hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-02-10 CRADOCK 1 XOLISWA ETHEL MBOYA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55006&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/cradock/mboya.htm REVD FINCA: We will now call upon Xoliswa Ethel Mboya. Xoliswa Ethel Mboya. We welcome you Miss Mboya. We will ask Reverend Xundu to help you take an oath and after that Ntsiki Sandi will lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission. REVD XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairman. Xoliswa, can you please stand up. XOLISWA ETHEL MBOYA (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you. I hand over to you Mr Chairperson. REVD FINCA Mr Sandi? MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Miss Mboya, I see that in your statement which you gave in this Commission, you made a request to appear in front of this Commission to talk about your brother, John Vuyisile Mboya. As I am looking at your statement, you said that your brother was shot in 1992, he was shot by the police and I would hand over to you now to tell us from the beginning to the end and I won't disturb you while you are telling us your story, thank you. MISS MBOYA Thank you. In 1992, there was a toyi-toyi here in town. After that, people dispersed and they went to their different homes. In the afternoon the police came in my home, looking for Vuyisile. When my mother asked them why they were looking for him, they didn't say. Again at night, the CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 XE MBOYA police came looking for Vuyisile and my mother was asking them, why were you looking for him, and they didn't tell her why they were looking for him, they just said we want him. And one day Vuyisile was sleeping in the shack together with his friend, the police found him there. His friend came to our home, he knocked at the door and he told us that the police found Vuyisile. I tried to go to the creche in the morning to go and tell there that the police had found Vuyisile and arrested him. When I arrived there, the creche was closed. I found one man who was working there and he told me to go home, he will tell the people there. At that time Vuyisile was already killed by the police and they took Vuyisile to their offices. When I came back from the creche, I heard some people talking, they were saying that Vuyisile was dead. I came back home and then I told my mother that Vuyisile is dead, I heard that from people on the street. We tried to go out, looking for him, as he was taken by the police. When we arrived at the office where he was killed, the gates were closed. They were closed at the time he was killed, he was shot and killed. We went to town to the offices in town. When we arrived there, they said they didn't know him. We were confused, we didn't know where to go. We stood there, there was one man who came to us and he advised us to go and look for him in the hospital. He said that he might not be dead, he might be in the hospital. We went to the hospital. When we arrived there, the security man told us that there is no such person there. We went back to the office CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 XE MBOYA and the police told us they did not know him, there was no such person there. We were so confused, we didn't know what to do. After a while we went back to the hospital. When we arrived at the hospital, we found him there. When we were looking at the drawer in the hospital, his mouth was full of sand. I came back to my mother and I told her that it is true, Vuyisile is dead. When I arrived at home, there were comrades there trying to comfort my mother. We tried to find out what happened to him as he was taken by the police, we couldn't find anything. We wanted to know who killed him, we didn't know, we didn't find out. Up until now, we don't know who killed Vuyisile. There were rumours that he was killed by a Coloured police, again by a White police. Just because we had nothing, we didn't do anything up until now. MR SANDI Where he was arrested, who arrested him at that police station? MISS MBOYA His friend couldn't tell us his name, he just said that the police took him. MR SANDI Who is this friend who was together with Vuyisile at the time of his arrest? MISS MBOYA His name is Maro Masole. We tried to look for him, but we couldn't find him. We were told that he is working at George. MR SANDI In which office was he actually shot? Was it at Sanlam? MISS MBOYA No, it was the office here in the township. My mother asked the police before the funeral and they told my mother that he was shot because he allegedly removed the CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 XE MBOYA South African flag and he wanted the ANC flag to be in that building and that's what they told us. MR SANDI When they were talking about the flag, did you ask them what flag they were talking about? Were they talking about the flag, the South African flag? MISS MBOYA Yes, they said that he was removing the South African flag and he wanted the ANC flag to be in that building. MR SANDI Are you talking about the South African Government who was not accepted by the people at that time? MISS MBOYA Yes. MR SANDI What did this flag symbolise to the people as the Government was not accepted by most of the people? Was this flag acceptable to the people? MISS MBOYA No, the people did not accept it. MR SANDI At that time when the police shot him, was there any eyewitness who saw this? MISS MBOYA No, there is no eyewitness because they shot him in the office, there were only police there. MR SANDI Was there any person who was prosecuted for murder? MISS MBOYA No, there was no one prosecuted. MR SANDI Did any police arrive at home and tell you why there is no charge of murder? MISS MBOYA No, nobody came. MR SANDI Did you consult any attorneys at home? MISS MBOYA No. MR SANDI Is that all you want to say