amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1997-12-01 PRETORIA 4 MR CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54858&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pta/2derby2.htm ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman - thank you members of the Committee, we are ready to begin. Mr Chairman, we are still in the hands of my learned friends on the other side Mr Chairman. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, the next witness will be Mrs Gaye, Derby-Lewis. GAYE DERBY-LEWIS (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Derby-Lewis, you are the wife of the applicant Mr Clive Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Is it correct that on the 21st of April 1993, you were arrested at your home in connection with the matter which is now being heard by the Committee? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Is it also correct that you were - on the 21st of April, you were detained in terms of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And after your detention in terms of the Act, you were subsequently charged together with the two applicants, Mr Clive Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR PRINSLOO Is it also correct that you appeared in the Supreme Court in Johannesburg - together with the two applicants, on charges relating to the death of Mr Chris Hani as well as other related charges? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR PRINSLOO Is it also correct that you were subsequently acquitted by his Lordship Mr Justice Eloff - in this matter? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mr Clive Derby Lewis - your husband, was arrested prior to your detention on the 21st of April? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, Mrs Derby-Lewis, is it correct that you were previously a member of the Nationalist Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Approximately when was this? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I joined the Nationalist Party in 1975, which was the time that I became a South African citizen. MR PRINSLOO For how long were you a member of the Nationalist Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I was a member of the National Party until 1979 when I handed in my resignation because of the change of their policies. MR PRINSLOO Were you also - during the your membership of the Nationalist Party, employed by the Department of Information? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO At that stage - the late Mr Connie Mulder, was he a member of the Nationalist Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he was a Cabinet Minister, he was the Minister of Information. MR PRINSLOO For how long were you employed by the Department of Information? MRS DERBY-LEWIS For approximately three and a half years. MR PRINSLOO And after that, did you become involved in the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I remained outside politics since the time that I left the National Party and I was a founder member of the Conservative Party. MR PRINSLOO And your husband, Mr Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO When did you meet him? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I met him in the Conservative Party and we were married in 1986. MR PRINSLOO Now, in as far as your - what was your - did you occupy a particular office in the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I occupied statutory positions and I was also an employee. In the statutory side, I was member of the "Dag Bestuur", which is the Executive Council of the Transvaal, I was a member of the "Hoof Raad", which is the Head Council, I was a member of the Information Committee and various other Committees. All of these were - I was elected to these positions. MR PRINSLOO When did you commence that position as the Editor of The Patriot? MRS DERBY-LEWIS 1987. MR PRINSLOO And since when were you a member of the "Dag Bestuur" - as you refer to it, of the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I was elected to that position - basically from the word go, every year from 1982, 1983 until the time that I was incarcerated. In other words, there were annual elections and I was elected just about every year to those positions. MR PRINSLOO Did you attend official meetings of the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Are you referring to public meetings or meetings of the Committee - meetings of the officials? MR PRINSLOO First of all, public meetings? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And meetings of the officials? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Was that on a regular basis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS The Conservative Party always believed in elections of course, there was a programme of principles and policy and these were ratified every year at various congresses. In 1987, the Conservative Party became the official opposition and we felt confident that by 1989 we would at least have some kind of power. MR PRINSLOO Will you just go a bit slower please? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry. Became one of despair and despite the fact that Mr de Klerk had promised to go back to the electorate before he brought in a new Constitution, he did do that and the climate in 1992 for example, was one of violence on both sides and an attitude within ourselves of: "What are we going to do to stop the treason". MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS We handed in to the Committee a selection of quotes from The Patriot, where it was quite clear that some kind of drastic action would have to be done to stop what we saw coming and which eventually did come. MR PRINSLOO And what did you see, what was coming - as you referred to? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, we saw the ANC and the Communist Party taking over. MR PRINSLOO Did the Conservative Party regard the ANC and the SACP as a threat or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO What was your relationship with the late Doctor Andries Treurnicht? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Both my husband and I had a fairly close relationship on a personal level. We were English speaking people and Clive had stood the 1984 election in Rosettenville and Doctor Treurnicht had asked him to stand there to test the urban English support and we got to know him fairly well. He represented to us the sort of person we wanted to follow. MR PRINSLOO At what level or to what extent was there any support for the Conservative Party at the time? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO What position did you husband Mr Derby-Lewis, occupy in the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, my husband was on all of the Committees that I was on, he was also - after 1987, a caucus member and he was an official opposition shadow spokesman on economic affairs and was part of the policy making body. MR PRINSLOO How was he regarded and received or accepted by the public at large in as far as the Conservative Party was concerned? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now Mrs Derby-Lewis, in this trial of the late Mr Chris Hani, there was reference made to a list that was drawn up and sent to a Mr Arthur Kemp. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And by whom was that list - that was sent to Mr Arthur Kemp, compiled?MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I compiled that list. MR PRINSLOO Now, this particular list that you referred to which you compiled - I refer Mr Chairman, to the record - the transcript of the case record, volume two and the reference to page 82 where the list of names appear. JUDGE WILSON Which is the transcript, volume what? MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO ...[indistinct] MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON ...[inaudible] MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON It is found in the large file. MR PRINSLOO JUDGE WILSON "Reply to the request for further and better particulars" and then a list of names. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Yes, please. MR PRINSLOO Thank you. Mrs Derby-Lewis, in front of you now - at page 82 of the record, is a list of names. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Would you look at it please? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Is this the list of names which you compiled and submitted to Mr Arthur Kemp? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Will you please tell the Committee who is Mr Arthur Kemp? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Arthur Kemp is an old friend of mine, he is a journalist - a fellow journalist. I met him in the Conservative Party and he also worked for The Patriot. He also helped me in the 1987 elections in Hillbrow and we were personal friends - he and his family. He also was a journalist of great perspicacity who was always willing to help me and he worked at The Citizen after leaving The Patriot. MR PRINSLOO Is it also correct that Mr Kemp was a former member of the South African Police - at that stage, the security branch? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, when did you submit this list to Mr Arthur Kemp? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And where did you fax it to - to his home? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I faxed it to The Citizen on an open fax - Citizen newspaper. MR PRINSLOO This particular list, was it hand-written or was it typed or ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, it was typed on my computer and it was still on my computer when the police came to my house on the 17th of April and took the computers. MR PRINSLOO Now, for what reason did you send the list to Mr Kemp and what did you require - will you please tell the Committee? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I had written quite a few of them and at one stage I wrote an article about a Mr Nelson Mandela and Mrs Winnie Mandela - after information I had received from somebody in the Receiver of Revenue, that they were not being assessed for tax, which I considered to be something of public interest. I checked out the documents that I had with somebody who was a tax expert and they confirmed the veracity of it and I wrote an article in The Patriot which was approved by the Conservative Party: Do Nelson and Winnie Pay Tax? - I have a copy of that here for the Committee if they wish. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. MRS DERBY-LEWIS So I phoned up Doctor Ferdie Hartzenberg and I said I had this information and would he like to see it because he was due to make a speech in Parliament at the opening of Parliament in 1993 and seeing that Mr de Klerk was going to hand over to the ANC, perhaps it would be of interest to the public to find out how they managed their own affairs because they were ultimately going to manage the affairs of South Africa. He said: "Yes" and concomitant with that I got a whole lot of names, some journalists as well. The reason why I got the journalists is because there were at least three of them from the Afrikaans press that I could not believe that they could write what they wrote in terms of being Afrikaners and in terms of trying to protect their heritage. I bring this up because I now move on to another ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO Just a moment Mrs Derby-Lewis ..[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, one thing is leading to another - you must lead me. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, I would like to present to the Committee, a document referred to by Mrs Derby-Lewis. Will you please identify this document which you referred to which was taken off a computer as you referred to in your evidence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, this is the document. MR PRINSLOO Is that the original document? MRS DERBY-LEWIS This is the original document - this was taken off the computer and it was summarised for me and this was the document that I gave Doctor Hartzenberg - which I placed on his desk, in parliament. MR PRINSLOO It will be referred to as Exhibit R, with your permission Mr Chairman. The copies ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Very well, it will go in as Exhibit R. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, in as far as your conversation with Mr Ferdie Hartzenberg is concerned, at the time - with regard to this information, did you diarise it in your diary? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Can I show you an extract from the diary? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS February the 9th ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, to the best of my recollection, the last exhibit was P - I beg your pardon, Q. CHAIRPERSON Q. MR PRINSLOO Q was the last exhibit. JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO T, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And Mrs Derby-Lewis - the extract of her diary will be Exhibit S. MR PRINSLOO As it pleases. MR PRINSLOO Now Mrs Derby-Lewis, Exhibit S which an extract from your diary, will you please indicate to the Committee the relevant entry which you referred to when - which you had to speak to Mr Hartzenberg again in order to remind him? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Ferdie re ANC info - when needed" MR PRINSLOO That appears on the left side of the page. MRS DERBY-LEWIS About five lines from the bottom. MR PRINSLOO Five lines of the written lines. JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now Mrs Derby-Lewis, when you say: "Operation Vula", what was that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, "Operation Vula" was the - I think it was a plan for an uprising which had been - was planned after the unbanning of the ANC, which was strange to many of us because after having being unbanned, clearly the path to power was open. MR PRINSLOO An uprising of what nature are you referring to? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, will you please tell the Committee if any of the names of the people allegedly involved in "Operation Vula" appears on this list and if so, whose names? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS He was a particularly active person and I went to listen to him once at Wits University and I found that this type of activism contrasted with my idea of what a Judge should be. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, the names that appear on the list, Ken Owen, Karen Bruinhard, Wepener, John Kwelane, Tim du Plessis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And Mr - the name Niehaus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON What sort of people were they? What did they do? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Niehaus and Mr Grosskopf - I see politics as one of nationalism and to actually actively work against the survival of your own people, I found strange. It may not be the kind of opinion that everybody agrees with but this is what I found strange. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mr Niehaus and Mr Grosskopf, were they members of any political party as far you know? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And in as far as the person Boesak is concerned? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, Mr Pik Botha, is that the former Minister ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Minister of - yes, of Foreign Affairs. MR PRINSLOO And the person Jordan? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS I asked Mr Kemp if he knew - if he any information as to their addresses and the type of houses that they lived in. MR PRINSLOO And why did you require their addresses and the type of houses they lived in - that information? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] 6 in bundle B. May we ask that we are spared the expense and the volume. CHAIRPERSON They say this is a different document Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS Oh, this is headed: JHB today? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, this is a different page. MR PRINSLOO Just a moment. Now, Mrs Derby-Lewis, Exhibit U which has now been presented to the Committee, what page are you referring to? MRS DERBY-LEWIS And I would refer the Committee to this particular page where he writes about how a Russian agent used a journalist for political means and he says: MR PRINSLOO What paragraph are you referring to? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "While courting Thomas, Lefchenko searched for ways to arouse in him, one or more of the motivations of mice, money, ideology, compromise, ego" And further down: "The upkeep of his house photographed earlier on by a residency agent also cost him substantially". MR PRINSLOO Now, Mrs Derby-Lewis, journalists at large, do they receive good salaries or what? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, journalists at large are poorly paid and are substantially susceptible to bribery and I refer to the submissions to the Truth Commission recently - within the last couple of months. If the Amnesty Committee would like, I can give them documentation by journalists in the journalistic profession in general, where it was stated that more than half the journalists in South Africa were on the pay of somebody, some organisation and it was quite surprising to see who was. A journalist is the sort of person who can ask more questions than even a policeman, so a journalist is quite influential and I think if I refer to the document that Mr Bizos handed in about Mr Kemp and his relationship with Mr Pieterse ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO Are you referring to a statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO "The Death of Chris Hani" CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRINSLOO As it pleases Mr Chairman. Exhibit V Mrs Derby-Lewis. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO You make mention to a Mr Pieterse, to what particular passage in this statement are you referring to? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Paragraph 3. