hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-06-18 GEORGE 1 CT/05702 SIPHO KROMA SIPHO KROMA TORTURED AND BEATEN BY, POLICE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55101&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/george/ct05702.htm MS BURTON Good morning Mr Kroma. MR KROMA MS BURTON Are you willing to swear the oath - thank you. SIPHO KROMA Duly sworn states MS BURTON Thank you very much, Dr Ramashala will be facilitating your testimony. DR RAMASHALA Good morning Mr Kroma. MR KROMA DR RAMASHALA Chairperson I would like to just observe that Mr Kroma is currently the Mayor in Oudtshoorn. There - this case is really about a torture that occurred in Uitenhage in the Eastern Cape, but it has been established that the perpetrators that are named were actually based in Oudtshoorn. I will ask Mr Kroma to relate his story in his own words in as detailed a way as possible, starting from the beginning. Not only talking about the torture itself, but also giving contacts with respects to your political organisations your activities, and whatever else was happening in the community, thank you. MR KROMA I was part of the Youth Structure in [indistinct] the [indistinct] organisation. In fact in 1986 I was secretary of the organisation. The previous year I was a student in Thobaletu High School in Fort Beaufort. I was not able to - to finish schooling precisely because of my political involvement, involved in the SRC and being organiser of COSAS I had to run away from Ciskei, in fact I had two choices, to stay and continue there and risk - loosing my life there. Maybe that is one of the things that made them to deal with me when they got me was the fact that the police in Oudtshoorn were never able to catch me, in all the race that were there, I was only detained in Uitenhage and I was detained in Johannesburg. And so they drove with us, on the way out of the township Kwanobuhle township, they stopped again. They pulled me out of the boot and the very same show continued - they kicked me, jumping on top of me. Again I went back to my place - the boot and we drove to Church Street, police station is in Church Street in Uitenhage. When we got there, we were made to sit in front of one of the doors there. And they first took Michael Lucas in, well there was very little that we could hear what was happening inside, the only thing that we could hear was Michael screaming, they dealt with him for about two hours. I was sitting on the other side of the door and [indistinct] on the other side. When I entered the room, still handcuffed they made me to sit - straightened my legs and they brought the SACP flag and they used the flag to tie my legs. My hands were handcuffed at the back. So they took off the handcuffs and handcuffed me from the front now. They produced a khaki T-shirt - no a khaki shirt, not a T-shirt a khaki shirt with black, green and gold lapels on top. And they said to me that they are going to deal with me with my own belonging, obviously we had the ANC lapels and the SACP flag here. And they brought up the electric - electric wiring, all ten of my fingers were wired with this thing, the live wire the plastic is of, the one that is covering the wire. And the other one moved right around - around my body. Sergeant Mnyamana task then was to ask me questions, and he - as I was sitting - three of them were sitting on my legs - Piet Gouws is a very big man, he was playing rugby for SWD in the front row, very strong man. He was sitting on my lap, the Coloured chap that I am talking about his task was to beat me up and he - he made sure that he was hurting me. When they finished with this case of Michael - you should understand I was secretary of the youth, the whole township was in turmoil. I was suppose to know of each and every move that is happening in the township as secretary. Each and everything that happened in the past years or so, I was asked to give account. The worst part of it was the fact that I was also involved in the formation of youth structures in George, in Mossel Bay, in Knysna where we helped with the formation of youth structures, that information was with the hand - heads of the police. They continued in that fashion as I was screaming, there is a - there is a freedom song that we usually sang that says: We are going to destroy your body - the comrades are crying. Mngoma was singing that song for me and say that you are crying right now, he was singing the very same song. They dealt with me for about two hours and so they left me and then they came to Mxolise. Then it was the last time that I saw Michael, when I was released from detention and he was charged and ultimately hanged, that was the last time I saw him. Gouws because he was tough and strong, was there to keep me down and Kurt Bouman participated in seeing who was able to kick me harder than the other one - that is my story. DR RAMASHALA MR KROMA Well what this guy would usually do is to grab at my penis, and my testicles at certain events, and punch me in my private parts and also kick me in my private parts. You see it was - it was difficult for me to cover, because the one would take my hands as I was handcuffed and then he had all the time and space in the world to deal. I was worried because for a couple of months I was non-functional. I thought that I had lost my manhood. DR RAMASHALA After they dismissed you, did anything else happen, I mean did they just discharge you - release you and that was it. MR KROMA Nothing happened after that except for the fact that during the time when Michael Lucas was - was in court in the Supreme Court in Cape Town, they summoned us to come and give evidence. But precisely because they understood that we - already that time, had got some legal advice to the effect that we were going to be able to go against what is written on the statement, they decided not to call us to give any evidence in any event. But they were [indistinct] and we went to a holiday in Cape Town for a week and came back. Because was never did anything, we were suppose to have gone to testify, but nothing happened. DR RAMASHALA Now at some point during your detention, they made a statement that Michael Lucas had himself made a statement that he killed Mr Blouw, was that in fact true, was he actually forced into making this statement or that was a ploy. MR KROMA He was beaten up, he was electrocuted like I was, and I am tempted to say that I doubt to the fact that Michael would have said anything to that [indistinct] without anything. Because what happened there, you were not first asked a question, they let you taste the medicine, so that when they ask you a question you already understand what is going to follow you see and that is - he did that statement under that interrogation. DR RAMASHALA And the last question, I know that you came in part to the Commission to ensure that your story is documented, is there anything else that you would like to have the Commission do. MR KROMA You see if you have asked me that question a few years ago, I would have asked the Commission to give me just about 30 minutes with each and every of those guys, just 30 minutes, that would be ample enough for me, I would have dealt with them. But maybe now with - maybe also the question of political maturity saying to me that would not be the obvious answer to the whole matter. But I happen to understand that you see with my case, this also happened when I was detained in Johannesburg, that there were people who were behind getting me in there. I know that Mngoma, Kurt Bouman, and the others, they were only stupid, there were nothing that they knew, they were very-very less effective, in fact people who have been in detention, who have been interrogated they will tell you that they are very glad when they are interrogated by Mngoma, because he was so stupid, there is nothing that he can be able to get out of you. What was being done, there were people who were using them and my problem is that those people who have been responsible for this, are now sitting in very high positions and we are pointing fingers to Mngoma and the rest of them and I think that is time that we can be able to get behind the whole truth and get those people. Because to me they are the people who are suppose to come in front of the Truth Commission as I am saying to you that there is nothing that Mngoma himself and [indistinct] and the others did, they were just being given instructions that this - this is what you are suppose to be doing. I think we need to get at the bottom of the whole thing. DR RAMASHALA Thank you very much Mr Kroma, Mr Chairman may I yield to my colleagues. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, any further questions - Russell Ally. DR ALLY Mr Kroma when they - during the period of interrogation did they actually force you to make statements and to sign statements. MR KROMA Yes they did - they did force me to make a statement, that was the first part of the interrogation. The statement, I am not sure what was in the statement, but it went to the effect that Michael said to us he confessed to us that he was responsible in the shooting of Blouw, which was not true you see. DR ALLY So they actually wrote the statement and then made you sign the statement. MR KROMA Yes, the only thing that I did was to sign the statement, they wrote the statement. DR ALLY And that was after the - the period of torture. MR KROMA So the obvious choice is to sign the statement and then maybe try other means outside that of moving [indistinct] on the fact of that statement. DR ALLY And the main thing in the statement was to get you to say that Michael had told you that he had killed this policeman - that was what they were really interested in. MR KROMA That was what they were interested in. DR ALLY Sorry this person who was killed, who was he? MR KROMA DR ALLY So was he a political motivation for this?MR KROMA: DR ALLY And did you have to have any medical treatment after your period of - when you came out. MR KROMA DR ALLY And since that period has that torturing left any - any long term effects do you think. MR KROMA DR ALLY I am sure that as Mayor your constituency must be very please to know that you hear very well - thanks. CHAIRPERSON Mary Burton. MS BURTON Thank you Mr Kroma for your very comprehensive testimony. I think it has added to our understanding of the way things were not only in Oudtshoorn but in the area all around in that period. The people whom you have names will be given an opportunity to tell us anything they may want to tell us and particularly in the case of your experience in Kwanobuhle our investigators will work together with our - their fellow investigators for the Truth Commission in the Eastern Cape to do what you have asked to try and peruse more than simply the people who - who were involved, because our - one of our major aims is precisely to try and find out what the truth is in regard to that situation. I wanted also to ask you - you probably have answered already to Dr Ally but the next person we will be hearing from is the mother of Michael Lucas, and so before we go onto that, I just wondered if there was any more light you could shed on that whole episode. MR KROMA Well there is - there is not much that I can reveal you know with the case of Michael Lucas, but I think to me you see I - we left Oudtshoorn together with Michael for Uitenhage, precisely because of running away from being detained. And we landed in Uitenhage where we were caught together and I was present when Michael was caught. And I was further made to make a statement that was implicating Michael in the - in the whole thing. Michael was tried and sentenced and hanged, you see I feel as if I also was part of the whole thing you know at the end. So to me because I was - I was following that case very close - precisely because of my closeness with Michael firstly and also with his - with his final being captured. Then also if one looks at the fact of the case if you go and [indistinct] it, there was very little that made them to find Michael guilty. In fact what made them to find Michael guilty was the fact that the age that he mentioned was not the correct age, they went to test his teeth and find out that the teeth - his teeth were not of some - somebody who is the very same age as he is. MS BURTON Thank you, you also said that Ms Madikane is your mother - did you mean she really is your mother or in the broader sense. MR KROMA MS BURTON She is your aunt, but she is your mother - yes and the Mxolise whom you referred to, is that her son. MR KROMA Yes. MS BURTON CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Mayor, we - well first of all I mean we - we are thrilled I mean that the change that has happened enables people like yourself with your abilities and your experience now to be at the head of the community. But what I wanted to indicate to you and to the general public is that the Commission has called on various organisations including political parties to make submissions to the Commission and as a consequence most of the major parties are going to be making those submissions in which they will be seeking to point out what their policies were - what their objectives were and what methods they used to achieve those objectives. Whereas the people who gave the orders might then have - as it were got away with it. But we are intending to find out the truth and part of that truth is perhaps a very important part is who gave the instructions and Dr Ramashala was pointing to the fact that we have been asked to see whether there is a pattern that can be see - a pattern of repression, of torture whatever. And the Act requires that we should find out whether there were deliberate policy positions with regard to repression and so on. And so we - it is not as if we are - we are not as it were engaging in some people thought we would, in a witch hunt, we are seeking to find out the truth to be able to see the whole picture as much as possible, because that again is what we are asked to do to try and give as full a picture as possible of the Human Rights Violations which happened as a result of the conflict of the past. But thank you very much. MR KROMA Thank you.