hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-09-24 DUNCAN VILLAGE 2 WELE RUBUSHE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55073&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/duncan/rubushe.htm REVD FINCA: We have you here in this hearing. I must also thank you for the way you handled us yesterday. And even your resounding attendance and your respect that you awarded to us because - and you showed that you see the seriousness of this work whereby we have to listen to the painful things that happened to the people during the times of repression. Once more these witnesses here in front of us are going to give their evidence to this Commission and we hope that you are once more going to show the respect to them as they come forward. I will also like to extend and convey a message from Archbishop Reverend Desmond Tutu, who is the Chairman of this Commission. He has said that due to his involvement somewhere, he is unable to be present here with us, but he would like to say to all of you especially to the witnesses, his greetings and he cares so much about whatever you have to say to this Commission. Let me once more introduce to you this panel of my colleagues who work with me in this hearing in Duncan Village and we are a part of the main Commission though we are based here in the Eastern Cape. Firstly I would like to introduce to you on my extreme left, Adv Sandi who has taken a long time working and learning a lot about the Human Right issues and he even had DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 to go to Universities abroad and therefor his name came up as one of the people to form this Commission. He hails from Grahamstown and he helps people who want to get assistance whenever they have some serious cases. Thank you. Next to me here the lady seated next to me is June Crichton. She comes from work as an activist for Human Rights issues as a member of BLACK SASH and also as an active member of the Anglican Church. There was a time when she was away from our region because of ill health, she has recently returned to rejoin the work of our region. We are delighted to have her, she comes from Port Elizabeth, June Crichton. Next to me we have a lady - with her experience by the name of Tiny Maya who hails from Umtata and who has been working for the Black Lawyers' Association during the time of oppression. At the time they were this law that has made it possible that there should be this Commission. Dulah Omar sent out some lawyer's to the overseas countries to go and observe what happens during the transitional period, so Mr Maya was one of those people who was sent overseas to go and observe and get some more information in preparation for this. Next to Ms Maya we've got a young man there who is - comes from Port Elizabeth. As you can see he is quite young, and he is Revd Xundu, who is one who has had great contribution during our struggle in this country. And his leadership is well known in the country. He has worked for a long time in Transkei during the Mtanzima regime, being arrested and locked in and I would have to take care of his family during his absence. He again moved on to Lamontville in Natal such that he narrowly escaped death, but he is DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 presently based in Port Elizabeth - one of the most outstanding leaders of our people through the time of struggle. He is a member of the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee, thank you. So I happen to be the head of all these distinguished people which has made it possible for this region to progress because these are stable people and people who are rooted in this community. We are then going to start with our work on this last day here in Duncan Village by listening to and focusing on the massacre that occurred on the three days from the 10th to the 12th of August in 1985, which erupted from the funeral of Griffiths, of Ms Victoria Mxenge's funeral. With intention that we are going to be through with that and after lunch, we shall therefor listen to cases of Human Rights Violation, with intention to finish up by four o'clock. We shall now hand over to Tiny Maya. MR SANDI Just before Tiny Maya tells us the order, maybe there is no need to introduce to you, but I think it is important, this is Revd Finca from the Chairman of the Board of Council, here in this area. He is President at (indistinct) and he is one Reverend who at the time of (indistinct) fall, he was asked to take his place, so because he has been in leadership for quite some time and this makes us to feel good and relaxed so I would like to say in his own right, he is a fully fledged leader that is quite distinguished and he is here in this Commission rightfully, especially at this time so let us greet him. Thank you. MS MAYA Chairperson, Commissioner