amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS PRETORIA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54861&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pta/2derby5.htm CHAIRPERSON Over to you Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS We have a witness who is waiting to be called ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER Microphone? MR BIZOS A witness to be called by us is Mrs Theresa Beyers. Perhaps we could get her to sit on that side of the table there Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] be convenient. JUDGE WILSON CHAIRPERSON Mrs Beyers, are you prepared to take the oath? THERESA BEYERS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS Mrs Beyers, where do you live Madam? MRS BEYERS In 3-13th Avenue, Houghton. MR BIZOS And where does President Mandela live? MRS BEYERS At number 4-13th Avenue, Houghton. MR BIZOS Your house must have acquired quite a lot of value? MRS BEYERS Hopefully. MR BIZOS For how long have you been living there Mrs Beyers? MRS BEYERS 17 years. MR BIZOS Speak up towards the Committee because we must all hear, the Committee and the applicants and the counsel on the other side, so please speak up. When did Mr Mandela move over the road from you? MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS Yes. And is his house under guard? MRS BEYERS Yes, it is. MR BIZOS And on a particular day, do you recall the day that you saw something unusual on your street? MRS BEYERS Yes, it was the 12th of July 1992. MR BIZOS Now, how do you fix this date Mrs Beyers? MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS And what time did you decide to set off for the engagement party? MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS This would be in winter, was it already dark or was there light? MRS BEYERS No, it was still light. MR BIZOS And you say that you intended going to an engagement party, who were - you or ...[intervention] MRS BEYERS It was me, my husband and my daughter and her boyfriend. MR BIZOS What did you see when you emerged from your driveway? MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS What did this bakkie do when you made the U-turn? MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS Drove westwards? MRS BEYERS Yes. MR BIZOS Towards Central Avenue. MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS MRS BEYERS Two houses. MR BIZOS Two houses? MRS BEYERS Two houses from Central. MR BIZOS From the corner of Central and ...[intervention] MRS BEYERS From the corner of Central and 13th Avenue. MR BIZOS Did he drive off in a leisurely fashion? MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS When you stopped on the Central Street and...[intervention] MRS BEYERS Glenhove Road bridge. MR BIZOS Glenhove Road bridge, did you have a look at the driver? MRS BEYERS Yes, I did. MR BIZOS Did you have a good look at him? MRS BEYERS Yes, I did. MR BIZOS Is he anywhere here? MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS When did you connect what you saw on the 12th of July ...[intervention] MRS BEYERS After Mr Hani was assassinated and we saw the photographs in the newspaper, that was when we connected. MR BIZOS Did you report this to anyone? MRS BEYERS No, we just mentioned it - in passing, to the President when he came for lunch one day. MR BIZOS You say, from the party you telephoned ...[intervention] MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS That was on the 12th of July? MRS BEYERS That was on the 12th of July. MR BIZOS Is there any doubt in your mind that the driver of that White bakkie was Mr Walus? MRS BEYERS No. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Any cross-examination? CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mrs Beyers, on the 12th of July ...[intervention] MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] give the witness. MS VAN DER WALT On the 12th of July 1992, you allegedly saw Mr Walus in this bakkie, when did you then see the photograph? MRS BEYERS After Mr Hani was assassinated. MS VAN DER WALT So, that was after the 10th of April 1993? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT Now, can you give a description of the bakkie? MRS BEYERS It was a white bakkie. MS VAN DER WALT What kind? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT It seems rather strange to me that you can recall all those other details but a statement was made by Mr Bizos that it was a Hi-Lux bakkie. MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS ...[inaudible] INTERPRETER Microphone? MS VAN DER WALT Mrs Beyers, you say that your husband made a wrong turn as he exited your gates? MRS BEYERS ...[inaudible] MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS ...[inaudible] MS VAN DER WALT Where exactly was the bakkie parked? MRS BEYERS ...[inaudible] MS VAN DER WALT Is it immediately in front of your house? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT When you left your property, did you immediately see the bakkie? MRS BEYERS No. MS VAN DER WALT Why not? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT Did your husband immediately pursue the bakkie? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT And you just followed, according to your evidence? MRS BEYERS Yes. MS VAN DER WALT In a normal manner? MRS BEYERS Yes. MS VAN DER WALT Can you give a description of the bullet holes that you saw, where exactly were these holes? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT Yes, but where exactly and how many bullet holes and were they all together or were they spread out - you observed these things? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS Yes, I did. MS VAN DER WALT How do you know that these were bullet holes? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS No, we were - the robot was red, we were parked side by side. MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS Correct. MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT Surely it was a very important matter that was being investigated, it received wide media coverage, a lot was written about a so-called greater or bigger conspiracy and to this day you never went to the police to tell them this - according to you, important information, is that correct? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT Because if it was so important and it was a bakkie with bullet holes in the door and you saw this man who had killed Mr Hani, then surely you could have prevented further problems by going to the police because you were acting as somebody who was protecting the State President? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT Then, why did you come forward now? MRS BEYERS The President spoke to Mr Bizos and Mr Bizos asked me to come through. MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT So, Mr Mandela, the President, he would also have known from the 12th of July 1992, and the whole cabinet I think or Parliament ought to have known that the Commission was investigating a bigger conspiracy but right up until this minute, no mention is made of your evidence. MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT You said it was sometimes afterwards, after what that Mr Mandela did something? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT But Mr Mandela only contacted Mr Bizos now? MRS BEYERS MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MS VAN DER WALT What kind of clothing was Mr Walus wearing on that particular day? MRS BEYERS A camouflage top. MS VAN DER WALT And what else, was he wearing something on his head, was he trying to conceal his face? MRS BEYERS No, he was driving and as I say, he was talking on what appeared to be a two-way radio. MS VAN DER WALT Why do you say: "It appeared as if he was speaking on a two-way radio"? MRS BEYERS Well, if it was today, I would have said he was talking on a cell phone. MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS Yes, I am, he was talking with something in his hand - he was talking into something in his hand. MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS It could have been a microphone, it could have been a two-way radio. MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS I am sure that he was talking on something he was - I am sure, he was holding something in his hand - I am sure and he was talking into something he was holding in his hand. MS VAN DER WALT What was his hairstyle like at the time? MRS BEYERS It was longer than it is now. MS VAN DER WALT Just a moment Chairperson. Thank you Chair. You said that his hair was longer than it is today? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT How long, can you estimate for the Committee? MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT Thank you. MRS BEYERS MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS Yes, I have. MS VAN DER WALT Because Mr Walus wears glasses, he cannot drive without wearing his spectacles. MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS I accept that. MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS MS VAN DER WALT MRS BEYERS I saw Mr Walus on the 12th of July. MS VAN DER WALT Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions to put? MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Beyers, what time did you say you saw this bakkie opposite the road from you? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO You said in your evidence ...[inaudible] between half past 5H00 and 6H00. CHAIRPERSON No. JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon, thank you Mr Chairman. You say between 5H00 and 5H30, is that correct? MRS BEYERS ...[inaudible] MR PRINSLOO For what distance did you follow that vehicle that you saw - this bakkie? MRS BEYERS From Central Avenue to the motor-way. MR PRINSLOO How far is that? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO And if I put it to you that this year - on the 12th of July 1997, the sun set at 17H32, would it be more or less the time that the sun was setting at that stage? MRS BEYERS I have no idea, but it was light. MR PRINSLOO So, if the sun did set at approximately that time on the 12th of July 1992, then would it have been just before sunset or after sunset? MRS BEYERS It was before sunset. MR PRINSLOO If you say: "Just before sunset", can you be more specific, where was the sun at that stage? MRS BEYERS I really have no idea, I have no idea, but it was light. MR PRINSLOO Did you have your vehicle lights on at that stage? MRS BEYERS No. MR PRINSLOO You do remember that? MRS BEYERS Yes. MR PRINSLOO How come you remember such detail? MRS BEYERS CHAIRPERSON Please. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mrs Beyers, you are aware that when Mr Walus and Mr Derby-Lewis and his wife were charged with the murder of Mr Chris Hani, there was also allegations made of a list of people which included the President, Mr Mandela, are you aware of that? MRS BEYERS Yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS I spoke to his housekeeper who alerted the guards. MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon? MRS BEYERS To the housekeeper who alerted the guards. MR PRINSLOO And what was the name of the housekeeper? MRS BEYERS Mrs Chrissie Fortuin. MR PRINSLOO Did you give her a description of the person you saw? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO Did you give a description of the vehicle you saw? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO Is that all you said? MRS BEYERS Yes. MR PRINSLOO No other description other than being a white bakkie? MRS BEYERS No. MR PRINSLOO Nothing about no number plates? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO The question is Mrs Beyers: "No other detail besides the fact that it was a white bakkie"? MRS BEYERS Yes. MR PRINSLOO And you say you identified Mr Walus in a newspaper, is that correct? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO Which newspaper was that? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO You cannot recall that MRS BEYERS It could have been The Star, Citizen, I have no idea. MR PRINSLOO Did somebody point it out to you or did you see it of your accord or did you ...[intervention] MRS BEYERS I saw it of my own accord. MR PRINSLOO When was that Mrs Beyers? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO And have you still got that newspaper? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO Was it a full photo, just a face or what? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO Did you recognise it from the side or from the front or what Mrs Beyers? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO Are there any outstanding features by which you were able to identify Mr Walus when you saw him on that particular which you allege you saw him? MRS BEYERS I think Mr Walus has a distinctive face. MR PRINSLOO Distinctive in what sense Mrs Beyers? MRS BEYERS ...[indistinct] MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS I am looking at him, yes. MR PRINSLOO Yes, tell the Committee please. MRS BEYERS Possibly his profile which is what I saw his face on - profile. MR PRINSLOO What you saw on the 12th of July 1992 and then you were able - in a newspaper after the 10th of April 1993, to identify the same person? MRS BEYERS Yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS Six weeks, eight weeks, five weeks - a couple of months. MR PRINSLOO And what did you say to Mr Mandela? MRS BEYERS It was in passing that ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO No, but what did you say to him? MRS BEYERS That there was a bakkie that was parked on his - our pavement, watching his house on the 12th of July. MR PRINSLOO Is that all you said to him? MRS BEYERS No, probably a lot more but that was the basis of the thing and that we - it was with Mr Walus. MR PRINSLOO Pardon? MRS BEYERS That it was Mr Walus. MR PRINSLOO Mr Walus? MRS BEYERS In the bakkie, yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO Is that all? MRS BEYERS Yes. MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS No. MR PRINSLOO Nothing of the sort? MRS BEYERS No. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mrs Beyers, you are aware that the trial of these three accused - at the time, took in October 1993? MRS BEYERS Yes, I am. MR PRINSLOO Was it prior or subsequent to the trial that you told the President, Mr Mandela - with regard to this incident? MRS BEYERS It must have been before. MR PRINSLOO Beforehand? MRS BEYERS MR PRINSLOO You appear to be unsure of yourself Mrs Beyers? MRS BEYERS It was before the trial. MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon? MRS BEYERS It was before the trial. MR PRINSLOO But why were you hesitant about this now? MRS BEYERS Because I had to think. MR PRINSLOO Was there anything that caused you not to be sure? JUDGE WILSON Well, is there anything that causes you to be sure it was before the trial? ...[Tape blank] MRS BEYERS ...[inaudible] after the trial obviously we read a lot - I read a lot more about Mr Hani and Mr Derby-Lewis. MR PRINSLOO ...[inaudible] - I beg your pardon, subsequent to the trial Mrs Beyers that you read a lot about them or before? MRS BEYERS I read about both of them before the trial and then after the trial but it certainly was before the trial that I spoke to the President. MR PRINSLOO MRS BEYERS ...[inaudible] MR PRINSLOO Just a moment please Mr Chairman, just one second please. Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? ADV MPSHE ...[inaudible] NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS JUDGE NGOEPE If I may ask, I assume your husband was driving? MRS BEYERS JUDGE NGOEPE And I would assume that you were sitting next to him, at the time when the traffic light was red and both vehicles were stationery, were you behind the bakkie? MRS BEYERS No, we were next to the bakkie. JUDGE NGOEPE Which side? MRS BEYERS We were going onto the motor-way and the bakkie was in the middle lane, so were turning right onto the motor-way and the bakkie was going up towards Glenhove. JUDGE NGOEPE MRS BEYERS On my left. JUDGE NGOEPE I see. And how close were you to - was there another lane - empty lane in-between the two vehicles? MRS BEYERS Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE Was there another vehicle in-between the two vehicles? MRS BEYERS No. JUDGE NGOEPE Thank you . JUDGE WILSON MRS BEYERS Yes, when I say there was an empty lane - there was nothing in-between, we were going right onto the motor-way and he was in the ...[inaudible] JUDGE WILSON Was he in the lane next to you? MRS BEYERS CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR BIZOS No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thanks very much. MR BIZOS May the ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, we have another witness ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Please! Yes, Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Can we not proceed with any of your other witnesses? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON No, what am I to call her for? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Well, Mrs du Randt - will she come forward, is she here? CHAIRPERSON Are you prepared to take the oath? MRS DU RANDT Yes. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MRS DU RANDT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS Mrs du Randt, you have given evidence before the Judge President in the case in which Mr Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus and Mrs Derby-Lewis were the accused, can you remember this? MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS Will you please speak a bit more loudly, the members of the Committee, the applicants and their counsellors - legal counsel, would like to hear what you are saying. You and your husband, did you deliver a pistol at the home of Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis? MRS DU RANDT Yes, that is correct. MR BIZOS MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS What did you and your husband deliver there on the 25th of February? MRS DU RANDT It was a parcel - an OK parcel, in which I had a jersey with some mail and I gave it to Mr Clive Derby-Lewis personally in his hands. MR BIZOS What was in the jersey? MRS DU RANDT Well, after I had peeped in there, I saw that is was a gun or a pistol or whatever they call it. MR BIZOS Will you please describe the pistol? MRS DU RANDT What I had seen in the box at the police, there was something that was in the front of the drawer and I saw that it was a gun or a revolver or whatever they call it. MR BIZOS Now, what did the jersey have to do with the firearm which you saw or that you handed over on the 25th of February? MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS Why was the jersey there? MRS DU RANDT Well, it was the afternoon when my husband went through to the City Council meeting when a certain Mr Venter came to my house, he asked me whether Mr Durandt was there and I told him: "No, he had been in a meeting for two hours". MR BIZOS Was there any reason why the firearm was in the jersey? MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS Sorry, have you finished? MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS Was there any reason given to you why the firearm was not delivered directly to Mr Derby-Lewis and why it was taken to your husband? MRS DU RANDT Well, as I said to you, I knew that Clive and Gay were also in the City Council meeting and I phoned there twice but there was no reply, the phone just rang. MR BIZOS Was any reason given to you why the firearm was not delivered directly to Mr Derby-Lewis? MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS When did you discover that it was a firearm that had been handed over to you? MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS Did you ask your husband why the firearm had been brought to you? MRS DU RANDT No. MR BIZOS Did your husband say anything concerning the firearm? MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS At that stage you did know that it was not just a matter of a jersey but that the more important thing that had to be handed over was the firearm and not the jersey? MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS Did your husband have any knowledge that the firearm would be delivered at your place? MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS MRS DU RANDT Well, it looked like a box like this and I put it on the table. MR BIZOS And why are you sure that it was the 25th of February? MRS DU RANDT MR BIZOS So, we can accept that you are entirely certain that this took place on the 25th of February? MRS DU RANDT Yes, because normally on Thursdays we go through to her because this is the first time that my daughter had moved away from us. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs du Randt, when did you make a statement to the police with regard to this matter? MRS DU RANDT I was on the day of the 21st of April, I went to my attorney after I had heard that the police were looking for me. MR PRINSLOO And did the police speak to you before you went to your attorney? MRS DU RANDT I went to Advocate Jeug Prinsloo very early that morning and he phoned around and he spoke to a Colonel van MR PRINSLOO Did the police arrest you or keep you with regard to this matter? MRS DU RANDT They told Mr Wessel Cronje to keep me there and that they would come through to Benoni to come and pick me up because they told me that they would keep my husband locked up there until I came and made a statement. MR PRINSLOO Was your husband under arrest at that stage? MRS DU RANDT Yes. MR PRINSLOO Did your husband say anything to you with regard to what other people had said or so and so? MRS DU RANDT No, nothing at all. MR PRINSLOO MRS DU RANDT MR PRINSLOO Is it possible that you are mistaken, that it could have been in March? MRS DU RANDT No, I could have perhaps been in error. MR PRINSLOO MRS DU RANDT MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. Madam, did your husband hand the firearm to Mr Derby-Lewis? MRS DU RANDT No, we drove up - the gates were always closed, so he opened the gate and we drove into the driveway, he got out, knocked on the door and then Clive came out. I opened my door and I gave the parcel to him because there was also mail in this because my husband is the only person who has to post box key and normally Clive or Gay come and collect the mail or we go and deliver it to them. MR PRINSLOO MRS DU RANDT MR PRINSLOO MRS DU RANDT MR PRINSLOO Thank you Your Honour, I just wish to make copies of this document as they made copies of the wrong one but I can show you the original and then I will have copies made. Unfortunately, I had the 1992 programme copied but I think this is the copy that Ms Khampepe asked for earlier as was raised during testimony. It will be Exhibit A(g) - I undertake to have copies made during the adjournment and make these available to you. CHAIRPERSON Are there any further questions for this witness? MR PRINSLOO No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you would like to put to this witness? ADV MPSHE No, questions Mr Chairman, thank you. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS Madam, when is the birthday of your daughter? MRS DU RANDT The 29th of February - that would have been the Sunday. MR BIZOS MRS DU RANDT Well, I know that on the 25th we went through to her. JUDGE WILSON You say that you know that on the 25th you went through to her? MRS DU RANDT Yes. MR BIZOS You stated the date of the 25th of February in the High Court in Johannesburg. MRS DU RANDT Yes. MR BIZOS And after you had testified to that effect - and this appears on page 305, that neither Mr Jordaan nor Mr de Vos nor Mrs van der Walt posed any questions to you during that hearing? MRS DU RANDT That is correct. MR BIZOS We have no further questions of the witness Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Walt, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness? MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Then, let us proceed. COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO "At this point it seems as if Walus has a better chance of getting amnesty, than Derby-Lewis, even Walus pulled the trigger. He has a good chance of convincing the Amnesty Committee that he thought he was acting within the mandate of the Conservative Party because he thought ...[indistinct] with Derby-Lewis, represented the Party. MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, it seems that the Committee members are quite content to deal with this matter without the transcript. MR BIZOS Yes, I may place on record that I informed Mr du Preez not to give free advice, lest he runs foul of the Bar Counsel or the Attorneys Association. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, we are going to call Mr Jeremy Cronin who has submitted a statement - which is R5, we do not intend that you should read the whole of it but merely to highlight certain matters and deal with some of the matters that have been dealt with by other witnesses. We call Mr Jeremy Cronin. CHAIRPERSON Mr Cronin, are you prepared to take the oath? MR CRONIN: I prefer to affirm. CHAIRPERSON You refer to affirm? JEREMY CRONIN (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS Mr Cronin, you are the Deputy General Secretary of the South African Communist Party? MR CRONIN MR BIZOS For how long have you held that position? MR CRONIN Since April 1993. MR BIZOS Shortly after the death of Mr Chris Hani? MR CRONIN MR BIZOS You signed a statement on the 7th of August 1997, which together with annexures runs to 12 pages and which is part of the record before the Committee, marked R5? MR CRONIN MR BIZOS Please tell the Chairman and the members of the Committee, Mr Cronin, when did you first meet Mr Chris Hani? MR CRONIN Well, I briefly met Mr Chris Hani in exile in Lusaka in late 1988 but became more closely associated with him after he became the full time General Secretary of the Communist Party. MR BIZOS When did he become the General Secretary of the Communist Party? MR CRONIN MR BIZOS What was your position in the Communist Party at that time? MR CRONIN At that time I was with the Central Committee and