hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-02-10 CRADOCK 1 MXOLISI GOBOZA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54998&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/cradock/goboza.htm REVD FINCA: Before we break for lunch, we would like Mxolisi Goboza to come forward. Mxolisi Goboza, what you are going to tell us today is the same as with Thembinkosi Tshabe? MR GOBOZA Yes, that is so, that is correct. REVD FINCA Can Thembinkosi Tshabe come to the stage please. We are going to deal with these two cases as the same time. I just realised that the people who were looking at the cases, said they were the same, so we are going to deal with them at the same time - it is Mxolisi Goboza and Thembinkosi Tshabe. I am going to hand over to Reverend Xundu to swear you in and thereafter I will hand over to Ntsiki Sandi to ask questions. MXOLISI GOBOZA (sworn states) THEMBINKOSI TSHABE (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you, they are sworn in Mr Chairperson. MR SANDI Thank you Chairperson. We are going to start with Mxolisi. Mxolisi is Goboza your surname? MR GOBOZA My surname is Ngoboza, yes. MR SANDI Mxolisi you and Thembinkosi, we noticed that in the statements that we have in front of us, you have made application to appear before the Truth Commission today so that you can tell us what happened one day in 1993 in CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 X GOBOZA Venterstad. Let us start with you Mxolisi. How old are you, Mxolisi, right now? MR GOBOZA I am 15 years old. MR SANDI How old were you during this incident? MR GOBOZA I was 11 years old. MR SANDI Can you please tell us Mxolisi, on this day in June 1993 in Venterstad, what happened while you were with Thembinkosi? MR GOBOZA It was during the day. A police casper came, but nothing happened. During the night we saw police shooting, they were shooting tear gas. My sister had sent me to my uncle and I went through a passage and I saw a police casper, but I didn't run away. They shot me and I fell. One of the children took me to the house and he called my sister and my sister came with a car and they took me to the hospital. The pellets were removed. They told my sister that if I can vomit during the night, and have diarrhoea, I must be taken to the hospital. During the night I vomited. The following day I woke up, I went back to the Doctor. The Doctor said there is nothing that he can do because the pellets are right in my intestines. I was transferred to Burgersdorp. Even there they said there is nothing they can do. I was transferred to Bloemfontein again for an operation. I was admitted there for three weeks and the pellets were removed. MR SANDI Were all these pellets removed? MR GOBOZA Yes. MR SANDI The hospital in Bloemfontein that you went to, is CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 M GOBOZA it Pendenoni? MR GOBOZA Yes, it is Pendenoni Hospital. MR SANDI On this particular day, were there any events during the day that took place in Venterstad just before you were shot? MR GOBOZA The people were toyi-toying. MR SANDI In your statement you said this case is well known in the Advice Office of Bloemfontein? MR GOBOZA Yes. MR SANDI Who referred the matter to there? MR GOBOZA It was Judge Memani who referred the case to Bloemfontein Advice Office. MR SANDI Judge Memani, who is Judge Memani? MR GOBOZA He is working for the Advice Office of Venterstad. MR SANDI You said he referred this case to Mr Fish? MR GOBOZA No Mr Fish is from the Venterstad Advice Office. MR SANDI What happened after that? MR GOBOZA One day we were called to the court. I don't even know whether this attorney was representing the Boers, the case was discussed and we were sent away - they said they would call us again, but that never happened. MR SANDI When you say you discussed, do you mean that you and Thembinkosi were involved when the case was discussed? MR GOBOZA Thembinkosi was not there because he was not in the records. MR SANDI Were there any other people talking to you except the police? MR GOBOZA There was a Magistrate and a Prosecutor. MR SANDI With whom were you at the court besides the CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 M GOBOZA Magistrate and the Prosecutor? MR GOBOZA It was me and another girl. MR SANDI Was this girl from Venterstad? MR GOBOZA Yes. MR SANDI What is her name? MR GOBOZA Xoliswa Olifant. MR SANDI Was Xoliswa Olifant shot? MR GOBOZA Yes, she was also shot. MR SANDI What was the outcome of the case, Mxolisi? MR GOBOZA They said they would call us later on, but that never happened. That was the