I present to you the names of the people who made some requests to come and make DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 an appearance before this Commission. Even today a lot of these people who are going to appear are the people who were ill-treated at the time of the conflict and at the time when most people were being killed. So, I am not going to mention the time when these things happened. So we have Zolile Gaza for attempted murder, Wele Rubushe for attempted murder, Nomasonto Kumalo for attempted murder, Vuyelwa Kumalo who died, Nomakhosazana Kumalo, who died, Mzwamadoda Sukwana for torture, Sakhile Macwashe for attempted murder, Griffiths Fivana for attempted murder, Nomfundo Daisy Dodo on behalf of Mteteleli Dodo, attempted murder, Mxolisi Tototo Mbewana for attempted murder, Funeka Voyiya for attempted murder, Rogers Gqeme for attempted murder, Nothemba Marjorie on behalf of Mzwanele Fazzie who was murdered in 1982 and Sicelo Fazzie who was murdered in 1984. We have got Nomonde Cynthia Mahlanza on behalf of Mkhululi Mahlanza who was murdered. We have got Mzwakhe Mvubu for attempted murder, Michael Makeke for attempted murder, Maki Ntshunde for severe ill-treatment, Noretse Joyce Wili on behalf of Goodboy Wili, who was murdered. Elizabeth Kopi on behalf of Ntobeko Kopi who was murdered. Nomathemba Grey, for Fundusile Grey who was murdered. Pinana Mazaka for Mike Mazaka who was murdered. That is the lot, Chairperson, I thank you. REVD FINCA We thank Ms Maya. For the sake of those who are doing some recording I would like to make you aware that we have an additional witness, Zogogalela Christopher Majuba as additional victims. Usually when we are going to talk about people who are DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 5 no more and who died during this conflict, we normally remember them in the way that is appropriate by standing up and then we mention their names. Could you all rise? This is in memory of Vuyelwa Kumalo, Nomakhosazana Kumalo. We remember Mzwanele Fazzie, Sicelo Fazzie. We remember Mkhululi Maklanza. Goodboy Wili, Ntobeko Kopi, Fundusile Grey. We remember Mike Mazaka. Make them rest in peace, Oh Lord and give them eternal life, thank you. Is Zolile Gaza in? No, not yet? We are now going to ask Wele Rubushe to ascend the stage together with Mzwamadoda Sukwana. REVD XUNDU Wele, can you please rise. WELE RUBUSHE (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you. Mzwamadoda? MZWAMADODA DE VILLIERS SUKWANA (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Thank you very much, they are sworn in. REVD FINCA We welcome you in this Commission. We are going to hand over to Mr Sandi, who is going to question you on behalf of the Commission. We are going to start with Mr Rubushe. MR SANDI Thank you very much, Chairperson. Let me greet you Mr Rubushe, this morning. How are you? W RUBUSHE I am fine. MR SANDI Let me confirm first, your names, your full names, you are Wele Rubushe, is that so? W RUBUSHE Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI You reside here at Duncan Village, is that so? W RUBUSHE Yes, that's correct. MR SANDI Today by being here in front of the Commission, you are going to tell about something that happened to you DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 W RUBUSHE in August 1985 when it was early int he morning. You were shot, is that so? W RUBUSHE Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI I am going to hand over to you so that you can tell us in details how did this happened. What happened on that particular day. W RUBUSHE In 1985, it was early in the morning, I remember it was on a Tuesday, I was coming from the toilet. When I was nearer to the house, I saw a hippo, a casper which was at a distance. When I was still looking at this hippo one White man alighted from the police casper. While I was still looking at this, I fell. I felt a bullet, when I tried to stand up, I couldn't. I lost my consciousness. I regained my consciousness at the hospital, I think it was at (indistinct) day. After that I remained in hospital, I think I was in the hospital for three months. When I was discharged from the hospital I was taking a treatment until 1986. At least the pain was no longer as serious but at some stage I could still feel the pain - though I can't remember the years. But even here, last year I was admitted again in the hospital. It was something like two weeks, it was concerning my operations. MR SANDI Do you still remember the name of the Doctor who was examining you in hospital? W RUBUSHE That Doctor, I can't remember, I think it is something like Barnard, I'm not sure. MR SANDI But Mr Rubushe, you said you went to Lloyd police station to place a claim concerning a shooting. Can you DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 7 W RUBUSHE tell us Mr Rubushe, what happened at Lloyd police station? W RUBUSHE When I went there, they asked me a question who shot me, I said it is soldiers. They asked me the name of the soldier, I told them that I don't know the name of the soldier. They said they won't take the case because I don't know the name of the person. MR SANDI If I hear you clearly, you said you were not - just because of the fact that you did not know the name of the soldier who shot you, no attention was paid to you claim? Was there anything that, maybe you, did you ever approach any lawyer? W RUBUSHE No, I didn't. MR SANDI Were there any people who saw you when you were shot, when you were being shot? W RUBUSHE Yes, I can say because there are people who took me and one of my neighbours once told me the story. MR SANDI What did he say? W RUBUSHE He said he saw me while I was being shot by the soldiers. MR SANDI At the police station, do you still remember the name of the police that you were going to who said he is not going to attend to this case of yours, because you don't know the name of the soldier? W RUBUSHE No, I don't remember. MR SANDI Did you ever go to the police station again or maybe you didn't go there after that? W RUBUSHE Yes, I tried to go to Fleet Street, I tried to institute another claim again. Even there, I was not attended to, just because I didn't know the name of the person who shot me. MR SANDI Did you go to Fifth Street police station on the DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 8 W RUBUSHE very same day? W RUBUSHE No, I didn't, I think after a few weeks I went there. MR SANDI Whom did you approach at Fleet Street police station? W RUBUSHE It was a White man. MR SANDI What did he say as a response? W RUBUSHE He also asked the very same question that who shot me. MR SANDI By the time you were there, were there any other people who used to go to the police station concerning the very same problems just because they don't know the name of the police and they were not attended to? W RUBUSHE I don't know, I won't say, but to me that's what I was told. MR SANDI Mr Rubushe, can you go on with your evidence? Is there anything else that you would like to say, anything else that you would like to add? W RUBUSHE The other thing that I would like to add is this, although I was shot by this person whom that I don't even know, at least something must be done to try and find a reason for this to find this person who shot at me. MR SANDI As far as you know, what do you think that might be the reason, what do you think that might be the reason? W RUBUSHE No, I don't know anything. MR SANDI Are there any incidents that took place in that particular place where you were shot at, maybe a conflict between the soldiers and the residents? W RUBUSHE No, there was nothing in that place, nothing happened. MR SANDI In conclusion Mr Rubushe, what are your requests DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 9 W RUBUSHE in this Commission? W RUBUSHE The request that I have today is that I wish that the Commission should investigate the people who shot me at that day. MR SANDI Nothing else that you said in your statement Mr Rubushe? W RUBUSHE Can you repeat that again? MR SANDI Is that all, is that your only request Mr Rubushe the investigation about the person who shot you, is there anything else? W RUBUSHE Yes, there is another request that I had. MR SANDI: Can you tell us about that? W RUBUSHE I just discovered that my condition needs some, I must go and get some disability grant. MR SANDI When was that? Did you happen to get that grant? W RUBUSHE I think it was in 1993, 1994. MR SANDI Are you employed now, or what are you doing now? W RUBUSHE I'm not working. MR SANDI Is that all that you would like to say concerning your evidence just before I hand over? W RUBUSHE After I was granted this money I have children who are still at school and I am responsible for everything and I had to go again to ask for something else because my wife also, I had to get another one, because my wife also, must also take care of the children. MR SANDI Thank you very much, I'll hand over to the Chairperson, thank you. REVD FINCA Revd Xundu? REVD XUNDU While you got this accident, were you working? W RUBUSHE No, I was unemployed. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 10 W RUBUSHE REVD XUNDU How many children do you have? How many children do you have? W RUBUSHE I have six children. REVD XUNDU What standards are they doing? W RUBUSHE The first one is doing standard 7, the other two are doing standard 4. The other one is doing standard 7, the two is doing standard 4. And the other one is doing standard 2. REVD XUNDU Thank you Mr Chairperson. W RUBUSHE There is something else that I forgot to say but I think it is written in my statement. I have a problem concerning my operations. Sometimes, especially in Winter I suffer a lot they are very painful. I visit the day hospital regularly and then I get some tablets. Especially the one on my leg sometimes it is very painful, that is the reason why I was admitted at Frere Hospital. REVD FINCA Thank you very much Mr Rubushe. Me are going to go to Mr Sukwana now. MR SANDI I greet you Mzwamadoda de Villiers Sukwana. Those are your full names, is that so? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI Let me first confirm that you were born in 1969? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI You reside at C, Duncan Village, is that correct? M DE V SUKWANA Yes. MR SANDI What you are going to tell us about here today happened in August 1985 here in Duncan Village? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI As from 1969, if I'm counting from 1969, I notice that you were only 15 years old or 16, you were between 15 DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 11 M DE V SUKWANA and 16 years, is that correct? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, that is correct. MR SANDI Let me start by asking you this question. What are you doing now, are you attending school? M DE V SUKWANA No, I'm not a scholar. MR SANDI Are you working here in East London? M DE V SUKWANA I once worked in Gauteng. MR SANDI Let's start on the day of the 15th of August 1985 as you said in your statement. By the way you said on this particular day it was after the houses were burnt and some other places here in Duncan Village, is that so? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, that's correct. MR SANDI Can you tell us Mr Sukwana freely what happened on that particular day? M DE V SUKWANA Yes. On the 15th it was midnight, it was midnight, I heard someone kicking the door. It was White men who were in the company of Siphiwo Jamjam. When I tried to tell my mother that she must know that I'm being arrested, the Whites took me to the hippo. They said I must lie there because some of the comrades were already there. We left because these people had a list. MR SANDI You say here in this hippo there were some other people who were arrested? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, it is true. MR SANDI Were those people young people or maybe people who were at an age? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, there were older people and there were others who were of my age. MR SANDI You're saying the hippo was patrolling, they were looking for people? DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 12 M DE V SUKWANA M DE V SUKWANA Yes, they didn't get the people, they took us to the police station. When I was at the police station, they said I must take off my clothes and they electrocuted my private parts with electric shots and they hit my underneath my feet. After that they asked me about the organisations, political organisations that I was involved in. I told them that I was a member of ELYO. They locked me up in the cell and after that they took me to the courts and from the court we were taken to Westbank. When we arrived at Westbank, the police ordered us to take off our clothes. They were hitting us with batons. MR SANDI Let's go back a little bit Mr Sukwana. At the police station, do you still remember the policeman who were harassing you and torturing you and assaulting you? M DE V SUKWANA No, I can't remember, because they didn't have their name tags on. MR SANDI Let's talk about Westbank now. M DE V SUKWANA Do you mean Fort Glamorgan now? MR SANDI Yes, that's correct. What happened there? M DE V SUKWANA When we arrived there, they ordered us to take off our clothes. They were chasing us, assaulting us with batons. There was one other policeman by the name of Nkunzemnyama who said we must salute Botha. He was hitting us. If there is no sort of echo, he'll say that he's not counting that lash and then he'll start afresh hitting us again. MR SANDI How long did this assaults take place? M DE V SUKWANA Since we were there we were being assaulted every day. MR SANDI You said you stayed there for 3 months? DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 13 M DE V SUKWANA M DE V SUKWANA Yes, that's correct. MR SANDI Do you mean that every day in this three months, you were being assaulted and tortured? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, he used to wake us up early in the morning and drive us like sheep, hitting us with batons, even if you come back, the same thing would happen. MR SANDI This person, this Nkunzemnyama, do you mean this man's name was Nkunzemnyama? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, that's the name that they were using. I don't know his other name. MR SANDI Did you ever hear anything about this? M DE V SUKWANA Yes. MR SANDI What is it that they were saying about this Nkunzemnyama? M DE V SUKWANA I used to hear that he was mishandling, manhandling the people. MR SANDI Did you see Nkunzemnyama after that? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, I did after I was released from detention. MR SANDI Is he still around? M DE V SUKWANA No, I haven't seen him for a long time. MR SANDI Is that all concerning your evidence Mr Sukwana? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, that's all. MR SANDI Is there any wish that you have that you can tell this Commission about? Is there any request that you would like to make in this Commission today? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, I have a request that the Commission must try to investigate the White men who came to my house and I would like to do something about them. MR SANDI Do you have any aim, do you have any intention? Is there anything that you would like to do? DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 14 M DE V SUKWANA M DE V SUKWANA Yes, I would like to take them into my lawyers, because they broke my teeth. MR SANDI You say they broke your teeth. M DE V SUKWANA Yes, they hit me with the rifle while I was trying to call my mother. MR SANDI Are there any teeth that you lost during that time? How many of them? Mr Sukwana, let me as this question, are there any injuries that you sustained by being assaulted by the police? MR DE V SUKWANA Yes, they hit me on my ribs, even now I don't feel good, because sometimes it is painful. Some of - the other side of my ribs can be painful. MR SANDI Is there any treatment that you are getting from a Doctor, maybe from a hospital? M DE V SUKWANA No, I try to use some other kind of medicine from the herbs. MR SANDI Is it necessary to use those herbs if you are not well? Are you still using those herbs even now? M DE V SUKWANA No, I'm no longer using them. MR SANDI Do you mean that those traditional treatment helped you? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, it did. MR SANDI Is that all that you would like to say Mr Silwana? M DE V SUKWANA Yes. MR SANDI Thank you very much Mr Silwana. Thank you Chairperson. REVD FINCA Revd Xundu. REVD XUNDU Were you still at school when you were arrested? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, I was still at school. REVD XUNDU What standard were you doing? DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 15 M DE V SUKWANA M DE V SUKWANA I was doing standard 5. REVD XUNDU Did you ever go back to school after that? M DE V SUKWANA No, I didn't. REVD XUNDU What was the reason for that? What is the reason for you not to go back to school again? M DE V SUKWANA There was no specific reason, I just decided not to go back. REVD XUNDU Would you like to go on with your education since education will also help you in life to go on with your life? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, I would like to go on. REVD XUNDU With what? M DE V SUKWANA With my education. REVD XUNDU What kind of education is that? M DE V SUKWANA To go back to school. REVD XUNDU To start doing standard 6? M DE V SUKWANA Yes. REVD XUNDU Are you working now? M DE V SUKWANA No, I'm not working, I was working in Gauteng, I was working at a garage. After that, I didn't go back to work. REVD XUNDU You didn't get any grant? M DE V SUKWANA No. REVD XUNDU Did you try to make any application? M DE V SUKWANA No. REVD XUNDU Thank you. REVD FINCA Ntsikelelo Sandi. MR SANDI Mr Silwana, are there any other people that you know that you were together at Fort Glamorgan? M DE V SUKWANA Yes, there are. One of them is Vusumzi Mzuvukile Mbengo who was here yesterday and Mongia Zimanxa. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 16 M DE V SUKWANA There is a lot of them, I won't be able to quote, to tell you all of them. MR SANDI Thank you. REVD FINCA Thank you Mr Rubushe and Mr Silwana. We thank you for this testimony trying to reveal to us things that happened during the Duncan Village massacre. But I would like to make a request to the people at large. There is this name Nkunzemnyama, but we are not able to use this name, because it is not the real name of a person. If ever there is somebody else here at Duncan Village who has some knowledge of this Nkunzemnyama's real name, we would like to get that - there's one there who's - who knows him. Can you please see us during the break because the aim of this Commission is to go to those people who did these things. Reconciliation is not going to be - we are not going to have reconciliation not until we meet those people and for them to come forward and they must also be here with the victims also. So this Nkunzemnyama's name is, we hear this Nkunzemnyama's name for the forth time. We would like to know his real name to get his true identity so that we can go to him. Thank you very much, you can go back to your places.