hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-02-10 CRADOCK 2 NOSISI DORAH BILL https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54990&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/cradock/bill.htm REVD FINCA: We are going to call upon Nosisi Dorah Bill. We welcome you Mrs Nosisi Dorah Bill. I am going to ask Reverend Xundu to administer the oath, he will also ask a few questions on behalf of the Commission. REVD XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. NOSISI DORAH BILL (sworn states) REVD XUNDU What is your clan name? What is your clan name, Ma'am? MRS BILL I am from the Mhlane clan. REVD XUNDU Can you please tell us briefly about the incident that took place in your house that led to the death of this young man, Mzwandile Bill who was working for the electrical company and who was on his way from work. Can you just tell us briefly so that we can get the full picture. MRS BILL I was on my way from work. I found Mzwandile taking a bath. I went into the bedroom. I heard him calling a child. I heard him talking to this child, but I did not know what they were talking about. After some time, I left the bedroom, I went to the sitting room. Mzwandile went out of the house, he went straight behind the house. I could hear the voices outside. When I looked outside, I could see that he was with his girlfriend. I heard this girlfriend saying, I am going to ask him, CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 ND BILL I am going to ask him. This girl left and I went out of the house. Mzwandile came into the house. I didn't ask him about what was happening because I couldn't see people fighting but I could just hear that this girl was saying, I am going to ask him, I am going to ask him. When I went back to the house and I looked outside, I could see this girl coming with two Kits Constables with guns and they were also carrying walkie talkies. When they were in front of the house, there is an electric pole in front of my house, one of the Kits Constables said just go back - he said to this girl. This girl went back and then the police came to my house. They went passed me in front of the house, they went into the house. Mzwandile was standing inside the house, half naked. They asked who was Mzwandile? Mzwandile said I am Mzwandile. They said come. Mzwandile responded by asking them where should I go? They assaulted him. They put him out of the house and he was still asking them what was wrong. I started crying while they were at the door and there were a lot of people in front of the door, they were also crying. They pulled him until he fell. I could hear a noise of the gun and this other Kits Constable was shooting him. While I was still crying, the blood was all over the place. One old man said, this boy is dead. I said to the police, you are not coming in here and that's the end. You just stand there, don't come in here. The police van took him. REVD XUNDU Thank you Ma'am. In your statement you said Mzwandile was in one of the clubs? CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 ND BILL MRS BILL He was a soccer player. REVD XUNDU Was Mzwandile a soccer player? MRS BILL ; Yes. REVD XUNDU You said he came with Nolingo. MRS BILL Nolingo was the one who was his girlfriend, it is Nolingo, it was Mzwandile's girlfriend. REVD XUNDU When you asked Nolingo after this, what did she say when you asked her, what did she say? MRS BILL ; I didn't ask her. When she was talking to this other child, she said Mzwandile said she is working with the Kits Constables and Mzwandile said she must stop working with Kits Constables. REVD XUNDU Does that mean that Mzwandile said that one of the girls was in love with one of the Kits Constables? MRS BILL No, I think it is because her friend was in love with one of the Kits Constables. REVD XUNDU So does that mean that a person can become an informer easily when you are in love with the Kits Constables? MRS BILL Yes, that is correct. They usually fall in love with the Kits Constables. REVD XUNDU Did you see Nolingo after that? MRS BILL No, I didn't even wish to see her. REVD XUNDU Who is Slams? MRS BILL Slams is one of the Kits Constables. REVD XUNDU What are there proper names? MRS BILL I don't know his friends, I only know him as Slams. I don't even know where did he come from. Those were the people who were harassing us, I only know him as Slams. The people used to call him so. REVD XUNDU Was he in police uniform? CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 ND BILL MRS BILL Yes, he was in police uniform. REVD XUNDU Do you mean the green uniform? MRS BILL They were wearing those Kits Constable uniforms. REVD XUNDU Was there any case after that, any charges laid after the incident? MRS BILL ; Yes, there was a case. The police came to call us just before the funeral. They said they are coming to fetch me