amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1997-12-02 PRETORIA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54859&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pta/2derby3.htm ADV MPSHE: Advocate Bizos, you are still cross-examining the witness Mrs Derby-Lewis? MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Mrs Derby-Lewis, have you got an address for Mr Clarke? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Thank you. Mrs Derby-Lewis, the list with 19 names on which was found on your computer, when was that list made, give us a date please. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS The end of? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Did you write letter to any one of the 19, asking for an appointment? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS Did you phone any of the 19 to ask for an appointment? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS Did you take any other step other than asking Mr Kemp to find the addresses - for whatever purpose, in order to communicate with these persons for the purpose you stated you drew it up - because you wanted to have interviews with them, did you take any steps? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Because you were busy with an election? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR BIZOS Now, when was that election declared? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS You had vital information on the ANC at the time and if you had the notion that you would obtain from these interviews with one or another or all the 19 people, how is it that you did absolutely nothing to execute that plan but the execution of the plan of eliminating one of the enemies actually was being discussed and serious steps were being taken in order to execute it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS One had no bearing on the other. MR BIZOS So you say. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I just said, I answered your question before. MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS You were a journalist on The Patriot which was a newspaper committed to the policies of the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, that is correct. MR BIZOS Did you believe that Mr Nelson Mandela would give you an exclusive interview in his home? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Why not? MR BIZOS Well, please answer the question, did you believe Mr Mandela would give you a private interview in his home? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you phone the secretary of the ANC in Shell House in order to prepare the possibility of the interview with the number one person on the list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. Try and answer my questions and ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. When did I ask you three times whether you phoned the secretary? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Please answer my questions without any comment. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Excuse me, may I finish? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos? JUDGE WILSON She was talking, you interrupted her Mr Bizos. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Please! MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you ...[interview] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you expect Mr Justice Goldstone to give you a private interview in your - in his home? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Do you know whether Justice Goldstone gave the Judgement alone or whether another Judge concurred in his Judgement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I just read that he had given the Judgement. Are you referring to the Hillbrow Judgement? MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Are you referring to the Hillbrow Judgement? MR BIZOS The Govender Judgement. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. No, I just knew it was his Judgement. MR BIZOS Did you read the Judgement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you take the trouble to find out whether perhaps another Judge, Judge Myburgh, concurred in his Judgement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you think that he was an activist Judge because he said that the courts - when they have a discretion, ought not to grant an ejectment order unless they are satisfied that the person has got another roof to go to? Did you consider that to be a Judgement which was so outrageous that it required a visit by you to his home to see what his standard of living was? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS The question was whether you considered it so out of the way that the courts should require a person to have other accommodation before they are ejected, so out of the way that you required a personal interview with Mr Justice Goldstone for the purposes of saying that he was an activist Judge and that he was living in the sort of way that he was living - to write an article about him, is that what you thought? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I considered that. MR BIZOS And you consider that a fair-minded journalistic purpose? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I consider that to be of interest to Conservative Party readers. MR BIZOS Yes. Now, your journalist or the journalists on the list, did you expect each one of them - having regard to your attitude to them and the purpose for which you were going to conduct the interview, did you expect them to give you interviews at their homes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, because I differed from many, many other journalists in South Africa and I gave them interviews in my house. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I intended to go and see them at their homes, it actually never occurred to me to phone them first, I wanted to know where they lived to get their addresses. MR BIZOS Did you think Mr Hani would ...[interview] JUDGE WILSON Sorry, do you mean you would go to their homes with no prior arrangements? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no, I would phone them but I would know where they lived, no, I had no intention of going a-cold to their homes. MR BIZOS Did you think that Mr Hani would give you a private interview in his home? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS: So why did you want his address? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because I wanted to see the way he lived. MR BIZOS But I thought that the purpose of getting the address was in order to go and have interviews to see whether they have persian carpets on their walls and on their floors and such matters. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Would you confine yourself please to answering the questions. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you intend asking Mr Hani whether or not he would give you an interview? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes, yes. JUDGE WILSON Had you asked him for an interview before you wrote that article? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I quoted a foreign newspaper and it was from that - from the foreign newspaper, that gave me the idea of pursuing the issue. I quoted here from one of the London papers. MR BIZOS Yes. In relation to Mr Mandela, why did you think Mr Mandela would give you an interview but you thought it unlikely that Mr Hani would give you an interview? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. This list of 19, were there any names there which were put as camouflage? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you ever - were you ever reluctant to speak to Mr Kemp about the list or the contents of the list, on the telephone? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, not at all. MR BIZOS Did you ever say to anybody: "After all we were speaking on the telephone"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you say to anybody that you did anything in relation to the list or the names with Mr Kemp but not on the telephone? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I never discussed it with anybody. MR BIZOS All right. Now, what was your real complaint about the journalists - The Beeld and The Sunday Times Editors? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I would like to submit an article that was written by Karen Bruinhard in 1984 that actually ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just please answer the question. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON I think they want to know what was your complaint about ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry? CHAIRPERSON What was your complaint about them? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Well, instead of referring and reading the article, tell us what your complaint was. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I have to look at this in order to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Look at it please, look at it. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well, ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS And as far as the other journalists are concerned ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Just a moment please. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, you did ask me about journalists generally? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS But you asked me specifically about journalists plural. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, ...[intervention] MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] Chairman of the Committee. This person had written an article in what year? MRS DERBY-LEWIS In 1984. MR BIZOS And you thought that he must have been bribed in order to write that article? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS A simple: "Yes" would have done. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman with respect, Mr Bizos cannot prescribe to the witness how she must answer questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I could not understand the mentality of a liberal Afrikaans journalist. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Absolutely, but you asked me my opinion. MR BIZOS Yes. And Mr Ken Owen, did you consider that he had been bribed? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, Mr Ken Owen was named as a spy in one of the articles, he was named in two articles as an agent, so my suspicions in fact ...[intervention] MR BIZOS As an agent of what? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS September 19? MRS DERBY-LEWIS 1997, this year. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS But why? CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, but you see, he owned a national paper and he was perhaps more choosy about what he put in his paper than what I would put in mine - I was only too happy to talk to somebody. JUDGE WILSON But surely if you wanted to speak to somebody like Mr Ken Owen about what he put into his paper, you would have gone to see him at his office. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I faxed him, I faxed him. ADV POTGIETER MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, she had written many - sorry, sorry ...[intervention] ADV POTGIETER Just give me a minute - before you decided to write something about her or to interview her. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, she had written many articles since then, this was the only one that I could find in my files last night when I looked through. She had written many articles, this was The Vaderland and then she moved over to some other Afrikaans press newspapers. ADV POTGIETER But which article persuaded you to pay attention to her? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, this one highlighted her animosity. ADV POTGIETER Yes, because it seems as if this was a particularly negative one from your perspective because it cost the Conservative Party an election. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, correct. ADV POTGIETER MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, because this was when I decided to expand upon the theme that I had being doing about writing about the gravy train - everybody was talking about it then. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS Thank you. Who is Mr Wepenaar? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I think he has since deceased or retired. MR BIZOS Yes. And what did you have against him? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, it was The Beeld newspaper as a newspaper. The Beeld newspaper was considered and stated by Doctor Treurnicht - quote, unquote: "as the enemy of the Afrikaner nation" MR BIZOS Who said that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Doctor Treurnicht. MR BIZOS Oh, yes. And did you think that he was also bribed? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Anybody who opposes your particular view, was either because intellectually he differed from your view or because he was bribed, is that how you look at it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS And Mr Tim du Plessis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Time du Plessis yes, he was the Assistant Editor of The Beeld and he was a particularly vicious supporter against the Conservative Party. MR BIZOS And did you have any reason to believe that he was also bribed? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes, now ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Your view of the matter, does that now seem irrational to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. CHAIRPERSON You still believe it is not irrational, just because ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I believe Judge, in nationalism as a force in world politics. CHAIRPERSON No, I understand. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Anyway, thanks very much, I get your - I understand your approach to the problem. Mr Bizos? JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, because of the preponderance of journalists being on payrolls, I was inclined to believe that of the journalists. CHAIRPERSON If they were not bribed then they were agents? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR BIZOS We know that Mr Kemp was on the payroll, did you investigate him? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Because he wrote the right things. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Were you going to ask them whether perhaps their wives were working or had money of their own or if they were women, whether their husbands were good earners, were you going to ask them that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Or whether she inherited money or anything like that or whether he inherited money, were you going to do that or were you just going to go on face value on the nature of the furniture and the nature of the carpets? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Were you going to investigate as to whether - you did see any wealth, whence it came from? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Mr John Qwelani, did you expect him to give you a personal interview in his home? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS And Mr Pik Botha, would he give you an interview at his home? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I think Mr Pik Botha would have given anyone an interview. MR BIZOS Yes, but did you have any connection at any time with the Information Department? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I worked for three and a half years for the Information Department. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you continue working for the Information Department after your official connection with it ceased? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, definitely not. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS I know ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. And Mr Naidoo, did you expect him to give you a personal interview? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Do you hold grudges against people? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Pardon? MR BIZOS Do you hold grudges against people? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON That is put to you as a question. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS The finding ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS There was never any - excuse me, there was never any other version. MR BIZOS The finding of the court that you quote, was partly based upon your untruthful evidence that you had no knowledge as to how the short-list came into the possession of Mr Walus. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes, you can separate it if you so wish. You made an application for bail, did you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS In your application for bail, did you want to be as frank as possible to the court? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, you said I must be as frank as ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Did you want to be as frank as possible to the court? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS When you made your affidavit? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS In R2, page 94 Mr Chairman, paragraph 4 "Defence to Charges - I am charged with murder, conspiracy to commit murder, unlawful possession of a firearm and unlawful possession of ammunition. I confirm my instructions to my legal representatives that I would plead not guilty to each and every charge. The nature of my defence will be fully disclosed on the 4th of October 1993, being the date on which the trial has been set out for hearing. I am however prepared to state that I categorically deny that I am guilty of the charges contained in the indictment as amplified by the summary of substantial facts and further particulars. I respectfully submit that the State extensively relies on inferences to be drawn from facts to be proved. I categorically deny any involvement whatsoever to a conspiracy to kill the late Mr Hani or any other person. I further specifically deny being the author of the so-called: ""hit-list"" Annxure A, to the indictment or that I caused same to be drawn with the purpose and intent alleged by the State. I again ...[indistinct] to iterate that the State is trying to link me with the assassination of the late Mr Chris Hani, mainly because it is alleged that Annexure A was found in the possession of accused number one. If my involvement in this is related purely to the existence of Annexure A of the indictment and I were to be connected to the charges as a result of that, I could easily have absconded as suggested in paragraph two supra. I respectfully submit that the fact that I never made any effort to hide from the arrest or abscond, is indicative of my innocence. It is further evident from the indictment ...[indistinct] amplify it by the fact of substantial facts and further particulars. I did not commit the murder which I am charged with. I finally deny having ever possessed a firearm or ammunition as alleged. I am confident that I will successfully defend all the charges against me" Is that your affidavit? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "I further specifically deny being the author of the so-called: ""hit-list"". MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS I beg your pardon. MR BIZOS If you were to have given a full and honest explanation on your present version, you would have said that That would have been an honest and open way of dealing with it, would it not? MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS This application was drawn up by my attorney, they are the words of my attorney and I took his legal advice as to this being the correct wording of my application. MR BIZOS Had you told your attorney what you have told us now - that you had drawn up a list of 19 names from which the "hit-list" was extracted ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS The list described by the State as a "hit-list" annexed to the indictment. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON No, I think that - please ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Which, the second one or ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON The short-list. MRS DERBY-LEWIS The short list yes, Mr Kemp drew it up. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, is Mr Bizos going to call Mr de Waal - like it was posed to me yesterday? MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO With respect Mr Chairman ...[intervention] MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] and may I ask questions on it. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO As it pleases Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Put the question but the document will not be regarded as evidence unless Mr de Waal comes and swears to it before us. MR BIZOS You have read this - will it be as Exhibit Z Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON You may put questions from the document you have in front of you. MR BIZOS JUDGE NGOEPE MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, yesterday we tendered the copies we had to the Committee, it was then withdrawn and was not returned to us. MR BIZOS It was. CHAIRPERSON It was. JUDGE WILSON They were. CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON A(c). MR BIZOS A(c), thank you Mr Chairman. Now, you spent a lot of time yesterday telling us of how badly you were treated by the police Mrs Derby-Lewis. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I was in the company only of policemen, so there was nobody to tell. MR BIZOS You were visited by your own doctor. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Was ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Except that I felt bad and there was something wrong with my heart - it was only on a medical basis. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I was in the surgery, I think the police officers were waiting outside. MR BIZOS Did you trust your personal doctor? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Did you have any reason to believe that the district surgeon was anything but an honourable man in an honourable profession? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I had no reason to believe that he was anything other than a professional person. MR BIZOS What was the date of the consultation? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Had pressure been put on you in order to make false admissions against yourself and against your husband and against Mr Walus before that visit? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I - according to my memory I started writing on the 25th, although the statement produced was only dated the 27th and in that document that I handed in I remember writing "I must have written more than a 100 pages" MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS When do you say the pressure on you started? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The pressure on me started the first half an hour that I was in Mr Deetleffs office. MR BIZOS And it was made clear to you that you would not be released unless you made damaging admissions against yourself, your husband and Mr Walus right from the beginning? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS And on what date was that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS That was the date of my arrest, the 21st of April. MR BIZOS So, by the time you saw your doctor, how many days had you been in detention under Section 29? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Four days, four days. MR BIZOS And you had been interrogated by Mr Deetleffs in the meantime? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS And he was the one who was suggesting to you that you should make false allegations against - false admissions against yourself and false allegations against the other two? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Deetleffs - it was simply his manner and the fact that I was very, very tired and afraid, it was a personal fear that I had of Mr Deetleffs - the actual statement about: "You will write this and you will write that", came from Mr de Waal. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Which date did you sign that statement on? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Now, please tell us what pressure had been put on you before your doctor saw you - to say what? What the pressure was and what the purpose of the pressure was? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did he say to you, you must implicate yourself, your husband and Walus or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Just give us the page again please. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS 396, yes. What paragraph? MRS DERBY-LEWIS 396, paragraph 3 on page - well, on that page. MR BIZOS 396? JUDGE WILSON What numbered paragraph is it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS What date was this put to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS This was put to me when I first got into his office in the morning. MR BIZOS What date was that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS 21st of April. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS That you must lie about them. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, he wanted me to sign something that was not true. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Not at this stage. MR BIZOS The question was ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS The questions was: "When did Mr Deetleffs tell you to falsely admit that you were responsible or that your husband and Mr Walus were responsible? When ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS He said that many times ...[intervention] MR BIZOS When did Mr Deetleffs tell you that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS He said that many times when he was interrogating me and ...[intervention] MR BIZOS From the 21st onwards? MRS DERBY-LEWIS From the 21st onwards - no, yes from the 21st onwards. MR BIZOS Please tell us the precise words that Mr Deetleffs used to indicate to you that you must lie about your husband and Mr Walus and you must lie about your own participation? What did he say? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON Did he ever tell you that you must lie or did he tell you that you must agree with what he believed to be the truth? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, he did that during the interrogation. MR BIZOS And what pressure did he put on you in interrogation on the 21st, in order to induce you to agree with what he believed to be the truth? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, the 21st was just the first day, there were two or three days after that that I was under his interrogation. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, when I first got to his office he said that I would never get bail and that I would get 15 years and that I was guilty and that I must sign a statement and this was the statement that he wrote out. MR BIZOS Those are the things that he said? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Right. JUDGE WILSON Did Captain Deetleffs say to you: MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON So, he then went on to deal with that in paragraph 15? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. JUDGE WILSON Where again you said no comment? MRS DERBY-LEWIS But he kept telling me that the attorney was coming, needless to say the attorney never arrived. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] from what appears on page 395 to 397, will you please tell us what pressure - if any, Mr Deetleffs placed on you? CHAIRPERSON I think she said that one of the things that he did - which she regarded as pressure, was he told her that she was going to be detained under Section 29 - she said that as one of the factors. MR BIZOS Is there anything else other than the factors that you mentioned? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you know for how long your detention under Section 29 was to last as a maximum? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I had no idea. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman with respect, there are people in the audience who keeps on calling the witness a liar. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Did you ask him how long you could be detained under Section 29? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I said: ...[intervention] MR BIZOS And what did he say to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS They were his words, he told me that when I got to his office in the morning of the 21st of April, I will never forget that and he set the pattern after that with those words. MR BIZOS Was the number of days mentioned? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS When were you told that after 10 days they could only hold you if the court sanctioned your detention? MRS DERBY-LEWIS You mean by Mr de Waal? MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I think it was the middle of the week, a few days before the end of the detention period - 25th or 6th or something. You see, he had - he interrogated me or was with me in the Edenvale Police Station, I was no longer in the Benoni cell. MR BIZOS Are you saying that there was never any discussion between you and Mr Deetleffs about Section 29 or the detention laws or the period or anything like that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you ever say to anyone: "I tell you this Section 29 is a brilliant Act"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, but I meant that facetiously, I saw that on the tape ...[intervention] MR BIZOS On the video? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes, yes. And you say that nobody has access to anything, least of all to a lawyer - this was a complaint of yours, that you wanted to see a lawyer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS I beg your pardon? MR BIZOS Yes, it was Mr Deetleffs who said ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS It was Mr Deetleffs who said that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well, do you remember discussing that the detention law at the time was no different to that that the British had, do you remember that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I think we talked about that. MR BIZOS And who said that, you or Mr Deetleffs or Mr de Waal ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS As a high profile journalist, had you not concerned yourself about the draconian provisions of detention without trial during the apartheid era? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I have quite a lot of files on that. MR BIZOS Yes. So that - that there was a change, must have been of the utmost importance to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR BIZOS Did you ever compliment the South African Police whilst you were in detention? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Now, are these the words that you used? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Will you please just - one moment please. The question was: "Did you use these words"? and you say that - what was your answer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I was in the process of answering. CHAIRPERSON She says she remembers the first part but does not remember ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Which is the first part? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Finished? Do you want to add anything? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. Now, tell me this, assuming that you said it ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, exactly, when I was under the SAP I had no choice, I had to sit there and talk and do whatever they told me. MR BIZOS So that ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Did you mean what you said? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON No, but if you did say it - my questions was: "Did you mean ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Oh probably, probably said in - yes, in the tone that it was said. MR BIZOS You told us that by the 24th when you are recorded to have made this statement, you had felt in a position to tell jokes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Which jokes? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Just bear with me. Mr Chairman, I have notes but I think that I will leave it until the video is put into position Mr Chairman, during the adjournment rather than speculating as to what the witness said or did not say. CHAIRPERSON How long is that likely to take Mr Bizos - the viewing of the video? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Shall we take the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON So that you can sort it out. MR BIZOS Shall we take the 11H15 adjournment now Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS In order to try and ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You can sort things out in the meanwhile. MR BIZOS Sort these things out - in order to show the witness precisely what has been said. CHAIRPERSON The Committee will now adjourn for 15 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GAY DERBY-LEWIS (.s.u.o.) MR BIZOS The A(c) - this is the affidavit of Mr de Waal, have you read it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Is it correct or incorrect? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, it is incorrect insofar as he keeps saying MR BIZOS Now, could you please draw our attention to what portions of this affidavit do you say are incorrect? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I said it was incorrect insofar as the various remarks that he made about "No complaints" but that is a technical point. MR BIZOS So, the only things that are wrong in the statement are where he says "No complaints" Is that what you are saying to the Committee? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, yes, I have to read through it again carefully but on the face of it, yes. MR BIZOS When you read it, did any glaring untruths come to your mind in relation to what Mr de Waal said - other than "No complaints" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS So, you agree then that what he says here is correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "I said to her that I cannot understand that the list was in the possession of the murderer at the time of his arrest" MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is it that the last paragraph on page two? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The last paragraph on page two. CHAIRPERSON The last two lines? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The second last line MRS DERBY-LEWIS That is not correct. MR BIZOS Just tell us what is incorrect ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Read everything that you say is incorrect. MRS DERBY-LEWIS "I say no, and she said to me that she had neither spoken nor written the truth regarding the list" MR BIZOS Yes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Because she did not want to cause trouble for Arthur Kemp unnecessarily because he had not known why she wanted the addresses" MR BIZOS Just tell us the portions that are incorrect and we will mark them and then we will ask you questions about it. MRS DERBY-LEWIS "She said that she now wished to write the truth regarding the list and asked also to amend that portion. She continued writing her statement and changed the portion regarding the list" MR BIZOS Do you say that that is incorrect? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Yes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, and page four, the third last paragraph from the bottom MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Bizos? MRS DERBY-LEWIS ...[inaudible] MR BIZOS Is that all? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS It was all right with him. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS The question was: "You felt that you could act against the will of Mr de Waal without fearing any consequences in relation to the investigation of the case"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, because Mr Louw gave me my rights in that particular instance. Mr ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Your answer is: "Yes". MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS Is that because you were not afraid that he would do anything to you even though you did not obey his request or command? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, not at all, Mr de Waal told me that I would be a witness, he told me that anything that I wrote could not be used in court, he told me to hurry up so that everything could be taken to the Attorney General so that they could decide on what they would do with me before the 30th of April and I complied. MR BIZOS Do you remember what the question was? You did not fear any consequences from Mr de Waal by disobeying his request or command? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS You had nothing to fear from Mr de Waal at that stage and you could defy his will? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Can we get a straight answer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Can we please have a ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Can we please have a straight answer to the question, did you or did you not fear that any consequences would follow as a result of your disobeying the wishes of Mr de Waal. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Bizos, for the fourth time, no. MR PRINSLOO With respect Mr Chairman, the witness did answer the question. MR BIZOS JUDGE WILSON MR BIZOS He requested her to go and point out and what I am putting ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON He asked her if she was prepared to point certain things out. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] she agreed and then changed her mind. I think ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON You have put it far more strongly than that Mr Bizos. CHAIRPERSON Anyway ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Was your relationship with Mr de Waal that he - did he request you to do things or did he order you to do things? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr de Waal was a reasonably nice man. MR BIZOS Nice man? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. Is it correct that whilst you were with Mr de Waal, there was a female constable with him all the time? MRS DERBY-LEWIS With him or with me? MR BIZOS With - when he interrogated you, was there a female constable present? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, most of the time. MR BIZOS Most of the time? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Were there times that you were alone with a female constable? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did Mr de Waal perform or cause to be performed personal services in order to make your life easier whilst you were in detention? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr de Waal helped me - I bought some night-wear and I gave some money to my son and various other - yes, they were quite conciliatory. MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. And whenever you asked for anything, did you respond positively? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I asked to send some money out and I asked to buy some night-wear and that was about all I asked, the rest of my questions were about the legal process. MR BIZOS Did you choose - when it was suggested to you that you would take your statement, did you choose to write your own statement out? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you start writing on Saturday the 24th? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS And did you - on Monday the 26th, say that you were prepared to continue writing your statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I beg your pardon Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS Did you - on the 26th of April, say that you were prepared to continue writing your own statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I wrote all my own statements in my own handwriting. MR BIZOS And did Mr de Waal cause members of the police force to take things to your home - like washing and pay out money and ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. Was the female constable Strydom, asked to type your statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS And did you say that you would prefer to type your own statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS I said I could do it quicker. MR BIZOS And you typed your statements? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I typed on her behalf because she was battling with the typewriter and I typed them. MR BIZOS Yes. And are the photostatic copies of the statements that you typed during this period your typing? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS And would you agree with me that they are typed accurately and neatly? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, thank you. MR BIZOS And properly paragraphed, is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS And the paragraphs are not running at random, each paragraph contains a section - a proper section, as a good writer like yourself is expected to write - there is no confusion in the statements? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, there is, there are a lot of paragraphs that are out of context. MR BIZOS That are what? MRS DERBY-LEWIS There are paragraphs that are out of context in terms of a chronological progression of events. MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Is there anything that you wish to add? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I was just going to give examples but I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS For example, I mentioned that paragraph 65 seemed - and 66 seemed out of order - it was when I was reading them, they seemed to be not the sort of progression that you would do if you were writing it normally. MR BIZOS But there may a paragraph or two but do you agree that these statements were typed out by a person who seemed to be able to do the job she had undertaken to do? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. When the doctors came, what was the purpose of the visit? MRS DERBY-LEWIS And then they asked me if: "Do you still want to see a doctor"? and I said: "Well, yes, what happened to Doctor van der Mesht"? and they said ...[End of tape 2, Day 5 - no follow on sound] MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] of the examination? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because my heart was playing up. MR BIZOS Yes. Is that as a result of you having been arrested or is this a - was there a pre-existent condition or was this a ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS "No complaints" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I did remember, I read them to you. MR BIZOS When I first asked you I meant. When had you last read this document before today? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS The question was: "When you read this document before - last read this document before today"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS And you had forgotten the blatant untruths you now say Mr de Waal recorded? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Yes. Now the portion that you say is incorrect ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR BIZOS In the last paragraph on page two "She will state that her husband had never shown a firearm to her" Is that what you said? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "She would state that her husband had never shown her a firearm while her husband - during interrogation, had stated that he had shown a firearm to her" MR BIZOS And you never said that you had forgotten about it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Forgotten about what? MR BIZOS As to whether the gun had been shown to you or not? Did you ever say to Mr de Waal or to Mr Beetge or to anyone else that you did not remember whether or not your husband had shown you a gun? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Whilst in detention, were you concerned about Mr Kemp being in detention? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Of course, yes. MR BIZOS Did you ask Mr de Waal as to whether Mr Kemp was still in detention? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Why did you ask him that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because I was worried about him. MR BIZOS Was it whilst you were being asked questions about the list, that you asked them about whether Mr Kemp was still in detention? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I asked whether he was still in detention when I was being asked questions about everything. MR BIZOS The question was ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Are you able to admit or deny that your question about Mr Kemp was at the time that you were being asked questions about the list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO With respect Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think she said that: "She said on several occasions - on many occasions, she asked about Mr Kemp. MR BIZOS Why was not one of those occasions - thank you Mr Chairman - why was that not one of those occasions when you were being interrogated about the list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Now, as to where - no, the purpose is clear Mr Chairman, as to whether the statement by Mr de Waal - at the top of page 3, is probable or not because she was only prepared to speak the truth about the list if she was satisfied that Mr de Waal had been released. CHAIRPERSON Put that to her in that form I think. MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, not at all. MR BIZOS Well, were you not prepared to be more forthright about the list if you knew that Mr Kemp had been released from detention? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. Well, one of the changes Mr de Waal give a reason for - and I will read it to you "To the question she asked me whether Mr Kemp was still in detention, I replied in the negative and she told me that she had not spoken the truth or written the truth regarding the list because she did not want to cause unnecessary trouble for Arthur Kemp because she did not know - she had not - he had not known why she wanted the addresses" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you not have a feeling of - even on your own version or particularly on your own version, of protecting Mr Kemp from any involvement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did the police speak freely - during the course of the interrogation, about the "moord lys" or "hit-list"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Which police, Mr de Waal or Mr Deetleffs? MR BIZOS Either the one or the other or both. MRS DERBY-LEWIS "It was not" - Gay: "It was not originally intended as a "hit-list". Mr Deetleffs: "When does it become a "hit-list"? "When it has been used as a "hit-list". And then the question was: "Who is Eugene Taylor"? And there were various remarks made like that. MR BIZOS Yes. Tell me, the word: "enemy", did you use the word: "enemy" in your writings in The Patriot? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I suppose so, yes. MR BIZOS And who were you referring to as: "the enemy"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Which is the other side? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Were all the people on - all the 19 people on your list, the enemies of the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Were some of them enemies and some antagonists? MRS DERBY-LEWIS If you want to put it that way, yes. MR BIZOS And would Mr Mandela, Mr Hani, Mr Slovo, be the enemies? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, of the Conservative Party, yes. But it was interesting that it was Mr Deetleffs that introduced the word: "enemies" in the interrogation. CHAIRPERSON Well, I think the question right now is that you yourself have freely used the word: "enemy" in your writing. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes, yes. MR BIZOS Did Mr de Waal ever tell you that you were not obliged to give - to make any admissions against yourself? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Will you please look at page one, the middle of the third paragraph "I told her that should she be prosecuted any statements made by her to us or anything which was put in writing now and at a later stage, could be used as evidence against her at a trial which may result" ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Actually Mr ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Secondly, during the course of your examination? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes, we hear what you say Mrs Derby-Lewis, but what I want to say to you about you being called as a witness, who were you going to be a witness against? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS An experienced journalists such as yourself ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Or the reading of literature? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS You never came across that you could not give evidence against your husband? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Pardon? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no, I only find out later. MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO R4 continued. MR BIZOS 398. Have you got it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON What is the question? MR BIZOS Well, were you taken through this document by your counsel? MR PRINSLOO Is Mr - he wants to refer to this document Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Are the contents of this document correct or incorrect? MRS DERBY-LEWIS There are some parts that I queried - yes, this is the summary by Mr Deetleffs of his interrogation of me. In essence it is correct, in essence. MR BIZOS In essence it is correct. MRS DERBY-LEWIS In essence there are some points that I queried, particularly paragraph 52 and 54 and paragraph 60. MR BIZOS And you mention the paragraphs as paragraphs ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Paragraph 52. MR BIZOS 52. MRS DERBY-LEWIS 54. MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS 60 and 59. MR BIZOS Is that it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, it would seem so - oh, paragraph 24 - sorry, paragraph 24 is an innocuous sort of statement that ...[intervention] MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, if - it says "We never had any discussions" "I do remember that they went into political discussions" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you husband or did your husband not say ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS I do not recall him saying that. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS To the 10th? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS Or at any other time? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, on the 11th - the following day, we saw his face in The Rapport newspaper. MR BIZOS Did he then say that he thought that Cuba would not do such a thing at all? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS "Cuba was supposed to change the number plates. He did admit to me however, that they had discussed it" Did he ever say anything like that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did your husband ever say that "It looked like a set-up seeing Cuba was caught so quickly" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you say Did you say that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I never asked Clive about the gun, I never spoke to Clive about a weapon and I never saw a weapon. MR BIZOS Right. Do you agree that this interrogation which is said to have taken place on the 24th, shows that there was no pressure on you to admit anything that you did not want to admit? MRS DERBY-LEWIS That was what I wrote in those original notes that I wrote in the cell: "I will write anything to get out" MR BIZOS When did Mr Deetleffs fall out of the picture and Mr de Waal take over? MRS DERBY-LEWIS About the - I think it was the 25th. MR BIZOS Did he - did Mr Deetleffs interrogate you after the 24th? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS I want to - I may say Mr Chairman, that we have not been able to locate Mr de Waal, we will have to take instructions from him and further cross-examination on the issue may have to be directed to the witness once he becomes available. CHAIRPERSON If he becomes available. MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON If he becomes available. MR BIZOS If he becomes available. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, who read them into the record, was it your side who read them into the record? MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Anyway, the fact of the matter is that ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS It exists or whatever. CHAIRPERSON Statements made by certain political parties was read into the record. MR BIZOS Now, you as the information officer of the Conservative Party, are you able to confirm that those were the public statements that were made at the time by the persons who were mentioned? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Were you in jail during the week of the - from the 11th to the 18th? MRS DERBY-LEWIS 11th to the 18th of what? MR BIZOS Of April 1993. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I was taken on the 21st of April. MR BIZOS Yes ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, are you talking about immediately afterwards? MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Shortly after the event and particularly during the week of the 11th to the 18th, did you become aware that various leaders of the Conservative Party dissociated the Conservative Party from the - from violence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, but I think that is relevant to ...[intervention] MR BIZOS I asked you about ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Please just try and answer the question, your counsel will come to your assistance when he re-examines you. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Thank you. MR BIZOS Were you aware of public statements made by leading members of the Conservative Party dissociating the Conservative Party from violence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Not particularly aware, no. MR BIZOS No? Mr Chairman, I must place on record that we asked whether the statements in R3 are going to be admitted as having been made, we were told in August last year - this year - in August, that they would revert but we have heard nothing Mr Chairman and it may be necessary for me to put these documents again to the witness in order to - I hope that it is not - are we going to have an answer some five months later or are we not Mr Chairman because it effects the examination that I have to direct to the witness? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Well, are you able to say which statements are admitted by you? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON On all those statements? MR PRINSLOO On most of those statements. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Well, could we know which the witnesses are going to be and what the elaboration is going to be - they are statements of public record and they were not denied afterwards. If this is going to be a never ending process, let it be Mr Chairman, but we must know what it is that we have to do. CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Bizos, at an appropriate stage you and counsel on the other side must engage yourselves into an exercise like a Rule 37 conference on this issue, there might be some agreement between you two so that we can avoid a repetition. MR BIZOS Yes, well let me leave the question at least until after the adjournment. CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman with respect, we intend calling a witness, we can then explain as to the content of those statements. CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO As you please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE MR PRINSLOO ...[inaudible] JUDGE NGOEPE MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS You said you were not the information officer of the Conservative Party, what were you in relation to the - what were you in the Conservative Party, did you have anything to do with the information or the press or what was it, how would you describe yourself? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I issued statements on behalf of the members of Parliament and the Caucus and the leader, I never issued a statement from myself and I was a parliamentary reporter and a journalist for The Patriot. MR BIZOS Yes, so you were involved with the dissemination of information from the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, from the English side. MR BIZOS Yes. Now, Mr Peter Mulder, did he phone you on the 10th? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did Mr Mulder speak to you or not? CHAIRPERSON The answer is: "Yes", Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS No, she said: "either I or my husband" Mr Chairman, I want certainty as to whether it was the witness or her husband Mr Chairman. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON You remember talking to him by telling him that ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I think my husband answered the phone and called me - anyway the point was that I became involved in the discussion with him, so it must have - yes. MR BIZOS You became involved in a discussion with who? MRS DERBY-LEWIS With Doctor Peter Mulder, as to what we should do in terms of the press. MR BIZOS Right. Did you make any suggestions to Doctor Mulder as to what should be said? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I had no right to make any suggestions to the Members of Parliament as to what should be said. MR BIZOS And do you recall anything that you said to Doctor Mulder? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I think he said something about: "We must get hold of Doctor Treurnicht" and then eventually he came back and he said that Mr Prinsloo would phone me and I think Mr Prinsloo phoned about 10 or 15 minutes later and he issued a statement of two or three lines which I typed. MR BIZOS Did you suggest to him that it should be said that there should be a commitment about violence not being the answer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS And if anyone suggests that that is what you said, is that incorrect? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you suggest as to whether any sadness should be expressed about the death of Mr Hani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Doctor Treurnicht did say something in The Patriot - I think a week later, something about: "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" or words to that effect. There was certainly nothing insulting said, it was simply a political statement on the fact. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. Now, do you recall the Member of Parliament, Mr Koos Botha who was charged with an offence arising out of a sabotage of a school in Pretoria? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I knew him, I remember that instance. MR BIZOS Yes. Do you remember that he complained that the Conservative Party did not support him and he was alone in Court K at the Pretoria Regional Court with no-one coming there to support him, do you recall that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, there was an article in The Patriot about that. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I recall from what you have said so far. MR BIZOS Yes. Now you see, you were the parliamentary person concerned with the parliamentary affairs of the Conservative Party, the repudiation of Mr Koos Botha and his reasons for relying on the monument speech and the Kimberly Conference ...[End of side B, tape 3 - no follow on] Parliament as a result of a caucus decision or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Irrelevant to what Madam? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you consider it an irrelevant fact or set of facts in order to determine what the attitude of the Conservative Party was to violence at the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I see it as a completely irrelevant incident in terms of Conservative Party policy, it was a spat between somebody who had been suspended or removed from the Party and somebody who was having a bit of a go at him in Parliament - I think that was how the whole Conservative Party saw that incident. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS It was during a serious debate on the Indemnity Act on which presumably the Conservative Party - after a caucus meeting, was opposing. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no. JUDGE NGOEPE Why not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON But whatever Mr Daan du Plessis in Parliament - to your knowledge, was that inconsistent with your understanding of the Conservative Party policy? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON No, my question is not that, my question is whether - to your knowledge, that statement of Daan du Plessis was consistent with your understanding of the Conservative Party policy. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON All right. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. Well, we produced the Hansard for the case of completeness and accuracy but words to that effect, did you not see any of it in any newspapers? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Perhaps this might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment. MR BIZOS May I just round this off? CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. MR BIZOS That in R3 of - R3(f) Mr Chairman "Stop blaming our Party - CP tells Bomber Koos - Citizen, 22.10.92" CHAIRPERSON What is the question? MR BIZOS And on page four "Koos recounts why he bombed school" Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GAY DERBY-LEWIS (s.u.o.) MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Do you know anything about it Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON I would like to see the prison authorities in my chambers now. MR PRINSLOO As it pleases you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo, I have discussed - my Committee has discussed or raised this matter with the representatives of the police authorities who have come here and we regret that somebody set in motion, steps to have chains and handcuffs put on the applicants before us - it is a pity that that has been done. In the past we have had had hearings where people who had been serving long terms of imprisonment have appeared before the Amnesty Committee in support of their application and on no occasion was anybody brought to us in chains. Once again my Committee regrets that this has happened. I think it is quite clear that such steps can only be taken if there is an assessment made by the authorities that the prisoners - or there is a threat, that the prisoners might escape or behave in some irregular way in which case it would be necessary to restrain them and only in those circumstances should the prison authorities consider taking steps as they were proposing to do here. MR PRINSLOO MR BIZOS We are going to show portions of it and I understand that later my learned friend Mr Grant, will show other portions of it during his examination of Mrs Derby-Lewis but we will give the time reference number on the video and I will ask the operator to stop it and ask questions and then show the next portion and ask questions so there is some continuity on it. May we proceed on that basis Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may do so. JUDGE WILSON MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Is it possible to turn these lights off? - if you can, please do so. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BIZOS COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...(sound indistinct) MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR PRINSLOO INTERPRETER And if you could please switch on the microphone. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] ...[inaudible] there Mrs Derby-Lewis, although the sound may not have been very clear, did you say there: "Looks like they all slept, so did I. I did a bit of exercise and then I" and you yawn. "Then I must have slept for about 12 hours" Is that what you said there? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. And were you telling the truth when you said that you had slept for 12 hours or about 12 hours? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I suppose so, yes. MR BIZOS So that whatever you may have said on the 24th could not have been as a result of sleep depravation? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, sleeping for 12 hours after not sleeping for a long time hardly allows you to catch up - sleep depravation was just one problem. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Thank you. Can we now please go to 10:25:52? COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] And in December we had"...[inaudible] MR BIZOS Okay, thank you. The sentence that I want to place on record there is "I never had much to say to Cuba, I found him a bit slow" Do you agree with that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, the word: "slow" I meant in terms of his English and his communication skills. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON No. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Yes. Now, did you say: "I found him a bit slow" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR BIZOS Now, did you mean in his movements or in his mental capacity? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Oh, communication skills. MRS DERBY-LEWIS And his English. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS And a person with a mind of his own? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Pardon? MR BIZOS And a person with a mind of his own? MRS DERBY-LEWIS And a person with a mind of his own. MR BIZOS Thank you. MRS DERBY-LEWIS In most matters, yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Can we please go to 10:40:58? COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] MR BIZOS Yes, can we stop there please? This is where you say: "I tell you this Section 29 is a brilliant Act because nobody has any access to anything, least of all the lawyer. I think that it is a terrible problem in the Law, people cannot have access to a lawyer" Is that what you said" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS And then Mr Deetleffs takes over and do you agree that there was a discussion about that sort of detention being practised elsewhere and particularly by the British? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS And in fairness to you, were you cleaning your glasses or were you upset - on what we see there? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, my eyes were hurting - I was tired, so I think I just took them off to wipe them. MR BIZOS I see, yes. Could we please go to 10:47:43? COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] MR BIZOS Is that a correct ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, that is what I said, yes. MR BIZOS Yes. Now, does this not show that on the 24th you appeared to feel completely free to answer questions put you in a completely non-culpable manner? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no, it may look like that but I was very afraid and it was after that that I became ill and asked to see the doctor. MR BIZOS Well, ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS I was trying to please Mr Deetleffs, he started off that tape - if I may comment In other words, I was complying with him now as opposed to being belligerent and aggressive in the beginning. MR BIZOS Would Mr Deetleffs not have been more pleased if you being compliant? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Correct, I was trying to please him. MR BIZOS Listen to my question please - that you had been more compliant if you said what the case was - that your husband and Walus had detailed discussions as to how to assassinate Mr Hani ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Can we go to 10:57:54? COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] MR BIZOS "It would have been much easier" and you say: "But you - hang on, you have never been brought into Section 29 and you work in an environment where you are familiar with the police and how things work, a stranger is brought in and feels - my personal feeling is that you must have access to Law" Is that what you said? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Now, you appear to have felt comfortable to argue with Mr Deetleffs. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS What notes are you referring to? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes, well at the end of the day it would be helpful I think, if we could have your notes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Let us just confine ourselves to this at the moment please. Do you agree that he does not sound to be speaking to you in an aggressive voice or being angry with you for not having co-operated with him in the beginning? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Now, you remember what the question was: "He does not appear to be angry with you - not to remonstrate with you, it sounds like a civilised question and answer with you participating fully"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Definitely, definitely. MR BIZOS Thank you, yes we can proceed. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS On the 14th? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, when he took me in on the 21st. MR BIZOS No, this is on the 24th. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Anyway, the question to you was ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry. CHAIRPERSON "Studying this here, it is quite clear that your questioner was not aggressive to you in any way?" and your answer is: "Yes". MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON On this tape as we are seeing it. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Just carry on. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. Can we please go to 11:11:40? COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] MR BIZOS "They said that he was from Polish decent and I thought now, who is this - a little thing working in the back of my mind - how many people of Polish decent are floating around who would do something like that and I said to Clive: "I wonder who that is"? Clive said: "Well, it could be anybody because that was just a story" Now, we know - is that what you said? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS We know from the statements or the evidence of your husband and Mr Walus, that they conspired to kill and Mr Walus killed Mr Hani, do you accept that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Yes, thank you. How could your husband possibly - in your mind, have had any doubt - if they had conspired to kill Hani and there was a news item of a person with a Polish decent said to have done it, how could he have dismissed it in this way? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS The relationship between the two of you was one of trust at all times? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] MR BIZOS Do you agree that you appear to be quite buoyant and in good disposition in that picture? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS And did you say Is that what you said? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Now, was it your - were these your words that you said that "Make a comment about violence not being the answer" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS The question was: the words "Make a comment about violence not being the answer" Were those words and your suggestions to Doctor Mulder: "should be incorporated into any statement that may be made" MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Now, the question is, were the words: "Make a comment about violence not being the answer" your words as they appear to be in what you are recorded as having said? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE And were you interpreting the policy of the Conservative Party at that time? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well, ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS And they were the words that I chose to impart to him, what I thought would represent bland and vague. MR BIZOS Is one of the ways of avoiding telling the truth by being vague and bland and did you intend that the truth should be told by the Conservative Party or that untruths or half-truths should be told by the Conservative Party in its public statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS ...[no follow on sound] MR BIZOS It would have been? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Their policy. MR BIZOS Their policy. You suggested that they should say that "Violence not being an answer" and you were speaking the truth and you intended the truth to be spoken - if your advice was taken, by the Conservative party. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS But Doctor Mulder asked you for advice as what to say. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, he said in a conversational tone "What do you think we should say" MR BIZOS And you suggested to him that he should tell the truth, that the policy of the Conservative Party was that "Violence is not the answer" MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I never talked about truth or anything to Doctor Mulder, I said to him ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Can we please proceed to 11:30:09? COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] MR BIZOS Can we stop there? Shall I read it out for clarity Mr Chairman, or is it clearly on the record - do you feel? CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS I think I must read it out Mr Chairman, because there are questions that I want to ask along the way. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS You were asked about certain right-wing individuals, do you recall that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well the, perhaps we should go back from 11:30:09, you were asked about certain right-wing individuals. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, but who were the right-wingers that I was asked about? MR BIZOS You refer to it in the passage, do you want to hear before or do you want me to deal with what has been shown up to now? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS "Now let me tell you, we have minimal contact with the right in terms of being involved with them. I personally - and that is not for the record, thought they were crackpots and an embarrassment to our cause. We did everything we did through the CP, we were completely involved with the CP and this took up all our time. Now, you said that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Now, let us just say this, in the application for amnesty there is a statement and some evidence given by your husband, that he acted on behalf of the broad right-wing, who is the broad right-wing? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The broad right-wing consists of all of the right-wing organisations. MR BIZOS AWB? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS "Wit Wolwe"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS Yes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. And what other organisations fall into the broad right-wing that your husband may have thought of acting on behalf of when he conspired to kill Mr Hani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The HNP and the ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Did you say the AWB? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Of which you appear to have a poor opinion? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well, ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS I was talking about people who just go and shoot in the street. MR BIZOS Which other people in the right-wing shot at people not in their - on the streets, but in their driveways for instance? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Which of those right-wing organisations had ever publicly said or identified themselves with a policy of violence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Which organisations called for the use of violence in order to achieve political objectives? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well, are you suggesting that the right-wing has an official policy and an unofficial policy that they give out one thing publicly but it is a lie and they surreptitiously go about killing people, is that your evidence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Now, can we please go 12:07:12? COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] MR BIZOS "So, what do you know of false registrations or whatever"? you respond: "Walus"? - "Yes" Is that what you said? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Oh yes, and I remember now" MR BIZOS Who is the he that you were referring to? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Who is the key? MR BIZOS Who is the he - h-e. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Oh, he? MR BIZOS That you were referring to when you said MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS How could that refer to Walus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, my husband never told me that he planned anything. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS And I am asking you - in the sentence Who is the person that you are referring to as having planned? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Walus I presume. MR BIZOS How can that possibly be? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, Mr Walus committed the crime. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Madam, the question was "So, what do you know of false registrations or whatever"? It seems to be an ordinary enquiring question that any reasonable detective would ask. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did you know that at the time of your arrest? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, his behaviour certainly did have an effect on my thinking. MR BIZOS No, his previous record of - whatever it may or may not have been, did not play any role in your thinking because that is what you learnt afterwards. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, it played a role in his professionalism in terms of being able to soften up people, he knew what he was doing. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Absolutely not. MR BIZOS Thank you. Now, he asks a simple question MRS DERBY-LEWIS Definitely not. MR BIZOS Right then, what did it mean? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS I was very compliant and I wanted to give Mr Deetleffs what he wanted, I remember distinctly - I made that note on my notes, I was afraid of him. MR BIZOS Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS And he suggested the changing of the number plates, I knew nothing about number plates, nothing at all. CHAIRPERSON Now, may I ask you a question? If you say that you were compliant - the question that is being asked of you: "Who was the he that you were referring to"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Walus. CHAIRPERSON Now, because you were compliant, was it not possible that the he that you mentioned was your husband? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON So then, all this business about you having been very compliant, has nothing to do with the answer, as far as you were concerned the he meant Walus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, on the face of it yes, I was particularly referring to the number plates when I said that. JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I think so, yes. JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, what does it look like? JUDGE NGOEPE Well, Mr Bizos, read the sentence to her so that she can see what it looks like. MR BIZOS JUDGE NGOEPE That ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON Read the sentence to her. MR BIZOS Thank you, thank you. May I read the question for the sake of clarity as well? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Are you going to let them take the rap" MR BIZOS Are they? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Are you going to let them take the rap" That is what Mr Deetleffs ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Take you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Take the rap. MR BIZOS Oh! MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS "I am sure it is going to be used in court" What was going to be used in court? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Are you trying to suggest that although you appeared to be responding comfortably to questions and you were well kept and well dressed and responsive to questions, are you saying that these words were not intended to have any meaning whatsoever? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS "That it will be used in court" What will be used in court? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Not your statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS What else might it be referring to whilst you are being used, whilst you are being busy interrogated about a serious murder and you say What could it be other than your statement? JUDGE WILSON MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] examine this possible interpretation with you Madam. If you did not - if you were not guilty and if your husband was not guilty, the propaganda that was unleashed on your arrest - that you were being victimised by the police and the Nationalist Party Government, would have been successful political propaganda? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, you said National Party, you said National Party. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes, well, ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS I think there were remarks made ...[intervention] MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Right. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Deetleffs and Mr de Waal both told me that what I said and what I wrote was Section 29 and it could not be used in court, they both unequivocally told me that. MR BIZOS Can we please go 12:22:11 ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman with respect, Mr Bizos ought to also put to witness that nowhere on this tape of the 24th of April, does it anywhere appear that Captain Deetleffs warned this witness in terms of Judges Rules as it appears at page 398, the introduction to his statement. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] time for that, my counsel can argue the matter Mr Chairman, can we go to 12:22:11? COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I think I said that "I take my hat off to you" MR BIZOS Do you recall what your answer was when asked: "Why did you say this and why were you prepared to take your cap off to the police"?, what was your answer, do you remember? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well, do you agree that you looked quite serious and articulate and cogent - to use your word, and quite comfortable whilst you were saying this? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "I take my hat off to you" MR BIZOS This morning you said you were joking when you said it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I was trying to break the tension, that was the word - they were the words I used this morning. MR BIZOS I see. MRS DERBY-LEWIS It was late and I was tired. MR BIZOS So, you say that: "To say that I was joking" which you said this morning and the serious complaints that you had against him and Section 29, are the same thing? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Let us go on please. JUDGE WILSON Sorry, before you do, did I hear you correctly saying: "I was unhappy and ill and went to hospital for the next two days"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I went to - well, to hospital, I went to see the doctor. JUDGE WILSON Oh. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS Can we please go to 12:22:47? COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO ...[sound indistinct] MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn after this attempt. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON ON RESUMPTION - 3 DECEMBER 1997 CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. GAYE DERBY-LEWIS (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BIZOS Mrs Derby-Lewis, yesterday you gave us a typed document headed "Rough Transcript G. Derby-Lewis - Interrogation by Deetleffs" Could you please tell us when you typed this document? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I think it was Wednesday night - when did we - when we got the tapes. MR BIZOS When you got the tape? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS I see, and where did you view the tape? Where were you when you viewed the ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS I viewed the tape at my house. MR BIZOS Were tapes one and two handed over to you by your legal representatives? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS When were they handed over to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Anyway, you had it on Wednesday of last week? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Or this week? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Last week? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, last week. MR BIZOS Now, did you view them alone or in the company of some other person? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I viewed them alone. MR BIZOS You see Mrs Derby-Lewis, my learned friend Mr Brandt who took the tapes last night informs me that the portions of the tape that have the damaging admissions said to have been made by you and recorded on page - R4 continued, page 402, have been wiped off the tape. I would ask the witness to answer the question and not to consult with anyone please Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON MR BIZOS Do you know who may have wiped those portions out? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Why did you only make notes in relation to the - up to 12:49? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Which date? MR BIZOS No, 12:49 of the tape, if you look at page four of your document. MRS DERBY-LEWIS I said "Fell asleep, still asleep when tape closes" MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS That this tape even now goes beyond 12:49 but stops short of where the police evidence is going to be - the admissions that you made in paragraphs 52 to 60 were recorded, do you want to make any comment on it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Bizos, the last thing that I would - I feel quite insulted frankly, that you would even consider the fact that I would wipe out the tape. MR BIZOS Well, ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS I have answered the question. MR BIZOS These admissions - if in fact they were on the record, would be completely destructive of your credibility. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Are you still suggesting that I wiped out tapes? CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Can you think who would have the greatest possible interest of wiping these admissions off the tape, if they were in fact wiped off? MR PRINSLOO To what is Mr Bizos referring Mr Chairman, what was wiped off? JUDGE WILSON As I understand, from paragraph 52 onwards. CHAIRPERSON On page 402. JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, what I saw on the tape ended at the time 11:27 on that particular tape, so if Mr Bizos can indicate to you the time. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON I think you were about to put a question to her. I think you were about to put a question to her: "Who would be ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Who would have an interest in wiping out paragraphs - the contents of paragraphs 52 to 60 from the tape? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Yes. But the gravement of the question of the question that I asked you: "Who would possibly gain - out of the three parties in this Committee, by the deletion of these paragraphs, you, the police or the Hani family"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Mrs Derby-Lewis, these tapes that were handed to your legal representatives were documents in the possession of the Commission. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I got them from Mr Lubbe, my attorney. MR BIZOS I know, Mr Lubbe was given these documents by Mr Mpshe - counsel for the Commission, to the legal representatives. Did he not discuss with you his authority to hand these tapes over to you, one of the persons said to be a conspirator or alleged to be a conspirator in the Hani murder, did your attorney not tell you that these were handed to him and that you were not entitled to have them on your own once you were one of the people involved in this hearing? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS I will leave the rest in relation to the tapes, to my learned friend Mr Brandt who has witnesses to - we will have to lead secondary evidence as to what was on the tape. MRS DERBY-LEWIS 32. MR BIZOS Did you ask him why he had a silencer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS Why not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I never knew he had one. MR BIZOS But once you found out that he had one, did you ask him what he was doing with a silencer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Why not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS Why this wall of silence between you and your son in relation to an unusual object in his possession? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON But you knew that part of the case against your husband was that he had obtained a silencer for the gun which was used to kill, surely when you heard your son was also in possession of a silencer you would know about it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS If I may say something Mr Chairman, - I can see the Judges look incredulous, I knew nothing - I beg your pardon, I knew nothing about a silencer from the word go, so why would my son having a silencer have anything to do with tying it up with the case? CHAIRPERSON The suggesting is that the silencer figures fairly largely in the killing of Mr Hani. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, but I said in my evidence I had never seen the silencer ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON No, no ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. CHAIRPERSON Right Mr Bizos, proceed now. MR BIZOS Mrs Derby-Lewis, just one more question on this issue, motherly instinct would surely have led you to ask the question lest your son was mixed up with assassins - the silencer is after all an instrument of great use to assassins, why did you ask him: "What are you involved in, where did you get it from, why did you get it, why did you put it in your draw"?, - all the questions that a mother would ask for the protection of her son. MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON You heard the evidence at your trial. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE WILSON Where silencers were referred to. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE WILSON Thereafter you knew perfectly well what silencers were used for. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS How long has your son been overseas? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I think he went overseas shortly after - I think it was even before the trial. MR BIZOS Did he visit you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS He visited me in prison, yes. MR BIZOS Please tell us specifically, when did your son leave South Africa? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Has he been back since? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, he lives in Canada. MR BIZOS Now, you and your husband were not only man and wife but political colleagues and held important positions in the Conservative Party, both of you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Did your husband ever discuss the moral question with you whether - in the struggle of the Conservative Party, it would have been permissible to kill or morally acceptable to kill, did he ever discuss that question with you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Did he ever discuss with you the possibility as to whether or not the time had arrived for the contingency plan that was alluded to at the Kimberly Conference, had arrived or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS What was it that would have prompted him not to discuss this with you once you were so close? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS He has made statements and has given evidence - if he is to be believed, that he wrestled with the question as to whether or not murder should be committed, can you give us any reason - what there was in your relationship, that he was not prepared to speak to you about this moral dilemma that he was labouring in? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS How would he have involved you if he told you he was in a moral dilemma as to whether or not the third option at the Kimberly Conference should be put into operation or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS He never discussed it with me. MR BIZOS The question was: "How would he have implicated you if he as a fellow politician and as a husband referred to the third option at the Kimberly Conference? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS What would have prevented him from discussing any of these things and why would there have been this wall of silence about such an important question that your husband was wrestling with, was there anything in your relationship which would have prevented him from discussing it with you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS You were sufficiently prominent a member of the Conservative Party that you were selected by the Conservative Party in 1992, to appear in the television programme to debate the question of what was the rule of patriotic South African women to play in relation to the referendum that was about to be held. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I think the SABC wanted women participants and it was in English so the Conservative Party to participate and I think Mrs Camera was there. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS And the suggestion that there may be in your evidence that you were a mere foot-soldier, is therefore to be looked at critically is it not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, on that point, I think we were debating a referendum. MR BIZOS Yes. Mr Chairman, there are other matters which we have to take up with this witness as soon as Mr de Waal becomes available and as soon as the version of the police is put by my learned friend Mr Brandt. I would like to stop the cross-examination here with your leave and I will merely give a notice that I will apply in due course - when further facts emerge, to put them to the witness but for the time being that is the end of the cross-examination. And I also Mr Chairman, want to place on record that matters that I have not put to her directly in relation to some of the issues, I would also like to reserve the right because one piece of information leads to other questions in relation to others. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, you will agree that this is not a particularly satisfactory way of conducting proceedings? MR BIZOS I agree fully Mr Chairman, but then on the other ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Now then, that being so, are there not other matters that arise from her evidence in chief that can be dealt with now and reserve to yourself the right to ask questions after your witness has arrived ...[intervention] MR BIZOS I will not ask for leave to ask any questions or claim any right to ask any questions that arise out of her evidence in chief, I reserve the right in relation to matters that will emerge as a result of the police evidence and particularly Mr de Waal whom we have not seen and this is what I particularly want to reserve. And also Mr Chairman, we have given - Mrs Derby-Lewis was good enough to give us a contact number for Mr Edwin Clarke - counsel for the Commission is making arrangements to get him here, it may be that information may emerge from there that we have to put to her. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Not for my purposes, I merely wanted - I merely referred to them in order to establish that she had sole control of the video at a certain time Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR BIZOS May we call back Mr Chairman, and allow Mr Brandt and his attorney to come forward? CHAIRPERSON Yes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Yes, please, do proceed. MR BRANDT: Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT And you were arrested inter alias by Captain Deetleffs? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Now, what exactly did he say to you when he arrested you, did he tell you what you were arrested for etc.? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he said I was arrested under - I think it was - I wrote it down, Section 50 or 60 of some Act - Section 50 and that was only when I asked him, I asked him under what Act - under what Law am I being arrested. MR BRANDT Did he tell you what you what you were arrested for? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BRANDT Not at all? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he said he wanted to take me for questioning. MR BRANDT In connection with what MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well obviously, in connection with the Hani matter. CHAIRPERSON Not obviously, the question is: "Did he tell you"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Well, can you seriously dispute it if I put it to you that Captain Deetleffs informed you that he was arresting you for - in connection with the murder of the late Mr Hani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Now, what prompted you to ask him: in terms of which Act or what Act he arrested you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because I had a friend staying there, Mr Kevin Ryan who had stayed in the house since my husband was arrested and I wanted him to get hold of Mr Jeug Prinsloo who was our member of Parliament for Florida and who was an advocate, so I wanted to convey some kind of legal terminology to Mr Ryan in order that he get hold of Mr Prinsloo. MR BRANDT Madam, you will forgive me if I put it to you that I find that very strange, if a person is arrested in connection with murder surely that suffices? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Well, in connection with the murder of Mr Hani. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Now, at Benoni you were then questioned by Deetleffs? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT On the 21st of April 1993? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT Now, Madam, did you know that the whole procedure, this interrogating or questioning was being filmed at that stage? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BRANDT You were unaware of it, quite unaware? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON The witness seems to have heard and that is that, she was unaware that the questioning was being taped. MR BRANDT Now, correct me if I understood it incorrectly Mrs Derby-Lewis, you initial reaction to the questioning was: "I have no comment"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON No, you will be asked those questions, please just try and answer. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, in fairness to the witness, could Mr Brandt indicate on this tape whether this appeared that she was warned in terms of Judges Rules? CHAIRPERSON You can re-examine her on that point. MR PRINSLOO As you please Mr Chairman. MR BRANDT Thank you Mr Chairman. What is your reaction to that Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT I put it to you that Captain Deetleffs and others if necessary, will testify - if need be, that you were not only warned at your arrest at home that you were not obliged to answer any questions etc., but also later at Benoni - before the questioning started, you were warned in terms of Judges Rules. You cannot dispute that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, is tape two - what date is tape two? MR BRANDT I made a note on a little piece of paper and I put it on the tape. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Are you referring to the tape ...[intervention] MR BRANDT The tape that is tape is numbered number two. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Yes, Madam, that is in fact ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, well ...[intervention] MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT No. MRS DERBY-LEWIS And then it ends: 14:16 - end of tape. MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS Are you talking about the 21st of April? MR BRANDT Madam, yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS How do you know that ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO And up to paragraph 60 was included there and thereafter was a lot of information which does not appear on this document, page 402 but it was on the tape on Thursday when it was received from the witness - I want to place that on the record. MR BRANDT Well, what ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO And thereafter it was handed back and it was returned to Mr Bizos. CHAIRPERSON Put your question to Mrs Derby-Lewis please. MR BRANDT As it pleases you Mr Chairman. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Because Madam, evidence will be led - if need be, that the police made notes of the contents of that tape and I have those notes and those are inter alia what is contained in paragraphs 52, 54, 59 and 60, which you deny. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Are you alleging that I wiped it off? MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I denied that I did it. MR BRANDT Yes, I take note of that. Now Madam, again returning to your ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON Sorry, before you go on, you said it stops at 12:56:12? MR BRANDT 12:56:13 to be precise. JUDGE WILSON And is that the position now you say? MR BRANDT Mr Chairman, that is the present position. JUDGE WILSON But that ...[intervention] MR BRANDT JUDGE WILSON And you say that is at 52? MR BRANDT JUDGE WILSON But as I understand, we have just been told by counsel for the applicant that he saw the tape on Thursday, it went beyond paragraph 60 and stopped at 12:56:13. MR PRINSLOO JUDGE WILSON So, paragraph 60 is on the tape before 12:56:13 according to him. MR BRANDT JUDGE WILSON The tape is available now and we can see whether - before 12:56:13, these passages are on the tape. Did I understand you correctly, you say they were before 12:56:13? MR PRINSLOO JUDGE WILSON 11:27? MR PRINSLOO 11:27 Mr Chairman, and the actual tape ends at the time 12:56:13. JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO From ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON 11:27. MR PRINSLOO 11:27 ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON 11:27. MR PRINSLOO 11:27 up till 12:56 Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON And hour and a half. MR PRINSLOO Correct Mr Chairman. MR PRINSLOO And the information beyond 11:27 does not appear on the document R4 continued, page 402 - there was a lot of detail. We made notes - my colleague and I made notes of all this detail. CHAIRPERSON Mr Brandt, will you and Mr Prinsloo finalise this matter among yourselves, it may well be that this matter can be resolved? This might be a technical difficulty and it may save a lot of time in further cross-examination and so on? MR BRANDT Indeed Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And will you call us immediately you are ready? We will adjourn. MR BRANDT Thank you Mr Chairman, with regard to the tape, my learned colleague has indicated to me the times where he allegedly found them - if I can refer to page 402, paragraph 52? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BRANDT CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR BRANDT Then the rest of the paragraphs, 54, 59, and 60, I could not find on that tape. CHAIRPERSON 54, 59? MR BRANDT 54, 59 and 60. It would seem that these notes are not in time sequence or numerical sequence and I will have to view that tape again from the very beginning, so I suggest that I leave that questioning there at that stage. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON JUDGE WILSON We have just been told that he could not find paragraph 59 and 60 on the tape. CHAIRPERSON No, 54, 59 and 60. JUDGE WILSON