hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-02-10 CRADOCK 2 LIZEKA ROSY NDONI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55012&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/cradock/ndoni.htm REVD XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Will you please get up. We will start with Lizeka. LIZEKA ROSY NDONI (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you. Now, Nolifisi Evelyn Molose. NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. We are going to start with Ms Lizeka Rosy Ndoni. I am going to lead her and then Nolifisi Evelyn Molose will be led by Ms Maya. Ms Ndoni, I notice that your evidence is on behalf of Buyisile Ndoni. How are you related to him? MS NDONI He is my child. REVD XUNDU How old was he at the time of the incident? MS NDONI I have forgotten. REVD XUNDU According to your statement he was 15 years of age. You say this happened in 1985? MS NDONI Yes, sir. REVD XUNDU You said that he died in jail under circumstances that are not clear? MS NDONI That is so. REVD XUNDU Could you tell us more about Buyisile Ndoni before he passed away in prison? MS NDONI He was a student, we were all together at home and police came. We were drinking tea and they just arrested CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 LR NDONI him. REVD XUNDU Before he was arrested, was he a member of the ANC? MS NDONI Yes, he was. REVD XUNDU Are there other things that he participated in at school? MS NDONI Well, I would not know. REVD XUNDU Was he politically orientated? MS NDONI Yes, he was. REVD XUNDU So you say that police came at home and he was arrested? MS NDONI Yes? REVD XUNDU What kind of police? MS NDONI I don't know. REVD XUNDU Who was at home when the police arrived? MS NDONI It was us and the children. REVD XUNDU What do you mean us, do you mean you and the father? MS NDONI No, the father was not there, he was at work. REVD XUNDU So it was you and the children? MS NDONI Yes, it was. REVD XUNDU What reasons did they give for arresting him? MS NDONI They did not give any reasons. REVD XUNDU Did they say where they were taking him? MS NDONI No, they did not. REVD XUNDU So then he was arrested? MS NDONI Yes. REVD XUNDU Did you take any steps at home as parents whose children had been arrested? So your child was arrested by the police, so what happened then? MS NDONI We were all at home. I just started crying, I CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 LR NDONI didn't say anything, I didn't do anything. He was then sentenced. There was a court case before that. After he was sentenced he was imprisoned at St Albans. On a Thursday at about nine o'clock in the morning I saw a police van. They asked if Buyisile Ndoni is my child, I said yes. They said that they have then come to inform me that he had passed away. That was the last I heard until I woke up at a Doctor's surgery. REVD XUNDU When Buyisile was imprisoned, accused and sentenced for public violence, were there others who were accused with him? MS NDONI Yes, there were a lot. REVD XUNDU There are two names that you have mentioned in your statement. Do you remember who they are? MS NDONI Yes, I do. REVD XUNDU Can you tell us please? You said it was Mzwabantu Molose and Gerald Ndinge, where are they now? MS NDONI Mzwabantu has passed away. REVD XUNDU Did he also die in prison? MS NDONI Yes, he did. REVD XUNDU So Constable Koos came to inform you that your son had been stabbed in jail? Did you know Constable Koos previously? MS NDONI Yes, we know him. He is a policeman from Pearston. REVD XUNDU What reasons did he give for your son having been stabbed? MS NDONI He didn't give any reasons. REVD XUNDU Did he say who stabbed him? MS NDONI No. He just gave me that message and he left. I then fainted and I was taken to a Doctor. CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 LR NDONI REVD XUNDU Did he tell you how much time had elapsed between the time your son was stabbed and the time he gave you the report? MS NDONI I did not ask him, because I could not say a word. REVD XUNDU Who is Zimasile Gooi? MS NDONI It was the witness. REVD XUNDU In which way? MS NDONI Zimasile was also in jail with him. Zimasile apparently said that if anything happens to my son, then the police would have to repay. REVD