hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-02-12 CRADOCK 3 WILLIAM GILBERT https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54997&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/cradock/gilbert.htm WILLIAM GILBERT (sworn states) MR SANDI Sir you are from Graaf Reinet, Zamiville Location is that so? MR GILBERT Yes Sir. MR SANDI Was your son coming from the Goniwe funeral? MR GILBERT Yes Sir. MR SANDI What was going on at that time at Graaf Reinet? MR GILBERT On the 22nd of July 1985 a hippo came to our house, there was a shack at the back of my house, two policemen came to my yard, I was sitting on my veranda and they walked to the children at the backyard. They went to the closed shack and asked who stayed there and the deceased answered saying that the person who stays there is at work. They wanted to know what was inside and my son then said he refuses to tell them. They then took a hammer and said that they are not going to argue because P W Botha said that we must not argue with blacks but kill them like flies. I tried to talk to them and they left but they said they were coming back, they swore to come back. After a while they came back at about 12 o'clock. The children ran away and that is when he got shot. MR SANDI What was the cause of the disharmony? Who was leading the township all in all? Were there councillors within the organisation. MR GILBERT There were councillors but the boers at the time just did not want to see a black man. They would just beat you up. MR SANDI Are there police that you can identify? MR GILBERT Yes he's still alive, he's working. MR SANDI What is his name? MR GILBERT They call him Bokkie but his real name is Hills. MR SANDI So he's the one who shot your son? Was there a court case? MR GILBERT No there would be no court cases at that time. They would just say somebody shot and then acquitted him. I tried to go to an attorney but I was not successful. MR SANDI What attorney was this? MR GILBERT An attorney from Port Elizabeth, Patrick Bach. MR SANDI Yes, did you bury him? MR GILBERT Yes. MR SANDI Is there something the Commission can do for you? MR GILBERT You can do me a hugh hugh favour, because that child was going to work for me. He is buried now. MR SANDI So what you want is a tombstone as well? MR GILBERT Yes. MR SANDI Is there something else? MR GILBERT Those boers must be arrested. You can't just acquit guilty people like that who shot at our children. MR SANDI Do you get a pension? MR GILBERT No I don't have a pension yet. MR SANDI According to your statement you've applied for a pension? MR GILBERT Yes I have but I haven't got anything yet. MR SANDI Did your son have children? MR GILBERT No he was young, he was at school at the time. MR SANDI I'll hand you over to Mr Chairperson, perhaps he has questions for you. MEMBER OF PANEL Mr Gilbert, when did you apply for a pension? MR GILBERT Last year Sir around October. MEMBER OF PANEL So you made it in October last year. MR GILBERT Yes but it takes time. MEMBER OF PANEL Have you heard about the results? MR GILBERT No. MEMBER OF PANEL So it's Mr Hills who shot your son Sir? MR GILBERT Apparently. MEMBER OF PANEL Is he still at Graaf Reinet, is he still a policeman there? MR GILBERT No he's gone to Mossel Bay. MEMBER OF PANEL He was transferred to Mossel Bay? MR GILBERT Yes. MEMBER OF PANEL He's still a policeman? MR GILBERT Apparently. MEMBER OF PANEL Thank you Mr Gilbert, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Tiny Maya? MS MAYA Thank you Mr Chairperson, Mr Gilbert, how old was your son, you say he was still a student? MR GILBERT He was about 17 years of age at the time. MS MAYA Was he a member of a political organisation, a youth group perhaps? MR GILBERT I would just hear rumours, it seemed that he was a member of an organisation. MS MAYA So you're not sure which organisation it was? MR GILBERT No I'm not, I just heard from his friends. MS MAYA Did he have conflicts with the police prior to that or did they just shoot him because he'd gone to the funeral? MR GILBERT He did not have conflict? MS MAYA What was the atmosphere like at the community? MR GILBERT There was quite a bit of chaos. MS MAYA Is there anyone who got shot or injured prior to your son? MR GILBERT Yes there were. MS MAYA Thank you Sir. MR SANDI Thank you again Mr Chairperson. Mr Gilbert I noticed that when you were talking here you said that these perpetrators should be arrested. Did I understand you well? MR GILBERT I said exactly that. MR SANDI According to the new law that if perpetrators apply for amnesty, if Mr Hills would apply for amnesty after he had divulged all, how would you feel? MR GILBERT I asked them to leave my house, to leave my children alone even then but he went on and he shot my child. He did not forgive me then, he had no mercy for me, I have no mercy for him now. MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr William Gilbert for bring before the Commission the story of your son's death. We have taken note of the requests you brought forward. Some of them we may be able to fulfil quickly, for example the pension that you should be receiving. Some of them we will not have to wait to give a report to the President, but will be able to fulfil immediately. I'd like to clarify that some of your requests will have to be taken to the President. The particular request that the perpetrators should appear before a court of law is beyond our capability. We are very pleased that you spoke openly and told us how you felt so that the perpetrators realise the gravity of their actions. They should not just take it for granted that they must be forgiven. They must realise that they are perpetrators, they should humble themselves and wait unto the victims for forgiveness. Thank you Mr Gilbert.