hrvtrans QUESTIONS, SUBMISSIONS AND ANSWERS, LOUIS FERDINAND COETZEE 1997-02-18 GUGULETU 7 2 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55158&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/gug/coetzee.htm ADV NTSEBEZA The next evidence we will be calling is that of Detective Inspector Louis Ferdinand Coetzee. Inspector Coetzee welcome to this proceedings and before you testify I will again ask advocate Potgieter to swear you in. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Baie welkom, kan u, u volle name vir die rekord gee asseblief. MNR COETZEE Louis Ferdinand Coetzee Edelagbare. LOUIS FERDINAND COETZEE verklaar onder eed ADV POTGIETER Baie dankie, sit gerus. ADV NTSEBEZA I take it that you are going to proceed as the other witnesses have - you are going to read your statement into the record, is that correct? MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja - mnr die Voorsitter. ADV NTSEBEZA Go on. MNR COETZEE En ek het alreeds dit oorhandig aan [onduidelik] ADV VAN ZYL ADV NTSEBEZA I would like that to be done for the completeness of the record in that regard sir. MNR COETZEE LEES SY VERKLARING VOOR LOUIS FERDINAND COETZEE verklaar in Afrikaans onder eed. Polisiediens en verbonde aan die Teen-Korrupsie-eenheid, Wes-Kaap en gestasioneer te Bellville. 2. Gedurende Maart 1986 was ek verbonde aan die Moord- en Roof-eenheid en gestasioneer te Bishop Lavis. Op 2 Maart 1986 het ek opdrag ontvang om saam met Direkteur Kleyn, ook verbonde was aan die Moord- en Roof-eenheid, op 3 Maart 1986 om 3:00 te rapporteer by die Honde-eenheid te Wingfield. Van wie die opdrag gekom het, kan ek ongelukkig nie meer onthou nie. handgranaat na ons gegooi het nie, sou daar geen bloedvergieting of enige verlies aan menselewens gewees het nie. Met die optrede van die persoon met die handgranaat was dit duidelik dat hy van voornemens was om ons drie noodlottig te beseer en indien daardie handgranaat in of naby die motor geval het, sou ons insittendes geen kans op oorlewing gehad het nie. teenwoordigheid gepleeg het, was my hele optrede daarop gemik om hom te arresteer terwyl hy ontvlug het, en was daar geen ander manier om sy vlug te stuit nie. Behalwe voormelde, het ek geen ander opset of bymotiewe gehad nie. 6. Ek het dit nie nodig geag om die Waarheidskommissie vrywillig te nader nie, aangesien ek by geen growwe skendings van menseregte of dade of misdrywe met enige politieke oogmerke betrokke was nie. Ek was ook op geen stadium in my polisieloopbaan verbonde aan die destydse Veiligheidspolisie nie. Ek is reeds vir die afgelope 22 jaar verbonde aan die Speurdiens en as sulks gemoeid met die ondersoek van gewone kriminele sake. ADV NTSEBEZA Are you now going to read the statement that you made in 1986 [indistinct] MNR COETZEE MNR COETZEE LEES SY VERKLARING VOOR LOUIS FERDINAND COETZEE verklaar in Afrikaans onder eed. Polisie verbonde aan die Moord- en Roof-eenheid en gestasioneer te Bishop Lavis. 2. Op Maandag, 3-3-1986 om 03:00 het ek vir diens aangemeld te Wingfield Honde-eenheid saam met Kaptein Kleyn en Speurder Adjudant Offisier Bothma en rapporteer by Majoor Odendal. Aldaar was ons toegespreek deur Majoor Odendal. 3. Die bespreking het gehandel oor inligting wat ontvang is dat 4. Hierdie observasiepunt het ons beman tot ongeveer 07:25 waarna ons in opdrag van Majoor Odendal ons onttrek het. Die onttrekking het gevolg aangesien die polisie Kombi vir wie die lokval na bewering sou gestel wees, sy bestemming bereik het. Tot op daardie tydstip het daar geen aanval plaasgevind nie. 7. Ek het die voertuig ongeveer 15 - 20 meter voor die persone diens geweer. Ek het opgemerk dat drie van die swartmans in die rigting van die bosse hardloop. Ek het drie skote in die rigting van die voortvlugtendes gevuur. Ek weet egter nie of enige van die skote iemand getref het nie aangesien daar toe baie geweer vuur was en ek genoodsaak was om plat te val. Dit was onmoontlik om te bepaal wie daar in my rigting geskiet het. 9. Toe die geweer vuur gestaak is, het ek teruggekeer na my voertuig daarin geklim en na die N2 Nasionale Pad gery. Al daar het ek op die treinbrug stelling ingeneem en die bosse onder observasie gehou waar die verdagte swartmans ingehardloop het. Later het ek oor die radio gehoor dat die verdagtes almal opgespoor is. Ek het teruggekeer na die handgranaat toneel en my weer by Kaptein Kleyn aangesluit. 10. Ek het op die swartmans gevuur omdat dit onbekend was ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairman I believe that these statements have already been handed in to the Commission. ADV NTSEBEZA I would assume so [indistinct] I would suggest that this should be a convenient stage to take the tea adjournment and we should adjourn until quarter past eleven. MNR COETZEE Waar sit ek die ding af? MEETING ADJOURNS FOR TEA</B> ON RESUMPTION ADV NTSEBEZA Finish up gentleman - thank you. Now Inspector Coetzee I must remind you that you are still under oath - Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela will ask you questions - will lead questions - Pumla. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Please excuse the delay - thank you Chairperson - good morning again Mr Coetzee. MR COETZEE Good morning. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Could you tell us what you mean by a Schedule 1 offence? MR COETZEE Say again. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Could you tell us what you mean by a Schedule 1 offence? Do you want me to repeat the question? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Murder, rape, robbery, attempted murder - so if a - in this cases there are firearms involved, what happens, what happens around the Schedule 1 offence? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes but in terms of the investigation what would happen normally with a Schedule 1 offence? MNR COETZEE Nee ek verstaan nie die vraag nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA In what way Mr Coetzee? MNR COETZEE Wel [intervention] MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Let us assume that it is serious and firearms were used, what do you do? MNR COETZEE Wel as ek die ondersoeker is, ek sal alles daar notuleer wat ek nou waarneem daar op die toneel. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And what do you do with the firearms that are found at the scene? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA When would you submit them as Exhibits if you are the investigating officer? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA In other words immediately after you - after the scene of the incident? MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And after you submit them where would they go? MNR COETZEE Ja afhangende waar die voorval plaasgevind het - as hulle dit bepaal by hierdie voorval van Guguletu - dan verwag ek dat die Bewysstukke sou by Guguletu se bewysstukkamer ingehandig gewees het. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And what about further investigations about just the types of firearms that were used and everything, where would that go? MNR COETZEE Ja nadat dit ingehandig is as Bewysstukke word daardie vuurwapens weer in ons taal getrek en dit word versend aan die Forensiese Laboratorium om deur Vuurwapendeskundiges nagegaan te word. En hulle sal hulle verslae uitbring omtrent die toets van hierdie wapens. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And does this include spent cartridges and unspent cartridges? MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you - do you know who investigated this case - this particular case - the Guguletu 7? MNR COETZEE Ek glo dit was daardie tyd Majoor Brits. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Which department did he come from? MNR COETZEE Hy was ook verbonde aan die Moord- en Roof-eenheid te Bishop Lavis. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And that is associated with your department? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But the operation was run from you department? MNR COETZEE Die ondersoek [intervention] MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA The investigation yes. MNR COETZEE Die ondersoek na die voorval ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Could you describe to us the scene at Guguletu after the shooting, just describe to us what you saw after the shooting had been completed. MNR COETZEE Na watter skietvoorval verwys u nou? MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am referring to the Guguletu shooting - the entire shooting when everything was - had died down when the shooting had stopped, I just would like you to describe to us what you saw. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA You saw bodies lying around - I really just want a - at the present moment just a visual image of what was happening you saw bodies lying around - guns strewn all over, grenades flying all over the place, just a picture - just a general picture, this is what I am asking about at the moment. Did you see guns lying around bodies lying around - what did you see? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA With that one firearm so according to police procedure that firearm would obviously have been handed in with the ammunition that was in it and the ammunition that was lying around. MNR COETZEE Ek veronderstel so. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Would it surprise you if we told you that in fact the firearms were not - the firearms that were found at the scene were not submitted on the same day and were submitted several days after the [indistinct] - would it surprise you? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA The firearms according to the record we have were submitted only on the 26th of March, everything that was found there was submitted on the 26th of March and not on the same day so it is surprising and one wonders what was happening to this Exhibits before then. So in your knowledge of police procedure this should have been submitted on the 3rd of March and not later. MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I want to ask you a bit about the preparation of the meeting of the - of the operation - your operation. Do you remember which departments were at the meeting of the night - the morning - early morning of the 3rd of March, which department were involved in that meeting? MNR COETZEE Ja afgesien van ons drie van Moord- en Roof was Majoor Odendal met sy eenheid daar gewees en Luitenant Liebenberg - en Sersant Bellingham en sover my kennis strek [intervention] MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Could I - could I interrupt please could you - could you also mention which departments these men came from please - you started with Odendal - just for the record to say which department he came from. MNR COETZEE Ja daardie tyd was hulle die - ek dink hulle het hulle self genoem die Onluste-eenheid. En Luitenant Liebenberg en Bellingham sover my kennis gestrek het, was verbonde aan die Veiligheidspolisie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA The Security Police in Pretoria. MNR COETZEE Bellingham is van die Veiligheidspolisie in Pretoria en Liebenberg van die plaaslike - of van Kaapstad Veiligheidspolisie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So Bellingham was from the Section C-1 of the Security Branch in Pretoria. MNR COETZEE Wel ek weet net hy van Veiligheidstak in Pretoria, watter afdelings of eenheid wat hulle hulself noem, weet ek nie - dis nie - dra nie kennis daarvan nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So you just knew that they were from Pretoria and Liebenberg was from Cape Town. MNR COETZEE Ja ek het net geweet Bellingham was van Pretoria en Liebenberg was plaaslik. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And who else was at that meeting - which you - could you continue please. MNR COETZEE Nee. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Which other department was represented in that Unit? MNR COETZEE Nee ek dink dit was al gewees. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA In other words yourselves. Your departments as well. MNR COETZEE Ja die drie afdelings wat ek genoem het ja. MNR COETZEE The three departments which I mentioned. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA We have information that there was one black person who was at that meeting, do you remember what his name was? MNR COETZEE Ek kan dit nie onthou nie, ek dra nie kennis van so iemand wat daar was nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Nee ek kan dit nie onthou nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And if he was present at that meeting would you have remembered? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I believe a presence of a black person is quite [indistinct] especially if there is just one of them present at a meeting. Is it really that difficult for you to remember a black person who is in the mist of white people in a - such an important meeting. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Mr Coetzee the idea of a early morning meeting especially 2:30 am is certainly not common occurrence, I am sure even in your service as a police officer. So I am not sure that I agree with you that it was common occurrence to - to have been in die presence of a singular black person in such a meeting. That was a particular meeting. MNR COETZEE So dit sal nie my aandag spesiaal op hom gevestig het nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Do you remember who was present at that meeting you just gave me names of people who were present, you seem to remember that fairly well. MNR COETZEE Hoekom ek [intervention] MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Die name wat ek vir u gegee het onthou ek omdat hulle ons toegespreek het. Wie die ander persone was wat op die vergadering was, weet ek nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA How big was this meeting Mr Coetzee? MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie hoeveel persone teenwoordig was nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Can we just talk about estimates, were there ten men - I assume there were no women - were there ten men - were there five - just approximately how many? MNR COETZEE Nee ek kan nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Your description of the grenade incident, has been consistent, you remembered that quite well, at least certain parts of your memory seem to be in tact and we pleased about that. We will reply on those in tact parts for the rest of the questioning. Do you know a person known as - called Sergeant Mbelo? MNR COETZEE Nee. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I agree and I think that if I were in your position and I was told that my life was in danger, I would have known who is with me to help me make sure that my life is in tact and if my life is protected I would remember who of my colleagues were there. ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairman [intervention] MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But I accept that you have forgotten and I will not [indistinct] any further - [indistinct] into that issue any further - you forgotten that is fine, the point I wanted to make is you seem to remember certain aspects of the events fairly well and that is quite acceptable. I will again try and - I will request you to try and remember again another name I will give to you - the name of Rudolph Lazaro - do you remember that person? Or perhaps if you could you how you got involved with Rudolph Lazaro - maybe that will make it a little bit better to explain to us, how did you get involved with Rudolph Lazaro? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am glad that you do remember even that incident. Can you tell us about it, what exactly was - how were you involved with him? MNR COETZEE Ek kan nie die datum onthou nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Ek was die ondersoekbeampte in die saak daar. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA There is some very tiny detail but very important detail that you - you remembered incorrectly - you said it had nothing to do with the Guguletu 7, but according to documents that we have in front of us, in fact it had everything to do with the Guguletu 7. And it goes on, and your signature at the bottom - before your signature it says: Ek is vertroud met die inhoud van bostaande verklaring en begryp dit. Signed by yourself on the 27th of March at Bishop Lavis police station by L Coetzee, I guess this is your number W4057840S/SERS. Now I will circulate this photographs that you refer to in your own statements, there is a Commissioner at the bottom who has confirmed that you have signed the statement. The photographs DR/704/86 and 705/86 - now DR/704 is a photograph of Themba Mlifi, who according to our map, lies on M and K. ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairman is it possible that we may have sight of that statement that was read out to the witness. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes I. ADV NTSEBEZA I thought that you had it advocate Van Zyl. ADV VAN ZYL So did I but apparently not Mr Chairman. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Now do you remember the way you, you use to sign in 1986? ADV NTSEBEZA Order - order. ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairman may the witness - may the witness have an opportunity to read this statement please. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Sure - go ahead - you may. ADV VAN ZYL Thank you. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Do you remember that to be your signature? MNR COETZEE Dit is heeltemal reg Edelagbare - dit is my persoonlike verklaring gewees. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So now it turns out that Rudolph Lazaro did have something to do with the Guguletu 7. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes, thank you - could you explain to us what happened if you could perhaps just explain a bit more how you came to make that statement. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So Mr Lazaro identified those pictures - where are the others - are they still there. ADV NTSEBEZA So I will kindly again have to ask all individuals including myself to make sure that their cell phones are switched off. And I would like the orderlies to be watchful for people who interrupt these proceedings with their cell phones. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So did you take to him this two photographs or did you take other photographs as well? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Is it possible for you to indicate perhaps in your statement my grasp of Afrikaans is limited but can you indicate in your statement where you say that you brought him to your office to show him the photographs. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I just want us to have an understanding - just to understand the sequence of events. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Dit is [intervention] MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA At least you say that in your statement anyway. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And you stand by your statement - it is your sworn and signed statements. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA In other words Lazaro did confirm with you that these other men who robbed him [tussenbeide] MNR COETZEE Heeltemal korrek ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Can I remind you again that you are under oath, so this is your - this is your signature and this is what you said and Lazaro did indicate to you these men did rob him. MNR COETZEE [Geen hoorbare antwoord] MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Just for the record, the two men referred to here - photograph DR/704/86 refers to the person lying on L/K and that is Mlifi and 705/86 is Zabonke Konile who is lying on G/F just for the record. So those two people Mlifi and Konile according to yourself and according to signed statements of the 27th of March, were identified by Rudolph Konile as having been the man who robbed him. And this was used as an Exhibit, this was handed in as part of an Exhibit. Do you remember where this was handed in, what inquest - which inquest was this handed in, your Exhibit, this statement - the one that we just passed to you. Where was it submitted? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA To confirm your statements - I am going to read a statement signed by Lazaro on the 7th of November - do you have this copy of this statement signed by Lazaro 7th November 1996. Can you find it for him please. ADV VAN ZYL MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Now this is signed by Lazaro himself to probably support your statement. Lazaro says here that: Signed R Lazaro. Now you are the Commissioner of Oath and you certified that this is the correct statements by Lazaro. And this is signed on the 27th of March 1986 and you are the Commissioner. I just want to make sure that this is your signature again that and this is the statement that Lazaro made as we have read it according to your own signature as a Commissioner of Oath, I just want to confirm that this is it. MNR COETZEE Dit is korrek ja Edelagbare - ag mnr die Voorsitter. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So would you say that statement corroborates what you - the statement that you yourself made before - the statement that we read before? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Oh! sorry maybe second language problems. But anyway this is your signature here as the Commissioner of Oath. Now Mr Coetzee last year in November of 7th of 1996, our investigators went to Mr Lazaro and in fact Mr Lazaro at a public hearing gave a statement - without saying much about why he said I will read what - some of what he said. I will read what - some of what he said at a public hearing held at the offices of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Cape Town on 106 Adderley Street. Now he starts off by saying I hereby [intervention] ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairman I am sorry to interrupt, but is it possible that, that document can be placed before the witness. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Can I just read, you will get a copy is it all right? Okay you will be given an extract advocate Potgieter has just consulted with me, but I will read - you will get the document, parts of the documents. I think I will leave that to [intervention] ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairman am I to understand then that the statement or that document will be read to the witness and he will not be afforded the opportunity to check it on record. ADV NTSEBEZA Let me think about what ruling I must give to that advocate Van Zyl. ADV VAN ZYL Thank you Mr Chairman. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA In the meantime can I go ahead and read this extract. ADV NTSEBEZA Yes you are entitled to read the extract that you want. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I will just - thank you - I will just state that Mr Lazaro came to the public hearing last year and this is his written statement. He states in English: I state in English under oath that the following statement made by me and submitted to the TRC is both true and correct. He reports the kinds of items that went missing and he goes on to say that: Several weeks later that same month I was fetched from my house by some white detective from Murder and Robbery Units and taken to Bishop Lavis police station. At Bishop Lavis police station I was shown several photographs of persons who had been brutally shot. I informed the officers that I could not identify any of the persons on the photographs due to the fact that they were so badly shot up. There was no way I could identify these people. I did identify two persons from the photograph that I always saw in Guguletu but they were not involved in the robbery, I only saw them at the shebeens. Now we have - we - he says further on that: I was shown a copy of a signature which had my name and details below. In other words he was shown by the TRC investigators. I scrutinised the signature and informed the investigators that this is not my signature. I also informed them that I was not even aware that the statement had been used in any court proceedings. It is my hope that the TRC will clear my name if this fraudulent statement with a forged signature was used to commit a criminal act. Now we would please ask you to enlighten us as to these contradictions between what you signed in March 27th and what you say Mr Lazaro signed in March 27th 1986 and what Mr Lazaro says to the Commission and said in a public hearing last year. Could you please enlighten us. MNR COETZEE So ver dit my aangaan, is dit wel mnr Lazaro wat daardie verklaring onderteken het, dit is in sy handtekening. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am sorry the Chairperson interrupted could you repeat what you said please. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So you stand by your statements and you stand by what you said to the Commission and are you suggesting therefore that Mr Lazaro lied at a public hearing last year at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission? MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Volgens my ja, want hy het daardie verklarings in my teenwoordigheid onderteken. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA ADV VAN ZYL ADV NTSEBEZA Yes a copy of he statement that is being referred to is being made at the present moment. ADV VAN ZYL Is it also possible that [intervention] ADV NTSEBEZA ADV VAN ZYL Is it also possible that a copy of the November statement can be made. ADV NTSEBEZA That is the statement that is being referred to. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Mr Khoisan is going to pass the statement on to you - just give him the statements. ADV NTSEBEZA MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA ADV NTSEBEZA May I just indicate that we are not pretending to be handwriting experts, nor are we calling upon you to pretend to be any. I think what we are trying to do is to ask I think the witness is being asked to make an prima facie observation of the two signatures and to make a comment thereon. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA What is your comments Mr Coetzee? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA The other scenario is that Mark Killian who is a Commissioner and an investigator in the Truth Commission is lying and that Mr Lazaro did not come to sign the document that Mark fabricated the statement. Another scenario is that Mr Lazaro may be lying to us all. Now I am not sure what it is and it stands to us to establish which one of this versions is true, what is worrying though is that your statements was used as part of an investigation in which these men died - in particularly in relation to the matter of Mlifi and Zabonke Konile they implicated - they died - you linked them to an ordinary -to a criminal offence and you used that evidence in court. ADV VAN ZYL MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Can I - sorry [intervention] ADV NTSEBEZA ADV VAN ZYL As you please Mr Chairman. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Mr Coetzee. MNR COETZEE Wel ek bly staan daarby dat dit is mnr Lazaro wat daai verklarings onderteken het, ek kan niks verder byvoeg nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Perhaps to - in a way comment on the - on the questions raised by council - one of the more oppressing matters I think is that if it is true and we know that our investigators did go to Mr Lazaro and further Mr Lazaro did appear at a public hearing and some of these people present here, were present at that public hearing and Mr Lazaro stated publicly that he never signed the documents, he never even knew that the matter of his robbery was used in this case. So those questions are concerning us, I mean what kind of evidence was led when this - when the findings on this matter were debated - what kind of evidence and if Lazaro comes to the Commission and says publicly he never came - he never signed a document - he never signed a statement, he did not even know that this case was linked to the Guguletu 7 and in fact very clearly remembers, he says in his statement I vividly remembered the incident and in no way did I identify Mlifi and Zabonke Konile, as the two men who were at the robbery scene and in fact I did not identify Konile as the man who pointed the gun on my stomach. You were in the vehicle, if you could point on the map - you were in the vehicle with Bothma and Kleyn, you said you arrived at the scene at 7:25 is that right? MNR COETZEE Nee mnr die Voorsitter om 7:25 vm was die operasie afgelas gewees. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA At 7:35 it was called off. MNR COETZEE In my verklaring van 14 Oktober 1986 in paragraaf 4. Hierdie observasiepunt het ons beman tot ongeveer 7:25 waarna ons in opdrag van Majoor Odendal ons onttrek het. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So at what stage did that report come at about 7:00 - about 7:25 is that what you said? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Do you remember any other police cars that were there at the scene at the time, other police vehicles when you arrived - at the time you arrived - were there any other police vehicles? MNR COETZEE Is dit nou voor die skietery of na die skietery? MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA No I am talking about when you arrived, when you arrived at the scene before as you arrived - what other police vehicles were there? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So you were the only people at the scene - your vehicle with Kleyn and Bothma, you were the only vehicle there. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie - na die voorval het ek gesien hulle voertuig staan so skuins getrek in die kruising van NY1 en NY111. Dit is die voertuig wat op die sketsplan gemerk is as H. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Ek het dit nie gesien nie ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA You did not see Bellingham at the scene at all? MNR COETZEE Na die voorval het ek vir Bellingham gesien. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA After the shooting. MR COETZEE After. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And was it parked in that place on the map marked A is that where you saw it? MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes I - that has been established, I just wanted to find out whether you do remember the vehicle there, so you remember but you only saw it after the shooting. And what about the other Kombi, the other police Kombi, the other police Kombi on the place marked J on the map? Do you remember seeing that vehicle? MNR COETZEE Na die skietvoorval ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So all these vehicles you started seeing them after the shooting, but did you know that Bellingham was driving the vehicle marked A on the map - or at least that was his vehicle whether -whoever was driving it, do you know that it was [tussenbeide] MNR COETZEE Nee. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Nee mnr die - nee mnr die Voorsitter. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But did you know who was in that vehicle - who were in that vehicle? The people who were in it? MNR COETZEE Nee mnr die Voorsitter. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA What about the vehicle marked J - did you know who was in that vehicle? MNR COETZEE Nee ek - ek weet nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But [tussenbeide] MNR COETZEE Nee - nee ek het nie geweet nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA You just knew that it is a police vehicle? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Toe ek die voertuig - toe ek die voertuig gesien het, toe was daar niemand in die voertuig nie, die eerste maal. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA The vehicle marked J - there was no-one in it. MNR COETZEE Ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But you saw the vehicle marked H and you knew what vehicle it was. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Oh! the one that was described to yourselves. MNR COETZEE Is dit nou J of wat? MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA No I am talking about H. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA What I am asking is - you knew that this is the vehicle that was your target. MNR COETZEE Maar ons [intervention] MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am really just asking you know sort of basic questions, I mean this was your target and you knew about it, you were told when you were in the planning meeting that this is the - this is your target, this is really just what I want to establish. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Vehicle is the -I am sorry maybe the translation said car, but vehicle is really fine, it includes Kombi as well so this - you do remember you were told about that. When did you hear about the arrival of your targets, these men that you were looking for, when did you hear about them over the radio? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am sorry to interrupt you sir, I really just wanted to know at what you were there, you told us that you were at the scene, when you were at the scene, when did you hear that these men had arrived. We have been told that there was voice that came over the radio that you were told that these men had arrived at what point - was it when you were parked at that point where are you marked on the map? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So do you know who gave this information over the radio? MNR COETZEE Nee mnr die Voorsitter. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Nee mnr die Voorsitter. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Nor did you know that Sergeant Mbelo was attached to the Security Branch Units - Section C-1 then called in Pretoria. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But you heard the voice over the radio. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA We heard information that Sergeant Mbelo gave the message over the radio that this men had arrived, but maybe there were two people who gave the information, or maybe Mbelo gave it over to an Afrikaans person and they both [indistinct] at different times. None the less, the informers that were driving the Kombi with these seven men, you - are you saying that you did not know that you had informers. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Did they tell you what colour the informers were? MNR COETZEE Dis korrek, hulle het gemeld dit sal twee swart persone wees. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Did you know that one of the informers was driving this Kombi? MNR COETZEE Nee. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Would it surprise you if I told you that we have information that one of the informers was driving this Kombi. MNR COETZEE Dis baie moontlik ek kan nie kommentaar lewer daarop nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie wat die beplanning was omtrent hulle bewegings nie, ek was nie daarby betrokke nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So when you say these police - whom are you talking about? If you say these police it was known that these police kept to themselves, whom are you talking about? MNR COETZEE Ek verwys na die Veiligheidspolisie. Hulle het nie almal ingelaat by hulle beplanning nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But in this case they did allow you into their planning, because you said to them on the night, on the early morning of the 3rd of March. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But if you say these police always kept things secret - how would you have known what their background is like? MNR COETZEE Maar ek weet nie wat hulle agtergrond is nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And you would not have known. MNR COETZEE Ek weet nou nog nie presies alles nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I think I will leave it with just one last question - just the Units that these police came from, the Security men from Pretoria, there seems to be - to have been an enigma about them, just judging about the way you refer to them as these people - these police did not let you in to their secret. What did you know about this people - I mean did they came from a mysterious Unit - what was it that they were secretive about? MNR COETZEE Mnr die Voorsitter ek kan my nie in laat oor hulle bewegings en goed nie, ek het nie kennis gedra van hulle nie, ek weet net hulle het van die Veiligheidspolisie - dis die storie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you very much. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you Pumla. Any further questions from the panel - Mary. MS BURTON Would that have been a routine procedure? MNR COETZEE MS BURTON Thank you, then the question of what you heard over the radio about identifying these people who were approaching you or had arrived in the area as the people that you have been briefed about. Can you just take us back to that, because there may have been several bits of information given over the radio. Inspector Bothma referred to what he had heard in the car radio saying those are the people who are near you. Did you hear that or did you hear something else as well? MNR COETZEE Ons al drie was in dieselfde voertuig, en wat hy gehoor het, gaan ek akkoord mee. MS BURTON And that is referring to the people who were walking towards you at that stage, the four or five people? MNR COETZEE Daardie radio spraak het plaasgevind toe ons direk langs die persone verbyry terwyl hulle aan die regterkant van die pad geloop het. MS BURTON Before you had turned around? MNR COETZEE MS BURTON I am trying to get the timing quite precisely in my mind, we know 7:20, 7:30 some of that, so would you be able to place that anymore precisely from a timing point of view? MNR COETZEE So dis in die omgewing van 7:30 - 7:35 ek is nie seker nie. MS BURTON Okay, and then the next event was that you turned back into NY111 and turned around and then there was the question of the grenade. MNR COETZEE MS BURTON And that would have been probably just after 7:30. MNR COETZEE Min of meer. MS BURTON You - you said in your - in your statement that nothing would have happened and all of this would not have occurred if that hand grenade had not been thrown. Is that correct? MNR COETZEE Volkome. MS BURTON MNR COETZEE MS BURTON And who had given the order to withdraw? MNR COETZEE Majoor Odendal. MS BURTON And you also heard that over the car radio when you - previously. MNR COETZEE Dis korrek. MS BURTON Thank you - thank you Mr Chairman. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you Mary. Glenda Wildschut. GLENDA WILDSCHUT Could you explain to us please why it is that your statement which you read into the record this morning, was made on the 14th of October 1986. MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie Edelagbare, ek was nie die ondersoekbeampte in die voorval nie, van die skietery by - daar by NY1 en NY3 nie. Waarom my verklaring sewe maande na die tyd geneem is, weet ek nie hoekom dit gedoen is nie. GLENDA WILDSCHUT MNR COETZEE Nee ek weet nou nie wat word bedoel by dek nie - ek het my verklarings afgeneem sover dit my aangaan - my saak aangegaan het. GLENDA WILDSCHUT Yes I understand that, but there is a link between the matter that you involved with and the Guguletu 7 matter and there is a whole lot of activity - administrative activity around this case and you were present. But you make your statement several months after the event, is that what normally happens, that statements of this nature are made so long after the event? MNR COETZEE Indien het ek nie - asook die vorige getuie hierso mnr Bothma se verklaring was ook daardie tyd geneem. En ons het dit vreemd gevind, want ons was darem lelik betrokke in die voorval daarso. GLENDA WILDSCHUT MNR COETZEE MNR COETZEE GLENDA WILDSCHUT MNR COETZEE GLENDA WILDSCHUT And could that have been because there was now a court inquiry and after the fact you were asked to make a statement? MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie. GLENDA WILDSCHUT Could I appeal to you as a senior police officer and just to give the panel an idea of whether this is in keeping with normal procedure, just - can I just hear from you whether it - it is not in keeping with normal procedure for a statement of this importance to be made several months after the event, or is it possible that this routinely happens. I am appealing to you now as a senior police official and I am asking you in that capacity whether it is something which is rather strange that an event of this magnitude is - you are questioned about it only several or you are asked to make a statement only seven months after it, just a police officer. MNR COETZEE Mnr die Voorsitter indien ek die ondersoekbeampte was in daardie saak, sou ek gepoog het om ten minste die volgende dag of die daaropvolgende paar dae alle verklarings van persone teenwoordig op daardie toneel te gaan kry het. GLENDA WILDSCHUT So this is not in keeping with normal procedure? MNR COETZEE Baie beslis nie Edelagbare. GLENDA WILDSCHUT ADV NTSEBEZA Advocate Potgieter. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson I will be as brief as possible. Mnr Coetzee net om bietjie terug te kom u was gevra oor die samestelling van die groep polisiemanne - polisiebeamptes wat betrokke was by die voorval en u was gevra of daar enige swart polisiebeamptes deel uitgemaak het van die groep polisie wat opgetree het die betrokke dag. Nou by die samesprekings die oggend van die kant van Moord- en Roof, was dit net die drie van u, u Kaptein Kleyn en mnr Bothma. MNR COETZEE Dis reg ja. ADV POTGIETER Julle is al drie blanke [tussenbeide] ADV POTGIETER Blanke lede. MNR COETZEE Dis reg mnr die Voorsitter. ADV POTGIETER Ek aanvaar daar was op daai stadium swart lede van die Moord- en Roof? MNR COETZEE Ja daar was swart lede verbonde. ADV POTGIETER Het dit u - het dit vir eienaardig opgeval dat dit die drie van u - die drie blanke mans is wat Moord- en Roof se belange waardig. MNR COETZEE Nie eintlik nie Edelagbare - mnr die Voorsitter. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Van die Moord- en Roof-eenheid? ADV POTGIETER Korrek. MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Maar as ek u korrek [tussenbeide] MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Het dit vir u snaaks opgeval? MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Het u navraag gedoen daaromtrent waarom dit [tussenbeide] MNR COETZEE Nee - nee ek het nie. ADV POTGIETER Waarom dit nodig is dat daar net blanke lede van Moord- en Roof betrokke is. MNR COETZEE Nee ek het nie. ADV POTGIETER Kan u aan enige rede dink waarom dit sou gebeur het as ons nou terugdink aan die situasie? MNR COETZEE Nee ek weet nie, ek kan nie kommentaar lewer nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Het u getuienis gegee later in die verrigtinge wat gevolg het - die geregtelike doodsondersoek - die verhoor van mnr Tony Weaver? MNR COETZEE Ek was net by mnr Tony Weaver betrokke, maar ek was nie by die nadoodse ondersoek betrokke nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE By die Weaver saak? ADV POTGIETER Ja. MNR COETZEE Ek kan nie onthou nie. Dit is moontlik maar ek kan nie onthou nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Geen swart lede, net blanke lede. MNR COETZEE Wel ten tyde van my getuienis was ek al persoon - Kaptein Kleyn was saam met my - ek weet nie van ander lede wat daar betrokke was nie. Ek het agterna gehoor Superintendent Sterrenberg was ook daar betrokke en wie die ander - of daar nog getuies was, weet ek nie. ADV POTGIETER So al wat u gehoor het, het verband gehou met blanke lede wat getuig het. MNR COETZEE Dis reg ja, wat ek van geweet het. ADV POTGIETER Goed. ADV NTSEBEZA I am in a bit of a dilemma, I believe one or two of my colleagues would like to put further questions, but I have a half past one appointment in Town. And I would therefore request that you - you indulge me by allowing us to take the lunch hour adjournment at this stage and that we continue with the further examination of - of Inspector Coetzee after lunch. The matter adjourns. MEETING ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH GLENDA WILDSCHUT [indistinct] remind Inspector Coetzee that you are still under oath and I would like to ask advocate Potgieter to continue with your questioning. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. Mnr Coetzee daar is een ander aspek wat ek na wil verwys - het u gesien hoe die persoon wat later by punte L en K gevind was, hoe daardie persoon geskiet was? MNR COETZEE Dis moontlik ja advokaat ek kan nie onthou nie. ADV POTGIETER Het u enige idee gehad wie verantwoordelik was vir die skietvoorval ten opsigte van daai persoon? MNR COETZEE Op die persoon by L en K? ADV POTGIETER Ja. MNR COETZEE Nee. ADV POTGIETER Kon u op enige stadium vasstel wat eintlik daar gebeur het? MNR COETZEE Nie op daardie betrokke dag nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Ja ek het nou geluister hoe - hoe dit beskryf is hierso by die Kommissie. ADV POTGIETER Ja maar nou behalwe vir dit, het u op enige stadium kon vasstel of enige een van u kollegas op die toneel verantwoordelik was vir die skietvoorval en indien wel - wie die kollega is wat die skietwerk gedoen het daar. MNR COETZEE Nee Edele. ADV POTGIETER Het u daardie liggaam gesien terwyl u op die toneel was? MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Watter van u kollegas was by daardie persoon gewees toe u dit - toe u die liggaam sien? MNR COETZEE Wel toe ek hom daar opgemerk het was daar niemand by hom gewees nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Die een wat hier getuig het. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Dit is nou by die voertuig H en voertuig J -het u dit opgemerk op die toneel? MNR COETZEE Ek het die voertuig later gesien staan daarso ja. ADV POTGIETER En watter van die polisiebeamptes was by daai voertuig? MNR COETZEE Nee ek weet nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie. ADV POTGIETER Het u geen van die polisiebeamptes by daai voertuig gesien nie? MNR COETZEE Nee die voertuig het leeg gestaan daarso. ADV POTGIETER Het hy leeg gestaan. MNR COETZEE Ja - wel wat ek bedoel by leeg gestaan, daar was niemand binne-in hom gewees nie. ADV POTGIETER En voertuig A - het u dit gesien terwyl u op die toneel was? MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie wat was voertuig H nie. ADV POTGIETER Het u nie dit gesien nie. ADV POTGIETER Het u nie dit gesien nie? MNR COETZEE Ek ken nie daai voertuig nie. ADV POTGIETER Maar u het ook nie daardie voertuig op die toneel gesien nie. MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Op daardie spesifieke - wat hy daar aangedui is - ek weet nie - dis moontlik. ADV POTGIETER Maar u kan nie uself herinner dat u daardie voertuig gesien het nie. MNR COETZEE Ek kan nie. ADV POTGIETER Nou u het ook getuig dat u het vyf persone gesien in die pad in NY111. MNR COETZEE Dis reg ja. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Na die handgranaat gegooi is. ADV POTGIETER Ja. MNR COETZEE Het hulle in die rigting van die bosse gehardloop ja. ADV POTGIETER Hoeveel van hulle? MNR COETZEE Drie. ADV POTGIETER Drie van hulle - dit is in die bos waar die liggame later gevind was - of in daai rigting, in die rigting waar die liggame later gevind was - P, T,S,Q en R. MNR COETZEE Q/R. ADV POTGIETER In daardie rigting het die drie gehardloop? MNR COETZEE Die drie gehardloop dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER En die ander twee wat het van hulle geword? MNR COETZEE Nee ek weet nie wat het van hulle geword nie. ADV POTGIETER Waar was daai ander twee toe u hulle die laaste keer op die toneel gesien het? MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER So - so die drie was nader aan u gewees. MNR COETZEE As die ander. ADV POTGIETER En die twee was bietjie agter - agter hulle, bietjie verder van waar u was. MNR COETZEE Dis reg - my waarneming ja. ADV POTGIETER En wat het hulle gedoen, die twee nou net toe u hulle laas opmerk, het hulle gehardloop of het hulle nog gestap of wat? MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie. ADV POTGIETER Nee - nee toe u hulle laas - laaste sien op die toneel, kyk u het hulle gesien entjie agter die [onduidelik]. MNR COETZEE Dis reg ja. ADV POTGIETER Wat het hulle toe gedoen - het hulle nog gestap of het hulle al gehardloop? MNR COETZEE Wel hulle - in dieselfde rigting beweeg as wat die drie voorste gegaan het. ADV POTGIETER Gestap. MNR COETZEE Gestap ja. ADV POTGIETER En toe word die handgranaat gegooi en u sien net drie [tussenbeide] MNR COETZEE Dis die voorste drie ja. ADV POTGIETER Sien u. MNR COETZEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER Maar wat kon van die ander twee geword het? MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie, my vermoede is dat hulle heel moontlik teruggehardloop het in die rigting uit wat hulle kom - gekom het. ADV POTGIETER En hoe is dit dat u hulle nie weer gesien het nie. MNR COETZEE My aandag was vasgevang op daai persoon wat die handgranaat gegooi het. ADV POTGIETER Was hulle ver uitmekaar uit die drie en die twee? MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Ek het geglo hulle van dieselfde groep. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE In alle waarskynlikheid ja. ADV POTGIETER Het u al drie die liggame gesien wat - of laat ek dit maar liewers dan vra watter - watter liggame het u eintlik gesien na die skietery? MNR COETZEE Want na die skietery, ek het daardie liggaam L en K gesien, en dan het ek die een gesien by E en D. ADV POTGIETER Goed. MNR COETZEE Ek dink ek het die een gesien by G en F ook. En die een wat gemerk P is. ADV POTGIETER P. MNR COETZEE P ja. ADV POTGIETER So dis L en K, en G en F - E en D en P. MNR COETZEE Dit was [tussenbeide] ADV POTGIETER Dis vier. MNR COETZEE Dit was na - heeltemal na die besigheid. ADV POTGIETER Ja dis reg na die skietery. MNR COETZEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER Het u vier - vier liggame gesien. MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja - dis reg ja. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Ek kan nie onthou van hulle nie. ADV POTGIETER So u kan nie onthou van C en B, punte C en B nie en verder in die bosse - Q en R en T en S? MNR COETZEE Ek het hulle nie gesien nie. ADV POTGIETER U het nie hulle gesien nie. MNR COETZEE Nee. ADV POTGIETER Was u - was u tot by P? MNR COETZEE Dis reg ja. ADV POTGIETER Saam met wie? MNR COETZEE Saam met Kaptein Kleyn. ADV POTGIETER Net Kaptein Kleyn? MNR COETZEE Ja mnr Bothma was ook daar gewees. ADV POTGIETER Die drie van u? MNR COETZEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER Wat in dieselfde voertuig was. MNR COETZEE Dis reg ja. ADV POTGIETER Was tot by P? MNR COETZEE Ja dit was ook - wat ons by P was, was nadat ek teruggekom het van die N2 pad, toe het ek gegaan daar - gaan kyk. ADV POTGIETER O! ek sien - so u - u is eers na die brug toe soos u verduidelik het om te kyk is daar nie mense wat u sien wat weghardloop nie. MNR COETZEE Dis reg ja. ADV POTGIETER Het u vermoed dat daar is van die - ek aanvaar dit is - ten opsigte van die groep van vyf dis die enigste persone wat u gesien het op die toneel. MNR COETZEE Dis reg ja. ADV POTGIETER En het u vermoed dat van daai groep kon daar van hulle wees wat weggekom het of wat [onduidelik] MNR COETZEE Dit was my vermoede - daar in die bosse ingaan, deurhardloop ander kant toe. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Dis reg. ADV POTGIETER En het u enigeen van hulle gesien - enige iemand gesien vlug? MNR COETZEE Nee - nee ek het nie. ADV POTGIETER Niemand nie, die persoon by Punt P was hy een van die groep wat u gesien het? MNR COETZEE Dit was die persoon wat die handgranaat gegooi het. ADV POTGIETER In die groepie van drie wat voor was. MNR COETZEE Dis reg ja. ADV POTGIETER En enigeen van die ander liggame? Was enigeen van hulle deel van daai groep van vyf, of was dit die enigste lid van daai groep wat u gesien het? MNR COETZEE Ek glo u verwys na L - L/K en G/F. ADV POTGIETER Ja dis reg. MNR COETZEE Nee. ADV POTGIETER En al die ander liggame wat u gesien het, L/K, G/F, E/D. MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Hulle - hulle - volgens u rekolleksie is hulle waarskynlik nie deel van daai groep gewees nie. MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Maar wie sou daai persoon geskiet het as hy nou - as hy inderdaad deel van die vyf was? MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie. ADV POTGIETER Daar was geen ander polisiebeamptes in u onmiddellike omgewing nie, was daar? MNR COETZEE Toe die voorval plaasgevind het? ADV POTGIETER Korrek. MNR COETZEE Nie wat ek van weet nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Dis reg ja. ADV POTGIETER So as daar van die ander polisievoertuie of u kollegas in daai onmiddellike omgewing was, dan behoort u hulle mos nou op te gelet het. MNR COETZEE Ek behoort ja. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Baie moontlik gewees ja. ADV POTGIETER En dit is inderdaad waarom u na die brug toe is? MNR COETZEE Dis waarvoor ek gegaan het ja. ADV POTGIETER Is u alleen met die voertuig na die brug toe? MNR COETZEE Ek was alleen ja. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Ek kan nie onthou nie, wat ek weet is dat daai voertuie H en J het toe daar in die pad gestaan. ADV POTGIETER Was hulle al klaar daar? MNR COETZEE Hulle was daar, ek het om hulle ge - soort van gery om uit te kom. ADV POTGIETER En toe u ry was daar nog skietery of wat het gebeur? MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie - regtig. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Nee daar was - daar was beweging gewees, maar wat daar presies plaasgevind het, kan ek nie onthou nie. ADV POTGIETER Toe u - toe u wegtrek ek is jammer. MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Okay, nou net om so entjie terug te gaan toe u wegtrek van waar u was - van waar u voertuig was, was u en Kaptein Kleyn en mnr Coetzee nou klaar geskiet al? MNR COETZEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER So u het opgehou skiet en u klim in die voertuig, hulle twee bly daarso en u ry. MNR COETZEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER Brug se kant toe - nou ons weet nou u skietery was klaar gewees maar soos u beweeg het was daar nog ander skietery wat u gehoor het. MNR COETZEE Nie wat ek gehoor het nie. ADV POTGIETER Daar was geen ander skietery nie. MNR COETZEE Nee. ADV POTGIETER Het u enige skietery hoegenaamd gehoor behalwe u eie skietery? MNR COETZEE Toe ek daar op die brug gestaan het. ADV POTGIETER Nee - nee op enige stadium - kyk vandat u gestop het voor daai groep van vyf ensovoorts. MNR COETZEE Ja in die straat - o! na ons uitgespring het uit die voertuig uit. ADV POTGIETER Ja. MNR COETZEE Na die handgranaat aanvalle voorval. ADV POTGIETER Goed. MNR COETZEE En nadat ons gevuur het, was daar baie skietery. ADV POTGIETER O! daar was baie skietery. MNR COETZEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER So nadat u opgehou het toe - toe [tussenbeide] MNR COETZEE Die - in die tyd wat ons uitgegaan het, wat ek agter die kar om kom, toe moes ons platval. ADV POTGIETER Ja. MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER En toe u nou opstaan en met die voertuig ry was daar toe nog skietery of was dit toe wat [tussenbeide] MNR COETZEE Toe was dit - toe was dit stil gewees. ADV POTGIETER Toe was die skietery oor gewees. MNR COETZEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER Daar was geen verdere skietery in die hele tyd wat u nou opgery het tot by die brug en later teruggekom het nie. MNR COETZEE Ja - nee terwyl ek op die brug gestaan het, toe het daar twee skote afgegaan uit die bos uit voor my. Wie geskiet het en waarop geskiet is, weet ek nie. ADV POTGIETER So daar was twee skote in die bos? MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER In watter bos is dit - is dit in die bos hier waar in die omgewing waar P was - aan daai kant? MNR COETZEE In daai bosse ja. ADV POTGIETER In daai bosse. ADV POTGIETER Dis waar u later hulle - die liggaam P gesien het. Is in daai bos wat die twee skote afgegaan het. MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Ja. MNR COETZEE Ja in daai rigting. ADV POTGIETER Maar die twee skote het uit daai bosse uitgekom wat naby daai sand - paadjie is. MNR COETZEE Ja - ja aan die agterkant was ek van daai bosse gewees. ADV POTGIETER Was dit die enigste ander skietery wat u gehoor het? MNR COETZEE Daarso ja. ADV POTGIETER Terwyl u nou op die brug staan? MNR COETZEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER En u het later teruggekom? MNR COETZEE Ek het teruggekom daarna ja. ADV POTGIETER Maar toe is daar geen verdere skote geskiet nie. MNR COETZEE Ekskuus tog? ADV POTGIETER Toe is daar geen verdere skote geskiet nie? MNR COETZEE Nee daar was geen verdere skietery gewees nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Die vyf? ADV POTGIETER Ja. MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Westelike rigting - dis is nou - hulle het nou nader gekom na u voertuig toe - korrek? MNR COETZEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER En hulle was al - hulle was al verby die interseksie? MNR COETZEE Dis reg. ADV POTGIETER Hoe ver sou u skat was hulle al van die interseksie af? MNR COETZEE Toe ons hulle gekonfronteer het? ADV POTGIETER Dis korrek. MNR COETZEE Ek skat so 600 - 800 meter. ADV POTGIETER Omtrent 600 - 800 meter. MNR COETZEE Ek skat so. ADV POTGIETER Verby die interseksie? MNR COETZEE Verby die interseksie. ADV POTGIETER En tot op daai stadium was daar geen skietery gewees nie? MNR COETZEE Nee. ADV POTGIETER Die skietery is na die handgranaat gewees. MNR COETZEE Na die handgranaat gegooi is. ADV POTGIETER As daar of laat ek vir u so vra - het u enige wapens gesien op enige een van daai vyf persone? MNR COETZEE Het ek enige? ADV POTGIETER Wapens? MNR COETZEE Nee hulle het - hulle het met hulle hande - hulle sakke onder hulle klere geloop - dit het vir my voorgekom of hulle dit meer met hulle hande in hulle sakke loop as [tussenbeide] ADV POTGIETER Meer met die hande - dit het meer gelyk hulle loop met hande in die sakke. MNR COETZEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER En het u enige een van hulle gesien iets uithaal? MNR COETZEE Die persoon [tussenbeide] ADV POTGIETER Wapen te voorskyn bring. MNR COETZEE Die persoon wat ons die handgranaat op - gegooi het, hy het sy regterhand uit sy sak uit gebring. ADV POTGIETER Dit was die enigste persoon. MNR COETZEE Dit was die enigste persoon. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Ekskuus tog. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Ja, met die uittrek van sy hand uit sy sak uit en die bowl aksie, was omtrent een gewees. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Ja toe hulle weghardloop - ek het nie op hulle [onduidelik] - my aandag was nie op hulle gevestig nie, my aandag was op die persoon gevestig met die handgranaat. ADV POTGIETER En dit lyk asof die - die mees natuurlik ontvlugtingsroete vir die persone die vyf sou gewees het hier in die rigting van die bosse. MNR COETZEE In die bosse in gehardloop. ADV POTGIETER MNR COETZEE Ek twyfel ja. ADV POTGIETER Want hulle was te ver al verby daai interseksie gewees. MNR COETZEE ADV POTGIETER Dankie mnr Coetzee. Thank you Chairperson. GLENDA WILDSCHUT Are there any other questions - Pumla. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Ms Wildschut - good afternoon again Mr Coetzee. MNR COETZEE Middag. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Earlier on you showed us pictures I think they were DR/704 and DR/705 the ones you showed Mr Lazaro. Do you remember who took these pictures? MNR COETZEE Ek moet aanvaar dat dit is die polisiefotograaf mnr die Voorsitter. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But you found them with the investigator who was in your department? MNR COETZEE Dis korrek. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA There is a photograph there the one marked DR/704 - do you have that in front of you? MNR COETZEE Nee. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA One of the things that we see in that photograph - is a foot clad in a boot and blue pants, the bottom of a blue pants, obviously police blue pants, do you see that? MNR COETZEE Ek sien dit ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA That boot is pushed against the neck of that body that body 704 - the dead body of that victim - do you see that foot in that boot? MNR COETZEE Ek sien dit ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Ek sal nie weet nie die Voorsitter. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA What does it look like? MNR COETZEE Ek aanvaar die foto is geneem in die lykshuis aangesien daardie etiket met DR daarop dit is die etiket van - wat gebruik word by die lykshuis. So wie die persoon is wat daar trap - weet ek nie, ek was nie daar teenwoordig nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA A man is in a morgue and you are taking pictures and this is for the records - for the death register - this picture is being taken and a policeman is pushing his foot against his neck. What do you think is happening there? MNR COETZEE Ek weet nie wat daar gebeur het nie, maar vir my is dit verregaande. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR COETZEE Sy het - laat ek net weer -sy het vir my gevra oor hierdie - ek kan nie so lekker onthou nou nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes but you remember your response - it was just before lunch about an hour ago. MNR COETZEE Kan u my net herinner daaraan - waaroor die vraag gegaan het wat sy my gevra het. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Your response she was putting it to you that some of the procedures that was suppose to have been followed, during the investigation and the course of things - in the course of assessing things and collecting evidence, that certain things were not - certain procedures were not followed and she asked you if this was the proper thing to do and you - you considered that normal procedures were not followed. I am just reminding you this is what you said. I will like you to remember that this is what you said, you do remember. MNR COETZEE Ek verstaan ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Now we have a situation here where seven men are killed or are shot, and they die, and we have an investigation that you yourself have considered that was conducted in a way in which normal procedures were not followed. We have a situation where photographs of these men are taken and one of those photographs shows an outrages picture in your words - an outrages picture of a policeman pushing his foot on the neck of a dead man. And we have the image again of a Riot Squad policeman standing with a satisfied smile over a body of a dead man, what do you make of this story, of this scene, what do you make of this whole affair? MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am not asking you to comment - I really am not asking you to comment on - on the persons in the photographs - I am merely asking your opinion in the same way that you gave an opinion about the kinds of procedures that were followed - the same way that you gave an opinion about the outrageousness of the nature of that - of what that policeman whoever he is, was doing in the same way that you commented that what seems to have been the tampering of evidence that we gleamed on video material was not normal procedure. MNR COETZEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Chairperson. GLENDA WILDSCHUT Mary Burton. MS BURTON You mentioned that you hoped to see whether anybody was - tried to escape and also that you heard two shots fired. Would you be able to estimate the time that it was then? MNR COETZEE MS BURTON So there was quite a long period that elapsed between the large number of shots that were fired and then those two subsequent shots a little bit later, maybe ten minutes later. MNR COETZEE Ek skat so - ek is - gaan nie my verbind daaraan nie. MS BURTON The time that it would have taken you to get back into the vehicle to drive that distance and get out and look and so on - ja. MNR COETZEE Dis korrek. MS BURTON Okay, thank you - nothing else Chairperson thank you. GLENDA WILDSCHUT Advocate Van Zyl do you have any questions to ask your client? ADV VAN ZYL Thank you Mr Chairperson, Mr Coetzee - sorry I should keep this in Afrikaans really. MNR COETZEE Dis korrek. ADV VAN ZYL U is bekend met hierdie dokument. MNR COETZEE ADV VAN ZYL Ek wil net vir u paragraaf 2 daarvan lees: MNR COETZEE Korrek. ADV VAN ZYL Wat saam met Kaptein Kleyn was gedoen na die eerste konfrontasie? Van Sersant Coetzee is daar net verklaring A17 wat oor die foto identifikasie handel. Nou kan u net kyk na die verklaring wat vanoggend aan u getoon was en wat is sy nommer. MNR COETZEE Hy is A17. ADV VAN ZYL Is dit A17. MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja. ADV VAN ZYL Het hy nie op die toneel na die aanval op Kaptein Kleyn self ook gereageer nie en wat van Speurder Adjudant Offisier Bothma, hoe het hy opgetree - sy verklaring asseblief. MNR COETZEE Die verklaring was van my verkry na die opdrag van die landdros se versoek. ADV VAN ZYL Chairperson I believe that you are in possession of this particular document, I made enquiries during the luncheon adjournment but it is available should you require it. Paragraaf 6 van die dokument lees as volg: MNR COETZEE ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairperson I also believe that this document is in possession of the Commission as part of the inquest, the original inquest. Is dit die verklaring wat u van hom geneem het? MNR COETZEE Dis die verklaring wat ek geneem het van hom. ADV VAN ZYL En wanneer was dit geneem? MNR COETZEE Die 15de Oktober 1986 - 15:00 die middag. ADV VAN ZYL MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja. ADV VAN ZYL MNR COETZEE Dis korrek. ADV VAN ZYL GLENDA WILDSCHUT I just need to check with the staff quickly - can you look at [intervention] ADV VAN ZYL I am quite happy to hand this in. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA [indistinct] I just want to understand. GLENDA WILDSCHUT Ja we would like to have a copy of that one. ADV VAN ZYL Dankie - nou mnr Coetzee daardie verklaring is nou baie meer breedvoerig, ek verstaan - ek verstaan uit die vrae wat u vanoggend gekry het, dat mnr Lazaro blykbaar getuig het voor hierdie Kommissie, en dat hy ontken dat hy enige verklaring voor u geteken het. Ek weet nie of mnr Lazaro gekruisverhoor was nie, ek weet nie wat die aard van die getuienis is nie, maar dit is wat u mee moet saamleef. MNR COETZEE Dis korrek ja. ADV VAN ZYL Ek wil ook vir u vra na hierdie verklaring wat gedateer is 15 Oktober 1986 - is dit ook hy wat daar geteken het? MNR COETZEE Die handskrif ken ek nie. ADV VAN ZYL Is dit die - is dit u - die verklaring wat u geneem het? MNR COETZEE Dis - dis my verklaring ja. ADV VAN ZYL En waar u [tussenbeide] MNR COETZEE Dis my handtekening hierso onder. ADV VAN ZYL Ja en daar waar die deponent geteken het, wie was dit? MNR COETZEE Dit was mnr Lazaro wat daar geteken het. ADV VAN ZYL MNR COETZEE ADV VAN ZYL Desnieteenstaande wil ek tog aan u toon, die verklaring geteken op die 15de Oktober 1986 en die verklaring onderteken op die 7de van die 11de maand 1996 geneem deur die Kommissie waar die persoon tien jaar later sy handtekening gemaak het onderaan die huidige verklaring. Groot yes - sommer een vir jou ook. As u eerstens net kyk na die manier wat die Z gevorm is, het u enige kommentaar daarop te lewer? MNR COETZEE Mnr die Voorsitter vir my as leek blyk dit al drie dieselfde te wees. ADV VAN ZYL Die manier wat die Z gevorm is. MNR COETZEE Dis korrek. ADV VAN ZYL En as u kyk na die manier wat die A gevorm is, die lang eerste voet en die deursny na agter van die A self. MNR COETZEE Weer eens lyk dit vir my of dit dieselfde kan wees. ADV VAN ZYL MNR COETZEE Baie beslis ja. ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairperson I can tender the name of an independent handwriting expert I have used many time, who are held in high esteem, he is Mr Peter Horley - H O R L E Y, he lives in Johannesburg, he does a lot of work in this field for banks and international institutions - his telephone number is 011-8032822 and we invite this Commission to subject all three these statements to Mr Horley and that it be pointed out to him that these signatures are ten years - or ten years separate these two signatures and ask him for his expert opinion in the matter. Thank you I have no further questions for this witness. GLENDA WILDSCHUT Inspector Coetzee you are now excused, thank you. MNR COETZEE Dankie.