XUNDU Therefor they were all together in jail? MS NDONI Yes, they were. REVD XUNDU So what did Zimasile say, what report does he give. What happened in jail? MS NDONI When my son died, Zimasile was no longer in the same jail. They wanted to separate the two. They wanted Buyisile to be in solitary confinement. They wanted to take my son and put him amongst criminals who had been in jail for quite a while. REVD XUNDU Is Zimasile here today? MS NDONI No, he is in Cape Town, he works there. REVD XUNDU Was there a post-mortem after your son passed away? MS NDONI No, there was no post-mortem. REVD XUNDU Was anybody accused for his death? MS NDONI No. REVD XUNDU So to this day you do not know who stabbed your son in jail or what happened? MS NDONI No, I don't know to this day. REVD XUNDU Before Buyisile was jailed, did he gave problems with the police, were they after him? CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 5 LR NDONI MS NDONI No, there were no such problems. REVD XUNDU As someone who was a member of banned organisations, was he not under police surveillance? MS NDONI He was. REVD XUNDU Were there specific incidents that made it clear that the police were looking for him or wanting him in any way? Do you reconcile the two incidents within you, or do you perhaps think it is the police that stabbed him? MS NDONI Well, I can't say whether it is the police or the convicts that stabbed him. REVD XUNDU Did you get a Death Certificate? MS NDONI No, I did not get one. The people who went to fetch the corpse, must have received the Death Certificate, but I don't know what they did with it. REVD XUNDU Did anyone who received the Certificate ever tell you what was written on the Death Certificate? MS NDONI They said that they didn't see anything. REVD XUNDU Where was he buried? MS NDONI He was buried in Pearston. REVD XUNDU Was it a peaceful funeral? MS NDONI Yes, it was a peaceful funeral. REVD XUNDU Did the police limit you in any way? MS NDONI No, they just said that we must bury him on a Friday and we must not go to work on Saturday. So we buried him on the Friday in stead of the Saturday. REVD XUNDU Which day would you have chosen? MS NDONI We would have chosen the Saturday. REVD XUNDU Is that not a limitation that you wanted to bury your son on Saturday in stead of Friday? Are there any orders that you were given by the police? CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 LR NDONI MS NDONI No. REVD XUNDU Did they stipulate the number of people that should attend the funeral? MS NDONI No. REVD XUNDU Did they stipulate and delegate who should speak at the funeral? MS NDONI No, they didn't. REVD XUNDU Who spoke at the funeral? MS NDONI Are you asking about members of the organisation? There were no members of the organisation that spoke. REVD XUNDU Who spoke at the funeral? MS NDONI There were no speakers from the organisation, no there were none. REVD XUNDU Were there people who wanted to talk from the organisation? MS NDONI Yes, there were but they were unable to get there. REVD XUNDU Therefor you say there were members of the organisation who wanted to come and talk, but they did not get there. Where were they from? MS NDONI They were from Port Elizabeth. REVD XUNDU Which organisation? MS NDONI Their organisation. REVD XUNDU Is this the ANC? MS NDONI Yes, it is the ANC. REVD XUNDU Mrs Ndoni, what are your requests to the Commission today? MS NDONI I need a tombstone for my son. REVD XUNDU There is another request on your statement. Do you want me to read it for you or would you like to say it yourself? CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 7 LR NDONI MS NDONI Please read it. REVD XUNDU One of your requests here is that you would like a memorial park where people can go to pray. Is that so Mrs Ndoni? MS NDONI Yes. REVD XUNDU Is that all you have to say Mrs Ndoni? MS NDONI Yes, there is nothing else that I would like to say. REVD XUNDU Thank you Mrs Ndoni, thank you Mr Chairperson. MS MAYA Mrs Molose, let me refer to you. You are going to talk about your son, Mzwabantu Molose also from Pearston, is that so? MS MOLOSE Yes, it is so. MS MAYA Mzwabantu according to this statement, was arrested like Mrs Ndoni's son. MS MOLOSE It is so Ma'am. MS MAYA And this was in March 1985. MS MOLOSE Yes, Ma'am. MS MAYA According to your knowledge why was he arrested? MS MOLOSE They were in the organisation. MS MAYA Do you know the name of the organisation? MS MOLOSE The ANC. MS MAYA Was he a student or working at the time? MS MOLOSE He was working, but he had stopped working at that time. MS MAYA After he had been arrested, was he prosecuted and sentenced? MS MOLOSE Yes, he was sentenced like all the others. MS MAYA What was the accusation? MS MOLOSE They were burning down schools. CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 8 NE MOLOSE MS MAYA For how long were they sentenced? According to your statement, he was sentenced to five years imprisonment, is that so? MS MOLOSE Yes, Ma'am, it is so. MS MAYA Do you know which prison he was taken to? MS MOLOSE In East London. They were taken from Pearston to Port Elizabeth, St Albans prison. MS MAYA When did you find out that your son had passed away? MS MOLOSE It was on a Thursday when somebody came to ask me if I knew that my son is ill. I said no. He was already in East London by then. We tried to get transport. On the Saturday we were supposed to go to East London but Rossouw came to tell us that my son had passed away. MS MAYA How long had he been in prison when he died? MS MOLOSE It was quite a while, Ma'am. I don't quite remember. MS MAYA Was Mrs Ndoni's son still alive? MS MOLOSE Yes, he was still alive, he was in Port Elizabeth. MS MAYA So they were arrested at the same time? MS MOLOSE Yes, they were. MS MAYA What did they say happened to him? MS MOLOSE They said that he had swallowed a razor blade. MS MAYA Did you get a report from a Doctor? MS MOLOSE His elder brothers made sure that there was a post-mortem, but no razor blade was found. They said that there was a whole lot of smoke in his lungs. MS MAYA did you get a Death Certificate? CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 9 NE MOLOSE MS MOLOSE Yes, somebody has it here in the hall. MS MAYA It is okay Ma'am, we will get it another time. Ma'am, were there witnesses in prison who saw the death of your child? MS MOLOSE Yes, but the witness that we have is in Cape Town. MS MAYA Does that mean you have the same witnesses as Mrs Ndoni? Is that so? MS MOLOSE Yes, they were all together, all in the same cell. MS MAYA Was there an inquest or did you try and investigate what had happened in the cells? MS MOLOSE We were too scared because there was a lot of cruelty from the Boers. MS MAYA You could not even get an attorney from the organisation that would help you? MS MOLOSE We had a Mr Miya from Uitenhage. MS MAYA What happened eventually? MS MOLOSE He gave up in the middle of the whole thing, there were no findings as such. He could not continue with the case. MS MAYA According to your statement, the wardens would beat your sons up? MS MOLOSE That's what we heard from those that were together with them. MS MAYA Were you given any names? MS MOLOSE Well the one is Zimasile who knows, he left last week. MS MAYA I am asking about the perpetrators, do you know anyone's names? MS MOLOSE No. CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 10 NE MOLOSE MS MAYA And Rossouw, do you know where he is now? MS MOLOSE No, I just heard that he is on pension, he has resigned, I don't know where he is, I think he is in George. MS MAYA Let us just revert back a bit. When the post-mortem was being performed, you said that there was a family member or did you have a Doctor of your won? MS MOLOSE There were 15 people. MS MAYA Doctors? MS MOLOSE No, children. MS MAYA What happened to the children? MS MOLOSE They were present during the post-mortem. No, when the post-mortem was being performed, just his elder brother was there. MS MAYA Did you have your own Doctor? MS MOLOSE No, they brought a Doctor from Cape Town. MS MAYA Was it a Government Doctor, this Doctor Airton? MS MOLOSE Well, I am not sure, I don't know, I can't remember. MS MAYA According to your statement Ma'am, Mzwabantu was 22 years of age. Did he have a child? MS MOLOSE No, he did not have a child. MS MAYA Thank you Ma'am. Is that all you have to say or would you like to add to your statement? MS MOLOSE That is all. MS MAYA Do you have a request before the Commission? MS MOLOSE I would like a tombstone please. MS MAYA A tombstone? MS