the Political Bureau of the South African Communist Party and those were the senior leadership collectives of the Communist Party. MR BIZOS Did you work in close association with the late Mr Hani? MR CRONIN MR BIZOS You prepared the statement and you signed it, do you affirm the correctness of the contents of this document? MR CRONIN Yes, I do. MR BIZOS MR CRONIN Perhaps, Mr Bizos, the best way or doing that would be to quote directly the words of Mr Hani on this matter and I would refer the Committee to page two of R5, towards the middle of that page. This would be one of countless examples giving us some sense of what Chris Hani and indeed the Communist Party thought about East European Communism at this period. "This particular set of quotations comes from a radio show and I remember being with Chris Hani on this particular show, it was a phone in show and members of the public were free to phone in and ask either Chris or myself what our views were on a number of matters. And then he goes on, he says - he admits that: "It is true that in the past we aligned ourselves with international communism because international communism then, was the only force which came to the assistance of the oppressed people in the world. And he means socialism is not going to be prescribed to the people of South Africa. And I think he goes on and on in this vein and the interview continues in the same gist. CHAIRPERSON What is the date of that? MR CRONIN It was March 1992. MR BIZOS 5th of March 1992. This was on a popular radio programme, was this a theme which Mr Hani addressed regularly? MR CRONIN And he goes on in that vein, saying that: "Far from being impatient, I think it is very important for us to account for our communism, to be self-critical about our past associations and to reassure the public" And in this case the callers were White voices, judging from their accents. MR BIZOS MR CRONIN Well, I think that the first point to be made in that regard is that Chris Hani had certainly served actively and auspiciously in the ranks of Umkhonto weSizwe, he was very proud of his track record and many people in South Africa admired him for his military record in the ranks of Umkhonto weSizwe and as a consequence of that he rose to the rank of Chief of Staff. He was the number effectively, not the number - well, number three because the President of ANC was head of MK. So, he was not actually number one in MK but he was certainly a very senior member of Umkhonto weSizwe, the armed wing of the ANC. But he was also a very loyal member of Umkhonto weSizwe and with the opening up of the negotiations process - with the unbanning of the ANC and the South African Communist Party, the armed struggle - there was a cease-fire almost immediately. And then in August of 1990 with the signing of the Pretoria Minute, the ANC formally suspended the armed struggle and Chris Hani was part and parcel of that process. After August 1990, he remained on - within the command structures of MK, as the Chief of Staff and his role was to assist with the integration process or the impending integration process to regularise the situation in South Africa, so his role - far from launching some separate army in exile, was to see the well-being of the returning MK cadres who were returning from exile or who were emerging from prison or exile - or from underground, and to ensure that they were readied for an integration process which we knew would come as a result of the negotiations process. In December 1991 - as I mentioned earlier, he was elected as General Secretary of the Communist Party and this then becomes his full-time deployment within the broader ANC alliance and so from that point he ceased to be the Chief of Staff of MK. And I think again this gives an indication that his priorities at this point were not military or be it even military on route to demobilisation or reintegration into a regularised Government force. MR BIZOS Did everyone in the liberation movements embrace the idea of a negotiated settlement or were there groups that were sceptical about it Mr Cronin? MR CRONIN No, I think it would be fair to say that the broader constituency on the ground of the ANC and of the South African Communist Party - certainly large sections of them, were often extremely sceptical about the negotiations process. I think that the scepticism had a great deal to do with the low-intensity conflict that was going on with townships in particular - many townships. I remember personally addressing meetings - SACP branch meetings of COSATU shop steward locals. I was one of the people involved in the negotiations process and I remember having to answer repeatedly, questions from this base constituency. People would say: "You are having tea and biscuits with FW de Klerk, we are dying like flies in the townships, how can you suspend the armed struggle, how can you negotiate with the enemy" and so a great deal of our time was spent on persuading our constituency of the importance of the negotiations process. MR BIZOS Do you know how much of his time Mr Chris Hani spent in trying to persuade the constituencies to support the negotiation process? MR CRONIN MR BIZOS What was his attitude to the peace process that was being organised at the time throughout the country - ...[indistinct] to the National Peace Accord? MR CRONIN "The limited success" as he goes on: We must relate energetically to Nkatha members on the ground, we must spearhead the peace process and we must ensure that no momentum is lost" MR BIZOS And in relation to the low-intensity conflict that was going on, did he have any views in relation to the self-defence units that were being formed? MR CRONIN Yes, that was a vexed issue, it was a complicated issue. The ANC led alliance had suspended the armed struggle, we were not waging an armed struggle. And in the face of that violence that was being visited in that period on largely the Black community, there was a major demand from our constituency that people should be able to defend themselves and this was one of their arguments for unsuspending the armed struggle, they felt that it had been - many people felt it was wrong to have suspended the armed struggle. And our answer to this was that we were serious about suspending the armed struggle, it remained suspended, there was no Umkhonto weSizwe functioning as an army waging an armed struggle. But clearly individuals, families, communities, congregations, had the right to self-defence and we felt as an ANC alliance, that we also had to assume some responsibility for assisting people to defend themselves. The problem was of course, that when you help people to defend themselves there are dangers and that this can sometimes contribute to escalating the violence rather than to solving it and Chris Hani was well aware of this difficulty and again he was the leader most frequently deployed by the ANC alliance to try to instil discipline, to try to get across the political agenda that we had two self-defence units - some of which sometimes went off the rails. CHAIRPERSON Page seven? MR CRONIN "Does our Peace Campaign mean that we need to renounce the need to defence" Somewhere in the middle he says" meaning the police and defence force of the time. presumably to political structures. he says: MR BIZOS Were the views of Mr Chris Hani covered throughout South African media, both print and electronic? MR CRONIN Well, absolutely, I mean he was one of the most high profile political leaders of the time, he was continuously talking and I think there was hardly a day that went by in this period - this three year period prior to his death, in which he was not addressing some public gathering, some public meeting of one kind or another. MR BIZOS Did he give talks to various interest groups in the country, not only to - did he confine himself to dwellers in the townships or in the country districts or was he invited to universities and business organisations? MR CRONIN We quote in this particular document form speeches that he gave to the Black business community and he also appeared regularly on radio news programmes and television programmes watched presumably, by the ...