hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-09-24 DUNCAN VILLAGE 2 ROGERS GQEME https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55061&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/duncan/gqeme.htm REVD FINCA: These three victims are going to give us additional information that is also connected to the Duncan Village massacre. I'm going to ask Revd Xundu to swear them in and also to lead them on behalf of the Commission. REVD XUNDU Thank you Chairperson. Rogers Gqeme, I would like to swear you in, could you rise? ROGERS GQEME (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you. The next to be sworn in is going to be Nomonde Mahlanza. NOMONDE MAHLANZA (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you. Mzwakhe Mvubu. MZWAKHE MVUBU (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you. Rogers Gqeme, you are going to be the first person who we are going to listen to. REVD FINCA There is some noise outside which is a disturbance to us, so I suggest we adjourn and to come back at eleven o'clock, thank you. REVD XUNDU Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. Rogers, could you come closer to the microphone. What is your claim name Rogers? R GQEME My claim name is Mtandi. REVD XUNDU Thank you. Let us take it easy. Now you say you were shot by the police, could you tell us in full what was happening on that day? R GQEME We were in the Roman Catholic Church where there DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 R GQEME was a meeting of the youth. REVD XUNDU What kind of a meeting was this? R GQEME It was a meeting for the youth. REVD XUNDU And what happened? R GQEME These White people came in a casper and parked outside and sent someone, a tall man who looked like a Coloured person, and was dressed like a Minister of religion. REVD XUNDU And what did he say to you? R GQEME He asked, he said that we were asked to go out of this hall and to disperse by order. REVD XUNDU Did you go away? R GQEME No, we didn't. The house, the room was full and people were chanting freedom songs and some people did not hear what this man was saying. REVD XUNDU Then, did you ultimately leave the hall? R GQEME This White person insisted that we should go out of the hall and disperse and this took about 15 minutes and we went away as people who were standing outside, since the hall was packed and we were in fear that these Whites were going to shoot us. REVD XUNDU As you were there, did you go as a crowd? R GQEME Yes, we walked passed these Whites. Some of us walked down Dendes Street and down Dunga Street and we joined the rest and the bridge. Those - that was the crowd that was toyi-toying and we moved towards Sipunzana. REVD XUNDU Is this the time when this White person came? R GQEME They followed us in their casper, leaving the people behind in the hall, following the march. REVD XUNDU So when you saw the caspers, did you run away and scatter? DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 R GQEME R GQEME No, we didn't, instead we proceeded and then these policemen started shooting at us, but some of us who were not aware until we got next to the cemetery and I could see people running away, people falling and then as I was going up I could see a certain White man in a casper and he called me, but I ran away and he shot me in the arm. REVD XUNDU And after you were shot, you actually took you to hospital? R GQEME I ran away and he again shot me on the waist and I fell facing upwards and I asked him to pick me up. I struggled trying to stand, though I was aware that I had been shot. Then I could see that I was injured and my legs were feeling very weak. Then this White person came to me, handled me by the collar, pulled me towards the casper and there were two of these caspers parked there and he placed me just behind one of them. REVD XUNDU Now, what ultimately happened. Did you end up landing in hospital? At the end of all this struggle, did they take you to the hospital? R GQEME Yes. The police took me to hospital and they were assisted by some people to take me onto the police truck which drove to the hospital. REVD XUNDU Did you see any Doctor in the hospital? Did you get any attention from any Doctor there in hospital? R GQEME When I got to hospital I was driven into the OPD in a stretcher and there was a White Doctor who looked at me and there was a big hole here on my hip and he asked these White men why they had injured me so severely. And these White persons laughed because they were young, very young. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 R GQEME REVD XUNDU I would like to ask a question. Do you perhaps know the name of this Doctor who attended to you? R GQEME No, I don't know his name. REVD XUNDU But could you identify him if you were to see him? R GQEME Yes, I think I could. REVD XUNDU In your story I want to know was there any investigation after this shooting or perhaps did you institute a claim or did you perhaps get any compensation? R GQEME No, I didn't do any of those. We didn't even make an attempt. REVD XUNDU Were you working at the time? R GQEME Yes, I was working at Westbank. REVD XUNDU Were you able to work after this incident? R GQEME Yes, I was working, but it was very difficult, because I still have a bullet that is still embedded in my spine because they could not take it out. REVD XUNDU Did you perhaps go back to your old employers or did you have to look for a new job? R GQEME When I was discharged at the place where I used to work. REVD XUNDU Did those people accept you back when you were discharged from hospital? R GQEME No, my employers discharged me as soon as I was released from hospital. REVD XUNDU Do you know the name of them? Do you know the name of the factory? R GQEME It is called the NCI Industry. REVD XUNDU When you were discharged, did you perhaps get any grant? R GQEME No. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 5 R GQEME REVD XUNDU Do you still get medical treatment? R GQEME No, I seldom go to hospital to get some medical treatment. REVD XUNDU Do you perhaps have any wish or any requests that you have to say to this Commission? R GQEME I wish this Commission could organise that I get medical treatment. REVD XUNDU And is there any other requests you have in addition to that? R GQEME I also wish that this Commission could investigate about this person who shot me. REVD XUNDU Is there any other thing? R GQEME I want to see this perpetrator face to face because I will never forgive him, I just don't have peace. REVD XUNDU Is that all you have to say or is there anything you would like to say in addition to what you have said already? R GQEME I also wish that this Commission could be of assistance to me because I - my health is not good, I don't feel all right. REVD XUNDU Thank you, I hand you over to the Chairperson. REVD FINCA We thank you. We are now going to ask Nomonde Cynthia Mahlanza to come forward. REVD XUNDU I greet you Nomonde. What is your claim name by the way? NC MAHLANZA My claim name is Nozulu. REVD XUNDU Could you tell us your story and tell us what happened to you on the 14th of August. NC MAHLANZA I saw some White people coming into my house and they took my brother away and they put him on the DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 NC MAHLANZA casper and they left with him that afternoon. Then I asked my children that we should pray when he did not come back. Early the following day a certain person came to tell us that my brother had come and my brother was taken to hospital and as the Doctor was examining my brother, my brother died. REVD XUNDU Who is Mzwandile? NC MAHLANZA Mzwandile is a boy who lives in our neighbourhood. REVD XUNDU Do you perhaps know his name? NC MAHLANZA Yes, I know his surname. REVD XUNDU When you got to hospital, that is where he was certified dead? NC MAHLANZA Yes. REVD XUNDU Was there any investigation about this death? His body - was there any post-mortem that was done or any inquest that was done? NC MAHLANZA No. REVD XUNDU How old was your brother when he died? NC MAHLANZA I don't know, but he was born in 1959. In fact the one that died was born in 1964. REVD XUNDU What is your request to this Commission? NC MAHLANZA I'm asking that the Commission should help me because I have three young children. REVD XUNDU Whose children are these? NC MAHLANZA No, they are my sister's children and they are dependent on me. REVD XUNDU Do you perhaps get any grant? NC MAHLANZA Yes, I've just got this grant. REVD XUNDU Is that all you have to say? NC MAHLANZA Yes. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 7 NC MAHLANZA REVD FINCA Tiny Maya. MS MAYA Ms Mahlanza, I would like to ask you some questions. You say there was some SADF soldiers who came to collect your brother. Do you perhaps know who these soldiers were? Is there any other person who saw this? NC MAHLANZA Yes, there are many people, because it was in the afternoon. MS MAYA So you last saw your brother when these soldiers came to fetch him? NC MAHLANZA Yes. MS MAYA And the last time you heard, was that he was injured? Is there any person who told you the extend of the injuries or what had happened to him? NC MAHLANZA No, I don't know, but I think they assaulted him. MS MAYA What did Mzwandile say - he met your brother? NC MAHLANZA He said he met him somewhere crawling. MS MAYA According to what you know, was he still in a position to speak at the time? NC MAHLANZA I don't know. MS MAYA In our statement here you say he died from assault and from kicking. Where did you get all this information? NC MAHLANZA They got this information from me. MS MAYA Yes. NC MAHLANZA I was assuming that they had assaulted him and kicked him. MS MAYA Was there any eyewitness that actually saw when they were hitting him? NC MAHLANZA No there wasn't none. MS MAYA Did he have any children? NC MAHLANZA No, he did not have any children. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 8 M MVUBU MS MAYA Thank you. REVD FINCA We are now going to ask Mzwakhe Mvubu. (tape ends) M MVUBU (tape starts) ... and whilst I was at the bridge just nearby I saw some White policemen and soldiers coming from one direction. There was some other people in front of me. REVD XUNDU Were these people, were this White persons dressed in uniform? M MVUBU Yes, they were in caspers. I then saw one of the people in front of me falling. I immediately ran away and I think that is when I was shot and I fell. I lost consciousness, when I regained consciousness, I was in hospital. REVD XUNDU How long were you there? M MVUBU I was there for two months. And I had to go for some therapy for my arm. The Doctor who was a Doctor Appavo, when I was discharged, I went back to work, but I still felt pain on my head and I went to a Doctor for an examination and I told him that I had some pain on my head. And he asked whether I had ever been injured, and I explained, so he sent me for X-rays and he could determine that there were still some bullets on my head which are still embedded right now. REVD XUNDU Did they take you back at work? M MVUBU Yes. REVD XUNDU And so you worked for a while. How did you stop to work? M MVUBU They accused me of stealing paint. REVD XUNDU Yes? M MVUBU They were selling paint and I gave some money to DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 9 M MVUBU a certain Coloured person but I was the one who were accused as having stolen this paint and after all this is the paint that I had paid for. REVD XUNDU Did you refer this matter to the Union and what did they say? M MVUBU I did refer the matter to the Union and they asked me to appeal to a court, but later on they said everything depended on my employers. So when Mr Pinnock, the Director came, this White person - this employer said they had discovered that I had paid the money, but they laid another charge now that I had used some other empty tins and so they asked me to leave my work, so I reported the matter to the Union. REVD XUNDU Do you perhaps have children? M MVUBU Yes, I have. My last baby is 34 days old. REVD XUNDU Are you married? M MVUBU Yes, I have a wife. REVD XUNDU Do you have one wife? M MVUBU Yes, I have one wife. REVD XUNDU What standards are your children? M MVUBU One is in standard two and another one is in sub A and then the baby who's not - is still very young. REVD XUNDU Do you perhaps get any grant? M MVUBU No, I did not apply for one, but my wife gets some part-time job. Unfortunately she got pregnant and she had to stop working. My request to this Commission is that I cannot get employment full time, because they always see that I have got a problem with my health and now I see that I do not have a bright future. Therefor I request that this Commission should pay for my children's education. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 10 M MVUBU REVD XUNDU Is that all you have? M MVUBU Yes. That is all I have. REVD FINCA Mr Sandi? M MVUBU Yes, I did go to lawyer Lalla and his secretary who was a Black told me that I was late because after three months, they do not accept a case. MR SANDI At the time you went to Mr Lalla, how long was it after this incident? M MVUBU It was four months after the incident, because I spent two months in hospital. MR SANDI Did you again go back to Mr Lalla? M MVUBU No. MR SANDI Is there any other lawyer that you perhaps went to see? M MVUBU No, there is none. MR SANDI Thank you. REVD FINCA We thank you Mr Gqeme, Ms Mahlanza and Mr Mvubu for your evidence and testimony as given to the Commission. Mr Gqeme mentioned something which people may misconstrue when he said when we were looking at him, he said he would like to see this people face to face, referring to the perpetrators and he said that he hasn't got peace with them. Though this may be taken by other people up otherwise, but it is sending a message to the perpetrators of this atrocities that what they did to the people should not be considered lightly. Though I see that they did not care what has been done by the Truth Commission. They did not have a deep consideration of what they have done. We therefor want to DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 11 send word to them that they should listen that peace and reconciliation in this country, is solely dependent on them by them taking everything serious. They have injured and shattered people's lives whereby people have got to go on living with some bullets within their bodies and this is something very serious. And we therefor wish that the people who are responsible for all this should come forward on their own, so that this Commission should make them see the people they did all these things to. If they do not come forward, there is just no possibility of reconciliation. We therefor thank you for bringing forward your testimony. We are going to look into all the things you have said to us. And I will therefore ask you to take your seats.