MOLOSE Yes, Ma'am. MS MAYA You have no other requests? Do you have other children? CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 11 NE MOLOSE MS MOLOSE Yes, I have four children. MS MAYA How old are they? MS MOLOSE It is Mzwanantu's older brothers. MS MAYA Thank you Ma'am, I will hand you over to Mr Chairperson now perhaps he has some questions. MS CRICHTON Ms Molose, can you hear me, can you hear me? MS MOLOSE Yes, I can hear you. MS CRICHTON My question is not only to you, but also to Mrs Ndoni, who won't be able to hear me because she hasn't got - thank you, I'm sorry, but I need them both to hear what I have to say. Can you hear me Mrs Ndoni? MS NDONI Yes, I can hear you. MS CRICHTON I am going to take you back to the time when your sons died and you were able to see the bodies and I am sorry that I have to raise this, but I must ask you because the stories that you received were that one son had swallowed a blade the other son had been stabbed and in fact you didn't find any stab wounds on his body. I would like to ask both of you if you could say to me what you think actually happened to your sons? Was there any other indication that you had that there might have been something else that had been done to them? Can you speak first Mrs Molose? MS MOLOSE Yes, I can answer you Ma'am. When they arrested my son, he was well. It is in their hands that he died. MS NDONI Yes, Ma'am. I saw no stab wounds, we looked but there were no wounds. When they took him, he was well. It is in their hands that he died. MS CRICHTON Are you saying to me that you have no idea CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 12 NE MOLOSE then why he did die, there was no indication on his body as to why he died, bruises, nothing like that? MS NDONI I saw nothing on his body, no wounds on his body. MS CRICHTON Thank you, both of you. REVD FINCA Mr Sandi? MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mrs Molose, you said that the police were very cruel at Pearston. MS MOLOSE Pardon sir? MR SANDI You said that the police at Pearston were very cruel? MS MOLOSE Yes, they were very cruel sir. MR SANDI Could you tell us exactly what they did that reflected this cruelty? MS MOLOSE They would beat our children up, they would take them through the night and they wouldn't sleep at home because they would be beaten up by the police. MR SANDI Initially you said there were 15 children, are you talking about children that had been arrested or children that had been shot? MS MOLOSE All in all there were 15 children. MR SANDI Had they been arrested? MS MOLOSE Yes, sir, they had been arrested. MR SANDI Does this number include your children? MS MOLOSE Yes. MR SANDI We heard from certain mothers here yesterday and today that before their children had been shot, the police would threaten the children prior to their deaths. Had your children been threatened at all? MS MOLOSE Yes, they did threaten. First of all they said that they would give them long sentences, so that there is no repetition of what they did. CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 13 NE MOLOSE MR SANDI Who said that? MS MOLOSE It was the Magistrate. MR SANDI And the police, did they say any like thing? Did they threaten your sons' lives at all? MS MOLOSE Koos was the most cruel of them all, a Coloured police. MR SANDI Was he staying in Pearston? MS MOLOSE Yes, he was working there, he stays there. MR SANDI Is he there, where is he now? MS MOLOSE If I am not mistaken, he is still there, because he married a woman from Pearston. MR SANDI Thank you Mrs Molose, thank you Mr Chairperson. REVD FINCA We thank you both very much. We thank you for coming forward with both your stories. We thank you for telling us what happened at East London at St Albans and East London to Buyisile and Mzwabantu. I personally want to say I found your evidence to be special, unique. I now want to see what type of place Pearston is. You struck me with your dignity and you just told the truth as is, you did not fabricate anything, you just told the truth as you understood it, that moved me very much. We thank you for the respect that you have given us reminding us where we come from back home. Where elders show respect even to young people. We thank you very much, may God bless you.