[indistinct] audience. MR BIZOS Were those sufficiently widely published for at least those having a genuine interest in the political constitutional problems of the country, to be aware of them? MR CRONIN Well, I can imagine that there would be people in our country whose minds were so incredibly narrow that their reading might not have gone beyond The Patriot, but I think that anyone vaguely interested in what was happening in South Africa would have engaged in reading a range of newspapers, watching news, listening to radio programmes. This was a time of heightened political activity in South Africa and anyone with a remote interest in politics would have been overwhelmed in any case by the amount of information that was flowing through the mass media. MR BIZOS MR CRONIN MR BIZOS We have been told that next to Mr Mandela, he was probably the most popular person in the country, would you agree with that? MR CRONIN Well, some of the poles certainly suggested that - opinion poles suggested that Chris Hani was - after Nelson Mandela, the second most popular political figure in our country - obviously with his support drawn overwhelmingly from he Black community, one can debate the accuracy of poles but I think no-one can debate the huge popularity that he enjoyed. MR BIZOS We have also been told that he was assassinated in order to bring about chaos in the country -he was assassinated, do you know any steps that may have been taken to avoid the intended chaos from coming into being? MR CRONIN MR BIZOS Just before you quote it, is this a letter which was received from a member of your Party who resigned because of your efforts to avoid the chaos? MR CRONIN And then towards - about the seventh last line: We actually published this letter later in the year - in our official Party organ, the African Communist. We felt we should be should do so because it reflected - at the time we felt we should do so, open up this debate because it reflected a powerful feeling that existed within the ranks of active Party members and we believe also active ANC members as well. We disagreed with the sentiment and the individual left the Party as a result but it was a barometer of popular feeling and I think, gives an indication of how much the work of the leadership of the alliance was cut out in this period - in the days and weeks that followed the assassination, to get control of the situation to ensure that our mass base did not give in to the provocation and that this assassination was intended to be and was in fact but it was a difficult battle. MR BIZOS Was Mr Mandela and Mr ...[indistinct] Sekwale given access to the electronic media to constantly call for calm and not to succumb to the provocation as a result of the murder of Mr Hani? MR CRONIN MR BIZOS MR CRONIN There was - I remember, a PAC speaker agreeing with the mass sentiments at the time and it was my job as part of the collective of the ANC/SACP leadership, to tell people not to fall into this provocation, to focus attention on the demand for one person one vote elections and to say that this needed to be the battlefield on which we fought this matter out. It was on the battlefield of elections of democracy and that we must not fall into the trap of those who were seeking to prevent and to delay that. MR BIZOS NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo? CROSS EXAMINATION MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO And so, would it also be true - on the other side, people supporting the right-wing or Nationalist Party people were also sceptical with regard to a negotiated settlement in the country? MR CRONIN Yes, I accept that. MR PRINSLOO Now, Mr Hani - as you told the Committee, was a very popular person and the most likely person to succeed President Nelson Mandela, would it be fair comment? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO In the minds of the people on the ground - the public at large, they perceived that Mr Hani would indeed be the successor to Mr Mandela, would that be unfair? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO And yesterday, as to what he told the Committee as to how the viewed Mr Hani? MR CRONIN Yes, I did hear. MR PRINSLOO And the views, that was not disputed - as to how those people viewed Mr Hani, do you agree to that? MR CRONIN I can accept that those may be the perceptions of Doctor Ferdie Hartzenberg. MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO And would it be fair to say Mr Cronin, that the people accused of that would be people that supported the Nationalist Party at the time - the Government, the police force etc., that supported the Nationalist Party? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Mr Hani was viewed and regarded by many people from that side, as an enemy? MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Up till when was Mr Hani still the leader of Umkhonto weSizwe? MR CRONIN He was not the leader of Umkhonto weSizwe, I think he would have ranked as number three within Umkhonto weSizwe and that was up until December 1991. MR PRINSLOO 1991? MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO December 1991? MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO When was it publicised that Mr Hani was no longer involved in Umkhonto weSizwe? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Now, Mr Hani had support on the ground from the young people and radical people, would that be a correct assumption? MR CRONIN He had very wide-ranging support, from old people, from young people, from White people - although not so many, and from Black people, from rural people and urban people - he had a very, very wide-ranging support. MR PRINSLOO But in the majority Mr Cronin, who supported Mr Hani? MR PRINSLOO Well, I think the poles suggested that he was very widely supported by Black people in our country, working people, rural people, poor people. MR PRINSLOO Would that - when you say Black people, was that young people or elderly people or what? MR CRONIN As far as I know - although the life expectancy of Black people in country is much lower than White people, it would also have included ageing Black people. MR PRINSLOO And the assumption that radical people supported Mr Hani by and large? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO As I understood your evidence Mr Cronin, it was that Mr Hani attempted to persuade the people to rather follow a negotiated settlement as opposed to a revolutionary one or otherwise. MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN They were sceptical about a negotiated settlement and for good reason, they were suffering - they were getting killed in violence, in low intensity conflict, so they were sceptical about the path but they trusted Chris Hani and turned to him and looked to him for guidance and leadership. MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO To what media are you referring to? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Can you refer to any particular newspaper coverage with regard to this - The Citizen for instance, that carried such a coverage? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO And what they perceived. MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Just a moment please Mr Chairman. Mr Bizos, - beg your pardon, Mr Cronin - I beg your pardon Mr Bizos ...[intervention] MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO R5 at page 42 in the John Robby show ...[intervention] MR CRONIN Sorry, I missed the reference. MR PRINSLOO Page 42. MR CRONIN 42 of? MR PRINSLOO R5, the last paragraph and the third line from the bottom MR CRONIN He was an MK member and he was certainly an ANC member as are most SACP members, but he no longer was a ranking member of Umkhonto weSizwe. MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN No, he resigned from his leadership position. MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN No, he was not. Well, he contender to be an MK member but his activism was not particularly in this area after December 1991. MR PRINSLOO So Mr Cronin, it would be unfair for you to say that the other people viewed it differently - if that was the case, they perceived he was still involved with MK? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Mr Cronin, what you told the Commission in your evidence - there was a low-intensity warfare going on and what you said is "Negotiations were taking place over the table and underneath they were kicking you" MR CRONIN Absolutely correct. MR PRINSLOO Yes. And the people you referred to were in fact the Nationalist Party at the time? MR CRONIN Yes, but in particular the intelligence and security structures of the apartheid State. MR PRINSLOO So at that stage the Nationalist Party was governing the country and this was their organs that had to keep them in Government? MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO Yes. Now, at that stage there was a lot of violence taking place - as you set out, violence perpetrated by various people on the trains, hostels, etc.? MR CRONIN Yes, I agree. MR PRINSLOO Yes. So, in the minds of the people at large, there was not peace at that stage? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO So, it was indeed - if I may put it that way, as far as you perceived it then, it was false negotiated settlement at that stage - that it was perceived in the minds of the Nationalist Party? MR CRONIN No, they were serious about negotiating but they wanted to get the best deal possible across the table and felt that the best way of doing this was to weaken their principal negotiating partner, which was clearly the ANC. MR PRINSLOO According to your version Mr Cronin, Mr Hani was aware that the Nationalist Party was speaking to them over the table and yet kicking them under the table by killing people and derailing the process that way, is that correct? MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO So, at that stage you knew that the Government was not sincere in a settlement? MR CRONIN No, we believed that they were sincerely committed to a settlement but they wanted a settlement on their terms as much as possible and the only way in which they could bring about such a settlement was to try and weaken the ANC. The principal strength of the ANC was not State power - we were not in Government, our principal strength was our mass support and therefore this low-intensity conflict was principally directed at cutting the links between negotiators and the mass constituency of the ANC and the means of doing that was one, to sow confusion and terror in Black townships through random violence, to assassinate key leaders at the community level and also to assassinate key links between the negotiation process and that mass constituency and I would regard Chris Hani as one of those key links. MR PRINSLOO Mr Cronin, this particular view that prevailed at that stage - as you summed it up on page five is "To assassinate key ANC and alliance, second and third layer leaders"? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO If Mr Hani perceived that, that same perception could have prevailed among the people at large, would that be correct to say that? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Mr Cronin, you believed and so did Mr Hani believe - at that stage, that they intended assassinating key leaders and members of the ANC? MR CRONIN He was deeply concerned about that and had escaped - narrowly escaped an assassination attempt the year before on his own life. MR PRINSLOO And for you to say that, you must have had good reason to believe that? MR CRONIN Sorry? MR PRINSLOO There must have been reason for you to believe this in order for you to say this? MR CRONIN Well, we knew ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO ...[indistinct] key leaders? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO But at the time of the negotiations that was prevailing Mr Cronin? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Now Mr Cronin, if the Nationalist Party - their supporters, believed in that, why do you disbelieve the applicants? If they believe that by taking out a key leader, it will also bring about what the Nationalist Party believed? MR CRONIN I accept that they believed that they would - as they have told us, that they would unleash chaos in South Africa by assassinating Chris Hani - I completely believe that and they came damn close to achieving that objective, so I have no reason to doubt that. MR PRINSLOO So, the climate that prevailed at the time Mr Cronin, was created not only by the Conservative Party - what they believed, but also by the Government itself at the time? MR CRONIN Yes, I think - I would imagine - and we need to find our more and I think we are finding out more day by day through the TRC process, but I believe that there were possibly two schools of thought, there were those - and I would imagine that the two applicants and the third person whom I believe was involved in this conspiracy, were of the view that they should try to stop at all costs the negotiated settlement - they should try to shipwreck it. I think others were deploying violence into the situation - not in order to stop the negotiations process, but to transform the quality of it and therefore to achieve a settlement but more on their terms, so I think there would have been two schools of thought operating amongst those on the right who were involved in violence. And I would think that the applicants would have belonged to the school of thought that believed that through using violence, they could actually shipwreck the negotiations process and prevent the evil day of non-racial democracy ever dawning on South Africa. MR PRINSLOO So those were very turbulent times that prevailed at that stage Mr Cronin? MR CRONIN Absolutely, yes. MR PRINSLOO And for that reason, if members of the - or let me put it this way, if agents of the then Government - the Nationalist Party, had assassinated Mr Hani, would it have achieved the same purpose or what purpose would they have achieved seeing - in view of the fact that you are saying: "To assassinate key ANC alliance and second and third layer leaders" - if they had succeeded in doing that? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Mr Cronin, you will bear in mind that that was evidence given by Mr Walus and not Mr Derby-Lewis. MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Well, likewise, at that stage the ANC was not governing the country, the Nationalist Party was governing the country. MR CRONIN Correct. MR PRINSLOO And if the Nationalists had that view in mind - as what you set out in this paragraph on page 5, then surely the result would have been the same - it would have served the same cause and same purpose for the Nationalists as well as the Conservative Party? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO So, Mr Cronin, will you concede to what the Nationalist Party had in mind at that stage - to assassinate key ANC alliance and second and third layer leaders, would have been a political motive to do that? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Just a moment please Mr Chairman. If you look at page 43 of R5 Mr Cronin - the second paragraph: Have you got that? MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO "Ultimately the objectives of the ANC and the Communist Party, are to disband Umkhonto weSizwe and I want to proceed by saying that it is a question of time - we must a reach a period in our negotiations where we are satisfied that there will never be a reversal, there will be no going back" What do you say to that Mr Cronin? MR CRONIN "We dearly wanted to succeed" Chris Hani is saying that quite explicitly: MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN Yes, let me read it to you, it says "Ultimately" ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO Here, right ...[intervention] MR CRONIN he says: "The objective of the ANC and the Communist Party are to disband Umkhonto weSizwe" In other words: MR PRINSLOO So at that stage Mr Cronin, the armed struggle in 1992 was not disbanded - according to what is stated here and nor suspended? MR CRONIN "We retain an Umkhonto weSizwe" That exists yes, at this point in time. MR PRINSLOO But how was the public to interpret what was stated here by Mr Hani and Mr Robby at the time Mr Cronin? MR CRONIN Well, I think that ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO What did the Communist Party in South Africa have in mind at that stage as to policy? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Before reading this to you, Mr Hani was a dedicated communist, is that correct? MR CRONIN Absolutely. MR PRINSLOO He was totally opposed to any other form of Government? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Now Mr Cronin, I refer you to page 44. At the bottom of the page Mr Chairman: "John Robby - Again in the interest of saying a civil war" ...[intervention] MR CRONIN Saving. MR PRINSLOO "We had - Doctor Korne Mulder on Friday, sounded like a very nice reasonable educated Afrikaner man talking about Afrikaner nationalism, talking about this deep-seated desire to have their own country and yet every time we speak to someone from the ANC and we mention the possibility of a Boerestaat - immediately no, is that something that you would be prepared to negotiate at any circumstances Chris? The reply: "Well, I think we should discuss it but it is something that I would never support, I think that those who are hankering after a Boerestaat should come to CODESA and place that issue before the players at CODESA. Let me discuss the merits of it but let me elaborate what would be the cost of a Boerestaat in this country, where would it be situated, where in the country did you get an Afrikaner majority? The implications of a Boerestaat would mean the removal of people in their millions" MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN What about the Vula incident, you ...[intervention] MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO But why was it an underground structure Mr Cronin? MR CRONIN The ANC as you will remember, was banned in 1960 - it had two choices, it either could disappear or it had to operate illegally and that meant operating in the underground, so Vula was one of many endeavours to set up underground - in this case, political structures - there were underground military structures, Vula was essentially a political structure. MR PRINSLOO What happened to Vula after 1990 when the ANC and the SACP was disbanned? MR CRONIN There were also lunatics roaming in South Africa, who were aiming to take pot-shots at leaders - as happened in April 1993 in the case of Chris Hani, so we were quite cautious about revealing exactly - precisely in 1990, who was our leadership. As we became more assured that it was till dangerous to operate but the chances of an effect negotiated settlement were on - so those disappeared, so by 1991/1992 and certainly by April 1993, there were no longer any underground structures. MR PRINSLOO Mr Cronin, at the time of the arrest of certain of the Vula members, were they still underground at that stage? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Why were they uncertain Mr Cronin? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN Because we were banned as - long before the Communist Party had got involved in an armed struggle, we were banned. We were banned in 1950, so being banned and therefore having to operate underground, had nothing to do with violence, it had everything to do with the distaste that the apartheid regime had for the kind of politics that we had. MR PRINSLOO Mr Cronin, my questions is actually directed at the time after the ANC was unbanned in 1990. MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO Operating openly? MR CRONIN Yes, as I say, it was a process. MR PRINSLOO Yes, but why was the necessity then - if they were operating openly in the country, to operate underground - on the other hand? MR CRONIN Because - one, we were trying to move into an above ground situation, we had to seek amnesties, we had to get - there was an attempt to exclude some of us from the - we were coming back into the country - those who were in exile, in order to engage in the negotiations process. There was continuous persecution of leaders and the Vula - the anti-Vula measures, the forcing of Ronnie Casserells and others again into the - Ronnie Casserells was above ground, he was operating in the negotiations process and he was then pursued by the apartheid police because of the Vula connection and so he was forced back into the underground. In parts of our country - like Bisho, Ciskei, Bophutatswana, it was still not possible to operate above ground. MR PRINSLOO With regard to the self-defence units Mr Cronin, would it be fair to say that the self-defence units at that stage were totally undisciplined? MR CRONIN So, they played a role but there were certainly cases, serious cases of deviation and of some self-defence units getting out of control and Chris Hani was the first to say so and was certainly the one that got deployed frequently into those situations to instil discipline, to expel people who were simply criminals posing to be self-defence members and so forth. MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN There were occasions in which self-defence units were so described by the press, yes. MR PRINSLOO So, if that was perceived by the public like that, it would have been not - on their part, as far as the media is concerned, a correct reflection? MR CRONIN Who is this public? MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon? MR CRONIN You keep talking about: "The public", are you talking about White conservative opinion? MR CRONIN Yes. MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO And members of the Black community, were they satisfied with self-defence units or were they afraid of them? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO And the self-defence units, were they introduced by the ANC? MR CRONIN They were - the alliance - so it was not just the ANC, the South African Communist Party also accepted full responsibility and involvement in helping communities to set up self-defence units. Our approach was that they must not be partisan structures, they were there to defend the community, they were not there to attack alternative political formations - people with different political views, they were there to defend communities in the face of attack. But we felt - being an alliance, that we believed - and as the elections were to prove later, being a movement that represented an overwhelming majority of Black people, that we had a responsibility to facilitate the development of those self-defence units and also in the framework of the National Peace Accord, to legitimate that formation. So within the National Peace Accord - if you take the trouble to read it, you will see that there was an agreement that communities should have the right to - there was an understanding within the National Peace Agreement agreed upon by a range of Political Parties - I forget if the Conservative Party was there or not, that the right to self-defence was part and parcel of bringing peace to South Africa. So it was within that National Peace Accord framework, that we - as the South African Communist Party and the ANC, helped to facilitate self-defence units. MR PRINSLOO Mr Cronin, what you told the Committee - that Mr Hani said - in order to defend the low-intensity warfare which prevailed at the time, would rather engage in negotiations as opposed to reacting by violence, is that correct? Will that be correct - as what you said? MR CRONIN Yes, he said it would be wrong to go - what he was saying was that it would be wrong to go over into offensive violence, to deploy violence for strategic purposes - that we did in 1961 without - openly, with no fudging and confusion as to whether there was a subjective view or whether there were three different views as to whether we were involved in armed violence or not. MR PRINSLOO In as far as the targets were concerned - what the people believed, the perception of the public, the White public of South Africa, that the targets at the time was indiscriminate - whether it was soft targets or hard targets. MR CRONIN The targets of whom? MR PRINSLOO Of the ANC, they targeted soft as well as hard targets. MR CRONIN MR CRONIN Yes. MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO The public in South Africa - the White public. MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO And a lot of the Black public as well. I can give you an examples where people were killed in land mines, for instance an incident near Davel in the Eastern Transvaal. MR CRONIN Yes, okay. MR PRINSLOO There was a land mine placed and there were people killed - Black people, only Black people. MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO They were travelling in a car. MR CRONIN In the course of the armed struggle which as I say lasted from 1961 to 1990, the ANC moved through a variety of strategies - it was the ANC with Umkhonto weSizwe operating under the political guidance of the ANC. MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN In the course of prosecuting that armed struggle people lost their lives, it was not only our own people that lost their lives but other people lost their lives as well and we regret that - I would certainly have no difficulty in reasserting that, one deeply regrets the loss of life. MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO So, the soldiers would have operated under his command at that stage? MR CRONIN Yes. MR PRINSLOO So, he would have been responsible for the actions of his soldiers in his command? MR CRONIN Yes, yes and unlike certain other political leaders he would assume full responsibility, he would have had no - he did not delight in warfare, he did not delight in violence but as a leader he assumed full political responsibility for actions carried out under his command and would done his best to ensure that they had a political objective at all times. MR PRINSLOO Mr Cronin, in order for you to say that Mr Hani accepted full responsibility, is that what he told you? MR CRONIN Did he tell me? MR PRINSLOO Yes. MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MR PRINSLOO Can we just have a brief adjournment then Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. MR PRINSLOO Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR CRONIN (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Cronin, people involved in Vula - there were certain members of Vula arrested by the police, is that correct?- like Sepiwe Njanda, Mr Mac Maharaj and there were other members arrested as well, is that correct? MR CRONIN Some were arrested yes, and some died in that detention process. MR PRINSLOO I beg your pardon, some did what? MR CRONIN Some actually died while in detention as has been revealed recently in the TRC process. MR PRINSLOO And is it correct that the police unravelled the secret code they used and brought to the fore as to what they were supposed to do and the police alleged they wanted to cause insurrection in the country, is that correct? MR CRONIN I was not directly involved in Vula but I certainly remember press reports at the time. MR PRINSLOO Those were the allegation, is that correct Mr Cronin? MR CRONIN There were certainly allegations to that effect in - I think, 1991, yes. MR PRINSLOO So, in the minds of the public, it was - as far as they were concerned, these people were not sincere in negotiations as they were planning insurrection? MR CRONIN In the minds of which public Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO And this arrest of ...[intervention] MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO Mr Cronin, the public that reads the media. MR CRONIN Well, I would say that many members of the public who read the media, would have dismissed this as disinformation as they were asked to by the leadership of the ANC and SACP - who immediately reacted to these so-called police revelations by saying that: "Here again we have an example of disinformation" that: "Yes, there was and underground structure, yes it was called Vula" but that it was involved in planning insurrection was completely wrong. That information was available to the public as well and I would say that a large number of the public - certainly those who would follow the leadership of ANC ...[indistinct], would have given credence to that interpretation and that others would have given different interpretations is of course eminently possible. MR PRINSLOO Mr Cronin, the arrest of these people took place in July 1990, is that correct? MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO MR CRONIN MR PRINSLOO So that was well after the unbanning of the ANC? MR CRONIN Well after the unbanning of the ANC, the police arrested elements of Vula including some people who were functioning openly in the negotiations process, yes. MR PRINSLOO No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Just try and ignore them. MS VAN DER WALT I tried very hard. CHAIRPERSON Do carry on please. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Cronin, you were referred to page 43 of R5, the last paragraph I think - if I could just get the document, I just wish to ascertain whether I have the right document - paragraph. Just a moment please Mr Chair. It is page 43, the second paragraph. Mr Prinsloo dealt with this paragraph with you and you have it, is that correct? - page 43. I would like to put it to you that you make a statement that during the negotiations there were negotiations above the table while under the table people were kicking at you, is that correct? MR CRONIN Yes, absolutely. MS VAN DER WALT MR CRONIN "When we finally launched an armed struggle we were not abandoning our quest for peace, we were pursuing that quest in the most effective way left to us by an ...[indistinct] and brutal regime. Over the decades deploying mass struggle, armed struggle, underground work and building international solidarity, we finally forced the White minority regime to negotiate with our liberation movement and that was our victory. In the interests of speeding up the negotiations process, in August 1990 we announced that we were suspending our armed struggle. Our strategic deployment of violence was put on hold" That I think, helps to explain to you - as difficult as you may find it to be believe, why Chris Hani had laid up his arms. The fact that he was able to be assassinated in the middle of what was basically a White suburb on a Saturday morning, I think is another indication that this was not someone pursuing a military career or a military offensive - he was engaged in normal political activity seeking a peaceful solution to our country. That may be difficult for you to imagine but that was certainly what he was doing. MS VAN DER WALT While he knew that he was being kicked under the table, I would like to state to you that a man like Mr Chris Hani did not lay down arms and history - since 1990 until 1994, proved that the arms of Umkhonto weSizwe had not been laid down because there was much violence which had been caused by Umkhonto weSizwe and not just by the security forces. CHAIRPERSON MS VAN DER WALT I am stating it to the witness in the same way that he made certain utterances which were also of a political nature but history proved that there was violence but I will leave my political statement there. CHAIRPERSON MS VAN DER WALT MR CRONIN "Until we began to understand clearly what we were up against, it was impossible" he said. "And our counter-strategy has therefore also to be essentially political" Now, you might think that he was a military man case in a military mould, he was a political activist, he was a communist, he was a socialist and his aspirations were moral and political. He was only secondarily a military person and I think that this quotation underlines that point as many other do as well. "Our counter-strategy has therefore also to be essentially political, not rushing back to arms, not getting into military ...[indistinct] The key to countering low-intensity warfare in our specific situation, is to uncover it publicly, to smoke it out and in so doing raise the political price that the regime pays for deploying this strategy" In other words, not to allow it to happen under cover, under the - ...[indistinct] to appear to be Nkatha or faction fighting or White on Black violence but to smoke it out and to show it for what it is, namely a fairly cynical strategy deployed by the regime at the time. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Cronin, you testified and said that in particular with regard to the questions in respect of Vula, there was an uncertainty among the members of your Party regarding the unbanning of the ANC and the SACP and that is why certain people remained underground, is that correct? MR CRONIN For a brief period, yes. MS VAN DER WALT MR CRONIN MS VAN DER WALT And you also do not expect the broad public - and that includes everybody, to read what the Communist Party writes but you do not read what is said about the Conservative Party? MR CRONIN MS VAN DER WALT MR CRONIN The intelligent politicians are circumspect, my problem with politicians who confuse circumspection with principal is the chief problem that I would have. So, yes, we were circumspect, yes, we were uncertain about our safety, yes, we were not sure if the negotiations would produce peace but as we changed our policy in regard - for instance to violence, we said it very clearly and we committed ourselves as a leadership to that. We were circumspect about - we were concerned about people who were in the underground who might be arrested, our circumspection proved correct. They were not waging an armed struggle - those people in that underground, they were not preparing an insurrection but they were survivors from an underground. Some of them had not survived, some of their fellow members had died in detention - we were circumspect absolutely, we were concerned about their safety but in time and quite rapidly we were able to surface them as well. MS VAN DER WALT The ANC/SACP alliance - according to you, suspended the armed struggle but according to your own evidence I wish to state to you that the armed struggle continued in the self-defence unit which - as you had stated, went off the rails. MR CRONIN MS VAN DER WALT No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, any questions? ADV MPSHE No questions Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Andrew? JUDGE WILSON MR CRONIN Absolutely, I accept that and it was certainly one of our problems at the time and remains a matter of concern - deep concern. MS KHAMPEPE MR CRONIN And he lists the reasons and he says: He was floating that idea and obviously the process overtook us but you can see where his thinking was travelling and that was in line with our conception of self-defence. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Bizos, before we adjourn, can you indicate what is going to happen tomorrow? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, are you likely to call any witnesses? ADV MPSHE No, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Is de Waal no longer a potential witness? MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS