hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-02-05 BENONI 1 ROSE MARY TSHABALALA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55052&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/duduza/tshabala.htm MR LEWIN We ask the next witness, Rose-Mary Tshabalala to come forward. Thank you. Before I ask Fazel Randera to lead in your evidence could you please stand and take the oath. MS TSHABALALA (sworn states) DR RANDERA Can you hear me? MS TSHABALALA Yes I can hear you. DR RANDERA Can you introduce the lady who has come with you today? MS TSHABALALA It is my aunt. DR RANDERA I welcome your aunt as well. Rose we have already heard stories this morning of people who have lost loved ones. You are taking us to 1986 and you are going to tell us about the death of your brother who was four years old at the time. Can you take your time and just tell us what happened? MS TSHABALALA My brother was going to play outside and at the time the Casper was approaching and my brother got under the Casper and it ran over him. MR LEWIN Could we please have quiet in the hall? Those people at the back could we please have quiet? MS TSHABALALA He just wanted to cross the road and go to his friends, but at the time the Casper was coming and he was trapped in between the big wheels of the Casper and they took him out and when my mother wanted to take the body they refused to give her the body of my brother. They took him with. They said they were going to bury him, but they never actually buried him. They came back and went to my neighbour's place and they asked my neighbour as to why they phoned the police and he was buried by the ANC. DR RANDERA Rose, just take your time. Drink some water. I want to ask you a few questions if that is ok with you? How old were you at the time Rose? MS TSHABALALA I was 15 years old. DR RANDERA Were you at home when your brother was killed? MS TSHABALALA Yes I was at home. DR RANDERA From your statement I know that your mother and your father have now passed away. MS TSHABALALA That is correct. DR RANDERA Can you please tell us what was happening at the township at the time? Why were there Hippo's in the streets? MS TSHABALALA There was nothing that had happened on that particular day, but the Hippo's were moving up and down the streets. DR RANDERA Can we just move away from that particular day, just in that period was there anything else happening that made it necessary for the Hippo's to be present? MS TSHABALALA No, there was nothing happening during that period. DR RANDERA Now at the time, was your brother just running across the road? Was he on the road? What actually happened? MS TSHABALALA He went out of the house. He was running and he was trying to cross the street and go to play with other children, only to find that the Casper was approaching and that it was approaching at a very high speed. DR RANDERA Was it a police Casper or an army Casper? MS TSHABALALA It was a military Casper. DR RANDERA And Rose, from your statement it says that your parents did go to the police station in Actonville to make a statement. Did anything come out of that? MS TSHABALALA The police kept on coming, saying that they were going to bury my brother. And the case never went any further. DR RANDERA And you never heard after that? MS TSHABALALA That was the end of it. Nothing was done. DR RANDERA Did your parents contact any lawyers from the human rights organisations? And you said earlier on that the ANC helped with the funeral. Did the ANC provide any legal assistance? MS TSHABALALA My mother never communicated that to me so I am not really positive as to what happened, because some of the things she never communicated to me. DR RANDERA Thank you Chairperson. I have no other questions. MR LEWIN Thank you. Joyce? Tom? MR MANTHATA At that time you were 15 years of age. Were you attending school Rose? MS TSHABALALA Yes, I was attending school. MR MANTHATA And as Dr Randera asked, what was happening around that time. As a student what was happening in that community at that time? By the time, roughly it was the whole of that year, 1986, before the incident or even after the incident. That is, incidents that could have attracted the police into Wattville. MS TSHABALALA I noticed nothing, but what they used to say was that they did not see any of us in the streets in the evening, but at the time it was not in the evening, it was four o'clock in the afternoon. MR MANTHATA So it is true that, there was nothing happening in that area, but about the outlying area. MS TSHABALALA But at the time they did not want to see any people around the streets during the night. I think there was some sort of emergency. MR MANTHATA But there had not been deaths, arrests, demonstrations, you know, public meetings? MS TSHABALALA No, there was absolutely nothing of the sort. MR MANTHATA Thank you, I have no further questions. DR ALLY Rosemary, the witness to this incident, has the witness made a statement? Is it possible for the witness to make a statement, who actually saw the accident, saw your brother being run over? MS TSHABALALA Yes, she was able to make a statement but she is not present at the moment. She is no longer staying at Wattville. DR ALLY Do you know how she could be contacted? MS TSHABALALA I think she stays in Augus. DR ALLY Could you leave a possible address, or we can try and approach her with one of the members of the staff? MS TSHABALALA I think I can try and get hold of the address, because she used to stay next to my place, but she since moved. DR ALLY That is important, because if she can shed some light in what actually happened, because the other witness was your mother and your mother is now dead you see. When the police took your brother, refused to give your brother back to the family immediately, what was the reason for that? Were they taking him to this hospital, to a doctor? Do you know? MS TSHABALALA They just did not want us to take my brother. The other soldier was carrying him on his shoulders and he did not want any people to come closer and they were actually keeping guard around the soldier who was carrying my brother. And they took him with. DR ALLY Thank you. DR RANDERA Rose-Mary can I ask is there anything else you would like to tell us, anything else you would like to say? MS TSHABALALA I think I am through. I said all I wanted to say. MR LEWIN We would like to express our thanks to you for coming here to tell this story. It must be very difficult for you. Your brother was one of a large number of innocent victims of the struggle. You and your family have suffered as well and I have said before, there is very little that we can actually say to provide any real comfort for you. Nobody and nothing can actually ever compensate for the loss of a brother, of a family member and in this we are truly sympathetic to you. What I could offer is that in the discussions which are taking place at the moment with the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee, there are suggestions for some sort of symbolic memorial which we hope to make recommendations about, so that people like your brother who died so senselessly, that their deaths will never be forgotten. And we would like to appeal to people who have ideas about what those memorials could be, what shape they could be, whether they are actual memorials as we know them or whether they are living memorials. We would like people to come forward with those suggestions. And we would like to again, thank you very much for coming.