hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-09-24 DUNCAN VILLAGE 2 SAKHILE MACWASHE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55064&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/duncan/macwashe.htm REVD FINCA: We would now call Sakhile Macwashe and Griffiths Fivana and Nomfundu Daisy Dodo. REVD XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairman. I would like you to take an oath. Sakhile, please stand up. SAKHILE MACWASHE (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you. Griffiths, please stand up. GRIFFITHS FIVANA (sworn states) REVD FINCA Thank you. Thank you, we welcome you and we'll give this opportunity to Ms Maya who will ask you questions. Thank you. MS MAYA Thank you Mr Chairman. Sakhile, let me start with you. In August 1985, you were shot. You say you were playing with children of your age group and you got shot by soldiers. How old were you at this time? S MACWASHE I think I was 15 years old if I still remember very well. MS MAYA What happened when the soldiers shot you? S MACWASHE We were playing and the soldiers came and shot us. Our mistake is that we ran away. My friends were running away and I told them not to, but they ran away and they left me there alone. While I was there alone, I asked myself why am I not running and then I ran and that was the mistake I did. I went to the next door house, my next door house and I am not sure about the first bullet, but what I remember is DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 S MACWASHE that people were crying and they saw blood. They were saying blood, blood. And I fell down while I was trying to stand up, I could feel another bullet passing through my stomach and I slept down there and these boers came. They came next to me, they dug a hole and they wanted to put me in that hole. MS MAYA Who was digging this hole and where? S MACWASHE It was in Msimango in 1986. MS MAYA Who was digging the hole? S MACWASHE Can you please repeat? MS MAYA Who was digging the hole Sakhile? S MACWASHE It was these boers. MS MAYA Where in Msimango? S MACWASHE Next to the four roomed houses. MS MAYA Were there houses where they were digging this hole? S MACWASHE Yes. MS MAYA Who took you from the place you fell? S MACWASHE These boers came and they took me because people were crying and they took me with their car to hospital. MS MAYA The soldiers took you to hospital? S MACWASHE Yes. MS MAYA How much were you injured? S MACWASHE In my legs and my shoulders. In my forehead. MS MAYA Were these bullets taken out at the hospital? S MACWASHE Yes, in my leg. MS MAYA Do you still have any other bullets in your body? S MACWASHE I'm not sure, I can't say for sure. MS MAYA How long did you stay in the hospital? S MACWASHE I stayed for a long time there. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 S MACWASHE MS MAYA Can you please estimate how many weeks or months? S MACWASHE It was months, but I'm not sure how many. MS MAYA At this time you said you were 15 years old. Were you at school? S MACWASHE Yes. MS MAYA Which standard were you? S MACWASHE I was in standard 3. MS MAYA Did you go back to school after you were shot? S MACWASHE Yes, I did. MS MAYA Did you continue with your education? S MACWASHE Yes, but I dropped out at standard 5. MS MAYA When you were dropping out at school, does that have anything to do (tape ends) Do you still feel that you have to see Doctors? S MACWASHE Yes, my head is not right, but I'm not going to any Doctors. MS MAYA What do you feel in your head? S MACWASHE My head is not, my memory is not good. MS MAYA But do you go to any Doctors? S MACWASHE No, I don't go to any Doctor. MS MAYA Do you have a reason for that, for not going to Doctors? S MACWASHE No, there is no reason for that. MS MAYA Do you need any help so that you can go back to a Doctor? Do you want to be helped so that you can go back to the Doctor? S MACWASHE Yes. MS MAYA After you were discharged from the hospital, what happened to you? S MACWASHE After I was discharged from the hospital, the soldiers left a notice that the nurses should phone them. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 S MACWASHE MS MAYA Where did this soldiers leave this message? S MACWASHE They left the message with the nurses. MS MAYA Did the nurses phone the soldiers? S MACWASHE No, they didn't phone them, but they just told me that that was the day for me to go home. MS MAYA When you arrived at home, what happened? S MACWASHE When they told me that I have to go home, I went, I did prepare myself and then I went home. When I was arriving at home, I slept and the next day I went to visit a friend. MS MAYA Can we continue Sakhile? S MACWASHE Yes, please continue. MS MAYA In your statement you said that while visiting your friend you saw a hippo going to where you were staying. What happened after that? S MACWASHE When - I was scared. I ran away and I ran into the house and they told me that the hippo doesn't want me, it was just passing. It stopped near my house. The soldiers wanted to see me and someone called me. I responded. MS MAYA Who was calling you? S MACWASHE The owner of the house called me. I went to the soldiers and they asked who I was. Before I answered them, I asked them a question "what was the problem?" While we were still arguing, I told them my name. MS MAYA What did they do to you after you told them who you were? S MACWASHE They said they are taking me with their hippo. MS MAYA Did they tell you where they are taking you to? Did they tell you why they want to go with you? DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 5 S MACWASHE S MACWASHE I said to them I'm not going with them, because I didn't know where I was going. They just said I must come with them and then I said to them they must tell the owner of the house where they are taking me, so that the owner can tell my father where I was, but they didn't do that. What they did, they tried to push me to the hippo and we struggled, because I didn't want to go with them. MS MAYA Did you go to the hippo with them? S MACWASHE Yes, I did because they all struggled with me, taking me with them to the hippo. They drove around the township and then they went with me to the C-Section, but unfortunately they were looking for a certain number, but they asked a man who just arrived at this Section. They also took that man and they assaulted him. While they were doing that to that man, they wanted him to say that he is an informer to tell people that he is an informer, because at that time, if you were found to be an informer people were burning you. MS MAYA What happened after that? S MACWASHE After that they said that they - that man must go out, but he couldn't because the door was high and they kicked him out while the hippo was still moving. MS MAYA Do you know what happened to that man? S MACWASHE No. MS MAYA Do you know who the man was? S MACWASHE No, I don't. It was the first time I met him. MS MAYA What happened to you after they drove around the township, where did they take you to? S MACWASHE They took me to Fleet Street police station DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 S MACWASHE and they took my finger prints and then I told them that I didn't do anything, why should they take my finger prints. That is where they started kicking me, they forced me, they forced to take my finger prints and they were assaulting me at that time. MS MAYA Do you remember any soldiers or policemen who were there? S MACWASHE No, I don't remember any. MS MAYA What happened in Fleet Street, how long did you stay there? S MACWASHE They took me to Westbank the next day. In Fleet Street they gave me a porridge and I didn't know what was within that porridge, it looked dirty. MS MAYA Let us continue Sakhile. In your statement you said that you were not charged, but you just stayed in prison for 9 months, is that so? S MACWASHE Yes. MS MAYA What happened to you? S MACWASHE They released me because they said I was not charged. They didn't find me guilty. I went once in court and they didn't find me guilty. MS MAYA Did you have any lawyer? S MACWASHE I don't remember. MS MAYA Do you have a request to ask from this Commission, except the request that you want to be helped to go back to the Doctors, do you have any other request? S MACWASHE Yes, I do. MS MAYA What is your request? S MACWASHE My request is that I want the Commission to do anything for me what it can - it can do anything for me. MS MAYA I'll give this opportunity to the Chairperson. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 7 S MACWASHE REVD FINCA Revd Xundu? REVD XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairman. Do you get any pension? S MACWASHE No, I don't. REVD XUNDU Did you apply for it? S MACWASHE No. REVD XUNDU Are you employed? S MACWASHE No, I'm unemployed. REVD XUNDU Do you have a wife and children? S MACWASHE No, I don't. REVD XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairman. REVD FINCA Thank you Mr Macwashe. We will now call on Mr Fivana. MS MAYA Mr Fivana, can you hear me? G FIVANA Yes. MS MAYA In August 1985, you said you were shot here in Duncan Village by the soldiers of the South African Defence Force. You said you were amongst the people who were toyi-toying. What really happened? G FIVANA Yes. MS MAYA Please come nearer to the mike so that we can hear you. G FIVANA Yes, I was one of the people who were toyi-toying. MS MAYA Do you remember what was happening at that day? G FIVANA Yes, at that time, it was a very difficult time. We were toyi-toying and the soldiers were shooting us. MS MAYA Were you a member of any political organisation or were you active in politics? G FIVANA Can you please repeat your question? MS MAYA Were you a member of a political organisation around the township or did you play any part in politics at DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 8 G FIVANA that time? G FIVANA I was not a member, but I was under ANC. MS MAYA What happened when you were shot? G FIVANA We were toyi-toying on that day. MS MAYA Where were you? Where were you exactly? G FIVANA We were here in Dunga. MS MAYA Do you still remember the date here in August? G FIVANA No, I don't. I just remember the day. MS MAYA Which day was it? G FIVANA It was on Tuesday. MS MAYA Was it this Tuesday of the first week when this unrest started here in Duncan Village? G FIVANA Yes. MS MAYA Where did the soldiers shoot you? G FIVANA They shot me all over my body - my legs, my hands. MS MAYA Did you go to hospital? G FIVANA No, I didn't, because at that time when you went to hospital, the soldiers were taking you to prison so that's why I didn't go to hospital. Just went to the clinic here in Dugashe. MS MAYA When did you go to the clinic, was it the same day? When did you go to the clinic? G FIVANA I went to the clinic on the next day, the day after I got shot. MS MAYA Did you sat with these bullets in your body? G FIVANA Yes. MS MAYA And then what happened? G FIVANA I went to the clinic and they gave me medicine to apply to the places where I was shot. They just said the bullets will just come out, that didn't happen. I stayed and I could feel the pellets in my body, my DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 9 G FIVANA body was in pain and then in September I went to Transkei where I was admitted at Tafalofefe hospital, they removed the three pellets in my body. And other bullets, I just removed them myself with a blade. MS MAYA What happened in Tafalofefe in Transkei? Do you have any relatives there? G FIVANA No, there is no one I know in that place but because I was afraid of going to prison, I went to Transkei.. MS MAYA Mr Fivana, at the time you were shot, were you employed? G FIVANA No, but I just used to get one day jobs. MS MAYA After you were shot, did your life go back to the normal way? G FIVANA No, I didn't feel, I'm still not feeling all right at this present moment. MS MAYA Are you employed now? G FIVANA No. MS MAYA Do you have a family - wife and children? G FIVANA Yes, I do have a wife and a child. MS MAYA Did you make any claim or did you get any money? G FIVANA No, I didn't claim. MS MAYA Did you get any other help or help from the Government? G FIVANA No. MS MAYA What supports you with your family? G FIVANA I just live with the one day jobs to support my family. MS MAYA Do you have any other thing you want to raise in front of this Commission? G FIVANA The request I would like to make to this DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 10 G FIVANA Commission, I want the Commission to help me since I'm unemployed. MS MAYA In what way? G FIVANA Firstly I'm suffering and I can't even support myself. I can't buy clothes for myself because I'm unemployed and I can't even support my child. MS MAYA How old is your child? G FIVANA My child is 9 months old. MS MAYA Do you have any other request? G FIVANA I would like the Commission to help me. MS MAYA Thank you Mr Fivana, I'll give this opportunity to the Chairman - maybe he's got questions to ask you. Thank you. REVD FINCA Now, June Crichton. MS CRICHTON Can you hear me Mr Fivana? Can you hear me? I just have one more question, that is whereabouts exactly were you when you were shot? You say you were toyi-toying, but in what area, what part of Duncan Village? G FIVANA I was shot here in Dunga Street. MS CRICHTON Thank you. REVD FINCA Ntsikelelo Sandi? MR SANDI Mr Fivana, on this day you were toyi-toying in the street, what time was it? G FIVANA It was early in the morning. MR SANDI How did you know that there was going to be a toyi-toyi? Did you just see people toyi-toying or were you called by someone? G FIVANA Everybody was toyi-toying at that time. MR SANDI Were there any other people who were injured at that time? G FIVANA Yes, there were many other people who were DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 11 G FIVANA injured. MR SANDI Do you know any people you know who was shot at that time? G FIVANA No, I don't know these people. There is no one I can say I know. MR SANDI In Pefferville Clinic - on the day you went there, what happened in the clinic? G FIVANA We went there to the clinic, I was not the only one. There were also others who went with me. The nurse who was there was on duty, treated us. He just applied a red ointment to our wounds. MR SANDI Thank you Mr Fivana. Thank you Mr Chairman. REVD FINCA Thank you Mr Fivana and Mr Macwashe who had to leave. I think, your testimony or your evidence would help us to clarify what happened on the day people were shot and people were injured, others were killed in the massacre which continued for three days. Thank you for your evidence which you brought forward because your evidence is important and it gives clarity to what happened at that time. Your requests which you brought forward to this Commission, we will look at them and we will forward them to the President who is going to see what he can do. Thank you very much and we also thank Mr Sakhile Macwashe, wherever he is now. Thank you, you can now go back to your place.