end. MR SANDI Was there any elderly person who used to accompany you to the court? MR GOBOZA Yes. MR SANDI Who was that? MR GOBOZA It was Sis Tandiwe. MR SANDI Is Sis Tandiwe your parent? MR GOBOZA No, she is my mother's sister. MR SANDI Where is she? MR GOBOZA She is in Gauteng. MR SANDI With whom did you come to this place today? MR GOBOZA I am alone, I am all by myself. MR SANDI At home, did you tell them that you were coming to the Truth Commission, or do they know that you are coming? MR GOBOZA Yes, they know. I told them. MR SANDI Is that all that you would like to tell us today, Mxolisi? MR GOBOZA Yes. MR SANDI By appearing before this Commission, young boy, do you have any request that you would like to tell us as the Commission, can you tell us? MR GOBOZA I request that the Commission should take me to school, help me with my education. MR SANDI What standard are you doing now? MR GOBOZA I am doing standard 7. MR SANDI What would you like to be when you are educated? MR GOBOZA I would like to be a prison warder. MR SANDI What? MR GOBOZA I want to be a prison warder, look after the prisoners. MR SANDI Do you have specific reasons Mxolisi, why you want to be a prison warder and watch the people who are sentenced for their actions, can you tell us about those? MR GOBOZA It is because they are breaking the law. MR SANDI What do you think is the proper treatment for the people who are breaking the law? MR GOBOZA They should not be ill-treated, they should be handled with care. MR SANDI Let us come to Thembinkosi. Thembinkosi, the way I look at this matter, this is the same case - it affects both of you. You have been listening while Mxolisi was talking. Can you just add where he left out, if there is something that you think he has left out when he was telling us the story. MR TSHABE There is nothing much, but during the toyi-toyi it was the school children and the police failed in their work, because they prevented us from marching and in stead they called the police from Middelburg. When the police from Middelburg arrived, it was early in the morning. When we tried again to continue with the protest, they prevented us again. So the students were totally against this and they went to the township where they actually attacked a Municipal van. CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 T TSHABE The following day, on a Sunday, the police came and they administered tear gas. Late that day, though we didn't get a chance to continue with our march, they came again with tear gas, they were just shooting, but they were not assaulting anybody. They were shooting everybody, even the people who were not students, they were shot. We were taken at the same time on that Sunday. We were being shot because we set the Municipal van alight and they were just shooting, killing everybody. MR SANDI How old were you at the time of this incident in 1993? MR TSHABE I was 15 years old. MR SANDI Are you still at school now? MR TSHABE Yes. MR SANDI What standard are you doing? MR TSHABE I am doing standard 7. MR SANDI This toyi-toyi or protest that was taking place, what was the cause, what was the grievances of the people? MR TSHABE The students were fighting for their rights, because the Boers took us to town while we were to increase the standard at school, because we had to increase the classes up to standard 8, we didn't have enough classes and the Boers refused when we tried to negotiate. The Boers refused to listen to us. That is when COSAS took over and they also burnt COSAS and the Boers from Middelburg came and said after 10 minutes, we should dismiss. MR SANDI You said you were also shot, what Hospital did you go to? MR TSHABE While I was shot, I couldn't go to the CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 7 T TSHABE Hospital, I went with this woman who was here who was shot there and we went to the Doctor. That was Doctor Kashent. MR SANDI: Is he also from Venterstad? MR TSHABE Yes. MR SANDI Is he still there? MR TSHABE No, he left. MR SANDI Did you see the police who shot at you? MR TSHABE No, I couldn't because I wasn't expecting anything. MR SANDI Were you listening when the lady before you was testifying? MR TSHABE Which one? MR SANDI The one who was testifying, did you see her? MR TSHABE Yes. MR SANDI Did you hear her when she said there was no law in Venterstad? MR TSHABE Yes, I heard her. MR SANDI As far as you know, do you think that that is true? MR TSHABE The rights that we were actually fighting for, were the students' rights, but in the community, there was no commotion. MR SANDI What kind of treatment were