hrvtrans SUBMISSION, QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS, JOHN MARTIN STERRENBERG 1997-02-17 GUGULETU 7 1 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55164&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/gug/sterren.htm MR NTSEBEZA The next witness is Senior Superintendent John Martin Sterrenberg. I will now ask advocate Potgieter to swear the witness in. ADV POTGIETER Good morning Mr Sterrenberg. MR STERRENBERG Good morning sir. ADV POTGIETER Welcome. MR STERRENBERG Thank you. ADV POTGIETER Thank you for having made yourself available - I am going to ask you to take the oath, for that purpose to stand please. JOHN MARTIN STERRENBERG Duly sworn states ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much you may be seated. ADV NTSEBEZA Ladies and gentleman from the press thank you - thank you. ADV VAN ZYL If I may raise one further point - I had the opportunity to read through the evidence of the three gentleman who testified last time, Kleyn, Liebenberg and Odendal. I am not sure whether this Committee is in possession of the evidence given at the inquest, I say this because it was put to some of the witnesses in particular Liebenberg that a witness and I presume that is Mr Zibaka has told this Commission that he saw a man with his hands in the air being shot twice and that this evidence is actually corroborated by the objective evidence being the post-mortem examination which indicates only two wounds on that particular body. Now at the inquest and also in his affidavit, the evidence that he gave there, was that he saw this person being shot three times after he had been thrown onto the ground and if one checks the trajectory of those bullets through the body, it simply does not corroborate - two shots - it said - he testified as to three shots to the chest which leads me and my instructing attorney to infer that this Commission may not be in possession of that evidence. And we also see on the record that Captain or he was then a Captain Kleyn was confronted with a question that there was expert evidence led at the Weaver trial that these shots were fired at point blank range, which of course is significant important evidence. But that very same expert at the inquest, not only qualified - he quite dramatically changed that evidence and there was also other evidence of other experts then led at the inquest which showed exactly the opposite. It is important we feel that, that evidence should be placed before the Commission. If the Commission is not in possession of it, we would very much like to be a prize of that fact so that we can assist in obtaining that evidence if at all possible. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you very much for your remarks. ADV VAN ZYL ADV NTSEBEZA I would assume that there is an error somewhere - I - in the light of the way in which we conduct it ourselves and we conduct ourselves - I cannot believe that a remark of that nature could have been made. ADV VAN ZYL May that be the [indistinct] Mr Commissioner. ADV NTSEBEZA Yes, thank you. ADV VAN ZYL Thank you. ADV NTSEBEZA MR STERRENBERG ADV NTSEBEZA Yes no very well - do you - would you like to read the statement into the record. MR STERRENBERG I will sir. ADV NTSEBEZA Very well then. MR STERRENBERG READS OUT HIS STATEMENT Afrikaanse Polisiediens, gestasioneer te Kaapstad. 4. Om ongeveer vyfuur het ek saam met Sersant Grobbelaar en maar was naby Majoor Odendal en sy groep geplaas. 5. Om ongeveer 7:20 het ek gehoor dat Majoor Odendal skree dat 8. Ek moet daarop wys dat my besluit om na sy kop te skiet 10. Nadat ek die drie skote met my pistool gevuur het, het daar nog 11. Ek voer gevolglik aan dat ek met my haelgeweer op die betrokke persoon gevuur het om hom buite aksie te stel sodat hy nie met die AK47 waarmee hy besig was om in NY1 af te vuur, van die makkers of onskuldige mense in die woongebied moes dood of beseer nie. Ek voer voorts aan dat ek met my pistool op die persoon geskiet het, omdat hy homself gereed gemaak het om met sy onwettige aanval voort te gaan en ek voel dat my lewe beslis in gevaar was. Ek voer gevolglik aan dat ek deurgaans in noodweer opgetree het en dat my optrede geensins wederegtelik was nie. ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairman we have the original statement here to hand in to the Commission and may I add that the affidavit that Mr Sterrenberg refers to in his statement made on the 3rd of March 1986 as well as his evidence at the trial of Mr Anthony Weaver, I believe that is in the possession of the Commission already. ADV NTSEBEZA That is so advocate Van Zyl. Thank you very much Superintendent Sterrenberg. Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela will be putting some questions to you. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you Chairperson - good morning again Mr Sterrenberg and welcome. Do you remember what you were wearing on that day of the 3rd of March 1986? MR STERRENBERG Ja I was dressed in camouflage uniform. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG That is correct Your Worship. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you very much - you referred to a meeting on the morning of 3rd of March in which you gathered together with the other police officers, could you tell us what instructions you had in that meeting, what was your planning about capturing these men? MR STERRENBERG My instructions were to form part of a stopper group kin the bush at NY111 and should anybody flea in my direction to arrest that person. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So your instructions and instructions to everyone was that the man should be arrested and not shot. MR STERRENBERG That is correct unless obviously action was taken against us and then that was left to our discretion. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But the primary motive was to capture them. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Could you tell us who you were deployed with. You mentioned in your statement that you were with Mr Odendal who else was with you in your team? MR STERRENBERG I was deployed with a Sergeant A Grobbelaar and a Sergeant Kapp in the immediate vicinity of Major Odendal. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Was there an officer named Trompie part of your team? MR STERRENBERG Yes I think he was deployed with Major Odendal. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG Theron. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Theron. MR STERRENBERG Theron. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Trompie Theron. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG As I had already said, I heard Major Odendal call out that somebody had thrown a hand grenade - I heard the explosion, virtually simultaneously I moved to the road, I saw a person running down NY111 and I heard Sergeant A Grobbelaar call that the person has a hand grenade. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Would you say this man was firing towards yourself or away from yourself? MR STERRENBERG No he was firing down NY111 in the direction of - in a southerly direction. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So you fired at him with your shotgun from a distance? MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Sort of chasing him. MR STERRENBERG Following him yes. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA At what stage did he fall to the ground on - at what point of your shooting did he fall to the ground. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And he fell down, would you say he fell down from the first time you shot him or [intervention] MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA At what part of his body do you think you were firing the shots seven shots before he fell down. MR STERRENBERG It was a shotgun and I was firing in his general direction. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG Ja it would be more from the side than from the back. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So you firing seven shots from his side and he is running and firing a gun away from you. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And he is not falling. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So but the seventh shot - he fell to the ground. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes and could you go on please what happened then. MR STERRENBERG The person then fell, there was a halt in the firing, I then ran closer - and took shelter behind a tree in NY1. I looked out and saw the person laying on the ground his feet were towards me - the side of - I could make out the side profile of his face and he seemed to be looking at me. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA This person you shot - do you remember who he was - his name? MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Christopher Piet. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Nicknamed Rasta. MR STERRENBERG I heard that later on yes. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So when you shot Rasta and he laid down you saw a movement - a slight movement and you imagined he was still dangerous and he could do something dangerous to you. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And so could you - then you went towards him to shoot him with your other pistol. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am just trying to recapture what you said before that you then continued - you went on to shoot him with your pistol. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA When you saw a movement. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And this movement according to your judgements could have been dangerous to you and to the others. MR STERRENBERG At that stage I feared that he could either shoot in my direction or throw the hand grenade yes. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA In terms of distance between Rasta and yourself, how far do you think you were from Rasta when you fired the pistol. MR STERRENBERG About three to four - three to four steps away from him - three to four meters away from him. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Three to four meters from him. And how many shots did you fire? MR STERRENBERG Three simultaneously. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Three simultaneously - and this was so that he does not throw the grenade that you thought he may have. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG I have been in this position over here, and when I heard Major Odendal call hand grenade had been thrown - heard the explosion I moved towards the road to see what was going on. At that time I saw the person running down over here and simultaneously saw the person running across the intersection. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG From my position here I fired shots at him while he was running across the intersection. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes. MR STERRENBERG And he eventually came to land approximately over here - and it was between- he landed between a tree and the fence. When there was a lully in the shooting, I ran closer to the tree where I took position behind the tree. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So where - as you were standing you were standing behind him lying down as you fired the pistol. MR STERRENBERG From the position here - ja he was laying - the tree was sort of a - he was laying at a angle to me. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Okay so he has your - he is lying on the ground with his face down on the ground. MR STERRENBERG With his face turned towards me. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA With his face turned towards you and so you could see his hands. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And your purpose for firing at him was to disable him - I mean so that he does not - he cannot shoot at you. MR STERRENBERG That is correct. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Or he cannot throw anything at you - so the purpose was to disable - so about three meters from him - you fired the pistol. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And where did you fire - thank you very much Mr Sterrenberg can be seated. Where did you point the pistol - what part of his body did you shoot so that you disable him in order that he does not thrown the hand grenade. MR STERRENBERG I fired the - I fired the shots at his head. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA At his head. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And in your view this was the best part of his body to fire to make sure that he does not throw the grenade. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am just wondering now about the language - to put a person out of action - and to disable him, between those two expression what your major intention was - was it to put him out of action or was it to kill him. MR STERRENBERG Put him out of action - kill him immediately as quick as possible. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So really at that point you were intending to kill him. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA By a man who lay down with seven bullet wounds already on his body. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am just going to circulate if you may again another Exhibit - picture - photograph nr 3, 4 and photograph nr 60, 61, 62, 63, 64 - photograph nr 3 and 4 show Christopher Piet lying face down - 3 and 4. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Do you see that - lying face down with his gun - lying over his gun faced down - he had already fallen. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And could you turn the pages please to 60. MR STERRENBERG 60. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA 60 - 61 - 62 - 63 - 64 - and that is the body of Christopher Piet with several wounds. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG To 64? MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes 64. MR STERRENBERG Yes. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Can you see the wounds on Christopher. MR STERRENBERG I can see the wounds ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Can you just look at the head there - the head wounds. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So - so yes. MR STERRENBERG As I say the shots that I fired were from his left hand side at the time he was running and then the three at his head when I was behind the tree - it is possible that of my colleagues did fire at him as well. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And you will state under oath that your intention was really to disable him - to capture him so that they are imprisonment - not to kill him. MR STERRENBERG Initially yes, that was before that any action was taken which endangered my life - the life of my colleagues or any other innocent civilians who may have been in that vicinity. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA That meeting of the 2nd of March - rather of the night - of the morning - early morning - of 3rd March 1986 - we have evidence that the intention - the plan that was given to officers who were sent on this operation was to shoot - to kill. Can you tell us anything about this. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I am talking about the Kombi that the men - your targets were driving - at what stage were you told which van they would be driving. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So you went to the scene of the expected crime without knowing what van this men would be driving. MR STERRENBERG That is correct ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So you were told that there were two informers but they did not tell you what van these people would be driving with the informers. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA I see - so you were going to stop people and you did not know what van they were driving. MR STERRENBERG No. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thanks - after the events do you remember what kind of firearms were found on these men. MR STERRENBERG I remember on the individual that I had been standing at - a AK47 was recovered from him - which had two magazines - three magazines - two were taped together. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But in all of the victims there were weapons found. MR STERRENBERG As far as I can recall ja. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes - now the gentleman - an officer who was part of your team - where was he when the shooting took place was he in die bushes or did he mingle with the rest of the team? MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Yes - I just want to go back to the discoveries that the police made of these firearms. We have a video tape of the events of the day together with the photographs that have been submitted to us - and one of the things that have been gleamed from this video tape - is a voice of someone calling out to Trompie to bring out the Tokarev - now this is the final stage when everything has been done and obviously the searches of these men to see what can be found. And one of the things that we hear from this video is a voice by some officer who says that Trompie has the Tokarev - I am trying to find the exact - ja - the voice says - Trompie het die Tokarev. Now this is the stage where the person - you are obviously trying to establish what firearms there are - and what is strange to us is that Trompie is called out - someone calls out to say Trompie has the Tokarev. And beyond that another voice comes up and says moenie die wapen naby hom sit nie. So the picture we have is that of a group of officers planting at least this Tokarev to a victim - this is what it seems from the voice over on the video - Trompie het die Tokarev and then obviously we imagine Trompie bringing the Tokarev and another voice comes out and says - nee moenie die wapen naby hom sit nie. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA But you do confirm that Trompie was a member of your team. MR STERRENBERG Trompie was a member of the team and he had been placed with Major Odendal. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So you were not part of this conversation yourself. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you I am going to try and round up now and give my colleagues a chance to ask their questions. When Rasta lay there - was he - did someone certify him dead? MR STERRENBERG He was later removed by the ambulance personnel after the explosives expert had turned him over. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So no-one came to see whether he - you know - because he lay - he was obviously wounded - there was no effort to see whether he could be perhaps quickly taken to hospital - did that happen? MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So at that point you were not commanded to see whether people could still be taken to hospital and could benefit from some kind of treatment. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And I just wondered whether you know - how ambulances could be standing far in the background with a man lying there and - with you. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you Ms Gobodo-Madikizela. Any members of the panel - Mary - advocate Potgieter. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Sterrenberg you are a senior Superintendent. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER And you are the official spokesperson for the police in the Western Cape is that correct. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir, I am the provincial communications officer. ADV POTGIETER Now you seem to have been doing like some of your colleagues who were involved in this incident - some special services - spesiale dienste in the old South African Police. Starting in 1971 when you were apparently doing border duty in the Caprivi. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER So you seem to have a long background of this sort of conflict - I mean you were not a bobby on the beat - you seemed to have been through the mill if I may put it that way. MR STERRENBERG On the contrary you are correct sir, I had been through the mill, I was a bobby on the beat for many years, I have service from 1965 - border duty was not a choice - we were ordered to go and when our numbers came up it was - there was no choice really we were ordered to do border duty, that was what you had to do. ADV POTGIETER You - you in fact done two stints of border duty in the Caprivi it says. MR STERRENBERG That is - that is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER And then it seems that you have been involved in the Rhodesian War. MR STERRENBERG Correct sir - also as a South African policeman seconded to Rhodesia over which I also had no control. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER And you seemed to have been involved in - in 1988 it seems then it was still known as Natal - the present KwaZulu Natal. MR STERRENBERG That is correct to sir. ADV POTGIETER In the unrest situation there. MR STERRENBERG That is correct yes sir, I was sent there as a video camera operator to assist in recording crime scenes. ADV POTGIETER And you seemed to have been fairly effective because it appears that you had been given quite a number of decorations. MR STERRENBERG Merely all service decorations sir. ADV POTGIETER You were given some decorations it seemed in 1971 for combating terrorism. MR STERRENBERG Any member of the South African Police serving a period of 90 days in any operational area as described in those years qualified for that decoration. ADV POTGIETER And you did. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG Ja ten years good service medal - twenty year good service medal and a thirty year good service medal. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER So this was a - this was a bar for having - having successfully been deployed in combating terrorism. MR STERRENBERG Not successfully but deployed in insurgency operations for a second period of three months yes. ADV POTGIETER Oh! you say not successfully. MR STERRENBERG Well [intervention] ADV POTGIETER Well you get a declaration even if you not effected in the old days. MR STERRENBERG Successfully in that I completed the 30 day period sir. ADV POTGIETER And then [intervention] MR STERRENBERG Sorry the 90 day period sir. ADV POTGIETER And then it seems as if you have been awarded another - another balkie - for combating terrorism in 1989. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER After this incident. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER So - but I think we agree you seem to have been active in combating terrorism. MR STERRENBERG As I am sure most of my colleagues in the South African Police were at that time sir. ADV POTGIETER Have you been involved in Koevoet? MR STERRENBERG I had performed - I am not a member of Koevoet but I was a gunsmith who performed duty at Oshakati servicing weapons of members performing border duties. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG Logistical support for members performing border duties. ADV POTGIETER Now as you know we have heard some previous testimony about this particular incident and it is common cause - it is common knowledge at this stage as the media has reported and your Council has referred to before you testified that this operation had a Vlakplaas involvement. MR STERRENBERG I am aware of that sir. ADV POTGIETER And were you aware of that the morning of this operation? MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER Did you know about Vlakplaas at all at that stage. MR STERRENBERG Not at that time sir, the only time I became aware of the Vlakplaas as such - was after revelations were made in the media by operatives from that place. ADV POTGIETER So in spite of your service in combating terrorism and having been decorated on more than one occasion - you tell us that you had no idea that there was ever such a place as Vlakplaas in 1986 when you engaged in this operation. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir - you must realise that I was a uniform policeman for my entire career. The Security Branch was a small section of the South African Police Service who operated on a need to know basis - I was a member of the Uniform Branch and was required on a number of occasions to perform duties at various places in South Africa. ADV POTGIETER Were you given any background to this operation - were you ever told during this briefing in the morning before the incident what this was all about? MR STERRENBERG No sir the only thing we were told was that an ambush was planned on - an ambush had been planned on a vehicle that was to transport members of the police to the Guguletu police station. ADV POTGIETER You were not told how this information was obtained by the police. MR STERRENBERG From informers that were available to the Security Branch. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG No sir I assumed he was from Security Head Office. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG As informers ja - I knew they were used as informers. ADV POTGIETER So you knew that there were these rehabilitated freedom fighters. MR STERRENBERG I knew it on the basis of what they told me yes. ADV POTGIETER And did you know that it was this type of informer that was involved in this operation. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER you were not told that there was an infiltration of a group of persons who were believed to have been involved in the unrest and the trouble that was happening in the Western Cape at that stage. MR STERRENBERG Sir at time we were told that informers had been in contact with a group of people who were going to launch this attack on the police vehicle. ADV POTGIETER Now you see there has been this perspective on this case which - which has arisen from some of the testimony and the circumstances surrounding this case, and it was another issue that was raised on your behalf that this was a Vlakplaas operation and that these people were executed as part of the Vlakplaas modus operandi which we have come to learn such a lot about in recent times. You follow that you do - you do follow that there was that sort of perspective which has been put onto this case. MR STERRENBERG I am aware of that perspective sir. ADV POTGIETER What is your comment on that? MR STERRENBERG Sir if there was any connection of this nature - I would surely hope that this Commission would find out who was behind it, because then I feel that as a police officer I had been used by these people. ADV POTGIETER So you - your view is that if there is any truth in that - that you had been abused by some of your colleagues. MR STERRENBERG That is correct Your Worship. ADV POTGIETER Now you were issued with a shotgun it seems. MR STERRENBERG That is correct Your Worship. ADV POTGIETER What sort of shotgun were you issued with. MR STERRENBERG I think it was SSG. ADV POTGIETER SSG. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER And you had said to my colleague Ms Gobodo-Madikizela that your brief was to arrest. MR STERRENBERG That is correct ja. ADV POTGIETER SSG can you explain to us a bit more about SSG - how lethal is it - how - how normal is it to use SSG in an urban situation and so on, just tell us more about SSG. MR STERRENBERG It is an extremely lethal cartridge sir which can cause death as any other firearm can. ADV POTGIETER But in the range of shot that one can use in a shotgun, where does one place that in terms of how lethal it is. MR STERRENBERG I should say up to about 50 - 70 meters it could be lethal - depending on how much further the projector [indistinct] can travel. ADV POTGIETER Is it - perhaps I must put it more clearly to you to respond is SSG the most lethal type of shot that one can use in a shotgun. MR STERRENBERG I think there are more lethal types of shot available than SSG. ADV POTGIETER But in terms of the normal shot that [intervention] MR STERRENBERG It is a heavier type of shot than normal birdshot for example. ADV POTGIETER So it is more heavy - more dangerous more lethal. MR STERRENBERG That is correct yes. ADV POTGIETER Than the ordinary kind of shot that is used in say a situation of riot. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER And the likelihood if one fires SSG at somebody - would you agree I mean there is a high - a very high likelihood of killing that person. MR STERRENBERG That is correct Your Worship if you should hit that person. ADV POTGIETER Now assume you want to arrest somebody and you have a choice of shot that you using, what kind of shot would you use - would you use the lighter shot that would incapacitate the person or would you use this lethal SSG that - as a high likelihood of killing. MR STERRENBERG It would depend on the situation and what resistance or force was being offered in order to avoid the arrest or to protect people from being attacked by another with a firearm. ADV POTGIETER Were you issued with any other kind of shot? MR STERRENBERG No sir. ADV POTGIETER So you were only issued with this heavy shot. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER You could have been issued with lighter shot. MR STERRENBERG We could have been but in the situation there was a possibility that an attack could have been carried out on us. ADV POTGIETER Yes and how does that - how does that prevent you from being issued with lighter shot? MR STERRENBERG Well if you are being subjected to an attack and there was information that indicated an attack would be carried out with firearms - then that would have been the best option in the situation. ADV POTGIETER But you see if I understand your evidence correctly you were part of a stopper group - you were never going to be part of the conflict - you were never going to be part of the actual fighting you were on the preferable in the bushes. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER Waiting for anybody that might run away. MR STERRENBERG That is correct. ADV POTGIETER So that you can arrest a person. MR STERRENBERG Then I would do it on foot by actually physically containing or confounding the body of the person fleeing. Unless that person offered resistance in the form of a firearm. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG To be prepared in the event that an attack was carried out against us. ADV POTGIETER No but I think you agree with me you were not in the direct line of that attack you were sort of a backup. MR STERRENBERG I was a backup but also subjected to the same possibility of attack in the event somebody did escape yes. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG We prepared for any eventuality in the situation sir. But if the person did flee without offering arrest he would have been merely physically arrested. If he then offered resistance by using firearms then we were prepared for that eventuality as well. ADV POTGIETER So - so you say that the planning in this instance was to just issue with you with a more lethal shot. MR STERRENBERG And to arrest a person physically if he escaped in our direction. ADV POTGIETER And I assume that you understood that by using your SSG shot - a very high likelihood that you would kill the person that you shoot at. MR STERRENBERG If the person was offering resistance in the form of firearms yes sir. ADV POTGIETER And then you seemed to have had a pistol. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER Is that the normal police pistol. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER Were there - were there any standing orders within the South African Police that in regard to the use of SSG. MR STERRENBERG Not that I can - not in standing orders sir but contained in your operational orders when you went onto the operation or when you were tasked to perform a certain assignment. ADV POTGIETER Now what were those - what were those orders - whatever they are called. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER But what is the - just to explain in a - in a sentence or two - what was the policy underlying this - these orders. MR STERRENBERG The police would always be the minimum - minimum force starting with a physical arrest without the use of violence or force in order to effect that arrest. But should resistance be offered depending on the degree of resistance offered - obviously your action would be more heavy handed. ADV POTGIETER Just to try and understand that, was the standing order that SSG this sort of heavy calibre shot - is a sort of a - almost a last resort. MR STERRENBERG Well it would be a resort to put out of action the person firing at you. ADV POTGIETER ADV NTSEBEZA MEETING ADJOURNS FOR TEA ON RESUMPTION ADV NTSEBEZA MR STERRENBERG Sir. ADV NTSEBEZA Advocate Potgieter - can you switch off cell phones and can we have some measure of order and quite - thank you. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson - Superintendent Sterrenberg - lets move on a little bit, when the person that you admit you shot was running that person was moving away from where you were not so. MR STERRENBERG Was moving - he was moving diagonally across my vision sir. ADV POTGIETER But he was going to move in a southerly direction down NY1. MR STERRENBERG That is correct yes. ADV POTGIETER And if I understood your evidence correctly you were out of the bushes on the eastern side of NY1. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER So for all intends and purposes this person would have been moving away from you. MR STERRENBERG That is correct Your Worship. ADV POTGIETER And that person was not posing a direct threat to you. MR STERRENBERG Not at that stage, but he could have been posing a threat - I had assumed that of my colleagues had been injured by his actions - the threat at that time would have been to the people further down in the road. This is a residential area and is been frequented not only by the police officers who were in that area at that time, but also innocent civilians. ADV POTGIETER Yes you have - you have jumped the gun slightly. MR STERRENBERG I beg your pardon sir. ADV POTGIETER I want to see if we understand each other - we are speaking about yourself there was no direct threat to you personally. MR STERRENBERG No but there was an obligation on me to stop him in what he was doing sir. ADV POTGIETER Ja but you agree there was no direct threat to you personally. MR STERRENBERG Not at that stage no. ADV POTGIETER Was there okay good - you thought that you should act because of the threat that was posed to other people. MR STERRENBERG That is correct Your Worship. ADV POTGIETER Who are those other people? MR STERRENBERG It could have been other police officers in that vicinity as well as well as other innocent civilians. ADV POTGIETER But you not sure. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER There could have been nobody there. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER But you still decided to fire seven shots with SSG at this person. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER Now were you sort of firing these shots in succession or how were you firing? MR STERRENBERG In quick succession yes. ADV POTGIETER Why did you do that? MR STERRENBERG In order to stop him in what he was doing. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG Because as I was firing the shots it occurred to me that these shots were having no effect whatsoever. ADV POTGIETER But how did you have time to assess that if you shooting in quick succession. MR STERRENBERG Because if I [intervention] ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER So you carried on firing several shots of SSG and then what happened to this person? MR STERRENBERG Eventually he fell as I already indicated he fell in NY1 between the fence and the tree in NY1. ADV POTGIETER Now are you a fair shot? MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER But you know - you know how to use a firearm? MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER And you were taking aim and you were serious to - to hit the person, to hit your target. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER And you were using this lethal shot so one could assume that you must have hit him with one of those seven shots. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER With seven shots a person running diagonally across your view, with a shotgun. MR STERRENBERG It is possible Your Worship. ADV POTGIETER Would you miss him completely? MR STERRENBERG It is possible sir. ADV POTGIETER These were dangerous in those days. MR STERRENBERG As I say it is possible sir. ADV POTGIETER Possible that you missed him totally. MR STERRENBERG It is possible yes. ADV POTGIETER But it is possible that you could have hit him seven times. MR STERRENBERG I think had I hit him, he would have gone down quicker sir. ADV POTGIETER Now he is down, you see him falling, he falls to the ground. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER Now you moving closer - correct? MR STERRENBERG Correct. ADV POTGIETER The person stays on the ground. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER And you then move and you - you move in behind a tree. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER You take cover behind a tree. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER And you about three or four metres away from this person. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER What did you then exactly see - what happened? MR STERRENBERG I looked out of the tree and saw this - I saw his face turn towards me and I saw him executing a movement in front of his chest - assumed that he was either going to turn the weapon in my direction or throw a hand grenade at which time I took further action against him. ADV POTGIETER Now just before we proceed with that - perhaps you can indicate to us from where you are sitting - how far you were away from the person that was lying on the ground when you were taking cover behind a tree? MR STERRENBERG Approximately from where I am sitting to where the electric cord is running at the end of the stage. ADV POTGIETER The black electric cord there. MR STERRENBERG Just along to the stage. ADV POTGIETER At the end of the stage. Ja it seems to be about three meters if I am not mistaken. MR STERRENBERG Approximately. ADV POTGIETER Now the persons lifts his head up and you assume he is looking in your direction. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER You still standing behind the tree - and then you see him making some movement. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER With which part of his body? MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER Was he lying face down on the ground. MR STERRENBERG He was laying - the front part of his body was on the ground and his head was turned towards me. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER So the hands were underneath the chest. MR STERRENBERG That is correct. ADV POTGIETER Now which part of the body was closer to you - the legs or the [intervention] MR STERRENBERG His feet were closer to me. ADV POTGIETER Feet were closer to you. MR STERRENBERG Yes. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER And then you shot him three times in the head. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER Was it in the side of the head? MR STERRENBERG It was on the side of his face yes. ADV POTGIETER With your - with your pistol. MR STERRENBERG With the 9mm pistol. ADV POTGIETER 9mm pistol at a distance of three meters. You say that you - you were thinking that the person would throw a hand grenade at you. MR STERRENBERG Correct sir. ADV POTGIETER Why did you think that? MR STERRENBERG An explosion had already occurred, a hand grenade had already been thrown - and I - there was a possibility that there would be further explosives devices available to these people. ADV POTGIETER It never occurred to you that there is a possibility that the person was dying. MR STERRENBERG It could have been possible yes sir. ADV POTGIETER Did it occur to you? MR STERRENBERG Not at that stage - at that stage the [indistinct] had been that this person was going to throw a hand grenade or turn his weapon on me. ADV POTGIETER Or turn it on you. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER And we just trying to understand what went through your head what exactly gave you that idea that he would either throw a hand grenade or he would shoot you with a gun. MR STERRENBERG The movements that were being made at that time. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG I was standing behind the tree yes. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG It is a known fact sir that projectiles fired from a weapon can penetrate a tree - a tree is after all only wood as well as any scrapnel from a grenade which could cover a wide area. ADV POTGIETER So you thought that you could be injured through the tree - right through the tree. MR STERRENBERG Injured or killed either through the tree or by the device spreading scrapnel over a wider area in that vicinity yes. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER You never seemed actually trying to throw a hand grenade at you. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER You never saw him actually trying to use his firearm to shoot at you behind the tree. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER Was there - was there any reason why - whilst you were behind this tree you could not ascertain exactly what was going on? Taking the scenario - this person more than likely hit by your SSG which is a killer in itself - he is lying on the ground he is not trying to get up so he must have been fairly injured at that stage - was there any reason why it was not possible for you to ascertain exactly what this person was going to do, because you seem to have just acted quite rashly with respect. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER And then - and then you formed the intention to kill as you said earlier whilst he was standing behind this tree - assuming that this person would either throw a hand grenade or shoot you with a gun. MR STERRENBERG I formed the intention to defend myself against the possible attack Your Worship. ADV POTGIETER No - no Superintendent you said earlier that you formed an intention to kill you wanted to kill the person as quickly as possible. MR STERRENBERG That is correct Your Worship - but it was in order to defend myself. ADV POTGIETER And then you shot him three times through the head. MR STERRENBERG That is correct Your Worship. ADV POTGIETER Three times. MR STERRENBERG Your Worship it was in three successions and that is - our training was taught to fire in quick succession - in the event that one missed or one or two of the shots did miss. ADV POTGIETER And you must - oh! yes ja - you obviously had no confidence in your shooting ability because three meters away you thought you had missed - a person lying on the ground - lying still. MR STERRENBERG Sir when faced with a life situation this was - you pull out all the stops in order to defend yourself. ADV POTGIETER Ja you certainly I must agree you did pull out all stops. MR STERRENBERG Thank you sir. ADV POTGIETER You shot three times. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER Was your response that you were trained that way. MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV POTGIETER To respond like that. MR STERRENBERG That is correct. ADV POTGIETER Shoot somebody three times through the head. MR STERRENBERG If we are threatened with the - a person who is posing in an eminent danger to one self. ADV POTGIETER Ja were you not sure what the person is going to do - whether he is dying or whether he is - whatever is going to happen. MR STERRENBERG Ja in that situation sir I was reasonably sure that he was going to conduct or carry out an attack against me. ADV POTGIETER It never occurred to you to shoot him through a different part of the body. MR STERRENBERG Any shooting at any other part of his body sir would of in any event still afforded him the opportunity of carrying out an attack against him. ADV POTGIETER Until you were sure there was going to be a further attack on you - or an attack on you. MR STERRENBERG The circumstances Your Worship I assumed that the attack was eminent and was going to be carried out against me. ADV POTGIETER Is there no doubt in your mind at all. MR STERRENBERG None whatsoever sir. ADV POTGIETER About your conduct? MR STERRENBERG None whatsoever sir. ADV POTGIETER It never crossed your mind that you could have overstepped the situation completely. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER You see I must be quite honest with you - I am not speaking for my colleagues - I have a bit of a difficulty to try and read your mind under those circumstances - because it seems to me quite excessive to shoot somebody three times through the head under the circumstances that has been sketched here and I must be quite - I must be fair with you, I must put that difficulty to you here whether you want to debate it any further or whatever your response - whatever response you have. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER Did you - did you at any stage allege that while the person was lying on the ground - he was firing shots. MR STERRENBERG I said at the beginning when he fell he had still been firing and then there was a lull in the firing at which time I ran closer to the tree. ADV POTGIETER Oh! that was before you got to the tree. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG Not at that stage sir. ADV POTGIETER Because that was the impression that I got from the statement that you made later on that day on the 3rd of March. MR STERRENBERG May I just peruse my statement sir. ADV POTGIETER That after you had taken cover behind a tree - initially you said it was a stationary vehicle - you changed your statement - amended your statement in that regard and said that it was a tree in NY1 you say the person firing shots in our direction. MR STERRENBERG No incorrect Your Worship. ADV POTGIETER Is this wrong? MR STERRENBERG Ja. ADV POTGIETER The person never fired? MR STERRENBERG Not at me no sir. ADV POTGIETER No - no not fired at all. MR STERRENBERG Not at that stage no. ADV NTSEBEZA MR STERRENBERG I understand what you are saying sir. ADV NTSEBEZA I am covered if you move one more time I will have to shoot to kill you - those sort of thing. MR STERRENBERG I understand what you are saying sir. ADV NTSEBEZA The person is three phases away from you - you are standing behind your tree - you see a movement of his shoulders more or less - did it not occur to you to do that? Just asking the question? MR STERRENBERG I understand the sentiments but at that stage one has a split second to decide whether to take any action or not. ADV NTSEBEZA No I am just asking if it never occurred to you to do so. MR STERRENBERG No not at that stage. ADV NTSEBEZA MR STERRENBERG No I issued no instructions. ADV NTSEBEZA You never gave him an opportunity to surrender by ordering him to surrender. MR STERRENBERG Not at that stage sir - as I felt I was in eminent danger. ADV NTSEBEZA Yes, now I can quite understand what you felt then - so many years have now elapsed and in the coldness of this proceedings room, I am sure you now have had time to reflect and you have had the time to reflect and you are not being put on trial - now that you look back on things - do you still feel that it was not an appropriate thing for circumstances to have at least endeavoured to cause the person to surrender given that according to you the briefing that you had got was to escape or prevent these people from escaping or to arrest them. MR STERRENBERG ADV NTSEBEZA What are your thoughts now? MR STERRENBERG Your Worship I would have - I think in a situation tried to have called to the person and see what his reaction would have been. ADV NTSEBEZA Pumla. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG I am assuming you are asking when I [intervention] ADV VAN ZYL MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA We have a transcript I think that will be the records, but what I heard MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA And about the planning of the intention - the stated intention what you report is the stated intention of preventing the combat and the capture of this men - that seems to contrast quite dramatically the events as they unfolded on that day. Based on what we have - the information we have about the infiltration of this group - this group of men - it seems to me that their movements were known by the police - there were men - your informers - the informers that you yourself knew about had been planted at where ever it was that they state - but still you waited you and your team waited until the day of the operation to capture them. Why do you think you had to wait until the day - the 3rd of March rather than capture them where they operated from given that you had informers for about a month. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA So you only knew that these men - this was - you were going to surprise them. MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA They did not - the last question I want to ask relates to your personal experience of the event - you mentioned earlier on that you were in shock and you mentioned to the chair as well that it was quite a traumatic event. MR STERRENBERG Your Worship if I can recall correctly I were - on returning home I was unable to sleep and for days after that as well I was unable to sleep properly. I still have problems sleeping at night and have been affected by this incident. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Did you ever seek professional help? MR STERRENBERG MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA How did you handle this kind of experiences when you were in Oshakati? MR STERRENBERG In Oshakati I was never exposed to experiences of this nature - as I say I was there on logistical support so I was never really an operative in the field. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Thank you. ADV NTSEBEZA Advocate Potgieter? ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson - perhaps just round off the issue that we have been discussing you see as you know we have to look at this case taking into account the perspective that has been brought to bear on this - to the effect that what was happening was that people were being executed so you see I needed to hear you taking that into account on this scene where you shoot the persone three times - three times through the head - and one has got to take into account the perspective of an execution which has been brought into this - this whole thing and decide how that in fact bears on your explanation of why you saw fit to shoot a person three times through the head at short distance under those circumstances. So I thought I must just explain to you what - where this is coming from and what all the angles are that we need to look at as a Commission - insofar as this case is concerned. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER No but you see you are - you are almost posing with a nervous smile as you put it - next to this body lying on the ground I mean for what conceivable reason would that be? MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER I am just - I am just trying to get some assistance I mean can you think of any conceivable reason why it was necessary for this photograph to have been taken? MR STERRENBERG None whatsoever sir. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER And we know that from subsequent testimony that some people were paid R1,000-00 a head for each one of these people that were killed - some people got R7,000-00 - kopgeld. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER Are you sure this was a nervous smile? MR STERRENBERG I can guarantee you it was a nervous smile sir. ADV POTGIETER Was this not a boastful - the act of somebody who - who is boasting about the success of this operation that he was involved in. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER Were you not aware that the photograph was being taken. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER But you - but you taking - you looking directly at the photographer. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER You mean you could have been looking directly at the photographer but you are not aware that he is taking a photo of you. MR STERRENBERG I could have been speaking to somebody else in the immediate vicinity there. ADV POTGIETER ADV VAN ZYL Ja it is. ADV POTGIETER Okay. MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA Nr 5. ADV POTGIETER MR STERRENBERG Your Worship there could have been people standing behind the photographer that I had been speaking to. ADV POTGIETER Ja but [intervention] ADV NTSEBEZA Order - order please. MR STERRENBERG Thank you sir. ADV NTSEBEZA Please let the witness testify in circumstances where he feels free to do so - thank you. ADV POTGIETER Ja I - no I perfectly agree with you Superintendent that there could have been people behind the photographer but the fact is that the photographer would have been between yourself and anybody else who were on the scene I mean you looking directly at the camera. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER You must have seen the photographer. MR STERRENBERG ADV POTGIETER Is that the only comment that you want to make about this [indistinct] MR STERRENBERG That is correct. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson. ADV NTSEBEZA Any other further contributions - thank you Superintendent Sterrenberg. MR STERRENBERG Thank you sir. ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairman I wonder if you will allow me to ask three questions in order to clear up a few things that has come up during the examination by the panel. I do not know whether this is the procedure. ADV NTSEBEZA We have not had that sort of procedure but I cannot see that I should not allow you to do so. ADV VAN ZYL Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Sterrenberg you were questioned at length about the type of shot that you were issued with that day. UNKNOWN Can the speaker speak closer to the mike. ADV VAN ZYL Now according to your information. ADV NTSEBEZA Can you speak closer into the mike because the interpreters are not able to hear. ADV VAN ZYL I will repeat the question then. Mr Sterrenberg you were questioned at length as to the type of shot that you had in your shotgun that day. Can you tell the Commission what did you expect - what did the policeman with you expect the assailants to have been armed with. MR STERRENBERG ADV VAN ZYL If you for instance issued with birdshot and the assailants should have decided to carry out an attack against you - would that have been of any use to you in the circumstances? MR STERRENBERG No sir it would have been pointless using that unless you were standing right up against the person. ADV VAN ZYL MR STERRENBERG That is correct sir. ADV VAN ZYL And did you discover whether any rounds were missing from those three magazines. MR STERRENBERG If I recall correctly one magazine was full and two were empty or vice versa if I can just read my statement sir I will be able to tell you. Ja two of the magazines were empty and one contained 30 rounds of ammunition. ADV VAN ZYL Now if one presume for the moment for purposes of this question that all three is - all three these magazines were full before this person started firing his AK47 how many rounds would two empty magazines represent. MR STERRENBERG I am telling you that they were both full - it would have been 60 rounds that had been fired. ADV VAN ZYL Thank you Mr Chairman - I appreciate the opportunity. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you advocate Van Zyl - Superintendent you excused. MR STERRENBERG Thank you sir. ADV VAN ZYL Mr Chairman is Mr Sterrenberg excused from the hearing altogether - he may go home? ADV NTSEBEZA I have always used a lawyers reply to that question by saying for the moment he is excused should any other issues arrised that need him to be recalled - he should await being recalled. ADV VAN ZYL Thank you Mr Chairman. MR STERRENBERG Thank you Mr Chairman. ADV NTSEBEZA That remains the position then - you are excused for the moment. MR STERRENBERG Thank you.