amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS, SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-03-07 PRETORIA BRIG CRONJE 9 PHILIP LUKHELE JAN HATTINGH CRONJE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54899&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/pta/pta.htm JUDGE MALL: Mr van den Berg, before the hearing of evidence this morning, I think that we should inform you of our decision concerning the application made by your attorneys to subpoena nine people whose names are set out in this letter, and in respect of which an application was made by Mr Currin on behalf of your clients. My Committee has considered this request for subpoena and of the nine names as presently advised at least five of them are people who have applied for amnesty. There is a likelihood that more or some of the others may apply, but at any rate in respect of those who have already applied for amnesty the Committee is of the view that we ought not to subpoena them to appear in these proceedings. We are, however, of the view that the request that Brigadier Victor who is described as the commanding officer at the time of a number of the incidents and whose name figures prominently or has figured prominently in the evidence, that he should be subpoenaed. If it transpires that he has applied or will apply for amnesty then he will not be subpoenaed but in the event of him not applying for amnesty we will subpoena him and the date and the time for the hearing of his evidence will be notified to your attorneys. On the information presently on hand we do not consider it necessary to subpoena Mr P W Botha. We are also informed that Mr Botha has undertaken to respond in writing PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG JUDGE MALL 713 to certain requests from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and that being so, we do not consider it necessary for Mr P W Botha to be subpoenaed. We are advised that one or other of the applicants to amnesty will throw more light on the role played by Mr P W Botha and we think it appropriate, therefore, that we should not issue a subpoena on him. This decision of ours concerns the present application made by your attorneys. This Committee will be sitting for a considerable period of time and it is anticipated that it will be considering many, many more applications. What I said now, concerning your present application, is not to be a precedent for any future decision which we might take. It may transpire in the future that we might consider it necessary to subpoena some of the people whose names appear in your list at present. Yes, may we proceed? MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman. I just wanted clarity. So there is a subpoena to be issued in respect of Victor but not in respect of the remaining persons and you provided reasons for that. JUDGE MALL: Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG: I just want to separate them out. If I understand correctly, the following persons have applied for amnesty and therefore are not being subpoenaed. That is Brig. Schoon and the person identified as Tom Louw, Adriaan Vlok. I understand possibly also Buchner and Beukes. JUDGE MALL: My present information concerns Buchner. We have no information at this stage about Beukes. MR VAN DEN BERG: As the Committee pleases. Thank you Mr PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 714 ADDRESS Chairman. ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I may just place on record that according to Mr Wagner's list in respect of amnesty applications filed by him already, Brig. Victor's application appears there as No. JW0035. JUDGE MALL: Oh. ADV DU PLESSIS: It appears on the list. JUDGE WILSON: That doesn't relate to the events in which he's been mentioned here. In his affidavit which is filed he says, "In the light of this, I accordingly did not make application for amnesty". ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, obviously I am not saying that it relates to the incidents we testified about, but I am just drawing to your attention the fact that he is one of Mr Wagner's client and he has applied for amnesty. JUDGE MALL: Very well, we will bear that in mind. Thank you for drawing our attention to that. Yes, Mr Mpshe. ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. The matter to be dealt with today is the Zero Handgrenade and I leave that in the hands of my learned friend. ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will beg leave to call Brig Cronje on this matter, you will find his evidence on page 67 of his bundle of applications. JAN HATTINGH CRONJE: (sworn duly states) EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, may I proceed. Brig Cronje, could you please read out the first paragraph from page 68? BRIG CRONJE: During June of 1985, I was the Commanding Officer of Vlakplaas. I gave instructions to Col Venter to go with me to the East Rand. I would just like to mention PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 715 BRIG CRONJE something about this incident and this instruction. The operation of Vlakplaas was such that I had four groups who operated countrywide. Each group had an officer in charge along with their non-commissioned officer and a number of ascaris and at the beginning of each month they were placed out to various divisions such as, for instance, the East Rand, West Rand or Northern Transvaal or whatever the case may be. So this instruction to accompany me to the East Rand, I actually gave Venter and his group instructions to go to the East Rand and to assist the local branch and I would - it started with Venter for a week - so it's not entirely correct what I have said there. At that stage the East Rand was like the rest of the country, in total chaos. There were cases of arson, sabotage, unrest, murders, necklace murders, strikes and various forms of intimidation committed against members of the public especially by ANC and other activists. Actions were specifically aimed at the houses of policemen and at that stage there was an increase in attacks on policemen's homes. I then refer to the next paragraph, the operation of this particular group, what they were supposed to do in this group. The purpose was to be pro-active and to identify terrorists and activists and to search for them. The purpose was also to arrest them in terms of security legislation in force at that time. I am now speaking of the situation within the borders of the country, that was the normal working of such a group. ADV DU PLESSIS: Could I interrupt you here, Brigadier. Colonel Venter's group, was this group specifically sent to become involved in the operation about which you are about PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 715 BRIG CRONJE to testify, the Zero Handgrenade Operation, or did it entail a lot more than that? BRIG CRONJE: No. It wasn't specifically for this instruction because I had not yet been aware of this instruction. ADV DU PLESSIS: Please proceed on page 69. BRIG CRONJE: Whilst I was Springs, General v/d Merwe, he was then a Brigadier and second in charge of the Security Branch, he contacted me and requested me to come and see him the next morning at Security head office in Springs. Genera; v/d Merwe met me the next morning for a meeting at the office of Col. Delport, who was then the Divisional Commanding Officer for that division. At the meeting the following people were present, Gen. v/d Merwe, myself, Col. Venter, then Capt. Venter, Col. Delport - the Divisional Commander, and then Lt. Steenkamp. Mr Chairperson, after I had submitted my application for amnesty, I contacted Lt. Steenkamp and told him that I had mentioned his name in this connection, he then told me that he wasn't present when Gen. v/d Merwe gave the instruction but that he was the investigating officer in the matter after the incident and he then became aware of what the real situation was. So I assume and I will accept that perhaps I am confused in saying that he was present at the meeting. ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, in the fourth paragraph you explain exactly what was discussed at that meeting. Could you please tell the Committee about that? BRIG CRONJE: There were increasing attacks on policemen's homes and that was specifically discussed. Gen. v/d Merwe asked whether we could not infiltrate these activists. If we could do so we had to supply them with Zero Handgrenades, PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 716 BRIG CRONJE and those are handgrenades of which the ignition device has been set to a zero delay, so that as soon as you pull out the pin the hand grenade would then explode immediately. ADV DU PLESSIS: Who made this suggestion? BRIG CRONJE: Gen. v/d Merwe made the suggestion and he told me that it was done with the approval of Gen. Coetzee who was then, I think, the Commanding Officer of the Security Branch, Minister Le Grange, who was then the Minister of Police, and that was also done with the approval of the State President who was then Mr P W Botha. ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you at that stage in possession of any information relating to activists and their actions and could you tell us something about that? BRIG CRONJE: Information obtained at that stage by the Security Branch in Springs, was to the effect that there were activists in search of weapons, specifically to use in the attacks on policemen's homes and to kill policemen, it was also the information obtained from informers, I don't know who these informers were because I didn't handle the informers. ADV DU PLESSIS: Was that the information at the disposal of the Security Branch in Springs? BRIG CRONJE: Yes. And if I remember correctly they also knew the names of these activists. I may just explain that these Zero handgrenades worked as follows. I can't remember the exact date but there was an occasion on which we were allowed, in respect of a consignment of handgrenades, we were allowed to intercept this consignment and these grenades were sent to our training farm at Leeuwskop and during a course these handgrenades, or one of these handgrenades was used by the instructing officer during a PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 717 BRIG CRONJE demonstration. The hand grenade was a Zero Handgrenade which exploded immediately and a Col. van Eeden and some other members were seriously injured. ADV DU PLESSIS: Is that where the idea came from for the use of Zero Handgrenades? BRIG CRONJE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: Right, Brigadier, the information relating to the informers or what they had told you regarding activists who were interested in attacking policemen's homes, was that also discussed at the meeting? BRIG CRONJE: Yes it was. It was discussed by Col. Delport, I assume, because that was his department. ADV DU PLESSIS: Then on page 70 from the third sentence, could you please read that to the Committee, from the instruction. BRIG CRONJE: The instruction was given to use Zero Handgrenades and to supply the activists with these grenades. The reason for this was to protect innocent policemen and also to eliminate activists and terrorists involved in serious crimes and terrorist actions. The express instruction at that meeting was that Zero Handgrenades had to be supplied to terrorists and activists who requested weapons in order to eliminate them and to prevent attacks being launched on policemen's homes. The instruction was given on the context of the political battle which was being waged at the time, the general destabilisation by the ANC and other liberation organisation. The fact that the country was on fire, that there was unrest and general intimidation and strikes across the country, it was regarded as essential to act in this way under these circumstances and to eliminate the activists. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 718 BRIG CRONJE Gen. v/d Merwe made it very clear, however, that the way in which the operation had to be carried out, had to be such that the activists should not be solicited or enticed in any way, but that they should of their own accord make a request for weapons after which these handgrenades would be supplied to them. They would also have to act of their own accord and it should not be part of a process of training. And here I could mention, we are talking about a training process, Mamasela later told me that he did explain the operation of these handgrenades to them, how they had to pull out the pin and what would happen thereafter. ADV DU PLESSIS: Now, the second and third paragraphs on page 71 should actually be reversed. The third paragraph should come before the second one. Could you please read the third paragraph first? BRIG CRONJE: I went to Brig. v/d Merwe - or immediately after the instruction by van der Merwe was given, I then went with - I summoned Eugene de Kock because he was a good operator and he could assist me in the planning and the decisions which we had to make. Mamasela - well let me first mention this, that the names given to me by Springs, the names of the activists, I did not tell Mamasela these names because if he was to come to me with names, I then had a way in which I could verify his information. Mamasela then infiltrated a particular group of activists within a week. I think that one of the other members operated with Mamasela and if I remember correctly it was one, Nkala. He told me that they had asked him for weapons to attack policemen's homes and to kill them. I then gave instructions that Zero Handgrenades should be made available by Mamasela to those ANC activists. I sent Eugene de Kock to Pretoria to get PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 718 BRIG CRONJE these handgrenades. Mamasela also told me that there was one of these activists who wanted to blow up a power station in KwaThema and that he was looking for a bomb to be able to do this and for that reason I also requested a limpet mine which works on the same principle as the handgrenade. ADV DU PLESSIS: Now, the targets. The targets which the activists would have identified, how would they have identified these? BRIG CRONJE: The targets would have been chosen by themselves. Mamasela told me that these targets were policemen's homes. I believed him because I knew that he had never before worked in the East Rand and would not have known where the policemen lived. Now, I then sent De Kock to Pretoria to go and fetch the handgrenades and the limpet mine. He went and fetched it from our technical department and I assume that Gen. v/d Merwe, or one of the other officers there at head office, would have arranged it. After De Kock returned, I gave the handgrenades to Mamasela as well as the limpet mine and the handgrenades and limpet mine were then supplied to the ANC activists by Mamasela. Mamasela told me that he had given the weapons to the activists that very night, or would give them these weapons that night and he arranged a specific time and place for them. Mamasela said that the activists had already identified their own targets and that they were very excited about it. I have already said that it was acceptable to me because Mamasela didn't know where the policemen lived. On the same evening after the weapons were made available to the activists by Mamasela there were several attacks on policemen's homes. The activists involved killed themselves in the process or injured themselves. I can't remember how PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 719 BRIG CRONJE many were killed or injured. The activist who had received the limpet mine was also killed. Myself, Capt Venter, De Kock, Col Delport and Lt Steenkamp who I rectified just now, his position - yes, no Lt Steenkamp, and other members of the security branch were present in the area when these events took place and the only people who knew, the only people amongst those staff who knew that these grenades were Zero grenades and what would have happened were myself, Capt Venter, De Kock and Col Delport. As I said I will accept that Steenkamp didn't know at that stage. ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, you say that the only people who knew about the Zero handgrenades, are you referring here to the people who were the operatives as well? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, I am referring to the operatives. ADV DU PLESSIS: Were other people also aware? BRIG CRONJE: Yes. Gen. v/d Merwe, Coetzee and as I have said Le Grange and the SP, that is what I was told. JUDGE WILSON: Did Mamasela know? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, Mr Chairperson, he did know. Furthermore, I could mention that one of these activists decided not to continue with this instruction or the operation and he took his handgrenade and the next morning handed it into the attorney, Priscilla Jana, in Johannesburg. ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, you refer on page 73 to the names of the victims. Are these names known to you? BRIG CRONJE: No. ADV DU PLESSIS: And you further say, could you please read the second sentence. BRIG CRONJE: After the sentence, the names are currently unknown to me. Some of these injured activists were later PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 720 BRIG CRONJE prosecuted and charged. I don't know what the outcome would have been. ADV DU PLESSIS: Now Brigadier you set out the general justification and the political objective, you set these out from page 74 to the top of page 82. Do you confirm the contents as correct? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I confirm that. ADV DU PLESSIS: And then on page 82 you give a more specific setting out of the political objectives. Do you confirm that as correct? BRIG CRONJE: Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS: On page 83, you say in the second last sentence that you were told that some of these activists are currently in the employ of the South African Police? BRIG CRONJE: That is what I was told quite recently Chairperson. ADV DU PLESSIS: On page 84, you refer to the carrying out of the operation and on whose instruction that occurred. Could you please read that to us. BRIG CRONJE: Brigadier, now Gen. v/d Merwe gave me express instructions to use the handgrenades and to make these available to activists in order to eliminate them. It was a specific instruction from him. He told me that the instruction had been approved by Gen. Coetzee with the knowledge and approval of Minister Louis Le Grange and President P W Botha and it was done to prevent and combat attacks on policemen and these attacks were escalating at the time. ADV DU PLESSIS: Paragraph B, the last paragraph, could you read that? BRIG CRONJE: During about June of 1985 in Springs, Brig. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 721 BRIG CRONJE later Gen. v/d Merwe gave me express instructions to use these tactics and I was told that the matter had been cleared with Louis Le Grange who was very worried about the onslaught on policemen and that it met with his approval. President P W Botha was also aware of the operation. ADV DU PLESSIS: At that stage Brigadier, the particular operation, did you see this operation as prevention and combatting of crime or did you see it as an operation aimed against the Liberation Movements? BRIG CRONJE: I saw the operation as aimed at the Liberation Movements. ADV DU PLESSIS: For whose benefit did you think you were acting at the time? BRIG CRONJE: I acted to keep the National Party Government of the time in power. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Just for purposes of the record, I act on behalf of the following families who lost members or lost a family member during the course of this operation. We act on behalf of Philip Lukhele, he survived. On behalf of the family of Khulele Nocqwinta. On behalf of the family of Congress Mutsweni. On behalf of the family of Samuel Mashiane. ...(tape ends). ... Stephen Modisani. The family of Jabulani Mahlangu, and the family of Solomon Mashibane. Mr Chairman there were also other people who were killed during the process of this operation and I understand from my clients that they are opposed to these proceedings and that they are not participating and I understand that there are four or five other people including the policemen that the Brigadier has referred to. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 721 BRIG CRONJE Mr Cronje just for my information and for general background, when were you made the Commanding Officer at Vlakplaas? BRIG CRONJE: It would have been at the beginning of 1983. MR VAN DEN BERG : And until what time were you in charge at Vlakplaas? BRIG CRONJE: Until approximately October 1985. MR VAN DEN BERG : This incident occurred on the night of the 25th into the 26th June 1985, does that accord with your recollection? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, I remember June 1985. I cannot remember the exact date. If you say that, I accept it. MR VAN DEN BERG : If I understand your involvement in this matter correctly, you were the person who received an instruction from Gen. v/d Merwe and who conveyed that instruction and saw that it was carried out. Is that correct? BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG : You testified about Vlakplaas being divided into four teams and if I understood correctly, the team that was responsible for this operation was headed by at that stage you say Capt. Eugene de Kock? BRIG CRONJE: No Chairperson, it was under the command of Capt. Venter. Eugene de Kock at that stage was in Durban with his team. MR VAN DEN BERG : Perhaps I misunderstood you, you said that De Kock was called up from Durban. What then was his specific involvement in this matter? BRIG CRONJE: I said that De Kock was a good operative and I wanted him to support me in the planning and the execution thereof. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 722 BRIG CRONJE MR VAN DEN BERG : Was Mamasela part of his team? BRIG CRONJE: No Chairperson, he was part of Venter's team. MR VAN DEN BERG : The information that you received about the activists you received from the Security Branch at Springs? BRIG CRONJE: I got names from them Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG : This operation was discussed with the, if I understood you correctly, with the officer commanding the Security Branch at Springs, is that Col. Delport? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, Col. Delport, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG : He was aware that this operation was being planned? BRIG CRONJE: Yes he was present at the time we were instructed. MR VAN DEN BERG : And it was his office that provided you with information? BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG : Part of my instructions, Mr Cronje, are that my clients want to know who it was that identified them as targets for this operation. You can't assist them with that? BRIG CRONJE: I do not know who the informers were, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG : The other person who operated with Mamasela, your recollection was that his name was Nkala? BRIG CRONJE: I think it was Daniel Nkala. MR VAN DEN BERG : Do you know where this person is today? BRIG CRONJE: No, I do not know at all. MR VAN DEN BERG : Do you know whether he is still a member of the police force? BRIG CRONJE: I do not know. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 723 BRIG CRONJE MR VAN DEN BERG : These two people were instructed to infiltrate, who were they instructed to infiltrate? Let's get clarity on that. BRIG CRONJE: They were specifically to infiltrate the activists who were responsible for the attacks on houses of policemen. They were to find them and try and gather information about them and then infiltrate them. MR VAN DEN BERG : To whom did Mamasela report once he had infiltrated? BRIG CRONJE: To me, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG : And did he provide you with a list of names of the persons who were going to be involved in this action? BRIG CRONJE: Yes he did, Chairperson, and that tallied with the names which Col. Delport gave me. MR VAN DEN BERG : You were not present when Mamasela interacted with this group of activists, were you? BRIG CRONJE: No, Chairperson, not at all. MR VAN DEN BERG : You have no idea what he said to them? BRIG CRONJE: No Chairperson, but his instruction was expressed that he was not to solicit anyone. MR VAN DEN BERG : And you can't testify positively that he didn't in fact do that? BRIG CRONJE: No, I cannot. MR VAN DEN BERG : I am going to call Philip Lukhele to testify, he was one of the persons who survived and he was the person you referred to at the end of your testimony who took a handgrenade to the offices of Attorney Priscilla Jana, he will say that Mamasela identified the targets for them, the type of targets and that it was he who solicited and encouraged them to participate in this action. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 724 BRIG CRONJE BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson I cannot respond to the last question but I can respond to the first one and that was that Mamasela did not know where the policemen on the East Rand were residing. JUDGE WILSON: It wouldn't take him very long to find out would it, we have been told what an intelligent man he was? BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson, it was not only policemen in KwaThema but also at Duduza and other East Rand townships, although I cannot remember exactly which townships those were, but I do not think that he would have been able to find out something like that so quickly because he did not even know the policemen. MR VAN DEN BERG : It's not in your written application but you testified that there was some type of training given to these people, do you recall that? BRIG CRONJE: I recall having said that these handgrenades, these people were not to be subjected to these handgrenades during training, but he said to me that he showed them how a handgrenade was operated and that was by pulling out the pin and that was essential otherwise they would not have been able to execute the operation. MR VAN DEN BERG : We have heard that, certainly in respect of the KwaNdebele Nine that Mamasela was provided with arms, with handgrenades, presumably to impress the people whom he was interacting with. Did the same thing happen here? BRIG CRONJE: No Chairperson, I did not provide him with any handgrenades for this purpose. MR VAN DEN BERG : Philip Lukhele will state that they were given training, that they were taken to a remote place, that they were shown how these handgrenades operated and that in fact two handgrenades were thrown. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 724 BRIG CRONJE BRIG CRONJE: I would not know, Chairperson, but I did not provide Mamasela with any handgrenades to train them with. MR VAN DEN BERG : You testified that - well in your application you say that Steenkamp was present when the instruction was given, you corrected that in your oral testimony saying that he was the investigating officer, but did I understand you correctly to say that he was aware of this operation? BRIG CRONJE: He informed me that when he started the investigation he became aware of it. MR VAN DEN BERG : Philip Lukhele survived this incident, he was arrested, he spent approximately 20 months as an awaiting trial prisoner, he was convicted of sabotage and he spent four years in prison. BRIG CRONJE: I do not know but I say that some of them were tried and sentenced. MR VAN DEN BERG : This in an operation that was planned by the police, doesn't it offend your sense of justice? BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson, those persons decided on their own to attack a policemen's house by throwing a handgrenade and at that stage the only person who could do that, in my opinion, was a terrorist. He wanted to take lives of other persons. MR VAN DEN BERG : You armed him? BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG : Committee grant me a short indulgence? NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions? ADV. MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Colonel this group that was to be infiltrated by Mamasela, did it belong to any PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV MPSHE 725 BRIG CRONJE particular organisation? BRIG CRONJE: As far as I knew to the ANC, Chairperson. ADV. MPSHE: Is this the information given to you by Mamasela? BRIG CRONJE: No. It was information which I received from Col. Delport as well as Mamasela. ADV. MPSHE: Now, in your application you stated that the handgrenades were provided by the technical division of the Security Branch who in particular was responsible for that? BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson, I didn't hear too well. ADV MPSHE: You testified that the handgrenades were given to you by the technical division of the Security Branch, now my question is, who in particular provided them in this Branch? BRIG CRONJE: I am not too sure, but all I can say is Capt. or Col. Wahl du Toit was the head of this division at the time. ADV. MPSHE: In your meeting with the other members in Springs, was there no talk of a white nurse who was killed? BRIG CRONJE: No, Chairperson. ADV. MPSHE: Was this operation simply on the basis that the area was ungovernable and nothing else? BRIG CRONJE: It was done because policemen's houses were being attacked, Chairperson, and I testified to that. ADV. MPSHE: How will you respond to information that one of the main reasons why this operation had to be launched was because a white female nurse was killed in the area? BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson, I do not know anything about that but I would not have provided anyone with handgrenades simply because a white nurse was killed. JUDGE MALL: You were asked whether you were aware of the PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV MPSHE 726 BRIG CRONJE fact that Mamasela used handgrenades to train his victims on how to use them, you recall that? BRIG CRONJE: I remember that, Chairperson. JUDGE MALL: And you have told us that you didn't supply Mamasela with any handgrenades for that purpose? BRIG CRONJE: I did not, Chairperson. JUDGE MALL: It is possible, however, without your knowledge, for Mamasela to have acquired handgrenades which he was going to use to show to these youngsters how to use them? BRIG CRONJE: That is a possibility, Chairperson, I do not dispute that, but I would just like to say that I do not believe that he had easy access to handgrenades. JUDGE MALL: Yes. When you say he did not have "easy access" you are not saying that it was impossible? BRIG CRONJE: My instruction was that handgrenades were not to be made available to those groups and to ascaris but it is possible that he could have obtained handgrenades. JUDGE WILSON: On the question of handgrenades, counsel, as I understood it, asked you if Mamasela had been supplied with weapons as he was in the previous case of various sorts to train and encourage the activists. Your reply to that Colonel was "I didn't supply handgrenades to him", why did you concentrate on "handgrenades" when you were being asked about weapons in general? BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson, because in this specific instance, handgrenades were used and I concluded that those were the weapons which he was referring to. ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to note this. I have been since yesterday, I was informed by one of the other people who was sitting here, listening to the PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV MPSHE 727 BRIG CRONJE translation of the questions, from English to Afrikaans, that there was a problem with the translation. I have been listening to the translations now, since yesterday, since after Col. Venter's evidence when the problems occurred and this specific question you posed now was translated to the effect that the question was asked by me, which was not the case, it was asked by the other representative and the last part of the translation was also not 100% correct. I am just drawing that to your attention. I intend in proper circumstances to draw the cassettes and to provide you in argument with the translations so that one can see where confusion arose. JUDGE WILSON: I accept that entirely and in that case my question falls away because the question immediately before had been about "handgrenades" if there was some confusion, it is quite possible. ADV. DE JAGER: During 1986, the ANC took a decision that policemen and defence force persons were targets, were you aware of that? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, I was aware, Chairperson. ADV. DE JAGER: And did that have anything to do with the attacks on policemen? BRIG CRONJE: It would have had a great affect, Chairperson. MS KHAMPEPE: Brigadier, what was De Kock's involvement in the whole operation except that which you have testified, that he collected the consignment of the handgrenades from Pretoria? BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson, he merely assisted me with the fetching of the handgrenades, planning the operation and nothing beyond that. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MS KHAMPEPE 728 BRIG CRONJE MS KHAMPEPE: Did you find out from Mamasela how it had come about that a request for a consignment of handgrenades was made by the activist? BRIG CRONJE: Mamasela informed me that he had infiltrated these activists and that they had requested weapons, they did not specifically request handgrenade, but weapons, and we decided to make handgrenades available and no other weapons. MS KHAMPEPE: So, you did canvass this issue with Mamasela? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON: Before Mamasela infiltrated them, I don't know if I quite understood it, you had already decided, had you two tried to use these handgrenades? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON: So Mamasela infiltrated them on the basis that he was going to use "doctored" handgrenades to kill them and then comes back and tells you they've decided they want to use handgrenades, is that the position? Or they decide, sorry, he came back and said they decided they wanted to use weapons and you then said "give them handgrenades" is that the position? BRIG CRONJE: That is as it was, Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON: Thank you. ADV. DE JAGER: What I am going to ask you now is not with regard to the testimony which you just gave, but do you have any information which you can provide us with about the dealings of Trevits, were you ever involved in the inner-circle, do you know how they went to work? BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson, I was not in the inner-circle, I know about the broader workings of Trevits. ADV. DE JAGER: What do you know about them directly, did PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DE JAGER 728 BRIG CRONJE you ever receive instructions or information from them? BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson, no, no information but as I said in my previous testimony that I suspect that one of the cases was that, that was an instruction from Trevits. ADV. DE JAGER: Was it an internal or external instruction? BRIG CRONJE: It was an internal instruction. ADV. DE JAGER: With regards to the general information which you had about them, did they operate inland or out of the country? BRIG CRONJE: They started within the country but I think by 1986 - they initially started out of the country, but by 1986 they started operating within the country as well. ADV. DE JAGER: To which cases are you referring, when you say that they operated within the country as well? BRIG CRONJE: I am referring to the Ribeiro case. ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, just to set the record straight, as far as I can recall the evidence, he also testified in the Piet Ntuli matter that - not that he knows but that he has a suspicion that the order came from Trevits, so it was also in respect of the Piet Ntuli matter in October. BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE MALL: (...indistinct) RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: When Mamasela reported back to you, your testimony as far as I can recall was that he said that they were very keen and excited about the fact that they were now in possession of handgrenades? BRIG CRONJE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did Mamasela specifically say that to you? BRIG CRONJE: Yes he did. ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know if Mamasela was with each of PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 729 BRIG CRONJE these activists when they went out to throw these hand grenades? BRIG CRONJE: No, it was impossible. ADV DU PLESSIS: In other words, Brigadier, they acted on their own? ADV DE JAGER: Surely you would have had to have been at a reasonable distance. ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know if Mamasela forced them in any way to throw these handgrenades? BRIG CRONJE: No, Chairperson, it was at their own request. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you or any other person in the security branch force these persons to go out and throw these handgrenades? BRIG CRONJE: No. ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, according to you would there have been a possibility that innocent persons could have been killed or injured in these type of attacks? BRIG CRONJE: No, Chairperson. The chances that that could have happened were approximately zero, because it was early in the morning and there would have been no-one in the streets. ADV DU PLESSIS: But Brigadier, if they were to have thrown handgrenades in policemen's houses were there chances that their children or families could have been killed? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, if they had the proper handgrenades, without the zero detonators, then it would have definitely been a possibility. JUDGE WILSON: As I understand the position, the only people who were in danger would be the person pulling the pin out of the handgrenade or someone standing very close to him. BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, Chairperson. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 730 BRIG CRONJE JUDGE WILSON: Which one would imagine would be one of his gang. He is unlikely to take out a handgrenade in front of innocent people, is he? BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, Mr Chairperson. ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, can you recall at that stage, whether there were weapons which were being brought into the country and then made available to members of the Liberation Movements to commit acts of terrorism with? BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson, we had several case of DLB's where weapons were stashed and were later given back to the ANC, so they would have been able to obtain weapons. ADV DU PLESSIS: Would there have been a possibility, according to your whereby these persons would have been able to obtain weapons from operatives from other organisations? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, definitely, Chairperson. ADV DU PLESSIS: Would those also have included ...(tape ends) security forces back. Let us assume these 14 or whatever amount of persons had obtained handgrenades and had obtained them from an ANC or a Liberation Movement terrorist and had decided to execute these operations, what would you say were the chances that the security forces would have been able to stop these persons in time from - stop executing these operations? BRIG CRONJE: Approximately zero, Chairperson. ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, the last question. On page 75 you refer to the question of intimidation. Did this operation contain an intimidation motive? BRIG CRONJE: It would definitely have had intimidation as motive because it would have made other activists think twice before they touched a handgrenade again. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG JUDGE WILSON 731 BRIG CRONJE JUDGE WILSON: I want you to correct me if I have got the thing wrong but as I understand the operation the first point one would decide is that handgrenades are not used for innocent purposes, that if somebody wants to use handgrenades it is to attack other people with them. BRIG CRONJE: And to kill, Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON: Yes, when I say attack, I mean to kill, injure. And what you decided in this operation was you would have the handgrenades so prepared that if anybody tried to use them for this illegal purpose, they themselves would be killed. BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON: But as I understand your evidence, and I think it was also in the document we have received from Gen. v/d Merwe, there were instructions that nobody was to be enticed into using these handgrenades, they had to decide for themselves to do it? BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE WILSON: And as far as you were concerned the instructions that you gave was, there was to be no enticement. And you don't know of any? BRIG CRONJE: That is correct, Chairperson. MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Cronje, I also just want to confirm something. Mamasela, without a list from you, happened to infiltrate a host of young activists and by some shear coincidence the activists that he happened to infiltrate were keen to bomb policemen's houses? BRIG CRONJE: That is so, Chairperson. JUDGE MALL: I think that the coincidence my fellow Committee member is thinking about really, was the coincidence in the names on the list that Mamasela gave you PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG JUDGE MALL 731 BRIG CRONJE and the list that you had, that was a coincidence? ADV DU PLESSIS: May I please just come in here again. I have been listening to the translation again and the way you formulated it is correct but the Honourable Commissioner's questions wasn't formulated correctly that is why the witness didn't understand what the question was. MS KHAMPEPE: Though I think I may add that the coincidence is both in the names of the activist as well as their eagerness in bombing, particularly policemen's houses. BRIG CRONJE: Yes they were eager, Chairperson. ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, perhaps I should put the question to you in Afrikaans. The affect of the question is that it was said that it sounds as if it was coincidental that the activists which were infiltrated by Mamasela were activists who were involved in bomb attacks on policemen's houses, and it was also coincidental that they were very keen to obtain weapons to attack policemen's houses with. Can you comment on the coincidence? BRIG CRONJE: It was not coincidental because I did not provide Mamasela with any names and in his investigation he came to provide me with the same names, so it was not coincidental. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS ADV. DE JAGER: You had a list of say 20 names and he came back to you with a list of 20 names and those names corresponded? BRIG CRONJE: Yes, they did, Chairperson. ADV. DE JAGER: But he could just as well have come back with 40 names because there were more than 20 activists? BRIG CRONJE: I cannot recall if the names which he came back to me with were all the names which Col. Delport gave PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 732 BRIG CRONJE to me, but some of the names did correspond. JUDGE MALL: Thank you very much. BRIG CRONJE: Thank you Chairperson. JUDGE MALL: You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 733 COL VENTER ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I call Colonel Venter please. Mr Chairman, you will find that in Col. Venter's application on page 126. May I proceed, Mr Chairman? COLONEL VENTER: (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Very well, Col. Venter your application starts on page 127. You set out your application from page 127 to page 130. COL VENTER: That is correct, Chairperson. ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you confirm the correctness of these pages? COL VENTER: Correct, Chairperson. I would also just like to make one amendment with the name of Lt. Steenkamp. ADV DU PLESSIS: You have heard the testimony of Brig. Cronje. Do you confirm it as being correct? COL VENTER: Yes, I do. ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you, I have just asked you now with regard to Lt. Steenkamp. You heard the other testimony of Brig. Cronje specially with regard to your involvement in this incident, do you confirm his testimony as correct? COL VENTER: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. ADV DU PLESSIS: And your political objective and the general justifications which you have set out from page 149 to page 150, and more specifically page 152 to 153. Mr Chairman I may just mention that the last paragraph on page 153 is not correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: The last paragraph on page 153 relates to a different incident and it found its way to this incident, it deals with interrogations and it is not correct. JUDGE MALL: Is this paragraph marked 11A? ADV DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairman, the top paragraph on page PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 734 COL VENTER 153. JUDGE WILSON: You said the last paragraph. ADV DU PLESSIS: I beg your pardon, the top paragraph. I beg your pardon. JUDGE WILSON: Can we just scratch that out? ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes. COL VENTER: Page 134 to 144 deals with that. 145 according to me is Schedule 10 which is another application. ADV DU PLESSIS: My apologies. Thank you very much. Could you just repeat that? COL VENTER: From Page 134 the political objectives which was striven towards, are set out up until the end of page 144. ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I may mention that in my bundle was bound a little bit strangely, I don't know if your bundles have been bound also differently? Pages 130 - you will see it goes until 148 then pages 131 to 139 appear from there. I don't know if your bundles are correct? JUDGE WILSON: Mine finishes at 144 and 145 is a new application ...(inaudible) ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I beg your pardon, my bundle is bound wrongly, that is where the mistake came in. Sorry. Thank you Colonel. You confirmed the correctness of the political background. Let me just repeat. Do you confirm from page 134 to page 144 as correct. COL VENTER: That is correct, Chairperson. ADV DU PLESSIS: Very well. I beg your pardon, Mr Chairperson. It was my mistake. And then the instruction on page 144, do you confirm that you acted under the command of Gen. v/d Merwe. COL VENTER: Correct, Chairperson. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 735 COL VENTER ADV DU PLESSIS: And did you also act under the command of Brig. Cronje. COL VENTER: That is correct, Chairperson. ADV DU PLESSIS: Col. Venter is there anything else you would like to add with regards to your application? COL VENTER: Besides what I have said about Lt. Steenkamp, I have nothing. JUDGE MALL: Any cross-examination of this witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Venter, I do not fully understand what your involvement in this matter was. I understand that there was an instruction from Gen. v/d Merwe to Brig Cronje. I further understand that Capt. de Kock was summoned from Durban, that he assisted Brig. Cronje with the planning of this operation and the only involvement in respect of yourself that I can see is the involvement of one of your team members, Mr Mamasela. Am I missing something? JUDGE MALL: The question is, what was your involvement? MR VAN DEN BERG: Indeed so, Mr Chairman. COL VENTER: Chairperson, I was with Brig. Cronje from the beginning, I was also present at the meeting where the planning was done at Springs and I was with Brig. Cronje all the time from the beginning. MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you give any instructions arising from the instruction by Gen. v/d Merwe to one of your team members? COL VENTER: No, Chairperson, Brig. Cronje already testified that he was in charge of the entire group and that the instructions came from him. MR VAN DEN BERG: I still have a difficulty, what you are saying is that you were present when the instruction was PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 736 COL VENTER given, that you observed all of these proceedings, but that you had no active participation in the matter? COL VENTER: I did not say that I did not actively participate, I was not actively involved in throwing the handgrenade, but I was present during the whole process as Brig. Cronje testified before this Committee. MR VAN DEN BERG: Are you saying then that you made a contribution to the planning, that you contributed ideas and so forth? COL VENTER: Chairperson, I was present during discussions as Brig. Cronje said, for the first time in the office of the then commanding officer and thereafter I was present when he discussed and planned the whole incident. ADV. DE JAGER: If it could be regarded as murder, would you then be regarded as an accomplice as far as planning and executing? COL VENTER: That is correct, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions. Oh, he is not here. JUDGE WILSON: I am not quite sure of one aspect, did Mamasela report to Col. Cronje, Col. Cronje had taken command and you were just present, he didn't report to you. Is that the position? COL VENTER: That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE MALL: You are not calling any other witnesses? ADV DU PLESSIS: I am not calling any other witnesses, Mr Chairman. JUDGE MALL: Before you call witnesses, I am requested to adjourn for a short while, so we will adjourn for a very short while. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 737 MR LUKHELE COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman. I beg leave to call one of the survivors, Philip Lukhele. ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe, wouldn't you like to hand in something before starting? ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, may I request that I do that now in the event I am controlled by some forces again. Mr Chairman, it pertains to the police docket as well as the post mortem reports in this incident. I have a report here from the investigative unit dated 18 October 1996 to the effect that they could not find dockets nor even inquest reports or post mortem reports in this incident and they were told that's the contents of their report. They told us the same were destroyed a long time ago at the Springs magistrate offices. Just wanted the Committee to know that. JUDGE MALL: Thank you very much. ADV MPSHE: Thank you. That will be all. JUDGE MALL: Right you are. Will the witness be giving evidence in English? MR VAN DEN BERG: He will be testifying in Zulu, Mr Chairman. MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Lukhele, state your full names. MR LUKHELE: At the time I called myself Philip Mazuza. My name is Philip Jabulani Mazuza Lukhele. PHILIP JABULANI MAZUZA LUKHELE: (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Mazuza can you tell the Committee how old you are? MR LUKHELE: I am 32 years old. MR VAN DEN BERG: How old were you at the time when this incident took place? PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 737 MR LUKHELE MR LUKHELE: I was 20 years old. MR VAN DEN BERG: What were you doing at that time, were you working, were you at school what were you involved in? MR LUKHELE: I was at school. MR VAN DEN BERG: Standard? MR LUKHELE: Standard 7. MR VAN DEN BERG: And at which school were you? MR LUKHELE: At Lawani Matlabi(?) MR VAN DEN BERG: And in which township is that? MR LUKHELE: KwaThema. MR VAN DEN BERG: What else were you involved in, were you active in politics, were you a member of COSAS? MR LUKHELE: That is true, I was an organiser for COSAS. MR VAN DEN BERG: What can you tell the Committee about this incident. How did it come to be that you were involved? MR LUKHELE: On the 21st of June on a Friday, it was a night visual that is Sonto Thoba's(?) night visual in Duduza. I called Maakie Skosana from inside the hall, she told me that Congress Mutsweni was looking for me outside. The comrades that I was standing with, Paul Maruga, they said to me I shouldn't go outside because probably he was calling me for police because the police were looking for me at that time. And when I went out I got Congress standing next to a black Jetta. Inside the Jetta were two men. We got into the Jetta and they introduced themselves to me as James and Mike. They told me that they came from Zambia and that they had come to train us and they also promised me R10 000 as well as guns. MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I interrupt you Mr Mazuza? The people who were identified to you as James and Mike, do you know who they are now? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I do. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 738 MR LUKHELE MR VAN DEN BERG: Please tell the Committee. MR LUKHELE: It was James, it's Mamasela. I saw Mike in Duduza during the hearings. MR VAN DEN BERG: Alright, you said that these people promised you money and they promised you training. Please carry on with what you were telling the Committee. MR LUKHELE: They also said I should recruit other comrades with whom I was going to work and I recruited other comrades. I went to look for Stephen Modisani, Jabulani Mahlangu, Pofit Noncqwinta and I told them about what I had been told before. They could not believe it and I told them that there was going to be a meeting on Monday the 24, that is when the training was going to start. And just as I was going to the night vigil some police came and they sprayed teargas as well as rubber bullets and we broke the front door to get an escape route and we met the following morning. That particular morning I told them, it was on a Saturday, and we met on a Sunday at the Civic Centre, that's where we planned as to how we were going to meet these men and how we were going to work, then Monday arrived. On Monday they got us at a certain square at Highland. They were driving a combi, it was an E20 type of a combi, it had white curtains or white lace curtains. They took us to a certain disused mine in Tsakane and they showed us as to how to use those things. JUDGE MALL: Can I just disturb you for a minute. I'd like to know when you say "they took us" when you tell us "us" can you tell us who? MR LUKHELE: It was James and Mike as well as the other comrades that I had recruited from Duduza and Tsakane. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 739 MR LUKHELE JUDGE MALL: Yes, quite right, I wanted to know who, who were "us" who were your companions? MR LUKHELE: They were Jabulani Mahlangu, Stephen Modisani, Poffit Noncqwinta as well as myself. MR VAN DEN BERG: Were there other people present, other people you hadn't recruited? MR LUKHELE: No. MR VAN DEN BERG: You said that they took you to a disused mine at Tsakane. MR LUKHELE: That is correct. MR VAN DEN BERG: Please carry on. MR LUKHELE: When we got to the mine that is where they started showing us some handgrenades. The person who was showing us as to how to use the handgrenade was Mike. He actually dismantled the whole handgrenade and he showed us the pin or the head as to how to get it together and he showed us that it was now complete and he said he was going to count up to three, he counted up to three, he threw it and we threw ourselves on the ground - it exploded. The second one was given to Veli Mazibuko from Duduza. He also did the same, it exploded. JUDGE WILSON: Who is this person, Veli? MR LUKHELE: It's Veli Mazibuko. JUDGE WILSON: Where did he come from? MR LUKHELE: These were the comrades from Duduza and Tsakane - we were together from Duduza, Tsakane as well as KwaThema. JUDGE WILSON: But you were asked by the Chairman to tell us the names of your comrades, and you didn't, I don't think, mention this man? You only mentioned three names and you said there were no others. JUDGE MALL: You said Mahlangu, Modisani, yourself, PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 740 MR LUKHELE Noncqwinta. MR LUKHELE: We were mixed from Duduza, KwaThema and Tsakane. I did not know some of these members because we were a lot in the combi. JUDGE MALL: Alright, you tell us how many of you were all together in the combi, apart from the two people who came to fetch you. MR LUKHELE: There were quite many of us, we could probably have been 25 or 26 if I am not mistaken. MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Mazuza, the people you knew and the names that you have given, were those people from KwaThema? MR LUKHELE: Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG: And the people that you didn't know, where did they come from? MR LUKHELE: The other comrades were from Duduza and Tsakane. MR VAN DEN BERG: You told us about the training, what happened after that? MR LUKHELE: Then they promised us that they were going to give us money when we had come together and we went into the combi we drove off. We got off in Tsakane and the people from Duduza went with Mike and the other person. We took a taxi back to where we stay because they had told us at that juncture that we were going to hit our targets. JUDGE MALL: I am sorry about this, I don't think you should allow this witness to give evidence as he is giving, because I get the impression that it is either not in sequence or is disjointed, so I don't have a clear picture. Will you please put your questions to him from the stage where a demonstration - a handgrenade was thrown after the count of three, they all threw themselves to the ground and it PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 740 MR LUKHELE exploded. And he was about to say that a second grenade was used, from then onwards in sequence please, get the evidence. MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman. You told the Committee that Mike dismantled one of the handgrenades, that he showed you how it operated and that he threw one of the handgrenades, do you remember that? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I do. MR VAN DEN BERG: You also said that a second handgrenade was thrown? MR LUKHELE: That is correct, they gave it to Veli Mazibuka and he also threw it, it exploded. MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you receive any other training? MR LUKHELE: No. That was the only time we were trained. MR VAN DEN BERG: Were any other handgrenades thrown? MR LUKHELE: No, two only. MR VAN DEN BERG: Who identified the targets that these handgrenade ...(intervention) MS KHAMPEPE: Mr van den Berg, may I just interrupt here. MR LUKHELE: Mamasela. MS KHAMPEPE: Can I just ask the witness for the purposes of the sequence. How long ...