hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-04-07 GRAHAMSTOWN 1 MANDLAKAYISE "MATU" MPHITHI EC0495/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55141&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/gtown/mphithi.htm REV XUNDU Mandlakayise Matu Mphithi, please stand up. MR MPHITHI (Duly sworn in, states) REV XUNDU Mr Chairman, he has been properly sworn in. CHAIRPERSON We welcome you, Mandlakayise. We will ask Tiny Maya to lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission. MS MAYA Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mandlakayise, according to your statement in front of us, you are going to tell us about three incidents that happened to you. Two of them happened on the 8th of May 1985 where you were tortured by the police in Bedford. You were also chopped off two fingers. The third one is about the State Emergency in 1986. Please tell us briefly what happened to you. MR MPHITHI In 1985, in 1985 in Bedford I was on my way to shop, to the coloured area. At the time there was a consumer boycott. I went from the township to the coloured area. When I arrived there in the shop, one person came out of the shop. He came to me, he said that, Comrade, I just want to know one thing, let us go outside. We went out. I did not ask what was it, I just went out with him. I told him to hurry up, because I wanted to buy something in the shop. When he arrived outside he said that you are one of the people who destroyed my food. It was dark at the shop, when I went out I saw him taking out a knife. I tried to defend myself, I thought it was abating, because it was dark. He cut, he chopped me and he ran away. After that I went back, I ran back to the shop. When I looked at my hand, my fingers were chopped. The owner of the shop tried to help me, he tried to block the blood. He phoned the ambulance, he phoned again the ambulance for the second time. When the ambulance arrived they told me, they told him that they cannot take me to hospital. They told the owner of the shop to phone the police. The owner of the shop told them that he will pay them R10,00 to take me to hospital. He paid them this R10,00 and they took me to hospital. When I arrived in hospital the police also arrived. They wanted to talk to me. I told them that I cannot talk to them, because I was in pain. I told them to come the following day. They left. The following morning they came back in hospital. They asked me whether I was laying a charge against the person who did this to me. I said, yes, but I will lay a charge when I would be, when I was out of hospital. They asked me to give them a statement. I said that I do not have a statement to give them. I will go to them and give a statement when I was released from hospital. The doctors took me to the theatre to operate me. I stayed for two weeks and the third week, when I was going to the township, I met police in their Hippo. People were running away. I was still in pain at that time. When I tried to run away the police came. They took me to the Hippo. When I was in that Hippo they kicked me although I was coming from the hospital. They arrested me. I was in pain and I told them that I was sick, I was not well. MS MAYA Let us go back. At the time you were in a shop, did you know the person who took you outside? MR MPHITHI Yes, I knew him. MS MAYA Who was he? MR MPHITHI It was Gideon. MS MAYA Who was Gideon? MR MPHITHI He was a coloured man. MS MAYA Why did he take you out of the shop? MR MPHITHI I do not know, because he said to me he wanted to ask me something concerning being a Comrade. When I wanted to know what it was he took out a knife. When I tried to defend myself he cut my fingers. MS MAYA Did you lay a charge against him to the police? MR MPHITHI No. MS MAYA Why did you not lay a charge? MR MPHITHI Please repeat. MS MAYA Why did you not lay a charge against him? MR MPHITHI When I was released from the hospital I went to the police. I told them I wanted to lay a charge. They just took me and they arrested me. MS MAYA Was there a court case? MR MPHITHI No, there was no court case. MS MAYA You mentioned a consumer boycott. What was happening? MR MPHITHI We were not supposed to buy in town as we were fighting for our rights. It was when Comrade Goniwe and others died. We, as the community, were in pain. We did not allow people to go and buy in town, because of certain reasons. We were supposed to buy only in the townships, but I was not involved in such things. Even when I got injured I was just on my way to shop. MS MAYA This Gideon told you that he wanted to know about being a Comrade. You went out to explain to him. What were you going to explain to him? MR MPHITHI I wanted to ask him what he wanted to say. MS MAYA How old were you at the time? MR MPHITHI I was 18 years old. MS MAYA Were you at school? MR MPHITHI No, I was not at school. MS MAYA What were you doing? Were you working? MR MPHITHI No, I was staying at home looking after livestock. MS MAYA Was there any organisation in the community or the youth organisation you belonged to? MR MPHITHI No. MS MAYA You say that it was a normal thing, at that time, for people at your age not to belong in an organisation? MR MPHITHI At that time I use to go out to look for my, out for the livestock. MS MAYA Let us now continue from where you said that you were arrested when you were laying a charge. For how long did you stay there? MR MPHITHI I stayed for 50 days. MS MAYA What happened in prison? MR MPHITHI When I was there, there was a police by the name of Matiwane Stemele. He would come to our cell and beat us and assault us. When I was about to be released he said that I am supposed to give them the guns that were in my home. I told them I know nothing about the guns. He told me that he will assault me, because I do know about these guns. MS MAYA Do you know of any reason this policeman was accusing you of this? MR MPHITHI No. MS MAYA What happened after you were released? MR MPHITHI I went home. When I arrived at home I asked my mother where was my younger brother. My mother told me that the police are looking for us and they are saying that there are petrol bombs and guns in my house and they were looking for them. I told my mother we know nothing about the petrol bombs and the guns. We did not know what the police wanted from us. MS MAYA Where was your younger brother? MR MPHITHI He was sleeping in the forest, because they were running away from home, because they were being assaulted by the police. When I arrived at home I was not happy. Every morning and every night the police would come. We would not sleep. They would come to my room, knock and kick the door. When I asked them what they wanted, they said they would beat me up and say that they wanted these guns. They would take me to the van and take us to prison, assault us and release us. MS MAYA Who were these people who assaulted you? MR MPHITHI It was Matiwane Stemele. MS MAYA Who is Sam Gcali, who is Sam Gcali? MR MPHITHI He is from Cradock. He is a policeman. He was one of the people assaulting me. I did not know why they were assaulting me, because I knew nothing. I only looked for livestock. I did not know what they wanted from me. MS MAYA What about Rooibaard? MR MPHITHI He was a policeman from Bedford. MS MAYA Where are they now? MR MPHITHI Stemele committed a suicide, he shot himself. Rooibaard is still in Bedford. MS MAYA Is he still a policeman? MR MPHITHI Yes. MS MAYA What about Gcali? MR MPHITHI Gcali is a policeman in Cradock. MS MAYA Do you see them now? MR MPHITHI No, but I only see Thomas in Bedford. MS MAYA Who is Thomas? MR MPHITHI Thomas is a police. MS MAYA Was he one of the people who assaulted you? MR MPHITHI Yes. MS MAYA What happened after all this? MR MPHITHI I became sick, my ribs were broken. The doctor took me to hospital and they transferred me to East London. MS MAYA What year was this? Was it 1985 or 1986? MR MPHITHI It was in 1986. They took me to East London. In East London the doctor said that I must stay in hospital to recover. I stayed there in hospital. I was sick and I was not well. I was afraid of being assaulted. I will tell the doctor that I am not okay so that he will not discharge me from hospital, because I was scared of being beaten up. I stayed in hospital. The doctor would come to me and ask me how I felt. I will tell them, him that I am not well, because I was scared I did not want to go back home, because I would be assaulted by the police. We were not happy at that time. MS MAYA How long did you stay in hospital? MR MPHITHI I stayed for a year in hospital. I stayed for a whole year. MS MAYA Which hospital is this? MR MPHITHI It was in East London, but I do not remember the name of the hospital. MS MAYA Do you remember the doctor, the name of the doctor? MR MPHITHI There were many doctors. I do not know who was my actual doctor. MS MAYA When you came back from hospital were you assaulted? MR MPHITHI No, I was not assaulted, but my younger brother, when I came back, was the one who was being assaulted. He was shot when I came back. MS MAYA What was your brother's name? MR MPHITHI It was Stellom Mphithi. MS MAYA Where is he? MR MPHITHI He is in Bedford. He was shot by Mabityi in Newbright. MS MAYA Why was he shot? MR MPHITHI I do not know. He was in Port Elizabeth. MS MAYA Was it in connection with political activists? MR MPHITHI I do not know. MS MAYA Do you know whether he was a member of any organisation? MR MPHITHI No, I do not know. MS MAYA Mandlakayise, what is your request to the Commission? What is your request to the Commission? MR MPHITHI My request to the Commission is that police were harassing us and I cannot forgive them, because they were not supposed to treat us and it was against the Law to torture us and to treat us like that, because our lives were not safe. MS MAYA In other words, what are you saying to the police now? MR MPHITHI What I am saying is that I cannot forgive them. I would like them to, I would like new members to be placed in the police force. MS MAYA You said that you want the perpetrators to come forward. MR MPHITHI Yes. MS MAYA You also mentioned that you need disability grant in order to take care of your ten year old child. Is that all you want to say? MR MPHITHI Yes, that is all. MS MAYA Thank you Mandlakayise. I will hand over to the Chairperson. Maybe there are questions you are going to be asked by my colleagues. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON June Crichton. MS CRICHTON Mr Mphithi, I just have two questions for you. The first one is, maybe, a difficult question, but, perhaps, you may answer it if you want to. Were you ever approached by any State officials to assist them in their work against the community? MR MPHITHI No, I was not approached by any. MS CRICHTON Alright and the second question is to ask you what is the situation in Bedford now? You are saying that those who were part of assaulting you are actually still in Bedford, one of them is still in the police in Bedford. What is the situation in the community now? MR MPHITHI The situation in Bedford is not the same as before. Things are better now. MS CRICHTON Thank you, Mr Mphithi. MR MPHITHI Thank you, Mam. CHAIRPERSON Ntsiki Sandi. ADV SANDI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mandlakayise, you said that you stayed for a year in hospital. MR MPHITHI Yes, that is so. ADV SANDI You do not know the name of the hospital? MR MPHITHI No, I do not know the name of the hospital. ADV SANDI The doctors in the hospital, you do not remember even one of them? MR MPHITHI No, I do not remember any, because there were many. Some of them were indians, coloureds, etcetera. ADV SANDI You did not hear anyone mentioning the name of a doctor in hospital? MR MPHITHI In front of me, no. ADV SANDI Do you know any of the nurses there in that hospital? MR MPHITHI No, I did not know any name, the nurse. I did not know anyone. ADV SANDI What is it, your left or right hand that was injured? MR MPHITHI It was the left. ADV SANDI You said that Gideon injured you. Is he a policeman or what? MR MPHITHI Gideon was against the police, but he was together with the police. ADV SANDI He was together with the police? MR MPHITHI Yes, he was working together with the police. ADV SANDI Except that he was working with the police, what was his job? MR MPHITHI I do not know about his job. ADV SANDI Was he staying in your community? MR MPHITHI He was staying in a coloured township. ADV SANDI Is he still there? MR MPHITHI No, he passed away. ADV SANDI You mentioned a consumer boycott, were you part of that decision? MR MPHITHI No, I was not part of it. ADV SANDI When the shops in town were boycotted were you not part of that? MR MPHITHI No, I was not part of it. ADV SANDI Did you go and buy in town? MR MPHITHI No, I would not go and buy in town. ADV SANDI What was happening to the people who broke this law. Were there any people who broke the law? MR MPHITHI No. ADV SANDI Everybody agreed? MR MPHITHI Yes, everybody worked together. ADV SANDI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mandlakayise, do you know Matthew Goniwe? MR MPHITHI I do not know him, but I hear people talking about him. When I was injured, I got injured in that funeral, I was injured on the day before the funeral, I wanted to go to the funeral in Cradock, but I could not, because I got injured. CHAIRPERSON People who were not involved in politics did not use to go to such funerals, why did you want to go? MR MPHITHI I wanted to go, because I wanted to join people who use to go. I would follow them and join them. CHAIRPERSON But you were just looking after livestock, you were not in politics? MR MPHITHI Yes, I would take livestock and I would follow people to such places. CHAIRPERSON When people were arrested in Bedford, when you were arrested, sorry, in Bedford were there any Comrades who were arrested? MR MPHITHI Yes, there were many. CHAIRPERSON You were part of them? MR MPHITHI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why were they arrested? MR MPHITHI I do not know. CHAIRPERSON But the hospital you were admitted in in East London, although you do not know its name, do you know the hospital? MR MPHITHI Yes. CHAIRPERSON If you can go to East London can you be able to point the hospital? MR MPHITHI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mandlakayise. You have told us a painful story that happened in small towns. People would be arrested like flies. You have told us a painful story, but the way you present your story, you make us laugh. We are laughing because you remember nothing, you were just looking after your livestock, but we can see that if we can sit down with you, there is a lot we can get from you that you have not revealed here today. We thank you and we will try to find out the name of the hospital. I know that you have mentioned that you do not remember the name. I know that if you are coming from a small town and you go into a city, you become confused. It might happen that you do not remember the name of the hospital, but it is important for us to know the hospital so that we can get a medical report. We thank you, Mandlakayise. You may step down. Do not run away, we will come back to you.