hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, SUBMISSIONS QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS 1997-04-07 GRAHAMSTOWN 1 JONI TSILI EC0046/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55154&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/gtown/tsili.htm CHAIRPERSON Are you Joni Tsili? MR TSILI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Where is Jacob Nombiba? Who are you Ma'am? MR TSILI She is my daughter, she was present at the time when her mother was injured. CHAIRPERSON Is she going to testify? MR TSILI Yes because she was there. CHAIRPERSON What is her name? MR TSILI Her name is Nomangesi Tsili. CHAIRPERSON We welcome you and we would ask Rev Xundu to help you take an oath. I will start with you Mr Joni Tsili, please stand up. JONI TSILI (sworn states) NOMANGESI TSILI (sworn states) JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON We will ask Reverend Xundu to lead them questions on behalf of the Commission. REV XUNDU I don't know whether Nomangesi is going to start and tell us about the situation in Grahamstown so that we can have a clear picture of what was happening in Grahamstown. Please Nomangesi tell us briefly, give us a clear picture of what was happening in Grahamstown. MISS TSILI At the time there were school boycotts. There are schools in our streets, Andrew Moyake and Natalenyawusa High School. On this particular day all the people came from Josa to join the boycott. Students would not wear their uniforms, it was about nine or ten on that day. We were going to the shop, I was going to the shop together with my mother, we watched students as they were toyi-toying, singing around the school. We were passing a crowd. My mother was disturbed by this because her son was a comrade and he was a member of this crowd. REV XUNDU Were you a student? MISS TSILI Yes I was doing standard one at the time, I was 10 years old. REV XUNDU Your mother was she a member of a political organisation? MISS TSILI No. REV XUNDU In other words she was coming from the shop? MISS TSILI We were on our way to the shop at that time. REV XUNDU What is important is at that time people were struggling, they did not want to accept that policy of the government at that time. MISS TSILI Yes. REV XUNDU Your mother was just passing by? MISS TSILI Yes we were just going to the shop. REV XUNDU According to your view was it an incident that your mother got shot? MISS TSILI When we came back from the shop we saw police vans. We decided to go home. The police came out of their vans, together with dogs, some of them went inside the school beating the students. There were residents outside who were watching this. Students couldn't go out because the gates were locked, we ran away because everybody was being beaten up. REV XUNDU You said that police were beating Black people? MISS TSILI Yes they were beating people all over in the street. REV XUNDU There was no law governing at that time. MISS TSILI We went in the first yard but the owner of that house chased us away. We went to another yard but the gate was locked, we couldn't open it. My mother tried to let me in that yard but she couldn't go in. There was a small hole. It was the last time I saw her. I came in that house, there were many students, some were injured. REV XUNDU According to your view your mother got shot at that time? MISS TSILI At about five minutes when I was inside that house I heard from those who came in that house saying that my mother was shot outside. REV XUNDU In your statement you mentioned that the police who shot your mother was Tungata, did you see him or did you hear this? MISS TSILI I heard this from people. My father used to go to court, because I was still young I couldn't understand what was going on. REV XUNDU The name of Tungata was mentioned in court? MISS TSILI Yes. REV XUNDU Did he agree? Did he agree that he was the one who shot your wife? MR TSILI Yes he did. REV XUNDU After the court case were you compensated by the government due to this? MR TSILI No we were not compensated but they told me that my lawyer was defeated by the State's attorney. I was supposed to pay 800, I asked them what for. They told me that my lawyer was defeated by the State attorney. I told them I'm not going to pay the money. They said that I must not say that I am not going to pay the money, but I must say I don't have it. I told them that I'm not going to pay the money. If you want to shoot me, shoot me so that I can join my wife. They told me I have to pay the 800 REV XUNDU Who told you this? MR TSILI The police in the police station told me. The police station in New City. REV XUNDU Do you know the name of the policeman who told you this? MR TSILI No I don't know his name. I told them I'm not going to pay the 800. REV XUNDU You buried your wife? MR TSILI Yes, but the police were all over. They were in my house. They wanted to shoot the people who attended the funeral. I went to the police telling them they must leave my house. REV XUNDU You mean that this funeral was not dignified? MR TSILI Yes they told me to bury my wife on a Wednesday. I told them that I'm not going to do that because my family was all over, some of them were in Port Elizabeth, but we managed to bury my wife on Saturday. REV XUNDU Was she working? MR TSILI No, she was not working, she was selling veg in the township. REV XUNDU But she was supporting the family by selling veg? MR TSILI Yes. REV XUNDU What would you like the Commission to do for you? MR TSILI I don't know what to say but the Commission will see what to do for me because my child was only 10 years old at that time. Others at least were grown up, but I tried to educate them. REV XUNDU Listen Sir you will have to tell us what you would like the Commission to do. Just tell us your request so that we can see what we can do so that we can forward your request to the President. MR TSILI My wife was supporting me, we were not suffering at that time, now I am alone and I cannot support my family. REV XUNDU Do you receive a pension? MR TSILI Yes I do. REV XUNDU Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairperson. REV XUNDU Before my colleagues ask questions, let me continue with Mr Nombiba, what is your clan name Sir? MR NOMBIBA I am Dhlamini. REV XUNDU Mr Zizi can you please give us a picture of what happened when Boyboy was shot? MR NOMBIBA It was in 1980 when this incident happened. It was a funeral that day, Mrs Tsili's funeral. It was on Saturday in 1980. People went to the funeral and these boys after the funeral went home, and thereafter late afternoon that day the hippo were all over the township. I sent my boy to the shop at that time to go and buy paraffin. After a while he did not come back. I heard seven shots being fired. I was not happy, I was restless because my boy was not coming back. I went out looking for him. While I was still doing that I saw one boy coming in asking where Boyboy was staying. I said he was staying here. He told me that he was shot on the corner of Q Street. We went there together with my wife. We found him lying down. He was not dead at that time. We tried to find a vehicle to take him to the hospital. We managed to get a car. REV XUNDU Was Boyboy a student at the time? MR NOMBIBA Yes. REV XUNDU Was he in a political organisation? MR NOMBIBA I am not sure because at that time the children did not tell us everything, they would deny being a member, although they were members. REV XUNDU Was Mrs Tsili a member of a political organisation? MR NOMBIBA I don't know, but all the boys went to attend her funeral. REV XUNDU You said that it was a political funeral in Grahamstown, do you agree that Mrs Tsili was buried and her funeral was organised by the activists? MR NOMBIBA I don't know but the boys went to attend the funeral. I don't know whether they were activists or what. When I was asking my son he didn't tell me anything. REV XUNDU Were there any regulations made to the funeral or were there any police present? MR NOMBIBA I don't know because my boy didn't tell me anything. REV XUNDU Were there police at the funeral to observe what was happening? They used to observe activists' funerals. You mentioned that these boys went to attend Mrs Tsili's funeral, after that there was a toyi-toyi, what I am asking is that was Mrs Tsili a member of a political organisation or were the police observing the funeral? MR NOMBIBA I don't know about that Sir. REV XUNDU You said that you sent your son to the shop and you heard that he was shot, was it the usual thing that when you send your child to the shop they would be shot? MR NOMBIBA Yes. REV XUNDU In other words you are saying that the police were just killing everyone? MR NOMBIBA Yes that is correct. REV XUNDU Your son was also a victim of this police act? MR NOMBIBA Yes. REV XUNDU Was there a court case? MR NOMBIBA Yes there was a court case after a while, after his funeral. REV XUNDU Were there any police charged? MR NOMBIBA Yes the policeman was in the court. He was testifying against my son. REV XUNDU Did he accept that he shot him? MR NOMBIBA Yes, he said that the reason for him to shoot my son was that he was leading a dangerous in Q Street, they were throwing stones. This policeman said that it was then that he decided to shoot him to protect the White men in the hippo. REV XUNDU Was that the end of the case? MR NOMBIBA Yes. REV XUNDU Did you receive any compensation? MR NOMBIBA No. REV XUNDU Do you have a request to the Commission to forward to the State President? MR NOMBIBA Can you please repeat your question Sir? REV XUNDU Sir maybe you have a request to the State President due to this incident because you lost your son? Do you have anything to say to the Commission so that we can forward your request to the President? MR NOMBIBA Yes I do have a request. This child was supporting me at home. I told the statement-takers my request because they wanted me to say what I want from the government and I told them, I told the statement-takers. REV XUNDU What did you tell them? MR NOMBIBA I told them that I wanted the government to assist me, to give me R90 000. REV XUNDU Do you have any request except the one you've just mentioned, do you have anything else to add? MR NOMBIBA (...indistinct) REV XUNDU Mr Chairperson I think we are finished. Let me hand over to you now. CHAIRPERSON Ntsiki Sandi? MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. I would like to address this question to the Tsili family. Mr Tsili you said that during the court case, did you go there to listen? MR TSILI Yes. MR SANDI Who represented you? MR TSILI Nobody represented us, they were just talking to us. They showed us the police who killed my wife. They said that he was Tungata from Port Elizabeth. He was a tall man. MR SANDI You say that you were not represented by a lawyer? MR TSILI There was a lawyer but I don't remember clearly who it was because I was still confused at that time because of the loss. I don't know who hired the lawyer because I did not hire a lawyer but there was a lawyer representing us, the one who it was said he was defeated by the State attorney. MR SANDI I want to make sure about this Mr Tungata. Do you have his full names? MR TSILI No I don't know his full names, but they just showed us him. MR SANDI You said that in court Mr Tungata accepted the responsibility to say that he was the one who shot your wife? MR TSILI Yes. MR SANDI Did he give reasons? MR TSILI Yes. He said that he was shooting students who were running away, the bullet shot my wife. MR SANDI Why was he shooting students? MR TSILI He said that he was shooting them because they did not want to attend classes, he wanted them to go back to school. MR SANDI You mean that they were standing them, they were shooting them, telling them to go back to school? MR TSILI Yes they were shooting them and there were dogs all over. MR SANDI Let us go back to R800. The police who said that you were supposed to pay R800 is there a written order that they showed you from court stating that you have to pay R800? MR TSILI No there was no written order. We were in the police station, we were not in court at the time. MR SANDI Did you receive a letter at home saying that you must pay R800? MR TSILI No because I told them that I am not going to pay the money. They asked me whether I was - I had a car or a house. I told them that whether I have a car or not is not their business because I am not going to pay this money. MR SANDI This Mr Tungata did you hear anything about him? MR TSILI No, I last saw him in court in my wife's case. MR SANDI Thank you Mr Tsili, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nombiba I have a few questions for you. I want to know Sir who was representing you in court, who was the lawyer representing you in court? MR NOMBIBA There was no lawyer representing us. CHAIRPERSON Why did you not hire a lawyer, were you not interested or were you not able to afford a lawyer? MR NOMBIBA The reason is that at that time the police said that I was a killer, I was the cause of all the trouble in Grahamstown. That is the reason that I did not hire a lawyer because all the lawyers were under the government. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Sir for that answer. We know that many people lost their people, they couldn't get lawyers because they thought that the lawyers were representing the system. You mentioned that there was a policeman who said that he was the one who shot your son, do you still remember his name? MR NOMBIBA I heard his name being mentioned, his name was Philip. I also saw the name on my son's death certificate, the name of the people who killed my son. CHAIRPERSON Is it possible for you to give us the death certificate so that we can make copies? MR NOMBIBA We gave the death certificate to the statement-takers. CHAIRPERSON When this policeman gave evidence he said that he shot your son because he was leading a dangerous mob? MR NOMBIBA Yes. He said that they were carrying stones. CHAIRPERSON Was he defending himself or what was happening? MR NOMBIBA He said that the reason for shooting him is that he was defending the White people in the hippos it is when he decided to shoot my son. CHAIRPERSON You say that he was defending White people who were in the hippo? MR NOMBIBA Yes, their soldiers and their police. CHAIRPERSON They had weapons, guns with them? MR NOMBIBA Yes. CHAIRPERSON They were being protected from children who had stones? MR NOMBIBA Yes. CHAIRPERSON How old was your son? MR NOMBIBA At that time he was 19 years old. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR NOMBIBA But as I am reading in the newspapers they say that he was 15 years old, I think they just assumed, I know that he was 19 years old. CHAIRPERSON Because he's your son? MR NOMBIBA Yes he was my son, I was surprised that they just assumed, they did not consult me. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sandi? MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Tsili and Mr Nombiba, I can see that you are old people and I believe that old people are wise, under all the circumstances you have just explained to us, the incidents that happened to you as these two families, do you have anything to give us, or do you have any advice to give to the government to make sure that such incidents are not going to happen again, that the police are there to protect people, they are not there to kill children and women, do you have anything to say concerning this Mr Tsili and Mr Nombiba? MR TSILI According to my view I believe that a killer must be killed because he is able to kill a person he has to be killed, he is able to kill human beings, not animals. There is nothing else I can think about a killer. He has to be killed as a law has to be passed because I don't have a wife today. I have to support my children. I have to help myself. Because I don't have a wife I have to prepare food for myself. There is nobody preparing food for me because those who were in government at the time killed my wife. Even today when my wife's name is mentioned I feel pain in my heart. MR NOMBIBA This is very difficult because the government is trying to reconcile people although these people have done all these bad things to us we are injured, we have wounds inside because of what they have done to us as Black people, they were killing us, but there is a law passed by the government, the government doesn't want revenge, and this is very difficult. My request is that as the government doesn't want revenge these people have to be arrested, have to be put in jail. MR SANDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Let me start with you Nomangesi. Your mother passed away. She was trying to protect you. I thank you for coming here today to come and testify. We hope that this will remain in your mind that your mother sacrificed her life to protect you. I want to thank your father. He said harsh words, but I think that he is an example of men, he is the father who showed that although his wife passed away he can raise his seven children. I can see that this incident affected him. As we are looking in his face it is clear that he was injured inside. It is easy for us, as we are sitting here at the table to talk about reconciliation and forgiveness because we did not experience what you have experienced. But we want to salute him and to give him respect because he lost his wife. You were still very young. He managed to try and raise you so that you can be where you are today. To you Mr Nombiba we would like to thank you. You said something, I think it is very painful, that children did not tell us about their involvement. We found that many parents are not aware whether their children died as heroes because at that time you couldn't go home and tell your parents what you were involved in. You did not want them to expect you to be shot and to be in jail. I think this is one of the important things in this Commission that old people like you, at last they would find the truth, the truth about the struggle of their children, because they did not tell them what was happening. What is important to me is that maybe the Commission will give out a report that will help you to go to your children's graves, to talk to your children that you were not aware that they were fighting for their country, so that you can salute them. We thank you for your testimony. We promise that what you have given us will be looked at, especially the two different views you mentioned about this reconciliation. You may sit down, thank you.