hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-04-07 GRAHAMSTOWN 1 KUKU GLADYS MAY EC0508/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55133&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/gtown/may.htm REV XUNDU Mr Chairperson, I want to know whether the gentleman is going to testify. MR MABOLE I was the one who was together with Tembekile. REV XUNDU What is your name? MR MABOLE I am Vukele Mabole. REV XUNDU Kuku Gladys May, please stand up. KUKU GLADYS MAY (Duly sworn in, states). REV XUNDU Thank you. VUKELE MABOLE (Duly sworn in, states). REV XUNDU Thank you. Mr Chairperson, they have been properly sworn in. CHAIRPERSON We welcome you, Mrs May and Mr Mabole. We will hand over to June Crichton to lead you with questions. We will start with Mrs May. MS CRICHTON Mrs May, is my voice clear to you? MRS MAY Yes. MS CRICHTON Right. Are you comfortable there now? MRS MAY Yes, I am comfortable. MS CRICHTON Right. Mrs May, you are here to speak about Simphiwe and his death. Could you, before you start, just explain to me what your relationship to Simphiwe was. MRS MAY He was my son. MS CRICHTON Alright and with you now is Vukele who was with your son on the day that he died. That is correct. MRS MAY Yes. MS CRICHTON Before we start I want to get the dates correct of the day that this happened, the day of the demonstration when he was shot in Lingelethu location. Can you tell me what date that was. I have two different dates here. MRS MAY I am not sure about the date. MS CRICHTON Alright. MRS MAY I cannot remember clearly. MS CRICHTON That is alright, we will sort that out. What was the situation in Adelaide at that time, at the end of 1980, in 1989, what was going on? MRS MAY There was toyi-toyi all over. MS CRICHTON And on this particular day your son and Vukele were on their way back from a toy-toy. Would you like to tell us what happened or would you like to pass the microphone to Vukele to talk about what happened? What would you like to do? MRS MAY We were together at work and we came back at five, the two of us. He then joined Vukele. Vukele will be the one who will tell you about what happened in the township. I am going to tell you about what happened at the police. MS CRICHTON Alright, then continue with what you want to say. MRS MAY Can you please repeat your question. MS CRICHTON When you say you want to tell me about the police, do you mean you want to tell me about afterwards? MRS MAY I was working together with my child. We went to work, on this day the police passed us. They asked me for supper, they were drunk, I gave them bread, it was after five. We met them when we were coming from work. Vukele went to his room and took money. Simphiwe went to his room and took money together with Vukele to buy a candle. At about eight when I heard gunshots, police vans came to take me to hospital where he was shot. The police took me to the charge office. They told me that my child was shot. They wanted me to go to hospital. I told them I am not going to go there. The person who shot him was there, but they did not tell me. I asked them who shot my son. I was told when we were coming back from the hospital by a woman who was together with me. We went home. Vukele will be the one who will tell you what happened. MS CRICHTON I want you to tell me, though, who you were told shot your son. MRS MAY The police told me when I was in the charge office. There were white policemen and black policemen there. MS CRICHTON Was there not one specific policeman that you were told that actually shot your son? According to the statement that I have in front of me this was a relative. MRS MAY His name is Mfunquli Nomala. MS CRICHTON Is he a relative of your family? MRS MAY No, he is not a relative, but our clan name is the same. He is a family of my son. MS CRICHTON Before I hand over to Vukele, is there anything more that you want to tell us about the court case and the funeral? MRS MAY The funeral was almost disrupted. The police were chasing people, they were dispersing teargas and they were beating people. The people were given tickets to attend the funeral. I was inside the house and I heard that there was conflict outside. I went out to the Station Commander, I spoke Afrikaans with him telling him that this was not a concert. They shot my son, they are now giving out tickets. I told them that I want my family to be, to attend the funeral. I told them not to give people tickets so that everyone can attend the funeral. After the funeral I went to, I was submitted a statement. MS CRICHTON Mrs May, was that a normal practice, to give out tickets for a funeral? Had you heard of it happening to anybody else in Adelaide? MRS MAY It was the first time I saw this. MS CRICHTON The case went to court and I understand you were not in the court. What was the outcome of the case? MRS MAY The case was heard here. We were given a date. We all went to the police station on that particular day. We were supposed to be taken by a police van. Botha told me that a police van is not a taxi, I am supposed to go and take a taxi. I went to the township to look for a taxi, I came here in Grahamstown. The case proceeded, I was not asked anything. They just took out pictures, the second day they took out the pictures again and the case proceeded. On the third day they told me to leave. They told me to go back home. MS CRICHTON Did you have an Attorney? MRS MAY Yes, there was an Attorney, but I have forgotten his name. MS CRICHTON Did you have any conversation with him after the court case? MRS MAY I did not talk, I did not talk in court, but I went to the Attorney to talk to him and he was there representing me. MS CRICHTON And he did not make any civil claim for you? MRS MAY I do not know because I did not hear anything up until today. MS CRICHTON Is there anything else you wish to say before Vukele speaks, anything that you particularly want the Commission to look at for you or do for you? MRS MAY I would like the Commission to help me, but I do not know what to say. MS CRICHTON Mrs May, I feel very saddened by the fact that you are yet another mother who has had to experience something like this and, perhaps, it will be helpful now for us to hear what Vukele, if Vukele has got anything further to add to what you have said. Are you happy about that? MRS MAY Yes. MS CRICHTON Mr Mabole, would you care to fill in any of the details that Mrs May has left out. Could you, perhaps, just tell us exactly what happened on that day. MR MABOLE On that day, it was on the 28th of August 1987, if I am not mistaken. Simphiwe was my neighbour, we use to go together all the time. On the day of this incident we were in one of our neighbours house. There is an old township and a new township. We were staying in the new township. We were separated by a river, these two townships. When we were in this new township we heard a toy-toy from the old township. When we heard this toy-toy we decided to go and join the toy-toy, because we knew that we had to be there at that time. When we arrived there we joined the toy-toy, from the new location to the old location. People were singing freedom songs, we joined the Comrades. We sang around the old location chanting freedom songs. There was a police van patrolling. It was not doing anything at that time, it was just patrolling. At about eight, if I remember clearly, one, we decided to go to our homes before anyone can be injured. When that decision was reached we went to, back to the new location together with Simphiwe. It was dark at that time. In front of us there was a group of people, although I did not know who they were. We went back to the new location and this group of people was leading us. When we were near the bridge a blue Sprinter, a police Sprinter with four police, four white police came to us. This car had to pass the people in front of us. When the group of people saw this car they ran away, they ran to the river, crossed the river. When we saw this we did not know, but we saw the police. We also ran away, crossing a river following these people. When we were on the other side of the river we looked back. We saw this car, the police opened the door, the car stopped and they were looking in our direction. We were on the other side of the river. They went into this car and they went back to the old location. We carried on walking. When we arrived in our new location we went through First Street, Jonas Street. At that time even those who were in front of us were going back to their homes. We went through the Jonas Street, through the Makhonxa Street. We were going up the street because we were staying in the other street. When we were going through the Makhonxa Street a group of people appeared. If am not mistaken, there were three or four people. They had torches with them. They were carrying torches. They made noise and they were swearing at us telling us to stop, not to run away. We managed to see that these people were police. One of them was Mfunquli Nomala, Mxolisi Sijila, the other one, he is a policeman. The other one was not a policeman, Khonzekile Mkhetshana, he was not a policeman. When we heard them we ran away, we ran through Makhonxa Street. After a while, while we were running, they were chasing us. I looked back, I saw that Nomala, Mfunquli Nomala, was the one chasing us. The others I did not see them. We went through houses in that street, through the back yards trying to hide ourselves. We reached a back street, we stopped running in front of one house. After a few minutes, Mfunquli Nomala came. When he came he faced us with the gun in his hand. He was pointing us with the gun. Simphiwe got scared, as I was also scared. He tried to talk to him as he knew him. He tried to tell him that he was Simphiwe, but at that time Mfunquli did not want to listen although Simphiwe was pleading for his life, Mfunquli told him to shut up, not to say anything. MS CRICHTON Are you saying then that he was shot without any questions being asked? He was just shot simply because he was running away? Is that what you are telling me? MR MABOLE Can you please repeat. MS CRICHTON I am just saying they asked no questions, they simply shot Simphiwe? MR MABOLE Yes, no questions were asked. MS CRICHTON Right. Thank you very much, Vukele, for filling us in with all of that. We have the information about the court case. At that point, I presume, that you must have escaped yourself, obviously. MR MABOLE Yes. MS CRICHTON Thank you very much for your testimony and for filling us in, in for us so that we have a very clear piccture of everything. Thank you. Is there anything else that needs to be said about the court case that Mrs May left out? MR MABOLE No, there is nothing, because his mother is here. What I can say is that this was a pain to me, because as I was a student at that time, I was doing standard six, this affected me in my school work, because I use to have a picture of this all the time. As a result, at the end of the year my studies were affected, my results were affected. MS CRICHTON Just one last question. I presume that both of you were involved in student organisations. Were you, in the political organisations? MR MABOLE Simphiwe was not at school at the time. As his mother has already said that he was working with her. I was the one who was still at school. MS CRICHTON Thank you very much, indeed. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Reverend Xundu. REV XUNDU Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I want to summarise the testimony or the evidence that has been given to us. This shows us what the police, this shows us what the police did. The parents were suffering. Mothers lost their sons, their young sons. It is true that the police were supposed to be maintaining law, but they were not doing that, they were killing people. You, Vukele, you have already, you supported what Simphiwe's mother has said, but you have managed to come here to give us your story so that the people of this country can hear what happened. The Government will not allow such an incident to happen again. Your testimony will help us a lot. We thank you very much for coming here and for sharing your story with us, because you showed us your pain and we can learn from this story. Thank you very much, both of you. CHAIRPERSON We thank Reverend Xundu. We have two cases left.