amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-05-08 PRETORIA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54883&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pta/ismail3.htm JOHANNES MNISI: (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody, I apologise for the late start but certain matters had to be attended to before we started today. You'll recall that when we adjourned yesterday it was for purposes of Mr Knight who only came in yesterday to represent one of the applicants, a Mr de Sousa, to prepare himself for the cross-examination if any, of the present applicant Mr Mnisi who is giving evidence. It's been indicated to me that Mr Knight is still not in a position to proceed with his cross-examination at this stage and I know I made certain statements yesterday concerning the desirability of Mr Knight cross-examining before Mr Visser does and that was the reason why we adjourned early but I also did state that by adjourning early yesterday we would only be losing about an hour of an hour and a half of business. But with the situation now, we don't want to be in the situation where we may lose a day or even more and so it's been agreed that we will proceed with the evidence of Mr Mnisi and that Mr Visser will cross-examine him and that Mr Knight's cross-examination of Mr Mnisi will be reserved for a stage later in the application. He can be called for purposes of cross-examination if required. Mr Knight has not stated that he's definitely going to be cross-examining, he's still got to determine whether there are any questions in cross-examination. So we will then proceed with the application today with Mr Visser cross-examining any questions by re-examination, any questions by the Committee but we'll reserve Mr Knight's cross-examination. And then if we have time we will proceed with the further applicants' evidence today and then come back to that problem later. What I've said, is that correct Mr Knight? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman, yes I confirm that that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything any of the other legal representatives wish to say at this stage? MR VISSER No Mr Chairman. MR MODISE No Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, then I'll ask Mr Visser if he has any questions. Sorry, you've finished your evidence in chief? MR MODISE Yes, but I want to say two things. Firstly I've got the statements here, can I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Modise. MR VISSER Now Mr Chairman, really, I'm on the point of starting cross-examination, I haven't seen that document at all. Really! CHAIRPERSON Are you objecting to it being ...[intervention] MR VISSER I'm not objecting with it Mr Chair, I'll try to deal with it as I sit here now. CHAIRPERSON Is that statement a written version of what was said? MR MODISE It doesn't depart, not even with any sentence or word, it's just the same as yesterday. CHAIRPERSON Yes, because I think there's ...[intervention] MR MODISE It's just for Mr Visser's convenience that I'm handing it over. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think if can then hand it out and Mr Visser if before you conclude your cross-examination, if you want some time to take a look at it before you finally finish, we will certainly afford you such time. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. I would rather hope that we can finish it once and for all. CHAIRPERSON This statement will then be received as Exhibit E. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, do you have any cross-examination? MR MODISE Mr Chairperson, I said I had two things. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, sorry Mr Modise, yes? MR MODISE The other thing is that you would have seen that the application of Mr Mnisi, his amnesty application is really in the name of Johannes Minisi so at this stage I just want to make a formal application that his name, his MK name be substituted with his real name which is Johannes Mnisi, for the purposes of these proceedings. CHAIRPERSON Yes, is there any objection to that? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, no. And in fact I may inform you that there has been precedent, I think it originated in the Motsamai/Ngo matter in Bloemfontein, to say that the Committee has the authority to exercise a discretion in regard to amendments of applications. I don't have any objection. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think it is certainly also desirable Mr Modise that we deal with Mr Mnisi with his real name rather than with his assumed name and accordingly your application is granted and wherever on the application form or in the proceedings the name Molefe is used we'll substitute that with the name Mnisi. MR MODISE Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. It appears that I have to refer you to page 4 of Exhibit E which has just been handed to us. It would seem that that is where at paragraph 13 at the top of that page, you start dealing with the Church Street Bomb, is that correct? I'm sorry, I've got a technical problem Mr Chairman. I'm sorry Mr Chairman, may I enquire whether that has been interpreted to the witness, I didn't hear. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mnisi, did you hear what Mr Visser said? Was it translated to you? Yes, it has been translated Mr Visser. INTERPRETER May you please repeat your question? MR VISSER I'm asked to repeat my question to you Mr Mnisi, it's not really a question. I'm referring you to Exhibit E which has just been handed to the Committee, at page 4 thereof, paragraph 13. And I would like to ask you some questions about that. You say in paragraph 13 that you were involved in the unit which planned with Church Street car bomb attack on the South African Airforce headquarters in Pretoria to which we've been referring to as the Church Street Bomb, that is correct is it not? MR MNISI Yes. MR VISSER Now will you please tell the Committee exactly what your involvement consisted of? MR MNISI As I've already indicated yesterday my involvement there was to try and get two comrades and to test the remote control device that will be used in Pretoria. MR VISSER Alright. Now were you involved in the division - I don't know what you want to refer to it as but special operations, were you part of special operations? MR MNISI Yes, I was part of special operations, I was a member of the special operations. MR VISSER Where were you stationed in 1983? MR MNISI In Mozambique. MR VISSER Alright. Just tell us about that, did you share a building with other commanders of special operations or what was the position? MR MNISI I was living alone with my family in a residence where the movement had organised us for. MR VISSER And did special operations have an office in Maputo? MR MNISI Yes, there was place where it functioned or it operated. MR VISSER Was that a place where people went to do their work in special operations, like an office or a headquarters or whatever the case may be? Is that the situation? MR MNISI In Mozambique there was an office, ANC office that is and most of the MK people never used to go there because the majority were people who were preparing to come back home so they were not supposed to mix with the people who are not taking any part in this. So the special ops had its special area or place of operation, it was not mixed with the other involvement of other people. MR VISSER And if you would go there on a typical day, who would you find in that office of special ops? MR MNISI I will say you will not go to that office with no objective at all, you would go there for a purpose and you will meet somebody each time you go there because one would not just wake up and go there for no apparent reason, you will go there for a specific reason. MR VISSER Well your reason would have been that you were part of special ops? MR MNISI Yes. MR VISSER So I'm talking about that. If you on any particular day went there, any typical day I should say, what would you find in that office? Who would you expect to be there? MR MNISI When we have arranged that we will meet in that office on a particular day I would usually find Rashid and the late JS, that is Joe Slovo. MR VISSER Are we to understand then that they were really the two people who manned that office or am I wrong? MR MNISI I would say that. MR VISSER You yourself, typically in the performance of your duties, would you often go to do something at that office? MR MNISI I will go on a call each time they call me for a certain reason I will go there. MR VISSER And for the rest of the time you would stay at home, is that the picture? MR MNISI Yes. MR VISSER Now, are we then to understand that you were specifically called to the office in Maputo by someone to tell you that you should provide two comrades to execute the attack on the Church Street Bomb? MR MNISI As a member of MK and special operations, I will take orders from the two people. Each time there would be a mission like this or an operation like this I will be called to organise that particular mission, like for instance the power station. That is how we operated, that's the procedure we followed, you can't just do you own way. MR VISSER And did that general procedure also pertain to this particular case of the Church Street Bomb? MR MNISI That's true. MR VISSER Was it on that occasion or on another occasion that you were told to test the device, the triggering device? MR MNISI Yes. MR VISSER Yes what? Was it on the same occasion or on another occasion? MR MNISI There was a time when we left with Rashid to test the device. I was told by Rashid that we should test the device? MR VISSER And was that on a different occasion to the occasion when you were called and told to obtain the services of two people to attack the target? MR MNISI Yes. MR VISSER Alright. Now on the fist occasion then, that was to obtain the services of people, who called you to the office? MR MNISI I was called by Rashid. MR VISSER And when you arrived at the office was he the only person there or was there someone else there? MR MNISI It was himself and the late Joe Slovo. MR VISSER Look, if you don't remember you must please say so, it's a long time ago. I'm not expecting you to remember everything. MR VISSER Were there any specific instructions regarding the type of person that you required or that Rashid required to execute this task? MR MNISI One thing I know is that as a work that supposed to be undertaken in Pretoria, we will want people who are based in Pretoria and those were the only two we knew, that I knew, since they were based in Pretoria and they are able to work better if they are not occupied other things because there were other things that they were doing that I didn't know of. MR VISSER And had you known these two people before that time? I'm talking about Freddy Tshongwe and Izekial Maseko? Had you known them before the time you were called to the office? MR MNISI Yes, I knew them. MR VISSER And you were certain that they would follow the instructions if they were given instructions to bomb a target? MR MNISI Yes. MR VISSER Were you told what kind of device would be used? MR MNISI Me, I don't understand your question quite well, who was supposed to tell who about the kind of device that was supposed to be used? MR VISSER I'm trying to find out from you what Rashid told you. Did he tell you that there would be -first of all, you knew or let me ask you this, did you know what the target would be that these two people would have to attack, Tshongwe and Maseko? Did you know what target they were supposed to go and attack? MR MNISI Yes, I knew because I had already been told. MR VISSER Were you part of the decision taking as to the target that was selected, were you part of that process? MR MNISI I was already briefed, because we would discuss each and every target, between Rashid and Oliver Tambo and Joe Slovo. They will discuss about the kind of target, I will just receive it as an order, it will be after it had been discussed. MR VISSER That answers that question. Did you know how the Church Street - did you know how the South African Airforce headquarters in Church Street would be attacked? MR MNISI They had already briefed me, as I've indicated earlier on, they had already told me. MR VISSER Okay, so you knew when you contacted Tshongwe and Maseko that it would be a car bomb that would be used and you also knew that the car bomb would be triggered with an electronic device? MR MNISI Yes, I already knew. MR VISSER And you then say later you received instructions to test that electronic device, the triggering device? MR MNISI Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Did I understand you correctly to say in your evidence that you tested that device in Lusaka? MR MNISI Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Would you explain that to me please, because you're sitting in Mozambique, Maputo, how does it come about that you tested the device in Lusaka? MR MNISI People were given jobs in many ways. For example the testing of the device, it was not done in two days it took some time. As Rashid had already explained that each and every operation of the special ops would take months before something was implemented, everything had to be checked. That is why it also took some time for this device to be checked as well to make sure that it was going to do the job without having to do any mistakes. That doesn't mean that, like you have asked me, did I stay at home at the time, I said yes because I knew that each time I had to be called in I was available to carry out any operation. MR VISSER Now you haven't answered my question. My question is this: What was the particular reason why this device could not be tested in Maputo? MR MNISI I cannot give you an answer to this. We had to go and test the device in Zambia following an order, an order that came from the commanders. I therefore cannot answer to that question. They must have had reasons why the device had to be tested in Zambia, that is perhaps how they saw it. And I could not object to the decision of testing the device in Zambia. MR VISSER Yes, I'm not blaming you and if Rashid had given this evidence we would have asked him what his reasons were. How did you exactly test this device? MR MNISI I did not test it, we tested it because I was not alone. There were two of us, myself and Rashid. MR VISSER How did the two of you test the device? MR MNISI I don't know how to explain this because the question here is, one has to be a kilometre or two away so that we should be able to determine as to whether the signal can reach the distance and make out any disturbance that may occur and establish at the same time as to whether the device can hit when it is time to do so. MR VISSER And you say that took days? MR MNISI Yes, it took some time because we wanted to make sure that no mistake happened so that innocent people died. MR VISSER Alright, well going onto exactly that point, did you discuss - let me ask you this first of all, did you come from Pretoria originally, before you went to Mozambique? Did you live in Pretoria before you went to Mozambique? MR MNISI Yes. MR VISSER And would it be fair to assume that you knew Pretoria fairly well? MR MNISI Yes. MR VISSER Well, did you know that area where the South African Airforce headquarters was fairly well? MR MNISI I did not know the place quite well. MR VISSER Yes. Did you know that a lot of people work in that building? MR MNISI As I've just explained here, I did not know the building quite well. There are many people working in buildings in Pretoria. I only got to know about this when I received the report to the fact that there were people working in the building. MR VISSER Did Rashid discuss the question of civilians with you that may be affected by this explosion or didn't he? MR MNISI As I have already explained that the reconnaissance had already been done, they were already aware of such things. MR VISSER I'm asking you whether it was discussed with you, while you were testing the bomb for example? MR MNISI Us, we did not discuss it at the time when we were testing the device. MR VISSER Did you discuss it at any time? MR MNISI No. I want to believe that this was already discussed by the commanding staff. MR VISSER You know Mr Mnisi, I don't understand - I'm sorry, I keep not giving sufficient time, I do apologise to the interpreter. Mr Mnisi, I'm trying to make my questions as simple as possible but you don't seem to answer them, why is that? Don't you understand the questions? MR MNISI I do understand what you are saying. MR VISSER Try to answer this simple questions. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Visser, but my notes, unless I misheard, your question was: "Did you discuss it at any time"? and then his answer was: "No, I believe it was discussed by senior staff". MR VISSER That's right. CHAIRPERSON Now, isn't that an answer, he said: "No"? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, he's talking about other people where I'm addressing my questions ....[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He says: "Did you discuss it at any time"? - answer: "No, I believe it was discussed by the senior staff". MR VISSER I see. I see what you're saying Mr Chairman and I don't want to be unfair and if I am unfair I do apologise. Let's make it quite clear, did you, Johannes Minisi discuss with Rashid the issue of civilian, possible civilian casualties at any time? MR MNISI You asked me as to whether we discussed this when we were testing the device and I said: "No". I think I have answered that questions. MR VISSER I'm now asking whether you discussed it at any other time. MR MNISI No, we did not discuss it. MR VISSER Did you in fact brief the two operatives, Tshongwe and Maseko, did you brief them on what they had to go and do? MR MNISI I was not the only person who briefed them, Rashid was also present when the briefing was done when the training had to be conducted for the two operatives pertaining to the use of the device. MR VISSER Mr Mnisi, can you please answer this question, did you Johannes Minisi brief Tshongwe and Maseko on how the attack was to be carried out? MR MNISI You see, I was given instructions to call them to Swaziland to discuss this so that Rashid was the one who was to brief them about this and I did that. Instead - I was given instructions to call them to come to Swaziland, instead only Freddy Tshongwe came to Swaziland, the other one did not come. By then Rashid was in Swaziland where Freddy was briefed by Rashid about the whole operation. I was also present during the briefing. And he was also shown the device and he had enough time to show the device to the operative. MR VISSER Alright, I hear what you say. So what you're saying is that you were present when Rashid briefed Freddy Tshongwe, have I got that right? MR MNISI Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Did Rashid discuss the question of civilian casualties with Freddy Tshongwe? MR MNISI I do not remember. MR VISSER Tell me this, you say you were involved in other operations as well, attacks carried out within the borders of the Republic of South Africa? MR MNISI Yes, like power stations, Voortrekkerhoogte. MR VISSER Were you present when Rashid briefed the operatives in regard to some of those attacks as well? MR MNISI I was not present most of the time because I was busy with other things. MR VISSER Were you present some of the time? MR MNISI Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Can you remember perhaps which occasions, in regard to what attacks were you present? Perhaps I can make it simple for you, were you involved at all in the Sasol attacks? MR MNISI No, I was not present. MR VISSER Alright. Did you at any - can you today remember that Rashid when he briefed operatives, spoke to them about avoiding civilian casualties? MR MNISI I don't remember. MR VISSER Thank you. Give us a rough estimate, over the years how many briefings such as the one we're talking about now did you attend, a rough estimate? MR MNISI It was only the Voortrekkerhoogte perhaps, and the power stations, the two power stations and a sub-station and this very one, the one that involves Freddy. MR VISSER Okay. Were you personally interested at all in the question of how the attack might effect civilians? You yourself, were you concerned about that? MR MNISI It did not occur to me because the target was already known and therefore I did not think about the civilian questions. MR VISSER Was Freddy Maseko, sorry Tshongwe trained in the use of this device? MR MNISI Yes, he was trained. MR VISSER And did this take place in Swaziland? MR MNISI Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And how long did it take to train him? MR MNISI Two days if I'm not mistaken, two or three days. MR VISSER Mr Chairman yes, I'm afraid I wasn't watching my watch and with the late starting I'm not certain how you want to arrange the short adjournment to be taken. I can stop at any time, I'm