius, and Vermaak. They divided the organisation into two. The other group was the ANC Youth League, and the other group was KUYUCO and the KUYUCO was the one which was bribed by the police. So the police used these boys left and right. They gave them weapons, they gave them drugs, they gave them marijuana, they gave them liquor and they used their leader's house as the office and the police provided them with a telephone, so that they could phone and inform them. And they used to make it a point that people in that house were as comfortable as possible. Every day in the afternoon there was a house which was burned, which was burned on the 16th of June by the youth in our community, which was occupied by one of the police who was also one of the chief movers, who wanted to see us all dead because they did not want the ANC. They used to dump food there and everything and these boys would smoke their drugs and from there they would go hunting for the ANC Youth League. They used to chop them with axes, they used to attempt to shoot them. It was terrible. It was youth against youth. It was Black against Black. And when we called the police, the police used to protect them. They would teargas the Youth League so that these people could get a chance of doing whatever they wanted to do. And as a result, all these boys, the Youth League, the ANC Womens' League, Civic Associations, COSATU, SACP, every organisation, used to stay in my house because whenever we went out we used to be beaten up. When we go to work we used to go in groups. 3B. When/... 198 When the children go to school, they used to go in groups. That's the life we used to live. And every five minutes I was in jail, I was arrested by de Kock and he would tell me that INKATHA is going to burn my house and all those boys who are staying there will all die. But he never made it to that. So to come to the short story of the whole thing, why this boy was murdered. QUESTION Let me interrupt you for a while before we come to that one. Would you now say that your house was being used as some sort of a refuge for these boys that you are talking about? MRS KUNWANA Yes, they used to call it Khoto house. QUESTION Now in your testimony, you made mention of the Youth League boys and the vigilantes and then you further said this KUYOC. Who were these vigilantes? MRS KUNWANA We used to call them vigilantes because they broke off from our organisation and they started being vigilantes. They started fighting us. QUESTION Do you know who were in the leadership of this vigilante group that you are mentioning now? MRS KUNWANA One of them was the late, his name was, I forgot his name. QUESTION Does the name Abednego Mzimeni Mazwi ring bell to you? MRS KUNWANA That is the right name. QUESTION Thank you, you can proceed then cutting the long story short. MRS KUNWANA On the said date, we were all assembled in the house and we had different meetings. We were trying to strategise how we could combat this enemy which is fighting us. Fortunately, whenever the ANC Youth met, we used to 3B. have/... 199 have some people who stand outside to watch for the enemy so that we could be able to combat the enemy when it comes. And as they were standing outside, this very Mazwi with his group, they were in a taxi and unfortunate for them, a second house from my house, it's a spot. So the mine people used to drink there. So they realised that they will not be able to land the bomb which they had, which they were going to use to explode the house, and I understand it was a dynamite. So realising that they would not be able to reach the house, they threw the dynamite out. So the boys who were standing outside, they thought that it was a cricket, so they ran to extinguish the cricket, and the mine people warned them and said, run away, that is a dynamite. It went, I understand it burned until it came to where it should explode. It exploded and fortunately where we were was not affected. It was only the houses next to the place where we were and the electric house, which exploded. But it was not a dangerous explosion because they say dynamite cannot explode that fiercely if it is not put under a rock or something. So after it had exploded the youth was very cross. They went and hijacked the taxis and the people from the mine assisted them. They went all into the taxis to look for these boys so that they could revenge for what thy had done. Unfortunately they could not find them on that night. They came back to the house and they slept and in the morning they woke up without anybody seeing to stop them to do what they wanted to do. They went to Mazwi's place and they found him. They pulled him out of the house to the taxi rank and at the taxi rank this boy was killed by the whole community. Everybody came with sticks, with stones, with everything on him and other people actually identified 3B. their/... 200 their clothes on him. Somebody said, these are my shoes and somebody said, this is my jacket, somebody said, this is my trousers. QUESTION Thank you. To clear up something. You talk of people who used to stand outside and watch the enemy. I want to assume that you are referring to the marshals, isn't it. MRS KUNWANA Ja, definitely. QUESTION If I may ask you in a nutshell, sort of, I believe that will bring it clarity. If, what was the political set-up at the time? MRS KUNWANA It was very volatile. We could not move and unfortunately the police could do anything they wanted to do with us and the press could not report. There was no press reportings. We were tortured by the police. QUESTION Thank you Chairperson. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Kunwana, you testified that these boys were given, that is the vigilantes, they were given drugs and weapons and even a telephone was installed and the leader's house was used as an office, who is this leader? MRS KUNWANA It was his home, the very same Mazwi. MR MPSHE The deceased? MRS KUNWANA Ja the deceased. It was his home. MR MPSHE Was a telephone installed in his home? MRS KUNWANA In his home. MR MPSHE How many marshals stayed in your house? MRS KUNWANA Whew, I don't know. I never counted them, who were many. I say it was ANC Youth League, ANC Mother Body, SACP, COSATU, name it, Civic Association, ANC Womens' League, everybody stayed there. 3B. MR MPSHE:/... 201 MR MPSHE You certainly had a big house? MRS KUNWANA Ja it's a big house. MR MPSHE Ms Kunwana, were any efforts taken by yourself, by yourself I mean the organisation and all its alliances, towards stopping the killings or addressing this a ...(intervention). MRS KUNWANA Ja a lot of efforts were done. We reported first to our local police. Koekemoer was in charge that time. MR MPSHE Was he.... MRS KUNWANA Was in charge of the local police station. MR MPSHE When you say Koekemoer was in charge do you mean ...(intervention) MRS KUNWANA Of the local police station, the Kuma police station. He was the station commander. We reported to him. Seeing that he did nothing, in fact he played innocent, he played it very cool because he was aware that he was in the township. Anything could happen to him. We reported to the Klerksdorp police station. We reported to the Stilfontein police station. We reported to Potchefstroom which is the headquarters. MR MPSHE Do you perhaps know to whom did you report at these other police stations? If you remember the names of the police? MRS KUNWANA Not the names. We always reported to the senior man. We reported to the station commander in Stilfontein, station commander, to the captain in Klerksdorp. We reported to the captain in Potchefstroom, we had meetings with them. We had daily meetings with them, trying to beg them to help us but nothing happened. We went to the Lawyers of Human Rights for assistance. They tried 3B. to/... 202 to mediate for us, in vain. We reported to our regional office, the ANC office, we went to report there for assistance. Well they were also victims, they could not help us. They said they would also be sjamboked and anything could be done to them. We just reported for. We reported to ANC Headquarters in Johannesburg. We went there several times for assistance. They used to talk to us. We reported to the Youth League nationally. They came, we held meetings with them. We had meetings with the police. The police would pretend that they understand but as soon as the leadership goes away the whole thing starts off again. MR MPSHE Now at all these meetings, as you say you had meetings with the police and the Youth Leagues, were the vigilantes also represented at the meetings? MRS KUNWANA Yes they were. And during the meetings they were angels. MR MPSHE They were? MRS KUNWANA Angels. MR MPSHE Oh. (Tape 3B ends)- (Tape 4A commences) MR MPSHE Was the deceased Mzimeni one of the angels in the meetings? MRS KUNWANA We even went to the extent of making him one of the chairpersons for the meetings and on one occasion we made him a secretary so that we show him that we recognise him, but all that was in vain. MR MPSHE Now you testified that there was police involvement with the vigilantes. Now I want to ask you, how did you perceive the involvement of the police with these vigilantes? What came into your mind? MRS KUNWANA We knew that as ANC we were not wanted. What 4A. came/... 202 came into our minds is that they want to destroy us, and destroy ANC. That's what came into our minds and we were prepared to protect our organisation. MR MPSHE Would you say you perhaps perceived the police as carrying out a mandate for some form of authority by getting involved with the vigilantes? MRS KUNWANA Well the authority which was de Kock was also involved in the whole thing. De Kock, we perceived him as the highest authority of the police and fortunately the high ranks are the people who used to come to harass us and the other police at the bottom used to follow. MRS KUNWANA Do you perhaps know de Kock's rank? What was his rank then? MRS KUNWANA Aye I forgot but he was lieutenant or something, I don't know these ranks, he was something. MR MPSHE Mrs Kunwana, as you had numerous meetings with the police, perhaps de Kock also included, would you say de Kock was acting on his own or would you say he was also carrying out instructions? MRS KUNWANA Well I don't know whether he was carrying out instructions or not but all I know is that de Kock used to be the one who used to harass us, me especially. After the meetings he would come during the night and beat me thoroughly, thoroughly, he would beat me. On one occasion he broke the upper flank of my pelvis, on one occasion he broke my ribs. The very same de Kock. He used to beat me that the other police would say, "man wag man, dies 'n vroumens". MR MPSHE Now for these beatings, numerous beatings on you, did you ever lay charges? MRS KUNWANA I never did, because what was the use? You lay a charge, they write out a file and it ends there. So 4A. there's/... 203 there's no use, you suffer for what you are suffering for, full stop. MR MPSHE Now perhaps this may be too simple a question for me to ask you, but I think it has to be asked. What do you think the reason was for the vigilantes for targeting the ANC activists? What was the reason? MRS KUNWANA They did not want us to take power. They realised, in fact the vigilantes were used. They didn't know what they were doing. Up to today they are still unconscious, I'm sure, where they are, because they don't know what they were doing. The police were using them and the police were afraid that we are going to take power. Which indeed we took. MR MPSHE Now you testified further that every five minutes you were arrested or detained. Were you ever charged? MRS KUNWANA Not even once. I was taken to jail and out without even appearing to court. MR MPSHE Were you ever told why you were arrested? MRS KUNWANA All they used to say to me, look, you are a professional woman, you've got your status, what do you want in these things? Why don't you leave these people? Why don't you go and work and leave these people? You've got your everything but you keep on running after these people, what do you want from them? And I told them that I want freedom. I want to be liberated. MR MPSHE In your area there, which were the main political organisations operating at the time? MRS KUNWANA ANC. MR MPSHE Was there any trace of IFP in the area? MRS KUNWANA No. MR MPSHE Thank you, no further questions. 4A. ADV DE JAGER/... 204 ADV DE JAGER What was the age of the deceased, round about? MRS KUNWANA 23, 24, somewhere there. I'm not sure, but he was a young adult. ADV MPSHE The court documents give it as 26, would that be more-or-less his age? MRS KUNWANA Ja more-or-less the age. CHAIRMAN On the occasion when the deceased died, there was another person who had been assaulted in respect of whom the applicants were convicted of attempted murder. Did you know anything about that? MRS KUNWANA I heard it in court. I heard in court that somebody was laying a charge against them. CHAIRMAN You didn't hear about it on the day of the death of the deceased? MRS KUNWANA No. JUDGE WILSON I just want to make sure, this man de Kock, you mentioned, he is not the police officer who has just been charged for the number of charges, is he? MRS KUNWANA You know, I always wanted to know if he is associated with that one or they are relatives, I don't know. JUDGE WILSON He's not the same man, I mean there have been photographs of that man for the last two years. It's not that man? MRS KUNWANA I don't think he's that man. That one is fat. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. MS KHAMPEPE Was this de Kock connected to any division of the police, like the Security Branch? MRS KUNWANA He was a Security Branch, Special Security 4A. Branch/... 205 Branch for politicians. He's based in Uraniaville(?). MS KHAMPEPE And the other members whom you have also mentioned who were policemen? MRS KUNWANA They were also based there. NO RE-EXAMINATION CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. MRS KUNWANA Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRMAN Please. MR MPSHE Chairperson the next witness I intend calling Mrs Nomazotshwa Balani. CHAIRMAN Can you just spell those names? MR MPSHE N-O-M-A-Z-O-T-S-H-W-A. Her surname is Balani, B-A-L-A-N-I. Chairperson, Mrs Balani will give her evidence in Xhosa. May she be sworn in? NOMAZOTSHWA BALANI (sworn states) MR MPSHE Mrs Balani, the reason we decided to call you here is the incident that was being recalled in this meeting was what was happening during the period of 1990 at a township called Kuma, near Stilfontein. We were informed through the evidence by the applicants, three applicants before the Committee this morning that in a attempt to defuse the situation as was existing at the time in Kuma between the youth groups a meeting was at some time held at the offices of Lawyers for Human Rights and at the time, as an employee of Lawyers for Human Rights, you interviewed and you facilitated in fact the meeting between the two groupings. Chairperson, I did not put it on record, the credentials of Mrs Balani, she's the member of the North West Legislature as well, Chairperson of the Agenda Committee and in the Standing Committee of the Health, in 4A. the/... 206 the Legislature. Now Mrs Balani, do you recall these instances? MRS BALANI Yes I do remember. QUESTION Which were these groupings? MRS BALANI These groupings there were two, as the lady has just said, some belonged to KUYOC, some they were ANC Youth League. There were quite conflicts between them and thus they came to our office for Lawyers For Human rights seeking help, and we tried to reconcile the two groups due to the tension. We tried to maintain peace and understanding of development of the organisation, that it's no longer Youth Congress, it's an ANC. We tried to make them understand that, and thereafter the two groups reconciled and then there was peace. On the first day, in the first peace call and thereafter it showed that peace did not prevail again. Another meeting was called again, it was in Kuma. We went to that meeting and there still it was tried to reconcile these two groups and there were discussions held. There it seemed as well that there was reconciliation, only found out that it didn't. The third meeting that I attended, was at night in a creche. It was the very same two groupings. We tried again to talk to them. I remember very well there was somebody from the national office of the Youth League and yet they seemed to be reconciling but yet there was no reconciliation. QUESTION Mention has been made here that on the other group we had people that go by the name of Mzimeni Mazwi. Do you know this person? MRS BALANI Yes I do. He was a leader of the other group, which was calling itself KUYOC. QUESTION In these meetings that you facilitated as the 4Aa. office/... 207 office of Lawyers for Human Rights, was he part of these meetings? MRS BALANI Yes he was a part of all these meetings. QUESTION Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRMAN What was the difference between these two groups? What was the political difference between these two MRS BALANI: What I think happened between these two groups was the fact that a third force involved in these groups, because there was no difference politically, they all called themselves ANC members, but outside the meetings there were these conflicts. CHAIRMAN You talked about this third force. Was it ever identified as to which was the third force? MRS BALANI It was very difficult to identify the third force at that time because people were being used and people were not being aware of the fact that they were being used, so therefore it was not easy to identify it but as an activist at that time I did realise that there is a force involved. CHAIRMAN Yes. Mr Mpshe? ADV MPSHE No questions Mr Chairman, thank you. MRS BALANI Ah good, so can I stand up and go? JUDGE WILSON Can she stand up and go? CHAIRMAN Yes it's amazing that none of them have any questions to ask you. Thank you very much. (Laughter and clapping. WITNESS EXCUSED MR ? Chairperson I have no further witnesses to call in this regard, thank you. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe? ADV MPSHE Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee, 4A. I'm/... 208 I'm still sitting in that predicament of facing the witnesses. The policeman who was assisting me, Capt. Fleming has just sent me a note that he cannot make any head out of what we are trying to do save that we drive now to Klerksdorp and trace those people ourselves. In that regard I'm saying that me first thing tomorrow morning. ADV DE JAGER Mr Mpshe would they not contribute anything on the merits? Do you foresee that they could contribute anything on the merits of this case or would they be called as victims and couldn't they be referred for further investigation to the other committees? MR MPSHE Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee, some of them will just be called as victims but Charles Mhlambiso on whom attempted murder was made may contribute something different to this Committee. Even the woman who was in the house when the deceased was apprehended. MS KHAMPEPE You would be unable Mr Mpshe to tell us until you have consulted with them? MR MPSHE That is why ...(indistinct) that he's waiting for me to go to Klerksdorp. CHAIRMAN Thank you. Very well, that brings to a close this Committee's sitting for the day, we will resume at 09H30 tomorrow morning. Thank you. 4A. TAPE/... 209 TAPE 2B DAY THREE - 11.09.96 CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe. MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman today is the 11th of September 1996. Still sitting in Ikageng Township. Mr Chairman the Chair will recall yesterday I intended calling a witness in respect of applicants whose evidence has already been led, that is Likikhlane, Lebona as well as Busakwe. Mr Chairman I have the witness in the witness stand who is going to be testifying in SeSotho. Her full name is Ellen Dhlamini. ELLEN DHLAMINI (sworn states) MR MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Mr Mpshe could you kindly arrange, we can't see the witness she is in a straight line with the other Committee members. MR MPSHE Thank you. Mrs Dhlamini the deceased Zinzile was your child? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes. MR MPSHE At the time of his death how old was he? ELLEN DHLAMINI He was 16 years old. MR MPSHE According to your knowledge was your child involved in politics? ELLEN DHLAMINI He was a member of the ANC. MR MPSHE Are you telling us he was a member of the ANC? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes. MR MPSHE How do you know that he was a member of the ANC? ELLEN DHLAMINI I used to see him. MR MPSHE Doing what? ELLEN DHLAMINI He was together with the ANC people. MR MPSHE Which ANC members do you know that you have seen 2B. in/... 209 in the company of your son? ELLEN DHLAMINI Many of them Sir, many. There were really many. MR MPSHE I am going to read out names and you must tell me which names can you identify. Do you know the person called Likikhlane? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes. MR MPSHE Have you seen your son in the company of this person? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes. MR MPSHE The other surname is Lebona. ELLEN DHLAMINI No. MR MPSHE The other one is Busakwe? ELLEN DHLAMINI Not. MR MPSHE There was evidence that there was a group called Kofifi(?) in your township. ELLEN DHLAMINI I do not know, I don't have evidence with regard to that story. MR MPSHE According to your knowledge did Zinzile have any relationship with the police? ELLEN DHLAMINI No, not as far as I knew. MR MPSHE Was he staying with you? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes he was. MR MPSHE Were you staying in one house? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes. MR MPSHE You were not here when they were giving their testimony how did your son die, you were not here. ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes I was not here. MR MPSHE But this morning when I was talking to you, you understood how he died? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes I did. 2B. MR MPSHE:/... 210 MR MPSHE We really sympathise with you for the loss of your son but then we want to know how do you feel now? ELLEN DHLAMINI I am not happy at all. If they were telling the truth, you know the reasons why they killed him, up to now I don't know the reasons that led to his killing. MR MPSHE Do you know the so-called Reconciliation, to reconcile, a reconciliation between the people? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes I do. MR MPSHE When we talk of reconciliation between people what do you understand by that? ELLEN DHLAMINI We talk about forgiveness among the people. MR MPSHE These people who killed your son Likikhlane, Lebona and Busakwe, they have come before this Committee to seek amnesty, to seek reconciliation, we want to know your feeling about this application. ELLEN DHLAMINI I understand but they are not telling the truth. You forgive a person when the person tells you the truth, and then you will understand that they have made that act by mistake, but this was not a mistake. MR MPSHE When you say you forgive a person only when the person has told the truth are you telling us that they didn't tell the Committee the truth? ELLEN DHLAMINI No it is not the truth they told the Committee. MR MPSHE Is there anything that you can tell us to indicate what the truth is? ELLEN DHLAMINI I disagree with everything they said. It's not true what they said. MR MPSHE You say it's not true when they said they were taking him to the police camp? 2B. ELLEN DHLAMINI:/... 211 ELLEN DHLAMINI They assaulted him. They didn't take him to the police station. I found him lying on the ground. He was not taken to the police station at all. MR MPSHE I told you this morning and I said to you, I said to you they've indicated that they killed him on their way to the police station. ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes I heard you saying that. I really heard you saying that. MR MPSHE You said he was lying far from the police station? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes it was very far from the police station. It was in the squatter camp area, no police station at all. MR MPSHE When you arrived at the place of the accident was he already dead? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes he was already dead. MR MPSHE What did you see when you arrived? ELLEN DHLAMINI There were stones, there were sticks, there were iron bars. MR MPSHE What else? ELLEN DHLAMINI Those sticks and the iron bars and the stones that were scattered around. MR MPSHE Were there no people? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes people were there, just onlookers. When we arrived there he was already covered with a blanket. MR MPSHE There is another committee in this Commission, the Committee for Reparation where it is necessary. Is there anything you'd like to be assisted with, maybe? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes. MR MPSHE What kind of assistance? ELLEN DHLAMINI I would like to put a tombstone for him. 2B. MR MPSHE:/... 212 MR MPSHE The last thing that I would like to say in your pain if it happens that you meet the people who killed your son and if they try to talk to you will you be in a position to speak with them? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE JUDGE WILSON Has any of these people been to see you up to now to give you any explanation or extend sympathy to you? INTERPRETER The witness doesn't have the earphones on. CHAIRMAN Enquire from her whether she is comfortable please. QUESTION Will you be in a position to carry on or should we stop for a few minutes? WITNESS UPSET CHAIRMAN We will take a short adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JUDGE WILSON Mrs Dhlamini I asked you, you hadn't got your headphone on, whether any of these people who are now asking for amnesty ever came to you to tell you what had happened, to sympathise with you for what had happened to your son? ELLEN DHLAMINI Not even one of them Sir came to me. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman that is the evidence. CHAIRMAN Are there any questions you want to put? JUDGE NGOEPE Only one Mr Chairman, thank you. Mrs Dhlamini the pain that you are feeling we promise you it is the same feeling that we have. The two men that have been referred to are today in prison. Now the question is, if there is any other way to come and meet you to show how 2B. remorseful/... 213 remorseful they are and ask for forgiveness for what they did to you will you ever forgive them? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes I will. JUDGE NGOEPE What is the deceased's date of birth, the year, the month, the year, the month and the year? ELLEN DHLAMINI I forgot the year in which he was born. MS KHAMPEPE Mrs Dhlamini how long have you been staying in Kgutsong? ELLEN DHLAMINI I am not staying in Kgutsong. MS KHAMPEPE Sorry, how long have you been staying in Ganana? ELLEN DHLAMINI It's a long time ago. I arrived there in 1981. MS KHAMPEPE And when to your knowledge did Zinzile become a member of the ANC? ELLEN DHLAMINI I can't remember. MS KHAMPEPE And when did you start noticing him moving with the group of ANC youths, what year was it? ELLEN DHLAMINI I think it was around 1978 because they were arrested as a group. MS KHAMPEPE To your knowledge did he never resign from the ANC? ELLEN DHLAMINI No he never resigned. MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. JUDGE WILSON Mrs Dhlamini was Zinzile going to school? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes, he was schooling. JUDGE WILSON What school was he at? ELLEN DHLAMINI Bathabile school, B-A-T-H-A-B-I-L-E. JUDGE WILSON And where is that? ELLEN DHLAMINI At Ganana. JUDGE WILSON And can you remember what standard he was 2B. in?/... 214 in? ELLEN DHLAMINI He was doing standard five. JUDGE WILSON How was he doing at school? Did he get reports, did you see his reports? ELLEN DHLAMINI He was doing very well at school. JUDGE WILSON Have you got any of his school reports still? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes they are at home. JUDGE WILSON So when you are taken home could you make them available to us? ELLEN DHLAMINI When we arrived at home I'll search for the reports and I'll give them to anybody who is taking me home. JUDGE WILSON I take it she is being taken home Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE She is. JUDGE WILSON We will make sure that they are returned to you. ELLEN DHLAMINI Thank you Sir. JUDGE WILSON And the last thing I want to clear up with you, you say they were arrested as a group, was your son arrested in 1988? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes they were in a group when they were arrested. JUDGE WILSON What happened to the group? ELLEN DHLAMINI They were released. JUDGE WILSON And this was 1988? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes it was 1988. JUDGE WILSON Did he have any other troubles with the police? Was he arrested or taken to the police station on any other occasion? ELLEN DHLAMINI Not at all. 2B. JUDGE WILSON:/... 215 JUDGE WILSON Thank you. MS KHAMPEPE Mrs Dhlamini do you know of the group called Kofifi? Of you aware of its existence in Ganana? ELLEN DHLAMINI I do not know. I don't have any evidence with regard to the existence of such a group. MS KHAMPEPE And you've never heard of that group at all, ever since you were there in 1981? ELLEN DHLAMINI I have never heard anything about this group. JUDGE NGOEPE Did the deceased already have an ID book when he died? ELLEN DHLAMINI No he didn't have an identity document. We just took his register to the police station and he was never given an identity document. No he didn't have an identity document. JUDGE NGOEPE Did you ever hear of an allegation that your son had raped and/or assaulted a woman and tied up her husband? I am not saying whether that is true but I want to know from you whether you did ever hear of such an allegation against him? ELLEN DHLAMINI I have never heard such rumours Sir. CHAIRMAN When you found your son lying dead did you make enquiries as to why he was killed? ELLEN DHLAMINI Yes I enquired who killed him and people said they do not know. CHAIRMAN Nobody knew why? ELLEN DHLAMINI Nobody knew Sir. CHAIRMAN Re-examination? MR MPSHE No re-examination Mr Chairman thank you. CHAIRMAN Thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED 2B. <U>MR MPSHE /... 216 MR MPSHE Mr Chairman that is the evidence in respect of the three applicants. Mr Chairman and the honourable members of the Committee will recall that yesterday I had made mention of a witness by the name of Charles Dhlamini whom I had intended calling yesterday but I do not intend calling him anymore for reasons that he advanced to me, and it was agreed between himself and the now witness that it is the witness who should testify. Thank you. ADV DE JAGER Mr Mpshe I appreciate that you are not going to call him, but is there anything that could assist us which this person knows and which the Commission might be interested in so that we could decide whether we should call him or not? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, one of the reasons why it was decided between the two of them that the mother should testify is that the father did not stay at home. He was coming home fortnightly. He was working somewhere in Johannesburg. So he never stayed with the deceased. He knows nothing about the deceased's activities. Mr Chairman we now proceed into the other three applicants. That will be volume E, F and G. They are in one bundle. (Tape 5B ends) 2B. ADRIAAN/... 217 A VAN STRAATEN ADRIAAN VAN STRAATEN (sworn states) QUESTION Mr Van Straaten, you were born on the 5th of March 1958 in Rustenburg? That is correct. QUESTION Will you tell the commission about your childhood, where you grew up, also about your parents and your brothers? You were nine children, tell us how you fit into this family situation, the whole, where you fit into the nine children? I was born in Rustenburg, I am the third eldest son of seven brothers, and also the fourth oldest child of nine. We lived in Rustenburg for about three years and then we moved to Vereeniging. I lived there throughout my childhood and went to school there also. I finished primary school there. I grew up in a very conservative way, my father was, amongst others, a member of the Ossewa Brandwag. I then went to secondary school. QUESTION May I interrupt you? You say your father was a member of the Ossewa Brandwag. What influence did this have on your education and your childhood, in what way did he communicate this to you? My father taught us that things are right or wrong and that black people should be subjects and slaves, they should be used as labourers. During that time, I saw many times how black people were attacked and beaten, I never knew why. As I grew up in our area, there was also a nine o'clock curfew, after which black people were not allowed in the area. There were patrol vehicles who took people away off the streets who did not obey the curfew, they simply took them away, beat them up, and this is the kind of context in which I grew up. I then went to 1/ secondary/... 217 A VAN STRAATEN QUESTION Did you have a close relationship or a poor relationship with your father? As I said, we had a very strong relationship with our father, it was also a very strict relationship, things had to be right, you simply did a thing the right way or you did not do it. QUESTION Then your father died, how old were you when this happened? I was ten years old when my father died. I missed my father, and the things which I remembered and which I learnt from him remained with me. QUESTION What happened after your father's death, did you stay in Vereeniging? Yes, we stayed in Vereeniging, I went to secondary school. This was a very difficult time, because I missed my father a great deal. QUESTION Then your mother married again? This is true, she married again. We never accepted my new father. QUESTION When your mother married again, these values of your father, was this continued in the context of the new family situation, or what was the approach then? To some extent this was the case, that the same values continued, but not to the same extent as my 1/ father,/... 218 A VAN STRAATEN father, my father was very strict, he simply said a thing once. My stepfather rather preferred just beating one up. QUESTION What was the political view of your stepfather, did he also communicate to you as a child, did he teach you any political views, or in what way did you experience his political principles? My stepfather differed a great deal from my own father. He did not attempt, in the same strict manner, to communicate his political values to us. QUESTION You've already testified that the years you spent at secondary school was very difficult. What secondary school did you attend? I went to the Higher Technical School in Vereeniging. QUESTION You've testified that these were difficult We were very poor, we grew up very poor. As a young man, I never knew what I wanted or what the reasons were for all the various meaningless fights. In standard eight I wanted to leave school to join the military. I applied, I was accepted and I went into the army. I was there for two weeks, but then I was informed that I was not old enough to be in the army, I wasn't 16 years old yet. I then returned to school. I completed standard nine and ten, and then started working at Owen and Chapman in Vereeniging. I started working as an apprentice kettle maker. I worked there for about six months, when I was called up for National Service. I was called up to 8 SAI in Upington, which when I arrived there, in July 1979 I arrived there and started with my basic training. I 1/ completed/... 219 A VAN STRAATEN completed my basic training after about five months and I was then transferred to Kimberley, where I followed a subsequent course in information, as well as a driver's course. After completion of these courses, I was transferred to Second South African Battalion in Walvis Bay. Upon arrival there, we received further information and training and we were then sent to Chavello(?), where we received a further four weeks of training in bush war, camouflage, etcetera. From Chavello, we went to Poha(?) in the Kakoaland. That was our zero base where we received instructions, received our provisions and then went to the base we were to man. QUESTION You said that you received instructions and training. This instruction and training that you received, what was its nature, what kind of training and instructions were these? This had to do with small weapons handling, such as carabans(?), hand grenades and the various kinds of hand arms, as well as mortar training, and sometimes this was only given to certain persons. QUESTION What kind of instructions did you receive? We were already in Ojavelo(?) at the time and in that area the enemy was normally black people. It was difficult to believe this, because in the time in which I trained, they told us we would only fight Cubans and Portuguese in the area of Angola and the other states in that area involved in that particular war. We then went to the base we were to man. Upon arrival there, we built the base, took our positions and we went out daily on patrol. We went on these patrols throughout the area we manned and we learnt that without information from the people, we had 1/ to/... 220 A VAN STRAATEN to use violence to gain information. This is how the situation continued. It was fairly quiet in the Kaokoalands at that time. We mainly took out landmines, disarmed landmines, and such people as happened to be in trouble, people for instance who hurt themselves in the mountains. QUESTION With regard to background, I can understand to some extent that your testimony is being guided to indicate what the person's attitude was. With regard to the detail of that which happened through the course of years, insofar as it does not have implication on this particular deed, we would appreciate it if you could use your discretion to try and prevent this from running too long, so that we can get to the actual facts. For how long were you on the border? QUESTION How long were you on the border in all and when did you clear out from the army? QUESTION At the end of that time you were then cleared out from service? Yes, that was June 1981. QUESTION Could you briefly tell the commission how you experienced your years in the military, what did you take out of this experience? I experienced my military years as traumatic, of my friends died under these circumstances, I 1/ was/... 220 A VAN STRAATEN was often involved in contact situations. During this time, I saw people shot or in one or another way hurt on a daily basis. QUESTION After leaving the military, where did you go, did you return to the Republic? Yes, I returned to the Republic and I then returned to Vereeniging. QUESTION What did you do in Vereeniging? I returned to work in the Vereeniging area. After about 13 months I was called up again to the Vereeniging Kommando, where we continued with patrols and guard duty at various large places. QUESTION What kind of work did you do during this time? I was an apprentice kettle maker. QUESTION Upon your return from the border, with regard to your political ties, what would that have been upon your return, did you join a political party or not? I did not join a political party at that time. Roughly at 1985, I moved to Edenvale. I then did not get involved, but agreed strongly with the points of view of the AWB and their actions, so I attended their meetings, and that's as far as my political involvement went. QUESTION If you said that you agreed with the AWB, what of that which they said did you agree with? I agreed with the notion of Afrikaans schools, own Afrikaans schools, self-determination, and what I mean by self-determination is that white people should be on their own. At that time I did not agree with the mixing of races and so forth. QUESTION Was this a position that you believed in or 1/ did/... 221 A VAN STRAATEN did you not believe in this position? It's not that I did not believe in this position, but this is how I grew up, my feelings never changed all along. QUESTION So roughly in 1984 you went to Edenvale. Between 1984 and 1989, were you continually a supporter of the AWB or involved with the AWB, and how strongly were you involved during those years? I then met a friend, Robbie Coetzee, who was an AWB member. I often went with him, he invited me to join him and my involvement increased during this time. Because of circumstances, I could not join the AWB. They wanted me to gain explosives for him, but this was against my principles. QUESTION You said that you worked at a factory. If you did not work at this particular factory, would you have joined the AWB? Yes, I would have, but my involvement would then certainly have gone further than it in fact did. QUESTION You said that this Robbie Coetzee took you along to place, or you joined him on certain events. Where did you go and what did you do at these particular events? I went with him to meetings, and at a certain point he wanted us to go to a petrol depot at the Germiston/Alberton border to blow it up, but I refused to do this because I was not a member of the particular organisation or any other organisation at that time. QUESTION How did it come that in 1989 you went to your brothers with a plan, what exactly was the run-up to this particular event? This person... 1/ QUESTION:/... 222 A VAN STRAATEN QUESTION Who was this person? This is Robbie Coetzee. Robbie Coetzee then said to me that I should make some plan and that I should start an underground cell of some kind which would then allow me to continue to create amok or to do things which would in some way help to overthrow government or at least take away the attention of government from certain events. I then went to my brothers on the evening of the 17th of June, and I told them of this plan that I had, possibly to take over some place or to do some damage to some or other place. We then decided to look at a particular place where there were also night guards. QUESTION Was this a particular place, or did you just decide to go and look at a range of particular properties? No, we decided in particular to go and look at a number of specific places. QUESTION With regard to the cell that you were supposed to found, could you give us some clearer indication of the purposes of this organisation or cell, what particularly would your purposes have been? To take any particular soft targets or government targets and to destroy these, or even only to damage these. In this way we could have gained the trust of someone and then later on could have had larger operations. QUESTION Who were these people whom you wanted to gain the trust of? As Robbie Coetzee had told me and with regard to his own plans, with which I was never closely involved in, but from what I heard, I did not agree with him. 1/ QUESTION:/... 223 A VAN STRAATEN QUESTION Was Robbie Coetzee a member of the AWB, or what was his involvement? As far as I know, he was a member of the AWB. QUESTION According to you, you then, in June 1989 you went to your brothers and told them about your plan. Could you continue from there, what then happened? I told them of this plan. We went into my vehicle and we drove to a couple of properties. The particular property of Terblanche Transport was the third property past which we drove. I saw the night watchman there. The property was not clearly secured, there was only a chain which served as a gate. The first thought that came to my mind was that it would be easy to gain entrance to the property. We drove somewhat past, left the vehicle there and then decided that Willem and Dawid would first enter the property, with the purpose of tackling the night watchman and tying him up. Gideon and myself then entered the property after them. Upon entering the property, I saw that there were two night watchmen. The moment we came next to them, Willem and Dawid each grabbed a night watchman. I then knocked them over the head with a flashlight. I then told Dawid and Gideon to go and see whether there were any ropes in the property with which we could tie up the night watchmen. They came back and I then gave them instructions to guard the night watchmen. Willem had already moved into the property by that time. I moved deeper into the property and then found him at one of the trucks there. He then told me that this particular truck is right in front of the gate, and that it would be easy for us to remove this particular vehicle. We began 1/ opening/... 224 A VAN STRAATEN opening up the vehicle and to prepare to remove it from the property. While we were busy, I heard a noise, and I told Willem that I would go and see what was happening. At the place where I left David with the one night watchman, I saw that he and the night watchman were struggling. I approached and kicked against something on the ground, which I then picked up and it was the particular, an axe or whatever, with which I attacked the night watchman. I then gave the chisel to Dawid and told him to look after the night watchman. He then told me that he couldn't find any ropes, and I then told him to see to it that the night watchman would not get up again. I returned to the vehicle, where I told Willem that one of the night watchman were now hurt with the chisel. I told him that we would have to hurry up to remove the vehicle so that we could get away from this particular property. He then started up the truck. I returned to Dawid and told him to collect Gideon and open the gate so that we could leave the property with the truck. He went to Gideon and told Gideon to get into the truck with Willem. Dawid then took the chain which served as a gate, he opened that up, Willem and Gideon then left the property with the truck. Dawid and I went in the opposite direction around the block and moved back to my own car. We got into the car and picked up Willem and Gideon where they had left the truck. QUESTION Did you find them at the truck? No, as we approached the truck, I saw that there was a white vehicle next to the truck, I drove past and saw neither Willem nor Gideon at the truck, so I simply drove past and drove away from the truck. QUESTION You said you had this particular plan which you 1/ had/... 224 A VAN STRAATEN With this particular action, in which we failed, we had removed the truck and our intention was to take more than one of the trucks and then to show that the night watch people were not up to the task. QUESTION How would you have brought this under the attention of the owner, that these black night watchmen were not up to the task? Well they would have arrived there, the night watchmen would have been tied up, which was our intention, and the trucks would have been removed off the property. At that time there were also white people who were unemployed, and of these white people had applied for these particular positions, which they then did not get. QUESTION If you're saying they did not get these positions because it was given to black people, or why would you say did they not get these positions? That was my feeling at that time. QUESTION What was your intention with the trucks? The plan was to take them off the property so that it would look like theft, motor vehicle theft. Both of the night watchmen then died and we were scared, so we simply took away the vehicle, so that it would appear to have been a robbery. QUESTION After this crime, what happened? When were you arrested? About two or three weeks after this incident we were arrested, after there was a R30 000,00 amount of reward on my head. After my arrest, they arrested 1/ Dawid./... 225 A VAN STRAATEN Dawid. Gideon then brought them to my house, and they then arrested me. The detectives then wanted to know from me where Willem was. I told them that Willem was somewhere in Pretoria and that he had phoned me so that I could pick him up at the State Theatre. QUESTION You were then all arrested, you and Willem and Dawid, is that correct? That is correct, I was then on my way to Pretoria where I would have shown them where Willem was. On the way there, the detectives wanted to know from me what had happened, whether we were involved in the incident and so on. I then told them that I knew nothing about the incident and that I wanted to make this a political matter and I stayed with this. QUESTION If you said that your matter would be political, what did you mean by this? I meant that the fact that I gave the instructions to my brothers, and the fact that these were black night watchmen at this property, whom we killed, that my political goals were so strong, or were very strong, and that I was against black people. QUESTION If you said that these were your political purposes, what would your political purposes have been? In view of the struggle we were involved in, the purpose was to oppose the government and to attempt to prove that we wanted self-determination, we wanted to govern ourselves. QUESTION Just for clarification, who would the government have been at that time, in 1989? You keep referring to the government which you wanted to oppose, why, what did the government do at that time that you disagreed with? 226 A VAN STRAATEN At that time it was the National Party who governed, I did not agree with their purposes, although there were votes, there was the referendum in 1982, this bore no fruits, the Afrikaner, especially right wing Afrikaners, were simply left in the cold. The negotiations then continued without involving these people. QUESTION You said that when you were arrested by the police, you told them that you would make this a political crime, what was their reaction to this, what did they say to you? Both of the officials were drinking on the way, all of them simply laughed at me and told me that they would lock me up, or that they would send us to the island and that I would never see people again. QUESTION What was this island, did he say what island? He said Robben Island. I simply told him that he could do what he wanted to and that I would keep with my statement. Upon arrival at Pretoria, I showed them where Willem was, whom they then arrested. We then returned to Vereeniging, but I was locked up for about two weeks, and I was unable to contact anyone. QUESTION Eventually you made a statement. After how long did you make this confession? 1/ some/... 227 A VAN STRAATEN some legal representation for me. The thing continued in this vein. He then disappeared and I have never seen him or never saw him for a further six months. One of my other friends then approached me and told me that he knew where Robbie was. I arranged, and on a particular evening I went through, I found Robbie in Orkney where he stayed, I saw him there that evening, he again caught fright when he saw me and told me that I should not panic, but that the matter would be taken care of, and that is all that happened. After a further two - sorry... QUESTION Mr Chair, indeed, I will return to this to clear it up at a later stage, but the initial notion or instruction came from this Robbie Coetzee. The events with regard to the crime, I need to clarify the role of Robbie Coetzee in this regard. You then came into contact with Robbie, did he assist you in any way? No, in no way. After about a year of this case, I never heard anything further from him. When I next heard from him or of him, his sister-in-law told me that he died in a mine accident. QUESTION Looking back on the crime of 1989, what was the role of Robbie Coetzee in this regard? He tried to manipulate me and if I think about it today, he actually exploited me, he abused me and when our case came to trial, I was in the dark, I didn't know what to do, and then I made a confession in which I told what my part in the offence was, and that's where the matter stood, and we were punished according to the confession. QUESTION Now this Robbie Coetzee, what would you say, how did he persuade you to make these plans or commit the 1/ offence,/... 228 A VAN STRAATEN offence, what was his role in the actual planning of the initial offence? JUDGE WILSON(?) ...persuaded him to commit this offence, you cannot put words in his mouth. JUDGE MALL He said he created a cell with his brothers and he told his brothers what they were going to do, Coetzee was not in it. QUESTION I will rephrase the question. This Robbie Coetzee, what role did he play in the initial offence of 1989? As I said, he tried to use me, and he tried to make me a member of the AWB, I didn't want to become a member of the AWB, and that's where the matter ended, he just wanted to use me. QUESTION Right. Now we come to your trial. You say you made a confession and you stood by it? Yes, that's correct. QUESTION Can you remember, at the start of the trial did you plead guilty or not guilty? I made the confession and I later pleaded guilty to robbery, but not guilty of murder. QUESTION Right. You were then sentenced to 13 years? Yes, I was sentenced to altogether 13 years imprisonment for murder and robbery. QUESTION You are currently in the Zonderwater Prison just outside Pretoria, is that correct? Yes. QUESTION And you're in Medium A section? Yes. QUESTION Do I understand you correctly that it is a minimum security prison, that section of the prison? 229 A VAN STRAATEN Yes. Yes, we're not locked up at night, and I have progressed so far that I actually work outside the prison and that's all contributed to the changes that have taken place in my life and you must qualify to be given these privileges. QUESTION If you look back to 1989 and what happened then, what are your views about what happened now? Well, I was still very stupid then and today I realise that negotiations are the only way forward and that violence can never solve anything, and I'm very sorry about the people that died and I'm really sorry about that. QUESTION I have no further questions, chairperson. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe, any questions? Thank you, Mr Chairman. Your father, was he a member of any political organisation? As far as I can remember, he was a member of the Ossewa Brandwag. As I said, I was about ten years old when my father died. Was he a leader in that movement? Pardon me? Was he a leader in the movement of the Ossewa Brandwag? I really don't know. The things your father taught you, such as, for instance, that black people were subservient and that they were slaves, is it correct that what was actually brought to your mind was to actually hate black people? That's correct. And you then decided later on to actually give expression to that hatred by committing this offence? 229 A VAN STRAATEN Could you repeat the question? You later decided to give expression to your hatred through these offences? Yes. As I said, all those years you were just taught these things and it stuck in your mind? I would say that this offence gave expression to these principles and the hatred we felt, and that was passed. You also testified that you were ten years old when your father died. Now my question is, after your father's death, was your father's influence still felt in your life, did he still have some influence on your thinking? Yes, the couple of things that I learnt from him, the things that I saw, that always stayed with me, always stayed in my mind. How strong was your father's influence towards yourself, in respect of yourself? Well, as I said, he was very strict, a thing was either right or wrong, you weren't allowed to put a foot wrong, and he didn't talk much, he beat us quite easily. Were you later a member of any political organisation? Pardon me? Were you a member of any political organisation? No, I was a supporter of the AWB. Now the feelings regarding the AWB's policy, how did you reach these goals and doctrines if you weren't a member, how did you feel about it? 230 A VAN STRAATEN The National Party at the time negotiated quite frequently, but they never considered those people on the far right and some of the objectives pursued by the AWB were own Afrikaans schools, self-determination for white South Africans. My learned friend asked you what was your objective with this offence, what did you actually want to achieve, do you remember the question? Yes. Your answer was, to prove that the night watch people weren't competent to actually do the job. What do you mean by that, that they were inferior people because they were black? No, in that time there were also white people who couldn't find employment, but who couldn't find that kind of work. Do you agree then that what you did, or the motive for what you did had nothing to do with politics? No, the answer which I gave was, as I said, this is the way we were raised, I went to the army, I was taught that our enemies were black people, and that is the view that I wanted to put across. Would it be correct if I made the statement that what you did was not as a result of an order or instruction given by any political organisation, you and your brothers, you planned this and then actually executed the plan? It wasn't done on the instructions of any organisation. This person Robbie Coetzee, who tried to influence me, he told me that I should do a thing like this and then I went to my brothers and I gave them the instruction, and I was the leader more or less in this 1/ matter./... 231 A VAN STRAATEN matter. I'm going to refer you to the supplementary statement which was drafted, paragraph 19, chairperson and members, paragraph 19, page 5, page 5 of the supplementary statement, page 10 of the index. CHAIRMAN Mr Mpshe, you must ask somebody to index your papers so that it corresponds with ours. Right, I'm going to read a little bit of this, paragraph 19, it reads as follows "The commission of the offence was preceded by the following 1. During June of 1989, I approached my brothers with the idea that we should establish a cell or organisation which would operate in the PWV area." My question is, was this cell or organisation established by yourself and your brothers? Yes, it was established and that was our first act which actually amounted to a failure and to an offence. Did this organisation have a name? No, it didn't have a name. Was it known to the public? No, it was just established and just committed this particular act on that night, we were caught and that was it. In other words, yourself and your brothers, you were the members of that cell, that organisation? Yes. I also got these copies from Cape Town, my copies are not indexed, but I'll refer to a letter which he wrote, 1/ I'm/... 232 A VAN STRAATEN I'm going to refer to a letter which you wrote, I don't know what page that would be, I'm going to refer you to a letter and I want you to tell me whether this is the letter that you wrote? MS KHAMPEPE UNKNOWN SPEAKER Is that the letter dated the 2nd of October 1992? That is correct. That is correct, chairperson, I wrote the letter. I'm reading from the second paragraph from the bottom, and it reads as follows "As a result of the fact that the murder was not premeditated, it just arose from pure racial hatred, and the purpose of the struggle against apartheid was aimed in such a way, the death of the two night watchmen was caused." Did you hear that? Yes. Do you agree that the fact that you refer in this letter to the fact that it arose from pure racial hatred, that that once again shows that it had nothing to do with politics? Well, as I understand politics, it was the way I was raised, and in my experience the various races were pitted against each other and these were the consequences. Thank you chairperson, no further questions. Mr Van Straaten, is it not true that you took the truck and you couldn't continue with it because its brakes failed? 233 A VAN STRAATEN No, no, chairperson, we purposely left it behind to make it look like a robbery. Well you don't know, because you weren't in the truck? That's correct. During your evidence at the trial you said that the truck wouldn't move any further, that is also what one of your brothers testified? You see, chairperson, if we really wanted to steal the truck, or wanted to remove it, I would have obtained a qualified driver to actually drive the truck, I would have taken such a person with me. If you really wanted to tie up the night watchmen, wouldn't you have taken ropes to tie them up? Yes, that's correct. Then why didn't you take ropes with you? I told Dawid and Gideon that there were ropes in my vehicle and that's why they didn't take ropes with them. But you were the leader, you wanted to go and tie the guards up and you didn't actually take ropes to do so? That's correct. No, chairperson. Were you drinking that whole day, whilst you were planning the offence? I think I arrived at Dawid and Willem's place at about six o'clock that evening, they were sitting in the bar and they were drinking, and we did drink, but we 1/ also,/... 234 A VAN STRAATEN also, we still knew what we were doing. Yes, no, I assume that, but Dawid and Willem had been drinking since that morning when the bar opened? Yes, that is what I understand. If you wanted to teach the government a lesson, why did you go to the premises of a private company and commit a theft there? Because they apparently transported some government goods. You see, you initially said that your objective was to attack soft targets of the government? Yes, that's correct. And in doing this you deviated from that objective completely, you went to a private property to attack that. What political objective could you have been pursuing by doing this? Because they also transported government goods, across the country they transported various goods. So would you have targeted any private person conveying state goods? Yes, that's correct. Now why was this never referred to as your objective, why did you never say that, "We would have attacked anybody that conveyed goods for the state"? It just didn't come out like that at the trial because we were lay people and with our confession, I thought maybe I would be able to trace Robbie Coetzee and he would be able to assist us and clarify the matter. But you testified in court, didn't you, or was it only your brother who testified? Only Dawid testified. 235 A VAN STRAATEN Now why did you not testify and tell the Court that that was your objective? Because the story didn't quite work out the way we wanted it to work out and I then made use of my right to silence. But if you'd told the Court that Robbie had told you to do this and that, it might have been in your favour, is that not so? That's correct, but at that stage, it was before his death, I just left him out of the case completely to return to him at a later stage, so that he could perhaps help us. Thank you. JUDGE NGOEPE (?): You applied for amnesty. Who filled in the form, whose handwriting is this, is that... Yes, that's mine, Adriaan. JUDGE NGOEPE And you swore that it was the truth? That's correct. JUDGE NGOEPE And there you say, paragraph 11(a) "Yes, I, Adriaan van Straaten, gave the order to kill the two black night watchmen, and I was acting in accordance with my political views." Yes, that's correct. JUDGE NGOEPE That they must be killed? The order was given to tie them up... JUDGE NGOEPE No, did you give the order that they must be killed? You swore in this application that that is what you'd done? Yes, yes I swore that it was the truth, but at that stage we didn't actually know what was going on 1/ this/... 235 A VAN STRAATEN and what was happening and that is why I filled it in in this way. JUDGE NGOEPE Well I don't understand this, Mr Van Straaten, 20th of February 1996, this was when this statement was made, and then you said that you gave the order, you must have known whether you did it or not? As I told you, chairperson, at that stage I was really desperate, and that's the way I filled in the form, and I just swore that it was the truth because maybe it would have been our last chance. JUDGE NGOEPE And you said that, if I understand you correctly, that you pleaded not guilty to murder an guilty to the robbery, is that correct? Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE You also filled in a form, you applied, in terms of section 18 of Act 34 of 1995, to the Amnesty Committee. Do you know this form? Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE There you said that "Murder, to which I pleaded guilty, robbery with aggravating circumstances, to which I pleaded not guilty." Is that not so? I don't know. JUDGE NGOEPE That's page 7. JUDGE NGOEPE Who killed the second night watchman? Gideon must have killed him, because he was guarding him. JUDGE NGOEPE And you didn't hear anything? No, chairperson. JUDGE NGOEPE Is it therefore true that he was also hit on 1/ the/... 236 A VAN STRAATEN the head with a piece of rock, with a stone? What I understood from Gideon is yes, that that is correct. JUDGE NGOEPE And the chisel was also used? I don't know whether it was used on the second night watchman. JUDGE NGOEPE No, no, I think I'm making a mistake there. Thank you. CHAIRMAN (?): You have described yourself, at least then, as having been a supporter of the AWB? That is correct, Mr Chair. CHAIRMAN And I believe Mr Coetzee, Robert Coetzee, was a member of the AWB, like you said? That is correct, Mr Chair. CHAIRMAN And when you committed these offences, you were not in any way committing them in your capacity as a supporter of the AWB? From my point of view, with regard to the situation, he forced me, to a certain extent, to join the AWB, but I refused. Since I agreed with some of the positions of the AWB, I saw myself as a supporter of the AWB. CHAIRMAN You never discussed these offences with him before you committed them? He only told me that I should do something in the Vaal Driehoek, Vaal Triangle area, which I knew well, and that is when we committed this crime. CHAIRMAN You never discussed the commission of these particular offences with him? He only told me that I should hit some target or do some act and then we could see what further 1/ actions/... 237 A VAN STRAATEN actions could be taken. CHAIRMAN He did not know that evening that you were going to take somebody's truck, he did not know that you were going to kill two black night watchmen, he did not know, did he? No, he did not know that we were going to remove the trucks, but the next day I informed him that the two black night watchmen were dead. CHAIRMAN But from your deeds, didn't he? That is correct, Mr Chair. CHAIRMAN That must have indicated to you that at least members of the AWB that you are in contact with, did not approve or support what you did, isn't it, because he did not even arrange legal defence for you? I would not say so, Mr Chair, he tried to play cat and mouse with me and said he would return to me, but then he simply disappeared. CHAIRMAN That's long ago that this person did not want to be involved in this mess of yours? That's then what we deduced, that's how the matter turned out in the way in which it did. CHAIRMAN Out of pure racial hatred, you remember that? That's correct. CHAIRMAN Are you saying to us that you don't distinguish between murder committed through political objectives or motivation, on the one hand, and murder committed as the result of pure racial hatred, you don't distinguish between the two, is that what you are saying to us? That is correct, Mr Chair. CHAIRMAN Are you serious? You are saying that you are motivated, you didn't even say you were motivated by racial 2/ hatred,/... 238 A VAN STRAATEN hatred, you said by pure racial hatred? Because we grew up in this way, I can say that at that time it was difficult to accept the situation. In your letter of the 20th of November 1992, this letter was addressed to Mr Van der Westhuizen, and in this letter you say that racial hatred was the reason for this murder? That is correct, Mr Chair. You remember that? Yes. In your letter of the 9th of January 1993 to Captain Schoonbee, you said the same thing? That is correct, Mr Chair. MS KHAMPEPE In your evidence you have stated that the white people who were unemployed and could not get any position even though they had applied for employment in some of the positions, and in this case we are talking of a company which had been employing two night watchmen who were given a baton and a torch to facilitate their guarding of the premises... That's correct. MS KHAMPEPE Now, are you able to tell us of any white people who had probably approached this company in question with a view of placing themselves for employment as night watchmen? I don't have particular names or witnesses who could confirm this. Do you know if there were any whites who had applied at Terblanche Transport for a position of a night watchman? That is correct, I knew of people, but as 2/ I/... 239 A VAN STRAATEN I say, I cannot give you names or refer you to any witnesses in this regard. Now basically your purpose was that you had to do something that would unequivocally show the glaring incompetence of blacks in their positions of employment. What I fail to understand is, what was so fundamental and unique about stealing a truck of a private concern that would have driven the message home about the incompetence of blacks in this case? With the fact that we would have succeeded in removing the vehicle, as I say it was not the intention to kill them. But would any of the people who had previously applied for positions, would they have been employed by the company, would you have succeeded in getting them employment? I don't know. CHAIRMAN Do you wish to re-examine your witness? QUESTION Mr Chair, I only have two remaining questions to address to the witness. Mr Van Straaten, if this action which you planned and carried out in June 1989, if this had happened in the way in which you'd planned, that you would have tied up the night watchmen and removed the vehicle, would this cell or organisation then have had any particular plans for the future? I would then have continued possibly to register it as a political movement and I might have received further instructions from Robbie Coetzee. QUESTION Secondly, after you were imprisoned, have you had any further contact with the AWB, or did they contact you to prove their support? 240 A VAN STRAATEN On several occasions I wrote to them, amongst others, with the application for exemption which I made at the end of 1992, and on several occasions members visited us in prison, and I received Christmas cards from them. QUESTION A moment please, chair. I have on such a Christmas wish in my possession, is this, if you look at it, one of these cards? Mr Chair, I request permission to hand this to you. This is correct, this is one of the Christmas cards which I received from them. QUESTION I have no further questions, Mr Chair. CHAIRMAN Do you wish to hand this in as an exhibit? QUESTION Yes, chair. CHAIRMAN This card will now be handed in as EXHIBIT A. CHRISTMAS CARD HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A MR MPSHE Mr Chair, it may be convenient to take the adjournment at this stage. CHAIRMAN Ja, we'll adjourn for 15 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS 2/ ON/.... 241 W VAN STRAATEN ON RESUMPTION QUESTION Mr Chair, I'm calling Willem van Straaten next, he is the eldest of the four brothers. WILLEM VAN STRAATEN (sworn states) QUESTION Could you tell the commission, briefly give us the story of your childhood years, where you grew up and the relationship between yourself and your father? You are, I believe, the second eldest of the nine children, is that the case? Yes. I was born in Rustenburg, the 5th of the 3rd month of 1958. We lived in Rustenburg until I was about five or six years old, and then we moved to Vereeniging in the Vaal Triangle. I grew up in a home that was extremely conservative, Christians, and from a very young age it was impressed on me that black people are subjects, that our cultures are not the same. Through the course of time, as I grew up, this impression became all the stronger. With regard to my school years this remained the same, through primary and secondary school years. I finished standard eight in school. QUESTION Where did you go after school? Where did you go after completing standard eight in school, where did you go after that? I worked for a year and then I went to the army for a year. QUESTION Briefly where did you do your National Service? In Pretoria, in Voortrekkerhoogte. That was at 5 Military Works Unit. 5 Military Works Unit was like a construction unit in the army, people who built bridges and roads and that kind of thing. QUESTION Through the course of your basic military, did 2/ you/... 242 W VAN STRAATEN you get basic training? Yes, we had arms training, weapons training, training for border duty and we learnt how to combat the enemy. QUESTION Who would be your enemy? We were taught that black people were the enemy. I spent the last six months of my military service in Bloemfontein, and there I guarded various black prisoners who worked on the army properties. QUESTION On what year did you clear out from army? When I did military service it was only for 12 months. QUESTION So in what year did you clear out from military service? It was the end of 1977. QUESTION Where did you go subsequently, what did you do after your military service? I then returned to the firm where I was doing my apprenticeship as a panelbeater. I served a five year apprenticeship at this firm, and then in 1980 I qualified as a panelbeater. QUESTION What did you do after this apprenticeship? In 1981, because I had worked for the firm for such a long time, I went to look around at other firms, how they went about their business, just to gain a slightly different routine. I worked for two other firms. I was not happy at these two firms, and then I returned to the firm where I served my apprenticeship. At this firm I remained for a number of years, and then I opened my own business. QUESTION In what year was this? 243 W VAN STRAATEN This must have been, say, the beginning of 1982. I then had my own business from that time until October 1986. QUESTION What then happened to your firm in '86? How would I put this? I mismanaged the business in a careless manner and went bankrupt. QUESTION What, at this time, would have been your political views, did you belong to any organisations? I was a registered member of the Conservative Party and a supporter of the AWB, but not a member of the AWB, only a supporter. QUESTION Briefly, what were your political convictions during the years from your qualification, after your apprenticeship in 1983 to '89? We continued to fight for our own volksreg, ethnic self-determination. In my view, every person, because of our skin colour, people differed, their cultures differ, I should live in my own area and they should live in their own areas. QUESTION Would you say that the principles which you learned as a child provided the backdrop against your adult views, with regard to your political views? I would say that we always used these people as slaves, the people to do the dirty work. QUESTION Then in June 1989, your younger brother, Adriaan, came or approached you. Could you briefly explain to the commission what he suggested to you? On the particular evening of this incident, we were sitting around and having some drinks. This was, I don't want to give drink the reason or why I did this, I was fully aware of what I was doing, but on this 2/ particular/... 243 W VAN STRAATEN particular evening we were sitting around drinking and then we decided that we would remove a truck of Terblanche Transport off their property. QUESTION Did you decide there and then, as you were sitting there, to do this, to carry out this action to remove this truck? QUESTION That is Adriaan. QUESTION You may continue. 2/ if/... 244 W VAN STRAATEN QUESTION What would you have agreed to do? We agreed to tie them up. QUESTION You may continue. In the course of the struggle, Gideon knifed one of the night watchmen. QUESTION Let's leave the matter there, what was your further contribution, you had started the truck, what further contribution did you make with regard to this particular truck? Being upset about the one night watchman, because I only knew of the one night watchman at that time, who was dead, I then said to them that we must hurry up so that we can remove this particular vehicle, since the entire matter had turned out unfortunately, as we had not planned. I then entered the vehicle. Dawid had opened the gate. It wasn't actually a gate, but sort of a chain which was serving as a gate. Gideon and I then jumped into the truck 2/ and/... 245 W VAN STRAATEN and I attempted to remove the truck from the property. QUESTION You say that you attempted to remove the vehicle? Yes. Since I had no experience, for instance with the brakes of the vehicle or where its various instruments are located. QUESTION What did you then do with this truck after removing it from the property? QUESTION Is this how things then went, did they come and pick you up with Adriaan's vehicle? No, not immediately. Since I then left the truck some distance from the property, I then waited for them to come and pick me up with the vehicle, but then when I looked in the reverse mirror of the vehicle, I saw unfamiliar vehicle lights behind me, which was not the lights of the vehicle which we used, of the motor car which we used, these were different lights. It turned out to be a bakkie which had round lights rather than the square lights of our car. I immediately noticed that this was not these people. Gideon and myself then jumped out of the left door of the truck cabin and ran into the veld, Gideon in his own direction and I in my own direction. Later that 2/ evening/... 246 W VAN STRAATEN evening we met each other at home. QUESTION If I can take you back to the moment when Adriaan arrived at your home that evening of the 17th with this plan which he suggested to you, what did you intend, what did you understand to have been the ultimate purpose of this action? As far as I could understand it at that moment was this, the National Party continued to give in to the ANC, PAC, other such organisations, that white people kept on being fired out of their positions and black people kept on being employed. Many of my friends who had businesses, and also myself, had been damaged because, or hurt, because of parts that were stolen from vehicles, people who broke into scrapyards and so on, even at places where night watchmen were on duty, maybe because they were sitting and sleeping, or maybe because they were drunk, but in any event people had losses because of these night watchmen, so we then decided that we would make a contribution as white people that both government and private organisations had to be shown that black people were not up to this particular kind of task. We believed that if this happened on more occasions, they would fire black people and employ white people. QUESTION Did you understand this to be the purpose of your action? Yes. QUESTION Why did you agree to this action, when Adriaan came to you with this plan, why did you agree to do this? Being a supporter of the AWB, sharing their purposes and their objectives and believing it to have been right, and in view of the many people who had difficulties due to unemployment... 2/ QUESTION:/... 247 W VAN STRAATEN QUESTION If you talk about "us", who are you referring to? White people, people who lost their positions, who had high positions but were fired and replaced by black people. I thought that, from my point of view, with Adriaan's suggestion, I thought that I would be doing something for my people, and that if this were to happen more than once, or on several occasions, the consequence would be to create employment for white people. QUESTION Two weeks later you were arrested, is that correct? Yes. QUESTION Upon your arrest, could you briefly sketch for the commission how it came about that you made the confession and what happened at your later trial, at your subsequent trial? I was arrested in Pretoria. If I remember correctly, there were four or five investigating officers, using two vehicles. I phoned Adriaan to tell me, or to ask him that he should come and pick me up in front of the State Theatre in Pretoria. QUESTION Is that the evening that the police picked you up? Yes, the evening of the arrest. QUESTION Where did they then take you? We were then taken first to Vanderbijl Park Murder and Robbery Unit. On the evening of my arrest, I had been drinking, but I was fully conscious. We did not make any confessions or statements that evening. QUESTION Did you indicate to the police, or rather let me ask it in a different way, did the police ask you about your crime upon your arrest? 247 W VAN STRAATEN Yes. After they arrested Adriaan, we were not supposed to have been together, they kept us separately, each on his own. I was in Meyerton, Adriaan was in Vereeniging, Dawid was in Vanderbijl Park. QUESTION Are these the police stations? That's correct, the police stations. QUESTION The police then asked you why you committed this crime, or did they not ask you? Yes, they asked me. The one investigating officer, whom I knew quite well, told me that he was sorry to have heard of the incident. I then said to him, "Yes, it did not turn out in the way which we had intended." He then asked me what our intention was with the truck. When I told him what our purpose had been... (END OF TAPE 2A - WORDS LOST - START OF TAPE 2B) ...arms. Since I did not go there with arms, it was our intention only to tie them up. On the way to Meyerton Police Station where I would have been kept under arrest, the one detective asked me, as we were driving along, and I'm not trying to say anything particularly nasty about them, but we all know that such a person being brought under arrest, that they threaten people, that they sometimes beat you up, he then asked me if this was one of my tall tales and whether I would attempt to make my case political and that I can forget about this, and his straight words were the following: that I would have to live the rest of my life with Mandela at Robben Island, that we should play the game and tell them what exactly happened and then that we would not have a long imprisonment. I was confused and did not know what exactly to do at that moment. The next day, if I remember correctly, we went to the Vereeniging Police 2/ Station/... 248 W VAN STRAATEN Station where we made statements. QUESTION Would that have been before your confession? No, rather it would have been a confession in front of a magistrate. QUESTION So in 1991 you stood trial, is that correct? Yes. QUESTION I made a statement. I think that in my statement I confessed that I was involved in the crime. When we were found guilty, and we do not feel that we had a fair trial, because the Legal Aid which I had, the attorney which I wanted to obtain told me that he could not take my case, since I had already made a confession. QUESTION You were then found guilty at the trial, you did not bring testimony at the trial, is that correct, that's the trial of '91, May '91, you made no testimony yourself, but you were found guilty, is that the case? Yes. I pleaded guilty on the crime at that time, I was confused, subsequently I pleaded not guilty on murder, guilty on robbery. QUESTION Is that how you pleaded? Indeed. QUESTION You were then given 15 years of imprisonment, is that the case? Indeed, and I am at Zonderwater Prison in Medium A section. QUESTION When were you placed in Medium A, were you placed there directly after your imprisonment? No. After having been found guilty, we were, if I remember correctly, for about two weeks in Leeuhof, and then we were put over to Zonderwater. QUESTION For how long were you in Zonderwater before you 2/ were/... 249 W VAN STRAATEN were placed in the Medium A section? QUESTION Looking back upon the events of 1989, what would your current view in this regard be, how do you see what happened and what you did? With the passage of time, many things changed, we also changed, we changed a lot. If one looks at how things have changed since the election... QUESTION Which election are you referring to? The 1994 election. If I had known then what I know now, then I wouldn't have been sitting here today. QUESTION May I just take you back to one aspect, so that I can clarify it with you, the evening when Adriaan came to you, the evening of 17th of June 1989, if I understand correctly from his testimony, he suggested that you establish a cell? Yes, yes, that's correct. QUESTION What was your understanding of how this cell would operate, how it would function, what would be its ultimate objective? If we had continued with what we had been busy with, we, I think, would have targeted and attacked bigger places later on, we would have become stronger, gained more members. QUESTION Right. Did you ever, did Adriaan ever tell you where this idea of a cell had originated, where he'd got the 2/ idea/... 250 W VAN STRAATEN idea from? He told me about this friend of his, who had told him to become involved in the Vaal Triangle. QUESTION Did he say anything more regarding this friend? Yes. Well at that stage, as I understand it, at that stage I didn't know Robbie Coetzee personally, I just heard of him, he was a member of the motor bike club and I'd heard of him, but I'd never personally met him. QUESTION You had also testified earlier that you were a member of the CP, the Conservative Party? Yes. QUESTION And that you were a supporter of the AWB? Yes. QUESTION Your support of the AWB, how strong was that? If they held meetings in nearby towns, I often attended these meetings. I always kept myself slightly apart, I met many of the people there, until later on I, if I could have made a final decision, I would have joined them, but I never got that far. I always just pursued their objectives, I was in agreement with what they were fighting for. QUESTION Could you perhaps give us one or two examples of these objectives with which you agreed? Yes. For instance self-determination for our own people, independence from other people... QUESTION When you talk about other people, what other people are you referring to? I'm talking about other racial groups. QUESTION Right, I have no further questions, chairperson. Mr Van Straaten, you testified that you were a supporter of the AWB. Did you ever attend any meetings of 2/ the/... 251 W VAN STRAATEN the AWB? Could you repeat the question please? Did you attend any AWB meetings? Meetings? Did you associate yourself with the political doctrines of the AWB? Yes. And what was their political policy? As I mentioned, self-determination, you've actually caught me unawares, but so that we could be entirely independent from other people, so that we could have our own schools. For how long were you a member of the CP? From the election, I'm not sure whether it was '92 or '93. Were you perhaps a member for two or three years? Yes, yes that's right. Were you an active member of the CP? Yes, I was an active member. The offence which you committed, is that perhaps one of the ways in which these political objectives could have been achieved by the CP? Yes, as I said, our objective with this offence was to create more job opportunities for white people. But, am I correct in saying that this particular offence, that you committed this not as a result of an order or instruction? No, not at all. I refer you to the supplementary statement, apologies, chairperson, my notes have not been indexed or 2/ numbered,/... 252 W VAN STRAATEN numbered, but that is the witness' statement, I am referring to paragraph 9 thereof, paragraph 9 of the statement, and the paragraph reads as follows:- "The reason why we grabbed hold of them was to tie them up and then to remove the truck." That's correct. Is it correct that the purpose and the reasons mentioned in your statement was to actually rob or to steal the vehicle? Are you saying what was the purpose? Yes, the purpose, you say "the reason why we tied them up was to remove the truck", so the purpose or reason was to actually rob the truck? To remove it, yes. And that had nothing to do with any political objectives, am I correct? As I said, it was to show the government and other private institutions, to show them that their black night watchmen were not competent for the job. Yes, but according to your statement, you actually put it very nicely, the reason why you tied them up, and that was to remove the truck. Was that perhaps a mistake? No, no, that's correct. And that was repeated in paragraph 16 of your statement, which reads as follows "The reason why we took the truck..." that's the second reason:- "...was to demonstrate that blacks were not competent to do the work." Do you understand that? In other words, the second reason 2/ was,/... 253 W VAN STRAATEN was, also had nothing to do with political objectives and the achievement of any political ideals? No, I am not quite with you, I don't understand? Must I repeat that? Yes please. "The purpose and reason why we took the truck was to demonstrate that the blacks were not competent to do the work." Do you understand that? Yes, that's correct. Now, my statement is that this reason shows that the act which you committed had nothing whatsoever to do with political objectives. Do you understand me now? Yes. And this also links up with paragraph 9, which I read to you earlier, do you agree? Yes, I'm with you, but it actually amounts to the same thing. How so? That is why we removed the truck, to prove that the people weren't competent to do this work. Now you're saying that we didn't mention anything about tying up, to me that's all one and the same thing. No, no, I agree with you, I agree with the reason which you've now mentioned, but what I would like to put to you is that the reasons which you mentioned in your statement is proof that what you did had nothing to do with political objectives, do you understand me? 2/ QUESTION:/... 253 W VAN STRAATEN QUESTION Chairperson, pardon me, I just want to point out that these two paragraphs are now being used out of context. In the context of the statement as a whole, it is part of a story which was told and it is actually taken out of context. CHAIRMAN You say it's not political, but isn't this very similar to (indistinct) action, that what they were saying was that these jobs should not be given to black people, they should be reserved for whites, isn't that what he's saying? That can be drawn, but that is what I'm trying, that is why I'm putting these questions to him, is for him to come out with that. I don't want to draw inferences or conclusions for him. No further questions. JUDGE NGOEPE Were you accused No 1 during the trial? That's correct. From the judgment that you had a number of previous convictions? That's correct. And one of them was, you were convicted of, in 1987, of the theft of a caravan? No, that's not correct. What was the nature of your previous convictions, maybe, I mean, I'm planting wrong convictions on you, what were your previous convictions? Theft of a trailer, a motor bike trailer. A motor bike trailer? In about '89, maybe '87, and also a previous conviction for driving under the influence. You were sentenced to two years imprisonment, am I right? 254 W VAN STRAATEN That's correct. And you were released on the 9th of June 1989? That's correct. You committed this offence after you were released from prison? That's correct. Mr Van Straaten, is it correct that you had a drinking problem? No, no chairperson. Were you not also convicted of driving under the influence of drink? Yes, that's true. On more than one occasion? Yes, on about three different occasions, but each one of us at social occasions would have a drink and perhaps we encounter a road blockade, our alcohol percentage is too high. Yes. On that Saturday, what time did you start drinking on that Saturday? Approximately ten o'clock in the morning, when those bars open. Ten o'clock in the morning? Yes. Did you continue drinking throughout the day? If I had continued drinking throughout the day, then I should have been asleep by 12 o'clock that night, I wouldn't have been able to commit an offence, so I don't want to blame the alcohol, I don't want to say that it's because of alcohol that I committed the offence. 255 W VAN STRAATEN No, I appreciate that, that you say it was, you don't want to hide behind the drink, but you were very strongly under the influence at that stage? Yes, I wouldn't say strongly under the influence. Well, you must either have been strongly under the influence, or you must have been very resistant to alcohol? Yes, maybe, if that's the way you put it. Mr Van Straaten, I would like to tell you I have real problems to see how the stealing of this vehicle could have had anything to do with the pursuing of political convictions or an attempt to try and influence the government to make any changes in the political situation? As I already said, what I wanted to try and prove by committing this act, well if it was our view to, if we wanted to steal the vehicle, we would, in the first place, have obtained a competent driver to drive the truck, because I didn't have that experience. You are alleging that alcohol played a role in the commission of the offence. Now if I was under the influence, got into a truck, which I didn't know how to operate, and then to try and drive this truck on a busy road, well it just doesn't make sense. But didn't you perhaps just think that the truck was similar to a motor car and that you would be able to drive it quite easily? No. If it was your objective, could you not perhaps just have removed the vehicle, just to get it outside the gate, that would have made your point, you would 2/ have/... 256 W VAN STRAATEN have proved your point? Well, to remove it from the premises, you see the vehicle wasn't found in my possession, whether I'd parked it just outside the gate or a couple of metres further on, remove is remove. Yes, but you parked it about 300 to 400 metres away when its brakes failed. No, I'll tell you, this vehicle, from the moment that I'd removed it from the premises, the vehicle just wouldn't function properly, there was something wrong with it. Yes, and you had hoped that with the increase in pressure, the vehicle would start up again? No. According to my experience, there are many easier ways to steal a vehicle, easier than the way in which we tried to do it. Yes, I believe that, but you didn't succeed in your aim. Why didn't you take ropes with you to tie up the people. This was a transport company and you always find ropes on such a vehicle, underneath the vehicle, you usually find ropes present on such a vehicle, and that's the reason why I didn't take any ropes along with me, because I was sure I would find some on the premises. Did your brother not tell you that he had ropes in the back of his vehicle and that you should use those? No, he didn't. No, we did not take our own ropes. Was that the first time you heard about those ropes, here today in this hall? 257 W VAN STRAATEN Yes, that's correct. When your brother mentioned it? That's correct. Thank you, chairperson. But, Mr Van Straaten, you should have, or you would have had to tie up the night watchmen first, before you could get to the trucks? Correct, when I entered the premises, Dawid and myself each grabbed a night watchman, we held onto them, Adriaan and Gideon then came and when they arrived, I let go of my night watchman and went off in my direction. Each one of us had our own specific task. Yes, but I'm asking this question arising from the question asked by Mr De Jager, and you said in answer that you would have been able to obtain ropes in the truck, but what I'm putting to you is that you would have had to first tie up the guards before you could get to the truck where you would have then been able to find the ropes? Correct. So what would you have used to tie up the night watchmen if you hadn't been able to get to the truck first? As I explained to the committee, there are always pieces of canvas and ropes present in these trucks to cover the loads, the goods. UNKNOWN SPEAKER Mr Van Straaten, I think what my learned friend is trying to ask you is, before you would be able to obtain the rope, you would have had to first neutralise the guard to be able to get to the truck and the rope, so how would you have neutralised him before obtaining the rope? But that's what I'm telling the committee, 2/ and/... 258 W VAN STRAATEN and that's what I can't understand you, when Dawid and I entered the premises, we each of us grabbed hold of a night watchman. My job was to remove the truck from the premises, I grabbed my guard and then left him to the other two accused to deal with. Their task was to tie them up whilst I was supposed to go to the truck. I wasn't told to first go and look for ropes, each one of us had our own very specific task. JUDGE WILSON (Indistinct) till about 11:30 weren't you? That's correct. What was the place called? Where we were drinking? National Station Bar? That's right. And Mr Texeira tried to get you to stay there, so he could take you, I'm talking about the group, home because you were too drunk to drive, he gave that evidence at your trial? No, that's not so. Wasn't that the evidence at your trial? Not as far as I'm aware. What we would have done is, we were invited to the owner's home... Your brother gave that evidence at the trial, not Mr Texeira, that you had been drinking at the National Station Bar in Vereeniging until after lunch in the morning, you went home and returned there that evening and stayed there till 11:30. Yes. And he then said Mr Texeira wanted you to stay behind as you were too drunk, that you drove home drunk, not you, accused No 2. 2/ MR VAN STRAATEN/.... 259 W VAN STRAATEN Accused No 2, but I can't see how that can be. Well they give that evidence. No, otherwise I would have known about it. Page 18 of the record, 7 of the judgment. He seems to want to have alleged that we weren't competent to drive our motor car home, but to me that doesn't make any sense, how can a drunk person enter premises and overpower the night watchmen? If we were all drunk, they would have overpowered us, that's my argument and that's why I can't understand this line of arguing. When was the decision to steal the truck made, that night, at what time? It must have been at round about eight or nine o'clock that evening. Prior you went to the National Station Bar to have a drink? We were at the Station Bar the whole day. The decision to rob the truck, is that when it was made, the decision was taken at the bar? No, not at the bar, we decided that earlier in the afternoon at home. And when was the decision to steal the truck and leave it approximately three metres away from the premises made, 300 metres, made, when was it taken, that decision? It must have been at about half past twelve that night, or 12 o'clock. You made that decision after you had chosen the company in question as the company to be targeted for the theft of the truck? 259 W VAN STRAATEN That's correct. What premises had you inspected prior to deciding on that company as a target for you choice as the stealing of the truck? I wasn't at any other one place, we went straight, I went straight to that particular property. A decision was made to steal the truck and put it 300 metres away from the premises. Did you know the make and the model of the truck you intended to steal? No. CHAIRMAN Any re-examination? QUESTION Only a single question, Mr Chair. Mr Van Straaten, you will agree with me that if four people of an organisation would go and steal a truck and tie up two guards, no-one would know who had done it, and it would make very little impact, would you agree with me? Yes, I agree. QUESTION How then would you say did you plan to make this event known to the wider world, that you had done this action and what your intentions were? No. QUESTION Do you understand my question? Yes. Do you mean if I would have told anyone about it? QUESTION No, that is not what I mean. You, as a cell, you and your three brothers, did you have any plans with regard to your intentions, your purpose, your objective with this action, to make it known? Yes, to a personal acquaintance, possibly. QUESTION Please talk more loudly. Yes, possibly to a friend or some other 3/ supporter/... 260 W VAN STRAATEN supporter of the AWB, who could maybe whisper someone in the ear that you did this action and that you had intended to do more. QUESTION The owners of the particular business, did you intend to let them know or bring your plans under their attention? No. QUESTION No further questions, chair. Chair, the next witness is Gideon van Straaten. 3/ GIDEON/.... 261 G VAN STRAATEN GIDEON VAN STRAATEN (sworn states) QUESTION Mr Chair, before continuing with this particular applicant, it came to my attention that I made an error when I stated to the first applicant that he was born on the 5th of March, that is mistaken, the first applicant was born on the 2nd of March. Adriaan was born on the 2nd of March, Willem on the 5th of March. In fact, Chair, that is the case. Mr Van Straaten, you were born on the 11th of April 1966 in Vereeniging? That is correct. QUESTION Could you tell the commission what about your childhood, how you were raised, the circumstances of your childhood? I was born on the 11th of April 1966 in Vereeniging. I am the third youngest, I have two sisters and six bothers. QUESTION You said that you were the third eldest? No, the third youngest. QUESTION The third youngest. In 1972 I began my schooling. My father died in that same year. QUESTION Could you speak slightly louder please? Yes. QUESTION So in 1972 you went to school, is that the case? Yes, that was the primary school. In the same year my father died. QUESTION The relationship between yourself and your father, could you tell or explain to the commission how strong this relationship was? At the time, I was rather young, I was only six years old when my father died. I only remember 3/ about/... 262 W VAN STRAATEN about him very vaguely. What I do remember is that he was very strict. QUESTION What values did he communicate to you, if any? You know, as we grew up, he was a very strict person, for him things were only right or wrong, you couldn't get past him with anything wrong. QUESTION You had heard your elder brother, Adriaan, giving testimony that your father communicated certain values to him. Would you say that the same values were communicated to yourself, or did you experience it differently? I don't think it was quite the same with me, because I was quite young at the time. Only later did these view arise in me. QUESTION In 1972 you went to primary school? Yes. QUESTION This was still in Vereeniging? Yes, it was still in Vereeniging. We lived on a smallholding and later moved into town. QUESTION When was this? We moved into town roughly in 1974, that's when we moved to town. In 1975 my mother remarried. The relationship with my stepfather was such, while he was good to us, it was difficult for me to accept him as father. QUESTION Where did you complete your schooling? We then moved to a different house and I went to the Primary School Handhaven, where I completed standard five in 1979. QUESTION Did you complete your secondary schooling? No, in 1980, I entered standard six in (Indistinct) Technical School, Vereeniging, that's where I started my secondary schooling, and that carried through to 3/ 1983,/... 263 W VAN STRAATEN 1983, when I began my two years of military service. QUESTION How old were you at that time and what standard did you complete? I left school upon completing standard eight. QUESTION You then went to the army? Yes. I completed my two years of military service in the Air Force in Pretoria at Valhalla, and then I went to Hoedspruit Air Force Base. QUESTION Did you complete your basic training? Yes. We had various phases, including a weapons phase or arms phase, in which we were trained how to do armed combat, how to fight with an enemy. At that time most of the enemy were black. QUESTION Is that what you were taught? Yes. QUESTION You then went to Hoedspruit, is that the case? Yes. QUESTION Is that where you received your military training? Indeed, I completed my military training there, 1985 I went to the border for six months. QUESTION What did you do on the border, what unit did you do your service in? It was in the Air Force. We were only guards, we did guard duty at the gates of the base. QUESTION In '85 you then left the army? Indeed. QUESTION Upon reflection, what values did you take with you out of the army, what was your experience of military training? 264 W VAN STRAATEN