the people getting from the police? MR TSHABE They were not doing anything, in stead they used to invite police from outside. When we went there to ask about this matter, they told us that this police from Middelburg are not under Venterstad, so they don't ask for anybody's permission, they just do whatever they would like to do. Even if one policeman is trying to prevent them from CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 8 T TSHABE doing what they were doing, they wouldn't care, they wouldn't consider, they wouldn't take care. And they also told us that this police - they don't go to the police in charge and get permission. MR SANDI Can you also say that the police were taking the law into their own hands? Do you also confirm that? MR TSHABE Yes, it is so. MR SANDI Thank you. Let us continue. By being here today, Thembinkosi, do you have any wishes or requests that you would like to tell the Commission? MR TSHABE I am here because I would like to request the Commission to help me in my studies and my ill-health. MR SANDI Can you specify about health? MR TSHABE Since after that time, me and one of the gentleman who were shot, when we went to the Doctor, Doctor Kashent, he said he won't give us treatment, we must go straight to the hospital. But because we are not politicians in Venterstad, we were told that we mustn't go to the hospital, because it might happen that the police could come to the hospital and arrest us, so we were afraid, we didn't go to the hospital. The comrades took us and they tried to remove the pellets, it is only three pellets now that are embedded in my body and after some time that affected me because I normally have sharp pains, I feel dizzy some times. MR SANDI Do you mean that you have pellets embedded in your body? MR TSHABE Yes, three of them. MR SANDI Is there any way how this whole thing affected you especially in your studies? Was your time wasted? MR TSHABE Yes, it is so because as from that year I CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 9 T TSHABE couldn't concentrate, I couldn't think quickly. Especially if I am in class, sometimes I become dizzy. So since after the incident, I couldn't succeed with my studies. MR SANDI Lastly, if you say you request that you get assistance in your studies, is there any career that you would like to pursue? MR TSHABE What I thought about was being a nurse, I also thought of being a male nurse or a Social Worker. MR SANDI Do you mean that you would like to be a male nurse? MR TSHABE Yes. MR SANDI Thembinkosi, is that all that you would like to tell us about just before I hand you over to the Chairperson? MR TSHABE Yes, that is all for now. REVD FINCA Mxolisi, I want to start with you. The people who did all these things to you, what is it that you would like the Commission to do about them? MR GOBOZA I would like the Commission to investigate and get them and punish these people. REVD FINCA And you Thembinkosi? MR TSHABE That is my wish also. REVD FINCA Thank you. I think that is the very first time in this area in this hearings of the Eastern Cape that we are listening to the testimonies of the people of your age, more specially Mxolise who is only 15 years old. We normally listen to the elderly people, it is for the first time that we are listening to young people, a young person like Mxolisi. That has actually touched us. We thank God that He has CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 10 protected you that you didn't die that day. As we are looking at you, we think about a lot of children who are like you, who were not so fortunate to be alive. Young boys and girls who never escaped like you. We wish you all the best in your lives. You have seen great things at a tender age in a country where the elderly people are shooting the children. In other countries the people say that children must be protected, given love and cared for. In this country the elderly men are shooting the children of your age, saying that they are protecting themselves, saying that they are maintaining law and order. We have a wish if it is possible, that you can grow up and the careers that you would like to pursue in life, that should also happen. In Ventersdorp, you would be the leaders, you have seen many great things at a tender age. We thank you for coming to the Commission. Your wish that you would like to see these people getting punished, we have noted it. My wish is that those people one day should see, they should go to Ventersdorp and they should take a closer look at you and say we apologise for nearly destroying your lives. Thank you.