never bothered by things like that, as to reach a certain point. CHAIRPERSON I think, unless anybody's got an urgent need to have an adjournment, if we can proceed I think seeing that we started so late. MR VISSER Yes, alright Mr Chairman. What did this training consist of, will you just tell us. I'll tell you, I'm not wasting time Mr Mnisi. Let me tell you why I'm asking you this, because it appears to us if you look down the list of attacks that were carried out by special ops, it seems that everything always went wrong at the last minute. Perhaps I'm exaggerating but most of the time things went wrong so I'm asking you what did this training consist of? MR MNISI He used the remote control device for the training, showed him as to how it operated. That was the main important thing for which he was called because this person was a member of the MK and he knew some of the things. MR VISSER Mr Mnisi, this electronic device, did it have buttons or levers? MR MNISI Mr Chairperson, may the speaker please repeat the question. MR VISSER Did this electronic triggering device have a button or buttons or did it have levers with which you had to activate the device? MR MNISI It had buttons, it used buttons. MR VISSER So you would say to Freddy Tshongwe: "When you want the bomb to go off you press this button"? MR MNISI I thought I have answered the question that the person who trained the person was Rashid. It was not just the question of showing him the buttons but he had to show him generally as to how the device worked. MR VISSER Tell us what was so involved about this, I don't understand. MR MNISI I don't understand what you are trying to say because I have just indicated to you that Rashid was showing him how the device was working. That is not just a question of showing him the button because if that was the case, in a second he would have shown him how the button could be pressed and just let him go. CHAIRPERSON You see, I think the question asked by Mr Visser is - you said earlier that it took two or three days to train Mr Tshongwe with regard to the use of the device and you've said it operated by having a button being pushed. Now what Mr Visser wants to know is what did you do during those two days other than just showing how to push a button, what else was involved in the training of Mr Tshongwe? Did you have to repeat what was done in Zambia by going distances apart or whatever? Just explain that, why it took two or three days. MR MNISI The reason was for the operative to understand the operation of the device to try and avoid what had happened because we don't quite understand what led to this happening. MR VISSER So the short answer is, you can't tell us why two days were taken up with the training, that's the short answer? MR MNISI I don't know whether I should say that or not. I just indicated to you that the person was called in to be trained as to, into the use of the device. I don't know whether you want something else that I don't know. MR VISSER I'm not going to labour the point, I'll make certain submissions on your evidence and your refusal or lack of information. In paragraph 14 of Exhibit E you gave figures and you say that: "As a result of the explosion 19 people were killed including 11 airforce officers? remember that? MR MNISI Yes, the 14 here indicates that the information gathered came through the press, we only obtained this number through the media. MR VISSER I put it to you want is strange is that we one week down the line with the hearings of these applications and we've made it perfectly clear in our cross-examination that the figures which are incidently the same as you mentioned, mentioned by Rashid were not correct. I find it strange that this morning you produce a document in which you still say the same figures. MR MNISI These figures are the very same that Rashid spoke about. We only got this information from the media and I therefore can not surely attach to the figures that came to the press but these are the figures that we have. MR VISSER Are you prepared to accept that 19 people died, you say so yourself, 19 people died in this attack, do you accept that? MR MNISI I don't whether I should yes or no. It's difficult because there was also a debate about this figure between the panel in the TRC. There was a debate pertaining to the figure because it is not exactly known how many people died and therefore it becomes very difficult for me to acknowledge the figures because I am not the one who has come with the figures but the press is. MR VISSER No, you see, I understand your practical approach to the matter but legally this is your evidence and I'm putting it to you your evidence is incorrect. The correct evidence is that seven defence force personnel were killed. MR MNISI Exactly. I am still repeating that the very same information that you too have, comes from the press, it doesn't come from me. MR VISSER Our information does not originate from the press Mr Mnisi please, just stick to the answers. Just stick to answering the questions. 10 civilians were killed, can you dispute that? MR MNISI I cannot deny that, I was not there, I don't know. MR VISSER Yes, and Freddy Tshongwe and Izekial Maseko were also killed, we know that. As far as the injuries are concerned ...