hrvtrans SUBMISSIONS, QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS, BETRAM OSWALD MOGGEE 1997-02-17 GUGULETU 7 1 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55162&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/gug/moggee.htm ADV NTSEBEZA ADV VAN ZYL ADV NTSEBEZA I have already communicated the difficulties which we have with that to advocate Uijs - we have returned communication between the two of us. ADV VAN ZYL I am sorry. ADV NTSEBEZA With the advocate that there are difficulties. Welcome today to Inspector Moggee and we will take your evidence now and before we do so I will ask advocate Potgieter to take the oath - advocate Potgieter. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. BERTRAM OSWALD MOGGEE verklaar onder eed ADV POTGIETER Baie dankie, sit gerus. ADV NTSEBEZA If you can now withdraw ladies and gentleman the media - thank you. I believe you also have a sworn statement which you would like to read into the record is that so Inspector Moggee. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. ADV NTSEBEZA Shall you then proceed after which Commissioner Wildschut will put certain questions to you before the panel does so - thank you. MNR MOGGEE READS OUT HIS STATEMENT Ek die ondertekende Bertram Oswald Moggee verklaar hiermee: Afrikaanse Polisiediens verbonde aan die OOPD Faure te Kuilsrivier. 3. Gedurende 1986 was ek verbonde aan die afdeling Onluste- eenheid vir die Westelike Provinsie, gestasioneer te Kaapstad. Op daardie stadium was ek reeds vir ongeveer 10 jaar verbonde aan die Onluste-eenheid. telefoniese oproep ontvang van een van die offisiere verbonde aan die Onluste-eenheid Majoor Odendal, waarin ek opdrag gegee is om die volgende om ongeveer 2:30 te Wingfield te rapporteer. 5. Ek het in ooreenstemming met bogenoemde opdrag by 6. Om ongeveer 5:00 het ek, vergesel deur Adjudant Offisiere Visser en Rossouw, in u ongemerkte polisievoertuig aan die onderpunt van NY111 en aan die westelike kant van NY1 stelling ingeneem. Die kruising van NY1 en NY111 was nie sigbaar van waar ons geparkeer het nie. 7. Ons was die hele tyd in radio verbinding met die ander lede 9. Ons het verby die drie mans gery. Ek het omgedraai en na 10. Ek het uit ons voertuig gespring en onder andere opgemerk 11. Hierna het ek skote agter my gehoor, omgekyk en gesien dat 12. Terselfdertyd het ek ook skote vanuit die kruising van NY1 en NY111 gehoor, maar ek het my aandag gevestig op die twee mans wat besig was om weg te hardloop. Ek het weer skote met my R1 geweer op hulle gevuur, maar hulle het aangehou met hardloop. Ek het toe gesien dat Adjudant Offisier Barnard en Sersant McMaster die twee mans agtervolg en het opgehou met vuur op hulle aangesien ek bang was dat ek Barnard of McMaster kon raak skiet. Die twee mans het toe in die bosse verdwyn. Barnard en McMaster het ook die bosse in beweeg. 13. Ek het toe in die rigting van die bosse gehardloop, maar voordat ek die bosse bereik het, het ek skote vanuit die bosse gehoor. Op daardie stadium het van die ander lede ook die bosse betree en ek het besluit om nie die bosse in te gaan nie, aangesien ek bang was dat van die lede op mekaar kon begin skiet. 14. Ek het teruggekeer na die persoon wat agter my was en wat 15. Ek het hierna waargeneem dat die liggame van verskeie 16. Heelwat later het ek skote dieper in die bos as waar ek die 17. Ek wil op rekord plaas dat ek onmiddellik nadat die ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you Inspector Moggee - Commissioner Wildschut - Glenda is now going to put questions to you - Glenda Wildschut. MS WILDSCHUT Inspector Moggee you - by your admission in the statement said that you were present at the meeting in the morning of the 3rd of March 1986 is that correct? MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS WILDSCHUT How long did that meeting last? MNR MOGGEE Ek kan nie presies die tyd onthou nie, maar dis so plus-minus twingtig minute. MS WILDSCHUT Approximately 20 minutes. MNR MOGGEE Ja. MS WILDSCHUT And that was the time that you were given the instructions and told what was going to happen within 20 minutes. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. MS WILDSCHUT What were the instructions given to you at that meeting? MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT Were you afforded the opportunity to ask any questions or clarification and to understand your mission? MNR MOGGEE Die voorligting wat ons gekry het was vir my duidelik genoeg gewees. MS WILDSCHUT So you were absolutely clear you understood exactly what it was that you had to do in the 20 minute briefing. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. MS WILDSCHUT Were the instructions to arrest or to eliminate? MNR MOGGEE Om die persone in hegtenis te neem. MS WILDSCHUT Could you for a moment turn your attention to the plan behind you and if you could just describe where you were placed - where you were and what you saw happening. MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT So you were in NY111 - you were where - on your sketch where M is - is that - is that right. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. MS WILDSCHUT Yes, and you were facing in the direction of the intersection where you see H on your sketch. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE Ek kon dit sien, maar my aandag was nie op daai rigting gespits gewees nie, by die tyd wat ons op beweeg het, het Kaptein Kleyn af beweeg en omgedraai na daai [onduidelik] naby die motor gewees wat Kaptein Kleyn [onduidelik] MS WILDSCHUT Okay so you saw the activity happening at M and N and L and K. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS WILDSCHUT Thank you - can you just describe then what happened at L and K - what was happening there? MNR MOGGEE Ja ons het in daai rigting af beweeg met die voertuig en die vierde persoon wat agter die drie eerste persone gestap het, toe ons daar stilgehou het, het hy plus-minus twee meter van ons voertuig af gaan stilstaan - en gemaak of hy water afslaan. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS WILDSCHUT Can you give me an idea of more or less where that happened on the sketch - can you perhaps point out - just tell me more or less on the sketch where that would have happened. MNR MOGGEE As dit Kaptein Kleyn se voertuig is die - dan het dit [onduidelik] regoor die voertuig gewees. MS WILDSCHUT At N. MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT Yes there is a place marked M would it be about there? MNR MOGGEE Dit is reg. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS WILDSCHUT Okay, did this explosion take place in the street on the pavement somewhere nearby where was - where was that, in the road or on the pavement somewhere? MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT And from which direction was this hand grenade launched, where did the hand grenade come from? MNR MOGGEE Dit moes gewees het van die drie persone wat by Kaptein Kleyn gestop het - so van daai drie moes die drie handgranaat gegooi gewees het. MS WILDSCHUT That is on the sketch. MNR MOGGEE Dit sal reg oor die motor wees van Kaptein Kleyn. MS WILDSCHUT Would that be L/K from that direction where L/K is. MNR MOGGEE Nee. MS WILDSCHUT Okay. MNR MOGGEE Dit was min of meer hier gewees. MS WILDSCHUT So from the bush - from the direction of the bush? MNR MOGGEE Nee dit was langs die pad gewees - want die bosse is hierso, so dit was die rigting gewees en hierso het hulle af gestap die drie - die vierde een het hier gaan stilstaan en die drie het hier afgestap in die rigting van Kaptein Kleyn se motor. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT And you saw all this happening? MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. MS WILDSCHUT And you were inside the car or outside the car - your car. MNR MOGGEE Ek was binne in die voertuig gewees en ek het oor my regterskouer by die agter venster uitgekyk. Ek was - ek wou gekyk het wat - wat was die optrede gewees van hierdie drie verdagtes by - by Kaptein Kleyn se voertuig. MS WILDSCHUT So you were watching these three persons and then the hand grenade exploded more or less over your right shoulder in that direction. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE Nee. MS WILDSCHUT I was concerned about this hand grenade because some of the pictures we saw we actually saw that the area where the hand grenade was meant to explode - quite a lot of the railings in the street you know the little poles - little wooden poles were still in tact - I wondered how a hand grenade could explode in the position you described and those poles still remain in tact. Is it possible? MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT There were also vehicles in the vicinity do you - did any of those vehicles get damaged in any way by the hand grenade. According to your description you say there was a vehicle going there and there was some vehicles there - did those vehicles get damaged when that hand grenade was launched? MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE Nee ek het nie gekyk na die voertuig nie. MS WILDSCHUT But you were - you were near to those vehicles - you were actually present there. MNR MOGGEE Ja dis ongeveer - as ek moet skat nou die afstand - was dit ongeveer plus-minus 50 meter wat ons van daai voertuig af was. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT But there was no damage to the car nearby. MNR MOGGEE Ek het nie na die kar gekyk nie. MS WILDSCHUT Okay - could you just have a look at this photograph 21 and 22 and in the area N - if you can just area N is where you described where the hand grenade exploded and next to that is a little pole - a wooden - very small wooden pole that is still completely in tact. Could you explain to us how a hand grenade can explode and that pole can still remain in tact. MNR MOGGEE Mnr die Voorsitter soos ek reeds vir u verduidelik dat elke situasie kan anderste wees. MS WILDSCHUT It can be different. MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE Dit is korrek. MS WILDSCHUT You saw that happen - did you - can you describe the sound to us. MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT Is it possible that it could have been a stung grenade? I am sure in your training you will know the difference between the sound of a hand grenade and the difference between the sound of a stung grenade. Is it possible that, that could have happened. MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT No I am not asking whether you an expert, I am asking you whether you can distinguish between the sound of a stung grenade and a hand grenade. MNR MOGGEE As ek u eerlik moet antwoord ek het nog min met dit te doen gehad, ek was nog in geringe situasies gewees waar handgranate gegooi was om die verskil vir u te gaan meedeel. MS WILDSCHUT Okay, did anyone shoot at you? MNR MOGGEE Nee. MS WILDSCHUT Did you shoot at anybody? MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS WILDSCHUT MS WILDSCHUT You - you shot at somebody. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. MS WILDSCHUT Why did you shoot? MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairman will all due respect to Ms Wildschut this is not what the witness has said, he never said that this or these persons posed a threat to him as I understand his evidence he saw that they throwing a hand grenade at Kleyn and thereafter he shot at them to - as it were prevent them from reaching the bushes. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE Mnr die Voorsitter dit was vir my duidelik gewees dat hierdie mense - dat die betrokke lede was, wat opgemerk was en dat hulle nou die aanval op Kaptein Kleyn-hulle geloods het, het ek alles probeer doen om die persone te arresteer en het ek besef indien hulle die bosse sou bereik het, dat hulle moontlik sou weg gewees het. MS WILDSCHUT So you said you tried everything to arrest them, describe to us what you did to try and arrest them. MNR MOGGEE Ek het op hulle gevuur - vier rondtes - het ek na die twee voortvlugtendes gevuur en ek het daarin ook gepoog om die twee te stop voor hulle in die bosse sou ontvlug. MS WILDSCHUT By - by firing at them. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS WILDSCHUT Did you warn them - did you ask them to stop. Did you call out to them - anything - speak to them, tell them that you going to arrest them. MNR MOGGEE Nee - nie op geen stadium nie. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT Okay. MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT Did you at any point received a description of the Vlakplaas personnel on the scene? MNR MOGGEE Nee. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE Dit was vir my duidelik gewees dat die drie wat daar afgestap het, en wat by Kaptein Kleyn se voertuig gestop het en die handgranaat gegooi het, dat hulle definitief nie van Vlakplaas was nie. Ek het aangeneem toe dat dit die aanvallers sou wees. MS WILDSCHUT How did you make that assumption - explain - just take us through the process how you made the assumption that those people were not the personnel from Vlakplaas. MNR MOGGEE Want ek glo nie ons eie mense sou handgranate na ons gegooi het nie en weggehardloop het nie. MS WILDSCHUT In your own testimony in Afrikaans you say: Would there have been any Vlakplaas personnel that you may not have recognised? MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT Could you just repeat that again please. MNR MOGGEE Die enigste persoon wat ek die oggend herken het was Sersant Bellingham gewees van Veiligheid Hoofkantoor. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT Ja. MNR MOGGEE En hierdie drie wat ons toe gesien het was te voet gewees. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE Ek het vermoed hulle was swart persone. MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT MNR MOGGEE MS WILDSCHUT Okay, and - but you subsequently heard that this was the Vlakplaas operation - I am just asking. MNR MOGGEE Nee - nee ek het nooit daarvan gehoor nie. MS WILDSCHUT You have never heard that this was a Vlakplaas operation. MNR MOGGEE Nooit. MS WILDSCHUT Okay. MNR MOGGEE Nee. MS WILDSCHUT So we can take it that you were not given a description of any of the Vlakplaas personnel on the scene. MNR MOGGEE Nee ons het geen beskrywing gehad van hoe die mense lyk nie. MS WILDSCHUT Thank you - thank you Mr Chair I have completed my questioning for now. ADV NTSEBEZA Advocate Potgieter. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER Nou maar hoekom wat wou u bereik? MNR MOGGEE My - ek was - my doel was gewees om hulle te stop voordat hulle die bosse ingegaan het. ADV POTGIETER Wou u hulle doodskiet? MNR MOGGEE Nee op geen stadium nie. ADV POTGIETER Maar hoe - waarnatoe het u gemik? MNR MOGGEE Ek het na die bene gemik. ADV POTGIETER Na die bene? MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER Met die R1. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER En wat het daai mense verkeerd gedoen? MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER Het u dit gesien? MNR MOGGEE Ek het dit gesien ja. ADV POTGIETER Wat het u gesien? MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER Het u gesien wie het dit gegooi? MNR MOGGEE Nee. ADV POTGIETER Maar u skiet na al twee die mense wat hardloop. MNR MOGGEE Dit was die drie persone wat in daai omgewing was. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER Hoekom skiet u nou na die ander twee? MNR MOGGEE Om dit moontlik een van die ander twee kon gewees het. ADV POTGIETER Moontlik - so u skiet al twee van hulle korrek? MNR MOGGEE Ek het op al twee gevuur ja. ADV POTGIETER Dink u nou dit is - dit is regverdig gewees? MNR MOGGEE Ek dink dit was regverdig gewees want ek - my doel was om die mense te verhoed dat hulle die bosse in gehardloop het, dat hulle sou vlug. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER So hiervolgens het u niemand gesien iets gooi nie, korrek. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER Maar u besluit nog steeds om die twee persone te skiet wat in die bosse in hardloop. MNR MOGGEE Dit was vir my duidelik gewees dat dit van - dit moes een van die drie gewees het, want hoekom sal hulle weggehardloop het. ADV POTGIETER Hoe weet u wat se ontploffing is dit - hoe weet u dat hulle misdaad gepleeg het. MNR MOGGEE Ek is seker Kaptein Kleyn sou nie platgeval het indien dit nie iets ernstig was nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Meneer - mnr die Voorsitter dis my waarneming. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Dis my waarneming. ADV POTGIETER U waarneming - wat was u waarneming? MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Korrek. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Ek het na die bene van die persone gemik. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. ADV POTGIETER Goed, so wat wou u doen, wou u hulle gearresteer het of wat, wat was die doel. MNR MOGGEE My doel was gewees om te verhoed dat hulle sou ontvlug. Om rede die afstand tussen my en hulle was baie wyd gewees, ek het gevoel - ek kon nie daarin slaag om hulle in te gehardloop het nie. ADV POTGIETER ADV VAN ZYL Mnr die Voorsitter met respek. Volgens sy waarneming according to his observations, a hand grenade was thrown - he saw the explosion - he say Kleyn going down, he saw the explosion, and to him - according to his observation a hand grenade was thrown by one of these three people and they started running. ADV NTSEBEZA Advocate Potgieter. ADV POTGIETER ADV NTSEBEZA Proceed. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. MNR MOGGEE Mnr die Voorsitter ek het nie presies geweet waar die mense in die bosse geplaas was nie, elke persoon was deur Kolonel Odendal uitgesit presies waar hy sou gewerk het, en toe het ons na ons tonele toe gery en hulle sou observasie hou. Ek weet nie presies wie - of daar iemand ooit in die bosse was nie. ADV POTGIETER Kom ons vergeet daarvan - weet u- wat u presies geweet het, volgens die beplanning wat u weet is volgens die beplanning die oggend, was daar juis vir hierdie gebeurlikheid voorsien dat iemand mag in die bosse in hardloop en dit is waarom daar sogenaamde stoppergroepe, ons het al soveel maal gehoor in die getuienis, stoppergroepe geplaas was onder andere in die bos, met ander woorde die toneel was omsingel gewees nie waar nie, volgens die beplanning. MNR MOGGEE Ja die stoppergroepe was die twee motors wat ek kan onthou - drie motors. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER Ja nou waarom [tussenbeide] MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER So waarom as u weet dat daar van die mense in die bosse is, waarom gaan skiet u agter die voortvlugtende mense - die twee voortvlugtende persone - waarom los u nie dit vir u kollegas om die mense te arresteer nie. MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER En toe skiet u maar. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER Wat is u kommentaar op die getuienis van mnr Hendricks. MNR MOGGEE Nee ek het slegs getuig wat ek gesien het. ADV POTGIETER Nee ek kan nie hoor nie jammer. MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER Wat u - wat u gesien het. MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Mnr die Voorsitter ek kan ongelukkig nie daarmee saamstem nie. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Ek weet nie. ADV POTGIETER Maar dit het daar by u plaasgevind. MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER Wie was die polisiebeampte wie naaste aan hom was. MNR MOGGEE Ek weet nie - geen idee nie. ADV POTGIETER Het u niemand gesien nie of het u vergeet of ken u nie die persoon nie of wat - wat is u rede. MNR MOGGEE Ek het niemand daai tyd gesien nie. ADV POTGIETER U het niemand naby daai man gesien nie. MNR MOGGEE Nee. ADV POTGIETER U het iemand gesien daar dood val. MNR MOGGEE Ek het net gesien hy val agteroor ja. ADV POTGIETER Daar het niemand ook nader na hom toe gekom nie. MNR MOGGEE Ek het toe nog weer aangegaan en twee rondtes op die voortvlugtiges gevuur voordat hulle in die bosse verdwyn het. ADV POTGIETER Ja en toe - toe sien u wie is naby die vierde persoon. MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER Toe wie is nou daar by die persoon? MNR MOGGEE Daar was niemand gewees nie. ADV POTGIETER So niemand het verantwoordelikheid aanvaar op die toneel vir daai persoon wat geskiet was nie. MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER Maar u - u weet nie, u dra nie kennis nie. MNR MOGGEE Nee. ADV POTGIETER Goed, die rewolwer wat u gesien het by die persoon waar was dit presies? MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER Op sy maag. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER Los nie by die - by die kledingstukke in nie. MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER U is seker dis waar u dit gesien het. MNR MOGGEE Ek is seker ja. ADV POTGIETER Wat beteken dit? MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER Voor op sy broek? MNR MOGGEE Ja. ADV POTGIETER Maar op sy maag ook. MNR MOGGEE Kan ek vir u verduidelik miskien. ADV POTGIETER MNR MOGGEE ADV POTGIETER So half oor die maag en oor die broek. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek. ADV POTGIETER Ek sien, los. MNR MOGGEE Dis reg. ADV POTGIETER Nie by sy broek ingesteek nie. MNR MOGGEE Nee. ADV POTGIETER Goed. Thank you Chairperson. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you advocate Potgieter - Pumla. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Chairperson - good afternoon again Mr Moggee. MNR MOGGEE Goeie middag. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA You heard on Sunday the Sunday before the incident in Guguletu that you were required at the scene at Wingfield and then to be deployed later on that morning at the scene of the events we discussing is that right. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Where were you? MNR MOGGEE Waar ek gepos was. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA No when you heard - when you were - when you received the news or rather the instruction that you have to be at Wingfield. MNR MOGGEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So you were sitting with your family at home - you must have been a worried man. MNR MOGGEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR MOGGEE Nee met Sondagaand het ek nog geen kennis gedra van wat ons opdragte gaan wees nie en waaroor die gaan nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA You only knew at Wingfield. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I was really trying to imagine a father and a husband having to get involved in something as dangerous as this, I mean it seems that it was dangerous given what we have heard from your perspective, I am just wondering how people like yourself feel when they go into this kind of operations. MNR MOGGEE Mnr die Voorsitter dit is maar deel van die polisieman se lewe daai om maar sulke gevare te trotseer, dis maar deel van ons alledaagse werk. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA At the meeting at Wingfield were there any policeman from Guguletu? MNR MOGGEE Nie wat ek ken nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA It strikes me as being a bit strange that there is an operation in Guguletu and the police at Guguletu are not involved, I wonder why. MNR MOGGEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR MOGGEE Ek dra geen kennis hoekom dit gedoen is nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA The men - policemen who were in the bus, that was suppose to be the one that was going to be attacked, now many of them were at that meeting at 2:30 am that planning meeting, how many of them from that bus? The bus that was suppose to be targeted by this seven men? MNR MOGGEE Mnr die Voorsitter wie in die bussie was, wat deurgery het na Guguletu polisiestasie toe weet ek glad nie, ek weet nie wie die insittendes was nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA You never saw the bus or are you saying you never saw the people in the bus? MNR MOGGEE MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA You have testified this afternoon that you - you attacked the men - rather you fired the shots because you saw the person launch an attack on Mr Kleyn, now again a grenade is central in the way that the events unfolded that morning and this time the hand grenade did explode, was it ever submitted as an Exhibit in court as part of the evidence? MNR MOGGEE Mnr die Voorsitter ek kan nie daaroor getuig nie, dit is die ondersoekbeampte van die toneel - dit is hulle pligte om daarna te kyk. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MNR MOGGEE Nee ek dra geen kennis of hy ooit ingehandig is nie. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you. ADV NTSEBEZA Any further questions - Ms Burton? MS BURTON MNR MOGGEE Mnr die Voorsitter as ek reg kan onthou was ons ook in kamoefleerdrag gewees. MS BURTON Thank you, and Officers Visser and Rossouw were in the car with you, is that correct? MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS BURTON And presumably you were all together at Wingfield for that briefing in the early morning. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS BURTON And you received your briefing from Major Odendal who was in charge of the whole operation. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS BURTON And I am assuming that there would have been something like that sketch plan there identifying where you were all going to be and so on. MNR MOGGEE Alhoewel ons - omrede ons die gebied geken het, waar die voorval sou plaasgevind het, is daar slegs aan ons gegee die spesifieke punt waar ons moet gaan staan, ons het presies geweet waar om te gaan staan. MS BURTON I see, and then you also received a briefing on that occasion from Sergeant Bellingham is that correct? MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS BURTON About the anticipated attack and about the fact that two informers would be in the bus and therefore you should firing on the bus - on the vehicle - whatever it was. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS BURTON We have heard other people who were at the meeting who said that they did not received any information from Sergeant Bellingham but you remember that clearly. MNR MOGGEE Dis korrek ja. MS BURTON Thank you - thank you Mr Chairman. ADV NTSEBEZA Advocate Van Zyl do you want to put any questions to the witness? ADV VAN ZYL Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions for this witness, thank you. ADV NTSEBEZA MEETING ADJOURNS TILL 18-2-97