because I am supposed to be there when they were performing the post-mortem. REVD XUNDU Was the post-mortem performed? MRS BILL Yes. The bullet was removed. On the second day, I am not sure, I can't remember, the comrade took me to Middelburg. I don't know what happened thereafter, because I was alone, I didn't have anybody, I didn't have a husband to help me going to all these places. I ended up in Middelburg and then when I came back after the funeral, I went back to the office and they were always saying the case would be held. When I went there the police asked me where was my legal representative. I said I don't know. They said I must bring a legal representative from the ANC organisation. Each time I went there, they used to tell me that he was not there. For about a year I have been going to that office, the following year I have been going to SANLAM. I used to get different policemen who would give me different information. At some stage, when I decided I wouldn't go to SANLAM any more, I saw this policeman who was a Coloured, who tore a paper, writing that Mzwandile died on this date and then he said, he wrote something saying "saak afgehandel" and he said to me, stop coming here, the case is CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 5 ND BILL closed. (tape ends) REVD XUNDU ... a legal representative? MRS BILL Yes, I didn't have one. REVD XUNDU At Mzwandile's funeral, was there any role that was played by the political organisations? MRS BILL Yes. REVD XUNDU Do you mean they arranged everything for the funeral? MRS BILL Yes. And even the soccer players, the club that he was playing for. REVD XUNDU This policeman, Crous, who was a Coloured who said the case was closed, do you know him? Is he still around? MRS BILL No, I don't even know him. I saw him that day, because everyday I used to get different policeman and I was in pain, I couldn't always think about it. One of the Coloured people who were there, asked him his name and he said he was Crous. He was the one who told me that the case was closed. REVD XUNDU You don't even know this other Coloured policeman? MRS BILL No, I don't know him. REVD XUNDU You mean the case was closed? MRS BILL Yes, they were actually dismissing me. REVD XUNDU Did Mzwandile and Nolingo have a child? MRS BILL Yes, they do have a child. REVD XUNDU Where is the child? MRS BILL The child is in Nolingo's home. REVD XUNDU She didn't bring the child to you? MRS BILL No. REVD XUNDU Do you mean Nolingo didn't explain anything? CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 ND BILL MRS BILL No, I don't even think she will ever explain anything. I don't even know where she is now. She is not here in Cradock. REVD XUNDU What is it that you would like to tell the Commission as your wish? MRS BILL I request the Commission because it is hurting to me, that child was working for me as I didn't have a husband. He used to buy everything in the house, he used to be responsible. I am not getting pension, I am not working. To me he was a breadwinner in my home, I am all alone now. I request that the Commission should see what to do. Even my house is backwards, I am in debt, I cannot pay because I am not working. REVD XUNDU Is there anything else that you would like to add? MRS BILL No, I am finished. REVD XUNDU Thank you Ma'am. I will hand over to the Chairperson, maybe he might have some questions since he is a deep thinking person who sometimes see some things that I cannot see. Thank you. REVD FINCA Mrs Nosisi Bill, we thank you. By telling us this story which is so painful, there is something that I have noticed in these stories, the stories that we have been listening to yesterday and today, which is a problem in my mind, that all these stories were supposed to be under the lawyers who were fighting for the Human Rights, they should have made a follow up, but we realise that a lot of them didn't take note, they didn't make a follow up. In stead a murder case would just end like anything. Whereas the lawyers who claim to be the lawyers of Human Rights, were among us. Maybe there is a specific reason CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 7 ND BILL which can clarify, but on my mind I become confused why did all these matters that involve the death of the people, not go on and have the real outcome, no follow up, nothing. Perhaps we are going to ask that question when we are dealing with the hearing of the people who were maintaining law and order, but for now, we are going to say thank you to you and we have taken note of your request that you have made to the Commission and we will also see to it that our investigators will make a follow up. If there is something that we will need from you, we will still come back to you to ask questions. Thank you. I would request that we take a few minutes for a break and come back at quarter past eleven.