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Page one. MR PRINSLOO Will you please read it to the Committee. MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Information corresponding to the so-called hit-list found in the flat of Walus was reported to division 052 by agent Z0066 (Jerry Pieterse who fronted as a freelance reporter) who received it from sub-source 46 (Arthur Kemp) who was not aware of his link to NIS through Pieterse, not was he a registered agent of NIS. Pieterse was handled as a principal agent who ran his own network of sub-sources, mainly journalists or stringers for major national and international newspapers. The sub-sources communicated their newspaper type reports to Pieterse by computer" MR PRINSLOO And who was this man? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Steven Laufer. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, for the purposes of the record, I am informed that this document was handed to us at the pre-trial conference by the representative of the Commission Mr Chairman and a copy was also handed to counsel for the witnesses. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about Exhibit V? MR BIZOS Exhibit V. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON All this is in an endeavour to explain why your list had on it names of certain journalists? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, Mr Arthur Kemp, is he still in South Africa? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Kemp is in England, he left with his wife and children, he immigrated. MR PRINSLOO Now, Exhibit T you referred to earlier, that is the document that contains a lot of information as you indicated members of the ANC, what was the significance of Exhibit T to you at the time when you received it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Was the salaries these people received, of any significance to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, there was a list of salaries and there were people here who were getting R2.500-00 a month and living in rather luxurious houses. MR PRINSLOO The salaries which is reflected on this document, would you describe that as a good salary, a poor salary or what? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, for example, Mr Steve Twete was getting R3.500-00, Mr Chris Hani was getting R3.500-00, Mr Max Sesulu was getting R5.000-00 etc., to me these were market related salaries at the time. MR PRINSLOO These names that appear on the list of Exhibit T, do some of these names also appear on the list which you sent to Mr Kemp or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. MR PRINSLOO Was there any relation between the list Exhibit T or this document and the list you requested information of from Mr Kemp? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, there were some of the names. Joe Slovo was there, Ronnie Kasserels was there, Mr Hani was there, Mr Mandela was there - I think that was about all. MR PRINSLOO Was there any connection between this list - this document, Exhibit T and the information you required? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Oh yes, sorry Mr Jordan was there, Mr Carl Niehaus was there. Yes, because there were salaries mentioned here and in the light of my continuing articles, I found this of great interest. I thought maybe I would gain something from finding out whether they were indeed living in fairly luxurious surrounding. MR PRINSLOO If you did find they were living in luxurious surroundings, what would you have done? - with the list and ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON What do you mean: "At the last minute"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And that particular bus station, where is it situated? MRS DERBY-LEWIS That was the Rotunda. MR PRINSLOO Is that in Johannesburg? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And did you then meet Mr Kemp at the Rotunda bus station? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I did. MR PRINSLOO And on that particular day, what transpired between you and Mr Kemp? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON What page? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, I now show you page 411, 410 and 409, do you recognise these documents? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO What are these documents, these three pages? MRS DERBY-LEWIS These are the pages of what Mr Kemp had given me in the envelope. MR PRINSLOO Is this what was referred to in the trial in the Supreme Court as the list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS That is what is referred to as the list. MR PRINSLOO And if you look at page 411, what appears on this page? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Then page 410 - I beg your pardon, let me go to page 409 first. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO But is there a description? MRS DERBY-LEWIS There a description, yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mrs Derby-Lewis, when you received this list from Mr Kemp, did the writing that appears on page 410 alongside the names, was it there on the list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Did you write on this list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Is this your handwriting? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO From your personal knowledge, do you know who wrote this - from what you know personally, not what you heard - on this list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And after you received this list, what did you do with it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, he gave it to me in an envelope and I just put it in my handbag and boarded the bus. CHAIRPERSON I think he wants to know what did you do with the list. MR PRINSLOO Where did you take it, what did you do with it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Oh, I took it to Cape Town with me. MR PRINSLOO Yes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS And my husband met me at the airport and we went back to Parliament because I had to unload the computer equipment ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Can we shorten ...[inaudible] MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] what you did with the document in ...[inaudible] the steps you took to deal with the document. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Certainly. MR PRINSLOO So you took the document ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Yes, and then? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Yes. According to the evidence, this list - Exhibit, landed up in the hands of Mr Walus and was found by the police at his flat? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO According to the evidence. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Did you give this list to Mr Walus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Did you give it to your husband? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO And as it emerged from the evidence now before the Committee, it was handed by your husband to Mr Walus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR PRINSLOO Did you know about that at the time when it was handed over? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Now, on the 10th of April 1993 - correct, there was information on the radio etc., and information was received that Mr Hani was assassinated at his house. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And on that particular day, where were you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I was at the house of Mr and Mrs Venter, we had arranged to meet sometime before that. MR PRINSLOO And was your husband present? MRS DERBY-LEWIS He was, yes. MR PRINSLOO And was the information that was conveyed to you by Mrs Venter with regard to the assassination of Mr Hani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, she answered the phone. MR PRINSLOO Now, on the 12th of April, did you see Mr Kemp on that day? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, was there reference made to Mr Kemp with regard to this list or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Did it emerge - in your conversation, did the list that was referred to in The Beeld newspaper, was actually the list that you received from Mr Kemp? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO But it later transpired to be the same list or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS It did. MR PRINSLOO And did you discuss this matter with your husband - with regard to the list on the 12th of April? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I did. MR PRINSLOO And what did he say and what did you say? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I said to him: "How did it get into the hands of Mr Walus"? MR PRINSLOO Yes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS And he told me that he had given it to him. MR PRINSLOO And at the trial, what was your evidence with regard to the handing over of the list to Mr - with regard to the list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I would like to mention that at the trial, I ...[inaudible] sorry, I prevaricated on that matter. MR PRINSLOO What do you mean by that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Prevaricated - I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Deviated from the truth. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO When Mr Kemp compiled the short list that was referred to now in Exhibit R4, pages 409 to 411, did you in any way assist him or tell him what names to put on that list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS So he actually in effect compiled the list according to his - to the availability of the information. MR PRINSLOO So, you had not assisted him in any way or told as to how to compile that list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no. MR PRINSLOO And did you at any stage conspire with Mr Kemp in order to draw up a list to be used as a hit-list to kill Mr Hani or any other person appearing on that list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Did you - at the time when the list was received and left on the table prior to the death of Mr Hani, did you know that your husband and Mr Walus intended assassinating Mr Hani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Did you know that your husband or Mr Walus intended using that list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Prior to that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO If I understand your evidence correctly, this only came to your knowledge subsequent to the assassination of Mr Hani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, on the 12th of April. MR PRINSLOO The 12th of April. Now, in as far as the evidence is concerned, there was evidence made at the trial of a ZA8 pistol that was used by Mr Walus - the applicant in this matter, to assassinate Mr Hani with that weapon, did you know anything about that weapon? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Absolutely nothing. MR PRINSLOO Did you see that weapon prior to the trial? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Or any prior stage? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Did you know that your husband Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, had acquired that particular weapon from a Mr Faan Venter or anybody? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO And did you know that your husband had a silencer fitted to that weapon? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MRS DERBY-LEWIS I would like to ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO Hang on just a moment. Did you know what a silencer is? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, with the permission of the Commission, I would like to refer to this inventory as Exhibit W. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO I refer you to page 3, third line from the top, would you look at that please? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO What is written there? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Spare bedroom: Stepson - one written A4 document, 1.22 silencer" MR PRINSLOO Now, when that list was compiled, did you see this item? MRS DERBY-LEWIS There was and Mr Gus Sunde - S-u-n-d-e, whose name appears as actually number one on the front page of the policeman attending and I spoke to him and I said: "What is that"? and he said: "That is a silencer". I had never in my life seen a silencer before that moment, the silencer belonged to my son and it had been lying at the bottom of his cupboard downstairs and I indicate to you that I had never ever seen a silencer. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, prior to the assassination of Mr Hani on the 6th of April, is it correct that Mr Walus attended breakfast in your residence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, on the 6th of April. MR PRINSLOO And was this diarised in your diary that a breakfast had to be held or ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO So it was diarised and did Mr Walus then show up on that particular day for breakfast? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he did. MR PRINSLOO And did you attend this breakfast? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I cooked the breakfast I think, the maid helped me and then I went - I left the house. MR PRINSLOO So, were you present on that particular day when breakfast was served or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, according to the evidence of your housemaid Elizabeth, she testified that you were not present during that breakfast, would that be correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. MR PRINSLOO Do you know what was discussed on that particular day between your husband and Mr Walus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mr Walus - at that stage, was he well known to you or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, Mr Walus, was he well versed in the English language or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Now, it is alleged during this Commission that you were involved in a conspiracy to murder Mr Chris Hani, is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Did you at any stage - prior to the assassination of Mr Chris Hani, discuss with Mr Venter anything in order to assassinate Mr Hani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Or any person on that list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Mr Keith Darrel, is he known to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Did you have any discussions or where you present or did you know about any discussions prior to the assassination of Mr Keith Darrel with regard to fitting a silencer or getting a silencer fitted or the assassination of Mr Hani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Mr Lionel Durandt. did you know him? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr and Mrs Durandt were political colleagues and friends from Krugersdorp. MR PRINSLOO And did you ever discuss anything with Mr Lionel Durandt or his wife with regard to obtaining a gun or the delivery of a gun? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Did you have any knowledge or not that a gun was delivered by Mr Lionel Durandt or received and delivered to your husband? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Now, - just a moment Mr Chairman. Now, Mrs Derby-Lewis, Mr Edwin Clarke, could you please tell the Committee where did you meet him and how well did you know him? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Edwin Clarke lived close by and we met - of course like all the other people, in politics. He was a member of the Conservative party, he was a computer fundi and he used to come to the house occasionally to fix our computers. MR PRINSLOO And do you know where Mr Clarke is at the moment? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I believe he lives on a plot and when you want to contact him, you can leave a message and in fact he came to my house four or five days ago and gave me a new screen for my computer. I did leave a message with him, he phoned back and I told him that I was having trouble with the screen and he brought the screen. MR PRINSLOO So, he could be contacted telephonically? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I can just leave a message. MR PRINSLOO And do you know a person by the name of Mr Visser? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Which Mr Visser? MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Yes. Now, his name is Johannes Nicholas Visser. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I know nothing about that. MR PRINSLOO Do you know how - who paid for the defence of Mr Walus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS When we were arrested - the three of us, the Conservative Party immediately organised a defence fund. A list was drawn up and the wording of that list was drawn by Mr Tom Langley who was an Advocate and the Conservative Party list was distributed throughout the membership of the Party and they contributed to our legal funds. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mr Tom Langley, was he also at that stage a member of the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. MR PRINSLOO What was his position in the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS He was a spokesman on foreign affairs, he was a member of - the same level as Clive, a member of the General Council and so forth. MR PRINSLOO And Dillis van Straaten? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes? MR PRINSLOO Was she known to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GAY DERBY-LEWIS (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR PRINSLOO May I proceed? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO The whole list or part of it or what? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, just the top page. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Are you aware there were people - foreigners, who also assisted in this investigation - a certain Mr Kooimans? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Which investigation are you referring to? MR PRINSLOO This recent investigation of the Committee. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Are you aware or first of all, can I put it to you this way - there was a report in The Report newspaper of an investigation that was conducted pertaining to a so-called broad conspiracy and other related matters? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And pursuant to that, did you enquire from The Report newspaper as to where that information emanated from and what it consisted of? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, since ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, that was on the 4th of November 1997 "Dear Mrs Lewis, I refer to your fax of 4th of November regarding certain information. Any information that report may have received on the Hani investigation is a confidential matter between the newspaper and the source, therefore we are unable to assist you in this matter" MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, subsequent to that, did you receive any documentation in the post? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I did. I received three reports in the post addressed to my P.O. box. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, first of all, if you look at Exhibit X1, X2 and X3, are these the documents you received in the post or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Now, these documents, to what do they refer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, the ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO Start off with Exhibit X1. MRS DERBY-LEWIS The first one is a memorandum to Advocate Koki Mpshe from a Wilson Magatla, subject: "Chris Hani Investigation". MR PRINSLOO Yes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Of course, when I got this I went through it and I would like to lay before the Committee some points that I have taken from this. MR PRINSLOO Yes. Now, continue. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO In as far as this documentation is concerned Mrs Derby-Lewis, is there any evidence which indicates that you were involved in this conspiracy? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS You mean besides Mr Lewis and Mr Walus? MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO And does that refer - is that with reference to X1? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And as far as X2 is concerned? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I would like to apologise. CHAIRPERSON Just carry on. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, my views of the contents of the documents of page 9 of Exhibit X1, the second last paragraph. They refer to the fact that the interrogation was secretly recorded on video tape and is available. I just want to place before the Committee that we battled to get these tapes and quite clearly, these tapes have been available to the TRC for some time. JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, with respect Mr Chairman ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon Mr ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman with respect, as far as the video tape is concerned, the witness is referring to the aspect that there was a recording made of the visit by the legal representative of these people. JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Yes, the point that is to be made at page 9, the second to last paragraph "The interrogation was secretly recorded on video tape and is available" CHAIRPERSON Is that the whole purpose of this document? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Is there anything else to be derived from this document? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes - no, not this - yes, this one page 13 - as Mr Prinsloo said about the conclusion arrived at. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON I understand that. MR PRINSLOO Will you please refer to that Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Are you referring to the section that starts "Tinnie Groenewald and ...[indistinct] Bishoff were occupying offices in Hatfield Pretoria at the time, where they were preparing for a war against the ANC. The assassination of political leaders was high on their agenda" ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON Where is it? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR PRINSLOO Is that the passage you want to refer the Committee to Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And then the last page - I beg your pardon, the second to last page Is there anything else you would like to refer to Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, not with those reports. MR PRINSLOO And the reports as handed in Exhibits X1, X2, and X3. The letter which was written to The Report newspaper ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Are you dealing with X3 now? MR PRINSLOO X4, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON I see. MR PRINSLOO ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Do carry on with X4. MR PRINSLOO X4 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO The letter written by yourself Mrs Derby-Lewis, is the letter which is part of X4? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And the date of that letter? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The 4th of November 1997. MR PRINSLOO And what did you request in the letter? Would you please read it out to the Committee? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "On Sunday, the 5th of October, Report carried a front page story concerning a TRC investigative report into the Hani case. This report had apparently been leaked to Report. Our legal team has been trying to get a copy of this report since early June, to no avail. Our attorney has again written to the TRC last week asking for copy. In the meantime, would it be possible for us to obtain a copy of the report in your possession. MR PRINSLOO And X5 is the letter which was received from the Committee? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "The report is not yet completed. I had a meeting with the Deputy Head of our Investigative Unit, Mr Wilson Magatla on the 5th of November, he told me that the conspiracy issue is still being investigated. He has actually left Cape Town to discuss/consult with certain person" MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, they were supportive. During my interrogation with Mr Deetleffs, I asked a question of him "What was the Conservative Party doing"? and his answer was: MR PRINSLOO Did you at any stage - subsequent to your release from prison before the trial or thereafter, did you attend meetings of the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, after I was granted bail in the middle of August, I attended various congresses of the Conservative Party. This did not infringe my bail conditions. MR PRINSLOO And how were you received by the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, Mrs Derby-Lewis, you were arrested on the 21st of April 1993, at four in the morning, is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Did you request the police or not, to contact an attorney at that stage? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I did. MR PRINSLOO How did you do it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Well, under what Act are you arresting me"? "Can I please contact an attorney"? and he said: There was somebody staying in the house at the time, and I asked them to contact Advocate Jeug Prinsloo who was the Conservative Party member of Parliament for Roodepoort. And then I said to Mr Deetleffs: "Where are you taking me"? and he said: "Krugersdorp" So then I told Advocate Prinsloo that I would be going to Krugersdorp. As it subsequently turned out, they just dropped off a book or something in Krugersdorp and took me to Benoni, so there was a bit of a wild goose chase for attorneys to find out where I was after that. MR PRINSLOO Did you arrive during the morning at the Benoni Police Station? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO At the Benoni Police Station, would you please tell the Commission what transpired then, what took place? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I was taken to a room and I was left sitting there for a few hours and then Captain Nick Deetleffs came in and he said to me "You are guilty and you will get 15 years" and I said: and he said: "I can keep you here as long as I want and you will tell me the truth" and quite a few other threats. MR PRINSLOO Were you afforded the opportunity - did you ask Captain Deetleffs or anyone there at that stage to contact your attorney or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I asked him if he would contact Advocate Prinsloo and I gave the number. MR PRINSLOO Did he contact Advocate Prinsloo? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Did you at any stage ask Captain Deetleffs or not, as to whether an attorney had arrived or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, continuously throughout the morning I asked him "Where was my attorney" and he kept saying: MR PRINSLOO And did your attorney arrive? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Did you at any stage during that day, have access to your attorney? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO So, you were not assisted by an attorney at all? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO And during the course of that morning, did Captain Deetleffs obtain a statement from you or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, Captain Deetleffs said that he would write a statement which I should sign. CHAIRPERSON Was that the same day? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, that was in the morning some time. MR PRINSLOO At that stage, were you held under Section 29 or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, at your residence at the time of your arrest or thereafter at your residence, did Captain Deetleffs warn you in terms of Judges Rules? - that is that you were not obliged to make a statement and whatever you would say would be taken down in writing etc. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, not that I can remember. MR PRINSLOO And at the police station, did Captain Deetleffs warn you in terms of Judges Rules before recording any statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, on the contrary, he threatened me, he was most abusive and he said that he would keep me there until I wrote the truth. MR PRINSLOO "I sent a list of names by facsimile" MR PRINSLOO Let me rephrase the question on this basis, did you state the answer "I say nothing" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS "I want to see an attorney and therefore I cannot comment on what you are saying because I need some legal advice" MR PRINSLOO And was this procedure followed throughout the statement which comprises of page 395, 396 up to page 397? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And your replies to each of these questions which appear on page 395, 396, 397, are those the answers you gave in response to that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "No comment" or: MR PRINSLOO Later on during that day, were you detained in terms of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Now, who informed you as to the provisions of that particular Section? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Colonel van Niekerk. MR PRINSLOO What did he say to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "What does that mean" "Isolation and no access to attorneys" MR PRINSLOO And did he say anything else or what would be the purpose of this? MRS DERBY-LEWIS and I subsequently discovered that they had arrived an hour before. MR PRINSLOO Did your attorney then see you subsequent to that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, after you were placed in detention in terms of Section 29, were you interrogated by any particular person or persons? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Was he assisted by anyone? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, there was a Warrant Officer Beetge who came in and out. MR PRINSLOO Now, subsequent to you being released from the provisions of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act, did you compile a note or notes pertaining to your experience whilst being detained in terms of Section 29? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. While I was under Section 29, I kept notes on pieces of paper which the police had given me - the police sergeant had given me. I was very shocked at the system and I wanted to keep a note of it. MR PRINSLOO All I would like to know is - you made notes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mr Chairman, I would like to hand in as Exhibit Y as copies of the occurrence book which was kept at the Edenvale Police Station where the witness was detained. CHAIRPERSON What is the purpose of that? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, the purpose will be that it will be referred to in evidence as to when she was detained, when she was taken out of the police station for the purpose of interrogation. CHAIRPERSON Is that in dispute Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, I would have thought that if we were asked - if we were given a list to check it but ...[indistinct] make an admission on one page but far be it for us to suggest how they should run their case. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may do so if it becomes relevant at that stage. MR PRINSLOO As it pleases Mr Chairman. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, the document which you - you said you wrote a document whilst you were still in custody, after you were released from your detention in terms of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act. I refer to you a document which will be referred to as Exhibit Y Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, are we going to have the original document - the notes that are said to have been done on pieces of paper? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Could we have the original as Exhibit Y please - handed in. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Has it been handed in already? MR PRINSLOO No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON All right, give us a description of these documents please. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, Exhibit Y1 which is the original which I will hand up to you Mr Chairman. This document - the original is now handed up to the Committee. Mrs Derby-Lewis, this document Exhibit Y1, is it in your handwriting? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO When did you write this document? MRS DERBY-LEWIS On the 2nd of May 1993. MR PRINSLOO And where were you at that stage? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And that particular document, does that relate to your treatment whilst detained in terms of Section 29? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And then Exhibit Y2 will be the original notes, is that correct Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO The notes of Y2 Mr Chairman, they are photostatted on separate pieces - on pages of paper together and Exhibit Y2 has now been handed up to the Committee. CHAIRPERSON What is Y2? MR PRINSLOO Y2 is the pieces of notes - original notes Mr Chairman. Mrs Derby-Lewis, would you please read from Exhibit Y1 to the Committee? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The whole matter - may I go ahead? MR PRINSLOO Yes, you may. MRS DERBY-LEWIS "The whole matter has been highlighted by two elements as far as I can see, one to keep legal representation ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry, are you going to ask your client to read this entire document? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Yes. Mrs Derby-Lewis, for what purpose did you compile Exhibit Y1 - this document? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I compiled it because of the experience that I had under Section 29, I wanted to keep records of what had happened to me and I based this on what I could remember and I based it on the notes that I had written while I was incarcerated. MR PRINSLOO And Mrs Derby-Lewis, in as far as your detention was concerned in terms of Section 29, what did you experience? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, while you were detained in terms of Sections 29, did Captain Deetleffs or any other of the interrogators read your rights to you so to speak? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Inform you of Judges Rules and so on? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mrs Derby-Lewis, were you taken out of the cells on various occasions or not for the purposes of interrogation? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And were taken out only in the daytime or night-time? MRS DERBY-LEWIS For the first couple of nights, I sat the whole night and after that I was taken out at various times during the day and sometimes left late at night and sometimes they collected me at night and I sat for hours at night and then came back quite late. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, if Captain Deetleffs had told you that you were not obliged to say anything, would it have made sense to you or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, that was the impression that I got, that one was considered innocent until proved guilty but his attitude was exactly the opposite. "You must say that you are guilty and then we will let you go" MR PRINSLOO Did he ask of you to supply information or to withhold information? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, he asked me to supply information. MR PRINSLOO Now, on the 24th of April, there is a summary of notes which Captain Deetleffs made which is contained in 398 up till page 402 of Exhibit R4 continued, and that you had the opportunity since then to reconcile this with a video tape that was reportedly made on that particular day. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Now, what is recorded at page 398 up to 402, does it represent verbatim what you said on the video, or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO But in essence what is revealed in this particular document, pages 398 to 402, is that true or untrue? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO But this particular document, it was never signed by you was it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no. MR PRINSLOO And did you - up till now, was any original notes made available by the police as far as this statement is concerned? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO In as far as the list is concerned - during your interrogation by Mr Deetleffs, were you questioned about that as well? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, and I told him why I had drawn it up and he said and I said: It is on the tape actually. MR PRINSLOO I refer you to page 398, paragraph 10, will you please read that to the Committee? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "I one day made a list of people for an article, it consisted of people named in the Vula investigation, reporters as well as Judge Richard Goldstone" MR PRINSLOO And is that particular paragraph, is that a complete ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO response to what you told? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And also with reference to His Lordship Mr Justice Goldstone? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. MR PRINSLOO What you said to Mr Deetleffs in this particular passage, does it - in as far as the list is concerned in essence, does it differ from your version in court or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, without going through the statement with regard to each and every particular paragraph here, did you - after being interrogated by Captain Deetleffs for a number of days, were you then interrogated by another person known as Captain de Waal? MRS DERBY-LEWIS And on the 24th I wrote what I thought he wanted me to write but in effect it was basically all I had to say and I had nothing more to say than that. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, is it correct that the tape recordings - the video recordings were received which pertains to you, refers to - partially refers to pages 395 up till page 397 of R4 continued and 398 up till pages 402? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, the video tapes were of one or two hours in the morning of the 21st of April, then there was a blank and the video tape started again on the 24th, so the interrogatory period had been left out. MR PRINSLOO You referred to in your evidence that abuse was shouted at you by Captain Deetleffs and swearing, does that appear on the video tapes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO And when you were interrogated by Captain de Waal, did you see any video recordings with regard to that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, there was a three day lapse between when I had written - what I wrote for or what I had said to Mr Deetleffs and then on the 27th - I was left for three days and then on the 27th I was asked to come to the Edenvale police station where there was obviously no video set-up to record people there and I was asked to start writing my statement by Captain de Waal. MR PRINSLOO When you were interrogated by Captain Deetleffs, did you have an opportunity to read the Bible? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I was given a Bible yes, by the police. MR PRINSLOO And did Captain Deetleffs pass any remarks with regard to reading the Bible or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And did - were you given reading material whilst detained ...[inaudible] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And whilst you were detained in terms of Section 29 initially by - the interrogation by Captain Deetleffs, were you at some stage ill or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, the sleep depravation caused disorientation and my heart started to give me trouble and I asked to see a surgeon - a doctor and I saw my own doctor in the company of the district surgeon and I was given treatment for it and subsequently had to take pills. MR PRINSLOO Now, when Captain de Waal started his interrogation of you, did he inform you in terms of Judges Rules that you were not obliged to make a statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Captain de Waal made a statement which is contained in the police docket, is that correct? - which you have had access to, a statement by Captain de Waal. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Are you calling him as a witness? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Well now, why do you want to hand it in if he may not be called as a witness? MR PRINSLOO Because Mr Chairman, he refers to certain particular aspects that he warned her in terms of Judges Rules and as to how he interrogated her and what transpired. CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Is it necessary to hand in the statement just for those purposes? MR PRINSLOO Well, Mr Chairman, at least the Committee will then have a document in front of it as to what Captain de Waal said transpired as opposed to the witness says. JUDGE NGOEPE MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon Sir? JUDGE NGOEPE Were you not to hand this document to us now, would we still have it or have we already had it? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman with respect, the Committee will not be informed as to what transpired. At least information is now placed before the Committee as to what Captain de Waal says took place as opposed to what the witness says. JUDGE NGOEPE Are you wanting to create an issue out of this statement? MR PRINSLOO Well, Mr Chairman, the issue is for the start, the witness has already testified that she was not warned in terms of Judges Rules as said by Captain de Waal in that particular statement and also the witness will also explain to the Committee as to what transpired between her and Captain de Waal when she wrote various statements as opposed to - for instance, her detention file Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman with respect, in view of the fact that we have to make a full disclosure, we make that disclosure of what Captain de Waal says. CHAIRPERSON Well, whatever Captain de Waal says in this statement, of what value is it without him coming to give that evidence? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman with respect, this document was contained in the police docket. As Mr Bizos handed in the statement of Captain Deetleffs, it will have the same significance. If the Committee deem it appropriate to call Captain de Waal, it will be necessary then but if not - depending what the witness says. JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? JUDGE WILSON Does this statement that you want to hand in now, conflict with what Captain Deetleffs said. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, the version of the witness conflicts as to what Deetleffs recorded in his statement. JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON There must be some limit please, to try and hand in documents unless you are going to call a witness. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, in view of that I will not hand in the statements. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may take it back. JUDGE WILSON You will of course be at liberty to use this statement if Captain de Waal comes to give evidence. MR PRINSLOO ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Please proceed. MR PRINSLOO Just a moment Mr Chairman. Mrs Derby-Lewis, you made five statements whilst you were detained in terms of Section 29, is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO The first statement was made on the 27th of April and it appears at pages 149 to 163 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just hold it, hold it. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Pages what? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Right. MR PRINSLOO And then also a statement dated 27th of April, page 269 to 276 and a statement ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON Dated when? MR PRINSLOO 269 to 276 Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Date? MR PRINSLOO 27th of April. CHAIRPERSON The same date? JUDGE WILSON The same date? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Sorry, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The third one really - 28th of April ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON What pages are those? MR PRINSLOO Pages 240 to 259. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, and the fourth one? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON On the same day two statements? MR PRINSLOO JUDGE WILSON What was the last page? MR PRINSLOO 289 Mr Chairman. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And this was in your own handwriting? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO As it appears at page 164 onwards of the same statement which is hand-written and the introductory part of this statement at page 149 which follows, gives a background of your life and where you come from etc., is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And also information with regard to your involvement in the Department of Information and so on? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, at page 158, paragraph 65 "Kuba and I and Clive discussed that something should be done to rid the country of the communists and terrorists, like many concerned people we saw no other option" Is that correct, did you say that or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "To rid the country of the communists and terrorists" I remember in my taped recording which I saw the video tape of, after that when I was speaking to Mr de Waal - Mr Deetleffs, I said: "Well, we must get a homeland or something" In other words, it was simply a discussion of how we were going to avoid ANC rule. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, paragraph 66 of the same page, bottom of the page - bottom of the paragraph at least "Clive informed me that he and Kuba were discussing someone" and over the page: "on the list which I had obtained from Arthur Kemp. Clive said he and Kuba had discussed eliminating someone because of his communistic associations" Now, is that true or not and if it was said, when was it said to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, that is not true. MR PRINSLOO And now, you wrote it, why did you write that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because Mr de Waal told me to write it. MR PRINSLOO And now, turning to paragraph 72 of page 159 - the typed statement, at the bottom of the paragraph "It was obvious to me that Kuba had possibly done the deed and Clive and I later confirmed that Kuba had used the gun which Clive showed me one day in the house with a silencer. Clive and I then left. We were both of course shocked and the news and then went shopping" Now, is that true or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Why did you write it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because Mr de Waal told me to write it. CHAIRPERSON Please, allow the witness to give evidence please. How much of that paragraph is not true? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "It was obvious to me" onwards, which is the second last line at the bottom of page 159. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR PRINSLOO If you look at paragraph 74 - 74, I beg your pardon, what part of that is correct or incorrect? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The start "In January 1993, I telephoned Arthur Kemp at The Citizen in Johannesburg and said I was going to send him a list of names and I wanted a description of their houses and their addresses" "This was done after much serious thought and because Clive and I felt that unless something dramatic was done, the county would be controlled by communists. Clive and I therefore highlighted the names of people whom we believed to be the enemies of South Africa. Certain names were added to the list I sent to Arthur, such as Justice Goldstone and certain newspaper people" but I think in that context, certain names were added to the list. What he means was that I composed a list of core names and then I just added some to pad it, that was how I read this particular statement. CHAIRPERSON And that is not correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS That is not correct. MR PRINSLOO Now, paragraph 74 on the same page, the last four lines "Clive and Kuba decided on Chris Hani to be eliminated because of his particularly brutal record and his position as Chairman of the South African Communist Party, which they believed never should have been unbanned" What do you say to that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Right, 75, did you write that - why did you say that, is it correct or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Paragraph 76? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, it says The word: "enemies" was introduced by Mr Deetleffs during my first couple of days of interrogation, he basically - and it can be seen on the tapes, where he says: "Are they your enemies" MR PRINSLOO Now, paragraph 75, is that correct MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And paragraph 76, what do you say to that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, it basically is a repeat of previous paragraphs where it says "Conversation between Clive and I often got around to what could be done to rid South Africa of the communists and terrorists" CHAIRPERSON So, that is correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, page 208, paragraph 80, the last three lines which starts "Clive then said that it appeared to him as if Kuba had been set up because it was a rather amateurish job and Kuba had not for example changed the number plates and so forth" CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS 161. CHAIRPERSON Where are you reading from? JUDGE WILSON Paragraph 80. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PRINSLOO It should be 161. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, paragraph 81 starts "Clive and I both discussed how difficult it would be to actually go out and kill someone" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no. MR PRINSLOO "I asked Clive why he had become involved and he said Kuba had asked me in because he, Kuba, felt that something had to be done to stop the Government sell-out to the communists" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, that is not correct. MR PRINSLOO And the last three lines of the same paragraph MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Just in case I want to - there be no misunderstanding, when you say that these statements are not correct, are you trying to convey that they were the words of somebody else? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON These are the words of de Waal? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS If I may explain, while I was writing the five statements - the first statement started on the 27th, I handed to Mr de Waal because he said "Well, you will just be released, you will be a witness" And when he came - he came back and he said: "Colonel van Niekerk is not happy with this, it is not satisfactory, you must change this and this and this" So what has been broadcast throughout South Africa as being my words are in fact not correct and Mr de Waal actually states that clearly in his statement, that he actually asked me to change it. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON But van Niekerk did not instruct you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Yes, de Waal is the guy ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS But Mr de Waal came back and said "Colonel van Niekerk said: "This is not satisfactory" and so forth. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so anyway, the way in which you ought to write it is what de Waal said you should write? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. I may add that I kept notes of that as well, of what he told me to change but they got lost in the papers and so forth because I was under Section 29 then. CHAIRPERSON Do carry on. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, I refer you to page 272 of Exhibit R4 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON 272? MR PRINSLOO 272 Mr Chairman, paragraph 65. CHAIRPERSON Just hold it. Paragraph what? MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Paragraph? MR PRINSLOO Paragraph 65, page 272. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PRINSLOO JUDGE WILSON Same day? MR PRINSLOO Have you got it Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO "And when I say Kuba, Clive and I discussed that something should be done" et., does this not refer to a specific time and it continues statement? This particular paragraph 65, does it refer to paragraph 65 of your previous statements? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he came in and he mentioned certain paragraphs and I had to elucidate on the those paragraphs and the statement 269, Exhibit A114 is the elucidation or the clearing up of certain queries and directions that he gave me in terms of writing the statement and 272 refers to the previous paragraph 65. And I say here - when I say "Kuba and Clive and I discussed that something should be done" etc., this does not refer to a specific time. We, the three of us and others talked of what could happen if nothing was done to stop an ANC/SACP take-over. Many people talked about it, I do not refer to a specific time here - only as a background to our association. I should have perhaps said quote: "Kuba and Clive and others sometimes discussed that something should be done" Now, if I may add in that ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON "Rid the country of the communists" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE WILSON That was taken out? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. Well, he asked me to elaborate on it but by that time of course I must add that I was very tired and disorientated. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR PRINSLOO Now paragraph 66, this paragraph refers to 1993 while the previous paragraph refers to "The growth of our association with Kuba. Clive informed me in March 1993, that he and Kuba were planning something concerning someone on the list but I was not party to those discussions. I was however aware that discussions were taking place" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Was anything like this said by you on the video tapes during your interrogation by Mr Deetleffs? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Paragraph 72 which appears at page 273 ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE WILSON This is the new version? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE WILSON So, what has happened is, you have changed "Clive said he and Kuba had discussed eliminating somebody" And it now reads: "Clive informed me that he and Kuba were planning something concerning someone" MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, that is also not correct. JUDGE WILSON No, but it has removed the words: "eliminating". MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE WILSON ...[indistinct] your original version. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, but he still wanted me to admit that I knew that they were planning to do something, which is not correct. JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, page 273, paragraph 72, that particular paragraph Mrs Derby-Lewis, what do you say to that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No "I was not aware of his exact plans" And during the taped - the video tapes which I viewed at the week-end recently, Mr Deetleffs continued to ask me about a gun and in the end I said to him quite vehemently: "I know nothing about guns, why do you keep asking me about guns" I never saw a gun. MR PRINSLOO So Mrs Derby-Lewis, why did you then write in paragraph 72 about the gun? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because Mr Deetleffs ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, you say you knew nothing about guns ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS ...[inaudible] MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS You mean this paragraph? MR PRINSLOO Yes, paragraph 72, why did you write that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because they were obsessed with my knowing about a gun, that was part of the plan to implicate me. MR PRINSLOO And you did mention - during your interrogation of Deetleffs, that there was continuously reference made to a gun. Did you ever admit to Deetleffs - during interrogation, that a gun was used? MRS DERBY-LEWIS On the contrary, I became quite aggressive with him at one stage and I said "Why are you always talking about a gun? I know nothing about guns, at my age why would I sit here an lie to you" MR PRINSLOO Now, paragraph 73 - yes, yes, now if you read the first introductory part "Why did we get names on the list" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, who introduced this word "Why did we get names on the list" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I presume Mr de Waal because it was only me who requested those names, it was only me who received the names back. There was no ...[indistinct] on those names. MR PRINSLOO In addition, the rest of the paragraph MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And then it continues - the last paragraph of paragraph 73 "Clive and/or Kuba" Clive and/or Kuba? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO "Wanted a description of the residences and I can only assume that this was to determine what sort of security surrounded the houses" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, that is totally incorrect. MR PRINSLOO Now, is that your style of writing "And/or" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS That first sentence is incorrect but the last sentence is interesting because during my interrogation with Deetleffs, he said to me "Are you copying out" and I said: And that was purely on a spiritual, emotional level, it had nothing to do with copying out from plans or anything and that was on the tape. MR PRINSLOO Now, if you turn over the page to page 274, paragraph 74 "Clive told me sometime in March that he and Kuba had decided on Chris Hani to be eliminated" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And why did you write it in your own writing Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Hurry up, we must go to the Attorney General" then he said I would be released on the 30th when my 10 days was up. And I said: "And what is going to happen to me after that"? He said: "You will be a witness" They were his words: "You will be a witness" CHAIRPERSON That appears on the tapes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Right. JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, Mrs Derby-Lewis, paragraph 74 as I read it ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Paragraph what? JUDGE NGOEPE 74. MR PRINSLOO 74. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes? JUDGE NGOEPE Pertinently incriminates your husband. MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because Mr - may say something to the Committee, my feeling is that the police wanted to implicate me when I was first taken in and you will see it in that statement that I wrote in prison on the 2nd of May, down at the bottom of the first page. One of the journalists phoned me two days after my husband was taken and said "The police told them that I was in it up to my neck" JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, if I may ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, Mr de Waal ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE You may have to realise that I was trying to get some information from you on something which is important. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE I wanted to know, why did you falsely implicate your husband? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, they told me to write it. JUDGE NGOEPE And you agreed to write it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE What did you think they wanted it for - the police - Mr de Waal? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Pardon? JUDGE NGOEPE What did you think Mr de Waal wanted this information for? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr de Waal - there were phases in the interrogation, the first was "Hurry up and sign this" This was within the first three hours of being taken, I refused to that. "You do this and you do that" And of course they wanted to implicate me because then I was charged with murder on the 30th of April. So I could see - I see now in retrospect - now that this documentation is before me because I never saw it before, I see now what I believe to be their plan to implicate me. JUDGE NGOEPE When you implicated your husband, what did you think the police would want that information for? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE Did you think he was already in it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Neither of you will get bail, your husband will get 15 years" JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GAY DERBY-LEWIS (s.u.o.) MR PRINSLOO: ...[inaudible] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO But in as far as you were concerned? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no. MR PRINSLOO And why did you say that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO However, when ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON "Because he clearly saw the implications of the list" Now, you are saying ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Yes, you wrote the words. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON And you say that you wrote that because you were advised to say so. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR PRINSLOO And who advised you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr de Waal. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO But this of putting two and two together ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Further down the page, the third paragraph, second line from the top "In Cape Town I put the envelope with my files in the office. I did not show the list to Clive in Cape Town" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And then further down "There was no urgency to discuss the list nor any opportunity" Was that correct or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Then we turn to page 276, that would be paragraph 81, the second line MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, that is not true. CHAIRPERSON The whole of that paragraph or just the last sentence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The whole paragraph. MR PRINSLOO When you say the whole paragraph, is that from ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS I am not trying to take the blame away from Clive - I mean, I never discussed blame with anyone. JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE WILSON And they - I gather from the heading of this statement that these are all replies to queries from Colonel van Niekerk, now the queries themselves do not appear ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON van der Walt. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. JUDGE WILSON Colonel van Niekerk. CHAIRPERSON Is it van Niekerk? JUDGE WILSON Yes. CHAIRPERSON So, these are in reply to questions by Colonel van Niekerk but put to you by de Waal? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR PRINSLOO Just a moment please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Page 240, paragraph what? MR PRINSLOO It starts at page 248, paragraph 36 at the bottom and it goes over the page to page 249. Now, at page 249 Mrs Derby-Lewis, it reads: MRS DERBY-LEWIS Leanings, I think. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Page 250 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Hold it, just that sentence on page 249, is it? MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Two sentences rather, you say they were not correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Page 250, paragraph 42, towards the first section of paragraph 42, the last three lines MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And with reference to the exact plans? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Paragraph 42 yes, Mr Chairman. The last two lines on that same page: "That night on TV we heard that a gun had been used which had been stolen from the airforce armoury and this is how Clive and I confirmed that it must have been the same gun which Clive had given him and the gun which Clive had showed me one day in the house (with a silencer)" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, that is not correct. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And why did you write that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because Mr de Waal - as I mentioned before, was trying to implicate me as far as the gun is concerned and here he does. MR PRINSLOO "Clive said he could not believe Kuba had been so amateurish driving around in a red car and not changing his number plates etc." What do you say to that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no, I never discussed number plates with anybody. MR PRINSLOO Was there any subsequent discussion, subsequent to the assassination of Mr Hani between you and your husband with regard to that particular aspect? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Which particular aspect? MR PRINSLOO "Clive said he could not believe that Kuba had been so amateurish driving around in a red car and not changing his number plates etc." MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, Clive said that he got a shock when he heard about Kuba, he never talked about being amateurish or driving around in a red car or changing any number plates. MR PRINSLOO The next paragraph, paragraph 43, the third line "This was done after much serious thought and because Clive and I felt that unless something dramatic was done, the country would be controlled by communists. Clive and I therefore highlighted the names of people whom we believed to be the enemies of South Africa" What do you say to that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO So you say that was not the discussion between yourself and your husband? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no. MR PRINSLOO Now, the last two lines of that same paragraph MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Why did you write that Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, again I was asked to write that, I was told to put it in. MR PRINSLOO Then ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Bottom of the page, fourth line from the bottom MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And was there any reason for secrecy? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Over the page 252, paragraph 44 "Certain of the names on the list we believed to be the enemies of South Africa. Clive and I had made plans at the beginning that some sort of arrangements should be made to liquidate one or perhaps more leaders of the ANC and the South African Communist Party" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I never had any - not true, I never had any plans ever involving myself to liquidate anybody. MR PRINSLOO Now, why did you say that Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because I was told to say it. MR PRINSLOO Now, the same paragraph 44 but the second paragraph of that paragraph, third line from the bottom "Clive and Kuba decided on Chris Hani to be eliminated because of his particularly brutal record and his position as Chairman of the South African Communist Party, which they believed never should have been unbanned" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I had no knowledge of Clive and Kuba deciding on anything. MR PRINSLOO And why did you write that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS For the same reason as I have described, I was asked to write this by Mr de Waal. MR PRINSLOO The paragraph following on that MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, Clive and Kuba never asked me to send a list Arthur Kemp, I did that on my own and I did not ask the security - anything about security with the houses, I just asked for the addresses and the photographs if possible. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO The next paragraph MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Then the last paragraph of paragraph 44 "Clive told me some time in March that he and Kuba had decided on Chris Hani as the person to be eliminated" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, that is not true. MR PRINSLOO Paragraph 45 MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO "The other enemies" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, that is not true, I never talked about enemies. Mr Deetleffs introduced the word enemies during the cross-examination - during the interrogation at the beginning as I mentioned before. MR PRINSLOO With reference to Mr de Waal, has this statement ...[inaudible] to him, what do say about the words used here "Other enemies" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, clearly Mr de Waal got the word: "enemies" from Mr Deetleffs. Maybe they ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Why do you say that he got them from Deetleffs? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, because they must have colluded. CHAIRPERSON They must have? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because that was the whole point of the interrogation, was to come up with some kind of a story which could be presented to the Attorney General in order to justify charging me - this is how I see it. MR PRINSLOO Was there at any stage reference made by Captain de Waal who interrogated you, that your statement or version was in conflict of the version which was given by your husband? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, on many occasions he came to me and he said MR PRINSLOO Still at page 253, starting at the bottom of page 252, paragraph 46 MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Fax what you have" and then he said: MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, it was the 29th of January 1993. MR PRINSLOO Paragraph 47, the second paragraph "I presume Arthur wanted to see me rather than just faxing me the list because he saw the implications of the list and felt he should not fax it to me" MRS DERBY-LEWIS "No, I would rather give it to you because I want to see you" That was the reason why we met. MR PRINSLOO And when you actually met Arthur Kemp, did he say anything to you with regard to implications on that list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Absolutely nothing, we never discussed it. He gave it to me in an envelope and I put it in my handbag and we had tea and discussed his life and what he was going to do. MR PRINSLOO Page 254, second paragraph of paragraph 48, fourth line from the top - I beg your pardon, from the bottom MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Clive must have given the list to Kuba after that" I have no idea when Clive gave Kuba the list. MR PRINSLOO Now, paragraph 50 at the bottom of the page "The next day it was confirmed in the press that Kuba had been arrested. Clive then said to me it looked as if Kuba had been set up because it was a rather amateurish job, Kuba had not for example changed the number plates and so forth" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Did you ever have any opportunity to speak to Walus after he was arrested, before you made this statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Was there information in the press or anywhere where this information could have been conveyed that for instance, Kuba had not for example, changed the number plates and so forth? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, paragraph 51, page 255 MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And did you ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Paragraph 51, the fourth line from the bottom of the last paragraph of 51 MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Clive told me he had not expected Kuba to do the job" is also not true. MR PRINSLOO And if you look at page 256, paragraph 56, middle of the page MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Kuba would not talk" MR PRINSLOO "When I gave the list to my husband there was no writing on it, now there is numbers next to the names and addresses and the registration number BMW525i, PWY525T written on page 13. The typed part of the pages is the same as I gave it to my husband. There is number 3 written next to the name of Chris Hani on page - it looks like, B now" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I never gave the list to my husband and as I have already testified, there was nothing on the list when I brought it home. MR PRINSLOO The next paragraph four MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Did you say that to Deetleffs - as was stated here or at least, did Deetleffs show you the list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, correct. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, is it also correct that a detention file - referred to as a detention file on yourself, was kept by the police in terms of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And it contains information pertaining to your detention, treatment and complaints that you had or their observations? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO I ask leave to hand this in as Exhibit Z Mr Chairman, I will refer to it. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR PRINSLOO That would be a detention file Mr Chairman, of Gabriella, Maverna Derby-Lewis. I will now lead certain evidence with regard to certain information in that file on the witness. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And the paragraph following that also refers to reading material and ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR PRINSLOO "Visited Mrs Derby-Lewis, gave her supper, she only ate the fruit, she had no complaints" Is that correct Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? JUDGE NGOEPE Page 6, you said? MR PRINSLOO JUDGE NGOEPE The date? MR PRINSLOO And the date is the 25th of April and right at the top of the page And the rest of that page then deals with her doctor - private doctor, is that correct Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Can you read that Mrs Derby-Lewis? there is something that is not clear. "complained that she had a headache and that she had stomach ache and she wished to see Doctor Latsky" MR PRINSLOO Is that any mention made - as far as you know, by de Waal? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "She has no complaints" MR PRINSLOO And the same page, the entry the 25th of April, 11H40 Is that correct, did you say that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And this goes from page 7 to page 8 Mr Chairman. Page 10 Mr Chairman, the date 25th of April at 6p.m., the third line Mrs Derby-Lewis, during your detention - in terms of Section 29, is it correct that Captain de Waal requested you to point out a particular place where you allegedly received the list from Arthur Kemp? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he did. MR PRINSLOO "During an interview with Mrs Derby-Lewis, she ...[indistinct] herself no longer prepared to point out the place - interview conducted by Captain Louw in his office" Is it correct that Captain Louw was not attached to the security branch? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And when you saw Captain Louw, what did he say to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I was told by Mr de Waal to go and point out something and that Captain Louw would go with me or send somebody from the Edenvale Police Station to accompany me. When I got to Captain Louw, he said to me "You have a choice, you need not go" and I said: "Well, do I now have a choice"? and he said: "Yes" so I refused to go. MR PRINSLOO In each of your statements which were placed before the Commission, in none of the statements does it appear - from the statement itself, that you were ever warned in terms of the Judges Rules by Captain de Waal, is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO But from the writing on your statement. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO It does not appear from in writing from your statements, that you were warned in terms of Judges Rules. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, it was never given any options, only the option of MR PRINSLOO And if de Waal had given you that warning to say that you were not obliged to say anything but should you say anything, it would be taken down in writing and may be used as evidence, would you have exercised that option or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I would not have exercised that option. MR PRINSLOO Why not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Did de Waal give you an option to remain silent? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO What did he require? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, on the 30th of April when - I beg your pardon, before I proceed, the document Exhibit Y1 which you compiled with regard to the treatment meted out to you by the police whilst detained in terms of Section 29, you also made a note with reference to what transpired between you and Captain Louw - just a moment Mr Chairman, at page 8 of Exhibit Y1 Mr Chairman MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, on the 30th of April 1993 you were exempted from the provisions of Section 29 and you were then interviewed by Detective Warrant Officer Holmes who was the investigating officer in this case. I now show you a document which will be referred to as Exhibit AA Mr Chairman. Mrs Derby-Lewis, in this statement Exhibit AA the Detective Warrant Officer - according to the document, informed you of your rights and asked you whether you understood it and at page three you said: "Yes" and then after your signature on page two the question is: "What do you wish to do, make a statement, only answer questions or remain silent"? and your reply was: "Remain silent" Is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And why did you exercise that right at that stage whereas previously you made statements to the police? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I exercised the right because he gave me a choice and previously I had no choice. MR PRINSLOO And after you were exempted from the provisions of Section 29, you were then taken to court and you appeared in court, is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO That is the Magistrates Court? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO You were then charged with the murder of Mr Chris Hani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO Now, subsequent to your appearance in court, is it correct that the Attorney General - Mr van Leerus at the time, issued a certificate in which you were refused the right to make an application for bail, is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO In terms of the ...[indistinct] Act? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Now, during your detention in the prison, you wrote the document Y1 which you already testified to before the Commission and subsequent to the trial you wrote a document which is referred to as: "Ons Eie"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS At the end of December 1993, an Afrikaans magazine called: "One Eie" asked me to write an article about my detention, which I wrote and then they translated into Afrikaans. This is another record of what happened to me in detention and it was done at a time when there was no thought of a Truth Commission or anything like that, it was even done before the ANC took over in April 1994. MR PRINSLOO I ask leave to hand this document in Mr Chairman, as Exhibit AB - the original is available. CHAIRPERSON What is the date of that document? MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON What is the date? MR PRINSLOO The date of this document is February 1994. MRS DERBY-LEWIS It was published in February 1994 but the article was written in December 1993. MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, at your trial which followed, no statements made in terms of Section 29 were used by the State. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Is it also correct that at your trial the police docket at that stage, was not made available to defence at all? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO And the information which you compiled and put into Exhibits Y1 and 2 were done in custody without the statements which are now before the Commission? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, in as far as the articles are concerned which you intended writing pertaining to the list which was presented to Mr Kemp and the one you received thereupon, you said you wanted to write as to how people lived. Apart from those people on the list, did you have any other persons in mind whom you wanted to write about? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO The public meetings which you attended of the Conservative Party subsequent to your release and after your acquittal till to date, was there ever any repudiation of the conduct of yourself, your husband or Walus, by the CP? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, on the contrary we were always well received by the Conservative Party. I still remained an active member of the Party, I rejoined the system as it was. MR PRINSLOO Just a moment please Mr Chairman. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS He replaced Mr Tom Langley and Mr Schalk Pienaar replaced Mr Kas Uys, both of whom were senior members of the Party, so my husband was - then at that stage, at a very high level in the Party. MR PRINSLOO So, did he continue to hold an executive position in the CP? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he was part of a - there were seven committees set up to make a policy of the Party and he was made Chairman of one of those committee together Mr ...[indistinct] van der Merwe. May I read a small paragraph on this issue? MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS From The Beeld. MR PRINSLOO Yes, you may do so. MRS DERBY-LEWIS "In November last year together with Mr Schalk Pienaar, CPL MP for Potgietersrust was elected to the CP Executive in the place of Mr Thomas Langley and Mr Kas Uys, two founder members of the CP. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, I undertake to make copies of this document, I only have one but I believe the actual report of The Beeld was handed in by Mr Bizos at some stage. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I was a journalist and I wrote articles in the newspaper, so I was very attuned to the way the Party felt and since the unbanning of the SACP and the ANC in 1990, the Party stepped up a campaign of alerting people as to what dangers lay ahead and that was handed in our bundle - I think it was Addendum C, whereby there were extracts from The Patriot. MR PRINSLOO In as far as the Conservative Party is concerned Mrs Derby-Lewis, was there at any stage - prior to the assassination of Mr Hani, the belief that the ANC and the Communist Party will take power in this country? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, very much so. The Editorials of The Patriot and the discussions amongst the people were - people were very afraid because - as I mentioned before, Mr de Klerk had gone ahead without a mandate, so the Party itself was militant and the people - the members, were also militant. In terms of what Mr Bizos refers to as the: "brandy and coke brigade" who sit in the bars and talk about all the things that they were going to do, there were more serious discussions than that but it was generally agreed within the right that anything that would be discussed or planned would be kept to an absolute minimum need to know basis. But there were definitely discussions, people were planning resistance, the climate was extremely tense and people were really afraid of what was coming - of what they knew was coming, it was a genuine fear. MR PRINSLOO The Conservative Party, did they spell out that they would oppose the ANC/SACP coming into power or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, on many occasions they said: "They must be stopped, we will stop them". It was discussed - not only in The Patriot, it was discussed at the various meetings and councils and congresses of the Party and in September 1992, it was decided that - a motion was passed that a freedom could not be attained through passive means, it would attained through active resistance. MR PRINSLOO What was the perception in the minds of the White electorate - particularly the right, with regard to the fact that the SACP/ANC would take power? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, in as far as Mr Arthur Kemp is concerned, did you at any stage learn from him why you were charged or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why what? MR PRINSLOO Why the witness Mr Chairman, was charged in this particular case. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, just after I was given bail I met Mr Kemp and he told me that he had discussed with Mr Holmes - Warrant Officer Holmes, he said: "Why did you arrest Gay"? and Warrant Officer Holmes said that the only reason he was charging me was that, quote: "So we can use her test ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Is Mr Kemp going to be called to corroborate this statement? - a serious allegation is being made against an officer, are we going to hear Mr Kemp or are we only going to have the hearsay evidence of the witness? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman ...[intervention] MR BIZOS We have been patient for a long time in the production of hearsay ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS But I think that the time has come that we should ask you to intervene and not allow the witness to make out a case for herself without primary evidence being led. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO I will retract that Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRINSLOO Just a second please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO As you please Mr Chairman. Just a moment please. Thank you Mr Chairman, that concludes the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions you wish to put to the witness? MS VAN DER WALT I have no questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos? CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS Mrs Derby-Lewis, you said to your counsel that when giving evidence before the Judge President of the Transvaal - as it then was Justice Eloff, you prevaricated. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR BIZOS The Chairman asked you whether that meant that you lied. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR BIZOS Will you please enumerate the lies that you told the Judge President of the Transvaal? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS The first one? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes, what was the lie there? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, page 515 of the court record. CHAIRPERSON What is the point? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Pardon? CHAIRPERSON On what point did you lie? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I have made a note here ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Can I just read that without you going through the record? CHAIRPERSON No. I think that you want to know just precisely what points on which she ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Yes, on what points did you lie? Please tell us. MRS DERBY-LEWIS The lie that I told on two or three occasions during the testimony was "Did you give the list" MRS DERBY-LEWIS There were - these, yes sorry, it concerned the fact as to whether Clive had given Kuba the list. MR BIZOS And you lied about that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I did. MR BIZOS Did you lie in order to protect your husband? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I did. MR BIZOS Are you not lying now - through your teeth, in order to get amnesty for your husband? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Definitely not Mr Bizos, definitely not. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you lie about the gun? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you tell Judge President Eloff the whole truth about your discussions with your husband and Mr Walus about the gun? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I never discussed a gun with Mr Walus or my husband. MR BIZOS Was that the truth? MRS DERBY-LEWIS That was the truth. MR BIZOS Did you lie to Judge President Eloff about the policy of the Conservative Party in relation to violence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS In 1992, that was an option, it was decided upon at the Kimberly Congress. MR BIZOS Please answer the question. MRS DERBY-LEWIS I have answered the question. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS It was never the policy of the Conservative Party - it was never part of the policy, to use murder as a political objective. MR BIZOS Or violence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Or violence. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS What was the policy of the Conservative Party, one of violence or non- violence in April 1993? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The policy of the Conservative Party in April 1993 was set by the Congress in September 1992, where active resistance was declared an option. MR BIZOS Who was to decide whether that option should come into force or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The Party. MR BIZOS Did the Party - before April 1993, decide that violence was now an option? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Not that I know of. MR BIZOS Not that you know of. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Not officially. MR BIZOS Well, knowledge is knowledge, what unofficial special knowledge did you have about the Conservative Party having a policy of violence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you understand that - that the Conservative Party was speaking with two tongues? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS did you consider that statement as a statement that the option that was mentioned in Kimberly in 1992 was to be exercised in April 1993? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS No, you were the information - well informed person of the Conservative Party, please give us a straight answer. MRS DERBY-LEWIS That is a straight answer. MR BIZOS Was the police - let me finish please, was the policy of the Conservative Party by April 1993, one of violence or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I answered that question a minute ago, I said no unequivocally. MR BIZOS No, absolutely not, but you added that you had the ear of the Deputy Leader of the Party. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well, I thought that you said that he said at a meeting that: "We do not put all our cards on the table", what did you understand by that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS He said to 300 people that: "We do not talk openly about or policy, is that what it is? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, he did not say that. MR BIZOS What did he say? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS How did you understand that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. Now, when you gave evidence before Judge Eloff, did you tell the truth about the policy of the Conservative Party and your personal attitude to it in relation to violence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Right. MRS DERBY-LEWIS And why I did so. MR BIZOS Can we accept that everything else that you told Judge Eloff, you will not accept as being true? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I would say so, he picked out that particular point and he said I prevaricated, he said I was not truthful: "She was protecting her husband probably" and he was 100% right. MR BIZOS JUDGE WILSON Can you say what Volume it is? MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, will that be pages 6, 7 and 9 in brackets or the open numbers? MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] the others are found in the record. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR BIZOS Should you not have the record Mr Chairman? JUDGE WILSON In brackets we have page - or I have, page (6), (7), (8) and it then goes to page 681. The other number given is page 538 and it jumps to 541. MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO We have a copy Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Which has those pages? MR PRINSLOO MR BIZOS We have one copy Mr Chairman, which one member of the Committee can follow. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] propose reading out that passage to put your question to her? MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] page (6), (7), (8), line 25 - we will make sure that those pages of photostatted and put in your records Mr Chairman. "As far as the record is concerned, both Mr Faan Venter and Mr Darrel testified that it was discussed at Conservative Party Meetings where Mr Darrel was present and where your husband addressed the audience, that there is a possibility that licences that are - that had been issued might be recalled and that people will be left unarmed" Are you aware of that? Oh, 1993, sorry, 1993. I beg your pardon, no, I beg your pardon, sorry - (6), (7), (9), yes: "The Conservative Party has even made public statements - our spokesman of Law and Order, Mr Schalk Pienaar expressed the possibility in public statements" Is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, you mean ...[intervention] MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "That was in order to stockpile weapons" Was that in accordance with the CP policy or with your personal, political intervenes? "I would not say the CP had not ? view, the CP had not made a ruling on that, we had had a congress in September 1992 in Kimberly - a general congress and three resolutions were passed, the first was that the option of the election be the first sort, then second was negotiations. Is that your answer and is it true? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "So there was nothing sinister in the fact that people were stockpiling weapons"? - "No, not at all" "It was not intended to go and - say for example, to murder Mr Hani"? - "No, everybody was talking about it - Mr de Vos, could you reach" "The last ...[indistinct] aspect we dealt Mrs Derby-Lewis, is the question of stockpiling and you explained to the court what the decisions were at the CP Congress in Kimberly. According to your own knowledge, was there a general attitude amongst your supporters to obtain weapons and to stockpile that for some future event"? - Yes" Is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "But that event was not a certain fact"? - "No, it was - what is the word, I cannot think of the word, it was a plan - contingency plan, in other words it was not a policy, the Party did not say: "Go out and stockpile weapons but the point was that they did not trust the Government. There had been a record of lies over the last five years and they would say one thing and do another, so one felt that any guarantees that were given were not worth the paper they were written on. So, the general feeling amongst Conservatives was that we had to look after ourselves in the event of something happening". Are you happy with that answer and is it true? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Good. "But what course should be taken in future was still to be decided"? - "Yes, we are all members of a Party and we take instructions from the Party" Are you happy with that answer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, that is the way I feel. MR BIZOS Thank you. "Now at that stage, during the or before the 10th of April, was the Conservative Party still involved in negotiations at the World Trade Centre"? - "Yes, that is true". Are you happy with that answer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "And do you have any knowledge when did the Conservative Party withdraw from the negotiations" - "If I remember correctly it was last month or a month or two ago, I am not sure" Was that your answer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "So it was - intervenes - it was some months after April" - "Yes, yes" "1992"? - "Yes" - court - "993, Mr de Vos - Oh 1993, sorry, sorry, 1993" You were giving evidence during October 1993, is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS And when you said that the Conservative Party was still negotiating until a month or a month or two ago, that would not take us further back than August 1993, would that be correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I think it finished in July 1993. MR BIZOS Well after April anyway? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS ...[inaudible] MR BIZOS " "Now you have read in the newspapers I suppose, what was said about murder, so-called conspiracy etc."? - "Yes" "Did you" - "Yes, I read lots of things in lots of newspapers" "And have you read more in the newspapers than what you have heard in court"? - "Yes, I have been convicted and tried by the newspapers" "And does that also apply to accused number one and two"? - "Well, the three of us have" "Now, if you were in fact involved in a conspiracy, would you have organised the murder of Mr Hani in the way it was described in court"? - "Well, I would not have organised any murder" "But it seems to be to be as if the man who murdered Mr Hani virtually acted on his own on that day - there was no getaway car or anything to that effect, would you agree with that" - "Well on the face of it, yes" Now can we please go on to page (682). "Are you aware of any common purpose that was formed between accused number one to murder Mr Hani?" - "No" "Are you aware of any conspiracy between accused number one and two and yourself, to murder Mr Hani or the people mentioned in Exhibit J? - "No" "Now, on the 12th when the list was discussed, when Mr Kemp was at your premises, did you get the impression that accused number two was quite surprised when the question about the list came up and it was alleged that that was the same that was in Mr" - "Ja, actually we had - oh, sorry, we had discussed earlier. When I went to buy the newspaper and I came back with The Beeld and I saw that they had specified in The Beeld that there were some journalists names and there were nine names and so forth and I discussed it and then my husband and I" - intervenes "And was he surprised to hear about this"? - "Yes, we were shocked and -well, we were shocked" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS And was it part of your case that you never asked your husband - either after the murder before your arrest or after your release from arrest or whilst preparing for trial, or whilst you were speaking to him during the court adjournments, that you never asked him anything about the list, anything about the gun and anything about the manner in which he was or may have been involved in this murder? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS That was your case? MRS DERBY-LEWIS May I elaborate on that answer? MR BIZOS Yes, if you must. MRS DERBY-LEWIS We were told by our attorneys that we were never to discuss the case at all with anyone. MR BIZOS Yes, and you observed that instruction? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I was in jail for three and a half months, so I never discussed it then and then when I came out on bail I used to visit my husband and he was always in the company of somebody at the prison and we subsequently found out that our visits were taped in any event. And then when we were in court they were brought in and they were taken downstairs, there was very little time to discuss the case and in any event the attorney told us not to discuss the case. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS But, after the murder, no attorney told you not to discuss with your husband whether or not he had any involvement in this murder. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, the attorneys told us not to discuss the case with anybody and I was never in a position to discuss anything with my husband without anybody present. MR BIZOS Is this before your arrest? JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS "...[inaudible] so that is the first time you heard about the pistol and did you discuss this pistol with your husband - this issue of the firearm"? - "No" Are you with me at 686? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. Sorry, 686? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Oh, yes, yes. MR BIZOS "I discussed it with him later on when we were travelling in the police car going to the courts" - "Yes" "When was this, before or after the charge sheet had been served on you"? - "No, we were already in jail - when you were - in jail and we just discussed the case" "And what did your husband say about the pistol"? - "Nothing" "Nothing"? - "No" Is that the truth? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS No, the question was - whether in view of your answers, did it occur to you that one of the reasons that you must have been disbelieved by the Judge, was because of your answers in relation to the gun? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, not at all, it never occurred to me whatsoever. MR BIZOS "Not a word"? - "Well, we were in the car with eight policemen" "You were having one car, eight policemen, that is quite a package. What type of car was this"? - "It was an Inyala" "Oh, in that one of the police"? - "The police van yes"? "The big one"? - "Yes" "But you say accused number one found time to say something to you about the pistol but not your husband"? - "Correct" "And did your husband ever say anything to you about the pistol"? - "No" Then further on: "Did you ask him about it"? - "No, no never" "Never"? - "Since he was arrested it was always a piece of plastic between us at the jail - was sitting in the Inyala" "Even here during court session, did you ever ask him about these allegations" - "No" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Were you asking me a question? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Mr Bizos, whereabouts are you now? MR BIZOS Last line 687. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "And you also did not tell him anything about the list which had the names on"? - "Yes, I discussed it with him on the 12th" "On the 12th, this was after it was published in the newspapers"? - "Correct" "Yes, you drew your attention to it"? - "Pardon"? "Did you draw his attention to it or what"? - "Yes, I drew his attention" "...[inaudible] Smith testify that he fitted the silencer and gave it to Darrel"? - "No, I do not know Mr Smith at all, I was not in Cape Town, I know nothing about that part" "And you heard the ballistics evidence by the ballistics expert that this particular weapon, Exhibit 2 was the one that killed - on his evidence, the deceased and did you ask your husband about the weapon then"? - "We discussed the evidence, yes - that it was highly technical nature, we could not understand it" "I see, so at no stage did you talk to him about the weapon"? - "No" "And he did not volunteer anything to you either"? - "No" "Well, I have to put it to you that it is improbable that you never discussed this vital piece of information with him and that is what I am going to argue later, that you are not telling the truth, the truth when you say that you never discussed the question of his possession of the weapon that killed Mr Hani, with him"? - "No, I did not" Were those your answers? MRS DERBY-LEWIS They were correct, yes. MR BIZOS And you repeat them here? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I repeat them here. MR BIZOS And you have nothing further to add in relation to it and you want your credibility - you are happy to have your credibility on this issue, decided by the Committee on the questions and answers that I have read out to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS May I make a comment? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Finished? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS The pressure that you speak of - of Section 29 or the alleged trickery of the police or any other pressure that was put on you during your period of detention, could not persuade you to say anything about the gun? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Is the answer that all the pressure did not induce you to make a - to even falsely say that you had some knowledge about this gun? MRS DERBY-LEWIS But even if I had falsely said it, they would have immediately known that it was false knowledge because I have no technical knowledge of a gun. There was simply no evidence at all that I had seen a gun or discussed a gun. MR BIZOS Now, let us ...[intervention] JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry Mr Bizos, any questions relating to the gun, do you understand as being technical questions in relation to the operations of the gun or were they simply questions in relation to whether or not a gun was used in this particular case? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON But the question I find difficult is not whether you were interested in guns or not but whether you were interested in whether your husband had supplied a gun to murder someone. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, in fact my husband was taken downstairs and we were not allowed into the cell, we used to stand outside but there were a group of us. MR BIZOS What group? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, it was Kuba and the attorneys and one or two friends had come down but the police insisted that my husband and Mr Walus be placed in the cell, so we used to stand there with the people and have a sandwich. MR BIZOS In the long passages? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, there were cells down underneath the Johannesburg Supreme Court and we stood outside the cell, they were locked in the cell. MR BIZOS You were on bail and he was in the cell? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, correct. MR BIZOS And were you not concerned whether or not you were married to a murderer as alleged by the State or an innocent man that you believed him to be? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I left it to the attorneys and the courts to decide what had happened. MR BIZOS Were you or were you not interested whether or not your husband was a murderer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Of course I was interested and concerned. JUDGE NGOEPE Why did you not ask him? - such a loving couple that you were. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON No, please. Mr Bizos, please put your questions in a proper way. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] absolutely - were you not absolutely burning with a desire to find out whether or not the allegations in the indictment by your husband that - particularly that he supplied the gun, that he supplied a gun with a silencer, were you not interested in finding out? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Not at all. MR BIZOS Not at all. And you are serious in that answer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS I asked him that on the 12th. MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS This was before the indictment was handed to us. MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Before we were even arrested. On the 12th when I bought The Beeld in the morning, I saw that they had mentioned the names of journalists in the list and I adduced that it was my list. And then when I came home I asked my husband: "Is this our list and how did this man get it" and he said: "I gave it to him". MR BIZOS I see, is that what your evidence before Judge Eloff was? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Certainly. MR BIZOS You were prepared to defeat the ends of justice in relation to the acquittal of - possible acquittal of your husband, by lying - deliberately lying? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, the attorneys told us that the court would find out anyway what happened, that I was trying to protect him and I admitted to that to this Committee. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well, ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sir, may I finish? MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Now, you decided to go into the witness box when your husband decided not to go into the ...[inaudible] MRS DERBY-LEWIS That was his decision on the advice of his attorneys. MR BIZOS Yes. And not only did you lie about what your husband had said about the list but you also became very inventive during the course of your evidence, you made up a whole scenario as to how he probably picked it up from your glass table. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Where did you suggest he got the possible theory that Mr Walus picked up the list from the table by accident? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I have no idea. MR BIZOS Did the question come as a complete surprise to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Well, did you reflect on it before answering it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS And when you said that it was possible, you knew that in fact that had not happened? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS I want to take you to the bottom of page 693 of your evidence - before I do that, was Mr Kemp assured - in your presence, that he must not worry because Walus would not talk? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Who testified to that fact? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Kemp. MR BIZOS Did you ask you husband to refresh your memory for the purposes of this hearing? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS If you do not recall, did you ask your husband - for the purposes of this hearing ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS Why not? We know that your husband was guilty of murder ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS On the 12th ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Let me finish. We know that you had drawn up the list, we know that Mr Kemp had something to do with the list and it all involved Mr Walus who had been arrested three days before, once three people involved in that way, why would you not have discussed your defence on the morning of the 12th? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because there was nothing to defend, neither Arthur nor I had become involved in that list for any sinister purpose - there was nothing to defend. MR BIZOS But why would your husband not say to you and/or to Mr Kemp, that the police are going to come - that you agree with, you expected the police to come? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, because the list was in the newspaper and we were worried. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Definitely not. MR BIZOS Well, we know that two people now admit that they conspired to murder, why should conspirators or at least one of them - when a material witness is present like Mr Kemp, why would they loose the opportunity to try and work out a false defence for themselves? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because their attorneys told them not to testify, Mr Kemp - what he said was completely correct. MR BIZOS Did you consult attorneys before the 12th of April Madam? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well, you have admitted to telling lies under oath in respect of some matters. MRS DERBY-LEWIS I told one lie under oath and I admitted it and I said why I did it. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Bizos, you make the mistake of imputing to somebody who tells one lie, that they are a perennial liar, that is not the case. I particularly brought this matter up before the Committee today so that they would see what I had done. MR BIZOS "Yes, you are an experienced journalist Have the members of the Committee got this portion, 693 Mr Chairman? "You are an experienced journalist and you had those insights and you knew that this would very easily lead to civil war or something like that in this country - the potential was there"? - "Correct" "Yes, and obviously if you love this country so much, one would have expected you - as you profess, one would have expected you to have taken immediate steps to give whatever assistance you can to the police to try and unravel this particular murder"? - "But no, I repeat, we were apprehensive and very afraid" "Well, I want to suggest to you that your conduct rather indicates the conduct of somebody who has got something to hide" - "Well, you entitled to your suggestions Sir" Do you want to add anything in relation to that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS No, very well. Now, can we please go to page 697 "Are you one of those people who refuse to bow to the yoke of communism and ...[indistinct]"? - "Very definitely" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, what line is that? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Thank you. MR BIZOS "Those were negotiations, election, election and passive or active resistance"? - "Correct" "And if it had come to active resistance, I take it in your mind said that you were such that you have participated in that"? - "If the Conservative Party had decided upon it, I am a follower and a believer and I would have done so" Did you say that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Is that a clear statement of fact, that at that time the Conservative Party had not decided to go over to active resistance? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes, I know that this question was asked before the Act providing for amnesty was passed and this is why we will argue to the Committee that your answer there was the truth, can we accept it as a fact that at the time - in April, that the Conservative Party had not decided to go over to active resistance? Do you agree with that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, the Conservative Party had decided upon a mobilisation plan which was ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Answer the question please ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO With respect Mr Chairman, the witness has not been given the opportunity to answer the question ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS I will answer the question as I see fit. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON "The Party had already embarked on a mobilisation campaign" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] the suggestion of the word mobilisation? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Is the statement - as it stands question and answer, true or false? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Absolutely true. MR BIZOS Thank you. JUDGE WILSON What do you mean by mobilisation? MRS DERBY-LEWIS After the September congress, the Party decided to mobilise, in other words to begin to prepare for active resistance and a mobilisation strategy was set in place and 17 or 18 categories were defined, some of which were defence and security and there was a policy of a homeland decided upon - where the homeland would be. CHAIRPERSON That was the objective, the objective was to stop. MRS DERBY-LEWIS The objective was to stop, we were mobilising to protect ourselves from a communist take-over. MR BIZOS "Well, it would have been quite in accordance with their attitude that you are not prepared to suffer the yoke of communism and tyranny" - "Correct" "Right, so the answer is really: "Yes, I would have participated in active resistance" - "Correct" "And these views of your of course, are entirely in conformity with the views of the first accused you have told us about"? - "Yes, these are the views of the Conservative Party" "Well these views that you would actively participate to unyoke yourself from the yoke of communist tyranny - if called upon those views are also the views of the first accused ...[indistinct]" - "Yes, I presume it for him" "Yes, you told us he is staunchly anti-Communist and so forth and that is the way you know him"? - "Yes, so if I may add, so would millions of others" "Well, that may be so but they are not here now and you see you have also explained to your counsel when you gave evidence that look it is a mindset and you know the mindset is there, you do not have to reconfirm these things, you know it is there" - "Correct" "And you know that accused number one has got a mindset as you"? - "Correct" "Yes, and your husband too as far as the politics are concerned" - "Absolutely" "Yes, so there is this communality between the three of you, that you all have the same political mindset that active resistance is something that you would grab too if necessary" - "Yes, as I repeat Sir, ourselves and everybody else in the Conservative Party" Are you happy with those answers? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS And at that time you were not trying to dissociate yourself from murder, were you or were you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I made no decision about associating myself or dissociating myself with murder, murder in prinicple or this particular crime. MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, excuse me, where is Mr Bizos reading from now? What page Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] line 11. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Did you follow it or must I start again Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS "Yes, now it seems to me Mrs Derby-Lewis, that you find yourself in a rather difficult position. I want to suggest to you that only did you have to fight off the possible yoke of communism and tyranny but you also had to fight off the National Government which in your - in the way it is put here in your papers, seems to promote the potential of the yoke and it seems to me you had a war on two fronts" Is that fair? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "I would say that the first problem was the National Party" - "Yes" "Without the National Party the communists would not be here today and it is with the release of the communists by the National Party" - "So"? "So, my first line of attack will be the National Party" - "Ja, no, not the communists" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Right. Now, let us go to page 704, line 10 "And of course one way of stopping people in their tracks, would be to take out the leadership" - "No, that is not my style" "Yes" - "And it is evidenced in my articles, yes" "Yes, but that is an option which has been used elsewhere"? - "Yes, but it is not my option, I am a member of the Conservative Party and this is their approach" Was that your answer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON Yes, you said it was their approach. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, but this is how I saw their approach. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Can I ask how I am changing that categorical statement, in which way? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS So this statement should really have read "Save that the Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party at a Council Meeting said that: "We do not declare our Policy publicly, therefore my Lord - to Judge Eloff, you must accept that there are elements in the Party such - possibly as my husband, Mr Walus and myself, who subscribe to violence but we are not prepared to speak openly about it" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, the ANC put out a book: "Forum on Mass Mobilisation", they never said: "Mass Murder", they never said: "Mass Killing, Mass Intimidation", they called it mobilisation and that was their policy, a path to power. And nowhere in that book do they decide or did they describe that they are going to murder anybody. MR BIZOS Have you heard of any Parties - when they go over to violence, adopting a manifesto and forming a separate wing in order separate the people who are prepared to commit violent acts and those who are not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Have you ever heard of anything like that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Of course I have. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS "We want to take up arms" What do you take up arms for? MR BIZOS I am not interested in headlines in The Patriot ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, The Patriot ...[intervention] MR BIZOS I am interested in your evidence ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS May I finish please? MR BIZOS Please listen, please ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS The Patriot is the spokes - is the mouthpiece of the Conservative Party and it is full of that kind of thing - urging the people to do something. MR BIZOS Do what, to kill people? MRS DERBY-LEWIS We must stop, we must stop the ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Are you saying that The Patriot urges people to kill people? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS "Hani, Communism and Negotiation" It is part of Exhibit KK and I want to read the last paragraph to you: Did you write that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "Do you think" the question by the Attorney General: "I see" - "The fault lies - as I repeat, with the Government" "Yes"? - "Yes. "I think this is fair political comment" - "Yes" "Well, I think Mrs Derby-Lewis, why I refer you to your writings is to show that you held very, very strong views" - "Well, these are and you had now the view of the Conservative - and you had no the views of the Conservative Party" "Well, you wrote it" - "Yes, but they were approved by the Conservative Party and printed" "Yes" - "If they did not like these views they would not have printed them" "So, could I just summarise your political view as follows: It seems to me it is fair to put to you that it is your view or it seems to be your view, that sooner or later armed resistance would become a factor of life in this country if the negotiations carry on the way they were carrying at this stage"? - "Yes" Are you happy with that answer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Yes. "And I think you have also made mention in on or other of your articles that APLA had already declared war on the Whites or against the Whites"? - "Correct" "And you further believe I understand - if I may put it to you this way, that the Whites there is a psychosis of fear and helplessness"? - "Yes" Are you happy with that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Are you happy with that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "So whilst the taking of a person in peace may amount to murder, when you are at war it does not necessarily need to amount to murder"? - "No, I do not believe that" Is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS You said it. MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Who, whilst the taking of one person - when you are at war it does not necessarily need to amount to murder" "When you are at war it does not necessarily need to amount to murder" - "No, I do not believe that" MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman with respect, the witness must be afforded the opportunity to explain what she understood by that. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] draw the line Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Let her do it. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Thank you. "Where do you draw the line"? - "I do not have the ability or the capacity to make those kinds of decisions, I am a supporter of the Party" Do you agree that in the context of those three answers you are giving out to the world that it is the Party that decides whether people should go to violence or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, in my position as a non-policy maker, yes - as a supporter, yes. MR BIZOS And was Mr Walus a policy maker? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS Was your husband a policy maker? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Why was he a policy maker on his own? MRS DERBY-LEWIS May I read something to you? MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON Answer why? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO The witness is looking for a particular document which is in her file. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON No, just - the question was: "Why do you say your husband was a policy maker? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON It was because he was elected onto the Executive of the Party. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS On the next page I actually come to end to this line of cross-examination and you may find that to be a convenient stage. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS I just read it a quarter of an hour ago and if you will give me three minutes to find - here it is. This is the extract from The Beeld which we promised to give copies to the "In November last year along with Mr Schalk Pienaar, was elected to the Potgietersrus Management Committee for the CP in place of Mr Tom Langley of Soutpansberg and Kas Uys of Barbeton, the two founder members of the KP. The particular committee had to investigate the matter of who the people and who the citizens were" He was elected to form policy for the party. MR BIZOS In what respect, whether to go over to violence or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS In what respect and could he change the resolution of the Kimberly Congress on his own, to go over from violence to - from non-violence to violence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Not fair comment, a statement of fact. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, n, I do not. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS May I elaborate? MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes, but you went into the witness box not only for yourself but to lie for your husband and to give evidence which would be favourable to him in the hope that he would be acquitted. MRS DERBY-LEWIS I did not go into the witness box to lie for my husband, I went into the witness box voluntarily. My attorneys asked me: "Would you like to testify and I said: "Yes, I have nothing to hide". And it is now when I read through my testimony that I realised that I had and I said to my Advocate: "I would like to bring this up before the Committee immediately. MR BIZOS Yes, did you think that we might miss it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I beg your pardon? MR BIZOS Did you think that we might miss it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS You did think that. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS It may be a convenient stage to go onto another topic on another day Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well, the Committee will now adjourn and resume at 09H30 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS