amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS PRETORIA 7 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54876&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pta/derby07.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, are we ready to start? MR MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you, we are still in the hands of Adv Bizos, Mr Chairman, we are ready to start. MS VAN DER WALT Could you please excuse me Adv Bizos, I would just like to place something on record. With regard to the video cassettes made available to us, one of these cassettes, tape number six, very clearly dealing with the interrogation of Mr Walus by Captain Deetliefs, I know that Adv Bizos' attorney also looked at this cassette, watched it and the person in control of the sound system was asked this morning whether he could possibly test the cassette for me as well, because his apparatus is much stronger than the type that one has at home, but the sound does not come through at all in this particular interrogation. Captain Holmes, yesterday was requested by me to see if there were, perhaps, other tapes relating to the interrogation and he informed me that Captain Nick Deetliefs, the person who did the interrogation, was in possession of the same tape, but with the sound being of a better quality. I would like to request the Committee that Captain Holmes be instructed to place us in possession of that cassette, because it is absolutely essential before Mr Walus can testify to look at this tape and I would not like a delay at a later stage. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON What can you tell us about that Adv Bizos? MR BIZOS About those tapes? CHAIRPERSON Yes, about the tapes. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, we are not clear precisely what the position is. May I ask that this question be left over until Captain Holmes arrives. I have asked him to be here this morning. We need not take up more time in relation to it. Could we wait until Mr, Captain, the then, he is promoted now, but the then Captain Holmes... CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS Comes? CHAIRPERSON Mrs van der Walt, we will deal with that matter at an appropriate stage. MS VAN DER WALT Thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Derby-Lewis, you are reminded that you are still under your former oath. MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS (Still under affirmation). CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS (cont) Mr Derby-Lewis, you signed two application forms for amnesty. Is that correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes, I am not clear, Mr Chairman, on whether the first form I signed was for amnesty or indemnity. Is that what Mr Bizos is referring to? MR BIZOS No, I did not use the word "indemnity". I asked you whether you signed two applications for amnesty? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not ... MR BIZOS Is that correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure. MR BIZOS You are not sure? MR DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS Well, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Can I just have a minute to ... MR BIZOS ... let me try and help you. MR DERBY-LEWIS Please. MR BIZOS Have a look at the document which you signed on the 24th of April 1996 and tell us whether that is an application that you signed. You can have my copy or you may, your attorney may also have it. JUDGE WILSON It is in the bundle A at page 11, is it not? MR BIZOS The ... JUDGE WILSON The application signed on the 24th of April 1996. MR BIZOS Yes, that is so. And then ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes, that is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And then there was a subsequent application which is dated later, is it not or they are both dated the same time, but they are different. I would just like you to explain why there are two applications with the same date and why they are different. CHAIRPERSON Where are these to be found Mr Bizos? All in bundle A? MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, there is one on the 24th of April which appears on page 13 and then there are substitute pages on a different application. Yes, we got two from the Committee Secretary, Mr Chairman, and they are different. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, to the best of my knowledge, that was what caused the confusion at the last hearing and I believe it was explained to the Committee what happened. That, somehow or another, an incorrect document had arrived at the Committee and that it was then included in the application and we have another document and then we said, well, that documents which were submitted to the Committee, is the document which we had, but there was not a second application. It was, as far as I remember, it was only in the, in relation to 9(4), nature and particulars, the motivation explanation. Is that what Mr Bizos is referring to? MR BIZOS Yes, in November new, in November last year new pages were put in which were not in the original application. Do you agree with that? MR PRINSLOO To which pages are, Mr Bizos referring to, Mr Chairman? MR BIZOS If you have a look at the application of Mr Walus has the date of the 30th day of November, but what I am concerned with is that there are applications with different, there are pages with different allegations and I want to know how that came about? CHAIRPERSON Well, perhaps, before you ask him questions of that kind, I would like to know where these two applications are? I have an application in manuscript, the form filled in in manuscript, attached to that are answers to certain paragraphs of the application form in a typed form. MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now, are you referring to those? MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, we have the application which we have called the first application which appears, which we have marked 1 to 15. May I just hand this up for you to have a look at, please? JUDGE WILSON Because the original application you have referred to, which is at page 11 of bundle A, when it comes to paragraph seven, eight, nine and says see attached, see attached, see attached, see attached. All of it says that and then there are the attached pages, the typed pages. MR BIZOS We have been given two different versions and I do not think that the one version is before you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well, we will have to sort that out. Mr Mpshe, what can you tell us about this? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, thank you, there was, the applicant submitted only one application, Mr Chairman. The one that is on, from page 11 to page ... CHAIRPERSON 13. MR MPSHE ... as it goes on up to page 13. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MPSHE That is the only application filed by the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Right. MR MPSHE The only thing that was done by the applicant, Mr Chairman, is that they changed or amended the annexure to their application. CHAIRPERSON In other words, from page 15 onwards? MR MPSHE From page 15 onwards and, particularly, Mr Chairman, just for an example, page 17 thereof makes it clear what happened, page 17. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MPSHE It makes it clear that letters were written to the applicant that certain information has not been forthcoming or has not been given and they had to supply extra information to the original application. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MPSHE So the only change, Mr Chairman, is not on the application itself, but is on the annexure responding to questions as clarified by page 17. CHAIRPERSON Yes. JUDGE WILSON While we are talking about this, I think I would like to draw attention to the fact that, as far as I have been able to see, my paragraph, pages 15 and 16 are identical. MR MPSHE That is so, that is a duplication. 15 And 16 is one and the same. JUDGE WILSON Yes, it is a typing error. Then we go on to 17 and then 94 at page 18 goes on to the end. CHAIRPERSON So what has happened then, Mr Bizos, it seems that the original application has been supplemented by additional information. MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON In other words, there are not two separate applications. MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is that correct? MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, may I just indicate that we have the differences between the old and the new application. There were the application and, when I speak about application I speak about the filling in of the form and the typed addition to the form, there are difference which we have put together on the basis of the old and the new on an analysis. In order to save time, may I hand that, may I hand up a document which shows the differences so that when I examine Mr Derby-Lewis on it, we can have, we do not have enough copies, but we can make them available. I will, whilst they are being made I can just ask some preparatory questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well, Mr Derby-Lewis, in fairness, should have before you whatever documents you use to supplement your original application which, I take it, is in typed form. JUDGE WILSON Would you make copies? MR DERBY-LEWIS Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And if you have all the documents then we can proceed. Do you have them? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, I do not have the documents. CHAIRPERSON Though your own application? MR DERBY-LEWIS I have my own application. CHAIRPERSON Supplemented by a number of ... MR DERBY-LEWIS By the annexures. CHAIRPERSON That is right. MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I have them, Mr Chairman. MR PRINSLOO May we have a copy from Mr Bizos, Mr Chairman? MR BIZOS Yes, this was a document which I did not intend handing in, but they are my notes to put to the witness, but I have given it in as an assistance, because the witness and, apparently, his legal representatives are not aware of the differences or may not be aware of the differences and some of them are of a material nature. This is why copies are being made and we will hand them to the witness and to each member of the Committee and to the legal representatives. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, may I just come in just for convenience, Mr Chairman, the document handed in first by Mr Bizos, the alleged another application be numbered R7, please, and the document allegedly containing the difference between the first and the second application be referred to as R8. JUDGE WILSON Well, it is all part of the one bundle. MR MPSHE No, Mr Chairman, two separate documents were handed up just now. Only one copy was given to the Chair, that would be R8, the one outlining the differences. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but at some stage, I would like to know about this, which you conveniently wish to call R7, because R7 has the original application form which is in manuscript, which is already in bundle A. Bundle A, as we have said, up to page 14, they were already annexed, they form part of R7 and then the rest are what appear in bundle A as pages 15 and then there are different pages. JUDGE WILSON Yes, could we perhaps, while the Chairman is talking, give the page numbers. Page five of the bundle handed in by Mr Bizos is page 15 of bundle A. Page six, seven, eight and nine of Mr Bizos' number, Mr Bizos' bundle does not appear to be part of bundle A. Page ten of Mr Bizos' bundle appears to be page 23 of bundle A. Page 11 of Mr Bizos' bundle appears to be page 24 of bundle A and it goes on, 24, 25 and 26. CHAIRPERSON So, there are some pages now which have been handed in by Mr Bizos that do not form part of bundle A? MR BIZOS Yes, the drive of what we are saying is that although the pages appear to be the same, the contents differs. JUDGE WILSON Not of the ones I have given you, Mr Bizos, those are identical. MR BIZOS Well, that may be, but there are differences between the composite application, which we call first application, and the composite second application which finds itself in bundle A and the document that we are making a copy of draws attention to those differences. JUDGE WILSON Well, where does the composite first application come from? Mr Mpshe says the application in application A is the application lodged with the Committee. Where does yours come from? MR BIZOS Well, it came to us, Mr Chairman, when we asked for a copy of the application. We first received the first one and then we were given the second one, as amended. JUDGE WILSON Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, I will have to put this again on record. The copy that Adv Bizos has ended up as R7, intended to be another application, is incorrect. It is the original application filed by the applicant. It is repeated that on my copy it does not show exactly when, correctly when this was filed. This application was filed, I am trying to make it up here, on the fourth of May 1996. So, it is still the original application. The only change that was made by the application is in as far as answering of questions are concerned. I can refer the Chair again to page ten, page ten of bundle A. It is just an amendment to the answering of questions and not a new application. Page ten is also a clarification to that. The application still remains the same. CHAIRPERSON Yes. JUDGE NGOEPE But Mr Mpshe, I, whereabouts page 18 and so on of the, of bundle A, how does it relate to page six of the bundle which Mr Bizos has just given us, because both, they have a commonality. Paragraph, they all purport to be paragraph 9(4), nature and particulars, but the contents differ. Now, I do not know whether what you are saying is that pages 18 and so on replaced pages six of Mr Bizos' documents and so on. MR MPSHE Mr Chair, as it can be noted, page five is an amendment filed by Janusz Walus and page 18 is amendment filed by Clive Derby-Lewis. These are amendments from two different applicants. Page five is that of Janusz Walus. JUDGE NGOEPE Yes, but page 18 is an amendment by Mr Derby-Lewis, but you see amending paragraph 9(4) as given to us by Mr Bizos. MR MPSHE I have not seen what Mr Bizos has given you, I was never given a copy. If I can just be allowed. JUDGE NGOEPE Yes, please have a look at that, because it is confusing to us. CHAIRPERSON It is, indeed, at this stage in the proceedings. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, it is true that the same application form may cover both. What we are concerned with that between May and November the applications of both applicants were amended in certain respects. That is the whole purpose and I want to ask questions as to how these amendments came to be made and why. That is really the ... JUDGE WILSON Well, I want to get clarity as to how and when, have you got the papers now, Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE I do have the papers, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON If you will look at Mr Bizos' page six, that is nature and particulars and starts, "After the speech of F W de Klerk ...", in relation to paragraph 9(4). Correct? MR MPSHE I do have it. JUDGE WILSON Now, in bundle A at page 18 ... MR MPSHE 18. JUDGE WILSON ... we have another answer to 9(4). CHAIRPERSON The heading is the same. MR MPSHE Yes. CHAIRPERSON The document ... JUDGE WILSON No, the heading is from Prinsloo and van der Walt, phone number 0157-308, April the 14th, 1997. That is along the top of my page. CHAIRPERSON That is a fax. MR MPSHE That is a fax. JUDGE WILSON So, this ... MR MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON So, this was faxed to you on the 14th of April 1997, it would appear? MR MPSHE That is correct, Mr Chairman, page ... JUDGE WILSON And was it substituted then for the one that Mr Bizos has put forward? MR MPSHE That is correct, Mr Chairman, page 18 in bundle A is amendment of page six on Mr Bizos' documents. That is correct. JUDGE WILSON And it was done on the 14th of April of this year? MR MPSHE Of this year. JUDGE WILSON The original ... MR MPSHE I ... JUDGE WILSON ... application that was filed ... MR MPSHE On the fourth of May 96. JUDGE WILSON ... of 1996, contained the 9(4) set out at page six ... MR MPSHE Six. JUDGE WILSON .. of Mr Bizos' bundle? MR MPSHE That is correct. JUDGE WILSON So, he is correct in saying there has been a substantial change to 9(4)? MR MPSHE That is correct, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Thank you. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Mpshe will probably be able to confirm this, the fact raised by Judge Wilson, that it was faxed, I think he will have a letter, Mr Mpshe, will have a letter on his files in which the original document which was sent in November, apparently, somehow or other got lost at the Committee's offices and Mr Mpshe and I had a telephonic discussion and then it was faxed to him. I think he will be able to confirm this and it will be in his files. MR MPSHE That is correct, Mr Chairman, I can confirm that. CHAIRPERSON Well, it now appears, Mr Derby-Lewis, that there have been certain additional pages that were not part of your original application, you are aware of those? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And you are about to be questioned on the difference between the contents of those pages and your original application. MR DERBY-LEWIS Now, Mr Chairman, I believe I am being questioned, but I would appreciate a short time just to peruse this document, because, you know, because, as Mr Bizos says, it differs from the other. CHAIRPERSON Yes. How many pages are there that have to be perused? JUDGE WILSON Four. MR DERBY-LEWIS Four, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Four pages. MR DERBY-LEWIS Four pages. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS And on the other one it is five. MR BIZOS These are my notes from cross-examination. I am entitled to put these questions to Mr Derby-Lewis. I am merely handing it in, in order to assist the Committee in order to solve the riddle of the different documents. CHAIRPERSON Right. MR BIZOS I do not know, I am entitled to put the questions cold, with respect. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you are Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS May I proceed? CHAIRPERSON Yes, please. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, with respect, we have not received the notes of Mr Bizos. What we have received is the bundle, which is now referred as R7, and that is what the witness is asking the Committee's indulgence, he wants to peruse R7, which he did not have in his possession, and then compare it with the documents referred to which were submitted at a later stage, which comprises pages 17 to page 22. That is what the witness asked. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, R7 comes from their file, Mr Chairman, ... CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS ... but the, let us, I will withdraw my objection, Mr Chairman, ... CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS VAN DER WALT ... for his looking at the document. I do not know what he can do about it. It may be quicker rather than having long arguments. CHAIRPERSON Well, because otherwise each time you put a question he will start paging through the documents to find ... MR BIZOS Let him look at it. I do not know what he can do with it, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Walus, Mr Prinsloo, without wasting too much time, can you quickly look through it, because I am sure a lot of this is very familiar to you. It should not take you too long. MR DERBY-LEWIS I will do it as quickly as ... CHAIRPERSON These are part of your papers. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... possible, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS I will certainly do it as quickly as possible. CHAIRPERSON Alright. We will stand down just for a few minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS (Still under oath). CHAIRPERSON I trust that we are ready to proceed now. Mr Bizos, you may proceed with your cross-examination. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Derby-Lewis, the short adjournment was (speaker's microphone not on) did your wife join you and your legal representatives in consultation. MR DERBY-LEWIS I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Did your wife join you in the consultation that you had during the adjournment that was granted by the Committee? MR DERBY-LEWIS My wife was present in the room. She came to greet me, Mr Chairman, because she did not have time before the commencement of the session. MR BIZOS Who drew your application for amnesty, your attorneys or your wife? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, the document which is under question was the document which I sent in as part of my application before I had access to legal advice. So, ... MR BIZOS Who drew the application? MR DERBY-LEWIS I did, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Not your wife? MR DERBY-LEWIS Well, my wife filled in some of the questions as far as the attachment was concerned, but I drew the information up and provided it. I had no access to the facilities, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS You did not have an access to The Patriot and the other documents that quoted there? Is that correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am not aware of quotations out of The Patriot in my application. MR BIZOS The annexure to your application is full of quotations from The Patriot. MR DERBY-LEWIS Those were drawn up at my request, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS At your request by? MR DERBY-LEWIS I beg your pardon? MR BIZOS Who drew them up? MR DERBY-LEWIS By my wife. MR BIZOS By your wife? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, at my request. Who else would do it for me? MR BIZOS Was it your wife here before the original commencement of the proceedings? MR DERBY-LEWIS Before the commencement of these proceedings? MR BIZOS This morning, yes, was it your wife up on the stage in order to see you before the proceedings commenced this morning? MR DERBY-LEWIS Very briefly, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS But very briefly. MR BIZOS No, but what you said that she came up, because she did not have time to see you in the morning, that was not quite correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, but I qualified my statement by saying that it was, she only was able to see me very briefly before the ... MR BIZOS You qualified that when I put it to you that your wife did, in fact, see you this morning. MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not, Mr Chairman, I qualified it when I spoke to the Committee. CHAIRPERSON I think, Mr Bizos, let us get down to the real ... MR BIZOS To the substance. CHAIRPERSON ... issues. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, I am going to put to you that the amendments to the application were made in order to bring them, to bring your application into line, possibly some of the decisions given by the Committee, that you became aware of after you filed your original application. What do you say to that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I say that that amendment was submitted on the advice of my attorneys who were responsible for the submissions from page 17 onwards on my behalf. MR BIZOS Yes. Now, let us just go through some of them, the more important ones. I will refer to the summary, Mr Chairman, for the sake of... CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS ... R8. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS Will you please look at the third last one from the bottom. MR DERBY-LEWIS What page? Sorry, Mr Chairman, what page is that? MR BIZOS R8, page two. MR DERBY-LEWIS Page two. Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS "We were now at the stage where other methods would have to be used to ensure our freedom from a communist dominated regime." Now that was in the old application and it does not appear in the amended application. Do you agree? MR DERBY-LEWIS What was in the amended application was, "... simply to ensure the freedom of our people.". MR BIZOS Do you agree that what I read out on the left-hand column does not appear ... MR DERBY-LEWIS That ... MR BIZOS ... in the amended application? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Now, when you wrote in the original application, "We were now at the stage ...", who is the "we" that you were referring to. MR DERBY-LEWIS We on the right, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS We of the right, not any particular individuals? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Well, name one or two individuals of "we" on the right. Name one or two of the "we" on the right when you wrote the word "we" there. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Robert van Tonder of the Boerestaat Party, Mr Eugene Terreblanche of the Afrikaner Weerstand Beweeging. It was general consensus in the Conservative Party as well, Mr Chairman, that attitude. MR BIZOS No, no, you mentioned two individuals outside the Conservative Party. Would you please favour us with a couple names from the Conservative Party that you referred to as "we"? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, it will be clear from the congress records which I submitted in terms of the mobilisation application, that it was patently obvious that there were three options open to us. The one was elections, which had already been stopped, the other was negotiations and that was the time of CODESA, which we refused to participate in and the third one was passive or active resistance. So, that ... MR MPSHE Mr Derby-Lewis, they are asking you for the names of people from the right, from the Conservative Party, just the names of individuals. MR DERBY-LEWIS My colleagues in the caucus, Mr Chairman, MR MPSHE They have got names, do they not? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Schalk Pienaar, the former MP for Potgietersrus, Mr Heug Prinsloo, the former MP for Roodepoort, my colleagues on the caucus, Mr Chairman. MR MPSHE Yes. MR BIZOS Why did the AWB and Mr van Tonder come in, come to your mind and why did we have difficulty and to have to have judicial intervention before you could mention any name of a person in the Conservative Party? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I thought that by broadly referring to the Conservative Party it was clear who it was and as far as van Tonder and Terreblanche are concerned, I have attended meetings of theirs where these sentiments had been expressed. MR BIZOS Yes. Let us, I think we have made that point. Thank you Mr Derby-Lewis. Let us turn to the next one. The final paragraph on the right-hand column, "The reason for the silencer was allowed me to practice with it at home without disturbing the neighbours.". There is no similar paragraph in the old. Do you agree with that? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Now, is this true, Mr Derby-Lewis, in your second application, is it true? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is true, Mr Chairman, and it came out ... MR BIZOS Now, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... during consultations with my legal representatives and they advised me to include it. MR BIZOS I see, but now, is it true, as a matter of fact, that you, a person with military training, licensed firearm holder for many years, needed training with the stolen gun that you had obtained? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Now, the silencer is a special bit of equipment to be used particularly by assassins. MR DERBY-LEWIS It has been used by assassins, yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Particularly by assassins. MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS For anyone to pertain that a silencer was obtained for the purposes of taking your, protecting yourself from any attackers is hardly believable, is it? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, it is quite clear that in the event of a night time attack, for example, the presence of a silencer at the end of the barrel would conceal the flashes and would then make it very difficult for anyone attacking to identify where I was returning fire from. MR BIZOS Oh I see. MR DERBY-LEWIS Very clear. MR BIZOS But I thought that you were concerned about the neighbours. You did not want any noise to be made for the benefit of the neighbours? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I ... JUDGE WILSON Is that fair, Mr Bizos, on what is written there? Are there not two reasons given? MR BIZOS Allow him to practise with it ... JUDGE WILSON Allow him to practise without disturbing the neighbours and also to supply me with some element of surprise in the event of an attack from ... MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS Some element of surprise. Now, surely, attackers do not, well let me put it this way. Have you or have you ever heard anybody having a silencer for the purposes of using it for better self-defence? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I was not interested in anybody, I was interested in my own circumstances and in view of the fact that there had been attempts on my life in the past and that I had been officially notified by both the ANC and APLA that I was on their death list, I think it would be reasonable to expect something like that and to take the necessary precautions to protect my family and myself. MR BIZOS Let us go on to page three. You describe Mr Hani in the first application, the first version of the application as a, "... former MK commander. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And that is amended to, " ... was a senior commander of MK.". MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Why did you decide to change that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Because, once again, during consultation, Mr Chairman, my legal advisers believed that it was not correct to say that and they advised me to amend it. MR BIZOS But surely your legal advisers were there not, were not there to advise you to "change former MK commander" to "the senior commander of MK" if those were not the facts as you knew them when you first made, you made the first application? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, when we consulted it actually came out that I was not referring to the late Chris Hani as a former commander, I was referring to him as the commander of MK and my legal team then advised me to change it. MR BIZOS But you described him as the "former commander". What information did your legal representatives give you that made you change the allegation of fact, from a "former commander" as the, "was the senior commander of MK", why was that change made? MR DERBY-LEWIS I have explained that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS You have, you think you have. Very well. Now, there was no allegation in the original application, "... a prime military target.". MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Now, by the time this change was made did you know that in numerous applications for amnesty before the Committee, members of the security forces identified the people that they killed as military targets? MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not know that, Mr Chairman. As far as my memory serves me, there was no mention of that in any of the communications or the publications to which I had access in prison and I was not present at the hearings of the Committee. MR BIZOS I see. Were not the decisions of the Committee in the possession of your attorneys or your wife or your both? MR DERBY-LEWIS Certainly not, Mr Chairman, in the possession of my wife and, to the best of my knowledge, not in the possession of my attorneys, because this was only requested very recently. MR BIZOS On the bottom of page three, "Mr Hani said that he would regard White MP's of the ruling National Party and the far right Conservative Party as legitimate targets for attack". That is not repeated in the application. MR DERBY-LEWIS That was, once again, on the advice of my legal representatives, Mr Chairman, and I think that I clarified that during evidence to the Committee last week. MR BIZOS Why was that allegation left out of the application in its final form? MR DERBY-LEWIS It was left out on the advise of my legal people, Mr Chairman. You must ask them that question. MR BIZOS I see. Well, did you not ask them whether they considered it irrelevant or is it, perhaps, because you had no evidence of Mr Hani saying that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I may be a strange person, but I take the advice of my legal representatives without querying. I place ...(intervention) MR BIZOS What ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... absolute confidence in them. MR BIZOS What evidence did you have that Mr Hani said this when you made your original application? MR DERBY-LEWIS I knew about it, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS How did you know about it? MR DERBY-LEWIS Because I was affected by it. MR BIZOS I beg your pardon. MR DERBY-LEWIS I was affected by it. MR BIZOS How did you know that Mr Hani had said that, "... far right Conservative Party as legitimate targets ...", where did you see that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Well, I could not remember, Mr Chairman, ... MR BIZOS You could not remember. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... and that could be why my legal team advised me to take it out, but I subsequently became aware of a report in the London Times in 1988 in the United Kingdom which actually was, broadly, the same statement. JUDGE WILSON But in your, as I understand it, what was your original application, you gave all this information, did you not? Page eight was your original application, was it not? MR DERBY-LEWIS Page eight. MR BIZOS 15 To 21. Although they are not marked, it will give you some idea where on the page, Mr. JUDGE WILSON Page 19 says, "According to the London Times, 08/06/88." MR BIZOS Would you like to think of another explanation in view of Judge Wilson's ... MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS ... bringing to our attention that what you have said immediately before was not correct. MR DERBY-LEWIS Page 18, page 18? JUDGE WILSON Page eight, paragraph 18. MR PRINSLOO Page eight, paragraph 19. MR BIZOS 19, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Is it 19, sorry. MR DERBY-LEWIS Then it could have been because I did not have access to the documentation at the time, Mr Chairman, but I cannot remember everything what I, what, but I want to stipulate that everything that I submitted was on the advice of my legal team. That is why we submitted that application. MR PRINSLOO Just show me the full text of this. MR BIZOS Page eight, paragraph 22, yes. Please look at the bottom of page eight of R7. MR DERBY-LEWIS Page eight. MR BIZOS "We decided that we would try to prevent this take-over and we set about planning how to do this.". Who is the "we" that you are referring to there? MR DERBY-LEWIS Is it this page? MR PRINSLOO I do not know. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am not clear which page eight Mr Bizos is referring to. Page eight ... MR BIZOS Of ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... of ... MR BIZOS ... of R7. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... R7. The last sentence, right. "We decided we would try to prevent this take-over and we set about planning to do this." Yes. MR BIZOS Who is the "we"? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Walus and I. MR BIZOS Just the two of you? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS If you have a look at bundle A, page 21, paragraph eight ... JUDGE WILSON Where is paragraph eight? My page 21 has got three paragraphs on it. MR BIZOS Could I refer to the middle paragraph. JUDGE WILSON Where is that? MR MPSHE It is page 21. MR BIZOS You see the middle of the paragraph, of the middle paragraph of page 21, you actually place, you only mention that Mr, "He decided that he would deal with Chris Hani and set about planning his campaign.". MR DERBY-LEWIS That was after I identified Mr Hani as the target, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Now, but why ... MR DERBY-LEWIS He still had to make the decision to ...(intervention) MR BIZOS Why did the "we" become "he" in the second application? MR DERBY-LEWIS Once again, on the advice of my legal team, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And again, in the old application you say, "We decided that Mr Walus would reconnoitre Mr Hani's place of residence.". Do you see that? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS But that changes in, "He set out reconnoitring Hani's address.". Why did the "we" become "he". MR DERBY-LEWIS Because during our discussions it was clear to my legal representative that, in fact, Walus had said he would carry the recces, I did not decide that with him and that is why they advised me to change it. MR BIZOS And then you say in the old, "I handed the firearm to Mr Walus on the sixth April in order to execute the plan.", but in the new application you say, "Although I handed Mr Walus the firearm on 6 April ... as I was determined to give as a matter that was as important and as significant as this one further thought.". Why was it decided to change that aspect of the application? MR DERBY-LEWIS That was, once again, the advice of my legal representative, Mr Chairman, after consultation. MR BIZOS But, do you take advice from your legal advisers as to what the facts were or do you take advice as to what the Law or practice is? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I take advice from my legal advisers who advise me once they have heard what the facts were. MR BIZOS And then you see the other two inconsistencies which are, I do not want to read out, but what I want to put to you is that there were material changes of fact between the two applications, both under oath, in order to assist yourself in the success of the application without any regard to the truth, particularly in relation to the matters to which I have drawn your attention. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is not correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS That is not correct. Now, I want to turn to your application. The list, the list of facts. In bundle A, I beg your pardon, the list is actually in bundle B, Mr Chairman. Will you please have a look at bundle B, page two. Okay. Have you got it on page two of bundle B or one and two ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Again ... MR BIZOS ... in which annexure A is contained with a list of acts of violence committed. MR DERBY-LEWIS I have it, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS I want to confine myself from page one right up to the 10th of April 1993 in which your murder of Chris Hani is recorded and I want to ask you some questions of a general nature in relation to any one, to all of these acts. Do you say that any of the acts listed in annexure A was done for or on behalf of the Conservative Party? MR DERBY-LEWIS I testified, Mr Chairman, that this list was drawn up by the Afrikaner Weerstand Beweeging and it was, according to them, an accurate record of all acts of violence or attack which had been carried out by people on the right. MR BIZOS Please answer my question. MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not say anything about the CP, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS I asked you whether you pertain that anyone of these acts was committed for and on behalf of the Conservative Party, yes or no? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS No. Right. We can proceed from there. Would you agree that, except for your act on the 10th of April 1993, with one exception which I will draw your, possible exception that I will draw your attention to, that these acts of violence were directed at property rather than individuals? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am not aware of when these acts were perpetrated, but I look at one on the 21st of December 1991 which says a bomb explodes at a beer-hall in Costa, I am not aware of the time that that was carried out. It could have been full of people. There is no further details on that. MR BIZOS Well, let us leave that with a question mark. Have a look at the others and tell us that before your assassination of Mr Hani, whether or not there was any violence against human life? MR DERBY-LEWIS It is quite possible that there were acts of violence here against human rights which are not given in the detail, Mr Chairman. I, without going through each one and without knowing the full details, I am not qualified to comment on that. MR BIZOS No, well, you see, if I were to suggest to you that in the main, these acts were symbolic acts of opposition to the, primarily to the National Party in which we do not know, except in one or two instances, whether they were intended that there should be loss of human life, but even in cases where there was human life lost, it appeared to be of an unfortunate result of the main act of actually attacking the property. With one or two exceptions, would you agree with that? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, I do not agree with that, Mr Chairman. In fact, it is not true to state that. I am of, just while you are talking I have been going through this thing quickly and I pick up immediately on the 6th of July 1990, a bomb explodes at a taxi rank in Central Johannesburg. I am sure that the Committee will agree with me that that has nothing to do with the National Party, number one. MR BIZOS Yes. I said ... MR DERBY-LEWIS It says further 27 people injured, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes, I, remember my words, in the main. I will draw attention to the exceptions. In the main ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, ... MR BIZOS ... do you agree? MR DERBY-LEWIS ... without going through each of these individual cases ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... and getting, having the full details, I am not qualified to reply to that question. MR BIZOS This was an annexure to your own application. Did you not apply your mind when you annexed it in support of your application, what its meaning and effect was? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I took it at face value. MR BIZOS And what is its face value that you took it at? MR DERBY-LEWIS Well, its face value is, Mr Chairman, that the right perpetrated many deeds of violence in which people were killed. Deed number, 14th of July 1990, a hand grenade attack on a hotel in Roodepoort kills two men and injures 21. There are many of those and it could be that those details are not included in the other reports as well. MR BIZOS I see. Now, do you know, once it was not the Conservative Party, do you know of any known political organisation that was responsible for any of these acts? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I was assured that the AWB had done research on this and they had found that these acts had been perpetrated by the right. MR BIZOS The question was, did anybody from the AWB tell you that these were acts committed with the authority of the Afrikaner Weerstand Beweeging? MR DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS They did not tell you? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, they did not tell me. MR BIZOS Very well. Now, you annexed this and you are relying on it and you talk about the right, the rightwingers or whatever. The question is that you are unable to tell the Committee whether any known political organisation or liberal, liberation movement or people in the employ of the security services were responsible for any of these acts. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman, I took it at face value. MR BIZOS Did you know when you did this application that there were people moving around in the 90's who were referred to as the "Brandy and Coke Brigades", people who sat around bars and got drunk and then went out and committed some act of violence or other supposedly in furtherance of some object or other. Had you ever heard of those people? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, I have not, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Well, the Committee will hear about them in due course. You, did you enquire as to whether the act where people were actually killed on the 9th of October, that a bus full of commuters is attacked outside Durban, six people are killed in the attack, which is in relation for an attack on White pedestrians in Durban the day before. MR DERBY-LEWIS A retaliation. MR BIZOS Retaliation by a group of, well let us first of all. Wanton acts of violence committed against White people on the one day and wanton acts of violence committed against Black people the next day on a bus. That can hardly be on behalf of a political organisation. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I was personally aware of the circumstances regarding this specific case, because... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... I was detained at maximum prison together with the three men who were sentenced to death for their part in this ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... attack and they assured me they were AWB and they were acting on behalf of the AWB. MR BIZOS Is that what they told you? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is what they told me, yes. MR BIZOS I see and you cannot tell us whether they were telling you the truth or not, of course? MR DERBY-LEWIS I have no idea, ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS .. Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And I am going to put to you that when you, Walus and we will submit together with others committed this there was no precedent of assassination of a top political leader in the country. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, that is not correct. I am aware of an assassination carried out by the ANC on a member of the KwaNdebele, sorry the Kangwane Government. MR BIZOS Well, you may have regarded him a high profile leader, but, well, let us, is that the example you followed? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is the example that I ... MR BIZOS Or was it an attack of revenge? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is the example I followed, I am aware of, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS When was he killed? MR DERBY-LEWIS I do not have the details, but I can provide them, because I have information regarding that. MR BIZOS Well, did you follow that example? MR DERBY-LEWIS I beg your pardon. MR BIZOS Did you follow that example, is that it? Is that a new reason why you tell us you killed Chris Hani, because ... MR DERBY-LEWIS No, no that is ... MR BIZOS ... someone was killed in KwaNdebele? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is not correct, Mr Chairman, I am just contradicting what Mr Bizos has said about no other... MR BIZOS I see. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... leading people being assassinated and, also, Mr Chairman, I have testified in my testimony last week, that the ANC, themselves, were even planning to assassinate the whole National Party cabinet. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Derby-Lewis, I think this should be mentioned to you that if you are referring to the assassination of a former Cabinet Minister of KwaNdebele, Mr ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Kangwane. CHAIRPERSON Kangwane. JUDGE NGOEPE ... Kangwane. MR DERBY-LEWIS I think it was Kangwane, but I know there was a Cabinet Minister of one of the self-governing territories. JUDGE NGOEPE Maybe we should leave it there, because you are not sure which one. I was going to, I thought you were possibly referring to KwaNdebele, but if you are not very sure then we should leave it there. MR DERBY-LEWIS It could be that I am confused between the names of the two ... JUDGE NGOEPE Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... territories, but I know that a Cabinet Minister was attacked and assassinated. MR BIZOS In relation to any ANC decision, was it not scotched by the leadership of the ANC? MR DERBY-LEWIS The plan itself? MR BIZOS The proposal, if there was one, was it not scotched by the leadership of the ANC? MR DERBY-LEWIS It was, Mr Chairman, but not on moral grounds. MR BIZOS Well, this was during the 80's, was it not? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS But you knew that they did not, well, that they scotched that particular plan. Let us just leave it at that. MR DERBY-LEWIS On, but not on moral grounds. MR BIZOS Oh, I see, yes. You say that they had other grounds? Very well. MR DERBY-LEWIS They say so themselves, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS And I think I testified to that ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... effect. They say themselves that they were afraid that the struggle would then be taken in another direction. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS Nothing to do ... MR BIZOS Because ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... with moral grounds. MR BIZOS Because, presumably, they were concerned that chaos and a race war should not come about as you intended. MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not able to presume that on their behalf, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. Did you anticipate that there would be a race war in the vacuum that was created with Mr Derby-Lewis', Mr, I beg your pardon, Mr Hani's assassination? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, I did not, Mr Chairman, particularly, when one recalls that when one of our former Prime Ministers, Dr Hendrik Verwoerd, was assassinated, every Greek in the country did not pick up arms and start shooting Afrikaners or every Afrikaner did not pick up arms and start shooting every Greek in the country. MR BIZOS To the credit of the Afrikaner people. MR DERBY-LEWIS But the fact remains that there was no idea of a potential race war, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. What did you mean by chaos? MR DERBY-LEWIS General mayhem, Mr Chairman, and, obviously, ... MR BIZOS What is general mayhem? MR DERBY-LEWIS People killing one another, but Mr Chairman ... MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MR DERBY-LEWIS People killing one another, but ... MR BIZOS How many people did you expect to be killed for the purposes of the success of your objective? MR DERBY-LEWIS I was hoping that it would be kept to a minimum. I think, Mr Chairman, it has been clear in our planning, that we wanted to avoid harming as many innocent people as possible and our hope was that it would happen quickly, there would be a minimum of casualties, but it would be obvious that there is total lack of control, because de Klerk would not act anyway and that the people would be, could then be motivated into filling the gap. MR BIZOS Mr Derby-Lewis, are chaos, mayhem and minimum synonyms? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am not here on a language discussion. MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not here on a language discussion, I am ... MR BIZOS I am sorry, I am not hearing, what sort of discussion? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not here with, busy with a language discussion. MR BIZOS Language is very important in communicating your thoughts and you used those three words in relation to your objective. How could there be chaos and mayhem as your stated objectives in one hand and minimum number of people being killed on the other? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, the fact that we only targeted one person shows that our intention was to keep it down to a minimum. We could have gone out and targeted a whole lot of people if we wanted to do what you are insinuating. MR BIZOS Well, if that answer is correct, either you have not disclosed the real objective of creating chaos and mayhem or your objective failed. Which of the two do you say was the case? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, our objective was reached up until the time of the problems experienced at Bophuthatswana. In fact, Mr Chairman, to my knowledge as well, there was not that much, in terms of deaths, during the aftermath of the late Chris Hani's assassination. In fact, I have figures which I can provide for the Committee which are produced by the Human Rights Monitor which indicate, in fact, that there were more people killed the week before Mr Hani's assassination than during the week of his assassination. MR BIZOS Do you agree that the country was thrown into a crisis as a result of the assassination? MR DERBY-LEWIS I agree it was, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Did you agree or do you agree that not only did people die, but that the confidence in the future of the country was severely effected? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, may I ask Mr Bizos from what document on record he is quoting so that ... MR BIZOS Well ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... I can see the context in which statement was made. MR BIZOS I am asking you whether, what your state of mind was and your information. Do not worry about the documents I am looking at. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am aware of press reports, but I am also aware that certain people published these alarmist opinions when, in fact, there are other reasons which are causing certain lacks of confidence and so on. MR BIZOS You see, let me just read to you, as an example, once, you will not admit something unless I refer you to a document. Business Day, Friday, April the 16th 1993 in R3, Section D, page 24. MR DERBY-LEWIS Section D. It is not in my bundle. MR BIZOS You got it? MR DERBY-LEWIS It is not in my bundle. JUDGE WILSON R3, Section B? MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS Oh, yes. MR BIZOS at "... consumer confidence had taken a near mortal blow since the assassination last Saturday ...". CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON R3, Section B. MR BIZOS D, D for Danny. CHAIRPERSON Oh, D. MR BIZOS D. CHAIRPERSON I am so sorry. MR BIZOS Page 34, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR BIZOS: "Business and consumer confidence had taken a near mortal blow since the assassination last Saturday of SACP leader, Chris Hani, economists said yesterday. Econometrics economist, Tony Twine, said confidence had been edging up since the beginning of the year. However, it had taken a dive since last weekend and it would plunge further if any of this weeks activities got out of hand. We are only halfway through the minefield. We need a clear demonstration that the authorities are in control and that rage and anger have cooled Twine said.". and then statements from Stellenbosch University, Mr de Klerk and everyone else and there are, there is a whole section, the whole of section D deals with the chaos that was caused and the attempts made by the Government and, particularly, the leadership of the ANC and the South African Communist Party to quieten people down, that you wanted to cause chaos and mayhem. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, as I have stated, and Mr Bizos has referred to this press report, it was one economist who made that statement. His statement was semi-supported by somebody from the University of Stellenbosch, but then that same person made a strange statement, Mr Chairman. He said further, "Until a new Government was in place and South Africans had a clear picture of the future, confidence would remain low.". That confirms the point I was making, Mr Chairman, that it is not these incidents that caused a big hiccup, it is a general situation and here, according to him, the situation was that people would not settle down until there was a new Government and it was not so much the Hani assassination. Then the further statement here, the Durban Regional Chamber of Business, Mr Chairman, said nothing about business confidence, it said that, "Rampages in Durban on Wednesday by ANC supporters were inexcusable.". Then, Mr Chairman, the Southern Natal ANC Alliance said, "Disciplinary steps would be taken against the unruly elements once they had been identified.". Nothing to do with business confidence and I am submitting, Mr Chairman, that always under situations like this journalists use people to exaggerate the situation and if you look at these other statements that Mr Bizos is referring to, Mr Chairman, there are a number of repeats. I did a quick spot check to see whether information connected in one clipping was, perhaps, also repeated in another clipping and that is so, Mr Chairman, and this is not the only section that this has been done. There are other sections where they have used up to six statements regarding the same incident to prove their point or to try to prove their point. MR BIZOS Mr Derby-Lewis, you say that your act was a successful act until the setback at Bophuthatswana. MR DERBY-LEWIS What I said, Mr Chairman, was what happened after confirmed that we were right in our assessment and that it would mobilise the Afrikaner leaders to act and to come together and to forget their differences and to try and stop the rot. MR BIZOS And the intention was to create chaos and mayhem? MR DERBY-LEWIS Which would result, which would cause that effect, yes. MR BIZOS Therefore, it is not the journalists that are misinterpreting the situation, you yourself say you succeeded, you created chaos and mayhem? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, but I said the extent of the chaos, because we wanted the minimum of problems to take place, the extent of the chaos has been exaggerated by journalists. MR BIZOS But you yourself say that it was a success and if the final success had come about at Bophuthatswana, then it would have been a 100% success. MR DERBY-LEWIS I was referring to the reaction amongst right wing leaders, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS Because it was, in that respect, a success. MR BIZOS Was the CP ... CHAIRPERSON How, sorry. MR BIZOS Was the CP involved in Bophuthatswana? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, they were, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Who, by who? MR DERBY-LEWIS To the best of my knowledge, Dr Hartzenberg, himself was present. MR BIZOS Oh, let us hear about that. What role did Mr Hartzenberg play in the attempt to ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Prevent ... MR BIZOS ... use violence ... MR DERBY-LEWIS To ... MR BIZOS ... against Bophuthatswana. MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, I did not say he was there to use violence against Bophuthatswana, I said he was there to prevent violence being perpetrated against Bophuthatswana. MR BIZOS The Government of the day was the National Party. MR DERBY-LEWIS The Government of Bophuthatswana, Mr Chairman, was the Government under President Mangope. MR BIZOS The Government of South Africa was under the control of the National Party? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman, but Bophuthatswana was an independent ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... state MR BIZOS Yes. Let us work on the premise that you are working on, that it was, indeed, an independent state. MR DERBY-LEWIS It is a constitutional fact, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes, let us even work on that premise. I do not want to argue the situation on a political basis as to whether it was a legitimate state or not. Let us work on your premise. The South African Government and Mr Derby-Lewis is a South African, of course, I beg your pardon, Mr Hartzenberg, is a South African citizen and a political leader in South Africa not in Bophuthatswana? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Was an attempt made by certain sections of the community to buttress up Mr Mangope's regime and to take over in order to avoid the process that had started for a united South Africa? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman, in Mr Bizos' ... MR BIZOS Did Mr Hartzenberg take part in the events and was he in any way responsible for the shooting that there was done in Bophuthatswana during that attempt? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, as I was not present on the ground, I am not qualified to comment on that. MR BIZOS Was it policy of the Conservative Party to have heavily armed people in bakkies, on bakkies, on their motor cars to go in with arms and kill innocent people in Bambatha and in Mafekeng? Did he make himself party to this? MR DERBY-LEWIS I testified earlier, Mr Chairman, that there was no written policy ever, from the CP's part, regarding violence, but that the status quo, the facts of the situation was different. MR BIZOS Was he party to any act which the Bophuthatswana army had to repel? MR DERBY-LEWIS I said, Mr Chairman, I am not aware of what happened on the ground ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... and I am not qualified to comment on that. MR BIZOS You see, have you been called a racist, Mr Derby-Lewis? MR DERBY-LEWIS Many times, Mr Chairman. I have discovered that when liberals have no other criticism, they resort to this hoary old chestnut, because it is very difficult to dispute something like that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. Did you regret that an Air Zimbabwe pilot put his brakes on so hard as to brake, as to have a tyre burst in order to avoid a Black person on the runway at Jan Smuts Airport? MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not express regret over that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Well, we will prove what your statement was. MR DERBY-LEWIS You think so, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. Did you ever say that the solution to South Africa's problems was compulsory sterilisation of Black people? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, it is interesting that Mr Bizos raises that point, because that whole issue was the subject of a court case where I sued the then member of Parliament for Krugersdorp for lying in a propaganda piece of his and the lie was contained in that very statement which I took, it was an allegation by a journalist, that I had made that statement and I took the matter, Mr Chairman, to the Media Council, because I could not, at that stage, afford legal representative otherwise I would have really taken more serious action. I took the matter to the Media Council and at the Media Council, ruled in my favour that, in fact, I had not made that statement and when the journalist concerned was asked to produce the tape, because I insisted with journalists, because by that stage I had learnt what devious means these liberal journalists used to mislead the public, Mr Chairman, I insisted on the journalist concerned sitting there with a tape recorder to record every word we said. Mr Chairman, when the Media Council called for the production of that tape, as is now the case, apparently, with these tapes here, they were untraceable and then the story came back from the Editor that it had been taped over. Very conveniently taped over so that they could not produce the tape which would support what I had said, because I took that precaution. So, what Mr Bizos is now propagating there, Mr Chairman, is a blatant lie. MR BIZOS Well, let us see, I do not want to give you too, to take up too much time on this. You actually sued Mr Wessels and the Nationalist Party for calling you a racist? MR DERBY-LEWIS I sued Mr ... MR BIZOS Just answer the question. MR DERBY-LEWIS No, not for calling me a racist. I sued him for lying about me in a propaganda document. MR BIZOS Yes, which said that you were a racist? MR DERBY-LEWIS Which said that I said that statement that you ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... produced. MR BIZOS I know about that case and I am going to put it to you and I will put it briefly and, I believe, accurately and just give me an opportunity so that we can get on with it. You sued and they asked for absolution and absolution was granted. Is that correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And they appealed and the court in the Transvaal said that absolution should not be granted, should not have been granted? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Which gave you an opportunity to set the matter down in plain damages against Mr Wessels and the National Party? MR DERBY-LEWIS What Mr Bizos omits to mention, Mr Chairman, was that in the judgement by Judges Kriegler and Joffe, I think it was, they actually took an unprecedented step and they awarded interim costs in my favour because of the circumstances surrounding the case. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS And it cost the National Party, in my estimation, something like R45 000,00 in those interim costs. I had no costs, I had no money available, Mr Chairman, to once again go back to the process and to find myself in front of the same magistrate who had perpetrated that dastardly deed and I had no reason to expect, Mr Chairman, that I was going to receive justice from him again, because he had already perpetrated an open injustice. MR BIZOS Yes. What you say about the costs may be correct, but what you omit to say is that the magistrate recused himself and that the case had to start over again, but you forgot about it and you gave up your action. MR DERBY-LEWIS What I also omitted to say, Mr Chairman, was that the magistrate concerned was very shortly after that promoted to Regional Magistrate and he was a known member of the Broederbond operating in Krugersdorp and I believe it was due to his Broederbond connections that I was subjected to these disgraceful tactics. MR BIZOS Yes. Mr Derby-Lewis, do you still believe in separate development? MR DERBY-LEWIS I do, Mr Chairman, yes. MR BIZOS Does it follow that you do not accept a united South Africa with a common citizenship if you are a believer in separate development? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I do not believe that a united South Africa is the solution for what is a problem which was resolved elsewhere in the world through separate development. MR BIZOS Do you not believe that the problems of the country can be solved with, in a united South Africa with a common citizenship? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, it is not only that I do not believe it, but it is quite obvious to me, if one looks at what is happening in KwaZulu Natal, that it is a problem, it, and I do not think it will be resolved. It is ... MR BIZOS So that as you are sitting there now you think that the war is still going on. Is that correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I believe it is still going on and is there, in KwaZulu Natal certainly, and is there anything to prove me wrong. MR BIZOS And that the attempts to have a united South Africa with a common citizenship, certainly, are not consistent with separate development that you believe in? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman MR BIZOS And if you have an opportunity, presumably, you will feel obliged, will you not, to try and change the preamble of the countries Constitution? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I believe that I have done my bit as far as the freedom struggle of my people is concerned. I have been detained in prison for almost four and a half years, I have been able to see my grandchildren once in that time, because I did not want to subject them to the, sorry, Mr Chairman, there is somebody else talking on the line here, I cannot. CHAIRPERSON I appeal again, please, do not make your comments whilst the witness is giving evidence. We cannot hear properly what he is saying. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, as I was explaining, that in the four and a half years, approximately, that I have been detained I have had access to my grandchildren once, because I do not believe that the prison environment is a suitable environment for them to be exposed to. I have been isolated from my friends and family. I explained the problem with the visits which has only recently been remedied, Mr Chairman, and I, quite honestly, must say, in addition, that I really do not know what the peoples' reaction will be to what I have done. I do not know, because I have not discussed it with them, because I think that it would be presumptuous of me in the first instance. Mr Chairman, I have already, should my application be successful, I have already decided that I am going to confine myself to my family and my friends who have stood by me so loyally during this period and I think I owe them something. Besides that, I owe it to myself. I love my children, I love my grandchildren and that is one of the things that I regret about this whole situation and that is that I have not been able to effect this love. I have even compensated with, sorry Mr Chairman, did you want to say something. CHAIRPERSON I do not know whether this answer you are giving is an answer to the question, as to whether, as far as you are concerned, the war in which you considered yourself engaged, whether in your mind, that war is still carrying on, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS But ... CHAIRPERSON ... as far as you are concerned. MR DERBY-LEWIS I am trying to explain this, Mr Chairman, and ... CHAIRPERSON No, you have told us that you have been in prison ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON ... and your personal difficulties while you were in prison. MR DERBY-LEWIS Right and ... CHAIRPERSON Now, that does not answer, pointedly, the question. In your mind, are you committed to the ongoing war in which you were involved? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am no longer committed to any arms struggle. CHAIRPERSON That is all. MR DERBY-LEWIS In fact, I must qualify that and say also, Mr Chairman, that I see a ray of sunshine in the present Constitution of this country which purports to uphold the self-determined, self-determination rights of peoples and I believe that that could be peacefully resolved and I am sure that my party is already discussing along those lines, but as far as I am concerned, the arms struggle is over and, as far as I am concerned, it would appear even that my political career is over, that I have no further purpose as far as my people are concerned. MR BIZOS Mr Derby- ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, might this be a convenient stage to take the adjournment? MR BIZOS Chair, if I may finish just ... CHAIRPERSON Please do. MR BIZOS ... the point ... CHAIRPERSON Please do. MR BIZOS: ... Mr Chairman. Listen, Mr Derby-Lewis, please. "We, the people of South Africa, believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.". Do you accept that or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I believe that my people are entitled to a territory where they are able to exercise their right of self-determination. MR BIZOS You, therefore, disagree with the first, one of the first principles of the Constitution, "that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our ...", you do not believe in that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am not totally familiar with the new Constitution, but I would interpret the clause relating to the self-determination right of peoples as in conflict with that. MR BIZOS And also that there must be a common citizenship? Do you believe in that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, as far as my people are concerned, as far as I am concerned, I acknowledge what appears, I take note of what appears in the preamble, but I also say that I have finished with a political role ... MR BIZOS The question ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... and I am sure that my people, the leaders of my people will not leave it at that. MR BIZOS The question was do you believe in a common citizenship which is inconsistent with your policy of separate development? MR DERBY-LEWIS I do not believe in that, Mr Chairman, no. MR BIZOS I did not hear the answer, Mr Derby-Lewis. MR DERBY-LEWIS No, I said I do not believe in that, but I ... MR BIZOS You do not believe in that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS It may be a convenient stage, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We will take a short adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS (Still under oath). MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Derby-Lewis, I want to turn to your acquisition of the gun which you handed over to Mr Walus in order that he may kill Chris Hani. Firstly, let us start with your reason for acquiring this gun. In your statements you have said that you acquired this gun primarily for self protection. Is that correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. You also told us that you understood the Kimberley resolution as a call to collect arms so that if the de Klerk Government or any other Government prohibited people from acquiring firearms, there would be a stockpile available to the right for self-protection? MR DERBY-LEWIS I cannot recall that I said that that was decided at the actual congress, but this was common cause and there were already stories floating around that weapons ... MR BIZOS I see. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... were going to be confiscated. MR BIZOS Even before the August 1992 Kimberley Conference? MR DERBY-LEWIS I know that people have been talking about this for quite a while, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Before August 1992? MR DERBY-LEWIS As far as I know as well, yes. MR BIZOS You set yourself up as one of the Voorbokke, so to speak, of doing something about the cause of the right? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, nothing that I did was in terms of setting myself up as one of the Voorbokke. I did it because I believed it to be necessary and part of, in terms of the climate which existed. MR BIZOS Well, I called you a Voorbok, because you were ahead even of Dr Ferdi Hartzenberg and other Conservative Party leaders. You were, apparently, a person who just did not talk, but you made, took practical steps in order to further the cause? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Right, now, how serious is, are you in giving evidence that this gun was acquired for that purpose and not for the purposes of assassination. If it is the only gun that you obtained for this purpose of a period of at least nine months, from the time of the conference at Kimberley, and on your present evidence even longer, because you told us that they were stored even before. One gun with a silencer for the purposes of arming the Volk. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, if everyone participated, all I needed was one weapon. MR BIZOS But you already had two, Mr Derby-Lewis? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, that is not correct, Mr Chairman, I only had one pistol. MR BIZOS Only one pistol? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct. MR BIZOS Oh, and was this ... MR DERBY-LEWIS And that was ... MR BIZOS ... acquired so that you could shoot with both hands? MR DERBY-LEWIS That was a 38 revolver, Mr Chairman, and I, while I can appreciate something like that appealing to Mr Bizos, that was not anything to do with the intentions behind the acquiring of the weapon. MR BIZOS Yes. Now, if you were serious about this mobilisation, surely you would have tried to do an arms stockpile for the benefit of the rights of the Volk? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, my perception was that that was not necessary, that the Volk would do that side of it themselves and that my responsibility was to prepare them for that. MR BIZOS And you were rather fortunate and in a better position in order to stockpile these arms, if your evidence is true, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS That is not ... MR BIZOS ... because you have, you had ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Excuse me. MR BIZOS ... come across a person that had, apparently, a stockpile of arms which were stolen from the army, according to the evidence? MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not know that, Mr Chairman. I did not know where he was going to get the weapons from and I did not ask him either. MR BIZOS Yes. In relation to the reason and manner in which you acquired this gun, when was it agreed that you would get the gun for Mr Walus to do the shooting? MR DERBY-LEWIS He asked me for the gun in the latter part of March, Mr Chairman. Up to that stage I had thought he was going to use his own weapon, because I knew he had a weapon. MR BIZOS And if anyone said that there was agreement between you about securing a gun at the end of 1992, would that be false? MR DERBY-LEWIS That would be false, Mr Chairman, yes. MR BIZOS Will you please turn to R4, page 51, paragraph 21. MR PRINSLOO What page number, Mr Bizos? MR DERBY-LEWIS Page 21, not 51, 21. MR PRINSLOO 21. MR BIZOS According to the notes made at the time, it would appear that, - I just want to get the correct - of your interrogation on the 20th of April, which appears on page 19, 93, it is noted that you said, "During the end of 1992, a decision was taken that Kuba would do the shooting and would be responsible for obtaining the firearm.". Were you correctly recorded there or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, this statement is totally devoid of any factual basis and, in fact, this statement to which Mr Bizos is referring is not in my words and I have called for the tape to try and compare this with what is on the tape and I have been told that the tape is not available, but, Mr Chairman, it must be clear and we, I am sure Mr Bizos will ask me out about certain other details here, that this could not have been correct. MR BIZOS You say that you never said anything of the sort? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS You are not saying that you were in any way compelled to say something like this? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am saying that I was under a general air of compulsion throughout my Section 29 interrogation, under a general air of compulsion. MR BIZOS Please make up your mind, if you can, whether if you said this, you said it, because you were compelled to say something which was not true? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I said that I did not say that, I could not remember saying that and I wanted to check what had been on the tape in order to refresh my memory as this interrogation was taken under extremely adverse conditions, as it will be apparent from here, it was on the 20th at 04H45 after I had been in detention since the 17th of April with very little sleep and with a lot of discomfort and pressure and harassment, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS No, please try and answer the question directly. Are you saying that you did not say it or that if you did say it, it was some form of compulsion that led you to say it? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am saying that I did not say it. MR BIZOS You did not say it? MR DERBY-LEWIS And if I was and there was a possibility that I was compelled to say this, but I would not have made this statement in my right mind, because I knew that that statement was incorrect. CHAIRPERSON I think that, you know, you are a sufficiently experienced man to know the difference between making a statement under compulsion and not making a statement at all. Now, either you made this statement or you did not make it. There may be some statements which you may have made under compulsion with which you do not agree now. Is this one of those, that you made a statement, but you disagree with it now or did you not make that statement at all? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I could not have made this statement in my right mind, because it was not factual. MR BIZOS The section at the, Section 20 before, did you make that statement? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, this whole document is not in my words. MR BIZOS Please ... MR DERBY-LEWIS I would not have made statements which appear here. MR BIZOS Please tell us whether you said what is contained in the short paragraph 20, whether you said that or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS I could have said that in, but not in this context, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS You could have said it, but? MR DERBY-LEWIS In another context, at another, discussing something else. CHAIRPERSON Is this paragraph 22, Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS 20, We will come to 22, Mr Chairman. What is the problem? In what context other than that within the paragraph itself was it being said? MR PRINSLOO OBJECTS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, with respect, in as far as this statement is concerned, we have asked on numerous occasions for the tapes to be made available. As is clearly, from reading this document, not in the words of the first person making a statement and up till now nobody produced those tapes, nobody has come forward to explain where they are and, secondly, Mr Chairman, this is not the original document. We asked for the original document and so far it has not been produced. CHAIRPERSON The Committee will bear that in mind when it decides on what value to give to all this evidence. MR PRINSLOO Right. With respect, Mr Chairman, the difficulty is how can the applicant refresh his memory from a document which is not in his words whereas there is a document, a tape available, which will reveal his precise words. That is the objection we made from the instance of this particular enquiry, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON For once and for all, Mr Bizos, can we put to rest this whole question of what has happened to these tapes and why they are not made available. MR BIZOS We have not given answer to that, we did not have them, Mr Chairman. The Commission had them, the police officers had them, the Commission had it. They say they handed everything over. We did not have the tape. I am entitled, with respect, in the absence of the tape, to lead the person who transcribed those tapes, that person may or may not be believed or the person that actually put this document together, whether this is what is said or not. I am entitled to use the document at this stage and, as you indicated, Mr Chairman, the weight to be placed upon the document will depend up on what evidence follows. JUDGE WILSON Who took ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, ... JUDGE WILSON MR PRINSLOO That is correct, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON But I understood, Mr Bizos, that you said at the beginning of proceedings today that Captain Holmes was on the way here and he would be able to say what happened to the tape and could it stand over till then. MR BIZOS Yes. JUDGE WILSON Well, where is he? MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, according to my, he is in the vicinity, Mr Chairman. He says that everything that he had, he handed over, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well, Mr Mpshe, can you tell us what has happened to these tapes. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, the tapes referred to are tapes number three and four and Captain Holmes indicated to me last week Thursday, that he was going to look for them and when he came back to me today he indicated that these tapes were used by a Mr Deetliefs and he is going to look for Mr Deetliefs to come and explain as to what happened to the tapes, as well as to explain the statement and he has not come back to me. CHAIRPERSON So, it is not correct that they are in the possession of the Commission? MR MPSHE It is not correct. I have got a note which... CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand. MR MPSHE ... Sergeant Holmes wrote to me that he is going to look for them. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, you are entitled to put your questions and you heard that these tapes are not being held back from you for some other purpose. So, you either agree to the questions that are put to you or reserve your right to answer questions if you have some doubt about them. Let us proceed. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I wish to reserve my right to answer any questions in connection with this. CHAIRPERSON Well, maybe there are questions in certain paragraphs which might correctly reflect the position. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, that will then be used to give credibility, possibly, to this document and I cannot, under those circumstances, answer. I wish to reserve my right regarding answering any of these questions at this stage. CHAIRPERSON It is not a question of giving credibility to this document. We are not concerned about this document, we are concerned about the evidence you are going to give as what you think is the right answer to the questions that are put. That is all. This document and its validity will depend upon how it was transcribed by whom and from what source, but until then questions are put fairly to you. You can answer those questions or if you have no recollection of the details then you may so, but to say that I am not going to answer any questions arising from this document, that is not permissible. JUDGE WILSON One of the problems, as I see it, Mr Chairman, is that Mr Bizos has been putting these questions as does this correctly record what you say, but the point the witness has made is, it does not purport to record what he says. This is a summary of what was said and I think, in fairness to the witness, it should be made clear he is not been asked to confirm the wording, but whether the context reflects what he said, not that it is something that he himself said. MR BIZOS Very well. Did you say to Captain Deetliefs that it was decided at the end of 1992 that Kuba would do the shooting? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Right. Did you say to the, to Captain Deetliefs that that was only decided at the end of March? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Can you suggest any possible reason that Mr, Captain Deetliefs would have written "at the end of 1992" if you had told him that it was in March? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not prepared to suggest anything in this ... MR BIZOS No comments. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... connection, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Right. Then can we go to paragraph 22, "A person, Faan Venter, as far as my knowledge goes, moved to Krugersdorp.". Is that right? Did you say that or words to that effect? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I have already testified that it was a fact that Mr Venter moved to ... MR BIZOS Is the answer yes, MR DERBY-LEWIS Krugersdorp on ... MR BIZOS You said words to that effect? MR DERBY-LEWIS ... on other occasions. I have said that. MR BIZOS Yes, let us try and make progress by answering the questions directly, please. "During 1992 or early January 1993 he, Faan Venter, contacted Lewis and went to see him at home. He informed Lewis that he had moved to Krugersdorp and wished to become involved with the CP.". Did you say words to that effect? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, this information in this paragraph is totally incorrect. Mr Venter only moved to Krugersdorp sometime in February and contacted my wife late in February to tell him that he was in Krugersdorp. MR BIZOS So, you say that the time is wrong? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am saying this statement is not correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS The whole of it or is just the January 1993 that is incorrect? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am saying I do not know where Captain Deetliefs got this information from, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS You did not know that he came from Maritzburg? MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not know until he informed me in March when he came to see me. MR BIZOS And is it correct that he came to you and told you that he wanted to be involved in the Conservative Party affairs? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is not in this paragraph. MR BIZOS In paragraph 22. JUDGE WILSON The last sentence. MR DERBY-LEWIS Oh, "by die KP betrokke was". When he saw me in March he did indicate that. MR BIZOS I see. So, again, it is just the time that is wrong. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I think I have replied to the question... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... sufficiently well. MR BIZOS "During February 1993, Lewis contacted Faan Venter telephonically and requested him to come and visit him at home.". Did you say that or words to that effect? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is not correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: "Later in the day if, Lewis' memory does not fail him, Venter visited Lewis at home.". Did you say words to that effect or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is not correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Did Mr Venter not visit you at home? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, that statement is not correct. MR BIZOS I am asking you, as a matter of fact, did Mr Venter not visit you at home? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, the details, in terms of this, are incorrect. Mr Chairman, ... MR BIZOS Please answer the question. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... I have already testified that Mr Venter visited me at home ... MR BIZOS Thank you. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... during March. MR BIZOS Thank you. You say that he did visit you, but it was not in February, but you say that it was in March? MR DERBY-LEWIS Nor did I ... JUDGE WILSON He also says it was not as a result of a telephone call... MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct. JUDGE WILSON ... asking him to come and visit, Mr Bizos. It is a big difference. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct. MR BIZOS Not as a result of a telephone call? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS So, did he, when he did come and visit you, did he not first telephone you ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, ... MR BIZOS ... telephone him? You did not telephone him and you did not, he did not telephone you? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I have already indicated that when he contacted my residence, he got hold of my wife. My wife invited him over. He came in March. MR BIZOS Right. Let us carry on. Did you say words to the effect that, "Lewis had discussed with Venter where he, Lewis, could obtain a pistol"? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I have already testified that when he visited I jokingly requested, because I was not sure of him, I jokingly requested of him as to whether he knew where I could get a weapon and he indicated that he did. MR BIZOS "And the reason why Venter was specifically approached was because he was the most recent person who launched political activities in the area.". MR DERBY-LEWIS That is rubbish, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Well, could you please help me, because I have some difficulty in understanding precisely what it means. What does it mean to you? MR DERBY-LEWIS This statement says clearly, Mr Chairman, "The reason why Venter specifically was approached was because he was the most recent person who launched political activities in the area.". This means nothing to me, Mr Chairman, and it is a lot of rubbish. MR BIZOS Do you not understand it, like me? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, this is rubbish. I have said, ... MR BIZOS So, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... how many times do I have to say that? CHAIRPERSON Let us get on, Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS Yes. "Lewis was specifically asked for an unlicensed firearm." When he came to me in March, I testified already, that is so, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS What reason did you have to believe that he was a person who was capable of supplying you with arms? MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not believe it, Mr Chairman. As I said, I ... CHAIRPERSON He said he cracked a joke. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... I, out of the blue, I asked him that. MR BIZOS Out of? MR DERBY-LEWIS Out of the blue, I jokingly asked him to see whether he perhaps was such a person. MR BIZOS For how long had you known him? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I had not seen him prior to this for some years. I think something like four years. MR BIZOS Despite that, you could trust him fully? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I have already stated that I was very cautious and that is why I put it like that, so that if he started getting serious I could say it was only a joke I made. MR BIZOS I am going to put to you that as in connection with the list, both you and your wife, are not telling the truth in relation to the circumstances of the purpose for which this gun was obtained. MR DERBY-LEWIS That, Mr Chairman, is an untruth. MR BIZOS It is an untruth. Let us just test that. On page R, in pile R4, page 334. MR DERBY-LEWIS First or second portion of R4, Mr Chairman? MR BIZOS R4, page 334. It is the second. MR DERBY-LEWIS Thank you, Mr Chairman. You are there recorded as saying, "I took the firearm for the first time out after arriving from the Cape. I think it was the Saturday, the 3rd of April, the Saturday before the 10th of April. Let me just be sure. I showed it to my wife. She knew I was looking for weapons in case the Government should withdraw the licensed weapons. She just looked and said that it was interesting. I said to my wife that it was an unlicensed firearm. Yes, I said here is an unlicensed firearm. Here I have now made a start.". Did you say that to your wife? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, I did not. That is not correct. MR BIZOS That is not correct. You also give, gave evidence and you say how this gun was delivered to you on the, by innocent people on the pretence that it was a jersey or pullover. MR DERBY-LEWIS That information was included in my application, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. What does this gun weigh? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS More or less. It is a fairly heavy firearm, is it not? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, it is not, Mr Chairman, it was a pistol. Something which one can carry in the hand. MR BIZOS Yes, but there are light ones and there are heavy ones. Which category did this one fall into? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, as far as pistols are concerned, this was a 9mm pistol and did not weigh any more than other 9mm pistols that I know of, except, perhaps, for the pistol I have read about, and that is the Glock one which is constructed out of some composite material. MR BIZOS By all accounts, it could hardly be compared to the weight of a jersey? MR DERBY-LEWIS It was nothing to do with the weight of a jersey, Mr Chairman. The idea was that it had to be wrapped in a jersey. MR BIZOS Yes. You see, I am going to suggest to you, for a number of reasons which may emerge in the evidence more fully later, that you and your wife did not implicate Mr Venter and you tell a highly improbable story of how he came to give you this gun without knowing for what purpose it was going to be used. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, that testimony was delivered by Mr Venter when he was called as a witness to our trial and, in fact, it was on the basis of his testimony that the Judge President of the Witwatersrand decided to indemnify him from any prosecution. So, I assume, he must have believed him. MR BIZOS If we may turn to the application of Mr Walus. He says ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, what bundle, Mr Chairman? MR BIZOS It is at bundle A. MR DERBY-LEWIS Bundle A. MR BIZOS His application, paragraph, page seven, paragraph eight. Yes, Chair, not number, it is the third last from the bottom, Mr Chairman. We numbered ours for my easy identification, Mr Chairman. You take the one line as a paragraph at the bottom of page seven and go back. "Like many others ...", on the right. MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman, I have it. Excuse me. MR BIZOS: "Like many others on the right, he discussed what would be done to stop the de Klerk handover and like many others he laboured, harboured at the time vague plans to halt the de Klerk handover. Some of these discussions occurred with Mr Derby-Lewis and with others in the Conservative Party.". Now, were you aware of any discussions between Mr Derby-Lewis, between yourself - I beg your pardon - between Mr Walus and others in the Conservative Party? I will repeat it for the sake of clarity. Were you aware of any discussions between Mr Walus and with others in the Conservative Party? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, I was not, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Did, do you remember saying that when you heard of the murder you thought that he may have been set up? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I did say that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Who did you think might have set him up? MR DERBY-LEWIS That was a knee-jerk reaction, because I could not... MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MR DERBY-LEWIS It was a knee-jerk reaction on my behalf, Mr Chairman, because I could not believe what I was reading in the media. MR BIZOS But what went through your mind? Who could possibly have set him up if your case is that he and you jointly decided to have Mr Hani killed? Who could have set him up? MR DERBY-LEWIS I had no idea, Mr Chairman. I only expressed that sentiment, because the circumstances surrounding his actions were very strange to me. MR BIZOS But what was so strange when you and he had agreed that you, Hani should be killed? What was strange and what was it that you gave an idea that he was set up? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, when we were planning and discussing the whole matter, during the discussions certain security precautions were discussed. I mean, Walus said he was going to recce Mr Hani's house and he was going to make sure that his car was not seen there too often with false number plates. He was also considering whether he would camouflage himself, because he has a very prominently coloured hair and that would have made him very easily identifiable. So, these were part of the details which he was mentioning to me as part of his planning and that is why, when I saw what happened, that he had not camouflaged his car and that he had not disguised himself and he went in in broad daylight, it was really strange to me. MR BIZOS The circumstances that you mentioned would indicate to you that he did it not in accordance with a plan? MR DERBY-LEWIS Not in accordance with the indications that I had of the way ... MR BIZOS That you had in mind? MR DERBY-LEWIS ... he was going to operate. No, no, that he was going to operate. He had MR BIZOS He was going to ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... carte blanche on the arrangements, yes. MR BIZOS But now, he may have been negligent in his conduct, but why should that have given you the idea that he was set up by anybody. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I could never believe that, with my knowledge of Mr Walus, that he would be negligent in his conduct, ... MR BIZOS Because he is a ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... because ... MR BIZOS Because he is a professional killer or because he had special qualities in relation to the performance of this act? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, because it was totally out of character. MR BIZOS What portion of his character was it out of? MR DERBY-LEWIS He was not a reckless sort of a person, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS He was not? MR DERBY-LEWIS A reckless sort of a person and to me the whole thing ... MR BIZOS How did you know that he would not be reckless about an assassination? MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not know, Mr Chairman, but I still felt that that was strange as to what happened. MR BIZOS Did you, perhaps, ask him whether he had killed anybody before in order to satisfy yourself that he was a fit and proper person chosen to perform the act? MR DERBY-LEWIS On no occasion, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Did you have confidence that he would do a professional job? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I identified him as a steady sort of a person and he was calm and he came across as being competent. MR BIZOS Did you discuss with him whether he had had any military training? MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not, Mr Chairman, but I knew that he was involved with weapons. MR BIZOS He was involved? MR DERBY-LEWIS With weapons. That he had his own weapon and that people use to take their weapons to him on a plot which, I believe, the family owned outside Pretoria, where they actually use to test them and ... MR BIZOS Which persons' weapons were tested on his brother's farm? MR DERBY-LEWIS I do not know, Mr Chairman, ... MR BIZOS Where ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... but I knew that they were tested, because ... MR BIZOS How ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... he told me he had done these tests. MR BIZOS In what context did he tell you that he had tested other peoples' weapons at his brother's farm? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, to the best of my knowledge, ... MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MR DERBY-LEWIS To the best of my knowledge, a very good friend of his testified to that effect in the trial. MR BIZOS No, I asked you what knowledge you had of his ability to carry out this important, to you, important task before he was chosen to commit the deed? MR DERBY-LEWIS I had no reason to doubt him, Mr Chairman. JUDGE NGOEPE Mr Bizos, sorry to interrupt you. Mr Derby-Lewis, the, once you use the words "set up", does that not suggest involvement of other people beyond the two of you? MR DERBY-LEWIS I agree that it suggests that, Mr Chairman, but I had no knowledge of it. CHAIRPERSON Well, it is an amazing term to use in the context of what has happened, is it not? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, it was my immediate reaction upon hearing of the circumstances. JUDGE NGOEPE But on what basis, I think that was the question, to which I am not sure we got an answer. It is one thing to say somebody acted negligently, but it is quite a different thing to suggest the possible involvement of other people, because inherent in the use of the words "set up", as I have already indicated to you, there is a suggestion of involvement by some other people. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman, and I can assure you that on the right, we were almost paranoiac, eventually, in our suspicion of people, because of the extent to which the de Klerk regime had infiltrated the various right wing organisations and perpetrated all sorts of treachery from within those organisations. So, that was, my immediate reaction was, yes, it must be a set up, he would not have done that the way he did it. JUDGE NGOEPE You, did you feel that somebody or some other people might have come to know about the plan or the plot? MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not know, Mr Chairman. I did not know, but I... JUDGE NGOEPE No, I am asking, did you think that somebody could have come to know about that plan? MR DERBY-LEWIS When I saw his ... JUDGE NGOEPE Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... behaviour, I thought it was a possibility, but I knew it was not from my side. That is why I believed that he had been set up. MR BIZOS Did it occur to you that it might have been Mr Faan Venter who knew something? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, Mr Faan Venter knew nothing. MR BIZOS Or Mr Kemp who knew something about the list? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Kemp knew nothing about anything planned between Mr Walus and myself, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Or Mrs Durant or, possibly, her husband that delivered the gun saying that they thought it was a jersey? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, they knew nothing about that. MR BIZOS Or Mr Clarke? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, Mr Clarke was totally not involved. I have testified to the fact that Walus and I planned and did the whole thing together and nobody else knew, Mr Chairman. I specifically protected everybody that I had to approach for assistance, because of the danger of their being arrested and being involved. MR BIZOS Or ... MR DERBY-LEWIS I protected them from by excluding the knowledge from them. MR BIZOS Or a Mr Visser? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Visser? MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS Who is Mr Visser, Mr Chairman? Sorry, is this this chap who is going to testify here about some ridiculous story about a cheque for my legal costs? MR BIZOS Well, once you raise it, perhaps we should look at it. (Disruptive clapping by the audience) MR DERBY-LEWIS Victory, victory George. MR BIZOS He says ... CHAIRPERSON Who are we talking about? MR BIZOS It is a document which was handed to us by the Commission under cover of a letter of the 6th of August 1997, Mr Chairman, with an extract from an application for amnesty by one ... MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, the copy of, the copy is on its way. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, we have no copy. MR BIZOS A copy, Mr Derby-Lewis. Apparently, Mr Visser, is applying for amnesty, among other things, the, number eight, "doelwit diefstal", "JCI pension fund cheque to the value of R3 68/9 182, 65 cent. Account opened by Commandant Roodt and committed by the members.". Who is Commandant Roodt? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Do you know a Commandant Roodt? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure. I have met many people in Krugersdorp and I cannot remember, specifically, this gentleman, but it is possible that I had met him. MR BIZOS Well, try and think how many Roodts' do you know who would have the title of Commandant? MR DERBY-LEWIS As I said, Mr Chairman, I cannot place the gentleman, but it is quite possible that I have met him during the course of my activities in Krugersdorp. CHAIRPERSON You are talking about Commandant Roodt or the man Visser? MR DERBY-LEWIS About Commandant Roodt, yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Well, do you know J M Visser, A J? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure, Mr Chairman. The name does not press a face before me, ... MR BIZOS Well, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... but, as I say, once again, I may know him when I see him. MR BIZOS Well, he will apparently appear in support of this and you will see him and we can, perhaps, take it up then? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is fine, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS But let us concentrate on Commandant Roodt. Do you know a person called Roodt or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS As I said, Mr Chairman, ... CHAIRPERSON He said he knows several people by that name. MR BIZOS Well, tell us who the Roodts are that you know? MR DERBY-LEWIS Fine, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS How many Roodts do you know? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I ... MR BIZOS Let us start with number one. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I do not even ... MR BIZOS Which Roodt do you know? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, please. I have already stated that I am not even sure if I know this Commandant Roodt. I did not talk about the Roodts, I spoke about this Commandant Roodt. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS I do not know whether I know him. MR BIZOS Do you know anybody who prides himself in the name of Roodt? MR DERBY-LEWIS I cannot remember offhand, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS You cannot remember? MR DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS You cannot remember coupling the name Roodt with any person that you can think of at the moment? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS We will look into that ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Good. MR BIZOS ... a little further later. Edwin Clarke, who is Edwin Clarke? MR DERBY-LEWIS Edwin Clarke, Mr Chairman, I know from his willingness to come along to my home and to repair my computer and my wife's computed whenever it developed some sort of a bug or another. MR BIZOS And the person who regularly appears, whose name regularly appears in your wife's diary? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is right, Mr Chairman, in connection with computer matters. MR BIZOS And, at any rate, we hear that he is a bachelor and he use to come for breakfast and other little ... MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman, ... MR BIZOS ... conveniences. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... and he was not the only bachelor who use to come for breakfast. MR BIZOS Yes, well, let us confine ourselves to him and we will look into the others later. "Edwin Clarke received the cheque for the person by the name of Dillus and who worked at JCI.". Now, you see, if this statement is correct, Clarke was not a, just an ordinary person coming for breakfast and looking after the computers, he received a stolen cheque from JCI for the sum of R369 182,56. Have you got any knowledge about that? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, I have not, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Did nobody ever mention this to you? MR DERBY-LEWIS Never, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS We will deal with it later. JUDGE WILSON Was it a stolen cheque, Mr Bizos, or did he ... MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? JUDGE WILSON Was it a stolen cheque or did Mr Clarke steal it? MR BIZOS No, it was a ... JUDGE WILSON "Mr Clarke then decided to use the funds.". It appears Mr Clarke decided not to pay the money to where it should have gone, but to use it for some other purpose. MR BIZOS The rest of it shows that, well, I take the point, but for my purposes either interpretation is correct, but thank you Mr Chairman. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I have no objection, whatsoever, to Mr Bizos producing this document and questioning me regarding this, what appears in this document. No objection whatsoever. MR BIZOS Thank you Mr Derby-Lewis. Now, he is a person who either received a cheque or the proceeds of the cheque. You know nothing about that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Nothing at all, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS "These funds would originally go to the Volksvront for the purchase of two-way radios.". Did you know anything about that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, if my memory serves me correctly, the Volksvront was formed after my arrest. So, I do not know how that could possibly be true and I certainly have no knowledge of it. MR BIZOS You did not know about anybody wanting to use stolen money for two-way radios? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: "Mr Clarke then decided to utilise the funds for the legal costs of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis.". You do not know anything about that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Nothing, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS "As already known to the Committee, he applies for amnesty for the murder on Mr Chris Hani of the ANC." MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes, that is correct. "I personally was against the murder of Mr Hani, because we had positive information that Mr Hani and Mrs Winnie Mandela wished to establish together a political party.". Now, if this is correct, it would appear that this Mr Visser knew about the talk or plans to kill Mr Hani. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Visser knew nothing about plans to kill Mr Hani, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS I see and he says that he was against it. Did anybody, did you get knowledge of anybody in the, among the rightists that they were against the murder of Hani for the reasons stated by Mr Visser? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, he said "ek, persoonlik", Mr Chairman. He did not say anything about the right. MR BIZOS And that there were, at least, it is clear that there were discussions? MR DERBY-LEWIS Would he discuss this matter with himself. Is that what Mr Bizos is suggesting, Mr Chairman? MR BIZOS Oh, no, what I am suggesting is that the statement clearly indicates that there may have been, there must have been discussions if he expressed that he was against this for the reasons that he states. MR DERBY-LEWIS I cannot comment on that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS: "It would have the effect that particularly the youth would vote for them. I reported to Commandant Roodt to this effect. Roodt then also, himself, took control of this operation and saw to it that the funds would not go to Mr Clive Derby-Lewis.". Do you know anything about that? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Now, do you say that this, was it generally known that Mr Clarke was a regular visitor to your house to persons such as Mr Visser and others in right wing circles? MR DERBY-LEWIS I had no idea of any connection that Mr Clarke had with anybody, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS "Mr Chris Hani was murdered on 10 April 1992.". MR DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, Mr Chairman, I would like to draw the Committee's attention to the fact that Mr Bizos has conveniently missed one sentence here. After the sentence which says, "Roodt himself took control of this operation and saw to it that the funds did not go to Mr Clive Derby-Lewis.", and then the next sentence is, "the cheque was originally banked on 30 March 1993." MR BIZOS I am sorry, please assure, let me assure you that I am going to ask you lots of questions about that and I did not leave it out deliberately. I had a mark and I thought that I had read it, but let me ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Thank you. MR BIZOS ... let me come. MR DERBY-LEWIS Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. Clive-Derby Lewis, "The cheque was originally banked on 30 March 1993.". You know nothing about that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I, my question is that if this cheque was supposed to cover my legal costs and it was banked on the 30th of March 1993, how would they know I was going to incur any legal costs? MR BIZOS Well, you may, well let me ask you this, did you not think of the possibility that Mr Walus may be arrested? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, because ... MR BIZOS And did you not think of the possibility that you may be arrested? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, that was the reason for restricting the information to two people, Walus and myself. MR BIZOS Yes and what was Mr Walus' financial position at that time? MR DERBY-LEWIS I have no idea, Mr Chairman. I never discussed it with him. MR BIZOS Was he going to be compensated in any way for his successful act? MR DERBY-LEWIS By me, Mr Chairman? I had nothing to compensate him with. Everyone knows my financial position quite well. MR BIZOS But people who stole money for the cause might have made some available? MR DERBY-LEWIS But, Mr Chairman, that has not been proved and there is no connection, whatsoever, been proved between this money and myself. MR BIZOS Well, do not let us anticipate the proof at this stage. MR DERBY-LEWIS It is outrageous. MR BIZOS Was it a coincidence, was it if, in fact, Mr Clarke was in some way involved in this and he was the person who had something to do with this large sum of stolen money, is it a mere coincidence that he was a very good friend of yours and your wife's and regularly came to your house, apparently, by appointment noted in your wife's diary? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, Mr Clarke knew nothing about what was planned for Mr Hani. MR BIZOS Was he a member of the Conservative Party? MR DERBY-LEWIS Not as far as I know, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Was he a member of any political organisation? MR DERBY-LEWIS I have, I do not know, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Did he express any political views to you? MR DERBY-LEWIS Quite openly, supportive of the Conservative Party, yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Supportive of the and one of the right wing people? MR DERBY-LEWIS Obviously. MR BIZOS Was, when you say that you and Walus discussed the gravity of the situation, was he one of the right wing people with whom you discussed the gravity of the situation? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, he was not. MR BIZOS Why not? MR DERBY-LEWIS Because, Mr Chairman, he just was not there. When Mr Walus used to come and visit me he use to specifically come and visit me to have a discussion with me, not with other people. MR BIZOS How did you know that, how did he exhibit his support for the Conservative Party? MR DERBY-LEWIS Who, Mr Chairman? MR BIZOS Mr Clarke. MR DERBY-LEWIS Oh, Mr Clarke expressed the same sentiments as I did when we had discussions. MR BIZOS Well, please tell us what he said that it was, that he said in support of the Conservative Party. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I cannot recall specific statements. CHAIRPERSON I think that, you know, in the course of numerous conversations one gathers ... MR BIZOS Ones feelings. CHAIRPERSON ... ones sympathy for a cause. That may be so. MR BIZOS I will accept that. CHAIRPERSON I think it will be unrealistic to ask him to explain all that now, Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS I will accept that, Mr Chairman. MR DERBY-LEWIS Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Now, he says, "Commandant Roodt and I, ourselves only heard of the murder on the evening of the 10th of April 1992. There was no collaboration among the AWB and/or the Volksvront to murder Mr Chris Hani. Our suspicion was that Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, himself, orchestrated the attack on Mr Hani himself.". Now, did you orchestrate the murder of Mr Hani? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I do not know what date Mr Visser submitted his application, but I assume it was some time after the whole episode had been very well aired in the media and it had become patently clear that I was involved with the Hani assassination ... MR BIZOS Yes, I am actually ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... and, also, I, it may even be that he submitted this after I was found guilty ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... and that would be a perfectly ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... reasonable state where anyone had that knowledge. MR BIZOS No, I was just wondering whether you could throw any light why he uses the word "orchestrate" which, you know, in order to orchestrate something you need a few number, quite a number of people to orchestrate? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, he says here, "Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, himself, had orchestrated the attack on Mr Hani.". Yes, he did not talk about a number of people orchestrating. ADV BIZOS No. MR DERBY-LEWIS I think about me ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... or is that not your question? Am I misunderstanding ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... the question? MR BIZOS Yes, perhaps, I did not make it very clear. MR DERBY-LEWIS Please. MR BIZOS The person who orchestrates needs an orchestra. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I do not know why Mr Visser made this statement, because Mr Visser had no knowledge whatsoever of anything ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... regarding me or my affairs, except maybe that I was an active representative of the Conservative Party and the right. MR BIZOS Now, I want to show you the original letter, "Geagte Kolonel"? Is this it? JUDGE WILSON Before you go on, should we call this R9? I do not think you have given it a number. MR BIZOS Incidentally, Mr Chairman, we have asked the Commission to make available the full application for amnesty of Mr Visser and, apparently, steps are being taken to get the permission of such persons, as may be concerned, for us to get it so that we can get the full background of this matter. Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to show you the original letter. Perhaps members of the Committee should have a look at it and also to have a look on the, at the endorsement at the back of it, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please. MR BIZOS I would like the witness to see it after the Committee members have seen it. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am aware of the details contained on the reverse of the letter. MR BIZOS Would you read out the handwriting at the back of that letter please. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chair, it reads as follows "This letter was ...", MR BIZOS Gewone. MR DERBY-LEWIS Something "pos". MR BIZOS Ordinary post. MR DERBY-LEWIS Oh, normale, dankie mnr die Voorsitter, deur normale, it is very badly written, it is the normal post, "... was received by normal post on 93/05/21". There is a signature which confirms, which has been confirmed as the signature of a certain UW or UDC somebody. MR BIZOS Yes. He is a Colonel. MR DERBY-LEWIS He is a Colonel, Mr Chairman. A full Colonel, yes. MR BIZOS He is the Colonel that came and arrested you? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS He is the head of the Murder and Robbery Squad that investigated your case? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And you wrote that letter and posted it to Colonel Human? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I just want to correct one thing which may be misinterpreted here. Mr Bizos has said that he was head of the investigation which investigated the murder case. He was in his capacity as head of the Murder and Robbery Squad, but the investigation under Section 29 was carried out totally by members of the security branch. There were never any members of the East Rand Murder and Robbery Squad involved in the investigation. MR BIZOS He was the head of the Murder and Robbery Squad ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Correct. MR BIZOS ... that investigated whether you and your wife and Mr Walus were guilty of murder. MR DERBY-LEWIS And out of whose care I was taken, Mr Chairman, when I was placed under Section 29 control. MR BIZOS Now, it was to him that you wrote the letter and not to the uniformed branch. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, my knowledge of military protocol and uniform protocol indicates to me that when one writes a letter, one writes a letter to the senior officer involved at a specific station. Colonel Roos, although it is not clear from here, Colonel Roos was actually a Lieutenant-Colonel, but is entitled to be referred to as Colonel, but the senior officer at the East Rand Murder and Robbery Squad is a Colonel, a full Colonel, namely Colonel Human and that is why I wrote to him, but, Mr Chairman, I want to say also, that I had very little to do with Colonel Human's team on the Murder and Robbery Squad. MR BIZOS Let us deal with one matter at a time, Mr Derby-Lewis. You said that you wrote that letter to Colonel Roos. That evidence was incorrect. MR PRINSLOO OBJECTS MR PRINSLOO In fact, Mr Chairman, it is not correct what Mr Bizos is putting. He says he wrote to the officer in the uniform. That is how I interpret the military procedure and he said Colonel Roos, he referred to Colonel Roos. He is still saying that. CHAIRPERSON There should be no doubt about he intended to write to, surely. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I was directing my remarks... CHAIRPERSON To Colonel Roos. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... to Colonel Roos, obviously. MR BIZOS Why did you send it to Colonel Human, who received it, and in accordance with practice, put the stamp of his office there and when it was received and how it came to be with him? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am not aware of the administrative arrangements, but it was addressed to him as the senior officer and it was... MR BIZOS Addressed to whom? MR DERBY-LEWIS ... and, Mr Chairman, let me state categorically, that the comments that I have here are equally applicable to Colonel Human and his team. They are equally applicable to them, but I was not under their care either when I was under Section 29. I was under the care of the security branch in a completely different situation. CHAIRPERSON That is really not relevant as to where you were at the time. You were trying to express your thoughts about what had happened while you were under the control ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Specifically to Colonel Roos. CHAIRPERSON ... of Colonel Roos or Colonel Human. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct. Yes, but I could not write to Colonel Roos, because he was not the Commanding Officer of the depot, Mr Chairman. Courtesy demands ... JUDGE WILSON Was he not the commanding officer of the station? MR DERBY-LEWIS He was the Commanding Officer of the station, yes Sir. MR BIZOS Just look at the stamp, where was he stationed? Look at the back. MR DERBY-LEWIS South African Police, Commanding Officer. MR BIZOS Where? MR DERBY-LEWIS East Rand Murder and Robbery Squad. MR BIZOS Where is his office? MR DERBY-LEWIS It does not say here, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Was he the Station Commander in Benoni where you were held? MR DERBY-LEWIS He was the head of the Benoni police operation, as I saw it. MR BIZOS Was his office in Benoni where you were held? MR DERBY-LEWIS His office was in Benoni, yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Subject to correction, the headquarters of the Murder and Robbery Squad, my memory, unfortunately I cannot check it with Mr ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Holmes. MR BIZOS ... Holmes who was here and, unfortunately, had to go away on an appointment, was in Brakpan and not in Benoni at all. MR DERBY-LEWIS Well, I was not aware of that, Mr Chairman, at any time and nor was I made aware of that. I and, Mr Chairman, I was, Colonel Human has a very large office at the Benoni police structure and his office and the office of Lieutenant-Colonel Roos are in exactly the same building. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, you can perhaps tell us, what is the significance of all this? MR BIZOS Well, in order to rebut, Mr Chairman, the suggestion that the statements were freely and voluntarily made. You were told, Mr Chairman, that a letter was, when the letter was produced that it was addressed to the uniform branch, Mr, Colonel Roos, who had nothing to do with the investigation of the case. This letter shows that it was received by Colonel Human, who was the head of the Murder and Robbery Squad and had to do much, from the time of his arrest to the time of his conviction, with the investigation of the case. That is the point, Mr Chairman. MR PRINSLOO OBJECTS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, it is also important to note that Colonel van Niekerk was in charge of the security branch and he was not attached to Benoni at all, or his team. Colonel van Niekerk was responsible for the men under his control which detained the applicant in terms of Section 29 of the Act. CHAIRPERSON Well, anyway, the significance of it all is something that, yes, yes. MR BIZOS The only point we wanted to make was that when Colonel Roos was singled out as the person to whom it was sent, that the evidence was not correct. That is the only point that I want to make. CHAIRPERSON Well, now, you know, this case has taken such a lot of time and I would urge you to deal with points that are, you know, really of some significance to ... MR BIZOS We will do that. CHAIRPERSON ... to the real issues. MR BIZOS We will do that and I am going on to ... CHAIRPERSON Please. MR BIZOS ... the next point. CHAIRPERSON Please. MR DERBY-LEWIS Does Mr Bizos require the letter back? MR BIZOS I would like to put it in, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Please, do hand it in. What would be the exhibit number, R10. Mr Bizos, this might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment. MR BIZOS Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON This letter will go in as EXHIBIT R10. We will now adjourn and resume. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS (Still under affirmation). MR BIZOS What I have to put to you in relation to your allegation that you made statements under duress and I would like to refer you to your hand written statement, your own hand written statement, where is it, appearing in R4, I just want to get the page, yes. Yes, will you please have a look at R4, page 27 to page 53. You got that? Is that in your own handwriting? MR DERBY-LEWIS It is in my handwriting, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Were you given paper on the 20th of April and did you hand over the completed document in your own handwriting on the 27th? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I do not recall been given paper on the 20th, but I was given paper for the purpose of writing this document. MR BIZOS It was not the 20th, when do you say it was? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Well, if I were to suggest to you that it was the 20th and that you handed it in on the 27th, are you in a position to deny it? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I cannot see it taking me a week to write this. That is why I am in doubt as to when I commenced writing it. MR BIZOS Well, according to notes made by Mr Deetliefs, you were given paper at 09H35 on the 20th and you returned it or you gave it to Beeker who gave it to, you gave it to Mr Beeker at 00H20 on the 27th of the fourth 93, according to the notes made at the time. In view of those notes, are you prepared to accept that that is more or less correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, because I would not give it to him at 00H20 in the morning. MR BIZOS Just past midnight, anyway. MR DERBY-LEWIS No, definitely not, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Anyway, did you have ample opportunity to write out your statement on the paper that was given to you? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, during the interrogation and the writing of the statement, was a lot of discussion and debate regarding what should be included in the statement and what should not be included. You will recall that I testified that at the beginning, Colonel van Niekerk said to me that I must write what they want me to write, because if they are not satisfied with the statement, they will not accept it. MR BIZOS Yes. Did you write the statement in your cell or in the presence of the police? MR DERBY-LEWIS As far as I remember, Mr Chairman, it was in my cell. MR BIZOS In your cell and is this in your usual handwriting? MR DERBY-LEWIS Well, it is a bit larger than my usual handwriting. MR BIZOS I beg your pardon? MR DERBY-LEWIS It is a bit larger than my usual handwriting. MR BIZOS A bit larger? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Oh, is that, you wrote it a lot more largely so that it can be more clearly read? MR DERBY-LEWIS I do not know, Mr Chairman, but it is larger. MR BIZOS I see. MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS But, would you agree, as you look at it, that it looks to be a neat and legible handwriting without any, well, certainly, it does not look as if it was written by a man who was exhausted and did not know what he was writing? Let us come directly to the point. It does not look like a statement written by a person who has been ill-treated, who has, who is exhausted and who was under pressure to write it? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am not qualified to ... MR BIZOS Oh, yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... state how a statement looks made by somebody who is under duress and who, how a statement does not look. MR BIZOS If we have a look at ordinary writing of yours can we expect any material differences which would indicate to the Committee that you were under duress when you wrote this statement out? MR DERBY-LEWIS Well, Mr Chairman, if you look at page three, excuse me, there are at least three scratchings out. MR BIZOS Yes, well, that is on one ... MR DERBY-LEWIS And ... MR BIZOS ... page and I ... MR DERBY-LEWIS And ... MR BIZOS ... think there may be one or two other pages where there are scratching outs. Is that, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS That is ... MR BIZOS ... you are saying that that does not happen with people who are comfortable, who have written a statement as long as this and there are a small number of alterations? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am, you asked me if there is anything to indicate that this was under duress. If I was taking my time I would not have made mistakes that needed to be scratched out, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Oh, I see, yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS And altered and some even ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... accentuated to make it clearer on page ... MR BIZOS Well, I put ... MR DERBY-LEWIS 31. MR BIZOS ... to you what we are going to argue. I want to give you an opportunity to deal with it and you have. MR PRINSLOO OBJECTS MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, before my learned friend proceeds, I am referring to page 340, R4 continued, paragraph 40, statement of Captain Deetliefs, where he states, "On Friday, 23 April 1993 during the course of the day, I visited Clive Derby-Lewis in his cell. I handed over to him folio paper as requested on Tuesday 20 April.". Not, it was not given to him on the 20th of April as put to the applicant by Mr Derby-Lewis. It is incorrect, Mr Chairman. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Bizos. MR PRINSLOO By Mr Bizos, I beg your pardon. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is why, in fact, I queried when I started, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS It may be, yes, but I will, I just want to get the date. MR DERBY-LEWIS Page 340. MR PRINSLOO It is page 340, Mr Chairman, paragraph 40. MR BIZOS Mr Chairman, we want to see the date. Anyway, be that as it may, you say that you ... JUDGE WILSON There is the 23rd of April at the beginning and end of the paragraph concerned. MR BIZOS I beg your pardon. I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON Paragraph 40 refers to the date at the beginning of that paragraph as being 23rd of April 1993. MR BIZOS Yes, well, be that as it may, it, I appreciate that it is a point that has to be dealt with and we are indebted to our learned friends for drawing attention to it, but you had an opportunity to write the statement in the cell. What I want to ask you is this, were the police interested in you signing the document purporting to be the truth? MR DERBY-LEWIS That was the agreement with, which ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... produced this statement, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS That was the agreement, yes, and you say that you signed this and merely to indicate whether there were alterations on a page or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS On this particular statement? MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman, that was what Captain Deetliefs asked me to do. MR BIZOS He asked you ... MR DERBY-LEWIS He said he did not want a signature, he did not want to, to commit, me to commit myself at this stage, I must just go through this, check that there are no mistakes or alterations and if there are, sign them and otherwise certify there are no alterations. MR BIZOS I am going to put to you that you signed it, because you wanted to indicate that you agreed with the contents and in order that there may not be suggestions that you, that anything was altered in your statement, you added no alterations or alterations. What would have been the value of a statement to Mr Deetliefs or to anyone else without you signing that you spoke the truth in it? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I explained why this word, these words "no alterations" were included on every page. If I had wanted to say "contents correct" I would have written exactly that, Mr Chairman, "contacts correct, "contents correct" and signed it. Why would I talk about alterations if I was going to confirm the contents? MR BIZOS So, you actually are telling us that whoever received your statement was satisfied with a signature only certifying whether there were alterations or not ... MR DERBY-LEWIS That is ... MR BIZOS ... on a particular page ... MR DERBY-LEWIS That is ... MR BIZOS ... and was not interested whether you had told them the truth or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. Why would I initial the alterations where they were? MR BIZOS Well, I have put to you why you did it and I am going to put to you that this suggestion that they were not interested for you to certify by your signature that it was the truth, is an answer which is, borders on your having lost sight of reality, Mr Derby-Lewis. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, why then would they produce another nicely typed statement with a space for me to sign and then allow my attorney to come in, to ensure that the thing is signed as a confession before a magistrate, if they were happy with this one? MR BIZOS The question is whether you purported to write the truth or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, that is not the question. The question was ... MR BIZOS The question was ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... regarding the validity of this statement. MR BIZOS I am asking you whether you purported to have written the truth in this statement or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS I explained, Mr Chairman, ... MR BIZOS Did you ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... that I, Mr Chairman, I have already made a statement regarding this statement in its typed form wherein I stated that the circumstances around the list I included, because I wanted to protect my wife and the fact that the police accepted it as the final statement, is an indication that they were satisfied with that as well. In fact, they, to me that confirmed that they did not really believe that my wife was involved and that is why they did not press the matter. MR BIZOS Did you purport to write truth in this statement? MR DERBY-LEWIS I said I did, Mr Chairman, with that exception. MR BIZOS Right. You purported to right the truth with an exception, did you say? What was that exception or exceptions? MR DERBY-LEWIS I refer here to the typed version of this, Mr Chairman, ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... which is on page 65, regarding the list of names. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS Paragraph 44. MR BIZOS You deliberately lied in your written statement, in your own handwriting in relation to that whilst you were being coerced by the police? MR DERBY-LEWIS I have already testified to that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Is that the correct summary of your testimony, yes or no? MR DERBY-LEWIS I have already testified as to what extent this is correct. It, with the exception ... MR BIZOS Mr Derby-Lewis, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... of those paragraphs, ... MR BIZOS Mr Derby-Lewis, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, it is correct. MR BIZOS ... I will have, with the permission of the Chairman of the Committee, an answer to my question. Did you purport to tell the truth with certain exceptions and did you lie to the police despite the pressure that there was put on you? What is the answer to that question? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, I did in this instance, Mr Chairman, ... MR BIZOS Right. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... yes. MR BIZOS If you managed to lie and held out with your untruths, how great was the pressure that, you say, was imposed on you? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I want to also recall that this was not under oath that this was done. That is the first point I want to make and I want to say, secondly, that at that stage the pressure was off. At that stage the pressure was off, because we had already reached agreement on the contents of the statement. They had then said to me, here is the paper, go and sit down, ... MR BIZOS So, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... Deetliefs testified to that effect, and go and sit down and write it out and we will get it before a magistrate and we will accept this statement as is. MR BIZOS So that, and you said yes and you said yes, because at that stage there was no pressure anymore on you? MR DERBY-LEWIS At that stage, yes. MR BIZOS Yes. So, you accepted to sign a statement at a time when there was no longer any pressure? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, yes, that is correct, the pressure had been removed because of my acceptance. MR BIZOS Yes. Thank you Mr Derby-Lewis. I do not think that I have to take that point any further. Now, in relation to your detention, did you see your attorneys? MR DERBY-LEWIS In relation to my detention? MR BIZOS Yes. As soon as your detention, well, first of all, you saw your attorneys in order to oppose the application for the extension of the period of detention. MR DERBY-LEWIS Correct. Excuse me. MR BIZOS Did you tell your attorneys, at that time, that you had been coerced to make any statements? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. That is why my advocate, at the end of my detention period, got me to produce the statement which is part of the evidence. I do not know what ... MR BIZOS For how long did you see your attorney when you gave instructions to oppose the application to extend the period of detention? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure, Mr Chairman. I am not sure. MR BIZOS You knew that unlike the unfortunate detainees under Section 6 and under Section 29 in the pre-90 days, that your affidavit would go before a judge and that you would be represented by counsel and that you would be given a hearing as to whether your detention should be extended or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS You mean when we tried to oppose the application? MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS In the representations that you made to the court not to extend your Section 29 detention, did you say that you had been ill-treated whilst in the, whilst you were in detention? MR DERBY-LEWIS I cannot recall, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Do you recall whether you complained to your attorneys, at that time, and say, look, here is an opportunity for you to put in the affidavit so that it may become publicly known that I have been ill-treated and, also, that I fear that if my detention is extended, I will suffer more from these, to use your wife's words outside these proceedings, by these torturers? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, at that stage, the pressure had been stopped. So, there was no reason to complain about that. The intention was to oppose the extension, because there was no reason for the extension. MR BIZOS Mr Derby-Lewis, ... CHAIRPERSON The answer is no. In that application before the court he did not mention there was pressure on him. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, no, I said that, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. Bear with me for just a short while. JUDGE WILSON When did you make this statement, the 20th? MR DERBY-LEWIS Which one, Mr Chairman? JUDGE WILSON The one we are talking about. MR DERBY-LEWIS The hand written one? JUDGE WILSON The hand written one. MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman, apparently it was finalised on the 27th ... JUDGE WILSON 27th. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... of April. It started, the pressure started on the 20th in terms of Section 29, the real pressure. Until then I was even allowed to see my family that weekend and the impression was created that I was being taken care of and nobody had to worry about me and then on Monday morning, early, when nobody could do anything about it, that is when they sprung the Section 29 on me. MR BIZOS Do you agree that no complaint was voiced by your attorneys or counsel? MR DERBY-LEWIS As far as I know, there was no complaint at that stage. MR BIZOS Even though the pressure started as soon as you were converted from a criminal procedure detainee to a Section 29 detainee? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I do not know whether there was any relevance in terms of the further application, because at that stage the pressure was off. MR BIZOS When did the pressure start? Let us just get that clear. MR DERBY-LEWIS The pressure started on the 17th of April when I was arrested. MR BIZOS Yes and, obviously, that was before you made, you saw your attorneys in order to oppose the extension? MR DERBY-LEWIS I beg your pardon. Yes. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS That was my initial arrest. MR BIZOS Yes, yes. Now, I want to read to you a newspaper cutting which may or may not have come to your attention, published on the 2nd of May 1993. This may have been whilst you and your wife, when was your wife arrested? MR DERBY-LEWIS On the 21st I think, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS 21st, Yes. So probably, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS The 23rd, no ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... you were probably in detention at, on the 2nd of May 1993. MR DERBY-LEWIS I was, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS I want you to comment on a statement made. I will, we will hand in a copy, Mr Chairman. It is headed, "Was the overbearing Gaye Derby-Lewis playing Lady Macbeth to her ambitious husband.", and I merely do that for the purposes of identification, but what I am concerned about is this, "Her husband became a MP in 1987 forging a reputation in Parliament where even his CP colleagues strove to keep up with him to keep up civil appearances as an inveterate racist. Andries Beyers, a senior CP official at the time said, "I think sometimes he became an embarrassment to us. He was a complex, difficult character, very, very hard line. He had a calling to bring English speakers to the CP, but his personal style actually put them off." He lost his Parliamentary seat in 1989, Whites only election, at which point he decided, without abandoning his role as a self-appointed leader of the English speaking South African ultra-right to consolidate friendships elsewhere. One of these friends was David Irving, the controversial British historian, famous for his Hitler sympathies.". Now, I do not want, I do not expect you to admit this, but who was Mr Beyers? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, Mr Beyers was a man who had been, who left the party at that stage. He was a man who had an axe to grind with me, because I saw through him long before anyone else in the CP in terms of what he was using the Conservative Party for his own personal affairs. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is what he was. He was a, as far as I was concerned, he was an outcast and he still is. He is a member, he is actually, Mr Chairman, he is an elected member of the National Party now. He has jumped from the National Party to the HNP to the CP to the Afrikaner Volks Unie and from there he has gone back to the National Party. So, I think that gives an indication of the integrity of the man. MR BIZOS He was the ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Excuse me. MR BIZOS ... Secretary of the Conservative Party from when to when? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure of the exact dates, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Try and be of assistance to us, please. Was it during the period that you were a Member of Parliament? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, it was, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS And was he the Secretary of the Conservative Party whilst you were in the ... MR DERBY-LEWIS President's Council. MR BIZOS ... in the President's Council? MR DERBY-LEWIS Not for all of the time, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Not all the time, but some of the time? MR DERBY-LEWIS Possibly, yes. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure exactly when he ... MR BIZOS Now, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS No, it was, definitely. MR BIZOS ... according to the statement, he had a low opinion of you and you, apparently, share that about him. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS The Committee is not interested in the rights and wrongs of that situation, Mr Derby-Lewis, but you yourself must also have made your views, if not generally known, at least the relationship between you, at best was, cold and correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS Fragile. MR BIZOS Fragile and cold and correct, to use diplomatic terms? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is debatable, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes. Now, he was the General Secretary of a political party, is the next most important person in the party after the leader, is he not? MR DERBY-LEWIS Not in the Conservative Party, no, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Well, is he the third most important person? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, he is responsible for party organisation. MR BIZOS Yes, well, let us see in the hierarchy. There is the leader, there is the deputy-leader and then, presumably, the Treasurer or the Secretary between the two of them, they must be high up in the hierarchy. MR DERBY-LEWIS That is not correct, Mr Chairman. I think Mr Bizos must familiarise himself about the CP. The CP was, in fact, a very democratic party and the party was not controlled in a dictatorial manner similar to the National Party. We learnt our lessons from them and that is not the structure that you are describing... MR BIZOS ... and I will read the portion out, Mr Derby-Lewis, and ask you. "When the decision was made to bar my entourage from entering the Krugersdorp Centenary Hall, it was made because they were Black. The Conservative Party had taken action against Blacks using the facilities of towns which the CP controls. Blacks, because they are Black, that we are talking about. Mr Derby-Lewis plays with words, hypocritically. Having the right to place conditions on the use of the City Hall is one thing. Nobody disputes that the City Council has the right to do so in the sense that it commands the decision-making machinery which can make such decision. Were I a White, I and my entourage would not even have to receive City Council permission to be in the City Hall. It is sheer naked racism which is applied against us. I want to assure Mr Derby-Lewis that when we in KwaZulu could possibly be facing conditions on visits to this region, they will not be decided on with any regard whatsoever being paid to race.". Now, what do you say about this allegation by Mr Buthulezi? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, Mr Bizos has not even given us an indication of the date of that article, regardless of not giving us a copy. Could he please tell me when that article appeared. MR BIZOS I think, with respect to myself, that I did say it was the 3rd of May 1989, but I will not take umbrage at it, but you have heard what it was, what was said, if this is what was said, what do you say about it? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, if I missed the date and Mr Bizos said it, I apologise. MR BIZOS Thank you. MR DERBY-LEWIS I did not hear it. MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS But as far as that report is concerned, Mr Chairman, it was not my decision to prevent Dr Buthulezi's entourage from taking over the hall mentioned in terms of that article. As far as my memory serves me, and this is now going back something like eight years, Mr Chairman, as far as my memory serves me, it was the Town Council of Krugersdorp that took that decision and, also, once again relying on my memory, Mr Chairman, I believe that the decision was taken because the Council involved felt affronted by Dr Buthulezi that he believed that he could come to a council building in Krugersdorp and that the council, itself, would not be able to look after his security. I think that was the basis for that report. Now, Mr Chairman, there is a lot of stuff which Mr Bizos read out there. Can you just please repeat the part that you want... MR BIZOS Well, you have dealt with the one allegation. The other allegation I will summarise for you. MR DERBY-LEWIS Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Was that your Conservative Party prevented Black people from making use of council facilities. Was that true or not? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, those were the laws at the time. They were only acting in conformity with the laws. MR BIZOS In the towns in which the Conservative Party had a majority, Blacks could not use the library. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, in, to the best of my knowledge, in a lot of councils where the CP did not have even a representative, the same situation prevailed. I do not know why Mr Bizos is singling out the Conservative Party for this. MR BIZOS No, I am talking about the Conservative Party that did not allow people to go into the town library. Is that correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. So did the National Party, so did other political parties. MR BIZOS I do not know whether that was so, but even if it was, let us just deal with the Conservative Party today. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, I thought you were setting out to show that Mr Derby-Lewis was a racialist? MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now you are pointing the fact that it is the Conservative Party that was racialist. MR BIZOS Yes, well ... CHAIRPERSON Could you not just confine your ... MR BIZOS To ... CHAIRPERSON ... criticism to Mr Derby-Lewis. MR BIZOS Yes, I will do that, Mr Chairman. This will go in as another exhibit. It will be ... CHAIRPERSON EXHIBIT R13. MR BIZOS R13. Thank you, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Have you changed the number of the letter from R11 to R12, because I have changed the number on your R11 to R12. MR BIZOS As it pleases. CHAIRPERSON Yes. JUDGE WILSON To put it in proper context. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, the actual ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, sorry, Mr Chairman, before, I have just been handed a copy of R12. May I just obtain the Committee's opinion on this. I have been told that while I am under cross-examination, I am not allowed to consult with anybody regarding the matters on which I am being cross-examined. Now, Mr Chairman, this document I did not draw up and I will need to consult somebody to find out the exact detail of the background of this letter. Am I entitled to do that? CHAIRPERSON Which document are you talking about? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am talking about R12, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON That was the document that was obtained from your wife's computer? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is correct, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Well, now, I do not think you have denied that it came from your wife's computer, have you? MR DERBY-LEWIS This does not come from my wife's computer, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Oh. MR DERBY-LEWIS It is obviously not a computer produced, in fact, it looks to me like a typewriter. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS So, I, it is, unless I may be wrong, it may be the printer that was used to produce this, produces another typeface, but this is not the typeface of my wife or my own computer which is produced by the printer. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS I know, I am aware of the printer. MR BIZOS May I ... MR DERBY-LEWIS That is why. MR BIZOS May I suggest, Mr Chairman, that before he is re-examined, I am sure that his counsel can ask Mrs Derby-Lewis where it comes from or not. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, ... CHAIRPERSON Are you in a position to say, Mr Bizos, whether that document comes from the computer or whether it was a document typed by somebody in the police? MR BIZOS We were told that it was printed out of Mrs Derby-Lewis' computer. This is what we were told. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Well, now, you will have an opportunity to deal with this ... MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON ... and consult with your counsel once the cross-examination is over. JUDGE WILSON Did the handwritten bit also come out of the computer? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS Which handwritten portion, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON "Not such a good friend". MR BIZOS Let me just clarify the position. The computer was taken away and there was a hard drive. It comes out of the hard drive found in Mrs Derby-Lewis' computer and printed on the Police printer. No, that is my handwriting, Mr Chairman. JUDGE WILSON Oh, so you are writing comments on documents that you are handing in as exhibits. I do not think you should, Mr Bizos. MR BIZOS It was the only copy that I had, Mr Chairman. I apologise. Please ignore my, the marginal note that I made. Had I noticed it, I would have scratched it out, Mr Chairman. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, with respect, may I just make one comment regarding this? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS I must express my surprise that the SAP are still in possession of documents which belong to my wife after she was found not guilty of any crime by the Supreme Court of the Witwatersrand, and I query the motives and if this is part of the continued pressuring of us, Mr Chairman, then I want to express my strongest disapproval of this. I do not think this is acceptable behaviour. CHAIRPERSON Well, I think it is a matter that can be raised with the authorities and that is the police from whose files this document has been obtained. That is a matter between you or your wife, rather, and the police. She is entitled to demand everything that belongs to her which they have taken away. MR DERBY-LEWIS Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Can we proceed? MR BIZOS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, Mr Chairman, I am still waiting to see the statement that Mr Bizos is using regarding Dr Buthulezi or is that finished now? MR BIZOS That is finished. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS It is being copied and you will get a copy and if you want to say anything about it in re-examination you will have ample opportunity. MR DERBY-LEWIS Okay, Mr Chairman, thank you. MR BIZOS You, have you had an opportunity of looking at R5, which is the statement of Mr Jerome Cronin with annexures? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I must state that I received it together with R4, but I have not had an opportunity to have a look at it, because I have been, obviously, been involved with more pressing matters and I believed that the time for that would come when the time arrives for witnesses to be cross-examined and I could then prepare myself at the stage. MR BIZOS Well, what I want to put to you in general terms is this, that this statement has annexures attached to it of public statements made by Mr Chris Hani at various functions from 1991 to shortly before his death and what I want to put to you is that this public record of Mr Hani's utterances are completely in conflict with the picture that you and the applicant, the first applicant tried to paint of Mr Hani. Did you bother, from 1991 to 1993, to read or inform yourself what the position of Mr Hani was in relation to the future of South Africa? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, the perception that I had of Mr Hani I obtained from the media which I, with which I am familiar. I do not know whether that documentation contains references from them or whether it is other documentation, because I have not perused the document, but ... MR BIZOS Well, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... my perception of ... MR BIZOS Well, let me tell you that they were statements made on public platforms, on a radio programme, statements at CODESA and elsewhere which were given the widest publicity. Did it come to your notice or did you close your eyes and ears ... MR DERBY-LEWIS No. MR BIZOS ... to everything that the person that you decided to murder had been saying for the last three years, the last three years of his life? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I think that people are familiar with the basic Communist technique and that is repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. CHAIRPERSON I do not think that is the, you are required to make a comment on that. That is a matter for argument. MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you read these reports that appeared from time to time which reflected the thinking of Mr Hani from between 1990 to 1993? MR DERBY-LEWIS I am not sure, Mr Chairman, because I am not sure which reports is, Mr Bizos is referring to, but I can say that I noticed reports about Mr Hani. I mentioned in testimony that I had based my decision to target Mr Hani after a press report in February which reported that Mr Hani was agitating to obtain weaponry back from Angola into South Africa. So I was aware of some, but I do not, I cannot give a blanket statement and say I was aware of everything, Mr Chairman, and ... MR BIZOS Well, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS ... and certainly, I have never heard Mr Hani on a radio programme nor have I watched him on television. MR BIZOS It is a pity that you did not take an opportunity, even now, to read them even though you had about ten days, but in any event, do I understand your answer that whatever Mr Hani may have said, you would have dismissed as unimportant. You had your own ideas about Mr Hani? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, I did not say that, Mr Chairman. I said I ...(intervention) MR BIZOS What did you say, Sir? MR DERBY-LEWIS I said that I had read some reports on Mr Hani and that I did not believe that the reports that I had read of this man of peace were truthful. I have also been told, Mr Chairman, for example, that he was a practising Christian at the time of his death and, yet, I am aware of a report, I do not, I am not sure whether it was on a radio programme or a TV programme where Mr Hani was being interviewed and I was advised that he stated categorically during that interview that he did not believe in God. So, I think you can understand my difficulty, Mr Chairman, what is said and what is done are conflicting poles of one another and so ...(intervention) MR BIZOS You did not care what he said and you did not try and weigh up what he was saying over this period of three years before deciding whether he was the anti-Christ that you had to kill. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, it, I believe I am correct in saying that it was the general perception amongst people on the right that Mr Hani and his Communist Party were only interested in one thing and that was the attainment of power, not democracy, the attainment of power, and that they would do everything in their power to achieve that end. MR BIZOS The "everything" was that the majority of the people of South Africa would vote for them into office? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am convinced that had the Communist Party stood in the election, that would not have been the case. The Communist Party and the Communist members rode in on the back of the populist African National Congress whom they knew had the support they required to attain power. MR BIZOS Do you trust the judgement of the people of South Africa over yours sometimes, Mr Derby-Lewis? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, each person is entitled to his own opinion. I too am entitled to an opinion. MR BIZOS Mr Derby-Lewis, you did not bother to find out anything about Mr Chris Hani's attitude during this period. CHAIRPERSON Mr Chairman, there was - sorry, I thought you had finished. MR BIZOS I am going to ask the Committee's permission to show something recorded a few days before his death for you, for the Committee and you to see. MR DERBY-LEWIS Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS On the 6th of, it was on the 6th of April 1993, Mr Chairman. MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, can Mr Bizos just repeat that date? MR BIZOS The 6th of April. MR DERBY-LEWIS 6th of April 1993, thank you. MR BIZOS Four days before his death. MR DERBY-LEWIS I see they had no problem showing Dr Hartzenberg from a similar angle. CHAIRPERSON Please put it louder. MR DERBY-LEWIS Volume. The speaker. RECORDING STARTED MR HANI: ... for a, for democratic elections. PRESENTER: Chris Hani said the recent violence in Natal and the PWV region was cause for concern. MR HANI: The ambushing of the ordinary, you know, White kids and women along some of our highways is something that is not acceptable and I am saying to these Comrades here that every member of the ANC should be a combatant by these type of things, a fighter for peace. PRESENTER: The crowd then marched to Modderbee Prison where scores of East Rand activists are allegedly being ill-treated or held without trial. The ANC and its affiliates claim that they were... RECORDING ENDED MR BIZOS: You saw, did you, Mr Derby-Lewis, the late Mr Hani calling for peace and for the success of the negotiations? That is the man that you killed, Mr Derby-Lewis. MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Mr Derby-Lewis, you made an attempt to apologise, firstly, in your statement where you actually apologise to the people on your side and the trouble that you gave them by your arrest. Is that correct? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS No apology for the killing of Mr Hani? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS In the absence of Mrs Hani, you took the opportunity of not even checking whether she was present or not and you purported to apologise to her. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, up until the time that I made my statement, I was aware that Mrs Hani was in the audience. I had no information that she had left and I really believed that she was present, because I wanted to speak to her anyway. MR BIZOS And then you, when you saw that she was here, you said certain words purporting to be an apology to her. Have you apologised about wasting a valuable life that may have made a valuable contribution to the people of South Africa, Mr Derby-Lewis? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, with respect, may I ask is this a condition and is this something over which the Committee should then be subjected to evidence? My impression was that an apology was not necessary and not part of the whole function of this Committee. CHAIRPERSON Well, Mr Bizos, the Act does not require an applicant to apologise for what he did. He is required to make a full disclosure of what he did. MR BIZOS I am not unmindful. The question was not for the purposes, but in order to test his sincerity on the supposed apologies to Mrs Hani, Mr Chairman. It is not only, I am not asking as a question of law. I am asking as to whether this person that is before you has ever expressed regret for killing a person who could have made a valuable contribution to the political life of this country or not. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, no. How can I ever apologise for an act of war. War is war. I have not heard the ANC apologising, the perpetrators of these deeds for apologising for killing people in pubs and blowing them up in Wimpy Bars. I have heard no apologies for that, Mr Chairman. Those people are just as important as Mr Hani was. MR BIZOS We are dealing with your case today and let us confine ourselves ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS ... to your case Mr Derby-Lewis. CHAIRPERSON Anyway, the upshot of it all is that as far as Mr Derby-Lewis is concerned, he regarded what he did as an act of war and that ...(intervention) MR BIZOS And he does ... CHAIRPERSON ... and there was no need for him to apologise. MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Let us move on from there, Mr Bizos. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, may I also state that my apology to Mrs Hani and her children was done in an attempt to reach out a hand of reconciliation to her which I hoped, very sincerely, that she would have taken. That was my intention, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I understand. MR DERBY-LEWIS And I can understand the anger of these people and I do not criticise them for that, Mr Chairman. I understand. MR BIZOS You killed a person as an act of war who, four days before his death, was calling among a multitude of people, for peace, Mr Derby-Lewis. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, he called among a multitude of his people. He did not phone me up and say, listen, I am going to make this speech. He did not phone, he did not advise Dr Hartzenberg as one of the leaders or Dr Treurnicht as one of the leaders that he was a man of peace. I want, Mr Chairman, I am quite sure that senior members of the CP will confirm that at no time did Mr Hani ever bring his intentions, excuse me, his intentions to the attention of the Conservative Party or the right. So, how would we know about that, Mr Chairman, unless we watched the TV programmes, which I have already said, I have not watched. MR BIZOS You were invited to CODESA and you refused not to go. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman ...(intervention) MR BIZOS How can you put the blame on Mr Hani ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman ...(intervention) MR BIZOS ... for not taking part in the political process and then say that you killed him because you did not know that he was calling for peace? MR DERBY-LEWIS May I reply, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON I think your party's attitude towards CODESA is a matter on which you have already given evidence. MR DERBY-LEWIS It is on record, Mr Chairman, ... CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... that we refused to participate, because it was to do with the betrayal and sell-out of our people and the loss of our country. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS "The amnesty process is for the purpose of achieving reconciliation". Mr Derby-Lewis. You have already told us that you do not believe in the united South Africa, you do not believe in common citizenship and you are not prepared to apologise for killing a man who was calling for peace four days before his death. Is that a fair summary of your evidence, Mr Derby-Lewis? MR DERBY-LEWIS No, Mr Chairman. What Mr Bizos is doing now is he is selectively quoting out of the new Constitution which was not in existence at the time of Mr Hani's assassination and which also says that I am entitled to freedom of political expression or is there, am I misunderstanding this whole document? Please, Mr Chairman, let me place on record that I think that, that Constitution is a good Constitution when one considers what the objective of the Constitution is. I can see much to praise in that Constitution, but the fact remains, Mr Chairman, that nothing can convince me that my peoples' right to self-determination is wrong. I cannot accept that, Mr Chairman, and if I said I was sorry, I would actually be admitting that, and I would then become worse than just a liar. MR BIZOS And if the vast majority of the people of South Africa have decided that we are going to be a united country and not a fragmented country, which you call self-determination, and you are free, will you take steps to render inoperative the words of the preamble of the Constitution, Mr Derby-Lewis? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, the Constitution is a reality and it is quite correct, as Mr Bizos says, that the majority of the people have indicated their approval of that and how can I then want to force my will on those people over their own affairs. They are perfectly entitled to that, Mr Chairman. But surely, Mr Chairman, if one looks at world history, surely, Mr Chairman, if, even if one looks at South African history, recent and in the long term, it is clear, for example, that when the British compelled the Afrikaner to come into the Union of South Africa, we know the history of that, it was written into the Constitution at the time, categorically, that the Union of South Africa was the land of White South Africans. And, Mr Chairman, in the process of drawing up that Constitution and doing what they did with the boundaries of the country and remembering that certain trust lands were not part of, part and parcel of the Union of South Africa, they were recognised as belonging to the various peoples who were still located within the boundaries. And considering, Mr Chairman, that the British Government established Lesotho as the independent territory for the South Sotho people and considering that the Swazis got the territory of Swaziland and that the Tswanas were accorded Bophuthatswana, Mr Chairman, I do not think it was unreasonable at that time, I do not think it was unreasonable at that time for White South Africa also to be accorded a territory and I think that in the interests of peace and reconciliation, that was done. Mr Chairman, we in the Conservative Party, have always questioned, we've always questioned, Mr Chairman, whether the people who were allowed to vote in 1994 were actually entitled to vote in view of the perfidy of the total political dishonesty perpetrated by Mr de Klerk whom, as I testified, was aware of the fact in 1990 already, that he no longer represented the people that he entered into negotiations on behalf of, and he was using the military and the SAP to protect his position in spite of the fact that he broke a mandate. We had a rotten Constitution at the time. We were not able, in terms of our Constitution, to take Mr de Klerk to court. Otherwise I can assure you, Mr Chairman, had that possibility been contained in the Constitution at that time, Mr F W de Klerk would have been impeached for what he did, because he, by his own admission, betrayed the mandate given to him by the voter. So, that is the background, Mr Chairman, and I think that makes it clear how I feel on that and why I still believe that we Afrikaners are entitled to a territory of our own where we can exercise self-determination over our own affairs in Southern Africa, wherever it may be. MR BIZOS Having listened to you, Mr Derby-Lewis, can I summarise it by saying that you do not accept the legitimacy of the present Government? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, we made it very clear when the election was about to be held that we in the Conservative Party were not going to participate in that election, because participation would give legitimacy to the election result. We ...(intervention) MR BIZOS I did not ask you what your parties attitude was. The question was, do you accept the legitimacy of the present Government? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, whether we accept it or not, it is a legitimate Government. MR BIZOS I am asking you ... MR DERBY-LEWIS I accept, yes, Mr Chairman, yes, I accept the legitimacy of the Government as it is, because, in any case ...(intervention) MR BIZOS As a democratically elected Government? MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes. MR BIZOS The long speech that you made did not sound as coming from a person who told the Committee that he has given up politics. MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I have this knowledge. Am I now expected to withhold this from the Committee, because I am leaving the political arena? Mr Bizos invited those, that reply that I gave him. He actually looked for it and I gave it to him, Mr Chairman. Now he criticises me and tries to use that as the basis for a statement that I am going to, not going to leave politics. If I sound like a politician, Mr Chairman, I am sorry. I am a man of my people and that is all that I have ever tried to be and I have already assured this Committee that my plans are to now enjoy some of my life, because I have been involved solely in politics and everyone knows that, Mr Chairman, and that is why people outside are saying that this is the classical example of a political crime, because those people who know me, Mr Chairman, my opponents included, know that I would have no other motivation to perpetrate something as bad as that ...(intervention) MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... for me. MR BIZOS Mr Derby-Lewis, I am going to put to you that you are not a representative of the Afrikaner people. The vast majority of Afrikaners disassociate themselves from you altogether. Would you accept that? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I would challenge Mr Bizos to use his good offices with President Mandela and to invite a referendum on the question from him. I think he would be very surprised at the outcome. MR BIZOS You have tried, on a number of occasions, to make a, to make personal references to me. I have ignored them all, I will ignore this one as well, Mr Derby-Lewis. Just answer my questions please. Did the vast majority of the Afrikaners vote, despite your parties call not to vote? MR DERBY-LEWIS That is debatable, Mr Chairman. It depends on how you interpret the election result. MR BIZOS Well ... MR DERBY-LEWIS I, ... MR BIZOS Well, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS My interpretation, Mr Chairman ...(intervention) MR BIZOS You do not accept it? MR DERBY-LEWIS I do not accept that the vast majority of the Afrikaners ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... voted in favour of ... MR BIZOS Yes. MR DERBY-LEWIS ... participation, no. MR BIZOS Yes, and, Mr Derby-Lewis, the time has come for me to put to you what we will submit to the Committee you did and why we will argue you did it. Firstly, you did it, because you have a sense of self-importance which is not justified by the facts. That you had no authority from any political party, liberation movement or organ of State to commit the murder that you committed. Do you agree with me so far? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, I am not prepared to comment on this, because these statements are so ridiculous that they do not deserve comment. MR BIZOS Well, you say no comment. Very well, we, I can carry on. Secondly, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Thirdly, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Thirdly, thank you, ... MR DERBY-LEWIS Yes, pleasure. MR BIZOS That you did not act alone with Mr Walus and that you acted together with your wife and a number of people, including those who or those who reconnoitred the houses of the people on the list, supplied you with a gun and a silencer and, probably, others that neither you nor Mr Walus chose to disclose. That your act is completely out of proportion to any harm done to you or to anyone else and that you committed this murder when you saw that your racist policies had no chance of success, because the country was about to enter into a historical settlement in which racism would play no part. CHAIRPERSON You are telling him that that is what you will submit? MR BIZOS This is what - do you want to make any comment? MR DERBY-LEWIS Mr Chairman, may I consult with my advocate? I think that then indicates the end of the cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON Have you made all the points that you were going to submit, Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS Yes, in broad outline, Mr Chairman, we have done that. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Well, we will leave it at that, because I do not regard that as a question. MR BIZOS If he wants to comment on it, Mr Chairman. I did not want to take anyone by surprise. CHAIRPERSON Yes, anyway. MR BIZOS Yes. CHAIRPERSON These are the submissions that are going to be made and you are afforded an opportunity, if you wish, to comment on them. MR DERBY-LEWIS I just want to say that I have already commented on the first two, Mr Chairman, and my comment applies similarly, equally to the other two. It is nonsense. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BIZOS Finally, that you have failed to bring yourself within Section 22 and 3 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act number 34 of 1955. MR DERBY-LEWIS Sorry, Mr Chairman, would I, I was under the impression Mr Bizos had ended. Would you please repeat that ... MR BIZOS I am just making a legal submission. MR DERBY-LEWIS I just want the section's numbers please, Mr Chairman. MR BIZOS Yes, 20, sub-section two and three of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation. Mr Chairman, that is all I want to put to this witness at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BIZOS I may indicate, Mr Chairman, that information is being filtered through to us as a result of these proceedings and as it looks as if we will not be finishing it this session, I will ask for leave in order to put further specific allegations to the witness once the information in confirmed, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Which may or may not happen? MR BIZOS Which may or may not happen. CHAIRPERSON Yes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, are there questions you wish to put to this witness? MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, I am not in a position to put questions at this stage, Mr Chairman. I had questions and some of them may have been covered by Advocate Bizos, but I will need time to check whether what I am going to ask has already been covered by him. So much has been said, I cannot commence right now. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it is most unlikely that anything has been left for anybody else to ask. MR MPSHE Mr Chairman, I want to believe that he may have done everything, but I want to satisfy myself. CHAIRPERSON He may have asked more than he ought to have as well. MR MPSHE Sorry, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON He may have asked more than he ought to have. MR MPSHE Yes, Mr Chairman, he may have done so. CHAIRPERSON That is not intended to be a criticism of you, Mr Bizos. It is just a compliment to your enthusiasm. MR BIZOS I am not embarrassed by your statement, Mr Chairman. I, you have given me a patient hearing for which I want to thank you and the members of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Mrs van der Walt, are there any questions you wish to put? MS VAN DER WALT There are no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Prinsloo, do you wish to re-examine your witness? MR PRINSLOO I would like to re-examine the witness, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. MR PRINSLOO Am I to understand that Mr Mpshe is not going to cross-examine the witness? CHAIRPERSON Well, it is not likely. MR PRINSLOO Not likely? CHAIRPERSON Not likely. MR PRINSLOO I think to cross-examine then, obviously, I... CHAIRPERSON If he cross-examines I will give you another chance arising out of whatever happens. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, at this stage, may I ask the Committee's indulgence for me to go through all these questions, there is a number, but at the end it may only be a few questions that I will have to put to the witness. It will save time if the Committee will grant me that indulgence. Also, to clear up the documents that Mr Bizos put to the witness. CHAIRPERSON There has undoubtedly been extensive questioning of Mr Derby-Lewis, there has undoubtedly been reference to a large number of documents and I am satisfied that you are entitled to some time to consider the position before you re-examine your witness. I am going to afford you the opportunity to consider your position before you re-examine Mr Derby-Lewis. Mr Bizos ...(intervention) MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bizos, I am now going to adjourn today's proceedings until 09:30 tomorrow morning. MR PRINSLOO I am indebted to you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON The Committee will now adjourn until 09:30 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS