hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-04-07 GRAHAMSTOWN 1 NTOMBIZODWA CYNTHIA MKETSHANE EC0515/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55139&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/gtown/mketshan.htm REV XUNDU Chairman, Ntombizodwa Cynthia Mketshane. NTOMBIZODWA CYNTHIA MKETSHANE (Duly sworn in, states). REV XUNDU Thank you. ZOLEKA WINNIE MBENENGE (Duly sworn in, states). REV XUNDU Thank you. NOMHLE CYNTHIA SABANI (Duly sworn in, states). REV XUNDU Thank you. CHAIRPERSON (Not translated) Tiny Maya (not translated). MS MAYA (Not translated) Cynthia Sabani (not translated) Mam Sabani, we can hear that this incident happened during the same period, but the difference is that you have given us a different date. We want to make sure that the death, Dumezweni died on the 28th of June 1988. So, which means that the two cases are different from the two. MS SABANI Yes, my case is different from the two. MS MAYA Thank you, we wanted to clarify that matter before proceeding. I will now start with Ntombizodwa Cynthia Mketshane. Ntombizodwa, you are here to testify about Mtutuzeli Stewart Nziweni. Is that so? What is your relationship to him? MRS MKETSHANE He was my husband. MS MAYA You said that he joined the Municipality Police in Adelaide in November 1985. In January 1986 he went for a police training in Port Elizabeth and came back to Adelaide. Is that so? MRS MKETSHANE Yes, that is correct. MS MAYA On this day you said that he was no longer staying in the township because a group of youth asked him to leave the township because he was a police. Is that so? MRS MKETSHANE Yes. MS MAYA In 1986 he went to train again, but he came back to Adelaide in July. MRS MKETSHANE Yes. MS MAYA On the day of his death, on the 27th of July 1986, you said that he left the house with two of his friends, Michael Sinqana and Dugard Mlsholana to go to the township. Is that so? MRS MKETSHANE They were, he accompanied the two men to pick up their girlfriends in the township. MS MAYA Can you please tell us briefly what happened according to your knowledge. MRS MKETSHANE On this particular day he left home and I told him not to go, to accompany the two men, because the two men were going to their girlfriends. He said that, no, they will return quickly. It was about ten or 11 in the morning. In the afternoon at about two I heard that there was shooting in the township. I had a small baby at the time. My baby had nine months, was nine months old. I took my baby and I wanted to see who was shooting. I could see from the other side. I saw Michael Sinqana coming from the township together with his girlfriend Nokazola. I asked them where my husband was. They told me that, no, he was on his way to town. When I was going to the township trying to find out what was happening, one woman took my baby. I saw that the way many people, a group of people in the field. Someone was being beaten up. I could see a white thing, because my husband was wearing a white trouser my mind told me that he was the one who was being beaten up. I then met Dugard Mlsholana, I asked him where my husband was. He told me he was coming, they left him there. The Casper then appeared and it went to the field. Many people dispersed. When I was trying to go there one soldier stopped me. He asked me to tell him what clothes my husband was wearing. I told him that he was wearing a white trouser, brown belt and he looked at me, he shook his head. Sergeant Brown who was also a Municipal Police came driving a police van. At that time I could not think properly. My sister ran away, she ran to this thing. When my sister arrived there, she came back to me and she told me that he is still alive and I told myself that I was going to ask him why you did not listen to me, because I told him not to go to the township. This soldier shook his head. Sergeant Brown took me to the hospital. They said that my husband was in a Casper and I was in police van together with Sergeant Brown. Dr Letaga came in hospital with an injection. He asked me how was your husband. I told him that we were co-operating with my husband. We were, we had a good relationship, he was listening to me. Dr Letaga told me that my husband was dead. He gave me this injection and he told them to take me to bed. I could not sleep. I heard my baby crying. My child was brought to me by the woman who took him from me. I asked the doctor to release me on the following day to be with my baby. I do not know what else happened, but we buried him. When the case was investigated I heard that the person who killed him was Fafa. Nobody came to me to tell me directly who killed my husband. I just heard that it was Fafa. That was all I knew about the case. I was again informed that an identity document was also found on the body by Mxolisi Gazi. There was one day when we were called by the Magistrate by the name of Terblanche. The case was examined. Michael Sinqana, Dugard Mlsholana were there. After that day we were told that the people who killed him were not found. MS MAYA When you say that you were called in a Magistrates Court, was there anyone charged for killing your husband? MRS MKETSHANE Yes, it was Fafa. MS MAYA Who is Fafa? MRS MKETSHANE Fafa was the one who killed him. MS MAYA Did you know him before? MRS MKETSHANE Yes, he was a Comrade. MS MAYA Is he still around? MRS MKETSHANE Yes, he is still around. MS MAYA Do you meet with each other? MRS MKETSHANE He is scarce. I was told that he was not in Adelaide. MS MAYA After your husband's death, did you meet with him and talk to him? MRS MKETSHANE No, we did not meet, but shortly after this incident I met him in town. I was still wearing black clothes. What he did was, he came to me and I was scared of him, because I was thinking about what, what happened, but fortunately there were people around, the Municipality Police were around. They took me to the shop, Durant Shop. After all this, when we went back to the township, we use to greet each other. When I saw him in the township I would greet him and he will greet me back. He left Adelaide after that. MS MAYA What happened to the case, was it dismissed? MRS MKETSHANE Yes. MS MAYA You said that your husband left you with small children. MRS MKETSHANE He left me with a baby who was nine months old. MS MAYA How old is the child now? MRS MKETSHANE The child is 11 years old. MS MAYA Are you working now? MRS MKETSHANE No, I am not working. MS MAYA How are you supporting your child? MRS MKETSHANE There is a grant that my child gets from the Government. MS MAYA Do you have any request to the Commission? MRS MKETSHANE I have only one request to the Commission. I do not want conflict between myself and the community. I do receive a grant from the Government for my child, but I would like to be helped so that my child can be educated. MS MAYA Did anyone come to you and explain why your husband was killed in the township? MRS MKETSHANE After a while, after this incident, it is said that at the time they were in the township, they went to Duda's house. Ntimshane's girlfriend was staying in that house. I just heard this, I do not know whether it is the truth. I heard that they were drinking their drinks. Michael Sinqana, because he was going to look for his girlfriend, there was conflict between him and the Comrades in the township. The Comrades were angry. Michael went to take Stewart, my husband, and he told them that they must go back home and do their job. People say that my husband said that, let us go back, because I left my wife alone. Michael was drunk at that time. He took my husband to the field. Michael shot first when they were chased by these people who were watching a soccer match. My husband ran away, he tried to shoot until the bullets were all finished and Michael and Totana managed to run away. MS MAYA According to your knowledge, when your husband was shooting, was there any person injured? MRS MKETSHANE I heard that one guy, Mbenenge, passed away on that day. MS MAYA Thank you. Let me know go to Zoleka. Your full names, are you Zoleka Winnie Mbenenge? MS MBENENGE Yes. MS MAYA You are going to talk about Tembekile Eric Mbenenge. What is your relationship? MS MBENENGE He was my brother. MS MAYA How old was he? MS MBENENGE He was 30 years old. MS MAYA As you have already said, your case is the same as the lady who just testified. Do you have, do you know what happened to your brother when he died on the 27th of July 1986? MS MBENENGE It was on a Sunday, that day. My brother had attended a soccer match. It was about two to three in the afternoon. At about four or five we saw he was brought by a car by the Comrades. They told us that Tembekile was shot. They took him to Alice to Dr Mbethe. He was then transferred to Cecilia Makiwane Hospital. My mother tried to visit him in hospital, he was still alive in Cecilia Makiwane at that time. They went to visit him, he was still alive on their first visit. When they visited him on the second time he had passed away. He was brought back and he was buried at home. We were not in the soccer match, but we just heard that Michael Sinqana and Dugard was there together with one police called, with one Sergeant. MS MAYA What happened? MS MBENENGE We did not hear anything about what happened. MS MAYA Was there a court case? MS MBENENGE No, there was no court case. MS MAYA Did you go to an Attorney? MS MBENENGE No. MS MAYA You have mentioned that he was 30 years old. Did he have a wife? MS MBENENGE No, he did not have a wife, but he had a child? MS MAYA How old is that child? MS MBENENGE He is 11 years old. He is doing standard two. MS MAYA According to your knowledge, was he a member of any political organisation or was he just shot? MS MBENENGE Everybody who was there was being shot. MS MAYA At home, do you have a request to the Commission? MS MBENENGE Our request to the Commission is that we want the Commission to investigate to the Cecilia Makiwane, how many bullets were found in his body. Were they taken out or were they buried, was he buried with them. MS MAYA In other words, you mean that there was no post mortem. MS MBENENGE No. MS MAYA There was no inquest? MS MBENENGE No, there was no inquest. MS MAYA Is there anything else you want to add? MS MBENENGE No. MS MAYA You said that this child is at school? MS MBENENGE Yes, he is at school. He is receiving a grant. MS MAYA How old is the child? MS MBENENGE He is 11 years old. MS MAYA Is that all you want to say? MS MBENENGE Yes, that is all. MS MAYA Thank you, Zoleka. This grant is it a Government grant? MS MBENENGE Yes. MS MAYA You are going to tell us about Dumezweni Sabani. Is that so? MS SABANI Yes. MS MAYA You said that he was a soccer player. What is your relationship to him? MS SABANI He was my brother. MS MAYA As we are reading your statement, as I have already said, there are things connected to the two stories that have been mentioned, but the dates are different. We would like you to give us his death certificate. MS SABANI This is the same case, Mam. I think I have written a wrong date. MS MAYA In other words, your story is 27 July 1986? MS SABANI No, in 1985. MS MAYA We would like you to tell us about what happened. Do you have anything different from what has already been said? MS SABANI No. MS MAYA What did you hear, what happened to your brother? MS SABANI One boy came to tell us this, but I do not remember who this boy was. He said that there was shooting in the soccer field. Dumezweni was one of the people who was shot. I asked this boy was he injured. He said that he did not know, but he fell down. He was running towards the church. MS MAYA When did you hear that he died? MS SABANI We went to the scene together with my mother. When we arrived there he was lying down. I was not aware that he was dead. I tried to wake him up, but we found out that he was dead. We cried. The police van came, Mr Botha and Mr Twana were amongst those police. We were crying. They asked us why were we crying, whose child was supposed to die. Mr Botha went to Dumezweni. He took out a knife and took out a bullet from his body. MS MAYA After that what happened? MS SABANI They told us we have to be present when they were doing post mortem. MS MAYA What happened to that bullet? MS SABANI Botha took that bullet and we were scared of asking him. MS MAYA Is this Botha the same Botha that was mentioned? ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Chairperson, this is a very painful story. People are telling us their story. This is not a cinema. MS MAYA Please continue. Botha took out this bullet from his body. What happened? You mentioned that you went to court. MS SABANI He took out the bullet and we did not ask him what he did about the bullet, but we were told to be present when the post mortem was conducted. Dr Letaga said that there was no bullet in the body. We were scared to say that Botha took it out. MS MAYA Where is Mr Botha? MS SABANI He is still around. MS MAYA Is he still a police? MS SABANI No, he is a pensioner, but he is still in Adelaide. MS MAYA How old was your brother? MS SABANI He was born in 1963. MS MAYA Did he have his family? MS SABANI No. MS MAYA Did he have a child? MS SABANI No, he did not have any? MS MAYA Do you have anything else to add to what you have already said? MS SABANI No. MS MAYA Do you have a request to the Commission? Do you have a request to the Commission as you lost your brother? MS SABANI Yes, my brother was supporting my mother and my mother is not well, because her child was killed. I am also ill, I cannot work. MS MAYA As the perpetrators were not prosecuted, you do not even know what happened to the bullet. Do you know or do you want to know what happened? MS SABANI Yes, we want to know what happened to my brother. MS MAYA Is that all, Mam? MS SABANI Yes, that is all. MS MAYA I will now hand over to the Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Reverend Xundu. REV XUNDU Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I will ask you, Ms Mketshane. That in your story you mentioned that people were killed. As the community, did you come together to try to make peace? MRS MKETSHANE No, we did not come together. REV XUNDU Is there any conflict now in your, between you and the people and the family members? MRS MKETSHANE We meet with the Mbenenge family. There is no conflict between us. REV XUNDU And with Mrs Sabani? MRS MKETSHANE There is no conflict between us. REV XUNDU On your side, in the Mketshane family, are you satisfied, did you understand what happened, did you understand the situation at that time? MRS MKETSHANE Can you please repeat, Sir? REV XUNDU I was saying that as Mrs Mketshane has testified, in the conflict that was in that soccer match, there was shooting all over and her husband was one of the people who was shooting. Did you understand the situation? Is there peace between you? MRS MKETSHANE Yes, there is peace, we forgave each other. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Ntombizodwa Mketshane, I have one question for you. The colleagues of your husband, the ones who were together with him, are they still alive? MRS MKETSHANE One of them has passed away, one of them is still alive. CHAIRPERSON The one who is still alive, do you have contact with him? MRS MKETSHANE Yes, even the past two weeks he was at home, at my home. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any answer to the Mbenenge questions, because Zoleka, one of her requests is that she would like to know more, to find out what happened to his brother. MRS MKETSHANE I will try to help. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Let me thank all of you. Ntsiki Sandi. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mrs Mketshane, in the two policemen who left with your husband, who is still alive? MRS MKETSHANE Dugard Mlsholana has passed away. Michael Sinqana is still alive. ADV SANDI When did Dugard Mlsholana die? MRS MKETSHANE He died in 1995. ADV SANDI Was he sick? MRS MKETSHANE He died in a car accident. He was from Port Elizabeth to Uitenhage. ADV SANDI As they took your husband that day did they come to you and explain to you what happened? MRS MKETSHANE They did not come to me to explain. ADV SANDI They did not tell you what happened? MRS MKETSHANE No, they did not tell me. I just heard from their girlfriends when they were talking to each other. ADV SANDI When they left home were they driving or what? MRS MKETSHANE No, they were not driving. They just walked to the township. ADV SANDI Is there any other place they mentioned except visiting their girlfriends? MRS MKETSHANE No, when they left me they said that they were visiting their girlfriends and they went to Dugard Mlsholana's girlfriend and went through the soccer match field. ADV SANDI As you lost your husband who was killed when he was accompanying them, when you are having a problem at home do you go to them for help? MRS MKETSHANE No, because Michael Sinqana is no longer a policeman. He is staying in the township now. ADV SANDI In the police force, did you get money after your husband died? MRS MKETSHANE Yes, I did receive money. ADV SANDI Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I want to thank the three of you because you agreed to testify together. I think this is the first time such a thing happened in this region, the Eastern Cape region. Mrs Mketshane was the wife of a police who took part in shooting your family members, Mrs Sabani and you, Zoleka. I think this is wonderful that you have agreed to come forward together, to testify together. You have shown a pain is a pain. If you were others, you will not agree to testify with Mrs Mketshane, but you have agreed to come forward together with her. You have shown us that killing a person does not take sides. We also thank Ntombizodwa Mketshane because she promised that as Zoleka wanted to know the details of her brother's death, she promised that she will help in investigating. You also made peace amongst each other. When my colleague asked you how you felt, you said that there was peace amongst you. This is a good example. We thank you for that. We would like this example to be followed by other people, to accept the pain as you did. We thank you people from Adelaide.