Ma'am? MISS MBOYA Yes, that is all that I want to say. MR SANDI As we are concluding, as you are here today, do you have any request to this Commission? CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 5 XE MBOYA MISS MBOYA Yes, I do have a request to this Commission because he was a person who was supporting us at home. As we are Black people, there are certain traditional things that have to be made for that person and up to now, we have no money to do those rituals for him. MR SANDI In other words you are saying that he was a breadwinner at home? MISS MBOYA Yes, he was a breadwinner at home. MR SANDI ; Is that all you wanted to say Ma'am? MISS MBOYA Yes, that is all. MR SANDI Thank you Ma'am, I will hand over to the Chairperson. Thank you. REVD FINCA Thank you. Tiny Maya? MS MAYA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Miss Mboya, I would like to ask you a few questions. How old was Vuyisile at the time of his death? MISS MBOYA Vuyisile was born in 1961. MS MAYA You said that he was employed at the time? MISS MBOYA Yes, he was working at the mine, in the revenue mine. MS MAYA At the time of his death, was he still at work? MISS MBOYA Yes, he was on holiday. They were striking at that time, so he just arrived from work. MS MAYA Did you get anything from the mines? MISS MBOYA Yes, my mother got money, but it was not enough. MS MAYA I can see that in your statement you said that he left behind a son. How old is he? MISS MBOYA He is 17 years old. MS MAYA Where is he at the moment? MISS MBOYA He is staying with me and my mother. CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 XE MBOYA MS MAYA Is he still at school? MISS MBOYA Yes, he is doing standard 9. MS MAYA In other words, you are responsible for this son? MISS MBOYA Yes. My mother is a pensioner and I am not employed. REVD FINCA Reverend Xundu? REVD XUNDU Ma'am, I would like to ask you at the time that the police were alleging that Vuyisile wanted the ANC flag to be in that building, was ANC unbanned at that time? MISS MBOYA Yes, it was unbanned. REVD XUNDU In other words it was not a crime to carry around the ANC flag? MISS MBOYA No, it was not a crime. REVD XUNDU You said that you don't know who these policemen were? MISS MBOYA No, I don't know them. REVD XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. REVD FINCA June Crichton? MS CRICHTON Can you hear me? Can you hear me Miss Mboya? MISS MBOYA Yes, I can hear you. MS CRICHTON There are two questions that I have for you. The first one when you said that the police were constantly coming to the house looking for your brother, were they SAP police or were they Municipal Police, were they the White and Coloured police that you were talking about later on in your testimony? May I have a translation please? Did you hear my question? I haven't had an answer to the question yet. REVD FINCA Just take that thing and adjust it to Xhoza. MS CRICHTON So, has she heard the question? I haven't had an answer translated for me Bongani. ... Municipal CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 7 XE MBOYA police, what kind of police were they that were harassing you? They are not translating. MISS MBOYA Yes, they were Municipal police. MS CRICHTON The second thing that I wanted to say to you was that it is clear that the police played games with people, that they sent you from one place to the other, knowing full well what the answer was as to where your brother was. Was that something that happened to other people as well in your experience? MISS MBOYA Yes, it was happening to other people, because the police knew where my brother was and they knew where the other people were. MS CRICHTON Thank you Mr Chairman. REVD FINCA Mrs Xoliswa Mboya, in your statement you said that at home as a family, you laid a charge. Can you please tell us what happened in court? MISS MBOYA We didn't know exactly what happened, we didn't go to court, we didn't go in front of the Magistrate. They just told us that we have to go to court, but they didn't come and tell us the dates, up until today. REVD FINCA Thank you. Did you have any attorney, any family attorney? MISS MBOYA No, we did not have any attorney. REVD FINCA What were the reasons that you did not have a legal representative? MISS MBOYA Are you asking our attorney or the attorney for the struggle? On our behalf, we couldn't afford a legal representative and we didn't have an attorney from the struggle. REVD FINCA Thank you Miss Mboya, you gave us a testimony about an incident which happened in 1992. CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 8 XE MBOYA I think it is five years from then, but the way you gave us the testimony it shows that you still have pain inside you and we could see in your face that you still feel the pain. It is our aim in this Commission that the people involved in these incidents, would come here when people are giving testimony so that they could see how painful the incidents were. What we see in them is that they go to the Amnesty Committee, asking for amnesty and others go there without feeling or knowing how painful this thing is to the people. Again, I think that the story you have presented in front of us is similar to the one Mrs Lizzie James gave before you. The way in which the courts were not responsible and respecting the cases of the people who were fighting for liberation. I would like to repeat what I said before that it is our hope that those who are in the Justice Department now, are listening to these stories and the way in which the Justice Department has shown that it cares for the people. We thank you and we will try by all means to look at the matter you have presented in front of us and we would like the death of your brother not to look as if he was just a dog. If there are any other things we would like to know from you, our investigators will come to you and collect some information, thank you.