amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS PRETORIA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54860&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pta/2derby4.htm MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Anyway you maintain that 54, 59 and 60 are on the tape. MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON You maintain that they are on the tape, 54, 59 and 60? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr Brandt. MR BRANDT Thank you Mr Chairman. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT What role did Colonel van Niekerk play, did he at any stage question you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Did he question you, did he participate in your interrogation? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BRANDT So that was the sum total of his role? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Now, Beetge, what was his role? Would I be fair if I summarise that he was actually the scribe? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes and no, he did ask questions which were on the tape and he was - I would say, he was the runner rather than the scribe because he seemed to be running backwards and forwards between somebody and me and saying Clive said this and Clive said that and what do you say to that, so he came in and out of the room and he sat with Mr Deetleffs at times and so forth. MR BRANDT He played a very, very small part in this whole questioning process as far as the act of physical questioning is concerned? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT So the bad guy in the scenery - as far as you are concerned, is Captain Deetleffs? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Madam, it ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Can I ask you this Madam, did the demeanour of Captain Deetleffs at any stage, force you or compel you or contribute towards you telling any untruths? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Are you talking in terms of my final statement to him? MR BRANDT At all, at any stage. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT So would I ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS In essence, yes. MR BRANDT In fact, would I be fair to say that at the latter part of the questioning you became quite friendly with each other - obviously platonic, but you were civil, joking, friendly etc.? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Madam, I would be very much obliged if you could point out any tape where Captain Deetleffs said to you, you would go to jail for 15 years. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Let me refresh your memory Mrs Derby-Lewis - and the court, if you would just grant me a moment to get that particular place, you asked Captain Deetleffs what was going to happen to your husband ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS When was that? MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS And what ...[intervention] MR BRANDT "What is going to happen" ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, what date is that? MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT "What is going to happen to Clive"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, what time was it? MR BRANDT 2:16:49. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT Question "What is going to happen to Clive"? and this interjection then from you: "Quickly, tell me before this man comes back" MRS DERBY-LEWIS I think that was Mr Deetleffs - Mr Beetge. MR BRANDT Beetge? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT Question "How long am I going to get"? and he said: MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. MR PRINSLOO MR BRANDT CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think Mr Prinsloo, you have all the right to put this to your client and bring it out under re-examination. Do carry on. MR BRANDT Thank you Mr Chairman. Again Mrs Derby-Lewis, you asked a question and he replied to you in a very sympathetic way, what his views were. MRS DERBY-LEWIS How do you know it was sympathetic? MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT "Is Clive going to get bail"? and he said to you quite honestly: MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well? MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Well, what is on the tape was not threatening. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Madam, what happened before that is none of my concern at this stage, what I put to you is that on tape one at the relevant times I placed on record, this happened namely, you asked him certain questions and he replied to them in a sympathetic, straightforward and honest manner, do you agree with that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT Right. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, may we just enquire which is now tape one that my learned friend is referring to, what date? MRS DERBY-LEWIS 23rd of April. MR PRINSLOO Because we know now that the Mrs Derby-Lewis was arrested on the 21st, is it now the 23rd or the 24th? To what tape is he referring to? MR BRANDT CHAIRPERSON 23rd. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Again, on that very same tape at 2:19:10, Mr Deetleffs said to you very sympathetic "Darling, you must be strong" Those are the words. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Well, I did. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, ...[intervention] MR BRANDT And I put it to you, can you dispute it Madam? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BRANDT Now is that the words of a person this ogre who threatens you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Yes. In fact, he went further on and he said in Afrikaans "I just want to cheer you up a bit" Do you dispute that Madam? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Can I ask you this, according to - and again correct me if my impression is wrong, the person who really bugged you was Captain de Waal. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Yes, and not so much Captain Deetleffs? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Correct, because the allegations were made that you were maltreated etc., etc., by Captain Deetleffs. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON At any rate, as far as those portions of the tape that we see, you have admitted that there was no threatening or domineering attitude displayed by him? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes, correct. CHAIRPERSON MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT Were these notes made by you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS These were made by me, yes. MR BRANDT Now, if you look at the second paragraph, the last sentence under the heading: 22 Thurs. ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Which page was that? MR BRANDT "Doctor Treurnicht died - again problems" etc., etc., do you have that before you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Yes, correct. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. 22nd of Thursday "Doctor Treurnicht died" MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS Right. MR BRANDT Now, the last sentence under that heading - 22 Thurs. says "6a.m. - Deetleffs drunk and swearing" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT Now, could you tell me when on that particular day was he drunk or was that 6a.m. the time that he was drunk according to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Deetleffs drunk and swearing" MR BRANDT Now, do I understand you correctly, that from 10p.m. right through to 6a.m. Deetleffs was drunk? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Now, when was he drunk? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, when he came in at 10p.m. I could smell that he was drinking. MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Now wait again, was he drunk or did his breath smell of liquor or what was the position? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Fairly heavily? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT And from what did you make that deduction? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because I - it was from his speech and because I could smell drink - it was a small room. MR BRANDT What about his speech? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, his speech was slurred and it was different, it was more rolling and sort of slack than when he had taken me in the morning to the room at Benoni Police Station. MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BRANDT That again I submit, is not consistent with a person who is trying to threaten and pressurise you. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Nevertheless, he was not obliged to allow you to see your husband? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BRANDT Yes, but that still did not force you to say anything untruthful as you testified? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BRANDT Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRANDT CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, is there anything that has transpired now which puts you in a position to wish to put questions - on ground that has not already been covered? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Right you are. MR BIZOS If given an opportunity to do so. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, would you like to put questions at this stage or would you like to reserve questions until the cross-examination has been over? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, I will choose to put questions after everything has been done under cross-examination, thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Not at this stage Mr Chairman, that is quite correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRINSLOO As you please Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR BIZOS May I raise one other matter? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Yes, I thought we sorted that out yesterday when Mr Prinsloo, you and Mr Bizos were going to apply your minds to that aspect of the matter. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Yes, you will save a lot time I hope. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MRS GAY DERBY-LEWIS (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, gentlemen? MR BRANDT Mr Chairman, I had the opportunity to go through the video again with my colleagues and as far as the relevant paragraphs are concerned, I wish to place the following on record With regard to paragraph 54 - it does appear there except the third sentence: "Kuba was supposed to change the number plates" - that does not appear there on the video. As regards paragraph ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON Is that paragraph 54? MR BRANDT Paragraph 54. Paragraph 59 - this is not a verbatim transcript, it reads something like the following: Clive said: "Maybe it was APLA, the Government" etc. CHAIRPERSON So the transcript does not coincide with the video on that point ...[intervention] MR BRANDT It does not verbatimly coincide. And as regards paragraph 60 - the import thereof is: "I asked Clive about the gun but he never told me" JUDGE WILSON It is there though? MR BRANDT It is there. JUDGE WILSON MR BRANDT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Prinsloo, Ms van der Walt...[intervention] MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, may I - before the re-examination, merely place something on record and ask one or two question in relation to these passages Mr Chairman - now that they have been clarified? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I thought before I allow you to cross-examine witnesses, I just want to know what the attitude of Mr Prinsloo and Ms van der Walt ...[intervention] MR BIZOS I beg your pardon, yes of course. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, it is correct, the tape was replayed as far this is concerned and it does appear on the tape as indicated by Mr Brandt - that is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And there are differences between the transcript and the tape on certain matters? MR PRINSLOO That is ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON That has been pointed out. MR PRINSLOO That is correct, it appears that the person writing it differed from it Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Now then, before you start cross-examining - Mr Bizos, on this aspect of the matter have anything to say? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Yes. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS Mrs Derby-Lewis, the suggestion that you may have interfered with the tape was obviously an unfounded suggestion and I want to apologise to you for it but you have heard my learned friend as to where I got the information from and from where I drew the inference, I hope that you will accept that apology. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Thank you very much Mr Bizos. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Are you serious when you say one or two? MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Right. Now, so that is something that you said? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, or words to that effect. MR BIZOS Or words to that effect. Now, the other in paragraph 54 We leave out the words that are not there: "He did admit to me however, they had discussed it" Do you agree that if we take out the words that do not appear on the tape, it is still a statement of your husband having told you that they had discussed it and that he expressed the view that he was stupid to drive around so obvious, do you agree with that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, there are two sections to that paragraph. MR BIZOS Yes? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The first is just discussing about what he did with the driving around and then the second section says "He did admit to me however, they had discussed it" In other words, that I knew that they had planned it, that is not correct. MR BIZOS Well "He did admit to me however, that they had discussed it" What were you speaking about when you said it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well "He did admit to me however, they had discussed it" Discussed what? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Well, what looks like usually is. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON The question was not whether you knew anything about it but whether you were told about it. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Told about it by who Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON By your husband. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, everybody knew about it, it had been in the newspapers. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Told about it? CHAIRPERSON The words as they read, what do they convey to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, it conveys to me that Clive was discussing about Kuba in the car and then the number plates thing is out and then "He did admit to however, they had discussed it" On the face of it, it looks as if he told me that they had planned the murder and I - he did not tell me that he had planned the murder. CHAIRPERSON What do you think that those words - as far as you are concerned, what do they mean? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, on the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What do they mean to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON You have no explanation for that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS Now, do you agree that: "Said: "Maybe it was" is a simile for the word: "Clive thought" MR PRINSLOO MR BIZOS Well, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON The sense of it. MR BIZOS The sense of it. Is there anything that you quarrel with in the sense of it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS And 60 "I asked Clive about the gun but he never told me" You ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS You aid that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Now, the four paragraphs which you denied when I first referred you to 402, were paragraph 54 - sorry, 52, 54, 59 and 60 - we made a careful note, these were the paragraphs which - the contents of which you denied, 52, 54, 59 and 60, is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I disputed the contents. MR BIZOS You denied that you said that ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON She says she disputed it. MR BIZOS You dispute it. Now, the one common factor amongst these paragraphs - with or without the amendments, is that they tend to show that you had knowledge of the planning of the murder of Mr Hani, do you agree with my ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS You are now dealing with the question that may be asked of you later - either by me or a member of the court, as to why you said it. The question was that what you are recorded to have said as amended, those four paragraphs have one factor in common, they tend to show that you had knowledge of the fact that the murder of Mr Hani was being planned by your husband and Mr Walus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I agree they tend to show that and I agree that they were meant to tend to show that. MR BIZOS Now, when you were asked whether you had said the matters recorded in this paragraph, why did you deny it? Why did you deny that you said that or anything of the sort? - there was just a denial, you did not say it? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS No, please come to terms with the question, why did you deny that you said anything like that when in truth and in fact you now admit that with the amendments you did say - in substance, what is contained in these paragraphs. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Mr Bizos, as far as I recall I disputed the contents, I had already seen this tape and I had already put down notes and I had already said - written down various things and they - it differed from what was here. MR BIZOS No, the honest answer - especially if you had notes of it which - they were not the notes that you gave me yesterday were they? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. MR BIZOS Were they? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, a very rough - very rough notes. I only ...[intervention] MR BIZOS The ones you gave me yesterday were neatly typed. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO JUDGE WILSON CHAIRPERSON A question now is being asked. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON The question really ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about transcribing everything or just that portion that deals with paragraphs 52, 59 and 60? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, transcribing the section which is in dispute and particularly what Mr Bizos is now referring to. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos - as I understand his question, is saying that: "Today you have admitted certain things which you did not admit or which you disputed previously. His question now is: "Why did you dispute or why did you deny this previously"? Am I right? MR BIZOS Yes, that is so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON JUDGE WILSON MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] it was in the afternoon Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Yesterday afternoon? MR BIZOS Yesterday afternoon, yes. It was one of the matters that I dealt with yesterday afternoon at a time when we were dealing with the passages in the - before we started dealing with the passages on the video that we were shown. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] the afternoon, that was in the morning yesterday. MR BIZOS It may have been late morning Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR BIZOS want to put to you, do you want to make any comment on that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, my comment is that obviously what I said is on the tape, what I denied was the content of it, I denied that I knew that I knew about the planning, I denied that I asked Clive about a gun as an essence of the part of my - of the truth - I mean, the fact that I was under Section 29 and asked 100 times about a gun, obviously it has now come into the thing here that I asked Clive about a gun. The question is: "Why did I say that"? CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS That is the end of the questioning. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Mpshe? MS KHAMPEPE CHAIRPERSON All right. Mr Mpshe, have you any questions to put to this witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee. Mrs Derby-Lewis, on Monday certain documentation was handed up to the Committee as Exhibits X1, 2, 3 and 5 and you said you received these by post, do you remember that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. ADV MPSHE How did you receive them, were they registered post or ordinary post? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, they came to my box number in Krugersdorp. ADV MPSHE They were put in your ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, they were posted. ADV MPSHE Posted to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS To my box number, yes. ADV MPSHE So, it was by ordinary post? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. ADV MPSHE Was there any covering letter therein? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. ADV MPSHE It was just these documents put into an envelope? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, it came after I had received a letter back by fax from Mr Moolman. ADV MPSHE I see. MRS DERBY-LEWIS And it was about a week after that. ADV MPSHE Do you still have the envelope that contained those documents? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I ...[intervention] ADV MPSHE Because we want to investigate that. MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I just threw it away. ADV MPSHE Did you check outside where did it come from - on the stamp, the postal stamp on the envelope? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, I suppose it was Johannesburg. ADV MPSHE Sorry? MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE What made you suppose it was Johannesburg, did you ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE Did you expect the documents to come from Johannesburg? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE Okay. When did you receive these documents, was it before your attorney could write me a letter enquiring about the report or after? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Are you referring a letter that has been already written or a letter that could have been written? ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE I think it was around the 7th of November - 7th or 10th of November. MRS DERBY-LEWIS I think it was about a week after I got that letter from Mr Moolman, which was - I believe, on the 4th, so it was the 11th or the 12th I think. ADV MPSHE The 11th of November? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Something like that, yes. His letter to fax to me was the 4th of November and my letter faxed to him was the 4th of November. ADV MPSHE Now my question is, did you receive these documents before your attorneys, Swart Redlinghuis, Nel en Venote could write me a letter asking me about the report? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, the attorneys had been writing and asking about this report for months ...[intervention] ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS Excuse me, may I just finish ...[intervention] ADV MPSHE Look at Exhibit X5 ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE Did he give you a letter which he had written to me to which I was responding in Exhibit X5? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he did. ADV MPSHE Now look at the date on his letter and tell the Committee as to whether the documents were received by yourself before or after that letter could be written to me. MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS What one is that? ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS From you to Mr Lubbe? ADV MPSHE Yes, yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes? ADV MPSHE And try and recall when did you receive those documents by post. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I received them about a week after the 4th of November, I suppose that was the 11th or the 12th - around there. ADV MPSHE Could it have been before? MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE Swart could write me a letter asking about the report? MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE When you ...[indistinct] this, were you in possession of those documents? MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE When did you get in possession of those documents? MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Is it important to know the exact date Mr Mpshe, because she says it was about a week after the letter of the 4th from Mr Moolman. ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV MPSHE That is all I want to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What is the importance of the point? ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS KHAMPEPE CHAIRPERSON About. MS KHAMPEPE About the 11th of November? ADV MPSHE Thank you Madam, but I will leave the point there. Do you recall when my learned friend, Advocate Bizos was cross-examining you, you admitted having said the following statement that: "You kill six and six are born at Baragwanath" Do you recall that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. ADV MPSHE What had prompted such a statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, Mr Bizos asked me: "Was it racist" and I said: "No". ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE Are you saying to ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS There was no sinister reason for saying it. ADV MPSHE Yes, but are you saying to this Committee that it just came into your mind when you learnt about people going around shooting people, that you said: "Kill six and six is born"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, but ...[intervention] ADV MPSHE Without any meaning behind that statement. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, but that meaning is that it has not significance whatsoever - political significance, to go out and shoot people because six more are born, for what reason would you go and shoot people. ADV MPSHE MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no, no, really ...[intervention] ADV MPSHE Or go for the important ones and leave alone the six? MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV MPSHE All right, let me ask you directly now, what were you insinuating with this statement? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No insinuation whatsoever. ADV MPSHE What were you trying to convey to the listener? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I just told you. ADV MPSHE What? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I told you that it was pointless shooting people - we said it in a political context of people going out and shooting people in politics on the street, that was an off the cuff remark in that context and you saw it clearly that I disapproved of that kind of thing - on the tap. ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE WILSON Do you know the list? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON Sorry, it looks like? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. JUDGE WILSON Thank you, can I have it back? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Yes, please. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON What effect did these statements have on you and the knowledge that you were being held under Section 29, what effect did all that have on the answers that you gave to the questions that were put to you during the interrogation? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, the effect was that I was going to get out. CHAIRPERSON What is that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS The effect was that I was going to get out, he told me that I was going to get out. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he was going to release me so ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Any other effect? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS In regards to writing what I wrote? CHAIRPERSON In regard to answering whatever questions were put to you. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON I understand. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand your evidence. JUDGE NGOEPE On some of the tapes that I saw yesterday during the interrogation, my impression was that on occasions you appeared to be tired or exhausted. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE And you have a different view, my impression is that your hair was not even well kept? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE With regard to page 402 of R4, paragraph 51 or to put it in proper context, we can look at 48 "I was very shocked but in my heart not at all surprised" I think 48 describes your reaction to the news that Mr Hani was killed and or perhaps also the involvement of Kuba. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, actually it referred to paragraph 47 JUDGE NGOEPE "Clive was upset and I asked him what he was going to do" MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE What upset him? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, he was upset, we were both upset. JUDGE NGOEPE By what? MRS DERBY-LEWIS By the fact that Mr Hani was dead and Kuba was - well, it was a political thing and Kuba was now being picked up by the police. JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. JUDGE NGOEPE And then you asked Clive "What are you going to do"? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE You asked him what he was going to do, to do what about what? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE Well, were you not asking him as to what he was going to do about what had upset him, namely the arrest of Kuba? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I think I recall somewhere in my evidence or somewhere, that we got him an attorney, maybe that was what I was talking about. JUDGE NGOEPE Why did you expect of your husband to be sufficiently worried about the arrest of Kuba as to ask him as to what he was going to do? MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE Then you ask him MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, Kuba was a friend of ours, we knew him, his picture was on the front page of the paper. JUDGE NGOEPE Well, he could have had relatives and families and brothers and a girlfriend who would - being relatives, especially his brother, would primarily be concerned about Kuba his younger brother. MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE Well, with regard to paragraphs 52, 54, 59 and 60, - well, Mr Bizos is free to argue that, my impression of them is that they do not necessarily indicate that you had fore knowledge of the planning to kill Mr Hani, rather - as I look at them, at least they indicate that before your husband was arrested he did at least tell you or disclose to you that he was involved with the plan to kill Mr Hani. MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, he never ever discussed the killing of Mr Hani with me, ever. JUDGE NGOEPE Not even after the incident but prior to his arrest? MRS DERBY-LEWIS After the incident? JUDGE NGOEPE Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he told me that they were discussing something but he never told me that they had planned it. JUDGE NGOEPE Well, assuming that - well, 60 "I asked Clive about the gun" Which gun are you referring to? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, I still dispute that because in my testimony I said on numerous occasions: "I know nothing about a gun". JUDGE NGOEPE Oh, I see. MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Can you remember seeing a gun" This was at a quarter to three in the morning, and my answer was: And throughout the testimony it seemed to me that the police were obsessed with trying to tie me up with the gun. JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, they discussed - they discussed doing something, as everybody did but discussing it - the plans to kill Mr Hani, were never ever known to me. JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS Oh. JUDGE NGOEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you. JUDGE WILSON Can I come in at this stage and just try to clarify something, when you were being questioned by Mr Bizos about paragraph 60, you said - as I noted down "They asked me about 10 times about the gun, I had now reached the end of the questioning and I was told I might not be charged and I was perhaps agreeing with them because Beetge may have said something that Clive had told him" Do you remember saying that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Beetge did say that. JUDGE WILSON "I had now reached the end of the questioning" MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON Your counsel told us you mentioned the gun about an hour and a half before the end of the questioning. MR PRINSLOO JUDGE WILSON It went on for an hour and a half after that? MR PRINSLOO JUDGE WILSON Thank you. MS KHAMPEPE Mrs Derby-Lewis, did your husband - at any stage, tell you why he had handed the list over to Mr Walus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Did you ask him why he had given that list to Kuba? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MS KHAMPEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MS KHAMPEPE And you had read in the newspaper that it was an important piece of evidence in relation to the murder which was being reported. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MS KHAMPEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Scared of what? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Why were you scared to ask that question? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Because Kuba was our friend and he had the list and now we had a murder on our hands. MS KHAMPEPE Were you not concerned about Mr Arthur Kemp? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I beg your pardon? MS KHAMPEPE Were you not concerned about Mr Arthur Kemp as well? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I was very - yes, I was concerned about Mr Kemp. MS KHAMPEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Now, were you a member or owner of a company or business called Sportron? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, Sportron is a network marketing company and I was a member and not an owner. MS KHAMPEPE And when did you first become involved with Sportron? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE When did you first sign Mrs Venter as a member also? MRS DERBY-LEWIS I signed up Mrs Venter sometime in early 1993 or March 1993, I think it was after - yes, Mr Venter phoned me and said he was moving to Krugersdorp and they moved to Krugersdorp on the 1st of March and sometime - I think he came to see us on the 10th and then after that I went to see his wife and asked her if she would like to become involved. And then I had to go and collect samples or something and then I went to her place and showed her the samples and then she ordered something and we discussed when I would deliver it and I think that was the reason why we went over on the 10th of April. MS KHAMPEPE So, you first signed her up around March? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE And when did you sign up Mrs Kemp? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Now, during your criminal trial you testified that there were two reasons for compiling the list with 19 names. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MS KHAMPEPE Was that information correct that you gave before? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE But you gave - you personally gave evidence to that effect? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MS KHAMPEPE That the list was compiled for purposes of writing a book together with Mrs Parker? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, that was one of the reasons. MS KHAMPEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Now, if that is so, how were you able to get time to sign up Mrs Venter? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE But did you tell Mrs Parker that you were now in the possession of the information? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE But I thought the evidence that you gave during your criminal trial was to the effect that she had actually gone out to look for this information and had not been able to locate it. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Now, what is that you had against the journalist Mr Qwelani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Do you know whether he stayed in a Black township? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Now, if it had been found that he was staying in a Black township, would you still have gone there to interview him? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes, of course, why not? - yes. MS KHAMPEPE MRS DERBY-LEWIS MS KHAMPEPE Thank you. ADV POTGIETER MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV POTGIETER On the afternoon of the 10th? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. ADV POTGIETER MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes, we were shocked in terms of it being a very shocking piece of news in the history of South Africa, of course it would be. Any important person that is assassinated is a shock whether ...[intervention] ADV POTGIETER Thank you. But specifically your husband - you say you were shocked? MRS DERBY-LEWIS ADV POTGIETER Has your husband ever at any stage told you that he had ordered Mr Walus to assassinate Mr Hani? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Are you talking about within the last - well, I learnt about it during the trial. ADV POTGIETER Was that ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Not the trial, the amnesty ...[intervention] ADV POTGIETER The Amnesty Hearing? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. ADV POTGIETER When your husband testified? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, then I actually heard about the full story of their involvement. ADV POTGIETER That was the first time that you ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, sorry, sorry, it was when they asked me to type their amnesty applications. ADV POTGIETER So, it was really in the context of this amnesty application where you heard for the first time that your husband ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, the full involvement, yes. ADV POTGIETER And that your husband had ordered Walus to do the execution? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. ADV POTGIETER And did your husband at any stage tell you that he was acting on behalf of the Conservative Party? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. ADV POTGIETER Never? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No - well, it was in the amnesty application that I typed. ADV POTGIETER Yes, so that was the first time that you learnt about that issue as well? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. JUDGE WILSON Could I ask something arising from that, was it - in the afternoon after you came back from shopping, that you got a telephone call from somebody who told you that a Pole had been arrested or a Pole had been involved? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Well, yes, yes. JUDGE WILSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS JUDGE WILSON And did your husband at that stage mention that it might be Walus? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, but I started to wonder whether it was perhaps him because he was the only Pole that we knew, he was - well, the only Pole that we knew as a close friend and secondly, that he was involved with us in terms of talking - over the years, of what we were going to do. CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to proceed? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, a copy of the notes of tapes which Mrs Derby-Lewis compiled while she listened to the tapes, was handed to Mr Bizos and I would like to hand up to the members of the Committee also a copy of the same note, it will be referred to as Exhibit A(d)1 Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON A(b)? MR PRINSLOO A(d). MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, the basis is that Mrs Derby-Lewis made reference to this particular document and the document was then made available to Mr Bizos in order to cross-examine her from that document and the Committee did not have a copy of that document - have the same advantage. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS But I merely wish to place on record that we do not accept that it is a correct reflection of the tapes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON All right, that will be placed on record. This document will form part of the exhibits as A(d)1. Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Right. MR PRINSLOO And also to save time that way Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON 402? MR PRINSLOO It ends at page 402 Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRINSLOO JUDGE WILSON Sorry, page 398 to 402 is not a transcript of anything. MR PRINSLOO ...[inaudible] JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Yes. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Now Mrs Derby-Lewis, during your detention - whilst you were detained by Captain Deetleffs, was there any reference made by him to you as to how he treated other people in custody such as Helena Pastoors? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, he discussed that and it was in the context of her not having her children and he said that he visited on occasion and took his children to see her and it was somewhat disturbing because of the fact that I had said to him just previously: "Will I ever see my family again". MR PRINSLOO Was that on the 23rd of April? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And this interrogation, did that take place during the course of the night, after midnight? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, it was very late. MR PRINSLOO And how long did the interrogation last, are you able to tell the Committee or not? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO The next evening? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO In the morning? MRS DERBY-LEWIS No. MR PRINSLOO Next evening. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Next evening. JUDGE WILSON 26 hours? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Was there an occasion - during that night of the 23rd of April, that you were taken out from the interrogation room and your husband was brought to you? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, it was 6a.m. on the morning of the 23rd. MR PRINSLOO Was there an occasion when there was a discussion between Warrant Officer Beetge and another lady - a female police officer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And that discussion, is that recorded on the video? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO To what Mr Beetge allegedly said to this lady police officer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, it is recorded on the video, right at the end of the video and it says in Afrikaans - well, the English translation is "We know how to break them" or words to that effect. CHAIRPERSON Those words were alleged to be uttered by who? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, they were actually uttered in Afrikaans by Warrant Officer Beetge at a distance from the camera and the camera was focusing on the desk on which there was a handbag of mine and I had been taken to see my husband and Mr Fanie Jacobs of the Conservative Party. MR PRINSLOO And on this same tape recording, is there any version recorded that pertains to what your husband told you as to what he experienced in his cells in the presence of the police officer? MRS DERBY-LEWIS "Everyone has his own method of how to break them" MR PRINSLOO Mrs Derby-Lewis, you also testified under cross-examination with reference to a journalist and you described in one respect that they were bribed and then upon a question of His Lordship Mr Justice Wilson ...[End of tape 2A, day 6 - no follow-on sound] MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON You call them as agents of influence? MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Pardon? CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS No, no, I want - when I used the word bribery, it was yesterday afternoon and I was very tired and Mr Justice Wilson I thought, put it in a better light and I simple want to confirm that. MS KHAMPEPE But Mrs Derby-Lewis, are those not the words you used during your criminal trial - bribery? You referred to people as having been bribed? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes, but I would like to correct that in the light of what Mr Justice Wilson said. CHAIRPERSON Yes, proceed. MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS Perceived about what? MR PRINSLOO MRS DERBY-LEWIS You mean after the assassination? MR PRINSLOO Yes. MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON If the Committee feels the need for it, we will ask you for them. MRS DERBY-LEWIS CHAIRPERSON MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes. MR PRINSLOO And similarly Mrs Derby-Lewis, you have copies of reporting that pertains to your writings and what you said about journalists, is that correct? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR PRINSLOO A(e) Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON A(e)? MR PRINSLOO Correct Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, it has two sections, the one will be A(e)1 and A(e)2, headed: The Liberation Gravy Train - the following one. Just a moment Mr Chairman. MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thanks very much. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. MR BRANDT In view of the fact that Colonel van Niekerk is currently a practising attorney and Warrant Officer Beetge is involved in business transactions, it is the situation that they are sitting here and they are losing money - I would in the aforementioned - I would in the aforementioned...[indistinct], request this Committee to give directions as to whether it is still necessary for these three witnesses or potential witnesses to remain here and ...[indistinct] myself and my attorney. My request is that the witnesses and myself and my instructing attorney be excused from further attendance. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, if I recollect clearly, these witnesses were subpoenaed at the request of your client. MR BIZOS Yes, Mr Chairman, that is so because the allegations were made against them by Mr Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus at the end of his evidence in the August sitting and we thought it advisable that they should be here. The decision as to whether they should be called or not, is not ours - this is not a trial on whom we have any onus to discharge, the Committee we submit has the task of being satisfied that they have heard all the evidence that is necessary to give a proper judgement. And the applicants are the people primarily concerned, if they want to call them, of course they may be called or if the Committee wants to call them, they may be called, we do not feel that it is incumbent upon us to assume any onus on ourselves and call any witnesses Mr Chairman. That is our attitude and we do not wish to say anything further in relation to the application made by my learned friend Mr Brandt. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo, Ms van der Walt, what is your attitude by this request by Mr Brandt? MR PRINSLOO MR BIZOS There is an incorrect statement of fact Mr Chairman, we did not subpoena ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON No, I understand ...[intervention] MR BIZOS We requested. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the subpoena was done by the Committee at their request. MR PRINSLOO The request of Mr Bizos. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON At any rate, the point of the matter is that these gentlemen are asking to be excused and as far as you are concerned, you have no objection to that? MR PRINSLOO We have no objection Mr Chairman. MS VAN DER WALT I also have no objection. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? ADV MPSHE No objection Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Walt, I would imagine that the views expressed by your colleague is the same? MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chair, yes, I also confirmed that I have no objection, the testimony is on record. CHAIRPERSON Denzil? These gentlemen - are they here? MR BRANDT They are indeed Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Brandt, certainly you and your attorney are excused from further attendance. The Committee has come to the conclusion that they do not require the three gentlemen whom we have subpoenaed, to be here and that they are excused from further attendance as well and we thank them for having taken the trouble to be here. MR BRANDT MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, in relation to Exhibit A(e), I would like to put one question and one question only, to Mrs Derby-Lewis. CHAIRPERSON Did you say Mr Derby-Lewis? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS Mrs Derby-Lewis, the person who produced the document. CHAIRPERSON A(e)1? MR BIZOS A(e)1. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Derby-Lewis, do you have a copy of this document? MRS DERBY-LEWIS Thank you, yes. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS Yes, this is simple a re-print of an overseas newspaper report - as I mentioned before, there was no investigation done in South Africa. A recent report in the London Sun - it starts off at, brought into focus something which South African ...[indistinct] and so forth. MR BIZOS Who was the local correspondent that had pre-empted this scoop of yours? MRS DERBY-LEWIS It was the London Sun, it was a clipping from the London Sun. MR BIZOS "A recent report in the London Sun brought into focus something of the South African liberalists seemed to ...[indistinct]" Who wrote that? MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS Is this quoting the London Sun or your ...[intervention] MRS DERBY-LEWIS No is paraphrasing the London Sun. MR BIZOS MRS DERBY-LEWIS MR BIZOS NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, we propose to call Doctor Ferdie Hartzenberg as the next witness, may we just adjourn briefly in order to get our documents ready - it will be a brief adjournment? CHAIRPERSON Please try and be as quiet as possible and try and avoid disturbing the proceedings during the short adjournment whilst we are away, thank you very much. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS WITNESS EXCUSED MR PRINSLOO Thank you for your indulgence Mr Chairman, members of the Committee. JUDGE NGOEPE MR PRINSLOO I will arrange that. Chairperson, the next witness is Doctor Ferdie Hartzenberg. FERDIE HARTZENBERG (sworn states) MR PRINSLOO May I continue? Doctor Ferdie Hartzenberg, you are the leader of the Conservative Party, is that correct? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Doctor, in 1993 during the murder of Mr Chris Hani, Doctor Andries Treurnicht who is now deceased, was the leader of the Conservative Party? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Were you at that stage, the Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR PRINSLOO The applicant on the left, Mr Clive-Derby Lewis, was he at that stage a member of the Conservative Party? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, he was and he was also a member of the Executive Committee for Transvaal of the Conservative Party. MR PRINSLOO Doctor Hartzenberg, did you at that stage also know Mrs Derby-Lewis? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, I knew her well, she was a member of the Conservative Party and she also served on various committees and did a lot of work for the Conservative Party. MR PRINSLOO The second applicant, Mr Walus, was he known to you at that stage? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG It was founded in 1982, 20th of March 1982. MR PRINSLOO And at that stage, was Mr Derby-Lewis a member of the Party? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, he was a founder member of the CP. MR PRINSLOO How would you describe his contribution to the Party from the time the Party was founded until the time of his arrest? MR HARTZENBERG Mr Derby-Lewis was a very committed member of the Conservative Party and he served the cause of the Party with enthusiasm and commitment and I was under the impression that Mr Derby-Lewis believed in the cause of the Conservative Party and he worked for the cause with zeal. MR PRINSLOO Now, according to your opinion, was he popular amongst the members of the public or not? MR HARTZENBERG He was very popular amongst members of the public and especially popular amongst the English speaking supporters of the CP. MR PRINSLOO And in the Party itself, in the caucus? MR HARTZENBERG Mr Clive Derby-Lewis was a respected and valued member of the Conservative Party. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG In respect of what? MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG We came to the conclusion in 1982, that the way in which the National Party was meeting the future would lead to our nation losing our freedom, that no nation or people would be free and that one would have a one Party Government which would be a majority Party Government and that is how it worked out and it was for that reason that we founded the Conservative Party. From 1989 onwards, we realised that he course which the National Party of the day and the Government of the day was following, was actually forcing things to a head and that we were on the point of losing our liberty and for that reason we became more serious in the propagating of our cause. MR PRINSLOO At what stage did you realise this in the Party? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO When was this? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO At that stage Doctor, did it influence or effect the policies or the approach of the CP - this is now the unbanning of the ANC and the SACP, did it have an effect? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Now, after the ANC and the SACP were unbanned and were actually allowed in the country and members of the leadership were allowed into the country, what were - in your view, what were the consequences? MR HARTZENBERG Well, negotiations then commenced and one got the situation that there was the Pretoria Minute - and that was the result of negotiations, where certain things had been agreed upon, for instance, that the armed struggle would be given up, that weapons would be handed over. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG Well, the ANC did not actually surrender their arms, I think it is known that at that stage Mr Chris Hani also strove to establish a force of about 10.000 troops who could be a back-up in case negotiations failed so that that force could then act and then negotiations would be decided in favour of the ANC. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR PRINSLOO Who was this member? MR HARTZENBERG It was Mr Pienaar of the Conservative Party, he was a member for Potgietersrus. MR PRINSLOO Is this Mr Schalk Pienaar? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG Yes, it was raised by Mr Pienaar. MR PRINSLOO And this announcement in Parliament by Mr Schalk Pienaar, was this reported in the press? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, it was. MR PRINSLOO And he announced this in Parliament? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR PRINSLOO I ask leave to hand this in as Exhibit A(f). Doctor Hartzenberg, this information which was so received and revealed in Parliament, what were the consequences of this? How was it received in Parliament and the country as a whole? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Doctor, after the unbanning of the SACP and the ANC and the developments which followed after that - this is before April 1993, was the constitutional option still an option for the CP? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Did the Conservative Party then start looking at other options and did they implement these or not? MR HARTZENBERG In the course of 1992, we realised that because those options were diminishing, we would have to mobilise our people to demonstrate in a visible manner that we were quite serious for the preservation of our liberty. The mobilisation action amounted to us - in respect of our own people and 18 interest groups which included Education, Agriculture, Local Government et., and also security and safety, we mobilised our people on 18 different fronts to in fact take steps and plan how we would actually maintain our freedom. MR PRINSLOO What did this mean for members of the Conservative Party to maintain your freedom, how was it seen by them? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Did the Conservative Party see as a probability that the SACP/ANC alliance would take power in the country? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, it was very clear to us. MR PRINSLOO Was it acceptable to the Party? MR HARTZENBERG No, we were in no way in favour of surrendering our freedom voluntarily. I may remind you that the beginning of the century our forefathers were similarly not prepared to give up the liberty to Great Britain, so we were not prepared for that and we are still striving for freedom. And furthermore we realised that there was more to it, there was also the issue of a take-over by the South African Communist Party or a Party which would be dominated by the SACP. And at that stage it was already clear that communism was a failure, globally it brought only misery and death world-wide, it brought no economic prosperity and we were not prepared to go in that direction and especially to accept it voluntarily, we wanted to avoid living in such a dispensation. MR PRINSLOO Now, in what light did your party - the CP, view the Communist Party of South Africa? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Doctor, in what light did your Party view Chris Hani? MR HARTZENBERG And that members of Parliament had to be killed, that certain members of the judiciary had to be killed, that the country had to be turned into a wasteland. And we in fact regarded him as more or less enemy number one of the Afrikaner. MR PRINSLOO Now Doctor, how did you view his position - especially as a possible successor in the SACP or as a possible leader of the Party or as President of the country? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO At the stage that Mr Derby-Lewis was taken into custody, did the Party distance itself from Mr Derby-Lewis or what did they do? MR HARTZENBERG The Conservative Party never - in any circumstances, distanced itself from Mr Derby-Lewis. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG And perhaps Chairperson, I should mention now how the Conservative Party feel about this matter and I think I must take you to the submission of the ANC made to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission: "African National Congress Statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission" Afterwards, they asked Mr Oliver Tambo what his view was on this matter and Mr Tambo said: "Massacres have been perpetrated against civilians - Mamelodi - a massacre, Utenhage - a massacre, Botswana - a massacre, Queenstown - a massacre. Certainly we are beginning to see South Africans of all races burying their loved ones who have died in the South African situation, the whole of South Africa is beginning to bleed. Now Sir, in exactly the same way the Conservative Party viewed the act of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, we realised that the country was in a situation of murder and mayhem. Political murders in 1993 were higher than in any other period before that and the people had been incited. Mr Hani had said that Whites should be maimed, members of Parliament should be killed, an army should be established and people died, there were necklace murders. Leaders in Kwa Zulu Natal were killed and we realised that at some or other point the focus would be on the Afrikaners and we had to plan to protect ourselves against attacks such as these. We realised that a climate had been created in South Africa and there was a situation of high tension. And we realised that Mr Clive Derby-Lewis had subjectively thought that he was acting in the cause of the Conservative Party and for the cause of the Afrikaner people and for that we had sympathy and that is why we supported him right from the outset because we accepted that he was acting on behalf of our cause. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG And we also wanted to know whether the statements being made amongst others by Mrs Winnie Mandela, that there was a faction - it was a faction of the ANC - it appeared in a London newspaper, she said that an ANC faction had been involved in the murder of Mr Hani and we wanted to know whether this was being investigated. MR PRINSLOO Now, did you have certainty in your own mind or in the Conservative Party, that whilst Mr Derby-Lewis was being detained in terms of Sections 29, how did you feel about his involvement? Was it simply based on speculation and reports in the media? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG MR HARTZENBERG Doctor, what was the climate existing at the time in the country - especially in right-wing circles, in respect of violence or non-violence and take-over? MR HARTZENBERG Well, we realised we were living in a violent society and our point of departure was that we had to plan so that - if we could avoid it, that we would not be part of the new South Africa and we realised that that would lead to action against us, violent action against us and we realised that we had to prepare ourselves for that. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO If I could put it this way - no, I withdraw the question. Mr Koos Botha, was he known to you? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, Mr Koos Botha was a CP member for Wonderboom. MR PRINSLOO In what capacity did he serve in the CP? MR HARTZENBERG He was an MP. MR PRINSLOO Is it so that Mr Botha was prosecuted on one particular occasion? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR PRINSLOO Or he was about to be prosecuted? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR PRINSLOO And he received amnesty for the planting of a bomb at Hillview School? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, Mr Botha was involved in the planting of a bomb at Hillview School and Mr Botha received amnesty for the act which he committed because it was a political act. The school - if I remember correct, was to be used by the ANC or was about to be allocated to the ANC and that is why the bombs were planted and Mr Botha received amnesty. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG JUDGE NGOEPE Sorry, Mr Prinsloo, let me interrupt here. At the time when Mr Botha committed the offence in respect of which he got amnesty, was he still a member of the CP? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, when he committed the act he was a member of the CP and afterwards he became in revolt against the CP on policy grounds and then he was expelled and then the court case took place. JUDGE NGOEPE So in all probability, he must have - in his papers for amnesty, he must have said that at the time when he committed the offence he was a member of a publicly known political organisation. MR HARTZENBERG I think that would have been correct if he had said that and I assume that he also said that he did that to further the cause of the Conservative Party and I think it is correct that he received amnesty. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, I was going to allow the witness to carry on and then put this matter correct. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Well, perhaps it might be clear. Mr Hartzenberg, when you use the word amnesty, what you really mean is indemnity in terms of the Indemnity Act, is that not so? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Chairperson, if I remember correctly, the Honourable Committee member, Mrs Khampepe confirmed that at the Committee hearing in the City Council, the matter was raised there as well. Doctor Hartzenberg, the expelling of Mr Botha, did that relate to the policy of the Conservative Party at all? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Now during the session in Parliament, one of the CP members Mr Daan du Plessis, actually tackled Mr Botha? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Now, what was the context, how did it happen? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Did it have anything to do with the CP policy - that attack? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Just a moment Chairperson. MR HARTZENBERG Mr Chair, I already referred to this quotation from the submission and we are in exactly the same situation, we understand and we have sympathy that in the time of high tension and during times where people lost their lives on a very large scale in South Africa, people could have argued that the time was ripe to act and to carry into effect a deed which could perhaps steer the situation in a different direction. That was our attitude, that we believed that Mr Clive Derby-Lewis as well as Mr Walus, had subjectively argued that they were acting on behalf of the cause of the Conservative Party. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Doctor Hartzenberg, during 92/93 - even from as early as 1990, just to refer to certain topics without burdening the record too much, many statements were made in The Patriot - first of all, is it the voice-piece of the CP? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG Yes, Mr Chair, we used strong language, it was a serious situation and we were serious and these quotations are all a good reflection of the climate that existed at the time. MR PRINSLOO Would you say or would you disagree that this rhetoric - all these contributions and the things that were discussed in Parliament etc., in any way contributed to decisions taken by the applicants? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, I think so, the reply is positive. MR PRINSLOO Mr Derby-Lewis himself, do you know him as a military person? MR HARTZENBERG Well, we knew that he was a military person who for many years did military service, we knew him as such - he was Commandant Clive Derby-Lewis in his time. MR PRINSLOO Doctor, could you please tell the Committee what the relationship was between Mr Clive Derby-Lewis and the late Doctor Andries Treurnicht? MR HARTZENBERG The relationship was very good, very good. MR PRINSLOO Could it have been possible that the late Doctor Treurnicht could have discussed intimate matters with Mr Derby-Lewis with regard to policy etc.? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, quite possibly. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG I would reply as follows Mr Chair, statements made by leaders could have been interpreted by people that they had to take action, for example statements like: "The third freedom struggle had started" and a whole series MR BIZOS The question of not to take action or to commit certain deeds, the question was: "Whether anyone in the Conservative Party leadership did or said anything prior to the 10th, which could reasonably be interpreted by any one of the Conservative Party members as a licence to commit any act which would bring about chaos in South Africa"? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS You were asked for an opinion and you expressed it towards the end of your evidence about the subjective feelings of the two applicants, I am asking you whether blowing up a school is calculated to bring about chaos in South Africa which was described by one of the applicants as: "The killing of a couple of hundred White people as a result of the action, which in turn must have resulted in the killing of hundreds of other and the eventual civil war between - particularly between Black and White, can you please tell us whether either the action of Mr Koos Botha or any statement that has been made by any leader of the Conservative Party could be interpreted as leading to that chaos? MR PRINSLOO MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS I am not asking you about a theoretical question, I am asking you - quoting the evidence of the first applicant in this case, and for you to please tell us as the leader of the Conservative Party, which member of the Conservative Party and when, made any statement which could have been interpreted as a licence to commit the act that I have described? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG He had to get up immediately after this person and that was the point of view that he expressed, that is entirely correct but the fact is that regardless of that Mr Koos Botha received amnesty and Mr du Plessis drafted a motion in this case which he submitted to the CP Congress on the 3rd of October, in which he asked the Congress to support Mr Clive Derby-Lewis in his application for amnesty. MR BIZOS Can we please confine ourselves to answering the question Doctor Hartzenberg? MR HARTZENBERG I attempted to reply to your question. MR BIZOS Well, let me put it to you again, if anything that was said at the Voortrekker Monument is relied upon by the applicants or you here, how consistent is that with a statement of Mr du Plessis in Parliament representing the Conservative Party, that out of the 30.000 people that were at the monument he, Koos Botha was the only one to interpret it as a licence to damage a school, is it consistent or is it inconsistent? MR HARTZENBERG Sir, it is exactly consistent with the statement made by Mr Oliver Tambo in the submission of the ANC, where he says: "If I were approached to give permission, I would naturally say: "Not" or: "No" but I would understand that somebody would act in that way" MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Doctor Hartzenberg, you have not been called to do an analysis of principles, you have been asked to give evidence on facts from which the Committee may make a decision. Please listen to the questions and answer them ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG Sir, ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Please do not interrupt me and you can leave the argument and the other facts and answer of other questions in their turn, please answer my question which is a simple one. Is what Mr du Plessis said in Parliament, consistent with an understanding that there was a licence to commit acts of violence by the CP, is it consistent or is it inconsistent Doctor Hartzenberg? MR HARTZENBERG Mr Chair, may I just gain clarity on a point of order? CHAIRPERSON Just say yes or no to this question. MR HARTZENBERG No, Sir, I cannot, it is not a simple matter of saying yes or no. CHAIRPERSON MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, I respectfully apply that the witness be ordered to answer the question. CHAIRPERSON MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Mr Chairman with respect, that is not an answer to the question, I have asked a clear and precise question - is it consistent with Mr du Plessis saying that the interpretation of the speech of Doctor Treurnicht at the monument could not possibly have been interpreted as a licence to commit violence because 30.000 other people there present did not interpret it that way, is there a contradiction in what Mr Prinsloo said or not? MR HARTZENBERG Mr du Plessis. MR BIZOS du Plessis, I beg your pardon. MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG I was there. MR BIZOS At the monument? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, I was also at the monument. MR BIZOS Did you in any way contradict what Mr du Plessis said in Parliament? MR HARTZENBERG No. MR BIZOS Why not? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Surely it is not the job of a parliamentarian when speaking of a colleague, to misinterpret facts? MR HARTZENBERG Mr Chair, it is definitely not a policy matter, it is a practical situation which cropped up and occurred. Mr du Plessis took a certain point of view, it is possible that other people could express other points of view and I had no problem with what Mr du Plessis said. MR BIZOS Was the policy ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Was the question of what the policy of the Conservative Party was in relation to violence, a policy matter or not? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS So, the answer to the question is a short: "Yes, the policy of the Conservative Party in relation to violence is an important matter and it is a policy matter and not a subjective matter"? MR HARTZENBERG Mr Chair, if you talk about policy but with reference to a specific situation like this which had arose and where a person could interpret - persons could interpret it differently. Here two member of Parliament of the CP - and you are referring to policy here but the question that is really concerned is: "What is this reference to the third freedom struggle and how was it interpreted" and the two members interpreted it differently. MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO With respect Mr Chairman, ...[inaudible] ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Was the question ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO With respect Mr Chairman, the witness did answer the question. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS With respect, there was no answer Mr Chairman. To be told the question is: "How was the third - the second or the third war of liberation fought", is not an answer to the question as to whether or not the question of the policy of the CP in relation to violence, is a policy matter or not? Was it a matter of policy when the debate in Parliament was taking place or not? CHAIRPERSON I think that as I understand the evidence, violence as a matter of policy did not form part of the policy of the CP. The emphasis seems to be that the interpretation of the policy of the CP is what has led to the present problem, members of the CP have interpreted to mean that they could resort to violence - that is how I understand that evidence. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Let me ask you question on the basis of your answer, you say that ...[intervention] MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS No, you said that they neither may have been correct and there may have been a third point of view of the policy, could you please tell us ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG Yes, and I told you ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Let me finish my question please Sir. Can you please tell us the third view of the CP policy that may have existed at the time, which is not that of Mr Botha nor that of Mr du Plessis? CHAIRPERSON Mr Hartzenberg, I understood or rather heard part of your answer, it is possible that the rest of your answer was not heard completely, will you please restate that - as to what your view was not the third view was? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS So, to summarise the third option is that you were not to take active - be pro-active in violence but you could use violence in self-defence, that was the third version of the policy. MR HARTZENBERG There are circumstances Sir, where one could react violently or go over to violent action where it is justified. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION - 4 DECEMBER 1997 FERDIE HARTZENBERG (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, thank you. Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. Doctor Hartzenberg, when did you become the Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party? MR HARTZENBERG From he time of the founding of the Conservative Party in 1982 Mr Chair. MR BIZOS When did Doctor Treurnicht become seriously ill? MR HARTZENBERG That happened in April 1993. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG Yes, if I remember correctly, the last duty he fulfilled before he became ill, was that he was involved in discussion of KOSAG and after that he went down to the Cape, starting feeling bad. MR BIZOS Just give us a month when he had to ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG That was in April. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG Yes, as far as I can remember, he regularly attended Parliament. MR BIZOS The relationship between you and Mr Derby-Lewis, was that a friendly one? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, it was a friendly relationship. MR BIZOS Was there complete trust between the two of you? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR BIZOS And if he approached you on any confidential basis and imputed any information to you, you would no doubt respected the confidentiality? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR BIZOS And vice-versa, if you spoke to him and conveyed any confidential matter to him, you would expect him to respect the confidentiality? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, I had no reason to expect anything else. MR BIZOS And not only were you political colleagues but you were also personal friends? MR HARTZENBERG That is entirely correct. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG Mr Chair, we did not visit each other at home because we lived too far apart, we saw each other in our capacity as parliamentarians and Presidential Council Members and as Executive Council Members of the Conservative Party and on that basis we saw each other regularly. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG That is entirely correct Mr Chair, Mr Derby-Lewis was also a member of the Presidential Council at the time and they did not sit continuously, if I remember correctly they sat two weeks per month, in other words we did not see each other as regularly as parliamentarians normally did. MR BIZOS But there were overlapping periods? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, we saw each other regularly and everything was in order. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG No, Sir. MR BIZOS Did he come to you and ask you what the policy of the Conservative Party was in relation to the elimination of Mr Hani? MR HARTZENBERG No, Mr Chair. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG No, Mr Chair. MR BIZOS Did he come and discuss with you any moral question that was - concerning him, about the taking of human life by way of murder on behalf of the Conservative Party? MR HARTZENBERG No, Mr Chair. MR BIZOS And from what you have already told us, the relationship between you and him was such and the opportunities were available for him to ask you those matters if he wanted to? MR HARTZENBERG That is possible. MR BIZOS Have you viewed the television programme in which you were interviewed by Mr Lester Venter on the 20th of April 1993? Have you seen that video? MR HARTZENBERG No, I never saw that video. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG No. MR BIZOS Had you been shown a transcript R6? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, Sir, that is correct. MR BIZOS Have you had an opportunity to read it and to study it? MR HARTZENBERG I read through it. MR BIZOS And does it correctly report what you said to Mr Lester Venter on television? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Doctor Hartzenberg, I merely asked you whether you agree that what has been transcribed is correct, please ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG I said yes, ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Could you please wait for the questions that I want to ask you and if you want to add something which I have left out, I am sure that counsel that called you will ask you any questions that I have left out. Just answer the questions please Sir. MR HARTZENBERG I would like to point out that that is exactly what I did. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG I think Mr Chair, Mr Bizos also has to accept that I have the freedom to answer the questions in the way that I wish to and have to and not the way in which he wishes me to answer the questions. MR BIZOS Listen to the question please and we will get on quicker Doctor Hartzenberg. Will you please look at the transcript, Exhibit R6, have you got it in front of you? MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON It must have been handed in Mr Prinsloo, because we all have it. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR PRINSLOO Agenda - News Interview, is that the document that Mr Bizos is referring to? MR BIZOS R6. CHAIRPERSON Pardon? MR BIZOS R6. CHAIRPERSON Yes, just one paragraph? JUDGE WILSON No. MR BIZOS The paragraph Mr Chairman, LV - Doctor Hartzenberg in the Recent Past. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BIZOS Now, you have this document before you "Doctor Hartzenberg in the Recent Past - A Member of the Conservative Party, Koos Botha Involved in Bombing" ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON This is page two - for people who are looking for it. MR BIZOS Shall I start again "Doctor Hartzenberg in the Recent Past - A Member of the Conservative Party, Koos Botha Involved in Bombing in Pretoria, now Mr Derby-Lewis is implicated in the Hani assassination. The question is, is there a culture of violence developing in the Conservative Party? FH is your initials? Was that your answer to the question? MR HARTZENBERG That is my reply and if you look further you will see that ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Please listen for the next question Doctor Hartzenberg ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG And it was outside the Conservative Party. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Now, in this answer ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman with respect, the answer goes further than Mr Bizos has allowed him to go. JUDGE WILSON As I read it, the answer to the question that you put to him Mr Bizos, is set out in three paragraphs there. MR HARTZENBERG Yes. JUDGE WILSON Not just the one you read. MR BIZOS Is the paragraph that I have read part of your answer? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR BIZOS And particularly Is there any ambiguity in that portion of your answer? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Doctor Hartzenberg, the question was: "Is there any ambiguity in that part of your answer"? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS If there was no ambiguity in that part of your answer, why was it an ambiguous policy that you gave us three alternatives of yesterday afternoon? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS "The violence is not in the Conservative Party, it is outside theConservative Party" "The violence is not in the Conservative Party" Is that a clear and unambiguous statement that there is no element of violence in the policy of the Conservative Party? MR HARTZENBERG Mr Chair, that is correct, I said there is no violence in the Conservative Party, it is outside. And that violence had increased to such an extent that in 1989 there were 1.400 political murders, in 1990 after the unbanning, there were 3.600, in 1993, there were 3.700 and that is the way things increased and it was occurring right around us. And I would like to state to Mr Bizos that 3.700 murders in one year is more than the number of people of South Africa who died in one single year in the Second World War - in a full scale war, not a low intensity war, but it was the equal of a full scale war. MR BIZOS "The violence is not in the Conservative Party" Is that an unambiguous statement of what the Conservative Party policy is? MR HARTZENBERG Naturally Sir, if 3.700 murder occurred in 1993 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Hartzenberg, I know you would like to expand on your answers but you will save yourself a lot of time if you said: "Yes, that statement is unambiguous" and leave it at that. MR HARTZENBERG Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR HARTZENBERG Mr Chair, the violence was not in the Conservative Party because during 1992 there were 3.600 outside the Conservative Party. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] that is not the question that has been put to you, if that question is put to you then you can say so but right now you should just say: "Yes, that sentence is unambiguous" MR HARTZENBERG It was unambiguous. MR BIZOS Now, I want to go next to the final paragraph on that page - Lester Venter "Forgive him for interrupting you there, I hear what you say - that the Conservative Party is not involved in the planning of violence" Is that another clear indication - an unambiguous statement as to the policy of the Conservative Party in relation to violence? MR HARTZENBERG Correct. MR BIZOS Is that correct? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR BIZOS Unambiguous, right. Then the first paragraph on page three Is that also an unambiguous statement of CP policy in relation to violence? MR HARTZENBERG That is correct Sir. MR BIZOS And then, if we could go to the paragraph that starts "Not in the Conservative Party" Is that an unambiguous statement of what the policy of the Conservative Party is? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, in the Conservative Party - no violence, the violence was outside and we had to start preparing for when the violence came our way. MR BIZOS Right, now can we go on? "If one looks" Is that a clear and unambiguous statement by you in relation to the policy of the Conservative Party to violence? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. I repeat Sir, the Conservation now and nor in the past never planned to commit violent deeds on an offensive basis but we had to look at how we were going to defend ourselves against the violence taking place. MR BIZOS Mr Derby-Lewis - I beg your pardon, Doctor Hartzenberg, do you say at the end of that paragraph "And that is why the Conservative put out case, we made the statement and we propose a policy just to prevent that situation. The situation referred to means the use of violence" Is that correct? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG I said: "Yes" Sir, and I am saying to Mr Bizos what the circumstances were which existed at the time. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER Microphone. MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] the unambiguous statements made by you in relation to the policy of the Conservative Party, then the question by Mr Lester Venter MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Do you agree that the statement of the policy at the time that you were giving this in interview, that that time had not yet arrived? MR HARTZENBERG It was in the process of developing and that is why we were planning, that is why we were mobilising. MR BIZOS Now, if we could - may we go to the second last paragraph on page five "We have only one point on our agenda and whether we fight elections or participate in Parliament in any forum or in mobilisation and that the freedom and self determination of our nation. And if it becomes clear that negotiations will not deliver that, then it would be meaningless to participate, then we will sign our own funeral arrangements and we are going to do that ...[intervention] JUDGE WILSON "we are not going to do that" MR BIZOS Sorry, yes "not going to do that, we are not prepared to do that" Is that what you said? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, correct. MR BIZOS Now, at the time that you made this statement your Party was taking part in part in the negotiations in CODESSA. MR HARTZENBERG CODESSA was dead at that time Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS On your Party was taking part in those negotiations? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS And your Party was publicly committed to a policy of persuading the other parties that were there that they must concede to the Conservative Party and other Afrikaner groups, the right to self determination? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG We were there Mr Chair, and from the first day - the first vote, we refrained from voting because the agreed pre-conditions were not agreed to - were not complied with, namely that we were coming together to plan because no planning was taking place and from the very first day we realised that we were dealing with a situation where there were prejudices and we continued - we stated our case, and later on in the year it was decided that we could not look at ...[intervention] MR BIZOS We are talking about April 1993 ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG Yes, but the first ...[intervention] MR BIZOS You were negotiating, you were hoping for a political solution to the problems of the country and the non-negotiable part of your attitude was that the other parties had to agree to a form of self-determination? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Yes. MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Yes, I merely want to establish as a fact, that in April you were party to the negotiations of the multi-party conference, is that correct. MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS And you continued until July? MR HARTZENBERG I cannot remember exactly, it was slightly later. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG Mr Chair, in our participation in those negotiations at Kempton Park, we clearly demonstrated that we preferred a peaceful solution and not a violent one and that is still our preference. MR BIZOS Yes, and nobody ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG But the point is, we never got a settlement. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chair, Mr Hartzenberg is not given the opportunity to reply properly. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] because - let him complete is answer please. MR BIZOS Did you want to complete your answer? MR HARTZENBERG Mr Bizos, we gave preference to negotiations above violence and when it became clear that there was not going to be a peaceful solution, we withdrew and we consistently spelt out the consequences - that the needs of South Africa were not being met and we are experiencing it at present where 20.000 people are being killed. MR BIZOS Let us just confine ourselves to April 1993 Sir. At the time, you and other right-wing Parties hoped for a peaceful solution to the constitutional negotiations that were going on at Kempton Park, correct? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, correct. MR BIZOS And sometime after April, you and other - when I say you I mean the Conservative Party, and other parties formed various alliances in order to strengthen your demand for self-determination, is that correct? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, that is correct Sir, perhaps I would also like to say to Mr Bizos that from the first day we noted that there were many prejudices against self-determination and I can accept that Mr Clive Derby-Lewis was entitled - from the beginning, to draw the conclusion that we were not going to succeed and that is eventually what was proven. MR BIZOS You were not asked about that opinion ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG Yes, but I give you that - if is necessary for the record to also put it on the record. MR BIZOS Yes. We will deal with Mr Derby-Lewis and his possible understanding of the policy that you ...[indistinct] enunciated on the 20th of April. Please be patient with me Doctor Hartzenberg, and answer the question and we - you will be re-examined by your counsel in order to tell us your views about Mr Derby-Lewis if I omit it, please answer the questions Sir. Now, COSAC was formed, were you party to it? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR BIZOS And was that an attempt at putting pressure on the negotiation process? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Was COSAC in existence in April? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, it existed. MR BIZOS And was a further alliance formed thereafter, in order to try and get a political solution to which the Conservative Party was a member? What was that alliance called? MR HARTZENBERG It was the freedom alliance which arose from COSAC. MR BIZOS Were you in court when Mr Walus gave evidence as to why he killed Mr Hani and what he hoped to achieve, were you in court, were you here? CHAIRPERSON When you say here, do you mean ...[inaudible] MR HARTZENBERG ...[inaudible] JUDGE WILSON MR BIZOS Oh. CHAIRPERSON Just formulate your question, what you really mean to say is that was he ...[intervention] MR BIZOS Were you here when - were you at the Committee meeting - which I think was here when these questions were asked Mr Chairman, when Mr Walus gave evidence as to what he hoped to achieve by killing Mr Hani? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS He further went on and said that he realised that if Black people killed White people, White people would retaliate and there would be real chaos in the country and that the army and the police and the security forces would be forced to put down the - put an end to the chaos that had been created and then the army, police - in the situation that arose, would persuade Afrikaners to take part in a revolt and that the Government would come into the hands of the Conservative Party and other right-wing parties, in order to prevent the take-over. Now, this is what he said, did any portion of that form the policy of the Conservative Party? MR HARTZENBERG Chairperson, Mr Walus gave his evidence under oath and I accept that when he said that he meant it and that he thought that it was possible. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS That was not the question Sir. MR HARTZENBERG JUDGE WILSON The question was not the planning as I understood it, the question was: "Was that the policy of the Party"? MR HARTZENBERG CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] I will take that as an answer, thank you Mr Chairman. Can you please tell me - point specifically to any statement or act performed by the Conservative Party or made by the Conservative Party that my have given Mr Walus this idea? MR HARTZENBERG I think I must point out to you once again, that at that stage - in the previous year 3.000 odd people were killed and in the year - we are talking about 3.700 were killed, violence was rampant in South Africa and we lived in a very explosive situation. The Conservative Party was busy mobilising and we said expressly that we would not voluntarily surrender our freedom and that we were trying to retain it and if we were then forced, we would defend ourselves. MR BIZOS Can you please indicate to us any particular statement of the CP or any act committed by the CP, which would have given Mr Walus the idea that he was carrying out Conservative Party policy by committing an act which would throw the country into chaos? Please do not tell us what other people did - was any statement made by the CP or was there any act committed by the CP that it may have given Mr Walus the idea that he was carrying out Conservative Party policy by killing Mr Hani for the consequences that I have put to you? MR HARTZENBERG We indicated to you yesterday that the slogan: "The Third Freedom Struggle", that that had already started and that was interpreted differently by different people and not only Mr Clive Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus but also Mr Koos Botha, they all interpreted that in their own way and they interpreted it as justification for proceeding to action. MR BIZOS Other than those two, is there any other statement or act of the Conservative Party - that you can refer the Committee to, which might have enabled Mr Walus to interpret the CP policy in the manner I described to you? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] Bizos. MR HARTZENBERG Sir, if you give me a chance ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Just hold it, this is apart from his answer that they had come to formulate this slogan called: "The Third Freedom Struggle". MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Now, I understand your answer that the slogan: "The Third Freedom Struggle", may have been interpreted by people in their own way, the question is: "Apart from that slogan, was there any other statement made by the CP which would lead Mr Walus to believe that he was carrying out policy"? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Well, if that was so, why did you give the answer that you gave on top of page three of R6? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS May I appeal to you that we confine ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Can we please confine ourselves to the facts of this case as they existed at April 1993, Doctor Hartzenberg? MR HARTZENBERG CHAIRPERSON May I just interrupt please, this is not going to take you very much further Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman, I will abide by that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BIZOS Now, Mr Derby-Lewis was on the Transvaal Executive of the Conservative Party, correct? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Now, in connection with the mobilisation, the option of resistance was set out - according to Mrs Derby-Lewis who was there, as a contingency plan and not something that was decided to go into, do you agree with that interpretation? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS The question was: "Was it a contingency plan which could only be put into operation by the decision of the Party"? MR HARTZENBERG If an extraordinary step had to be taken, then it probably would have necessitated a decision by the Party. MR BIZOS In relation to the policy of the Conservative Party, you as the acting leader - immediately after the 10th of April, must have taken notice of the statement made by Mr Thomas Langley? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR BIZOS The effect of which was: "We must minimise violence whatever side of the political spectrum it hits"? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG I said that yesterday, yes, that is what I said and Doctor Snyman also said what he is quoted as having said. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS But you found the National Party and the police guilty of accusing an innocent man of a crime that you believed he had not committed? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR PRINSLOO It is actually relevant Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON His evidence is on the record. Do carry on. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS And the support that was expressed by the Conservative Party at the time of applauding Mrs Derby-Lewis when she was released on bail and at Conservative Party meetings, was that on the basis that the people that were applauding him were led to believe that he was an innocent victim and that he was expected to be freed and that he as a politician - and the Conservative Party to which he belonged, would be vindicated? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS JUDGE WILSON MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] asked Mr Chairman is: "When you expressed those opinions, did you believe him to be innocent"? and the only answer I expected was that Mr Chairman - that was the only answer that was called for. CHAIRPERSON Now Mr Bizos, sometimes your question inordinately long and occasionally the answers are long and these things cancel each other out, please. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Are you aware of the fact or were you in court when that application made by Mr Derby-Lewis was discussed, in which he said under oath that he had nothing to do with the planning or with inciting or anything to do with the murder of Mr Hani? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS If I may have a moment Mr Chairman. I will find that passage but will you please have a look at H3 for a start - H3 of R3? CHAIRPERSON Just for my information, can you tell me what document this is please? MR BIZOS JUDGE WILSON R3. CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS H3 Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Anyway it is The Beeld of 20.4.93? MR BIZOS Have you got no - H3, The Beeld. Have you got it Doctor Hartzenberg? MR HARTZENBERG Yes. MR BIZOS Did you say what appears there? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS But what about the first paragraph "Here in the Conservative Party ...[intervention] INTERPRETER MR HARTZENBERG That is entirely correct. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR BIZOS JUDGE WILSON ...[inaudible] said Mr Derby-Lewis said. MR HARTZENBERG Yes, it was not Mr Derby-Lewis who made the statement, it was me. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG Sir, I read in the submission of the ANC in this regard. MR BIZOS How old was he? MR HARTZENBERG They said he was 19 years of age. MR BIZOS And was he a member of MK? MR HARTZENBERG I think so. MR BIZOS And had he been trained as a fighter by MK? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, he was trained. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG I accept what you say. MR BIZOS And did you know that the ANC defined permissible actions that should be performed and should not be performed? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, and in this specific submission, both Mr Tambo and Mr Zondo say that this was not an acceptable or allowable deed and he also says that it was a racist deed. MR BIZOS Do you know whether Mr Zondo had access to any more experienced or senior cadre of MK - when he committed this act, to whom he could refer for advice, do you know that? MR HARTZENBERG Mr Chair, I think it is an unreasonable question posed by Mr Bizos, Mr Tromp could perhaps reply. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Did you know whether he acted outside an explicit direction of his organisation? MR HARTZENBERG Sir, I can deduce that from the submission, I deduce that from the submission. JUDGE NGOEPE MR BIZOS I merely want to place the facts on the record for the purposes of argument because I believe with respect, that he actually is harping on this in order that the Committee should possibly be influenced but different cases have different facts and I think that one he relies on it in that manner, I am entitled to ask the questions. JUDGE NGOEPE MR BIZOS JUDGE NGOEPE MR BIZOS JUDGE WILSON JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] JUDGE WILSON JUDGE NGOEPE ...[inaudible] MR BIZOS He actually was executed Mr Chairman. JUDGE NGOEPE No, he was referring to a different case. JUDGE WILSON ...[inaudible] another case that he referred to. MR BIZOS He was actually convicted, sentenced to death and executed Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Bizos, you can rest assured that as far as this Committee is concerned, it is going to judge the facts of this case on the facts ...[intervention] MR BIZOS I will leave it, I will leave it ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON We will not take into account ...[intervention] MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG No. MR BIZOS And do you know whether anybody was injured? MR HARTZENBERG Not as far as I know. MR BIZOS Do you know whether - before he was granted amnesty, whether he had been granted indemnity in terms of the Further Indemnity Act of 1992? MR HARTZENBERG Sir, if you say so, I accept it but the fact is that it is from the proceedings of this Committee that it became clear that he had obtained amnesty and if you say he received indemnity, I accept that. MR BIZOS Well, I am not sure - we are checking it, but I merely asked you whether you knew. We will look at the gazettes as to whether indemnity had been granted to Mr Botha. You got a file from Mrs Derby-Lewis? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS If I may have a moment with the exhibits file. Was Exhibit A(e)1 amongst the papers that she handed to you? MR HARTZENBERG That was during a week where a debate was taking place regarding the opening speech of the State President and I told you yesterday, at that stage there were agreements entered into by the ANC and the Government which were not upheld and which were discussed in that debate - COSAC was discussed in that debate and I had to reply to those cases and matters. MR BIZOS You did not even open it? MR HARTZENBERG No, I never opened it. MR BIZOS Was there anything on top of the file? MR HARTZENBERG I cannot remember at all. MR BIZOS Did she leave anything on your desk? MR HARTZENBERG Except for the file? MR BIZOS Besides that file? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS She did not show you or put on your desk a list of names? MR HARTZENBERG Sir, she told me that there was the file, I could find information regarding the luxury in which the people of the Communist Party and so-called champions were living. MR BIZOS She did not give you nor did she leave on your desk - for your special attention, a list of names? MR HARTZENBERG No, I cannot remember that Sir. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG That is correct. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? ADV MPSHE Mr Chairman, there are no questions thank you. JUDGE NGOEPE Doctor Hartzenberg, I appreciate your statement that you supported and indeed even now, you still support Mr Derby-Lewis because you feel that he might have subjectively interpreted the policy and the events in the way that he did, you sympathise with him in that regard, what is not clear to me is MR HARTZENBERG JUDGE NGOEPE So the core of your reply - the essence, is that the CP did not approve the deed? MR HARTZENBERG MS KHAMPEPE Mr Hartzenberg, I just want to get your opinion. If it can be accepted that indeed Mr Derby-Lewis believed that by killing Mr Hani, he was furthering the cause of the CP, would you not have expected him - as a prominent member of the CP and quite a senior and found member of the CP, to have advised you - the Deputy Leader of the CP, of what he was about to embark upon? MR HARTZENBERG MS KHAMPEPE Why would he not involve anyone else if he believed - bona fides believed, that what he was about to do was in the cause - was in the interest of the Party? MR HARTZENBERG JUDGE WILSON Mr Hartzenberg, what ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER Microphone? JUDGE WILSON MR HARTZENBERG CHAIRPERSON Mr ...[intervention] ADV POTGIETER Sorry, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Derby-Lewis, you talked about the slogan - my apologies, Doctor Hartzenberg, you talked about the slogan of: "The Third Freedom Struggle" and you talked the mobilisation plan which had begun, now in that mobilisation plan was there specific reference to the fact that part of the plan was to murder the political opponents of the Conservative Party? MR HARTZENBERG No, Sir. ADV POTGIETER MR HARTZENBERG ADV POTGIETER MR HARTZENBERG ADV POTGIETER MR HARTZENBERG ADV POTGIETER I accept that, thank you. MS KHAMPEPE Just to make a follow-up Doctor Hartzenberg, one can also accept that no member of the CP - particularly because Mr Derby-Lewis was a member of the CP caucus, could make a decision on his own which impinges on issues of policy without the approval of the Executive Committee of the Party, can we accept that? MR HARTZENBERG I would accept that but I would like to say that in a situation where tension runs high, where people are killed around you, where people say - like Mr Hani, that Whites should be killed, where it says parliamentarians should be - where there has been more than one assault on the life of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, I can understand that he had said: "Now I have to go over to action" to steer this situation on a new course. CHAIRPERSON Doctor Hartzenberg, around April 1993 when this had happened, Mr Hani had long ceased engaging in the activities that he had, he was now openly propagating to solve the problems by peaceful means, is that not so? MR HARTZENBERG No, Chair, I deny that very strongly, I dispute that strongly because Mr Hani at that stage was busy establishing this army which had to serve as a backdoor - that should negotiations not go according to plan, those 10.000 people would be deployed. And if Mr Hani had come to new insights, then it was in such a way that the world was not aware of this because Mr Tambo repudiated him shortly before regarding statements he had made which actually jeopardised the negotiation process and if one were to consider all these facts, then Mr Hani was still dedicated to a violent take-over. CHAIRPERSON Is there any re-examination? EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Doctor Hartzenberg, you testified yesterday or gave evidence with regard to a motion of the Conservative Party which was accepted regarding the case of Mr Derby-Lewis, this motion which you referred to, was that accepted on 4 October 1997 or which was started then? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, this motion was accepted by a CP Congress on that date, I have a copy of the motion here. MS VAN DER WALT I am showing a signed motion, is that it? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, this is the signed version, that is the correct motion. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chair, I would like permission to hand this up as A(f), it is signed by the Secretary of the CP as dated and this is the motion referred to by the witness. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chair, I have a copy which I would like to discuss with the applicant - to which my attention had been drawn, could we ask for a short adjournment as it is time for tea, then I can take up this issue with him? CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Mr Chair, I have to clarify this matter, there is no other matter. CHAIRPERSON Is this some matter that arose as a result of the questioning by Mr Bizos? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon. MR PRINSLOO Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON FERDIE HARTZENBERG (s.u.o.) RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Honourable Chair, for you your patience and the adjournment. Doctor Hartzenberg, you testified under cross-examination by Mr Bizos, that the negotiations at Kempton Park - from the word go, was to doomed to failure as far as your Party saw it. MR HARTZENBERG MR PRINSLOO Did any of the parties who were involved in the negotiations have a double agenda, one of negotiation and on the other hand violence? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, we accepted that and we realised that if we looked at the violence that occurred and the people who were killed during that period, this is proof that parties who were involved in the negotiations also used other actions - mass actions and violence, to achieve their goals. And I think it is clear that after the ANC had failed in CODESSA, it said it would go over to violence - it would start with violence, and this actually led to the Record of Understanding and this is where the final negotiations were contained. MR PRINSLOO Could there have been people in the CP who might have thought that there were two options, one of violence and one of negotiation - in the light of the circumstances and the climate which prevailed at the time? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, Sir, I think it is possible that there were people in the CP who thought we were naive, we just negotiated, we were not availing ourselves of this other option to add ...[indistinct] to our cause and that this had to be done and they went to do this on their own. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chair, there is a question that I would like to put to the witness which did not arise in evidence in chief and during cross-examination, could I put it as single question Honourable Chair? CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may put it. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Honourable Chair. Mr Derby-Lewis testified that it also - that one of his reason for murdering Mr Chris Hani, was to unite the Afrikaner leaders, was such a reason achievable? MR HARTZENBERG Mr Chair, I did not do an analysis of the causes which brought together Afrikaner leaders, that is something that happened after the death of Mr Hani - during the first discussions of Afrikaner leaders which took place at the end of April. The Volksfront was established at the beginning of May, it could have contributed, it did not make the uniting of the Afrikaner leaders fail or not but it could have played a role. MR PRINSLOO I have no further questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON In fairness to you Mr Bizos ...[intervention] FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS Yes, there are one or two questions that I would like to ask in connection with the answers that were given to the Committee and to answers in re-examination. MR HARTZENBERG Sir, all the documents which were made available to me I read, and these documents actually showed exactly the opposite. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG No, we accepted it as an authoritive source of information, the other information which we had was for example, the Douglas Report, other Reports of the Freedom Foundation and newspaper reports regarding a trial in America which took - that was in the House of Parliament in front of Jeremaiha Denton and these all confirmed and this testimony was under oath. So the evidence that we had at our disposal which I think was at the disposal of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, was information which indicated that Mr Hani is a self-confessed murderer and that he had been linked - that he was committed to achieving Communist take-over and if it had to be through violence, he would do so. MR BIZOS Do you know whether or not the document that you were relying on was discredited at any time as a STRATCOM document? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG Sir, I tried to attempt by that means to say that I accepted the spirit, that the attitude with which the two gentlemen did what they did, it was one in which they used the point of departure that they served the cause of the Conservative Party. MR BIZOS But what about the meaning of the present and the purpose of the present and ...[intervention] MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Well, for a Party with a non-violent policy to regard murder as a present, is hardly appropriate language. MR HARTZENBERG JUDGE WILSON MR HARTZENBERG No, Judge, I think I stated that the Conservative Party did not approve what had happened. MR BIZOS Arising out of your re-examination I want to ask you one question, you took part in the negotiations in April, May, June and a portion of July, did you intend to convey - by your answers to your counsel in re-examination, that you were there for mere appearances sake or were you serious about participating in the negotiations? MR HARTZENBERG MR BIZOS Do you regard mass action as violent action? MR HARTZENBERG Yes, Sir, if I look at how many cars were damamged, how many shop windows were broken, how many properties were damaged and even people were injured, then I think mass action is - by implication, violent action. MR BIZOS MR HARTZENBERG My impression was that most did not take place peacefully. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR BIZOS Yes, the final question Mr Chairman. MR HARTZENBERG Sir, I cannot express an authoritative opinion but it is possible. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. MR HARTZENBERG Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED