hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-02-10 CRADOCK 1 VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55024&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/cradock/ramncwan.htm REVD FINCA: We welcome you Mr Velile Ramncwana. Reverend Xundu is going to help you to take an oath, after that he will lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission. REVD XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairman. Will you please stand up sir. VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you. Sir, which clan do you belong to? MR RAMNCWANA I am Nyawhoza. REVD XUNDU Mr Nyawhoza, your story here says that in 1965 you were arrested for being a member of POQO, can you please tell us in your own words what happened, thank you. MR RAMNCWANA In 1965 I was in Steynsburg at the time, in October, the 16th of October, we were taken out of the township. It was during the night, I was taken to prison. When I got to prison the police were throwing water all over us the whole night and in the morning they took us to Colesberg and they kept us there. In Colesberg, it was on Saturday, while we were still there, it was Sunday and we were still there and on Monday, we were still there. On Tuesday, we were taken to the offices to be questioned. Dumzela was the first one to be taken there. When he arrived there, he didn't come back to our cell. When I was called, Velile Ramncwana, come out and they opened the door, this Detective came to take me from the cell. When I arrived at the office, there were three Detectives there, Xhosa Detectives, and they showed me a list. I asked them what is on this list and they said to me Dumzela wrote on that list and I have to do the same and then I discovered that POQO was not existing according to what they were telling me. They were beating me and I was on the floor. They were taking face bricks, five face bricks on each side and they gave me two face bricks and I took them, I stood up and they were too heavy for me and I dropped them. They beat me after that, they tortured me. At about half past three in the afternoon, they released me, they took me back to the cell. When I arrived at the cell, I slept and my ears were bleeding. I slept with one side and others were also taken out one by one and they transferred me to Norpoort. When I arrived at Norpoort, it was six of us and they put us in the cell, a black cell. At that cell, they did not open the door, flies were all over the place, they did not give us any water there. On Wednesday, one police lorry came and we were transferred to Cradock. We asked them where are you taking us, they said we are taking you to a place where you've never been. They took us to Cradock to an old prison. We used to go to the office to be questioned there. REVD XUNDU Why were they arresting you? MR RAMNCWANA They said we were members of POQO. REVD XUNDU Did they say that you were in an organisation which was banned? MR RAMNCWANA Yes, they said that we were belonging to POQO and our intention was to kill Boers. REVD XUNDU Were you sentenced? MR RAMNCWANA When we arrived at Cradock, we stayed in prison until December and in March they took us to Port Elizabeth, in Rooi Hell prison. REVD XUNDU Were you sentenced at that time? MR RAMNCWANA No, we were not sentenced. We went to Rooi Hell and then we were questioned there. On the 1st of April, they said that we were found guilty. But they said that we were not guilty, but we are guilty because we were members of POQO. It was then that we were sentenced. And then after that, we were transferred to Braamvlei in Cape Town, in Worcester and we worked there for six months. After that six months, we were transferred to Victor Verster in Paarl, where we worked for a long time. And when the time came for us to be released, I was taken to Benoni prison, near Paarl. We were a lot and we stayed there until we were released and we were taken home. And then when the time came, we were taken home. REVD XUNDU For how long were you sentenced? MR RAMNCWANA I was sentenced for three years. REVD XUNDU And then you were released and you came back home? MR RAMNCWANA Yes, I came back home. REVD XUNDU These police who came to you to take you, do you still remember their names? MR RAMNCWANA No, I don't their names, but they were from Colesberg. They took me with a blanket at night to the van. REVD XUNDU So there is no one you can recognize? MR RAMNCWANA No. REVD XUNDU After you came back, did you manage to get employment? MR RAMNCWANA I stayed for a long time without getting any employment, but eventually I did get a job. I was mending shoes. REVD XUNDU Thank you. As you are here in front of his Commission, do you have any requests to this Commission? Do you want us to assist you in some way? MR RAMNCWANA Yes sir. I would like you to help me with my medical treatment because I can hardly hear now as my ear drums were damaged. REVD XUNDU Is there anything else? MR RAMNCWANA No. REVD XUNDU Do you have children? MR RAMNCWANA Yes, I have many children. REVD XUNDU You don't even know others? MR RAMNCWANA No, I do know my children. I have nine children, but they are old, they are grown up. REVD XUNDU Thank you. They are supporting themselves? MR RAMNCWANA Yes. REVD XUNDU Thank you Mr Nyawhoza, I would hand over to the Chairperson, thank you. REVD FINCA Thank you. Tiny Maya? MS MAYA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ramncwana, I follow that there are other people that were arrested with you, do you still remember their names? MR RAMNCWANA Yes, I do remember them, but others have passed away. MS MAYA Can you please give us a few names? MR RAMNCWANA The first one is Ngemntu Xatu. MS MAYA Where is he now? MR RAMNCWANA He is in Steynsburg. MR MAYA Do you have his details? Where can we find him? We would like you to give us his details afterwards. Who is another one? MR RAMNCWANA Another one is Linyusile Mzdi, he is also in Steynsburg. MS MAYA What about Dumzela, the one you mentioned, who is he? MR RAMNCWANA Dumzela is the surname. MS MAYA Is he the one who is in Steynsburg? MR RAMNCWANA No, he is in Matatiele. MS MAYA Is he still alive? MR RAMNCWANA I don't know, but I think he is still alive. MS MAYA This POQO organisation, what was it, what was the organisation doing as you were arrested? MR RAMNCWANA I was not doing anything, I was just a member. MS MAYA Were you just a member? MR RAMNCWANA No, at that time I was not a member. MS MAYA The others who were arrested together with you, were they members of POQO? MR RAMNCWANA No, they were not members of POQO. MS MAYA Why do you think the police said that you were members of POQO, what was your involvement with POQO? What was your involvement in the community? MR RAMNCWANA I think that the police were just accusing us. MS MAYA Were you involved in any political activities at that time? MR RAMNCWANA No. REVD FINCA June Crichton? MS CRICHTON Mr Ramncwana, I would like to ask your opinion about something. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? I am sorry to put you to this trouble of putting those earphones on, but I need to ask your opinion about something. Could you tell me why you think the authorities transferred you to no less than seven different prisons in the time that you were sentenced? That is the first question. The second is to ask you were those the three years that you were sentenced for, the times that you were transferred, or did you do the sentence after that? MR RAMNCWANA I was sentenced in Port Elizabeth and then I was transferred to Brandvlei, from there I was taken to Paarl. From Paarl I was taken to Benoni and I was sentenced at that time. MS CRICHTON Let us go back to my first question. What do you think was the reason for them moving you around so much? Did they move just you or were they moving everybody who were part of this organisation around like that? MR RAMNCWANA Everybody was transferred from one place to another, we were 56 in total and we were all shifted from one place to another. MS CRICHTON Why do you think did they do that? MR RAMNCWANA I don't know, but I still want to know why they were doing that to us. REVD FINCA Mr Sandi? MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Ramncwana, I would ask you three questions with the intention of trying to find out that when people who were arrested in the 1960's, how were they treated? There are very few people who appear in front of this Commission, complaining about what happened to them in the 1960's. Firstly, at the time you appeared in court, did you have any legal representative? MR RAMNCWANA No. MR SANDI Do you have anything to say concerning the court case, the procedures of the court case, how the Magistrate and the Prosecutor handled your case as you were not legally represented? MR RAMNCWANA We were sentenced for three years because there was no one representing us. And they said that because we were called at POQO people, we will be sentenced for three years, but it is clear that we were not guilty, but as we were allegedly belonging to POQO, we will be sentenced for three years. MR SANDI I am not sure, Mr Ramncwana, whether my question is clear to you. I request you to tell us clearly what was happening in court? Were you satisfied with the procedures of the court? MR RAMNCWANA No, we were not satisfied sir, but because the Magistrate said I sentence you for three years, but you are not guilty, we were not satisfied about that, because we didn't know why we were found guilty. MR SANDI How long did this case last? MR RAMNCWANA We came from Cradock with Magistrate Koen to Port Elizabeth. MR SANDI On the day when your case was in court, did it take the whole day or two days, or three days? I am not talking about when you go to court and then the case is being postponed, but I am asking you for how long did this case take place? MR RAMNCWANA It was only one day and then they told us to come the next day to be sentenced. MR SANDI You said that this case took only one day? How many were you? MR RAMNCWANA We were 56 in total. MR SANDI You were 56 in total? MR RAMNCWANA Yes, we were 56. MR SANDI Thank you. REVD FINCA Mr Velile, the 56 people you have mentioned, were they from the same place or from different places? MR RAMNCWANA They were all from Steynsburg. They were all coming from Steynsburg. REVD FINCA And all these people were accused of being POQO members? MR RAMNCWANA Yes. REVD FINCA Mr Sandi? MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. I apologize Mr Ramncwana for coming back to you. At the time when you were in court, was it during the day or at night? MR RAMNCWANA It was during the day. MR SANDI Were you all given a chance to respond to this case? MR RAMNCWANA Yes, we were responding to this case. MR SANDI Do you mean all of you, the 56 of you had a chance to answer for yourselves? MR RAMNCWANA Yes, we did. MR SANDI I am sure that you all said that you were innocent? MR RAMNCWANA Yes, we said that we were innocent. MR SANDI Thank you Mr Ramncwana. REVD FINCA Mr Velile Ramncwana, we thank you. Thank you for reminding us about the 1960's and for reminding us about the activities of POQO, although you are denying that you were a member of POQO. I know that our people suffered a lot. As a result now they cannot differentiate or they cannot know where to deny or to accept responsibility, but all of us, those who know the history of this country, we remember the activities of POQO in this country - to keep the light when the times were dark in this country. Many people were arrested at that time as you were telling us your story. Thank you for reminding us about that time. Many people who are active today, they started being active during the 1990's when things were getting better. They started to be involved. We thank you for reminding us that there are people who were active in those dark days when things were very bad. When there was no hope for life and we salute these people as heroes of our country, because it is easy to be active when things are better, it is very hard to be active when days are dark and things are very difficult, when we are only dreaming of liberation. We thank you for reminding us about that time. There are questions that we will make a follow up about in your story, together with the 56 people, if they are still alive. For now, we thank you and we promise that we will follow your story, thank you.