(tape ends) JUDGE MALL: What happened after the second handgrenade exploded? MR LUKHELE: That is where Mamasela told us that we had to hit our targets. JUDGE MALL: What does that mean? MR LUKHELE: He said the targets were policemen's houses. He also mentioned the Power Station as well as Councillors' houses. MS KHAMPEPE: Are you saying, Mr Lukhele, that he identified PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 741 MR LUKHELE the targets that you would have to destroy? MR LUKHELE: No. He did not show us the houses, but he told us that we should target policemen's houses. MS KHAMPEPE: I am not saying that he showed you. I am asking if he identified what targets you would have to hit, whether he named what targets you would have to hit? MR LUKHELE: During the night he told us that we should go to a certain policeman's house and he named that particular policeman. JUDGE WILSON: When was this, you are now saying during the night? MR LUKHELE: I am now referring to the matter on the 25th that is at KwaThema when the other comrades were in Tsakane, the others were in Duduza at that time. JUDGE MALL: No man, no man please it doesn't work that way. MS KHAMPEPE: Try it on the Monday, that is the 24th of June and all these questions which are being directed at you are aimed at eliciting information about what happened on the 24th of June. So just confine your responses to the incident of the 24th of June, listen to your counsel when he asks you questions and respond to the question put to you. Mr Van den Berg? MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you. You said that the training took five or eight minutes. MR LUKHELE: That is correct. MR VAN DEN BERG: What happened immediately after the training? MR LUKHELE: Thereafter we were told that we should start dealing with our targets. MR VAN DEN BERG: What does that mean? MR LUKHELE: That meant that we should attack our targets. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 742 MR LUKHELE MR VAN DEN BERG: Did this discussion take place at the mine? MR LUKHELE: Yes, we were still at the mine. MR VAN DEN BERG: How were the targets identified? MR LUKHELE: On this particular day we were not given any further information. JUDGE MALL: You were just told to attack policemen homes, Councillors' homes and power stations that is what they were told. Carry on. MR LUKHELE: That is correct. JUDGE MALL: What happened after that? MR LUKHELE: Then we were taken into the combi. When we were in the combi we drove off, along the way that's where we were told about money, they promised us R10 000 each and that is where they took our names down as well as our addresses, and they said whoever was having problems should ask for help from them. MR VAN DEN BERG: When you say "whoever has problems" what do you mean? MR LUKHELE: They said that if we got arrested we should report to them so that they could get some legal advice or legal assistance for us. JUDGE WILSON: Did they tell you where to report to? MR LUKHELE: They never told us that. MR VAN DEN BERG: When they dropped you off, what did they say to you? MR LUKHELE: They said the following morning at 12.00 we should start attacking our targets and they were going to come at 7.00 o'clock in Thema and they would give us some handgrenades. MR VAN DEN BERG: Is that 12.00 o'clock in the afternoon or PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 743 MR LUKHELE 12.00 o'clock in the evening? MR LUKHELE: 12.00 o'clock - midnight. MR VAN DEN BERG: And where were you to meet them? MR LUKHELE: We were supposed to meet at the Highlands Square where they picked us up before we went to the mine. MR VAN DEN BERG: And what time did they say they would meet you? MR LUKHELE: They said they would come at 7.00 o'clock. MR VAN DEN BERG: Were you at the Highlands Square at 7.00 o'clock? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. We went there, we waited for them to 7, 8, 9 and they arrived around about 11.35 and they said they were looking for comrades in Duduza, that's where they got delayed and they said that we shouldn't be surprised that they arrived late. We got into the car and there was a certain girl by the name of Maakie Skosana, James and Mike, Congress Mutsweni as well as Jabulani Mahlangu. MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I interrupt you? When you talk about "they" are you referring to Mike and James? MR LUKHELE: That is correct, I am referring to Mike and James. MR VAN DEN BERG: Was there anybody else in the combi other than the people that you have already mentioned? ADV DE JAGER: Could kindly mention the names again, I couldn't catch them? JUDGE MALL: We couldn't catch them please. MR VAN DEN BERG: Will you tell the Committee who else was in the combi, you said there was Mike and James and you mentioned some other names, what were those names? MR LUKHELE: It was not a combi on the 25th, they came in a PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 744 MR LUKHELE black Jetta. MR VAN DEN BERG: And who was in the Jetta? MR LUKHELE: Mike and James, Maakie Skosana, Congress, Comrade Mutsweni...(intervention) MR VAN DEN BERG: Is that Congress or Comrade? MR LUKHELE: Congress Mutsweni. Mike said that in Tsakane they wanted Jabulani Mahlangu. They were going to work with him because Nocqwinta and another one were working in Tsakane. MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Mazuza will you just listen to my questions and answer my questions. You said to us that it was Mike and James in the motor vehicle, Maakie Skosana, Congress Mutsweni, was there anybody else? MR LUKHELE: Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG: Who was in there? MR LUKHELE: Do you mean in the car? MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes in the car. Who else was in the car, Just those four? MR LUKHELE: Yes, there were only four. MR VAN DEN BERG: And who were you with when you were waiting for the car? MR LUKHELE: I was with Stephen Modisani, Jabulani Mahlangu. MR VAN DEN BERG: Anybody else? MR LUKHELE: No it was only the two of us. MR VAN DEN BERG: Now you said it was about 11.35 when they arrived, when Mike and James arrived in the black Jetta? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. MR VAN DEN BERG: What happened then? MR LUKHELE: They got out of the car, they shook our hands, they told us that they wanted Jabulani Mahlangu from Tsakane to also come and help. Myself and Stephen Modisani agreed PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 745 MR LUKHELE with them. Maakie Skosana also shook our hands and said we would work well. They got into the Jetta and they went away. Before they went away ...(intervention) JUDGE MALL: Before we go any further, who got into the Jetta and drove off, give us names? MR LUKHELE: It was Jabulani Mahlangu. MR VAN DEN BERG: Who else? MR LUKHELE: Congress Mutsweni, Maakie Skosana as well as James and Mike. MR VAN DEN BERG: Before they left did they give you any instructions, what did you talk about? MR LUKHELE: Yes, they said we should go and bomb a certain house. MR VAN DEN BERG: What was the house, which house? MR LUKHELE: It was a CID's house at Mini Selcourt Section. MR VAN DEN BERG: Is that a part of KwaThema? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. MR VAN DEN BERG: Who accompanied you when you went there? MR LUKHELE: It was myself and Stephen Modisani. MR VAN DEN BERG: And, were you armed? MR LUKHELE: Yes, we had grenades. MR VAN DEN BERG: How many? MR LUKHELE: We had two grenades. MR VAN DEN BERG: Was that two each or one each? MR LUKHELE: One each. MR VAN DEN BERG: You went to Mini Selcourt what happened then? MR LUKHELE: We had watches, wrist watches on that particular day and at three minutes to twelve we heard the explosion of the grenade ...(intervention) PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 745 MR LUKHELE MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I interrupt you, sorry, you said you heard an explosion of a grenade, where was that explosion? MR LUKHELE: That is correct, I heard the explosion of a grenade. MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know where the grenade exploded? MR LUKHELE: No, I do not know where it came from. MR VAN DEN BERG: Was it one of the grenades that you had? MR LUKHELE: No, it wasn't one of the grenades that we had. MR VAN DEN BERG: Alright, I interrupted you, you said that you were in Mini Selcourt that at three minutes to twelve you heard and explosion, what happened then? MR LUKHELE: Stephen Modisani decided that he should throw the grenade so that when the policeman came out of the house he would actually throw the grenade at the policeman. Then he pulled - the grenade blew off, it exploded and we got injured - he got injured in his hands as well as my own hands, but I picked up my own handgrenade and ran away with it. At that time police were milling around already. I ran to the disused mine called "Five chack"? that is where I hid myself and I could hear the noise from the policemen. They were asking themselves as to where was I. I think I got out of the mine at about one, I was in so much pain and I was bleeding profusely. That is where I took the handgrenade and I dug a hole next to United new houses. I hid the grenade and I ran home. When I got home ...(intervention) MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I interrupt you again. You said that whilst you were hiding, you heard them calling, were they calling your name or who were they calling? MR LUKHELE: They were using my name and they were saying "Where is this other dog which ran away". MR VAN DEN BERG: You said you went home? PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 746 MR LUKHELE MR LUKHELE: Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG: What time did you get home? MR LUKHELE: I think it was past one. MR VAN DEN BERG: What happened to you when you got home? MR LUKHELE: I lost consciousness. MR VAN DEN BERG: And when did you wake up again? MR LUKHELE: I came to when I was at Roodepoort as Dr. Aswat's surgery. MR VAN DEN BERG: How did you get there? MR LUKHELE: I was taken there by my father. MR VAN DEN BERG: How long did you stay at the surgery? MR LUKHELE: I stayed there for two days, I was scared to go to the hospital. MR VAN DEN BERG: After two days did you go back home? MR LUKHELE: I went to Priscilla Jana's offices. MR VAN DEN BERG: What did you do there? MR LUKHELE: She hid me. MR VAN DEN BERG: What happened after that? MR LUKHELE: Time went on and I decided to go back home and as I was at home, they kept on telling me that the police were looking for me so I should not remain at home and the White men who were looking for me spoke Zulu. And it so happened that on one day whilst I was sleeping in the garage and the garage door went through to the sitting room, I was awoken up by my father saying that the policemen were already surrounding the house. They knocked at the door, I got into the ceiling, I hid myself there. They came into the house, they swore at my father. One of them was Brig. Cronje he was present, De Kock was also present, Sithole, CID Mbata, CID Dube, they called themselves the "A Team". That is where I was taken. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 747 MR LUKHELE MR VAN DEN BERG: Did they arrest you that day? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I take you back a little bit, what happened to the handgrenade that you had hidden away? MR LUKHELE: I took it and gave it to Priscilla Jana. MR VAN DEN BERG: Once you were arrested, what happened? MR LUKHELE: I was taken, they started assaulting me from my place, De Kock put a gun into my father's mouth so that my father could point me out and my father pointed me out and they started assaulting me. The one who seemed to be at the forefront of everything was Brig. Cronje. I was taken into the combi, it had silver windows which was very well known in the residential area as the "A Team". Outside there were 15 to 16 cars. That is where I was taken to a forest, my feet were handcuffed as well as my hands. MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you just take it a little more slowly, people have got to write notes. Once you were arrested, you say that you had been assaulted, were you charged, were you charged with any crime, did you appear in Court? JUDGE WILSON: Shouldn't we hear what happened in this forest first. We haven't heard a word about this before. I don't know if you had? MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Mazuza, you said that you were taken to a forest, can you tell us what happened there? MR LUKHELE: I was taken into the forest, they handcuffed both my feet as well as my hands. Brig. Cronje pulled me out of the car as well as De Kock. They put me on the ground, flat on the ground. They put some fire wood on top of me, they drained some petrol from the car. They said they were going to kill the dog and they were going to claim that the dog had run away. At that moment certain people who were PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG MR VAN DEN BERG 748 MR LUKHELE driving, who were riding bicycles asked as to what was happening. That is when these men took me, they put me into the van and they also sprayed me with teargas, they closed the door of the car, I was taken to the Denotto Police Station. I was assaulted further there. When I heard they said these "boers" were coming from PE they had been transferred to Downwater, they called themselves the "trapmak". The other black policemen whom I still remember and can identify was Jewel from Duduza he also assaulted me. That is where I was assaulted severely. I injured my left ear. I was also electrocuted in my private parts and they told me that the KwaThema Police Station was looking for me. I was taken to KwaThema Police Station at that juncture, that is where I was assaulted further and I had other charges, further 24 charges. I stayed in waiting trial as well as the State of Emergency, I stayed there for 20 months and 23 charges were laid against me. The 24th one gave me four years in jail as well as six lashes and five years suspended. MR VAN DEN BERG: Where were you imprisoned? MR LUKHELE: I was in Modderbee Prison and I was transferred to the Baviaanspoort and Pretoria. MR VAN DEN BERG: When were you released? MR LUKHELE: In 1991 or '92, I am not really positive. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG ADV DE JAGER: Mr van den Berg could you kindly clear up something for me. Were your instructions according to the evidence? MR VAN DEN BERG: Large portions, my instructions were in accordance with the evidence that has been led. Some of this that we have heard now, the finer detail, I am only hearing PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DE JAGER 749 MR LUKHELE for the first time now. ADV DE JAGER: Did you in fact put, the questions you put to Brig. Cronje was that related to your instructions or have you received other instructions since? MR VAN DEN BERG: Those were in accordance with my instructions, the questions that I put to Brig. Cronje. ADV DE JAGER: Did you perhaps by an oversight fail to put certain questions to him? MR VAN DEN BERG: No, Mr Chairman, I did not. JUDGE MALL: What injuries did you receive? MR LUKHELE: As I am showing you my hands, I was hit by splinters or splint. JUDGE MALL: And your companion who was with you at the time, what happened? MR LUKHELE: My friend died. JUDGE MALL: On the spot? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. JUDGE MALL: Mr Du Plessis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. When did you last see Maarkie Skosana? MR LUKHELE: I last saw her when she was in the black Jetta. ADV DU PLESSIS: You never saw her since that time? MR LUKHELE: No. ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know what happened to her? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I do. ADV DU PLESSIS: What? MR LUKHELE: She was burnt to death. ADV DU PLESSIS: Why did that happen? MR LUKHELE: She was burnt by the comrades from Duduza and I was not there, so I cannot tell you why was she burnt. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you hear people discussing her death, PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 750 MR LUKHELE did you hear that people - did anybody give you reasons why she died? MR LUKHELE: Yes, the people who burnt her were with me in prison. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did they tell you why she died? MR LUKHELE: Yes, they did. ADV DU PLESSIS: What did they say? MR LUKHELE: There were allegations that she was an informer. ADV DU PLESSIS: Who were those people? MR LUKHELE: It was Linda Hlophe, Phineas Maseko, I have forgotten the rest. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did they say why she was an informer? MR LUKHELE: Yes they did. ADV DU PLESSIS: And what did they say? MR LUKHELE: She was an activist but she was never arrested and Jewel the policeman I referred to before, they also told me about him, that he used to go to Maakie Skosana's place and I personally saw him one day because at times I would visit Maakie Skosana's place as a fellow comrade. ADV DU PLESSIS: But why did they say she was an informer, why? What did she do? MR LUKHELE: I said before that she was an activist and she could not get arrested or they didn't arrest her so she was giving the police some information about us. ADV DU PLESSIS: Was that the only reason? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you after that night with the handgrenade incident, did you ever speak to somebody about Maakie Skosana? MR LUKHELE: No I never did. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 750 MR LUKHELE ADV DU PLESSIS: Why not? MR LUKHELE: I don't get what you are asking me. ADV DU PLESSIS: I am asking you why didn't you speak to anybody about Maakie Skosana after that night, why? MR LUKHELE: At the time that I saw here in Duduza or at the time that she was in the Jetta at KwaThema, which period are you referring to? ADV DU PLESSIS: I am saying after the night of the handgrenade incident, did you speak to anybody about Maakie Skosana? MR LUKHELE: I spoke to the attorneys, my attorneys, that is Priscilla Jana. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you say to them anything about Maakie Skosana? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I told her about what happened and that I was called by Maakie Skosana and she was present in the black Jetta when they gave us the handgrenades. ADV DU PLESSIS: Sorry, I didn't get that. You were told that you were what by Maakie Skosana, that you were - caught, that is the word I heard, caught by Maakie Skosana? JUDGE WILSON: Called. ADV DU PLESSIS: Called, called. Can you repeat again to us, exactly what did you say to Priscilla Jana, what did you tell her about Maakie Skosana? MR LUKHELE: I told Priscilla Jana that Maakie Skosana was in the black Jetta at Thobela's night vigil as well as at the black Jetta, she was present when we were given the handgrenades. ...(tape ends) ADV DU PLESSIS: ... now about that? MR LUKHELE: Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS: And did you tell anybody else about that? PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 751 MR LUKHELE MR LUKHELE: No. ADV DU PLESSIS: Why not? JUDGE MALL: If he goes and tells his attorney that why should he go around the world telling everybody about it? ADV DU PLESSIS: Right Mr Chairman, I will follow a different line. JUDGE MALL: Please. JUDGE WILSON: Before you do, who was the person who called you from the night vigil? MR LUKHELE: It is Maakie Skosana. JUDGE MALL: Yes, do carry on. ADV DU PLESSIS: Now, afterwards, after the handgrenade incident happened, what did you think happened, what did you think caused the problem with the handgrenade? MR LUKHELE: I don't understand your question. ADV DU PLESSIS: Didn't you ask yourself the question "why did the handgrenade blow up?" Did you ask yourself that question? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I did ask myself thereafter. ADV DU PLESSIS: And what did you think? MR LUKHELE: I thought that as the people had told us that they were coming from Zambia they had probably given us defective handgrenades, probably they made a mistake, but as time when on, I realised that these grenades were coming from the police. ADV DU PLESSIS: Alright, and when you realised that the handgrenades came from the police what did you then think about James and Mike? MR LUKHELE: I thought that they were police but we did not know them. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you ask yourself why Maakie Skosana was PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 752 MR LUKHELE in the car the night they brought the handgrenades? MR LUKHELE: No, I never asked myself because she was a fellow comrade as far as I was concerned. ADV DU PLESSIS: So are you saying to us that you never suspected Maakie Skosana of being, of working together with James and Mike? JUDGE MALL: At what stage? ADV DU PLESSIS: At the stage when they brought the handgrenades to you, you never suspected Maakie Skosana at that stage? MR LUKHELE: Not at that stage. ADV DU PLESSIS: And thereafter you also never suspected her? MR LUKHELE: Thereafter I did suspect. ADV DU PLESSIS: So am I right in saying after you heard that other handgrenades blew up and you thought it was the police you thought Maakie Skosana worked together with them? MR LUKHELE: I suspected that when I heard that they were burning houses because I was not present and I asked myself as to how she survived, because we were all injured as comrades and I asked myself as to how she escaped those attacks because she was also a comrade. ADV DU PLESSIS: And when you asked yourself this question how did she survive, did you discuss it with your friends, with the other comrades? MR LUKHELE: I never asked them. ADV DU PLESSIS: Why not, I don't understand it? JUDGE MALL: Let's put some limitation in this cross-examination. How does it advance your case, Mr du Plessis? Please, the fact of the matter is that this woman was burnt according to what I have heard from you now, because she was PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 753 MR LUKHELE suspected of being an informer, what about going into all the details in that regard, what is the purpose? ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I am trying to determine in how far this person was responsible for her death, but if you limit me in the cross-examination, I'll do that. JUDGE MALL: I think that you should just realise the limits yourself, please. ADV DU PLESSIS: As it pleases you. Now, can you tell us exactly when was the first time that the question of money was mentioned to you by Mike and James? MR LUKHELE: They told me whilst I was alone in the black Jetta in Duduza and they told us when we were at the disused mine together with the other comrades from KwaThema and Duduza. ADV DU PLESSIS: And exactly what did they say about the payment of the money, how much would it have been? MR LUKHELE: They said they would give us R10 000 each. ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me, please. Alright, so am I right in - do I understand you correctly, the first time they said they were going to pay you money was the time when they arrived there with the black Jetta? Was that the first time or was that the second time? MR LUKHELE: The first time they told me was in Duduza when Maakie Skosana came to fetch me at the night vigil of Sonto Thobela and that is when they first mentioned the money that they would give me, R10 000 as well as a shotgun. ADV DU PLESSIS: As well as a short gun, a shotgun, a shotgun is that what you are saying? MR LUKHELE: Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS: Right, now did they offer you anything else PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 754 MR LUKHELE apart from the money and the shotgun at that time? MR LUKHELE: Nothing else. ADV DU PLESSIS: Right, now, you were an activist weren't you? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: You were a comrade? MR LUKHELE: I was an organiser for the Students Congress. ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, but the people involved with COSAS were comrades, isn't that true, you called yourself a comrade, isn't that true? MR LUKHELE: We referred it to the Congress of South African Students. ADV DU PLESSIS: So you were not a comrade? MR LUKHELE: I was a comrade as well as an activist of the Students Congress in KwaThema. ADV DU PLESSIS: And this Student Congress in KwaThema, what were they doing at the time? MR LUKHELE: They were involved in peaceful demonstrations, we were also members of the SRC, Release Mandela Campaign. We were doing quite a number of things. ADV DU PLESSIS: Well give us some detail. MR LUKHELE: Firstly, we were Freedom Fighters, I was a member of the SRC, we were from different backgrounds and they needed school uniforms at certain schools and we were fighting that school uniforms be made not compulsory, as well as school fees because the education that we had was not up to standard, as well as rent matters that we were addressing. We also wanted Mandela to be released and we wanted to recognise him as our Leader. That is all. ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you fighting apartheid? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 754 MR LUKHELE ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you fighting the National Party? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I was. ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you fighting the "boere"? JUDGE WILSON: Didn't he say something about government there? ADV DU PLESSIS: I am not sure, Mr Chairman, I ..... JUDGE WILSON: I heard the word Government, it wasn't given up? ADV DU PLESSIS: Can I repeat the question. Were you fighting the National Party? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you fighting the government of the day? At that time? MR LUKHELE: That is so. ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you fighting the "boere"? MR LUKHELE: I was not fighting the "boere" I was fighting what they were doing and the unjust treatment. ADV DU PLESSIS: And at that time did you know of the existence of the African National Congress? MR LUKHELE: I did. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you support the African National Congress? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you support the UDF? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: And did you support what the UDF and the ANC were doing at that time? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I was supporting it, because at the time the government didn't want to listen to the masses as far as negotiations were concerned. ADV DU PLESSIS: And the other people who were with you, PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 755 MR LUKHELE involved in this incident which you testified about, did they feel the same as you? MR LUKHELE: Which people? ADV DU PLESSIS: All the people you named, Mahlangu, Modisani, Noncqwinta all the other people, Mazibuka the other people you mentioned, did they feel the same as you? MR LUKHELE: That is correct, we were all Freedom Fighters. ADV DU PLESSIS: And now, being a Freedom Fighter, there were different kinds of people in the townships then, there were people who didn't want to get involved and there were people who were Freedom Fighters, is that correct? MR LUKHELE: Many people realised thereafter, like parents, parents were complaining that we should not do it, but later on the police organised....... ADV DU PLESSIS: And at that time, were the police in the townships, can you remember, did the police go to the townships? MR LUKHELE: Yes, they were present. ADV DU PLESSIS: And what did they do there? MR LUKHELE: Black policemen were the ones who were selling us out, they were telling Brig. Cronje and his friends as to where we were staying, because they knew us. ADV DU PLESSIS: Why would they give information about you to Brig. Cronje? MR LUKHELE: I think they were protecting the apartheid regime. ADV DU PLESSIS: Now, when the policemen came into the townships, did they spread teargas sometimes, did they shoot you with rubber bullets, the people in the townships? MR LUKHELE: Yes, where we were having peaceful demonstrations we were shot at, even though we were PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 756 MR LUKHELE demonstrating peacefully, we were shot at. ADV DU PLESSIS: And then the Freedom Fighters, what did they then do, when that happened? MR LUKHELE: I don't know who you are referring to. ADV DU PLESSIS: I am referring to the Freedom Fighters in the townships, that the police came and they threw teargas and they shot the people with rubber bullets, what did the Freedom Fighters do, did they run away and stop their meetings? MR LUKHELE: Yes, we would run away, at times we would throw stones at them. ADV DU PLESSIS: And you threw stones as well? MR LUKHELE: Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS: And if you got hold of a police car, if the police car broke down or stopped, did you see people burning the police vehicles? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I have seen people because the police were not listening even though we were demonstrating peacefully. They would shoot at us even at a funeral, they were not cooperative, they would throw teargas and rubber bullets, shoot at us, provoking us. ADV DU PLESSIS: It was really the Freedom Fighters who fought the police, is that correct? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: And you as a Freedom Fighter, you also burnt vehicles? MR LUKHELE: No. ADV DU PLESSIS: Why not? MR LUKHELE: I would throw stones when they were shooting at us whilst demonstrating peacefully. ADV DU PLESSIS: So was it only the real Freedom Fighters PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 757 MR LUKHELE who burnt the vehicles? MR LUKHELE: I won't say anything on their behalf. ADV DU PLESSIS: Right, and the Black policemen, the Black policemen, did you know some of the Black policemen in the township? MR LUKHELE: Yes I knew some of them. ADV DU PLESSIS: Tell us again, what did you think of them? MR LUKHELE: The Black policemen were troublesome and they were giving the White policemen information as to our residential addresses for they were residing with us in the same residential areas. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did the people want them in the township or did the people want them out of the townships, the Black policemen? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. We would just wish that they could leave the location, Black residential areas. ADV DU PLESSIS: Were there people who wanted to kill them? MR LUKHELE: The Community at large, itself, wanted to kill them. ADV DU PLESSIS: And you yourself, as a Freedom Fighter, you also wanted to kill them? MR LUKHELE: No. ADV DU PLESSIS: So, most of the people wanted to kill them but you didn't want to kill them, is that right, do I understand you correctly? MR LUKHELE: I tell you I used to throw stones. ADV DU PLESSIS: Now, alright, tell us about that evening with the handgrenades, you and your friend went with the two handgrenades, is that correct, where did you go to? MR LUKHELE: We were going to Mini Selcourt, the two of us. ADV DU PLESSIS: Repeat again, please. Where did you go to PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 758 MR LUKHELE with the handgrenades? MR LUKHELE: At Mini Selcourt section in KwaThema. ADV DU PLESSIS: What is that? MR LUKHELE: Those are new areas and usually bond areas, where you pay bond. ADV DU PLESSIS: Alright. JUDGE MALL: Mr v/d Berg, you might be able to clear it, what is the word Municell? MR VAN DEN BERG: He is referring to an area of KwaThema called a "Mini Selcourt" - Selcourt is one of the better suburbs in Springs and it is a reference. JUDGE MALL: So it's called Mini Selcourt. Thank you. ADV DU PLESSIS: And who was living there? MR LUKHELE: You mean the particular house that we went to or you are asking the Mini Selcourt at large? ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, the particular house, was there a particular house that you went to? MR LUKHELE: CID Roy. ADV DU PLESSIS: Who was living in that house? JUDGE MALL: CID Roy. ADV DU PLESSIS: CID Roy, I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I didn't realise was that a name? JUDGE MALL: CID meaning policemen. Roy is his name. ADV DU PLESSIS: Roy, is that his name? MR LUKHELE: Roy is his name, I don't know his surname, he is a CID. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you know him? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I knew him. ADV DU PLESSIS: Was he one of the policemen who gave information? MR LUKHELE: Yes, he is one of the police who used to shoot PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 758 MR LUKHELE the students in KwaThema. ADV DU PLESSIS: And why did you go to his house? MR LUKHELE: We wanted to eliminate him. ADV DU PLESSIS: He was a policemen and you wanted to kill him, is that correct? JUDGE MALL: He used the word your clients have been using. ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, yes, eliminate. I didn't mean anything by the difference, I could ask the question with the word eliminated. JUDGE WILSON: I should think so. ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, slight, so when you told us previously that you didn't want to kill the policemen who gave the information you were wrong, is that correct? Because at this night you went to kill the policeman, is that correct? MR LUKHELE: I was telling the truth, I did not want to kill the policeman, but after seeing that all my fellow comrades were dying therefore I decided to join the rest and intent to kill police because they were informers and after that they will come and shoot us in the location, the Black residential areas. ADV DU PLESSIS: So, even before you went out that night, before you got the handgrenades, you had already decided that you were going to kill policemen, am I right? MR LUKHELE: We were told by Mamasela to go there to that particular house and I realised that, that this is the policeman who was taking part in the killing in the Black residential areas. ADV DU PLESSIS: Who decided to kill this policeman? MR LUKHELE: We decided that we are going to kill the police, all of us had this one intention to kill him. ADV DU PLESSIS: Who do you mean, who is all of us? PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 759 MR LUKHELE MR LUKHELE: Myself and Stephen Modisani. ADV DU PLESSIS: And when did you make this decision? MR LUKHELE: We decided that very night. MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Lukhele can I just clear something with you. Did Mamasela identify Roy to you for elimination or he simply said you must go and kill Black policemen without identifying the names of such policemen? MR LUKHELE: He told us to go to CID Roy. JUDGE WILSON: That was to bomb the house, wasn't it? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. JUDGE WILSON: But you two decided you were going to do more, you were going to make sure you killed the policeman, is that so? MR LUKHELE: We were just going to bomb the house. JUDGE WILSON: But that is not the evidence you gave earlier, you told us earlier, my recollection and my note that Stephen said he was going to throw the grenade and then he would get the policeman when he came out of the house, didn't you say that? MR LUKHELE: I said that because he is the one who threw the grenade and I said I will throw mine thereafter. JUDGE WILSON: When the policeman came out? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: So you wanted to kill the policeman on that night, is that correct? MR LUKHELE: Yes. We wanted to kill him because he was also killing our brothers. ADV DU PLESSIS: Now, let us just make sure about the reason why you wanted to kill him. You said he was killing your brothers, you said he was one of the people who shot at the people in the township, is that correct? PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 760 MR LUKHELE MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: Were those the reasons why you wanted to kill him? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: And you testified just now that at some stage you saw the policeman killing the people and you were very unhappy about the way the policemen acted? MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: But you never before intended to kill a policeman? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: And the other people in your group, did they also want to kill policemen? MR LUKHELE: I had said it, that I am talking on my own behalf and Stephen, as for others I won't say a thing on their behalf. ADV DE JAGER: Here at the meeting on the Sunday, you told us about the meeting on the Sunday where you and your comrades discussed what you were going to do. Is that correct? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DE JAGER: That was after you have had this lesson about handgrenades the previous day? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DE JAGER: Now, that meeting, what did you decide what are you going to do? MR LUKHELE: We were just KwaThema comrades and we told ourselves that we were going to attack, bomb police houses as we have been told by Mamasela. ADV DU PLESSIS: So when were you told before that meeting by Mamasela about bombings? PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 761 MR LUKHELE MR LUKHELE: When we went to undergo training and when we were in KwaThema he was in the Jetta. ADV DU PLESSIS: Now, when was the first time Mamasela said anything to you about bombing policemen's houses and things like that, when was the first time when that was said to you? MR LUKHELE: As for me, he told me when I was in the black Jetta. MS KHAMPEPE: Was that at Thobela's night vigil? Was that on the day when you were attending the night vigil at Thobela's house? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. MS KHAMPEPE: And that would be on the 21st June? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: You see because when you testified you said that the two men in the Jetta introduced themselves as James and Mike and they said they were coming to train you and they offered you money, that is what you testified? MR LUKHELE: Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS: Are you saying now that they said more than that, are you saying now that they also said that they were coming to train you to kill policemen? MR LUKHELE: Yes. We were talking, you know, it was more of a discussion that we had, now I have forgotten some of the things that we might have discussed. ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you remember who were all present at that discussion? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I do remember. ADV DU PLESSIS: Who was that? MR LUKHELE: Congress Mutsweni, Mike and James and myself. ADV DU PLESSIS: And can you now tell us what was discussed PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 762 MR LUKHELE at that meeting? MR LUKHELE: They introduced themselves to us and they told me they were coming from Zambia and they were going to train us and we should target police houses and the power station and the Councillor's houses and they will give me R10 000 and a shotgun and I have forgotten some other things that we talked about. ADV DE JAGER: Did they at that stage ask you to get other people involved or were you the only one to do all these tasks? MR LUKHELE: They assigned me to go and get other comrades, fellow comrades that we will work collectively with. ADV DE JAGER: Yes, could I come back to the Sunday meeting. Mike and Mamasela and the other person wasn't there that day? MR LUKHELE: They were not there. ADV DE JAGER: So it was only a meeting of comrades? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DE JAGER: At that meeting you decided to carry out or to carry out what he told you and to kill the policeman? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DE JAGER: Did you discuss at that stage that each one of you should identify a house so that you could know where to go to? MR LUKHELE: At that time, he had already told us. I was supposed to work with Jabulani Mahlangu and Stephen Modisani and Nocqwinta and it was impossible because they were to go and work in Tsakane, but he had already told us what to do. ADV DE JAGER: How many houses did he give you the addresses of? JUDGE MALL: When you say "you" meaning him personally? PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 763 MR LUKHELE ADV DE JAGER: Yes. How many - at the meeting did every one of you exactly know to which house you should go, or did you decide there? MR LUKHELE: At the meeting he told us where we were supposed to go. JUDGE WILSON: You've told us he was not at the meeting, we are talking about the meeting on Sunday. ADV DE JAGER: Yes, the meeting on Sunday. MR LUKHELE: No, I was thinking you were referring to the meeting at the mine. MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Lukhele the meeting referred to is the meeting which you have said you held at the Civic Centre, remember when you gave your evidence? MR LUKHELE: I remember. MS KHAMPEPE: Was Mr Mamasela present at that meeting? MR LUKHELE: No he wasn't present. MS KHAMPEPE: Who attended that meeting, was it only the comrades of KwaThema or you also had comrades from Tsakane and Duduza? MR LUKHELE: No, we were all from KwaThema. ADV DE JAGER: How many of you were there? MR LUKHELE: We were only four. ADV DE JAGER: And did you identify police that you specially wanted to kill because you hated them more than other police? MR LUKHELE: We did identify some police that we wanted to attack. MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Lukhele what was the purpose of convening that meeting at the Civic Centre? MR LUKHELE: It was to discuss, to tell ourselves that we should be sober and no-one should delay and no-one shall PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 763 MR LUKHELE take any liquor and we should be sober and undertake this operation. I don't remember some other details. MS KHAMPEPE: You have spoken about having promised R10 000 by Mr Mamasela? MR LUKHELE: Yes. MS KHAMPEPE: Well, by James, I suppose, that's how he introduced himself to you and this offer was made on the 21st of June 1985, and that was when he met with you at the night vigil of Thobela's place, now did he indicate to you why you would be paid R10 000? MR LUKHELE: He said I should not tell anyone because it was myself, Congress Mutsweni and James and Mike and he said I should not tell anyone, I should get fellow comrades who are also trustworthy and he will give me R10 000. MS KHAMPEPE: Just listen to my question Mr Lukhele, why would you have been paid R10 000 by James? I just need you to respond to that question, and to that question only. MR LUKHELE: He was going to pay us R10 000 so that we shut our mouth and not say anything. MS KHAMPEPE: About what? Why should you be silenced to talk about what? MR LUKHELE: He said this thing should not reach the police. MS KHAMPEPE: What should not reach the police? At that stage you had only been told that you should go and recruit people that you had utmost trust on. MR LUKHELE: He said I should not tell anyone, I should only tell this to the comrades that I trusted and he will give us R10 000. We should keep this secret. MS KHAMPEPE: So you would have been paid R10 000 to keep quiet? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 764 MR LUKHELE JUDGE MALL: Mr du Plessis have you finished cross-examining this witness? ADV DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairman, I am nearly finished, Mr Chairman, I am nearly finished, Mr Chairman. Thank you very much. Now the - on that Sunday, the four of you were there the Sunday, the Sunday meeting, the four of you were there, did you speak about the targets and the policemen you were going to attack? MR LUKHELE: Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS: And did you there decide who would attack which target? MR LUKHELE: Yes, we had already decided as to who to attack but it never materialised. ADV DU PLESSIS: What I want to know is did you decide on that day, did you speak about it and decide on that day and decide who would attack which target? MR LUKHELE: Yes, we decided on that day. ADV DU PLESSIS: And what targets did you speak about there, can you remember which targets? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I do remember. ADV DU PLESSIS: Which targets, tell us? MR LUKHELE: The person we wanted the most was Sgt. Sithole. ADV DU PLESSIS: And others? Which others were discussed? MR LUKHELE: I don't remember others, but the main person we wanted the most was Sgt. Sithole. ADV DU PLESSIS: And when Mike and James discussed the previous evening when they arrived with the Jetta and they talked about the military training, what did they say to you about targets? MR LUKHELE: They said we should target the police houses, Councillors' houses, the power station and that is it. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 765 MR LUKHELE ADV DU PLESSIS: You see, Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me, please, you see, because when you testified, when you gave your evidence, you testified that Mike and James told you after they had shown you how the handgrenades worked, they told you that you had to hit policemen's houses, Councillors' houses and power stations, you didn't say in your evidence-in-chief that they said that to you on that night when they approached you in the Jetta for the first time. Can you explain to us why there is a difference? MR LUKHELE: Where they told us that we should target police houses, I was actually alone and Congress Mutsweni and the two of them in a Jetta, that is when they introduced themselves to me and I had not recruited other comrades I was going to undertake this operation with. ADV DU PLESSIS: Alright, when military training was mentioned to you and as you say it was mentioned that police targets and other targets should be hit, how did you feel, did you feel eager to do that, did you want to do it or did you feel unhappy about it? MR LUKHELE: I felt good because of the fact that police were troublesome, I was sick and tired then about the police. ADV DU PLESSIS: And that is also why you testified that the other comrades couldn't believe it that Mike and James said that they will give you training, they were also happy, isn't that so? MR LUKHELE: Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS: And on that Sunday when you had that meeting, you discussed that you would kill the policemen, is that correct, or eliminate them? MR LUKHELE: We discussed about Sithole, Sithole was the PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 766 MR LUKHELE main person we aimed at, Sgt. Sithole. ADV DU PLESSIS: You discussed killing him, on that Sunday? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. We had told ourselves that we are going to Sithole's house. ADV DU PLESSIS: And was this Sithole, was he the policeman who lived in the house that you and your friend went to with the handgrenades, was that the Roy policeman? MR LUKHELE: No. Sithole is not Roy. That day we told ourselves that we are going to target Sithole, but Mamasela told us to go to Roy, when he was bringing the handgrenades. ADV DU PLESSIS: And you wanted to kill Roy that night is that correct? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: Right, I just want to understand this 100% clearly. If the first handgrenade had gone into the house and Roy had come running out, you would have thrown the second handgrenade to Roy and killed him? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I would have done exactly that. ADV DU PLESSIS: So there before your friend pulled out the pin of the first handgrenade, you had already decided you were going to kill Roy, is that right? MR LUKHELE: Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS: And at the mine, that day at the mine, when you were - you said about, I think 25 people, is that correct, were you 25 people at the mine? MR LUKHELE: I did say that, I am not too sure about the figure, but maybe round about 25. ADV DU PLESSIS: And all the people there at the mine, did they already identify policemen that they wanted to kill or targets? MR LUKHELE: I wouldn't know that much. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 766 MR LUKHELE ADV DU PLESSIS: Didn't you discuss it with them there? MR LUKHELE: We didn't discuss that, we were just given instructions by Mamasela. ADV DU PLESSIS: Was there anybody after Mamasela had shown you the working of the handgrenades and after he had said you must hit policemen and Councillors' houses, etc. was there anyone at that meeting that said "no, we are not going to do that, I am not going to participate in this"? MR LUKHELE: No-one and we were not shown the handgrenade by Mamasela it was Mike. ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, alright, Mike - when you were shown the hand grenade by Mike. So nobody said "No, I am not going to hit policemen's houses, I am not going to hit Councillors' houses" nobody said that? MR LUKHELE: No-one said that. ADV DU PLESSIS: They were all happy with what was said by Mike? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me, please. Now, this whole story of yours, well your version if I can put it like that, about at your father's house, that you say Brig. Cronje came in there, they took you into the forest, they put wood onto you, did you explain that to your legal representatives before today, before you testified today? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I did. ADV DU PLESSIS: So you don't know why they didn't say to Brig. Cronje, "Why did you put wood on my client's body", you don't know why they didn't confront Brig. Cronje with that, do you? MR LUKHELE: Yes. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 767 MR LUKHELE ADV DU PLESSIS: I just want to put to you that Brig. Cronje has informed me, I am doing this because it wasn't put to Brig. Cronje during cross-examination that you would come and testify this, but I am putting it to you that Brig. Cronje informed me that he left the following day after the incidents happened, he and De Kock left the area, that area completely. I put that to you. MR LUKHELE: That is a blatant lie, he is lying that is a green lie. ADV DU PLESSIS: Why do you say he is lying? MR LUKHELE: I saw him, I saw him at my home, he was there in person and he is the one who arrested me, wanting the handgrenade. JUDGE WILSON: I take it as the witness did, that when you put that, you meant that he left and he didn't return. That he didn't participate in this? ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, that is how I understood it, I just want to take instructions personally, my attorney took the instructions. Yes Mr Chairman, it is on that basis that I am putting it, he never returned. I am putting to you that Brig. Cronje says that he never returned and that he never arrested you? MR LUKHELE: He knows he is lying through his teeth because he actually arrested me. ADV DU PLESSIS: Well then I find it strange that your legal representatives didn't put it to Brig. Cronje, but I will leave it at that. Mr Chairman, I just want to make sure if there are further questions. Do you know why Mike and James came to call you that first night when they came to discuss with you when they came with the black Jetta, why did they contact you? PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 768 MR LUKHELE MR LUKHELE: I don't know. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did they say to you why did they contact you? MR LUKHELE: They didn't say. ADV DU PLESSIS: And these other comrades that you contacted, did you know them all? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I did. ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you friends with them? MR LUKHELE: Yes, we were. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did they listen to you? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you their leader? MR LUKHELE: I was an organiser. JUDGE WILSON: What does that mean? MR LUKHELE: For instance if the comrades from Balfour came to visit us, I would look for a venue to accommodate them or go to the Civic Centre and we would provide meals as well as transport for them. ADV DU PLESSIS: Why did Mike and James ask you to get the other comrades together, why did they ask you, do you know? MR LUKHELE: I think they know, but I don't. ADV DU PLESSIS: Don't you know why they didn't do it themselves? MR LUKHELE: I do not know, because they came with comrade Congress. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did they know the other comrades in that area, did they know the other comrades that you got together? MR LUKHELE: No, they didn't know them, or maybe they knew them, I wouldn't be sure. JUDGE WILSON: Can I interrupt here for a moment and go PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 769 MR LUKHELE back. They came with this one other comrade, Maakie Skosana, is it? MR LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct. JUDGE WILSON: Who was going around asking after you outside the hall and your comrades inside advised you not to go out and join her, is that so? MR LUKHELE: The comrades told her that she shouldn't call me for police, because the police were actually looking for me at that time. JUDGE WILSON: Did you ever ask her why she had come and called you? MR LUKHELE: Yes, I did. She said to me I was wanted by Congress Mutsweni. JUDGE MALL: Mr du Plessis, do carry on. ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I am nearly finished. Can you tell us, when you spoke to Mike and James, please look at me and stop looking at your legal representatives when I ask you the question, when you spoke to Mike and James was that the first time you saw them, when they called you in the Jetta, when Maakie Skosana came to call you, was that the first time you saw them, Mike and James? MR LUKHELE: The first one, it was not the first time that I saw him. ADV DU PLESSIS: Him, who, James or Mike? MR LUKHELE: It was Mike. ADV DU PLESSIS: Where did you see Mike before? MR LUKHELE: He was staying at the corner house next to Maakie Skosana's place. ADV DU PLESSIS: And why did you believe Mike and James that they could give you military training. Why? MR LUKHELE: It is because they came with a trusted or so- PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 770 MR LUKHELE called trusted Congress Mutsweni. ADV DU PLESSIS: Was Mutsweni an informer? MR LUKHELE: Definitely not. ADV DU PLESSIS: Alright, now can you remember in that period when people were detained, comrades were detained by the police and they were set free later on again, were they regarded as leaders amongst the comrades, were they respected? MR LUKHELE: They were not respected. ADV DU PLESSIS: I am referring to comrades who were detained by the police, comrades who were caught throwing stones and burning vehicles, if they were detained by the police and they came out, were they regarded as heroes in the community? MR LUKHELE: We regarded them as part of the community. ADV DU PLESSIS: Alright. And what did the people do with informers when they were caught? MR LUKHELE: They would burn them. ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you mean necklace them, or do you just mean burning? MR LUKHELE: I am referring to burning, I didn't say necklacing. ADV DU PLESSIS: Well, I am asking you, did that include necklacing? MR LUKHELE: Necklacing. ADV DU PLESSIS: Alright. And can you remember any attacks on policemen before your experience that night, can you remember that the people attacked policemen's houses? MR LUKHELE: I don't know about others, but I have never been involved in attacking police before then. ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you speak to people before that who PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DU PLESSIS 770 MR LUKHELE said that policemen's houses should be attacked? MR LUKHELE: I never did. ADV DU PLESSIS: I am not going to take it further. I am putting to you that I am going to argue that, that contradicts with your previous evidence. MR LUKHELE: At no stage did I say that. ADV DU PLESSIS: Alright, and then one last question. Can you remember the comrades, were there comrades and the people in COSAS and all these organisations, were there lots of school children involved in these organisations? MR LUKHELE: Yes. ADV DU PLESSIS: And school children were comrades, is that right, like yourself? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe are there any questions? NO EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE JUDGE MALL: Any re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, what I would have re-examined on has been canvassed quite fully by Mr du Plessis. There is no re-examination. JUDGE WILSON: You told us a moment ago that Mike stayed at the corner house next to Maakie Skosana's place, which as I gather was a place which you used to visit? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. JUDGE WILSON: What did Mike do? MR LUKHELE: Mike was a comrade, he would disappear and re-appear again. JUDGE WILSON: He was a comrade and you knew him as such? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. JUDGE WILSON: He didn't work or anything that you knew? PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG JUDGE WILSON 771 MR LUKHELE MR LUKHELE: Could the speaker repeat? JUDGE WILSON: He didn't work, had he got a job as far as you know? MR LUKHELE: No I never knew him as a working man. JUDGE WILSON: Thank you. JUDGE MALL: In your mind, is there a difference between a comrade and a Freedom Fighter? MR LUKHELE: I see no difference. JUDGE MALL: Thank you. Yes, you are excused. Thank you. MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, the witness indicates that he has something he would like to say, I don't have instructions as to what it is, I don't know if you want to afford him the opportunity or whether I should take instructions. I don't want to delay the proceedings any further. JUDGE MALL: Just let him say what he wants to say. MR LUKHELE: I would like the Truth Commission to investigate further because the man who was training us, I saw him at Duduza during the hearings ...(intervention) JUDGE MALL: Just hold it, I can't hear you properly, maybe if the Interpreter spoke a little more loudly, carry on, you would like the Commission to what? JUDGE WILSON: To investigate further ...(intervention) MR LUKHELE: I would like the Truth Commission to further investigate because the man who trained us was present at Duduza during the Duduza hearings and he was part of the audience, and I would request the Honourable Committee to try as much as possible to get hold of this man. JUDGE WILSON: Is that Mike? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. JUDGE MALL: Yes. PRETORIA HEARING AMNESTY/GAUTENG ADV DE JAGER 772 MR LUKHELE ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, is that the man who stayed next to Maakie's house on the corner? MR LUKHELE: That is correct. JUDGE MALL: Is there anything else you wish to say? MR LUKHELE: Yes. JUDGE MALL: Yes? MR LUKHELE: Yes, your Worship. JUDGE MALL: Carry on. MR LUKHELE: I am through. JUDGE MALL: Thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, it was my intention to call a further witness, I note that it is nearly 12.50. If I could give you an indication in five minutes or so as to whether I intend to call or not because if we could adjourn now, I am sure that would assist the Committee. JUDGE MALL: It would be convenient if we can sort this matter out as soon as possible. MR VAN DEN BERG: Alright. Can I then take instructions, consider my position and then with Mr Mpshe and Mr du Plessis, will revert to you. JUDGE MALL: Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Mr Chairman. JUDGE MALL: Without too much delay. MR VAN DEN BERG: As the Committee pleases. COMMISSION ADJOURNS