hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1996-09-23 DUNCAN VILLAGE 1 MTSWEMBEYI ZENZISI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55076&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/duncan/zenzisi.htm THE COMMISSION COMMENCES WITH PRAYERS REVD FINCA: We thank the Minister for his opening prayer in this Duncan Village hearing. We thank everybody here present today who have come to participate as to put before this Commission all the things that occurred to them. We would like to introduce this panel here before you. On my extreme right we have Revd Xundu, who is a Minister in Port Elizabeth, who is the member of the Commission as a member of the Committee of the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee. Here next to me is Miss Yolisa Judith Maya, who is a lawyer by profession from Umtata and she is a member of the Human Rights Violation Committee. On my left is Judy Crichton, who has been working for the (indistinct) and who is also a member of the Human Rights Violation Committee and next to her is Mr Sandi. The full name is Ntsikelelo and he comes from Grahamstown. She is also a member of the Human Rights Violation Committee. We thank all of you who are here this morning that you are here in this hall to listen with us to all the stories and all that happened to the people in 1985 as presented by the witnesses who are going to come before this Commission. Tiny Maya is going to announce and tell us what is happening this morning and tell us the order of the day. MS MAYA We thank you. I present to you a list of the EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 2 people who made before this Commission some requests and I am going to read this list according to the way they are going to appear before this Commission, unless there will be some changes. Firstly we've got Mtswembeyi Zenzisi to represent Mphangeli Matshekethe, murdered in 1985. There is Jane Mxoli to represent Nothozayo Suthu, murdered in 1985. Nonkululeko Ngcaka, representing Thembekile Ngcaka, murdered in 1985. Xoliswa Makhuluphala and Thembisa Tifi is going to testify attempted murder in 1985. Phumla Wokona for attempted murder in 1985. Mbuyiselo Monster Nqokotho for attempted murder in 1985. Nontuthuzelo Mvandaba for attempted murder in 1985. Mqondeni Wilmont Bottoman for severe treatment in 1985. Mninawa Richard Gomba for attempted murder in 1985. Nombulelo Elizabeth Thole for Zandisile Thole was murder in 1985. Nongoku Zwelifile, Bonakele Bongani Zwelifile who was murdered in 1985. Vusumzi Mzuvukile Mbengo on attempted murder in 1985. Eunice Nontuthuzelo Bewula, Thembile Bewula who was murdered in 1985. Zola Wellington Ndarana, for attempted murder in 1985. Mpumelelo Sisulu for attempted murder in 1985. Wilson Vandoyi for attempted murder in 1985. Mirriam Mandaba Mzamo for attempted murder in 1986. Thabang Maretloane who was tortured in 1985. Zuko Galela, who was tortured in 1985. Buyisile Ryan Mapisa, who was tortured in 1975 to 1986. I thank you, Chairperson. REVD FINCA We thank Ms Maya. We usually, when there are people that we are going to refer to who have died, we normally give some honour to those people before we begin with the hearing. EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 3 Could you all rise and give our honour and remembrance to those who died. We remember Mphangeli Matshekethe. We remember Nothozayo Suthu. This is in remembrance of Thembekile Ngcaka. We remember Zandisile Thole. We remember Bonakele Bongani Zwelifile. We remember Thembile Bewula. We remember Bubble Mzamo - let them rest in peace oh Lord and give them an everlasting life. We are going to come to call our first victim by the name of Mtswembeyi Zenzisi, Jane Mxoli, Nonkululeko Ngcaka. We are going to listen to them at the same time. We welcome you, the three of you. Ladies, you have come before this Commission to give evidence about the death of your relatives, three of your relatives during some problem here in Duncan Village, 1985. We think that you have come before this Commission to give this evidence so that the whole world should know about them and also this Commission to give a hearing to your request in connection with your people. We are now going to hand over to Revd Xundu who is going to lead you into the oath after which Ntsikelelo Sandi is going to question you on behalf of this Commission - thank you. REVD XUNDU Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I would now like Mtswembeyi Zenzisi to rise. MTSWEMBEYI ZENZISI (sworn states) INTERPRETER Interpretation services cannot continue because we cannot hear the Speaker. Interpretation services cannot continue because we cannot hear the Speaker. REVD XUNDU Could you rise, Jane Mxoli? JANE MXOLI (sworn states) REVD XUNDU Could you rise, Nonkululeko Ngcaka? NONKULULEKO NGCAKA (sworn states) DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 4 M ZENZISI REVD XUNDU Thank you - I've sworn them in Mr Chairperson. REVD FINCA Over to you Ntsikelelo Sandi. MR SANDI Thank you, Chairperson. Let me greet you Ms Zenzisi. How are you Ms Zenzisi today? MS ZENZISI No, I'm fine. How are you? MR SANDI I'm also fine, thank you since we last saw each other yesterday, now could I ask you to come closer to the microphone as you speak so that you can be clearly heard. Even this behind me, the interpreters should be in a position to hear you as you explain and tell us about your painful story. Let's first start off by referring to your statement which we have here in front of us. Your husband, on the 14th of August was shot and died - is that the case? MS ZENZISI Yes, it is like that. MR SANDI Just before you explain to us about this incident, could you briefly explain and tell us about your husband? What work was he doing at the time? Could you again repeat? Your husband - what kind of a person was he? Was he a worker or was he unemployed? What was he doing at the time he was shot? MS ZENZISI He was working at Kasif and in 1984 this Company closed and then they were retrenched and he was unemployed. MR SANDI So at the time he was shot, was he unemployed? MS ZENZISI Yes. MR SANDI Right, let's move on and get into the main point. MS ZENZISI It was on a Tuesday morning and we woke up. My husband went to the shop to go and buy cooldrink. As I was sitting there I decided to go outside because I could hear some gunfire and I saw some people and I joined them. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 5 M ZENZISI As I was standing there, a young child came to me and said -and told me that my husband had been shot. He was one of the people that had been shot and when I asked her for the second time, the people stopped me and whilst I was standing there, still considering what I had just heard from the child, I decided to go to one direction. As I was walking there where the people were laying, I met my brother and he asked me where I was getting to and I told him where I was getting to. And he asked me to go back. I was interested to go and see what was happening there, where there were people, so I stood there with my brother insisting that I should go back because he insisted that he was not very injured - seriously injured. And I decided to go back. Then I saw a young boy who told me that all the people that had been shot, had died. And he said my husband had been hit on the head and I was unhappy. MR SANDI You can take your time Ms Zenzisi, we can wait for you whilst you are trying to compose yourself. Ms Zenzisi, are you now ready to continue? I would like to ask, by the way, are there any incidents that had occurred at the time, what was the situation here in Duncan Village during this period of your husband's death? MS ZENZISI It was very bad at the time in 1985. Even those who survived cannot tell how they managed. MR SANDI Are there perhaps any certain incidents that you still recall which happened at that time? MS ZENZISI What happened is, there was a problem with the school children. They had their grievances and their needs and even the community had a problem with the Councillors. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 6 M ZENZISI MR SANDI Were there policemen and some South African Defence Force members at the time? MS ZENZISI Yes, they used to be there all the time and they used to shoot all the time. MR SANDI Could we go back a little and talk about the shooting of your husband and talk about the funeral. How was the funeral? Were there any incidents on the day of the funeral which were of disturbance to the proceedings of the funeral? MS ZENZISI At the time of the funeral nothing actually happened. We just buried my husband, though there were some policemen and some soldiers around. MR SANDI Now, you said you had children, two of them? MS ZENZISI At the time he died, I had one child, but I was pregnant, three months pregnant with our second child. MR SANDI Where are those children now? MS ZENZISI The children are at my home in Mooiplaas. MR SANDI But you live here in Duncan Village? MS ZENZISI Yes, I live here because I'm working here. MR SANDI Do these children go to school? MS ZENZISI Yes, they do. MR SANDI Are there any request or anything you would like this Commission to do for you? MS ZENZISI Yes, I have some requests to forward to this Commission. MR SANDI Could you explain and tell us what those requests are? MS ZENZISI My requests are that I need some assistance to educate my children, that is the main request I have. MR SANDI Is your explanation about your incident, have you told us everything about the incident? DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 7 M ZENZISI MS ZENZISI Yes. MR SANDI Thank you for your contribution. I shall now hand you over to the Chairperson who may give me permission to go on to Ms Mxoli. REVD FINCA Are there any questions? Over to you, Tiny Maya. MS MAYA Thank you Chairperson. Ms Zenzisi, I would like to ask you some questions. Did you know who shot your husband? MS ZENZISI No. MS MAYA Was there any investigation that was done in connection with his death? MS ZENZISI No, nothing was done. MS MAYA Did you perhaps go to any police station to lay a charge? MS ZENZISI No, I didn't. MS MAYA Did you institute any claim to the lawyers? MS ZENZISI No, I didn't. MS MAYA Thank you. How old are your children? MS ZENZISI The first is 14 years old, the second one is 10 years old. MS MAYA In what standards are they? MS ZENZISI The first is in standard 4, the second one is in standard 2. MS MAYA Thank you, Ms Zenzisi. REVD FINCA Ms Zenzisi, I would like to ask you another short question. Why was your husband shot? Do you perhaps have any reason or any knowledge? MS ZENZISI I really don't know because I last saw him when he was going to a shop to buy cooldrink, and then the next thing I heard that he had been shot dead. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 8 M ZENZISI REVD FINCA Was he perhaps a political activist at that time? MS ZENZISI I wouldn't know whether he was an activist at the time, but on this particular day he had just gone out to buy cooldrink. But I wouldn't tell anything about his activities. REVD FINCA Over to you Ntsikelelo Sandi. MR SANDI Mr Zenzisi, do you perhaps - can you tell us that at the time were people just shot by the police and the soldiers who was walking in the streets? MS ZENZISI No, this was not a normal occurrence. This had just started. It started on a particular Sunday and there was just wild shooting, even if people had just gone out to the toilet, they would be shot. REVD FINCA Thank you. We thank you Ms Zenzisi, Mr Sandi we are now going to ask Ms Mxoli. I would like to greet you Ms Mxoli at this morning. Are you in the (indistinct). Firstly, I would like to make sure in short, that all this I've got here is right. You are residing in Duncan Village in East London, is that so? MS MXOLI Yes. MR SANDI You came here today concerning your son, Nothozayo Suthu who was shot, is that so? MS MXOLI Yes. MR SANDI I would like you to tell us your story in full what happened to your son. I give this opportunity to you, Ms Mxoli. MS MXOLI It was on Tuesday about ten o'clock. I was staying in Ntumeni and he was staying with my brother. Whilst we were still sitting at home I was still looking at my other son, because he was restless - he used to go out DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 9 J MXOLI all the time and Themba came - he told me that my son was shot and he was in hospital. While I was still sitting there, he was in hospital - I went with my children there. MR SANDI Please take your time, Ms Suthu, the Commission will wait for you. MS MXOLI We went there with my children and while we were there, they told us he was dead. We came back and when we approached Ntsolo, we met a car and this car took us and there were people who had thrown stones to this car. (tape ends) MR SANDI (tape continues) .... who were in the soldiers' car? MS MXOLI Yes. MR SANDI Please continue, Ms Suthu. MS MXOLI We came home and on Wednesday - and on Thursday my other son came from Johannesburg and on Thursday morning three boys came towards my house and they were passing, and they were running, they were followed by soldiers. And the soldiers came to my house and asked us who are these people and my son told them that I don't know who are they. And the soldiers asked why don't you know them. INTERPRETER The Speaker's microphone is not on. MS MXOLI My son told them Kinq told them to shoot me because they shot our son, but they didn't respond, they just went on and they left us. MR SANDI All this was happening before the funeral? MS MXOLI Can you please repeat it? MR SANDI All this was happening before the funeral? MS MXOLI Yes, the soldiers came and they chased these three boys before the funeral. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 10 J MXOLI MR SANDI Were there any other activities which were happening in the township where your son was shot? MS MXOLI Yes, there were many activities happening. It was difficult to go out and fetch water, because they were shooting teargas towards us. My son was sick, he had a chest problem, he was always hospitalised and that soldiers used to shoot us with teargas on our way to hospital. MR SANDI Were there any other things which were done by soldiers when they met people? MS MXOLI Yes, the soldiers did many things at those times. While you were on your way you were always praying because you didn't know what was going to happen to you. MR SANDI In other words, Ms Suthu, Ms Mxoli, together with Ms Zenzisi who talked before you, was it a miracle that other people were not shot during that time? MS MXOLI I wouldn't say because there are casualties which happened at that time. The soldiers caused many problems and many people were injured at that time. MR SANDI Did you go to any lawyers, Ms Mxoli concerning this matter? MS MXOLI Can you please repeat? MR SANDI Did you go to any lawyers for advice? MS MXOLI No. MR SANDI Were there any people who were arrested because of this shooting? MS MXOLI No. MR SANDI Can you please tell us Ms Mxoli, how this shooting - what this shooting did to you? MS MXOLI It injured me very much. I am still in pain - even now because I don't know what was the reason for my son's death. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 11 J MXOLI MR SANDI Can you proceed now Ms Mxoli? Are you ready to proceed? You said your son has a child, Pindiwe? Where is she? MS MXOLI She is by my daughter here in Ntanzani and my daughter has got a baby now. MR SANDI Can you please tell us Ms Mxoli, what is your request in front of this Commission? MS MXOLI My request is that I need assistance. I need to be helped with this child because I am unable to support this child at this present moment. MR SANDI Is that all that you want to say Ms Mxoli? MS MXOLI Yes, there is nothing more. MR SANDI Thank you, Ms Mxoli. I would give this opportunity to this Chairman, thank you. REVD FINCA June Crichton? MS CRICHTON She will need to put earphones on, I think. REVD FINCA There is some technical problem so we are going to resume later. We are going to adjourn whilst the technicians are attending to the problem - thank you. We are now going to hand over to June Crichton. MS CRICHTON Can you hear me Ms Mxoli? Can you hear me? Good. I just want to clarify something. I want to ask you about a statement you made when you said that you went to the hospital and the child that was with you was affected by the teargas that was constantly being thrown, is that the same child Nothozayo or is it another child? MS MXOLI Which one, I can't - I don't understand your question. No, it is not, this was a child, this was a child who belonged to Kinq, not mine. MS CHRICHTON Thank you. REVD FINCA Over to you, Revd Xundu. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 12 J MXOLI REVD XUNDU I would like to know at the time of your son's death, was he working? MS MXOLI No, he had just been discharged from hospital because he was ill and he was on his way to Mtansani. REVD XUNDU Did he have any family? MS MXOLI Yes, he had two children which he had got from another lady and this other one does not stay with me. REVD XUNDU Where do this children live? MS MXOLI One stays with me. REVD XUNDU Who is Fundiswa? MS MXOLI Yes, I was paying for his education. REVD XUNDU Do you always get medical examination and treatment? MS MXOLI Yes, I do. MR SANDI We are now going to ask Ms Ngcaka to come forward. Let me thank you Ms Ngcaka for your presence here today to explain to us what happened to your son. By the way what was your son's name? MS NGCAKA His name was Thembekile Ngcaka. MR SANDI Who shot him? MS NGCAKA I was in King William's Town and Thembekile was here in Duncan Village so my father came to inform me that my son had been shot and he was in hospital. I was shocked and I thought he was dead. I then immediately went to hospital and I saw my son admitted in hospital. And he had been shot on his tummy and I used to visit him in hospital and until he was discharged, one of the nursing sisters said they did not see anything in his tummy so he had an operation from the diaphragm down to the abdomen. So he was discharged and I took him to King William's Town. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 13 N NGCAKA And whilst we were there he couldn't eat properly and I didn't know what was wrong with him and I had forgotten that he had been shot. When it is hot, he used to feel very sick and we didn't have money to send him to the Doctor, so one other day he went with my mother and my mother came with the report that he had taken ill. And he would feel thirsty and I had the impression that he healed completely, but I wasn't satisfied with his state of health. But I did not bother myself much about taking him to Doctors, so he fell ill until I was perturbed and I decided to take him to a Doctor who diagnosed that his tummy was swollen so I took him to the Grey Hospital in King William's Town and I was told that he had been referred to Frere Hospital. I could not make a follow up. MR SANDI I noticed that your child at the time you are shot was very young. How old was he at the time? MS NGCAKA He was 8 years old at that time. MR SANDI Did you perhaps go to any lawyers? MS NGCAKA No, no, no one went to any lawyer. MR SANDI You did not go to any lawyer to seek advice? MS NGCAKA No, we didn't. MR SANDI Are there any people who were eye witnesses at the time this child was shot? MS NGCAKA Yes, there were. MR SANDI What did they say? MS NGCAKA My brother was there, because I am talking about hearsay. MR SANDI Could you tell us what your brother said to you? He said your brother was playing with other children at Douglas Smith highway. DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 14 N NGCAKA MS NGCAKA Yes, my brother said all the children were playing behind our home and they heard some gunshots, because ultimately all of them were shot, though he tried to run away and he was shot on the tummy and he fell and my brother picked him up and took him to hospital. MR SANDI In your statement you said these children was shot by the soldiers? MS NGCAKA Yes, but my brother said my son was shot by the police. MR SANDI So how were you affected by the death of your child who was very young at the time? MS NGCAKA Since 1986, I have not been enjoying good health. MR SANDI How is your health at this present moment? MS NGCAKA I had a heart condition. My husband too is suffering from high blood pressure because this really affected us. MR SANDI In your statement you have made mention of you have requests to this Commission that you need to know who actually shot your child together with his playmates, is it like that? You want to know who shot your child? MS NGCAKA Yes, I do want to know. MR SANDI Do you perhaps have any other requests to this Commission? MS NGCAKA No, I cannot answer that question. MR SANDI In other words do you have any other thing to say in addition to what is in your statement? MS NGCAKA What I would like to say is that I was really hurt by the death of my child. Says that I wish that he had died at the time they shot him. I was really hurt that he still lived and he suffered the way he suffered and he could DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 15 N NGCAKA not eat properly and had to undergo an operation where they discovered some pellets in his stomach and this really hurt me. MR SANDI I now will hand over to the Chairperson. If you still have any additional information you are welcome to say it once more. Over to you, Chairperson. REVD FINCA Any question? There are no other questions. I wish to thank the three of you Ms Zenzisi, Ms Mxoli and Ms Ngcaka. I thank you for giving a full picture to this Commission of this painful incident and the manner in which your relatives were killed and according to your statements you say they were killed by soldiers and the police. We thank you for giving us this full picture because it is the aim of this Commission that we should call before this Commission the head of the police as well as the heads of the soldiers to give their side of the story so if we have incidents of this nature, we are going to present them before them and to find out from them what actually happened. We thank you for the contribution that your relatives have made and also the struggle that the people of Duncan Village participated in which has made Duncan Village to be well known in the whole of the Republic of South Africa because of its contribution to the struggle, fighting of the human rights. We also listened to your requests as presented before this Commission with the hope that this Commission is going to look into them. I would also like to explain that this Commission at this - at the point it will have to give its report to the President of this country and it will be the President and his Cabinet that will make the decision as DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE 16 what to be done. I am certain that the death of your relatives and then there is no compensation thereafter, will not be acceptable in the whole of South Africa. We therefore hope that, according to the conditions and the proposals of this Commission there will be perhaps something that will be done here in Duncan Village which will serve as a commemoration to the people of Duncan Village on behalf of those who gave their lives during the struggle. So it is important that you should give your request to this Commission and the Commission will forward them to the President. We thank all of you for coming forward to this Commission and all you have said to us will be taken note of and will be forwarded to the President. You can now go back to your seats, thank you.