[intervention] MR MNISI Yes, I did hear that. MR VISSER Yes. As far as the injuries are concerned, I put it to you that 86 defence force personnel were injured and 114 who had absolutely nothing to do with the defence force, civilians in the sense that they had nothing to do with that building, 114 of them were injured. Can you dispute those figures? MR MNISI I cannot deny that, you are the one that is telling me this now. MR VISSER I'm sorry Mr Chairman, I believe I'm just about through. Yes, Mr Chairman, if I may for the moment just address you on one short issue, and I don't want to detain the witness. We did mention at one point in time that the two operatives according to our information had been convicted or had previously been convicted, I think was what we said and it was then taken up Mr Chairman. At the time, I don't even remember in what context I mentioned it but it wasn't the intention of ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think there was a report drafted by the - I've forgotten what it's called, the Terrorist Institute or something, which referred to them as hired ...[intervention] MR VISSER Criminals or something. CHAIRPERSON Hired gangsters and criminals I think. MR VISSER Thank you for reminding me, I thought I might have done so. Mr Chairman, frankly the - nothing turns on that point in our argument and our approach to the matter but insofar as a member of the Committee has expressed interest in it, will you allow me one question in that regard. You say these two people, Tshongwe and Maseko were friends of yours, do you know whether they had previous convictions? MR MNISI I still remember feintly that they were once convicted before they left. MR VISSER Can you remember feintly what they were convicted of? MR MNISI ...[no English translation] MR VISSER I didn't hear your answer. MR MNISI Yes, they were convicted for stealing money. MR VISSER Money, alright. Well Mr Chairman as I say, we take that point no further. Mr Chairman, as presently advised and depending on what might transpire when Mr Knight starts addressing you or cross-examining the witnesses or presenting his witness, we don't have any immediate further questions thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Steenkamp, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman, a few questions. Mr Mnisi, if we can turn to your document, Exhibit E page 3, paragraph 11. If you look at line number 4 starting with: "We said ourselves up at the operational site" do you see that? MR MNISI Yes. MR STEENKAMP Can you tell us who that "we" is, who were all the people involved in this incident, the Voortrekkerhoogte incident, you're talking about "we"? MR MNISI Bani. MR STEENKAMP Just repeat that. MR MNISI It was Bani Molokwane, Vicks Sidney Sibepi, Johnny and the late Philemon. MR STEENKAMP If we go down in the same paragraph, the line starting with "We approached him" the same paragraph. In the middle of that paragraph on the righthand side you will see there's a sentence starting: "We approached him and asked him for a lift, he refused. Bani Molokwane panicked and shot him in the stomach" Do you see that? MR MNISI Yes. MR STEENKAMP This person that was shot, was this an Indian person? MR MNISI That was an Indian and Lodium is the area of the Indian, Indian area. MR STEENKAMP Were you present when this person was shot? MR MNISI When we were going to look for transport, it was myself and Bani. MR STEENKAMP Because I want to refer you to volume 4, index 4 and we can start at page 32 paragraph 2, do you have that? CHAIRPERSON Page 32? MR STEENKAMP That's correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON There's no paragraph 2, that 2 is the page number, it's part of paragraph 3. MR STEENKAMP On paragraph 3 on the top of the page, the sentence starting with "Nadat" I'll read the sentence for you: "After the shots had been fired they left me next to the road, I don't know in which direction they left. I know how many shots had been fired" Do you understand that? You see, is we look at your statement, your Exhibit E paragraph 11, again on page 3, according to your statement, I'll read the sentence two thirds down of the paragraph starting with: "We then ran in the direction of where Vicks, Sidney and Sibebe and Johnny were hiding" Okay, I'll read it again: "We then ran in the direction of where Vicks, Sidney, Sibebe and Johnny were hiding" Now correct me if I'm wrong, this statement was taken - this statement starting on page 31 in bundle 4 is actually the statement of Mr Zahied Ibrahim Patel, the Indian person who was shot. According to his statement it looks to me that he was robbed of his vehicle after he was shot and according to your statement you ran in direction after he was shot. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, where do you get that from? They said "After the shots had been fired they left me next to the car and left" Now my impression of that is that after the shots were fired they left me next to the car and hit the dirt or ran away. MR STEENKAMP That's exactly why I'm asking the question Mr Chairman, it's a bit confusing to me. CHAIRPERSON Did you take the motor vehicle? MR MNISI We did not take the motor vehicle because when the person left, alighted from the car he took his key with and we ran towards the direction where the other comrades had hidden. We left the car with Bani, we did not take the car. This is why I said to Bani they should go back to the base, I will follow them. I will go to Mamelodi to look for more transport. If we had taken that transport we had no problem therefore we could not go and look for other transport because we will be already having one. We left the gun because we did not have transport, that's where the police captured us because they found lying there on the firing point. MR STEENKAMP Right. If you look at page 30 index 4, you will see there's a report, an examination in a case of alleged assault. This is the medical report of the person who was actually shot. According to this report Mr Patel was shot three times in the back and not in the stomach. Can you explain that, why was he shot in the back? MR MNISI What I know is that Bani shot him once to the stomach and that is when we left. That was the time when we heard firing shots we ran towards the kombi's direction. If the other shots were fired it meant he was shot by his people but I only heard one shot from Makaroff. MR STEENKAMP Just bear with me Mr Chairman. Mr Mnisi, just turning to the Pretoria incident, Mr Tshongwe and Mr Maseko, were they ever informed about the policy of the ANC? Were they trained in the policy, the decisions of the ANC? You said they were well trained, can you just tell me were they informed that the policy of the ANC was not to hit civilian targets but as Mr Ismail put it, military targets? MR MNISI They knew that very well, they were MK members and African National Congress as well. MR STEENKAMP Did you inform them again before this attack? MR MNISI I think Rashid made that known to them because I have no recollection of me doing that. MR STEENKAMP Can you just tell me, who did the reconnaissance of the Voortrekkerhoogte incident or attack, who did the reconnaissance there? MR MNISI The information that I gathered from Rashid is that the reconnaissance was done by Bani and the two foreigners he was with at the time. MR STEENKAMP And in turning to the Wits Command incident, who gave Mr Grosskopf instructions, or did anybody give him instructions to take the Wits Command, do you know? MR MNISI I have no knowledge in as far as that is concerned. I have already indicated that I only prepared the material from Lusaka in as far as that incident is concerned. MR STEENKAMP Did you plan the operation? MR MNISI No. MR STEENKAMP Because if you look at your statement, Exhibit E, paragraph 20, please correct me if I'm wrong, I'll read for you "I was not involved in the actual carrying out of the operation. My role in the operation was in the planning and the preparation of the material" Now you're saying you were not involved, you're saying now you were not involved in the planning only in the preparation of the material. MR MNISI I was not involved in the planning. The only planning was to plan to forward the material to the comrades in Botswana, that was the only planning. But as far as the operation, it was already in place. I bear no knowledge in as far as that is concerned. I wouldn't know, maybe Rashid will be in a better position to explain to that effect. MR STEENKAMP Can you give us some more information about the material that was used and where did you get the material from? MR MNISI When the material left it was sent to Botswana to the auxiliary comrades that were working hand in hand with Vusi and Tome. They were the people who received the material that we sent. MR STEENKAMP Did anybody assist you in preparing this operation? Except for Mr Ismail and yourself, did anyone else assist you? MR MODISE Mr Chairperson, I think the witness has already stated that he did not plan the operation so for Mr Steenkamp to ask that question I don't know what he expects him to say. He said he was involved in the preparation of the material as well as the planning for the material to go elsewhere but to ask him more than twice if he was involved in the planning of the operation, I don't think it helps. I think the question has been answered. I don't think Mr Steenkamp can get more that what he wants. The question will never be different - the answer will never be different from what he's answered. MR STEENKAMP I think the question - I'll try and make it as easy as I can. When you prepared the material to be used in the attack did anybody assist you in that, not the operation, the planning of the operation but the actually preparing the material to be used? Did anybody assist you? MR MNISI We prepared that material with Rashid, nobody else. MR STEENKAMP So it was only you and Rashid? MR MNISI Yes. MR STEENKAMP Nothing turns on it, I just want to ask, is there any reason why you didn't mention Mr Rashid in paragraph 20 as being the person who assisted you? MR MNISI The person I was working with was him, I wasn't working alone. MR STEENKAMP Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Steenkamp. Mr Modise, do you have any re-examination? MR MODISE No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Knight, I take it you're still reserving your cross-examination or do you want to at this stage put any questions? MR KNIGHT No, not at this stage. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions? MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, just one question. Mr Mnisi, your position did it put you in a situation where you were part of discussions leading to making of decisions? MR MNISI Often time I would not be involved. The command will finish up everything and send the orders to us for us to implement them. ADV MOTATA Now in implementing these orders, were you in a position to use your discretion as to in what way those orders should be implemented? Would you be in a position to change the manner in which an order should be implemented? MR MNISI The work that already is planned, there was no way that I will change it. For instance the Power Station, I would be in the position to use my own discretion to change because I would have been the one who has done everything and conducted the reconnaissance as well, so in a way I will be in a position to change the manner to how we approach the whole thing but otherwise I will not be in a position to do that. ADV MOTATA Would I be correct to describe your situation or position as being that of a foot soldier? MR MNISI I don't understand that foot soldier, in what way? ADV MOTATA In the way that all you were supposed to do was to carry out orders. MR MNISI Yes. ADV MOTATA Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Motata, do you have any questions? ADV MOTATA Just one Mr Chairman. Mr Mnisi, you said you fired the rockords, rockets, I'm referring to Voortrekkerhoogte, how many rockets did you fire? MR MNISI We fired 5 rockets at Voortrekkerhoogte. ADV MOTATA Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions? DR TSOTSI No. CHAIRPERSON Judge Pillay? JUDGE PILLAY None. CHAIRPERSON Mr Modise, any questions arising from questions that have been asked by the panel? MR MODISE No, Mr Chairperson, no questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER If it pleases you Mr Chairman, one. Let's get back to this question of a foot soldier, let me explain to you what the Honourable Commissioner means when he asks you whether you were a foot soldier. A foot soldier is like a constable or an ordinary member on the ground who just executes and follows orders, he's not allowed to think for himself, he doesn't train others, he doesn't instruct others. Was that truly your position? MR MNISI If you recall the MK and the operation member it's not according to the way that you are explaining it, that you will be told to take this and put it there and do it just that. There are things that you may question because at every briefing people ask questions. MR VISSER Yes, but I'm talking about your role and your position in special ops. You were a person who tested devices, not so? MR MNISI Yes. MR VISSER Did you instruct persons on the ground? Were there persons on the ground that you had to instruct on what they had to do? Did that happen? MR MNISI You see, this is the situation. If you've been given a task to carry as I've already given an example about the power station, you'll be told your responsibility. It will be up to you especially if you've done the reconnaissance, to change according to the way the situation presents itself. People who might change, other people who might change will be those who will be undertaking the operation direct. MR VISSER This is not at all what we're talking about unfortunately. What I'm talking about is your position in special ops and all I'm asking is, where you not one who received orders from Rashid and would then carry those orders over or give instructions to other cadres? MR MNISI At time it would be like that. MR VISSER Did you have a rank, what did they call you? What were you? MR MNISI There were no ranks there like the SADF. MR VISSER But there were commanders weren't there? MR MNISI Yes, there were commanders. MR VISSER Rashid called himself a commander. MR MNISI The MK units, for instance if you've been given four or three people and you are the fourth or the fifth one, it will be taken that you are the commander as you go and undertake the operation. It's not taken for granted that you will be the commander for the rest of that time. MR VISSER But just to make it absolutely clear. Freddy Tshongwe and Maseko, I would suggest to you they were foot soldiers. They were told to go and do a job and they did it. MR MNISI Yes, they were told to do that job and one of them was a commander. MR VISSER But you weren't in their class, you were somewhere above them isn't that so? MR MNISI I may say so, that I was their superior because I participated as well. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, any questions arising? MR STEENKAMP No thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Mnisi, you may stand down subject to the possibility that you may be required to come back and give evidence if Mr Knight has any questions to put to you, which we'll only know some time in the future. Thank you. MR MNISI Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I think, would this be a convenient time to take a short adjournment and then is it Mr van der Berg, will you be calling a further applicant after that? We'll take a short adjournment at this stage. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS