hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-04-24 HEIDERVELD 3 CT/00001 ANTON LUBOWSKI WILFRIED LUBOWSKI, MS LUBOWSKI [mother], ANNALIZE LUBOWSKI [sister] ASSASSINATION https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55165&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/heide/ct00001.htm DR BORAINE Mr Lubowski I would like to extend a very warm welcome to you, and express the gratitude of the Commission for your willingness to come under circumstances which are extremely difficult for you and for your family. Thank you very much for coming. Now I understand that your wife is with you Ms Lubowski, and also your daughter. May I extend the welcome to you as well. Mr Lubowski I understand that you are the only one who will be giving actual testimony this afternoon - both of you - thank you very much in deed then who will start. Ms Lubowski will you please stand to take the oath. MS LUBOWSKI Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Thank you very much please be seated. Mr Lubowski I think it may be as well to swear you in now also. WILFRIED FRANZ LUBOWSKI Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Thank you very much in deed. I just want to say that you have been here all day and you will know that the people who come to the Commission are drawn from a very-very wide spectrum. You will know that we met in East London and that from here we will go to Gauteng and then to Kwa-Zulu Natal and then to many-many parts of South Africa. We have stressed that our doors are open to all. Some of hardly know and that’s one of the reasons why we want them to come, because nobody knows about them, others are very well known and they are just as important for us. You will be telling us a story that obviously changed your entire lives, a story of a very-very well known South African, Namibian, world citizen in may ways Anton, know to many of us sitting on this Commission and certainly known to many in the audience and in other parts of South Africa and Namibia. We want you to know that we feel for you and that we will listen very carefully to your story and if there is anything we can do in order to help, I know you will tell us. Mr Denzil Potgieter a fellow Commissioner is going to - someone whom you know is going to lead you in order only to assist you to tell the story. You tell it in your way, but he’ll be there to guide you if necessary. Thank you very much. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Alex. Ms Lubowski prefers giving her testimony in Afrikaans and Mr Lubowski will give his testimony in English. You are very welcome here and also to your husband and to Annalize very welcome here. Madam you evidence will deal with the assassination of your son advocate Anton Lubowski, is that correct, you want to testify to that effect, please just relax you are very welcome. MS LUBOWSKI Anton Lubowski was my only son, he was raised in the spirit of opposition politics against apartheid. His father stood as a candidate in three election in South West Africa against the National Party. Anton completed his high school training at Paul Roos in Stellenbosch and then underwent one year military training in Pretoria as a lieutenant. Then he did a BA in Law at Stellenbosch University and completed that. He completed his LLB at the University of Cape Town. Anton was a child of God and the courage which I received over the past couple of years, to carry on with life, I’ve found in the same source every single Sunday I listen to the radio church service with Anton’s Bible on my lap. I know how much solace he has left me by underlining certain important verses in the Bible. And the verse which he left with me, and underlined for today comes from Romans 8 verse 31, what can we say of these things if God is for us, who can be against us. Right from the first day that he started at Lawrence and Bone in Windhoek, a firm of attorneys he was thrown into the deep end. He had to visit SWAPO awaiting trial prisoner in prison, the gruesome torture which this man had undergone so distressed Anton that he was physically ill after that. That was the start of numerous cruel actions that he suffered at the hands of the Security Police. I, his mother, I knew how much empathy he had with his fellow human beings and I understood what it did to his psyche and his soul. He decided to go to the Bar earlier as an advocate 60% of his cases were of a political nature and he defended SWAPO supporters. One again this brought him into very close contact with unbelievable stories of torture by the Security Forces in the police. SWAPO men who just disappeared overnight without a trace, torture in police cells and detention which shocked him to his core. There was also the case of an Ovambo women who had to stand against the wall for hours and hours she had her monthly period and the blood ran down her swollen legs. These kind of things nearly broke his spirit. He became more and more outspoken and took up a strong point - point of view against the authorities and apartheid legislation. All these things of course made him a marked man. In 1984 he joined SWAPO openly and that was the start of his road to tragedy filled with unbelievable pain and suffering, not only for him but also for his wife and his children and his loved ones. In a local newspaper in Windhoek he was warned about what was waiting for him. Anton - Anton now you’ll know what hell on earth is, you’ll know what it’s like to walk down the street and to know that eyes are following you. You are now the inmate of the outer sphere of hell and particular darkness, you’re a marked man. Thereafter his life was constantly in danger, he had threatening calls frequently. His wife and children were also warned that he had only hours to life. Pamphlets depicting his head full of bullet wounds were received in the post, other pamphlets showing his head covered in this most filthy language in Afrikaans were also received. If I may show you an example [intervention] ADV POTGIETER Do you have examples of the kind of thing you talking about of these pamphlets. And this one he also received, not only this one, but numerous others. When you finished giving your evidence I will ask you to hand in these documents as Exhibits when [intervention] MS LUBOWSKI May I read, may I read you what it says here. ADV POTGIETER Certainly. MS LUBOWSKI SWAPO you’re out, you are filth, you are worst than the excrement of a snake, you piece of filth, you communist, away with you, kaffir boetie, you are going to die, you filth. You are no good, pig head, and child of a hoar. He had fewer and fewer cases to defend, he was a social outcast as if he had some kind of a contagious disease. He was openly cursed as a white kaffir and sometimes he rather enjoyed that. One evening when he came back from Khatature where he had gone to take food to poor black people just outside Windhoek he was shot at. He immediately went to the police and showed them the evidence, his window had been shot at, but the police just ignored him, they turned their backs on him. He was thrown into prison with 23 SWAPO members because he had also protested against the unjust laws, once again he gained first hand experience of the terrible conditions in prison, no toilet facilities, squat closets in the ground. And to wash there was only a hole over this water closet and there was a stream of water jetting out onto it and of course this was the kind of conditions where diseases flourished. Mielie pap three times a day, and this was brought to them in a wheelbarrow and they were served end of Tape 14, side B … [indistinct] in solitary detention. The questions they put to him there they could of also put to him in his advocate’s rooms, he was clothed only in a pair of underpants, he had one blanket and the Bible ironically enough. They wanted to break him because he was a threat to the National Party Government in South West Africa as well as abroad because he had become known in many countries as a fighter against apartheid. He was hated for his background, his academic achievements as well as his status. With an Afrikaner mother, a German father, both from respected families and backgrounds, that they could not abide. Namibia’s independence was already afore comple Resolution 435 was a reality. SWAPO’s white boy a huge threat. The disciples of Satan the beast. As from the 1st of September 1989 started planning his assassination in Johannesburg and in Pretoria. Thousands of rands which were taxpayers money was made available and this is the hardest thing of all to swallow that we paid to have our son killed. The instruction for the assassination was given to: Staal Burger Chappie Marais Ferdi Barnard Kalla Botha Slang van Zyl Wouter Basson Donald Acheson a professional hit man. After everything that I’ve now told you no normal person can believe that my son Anton Lubowski, could ever have become a spy for the National Party Government as national - as Magnus Malan alleged in Parliament. I am requesting the Commission to help us to take away the hindrances, so that our child’s murders can be triad in a Court of Law. The assassination was planned here in South Africa by Afrikaners and was committed in Namibia when it was still under South African jurisdiction. I conclude by explaining why I wrote the book Anton Lubowski, paradox of a man, in English. The reason for that was that because Anton was so well known abroad I wanted to show the world how low the National Party had stooped with their illegal occupation in Namibia. He lived when a political crimes were a mask for the so-called Christian country and Government to commit their atrocities. The hatred which was almost tangible because you wanted to promote justice, evoke the feeling that his death led to the lancing of this boil. I would like to use this opportunity to thank the Truth Commission from the bottom of my heart that they have given us this privilege and I would like to thank the people of Cape Town - my pastor Dr Ben Kotze, who supported me for six years. All the many Afrikaans people who did not want to carry on living as before, it doesn’t matter to which political party they belonged, thank you very much. ADV POTGIETER We thank you madam. You have in your possession for the assistance of the Commission a file with clippings and cuttings from the various newspaper reports in Namibia especially which all relate to Anton’s case. MS LUBOWSKI Could you just repeat that please. ADV POTGIETER Yes, is it so that you have a file of newspaper clippings relating especially to the Namibian media and dealing with Anton’s case, and you would like to hand that in to help the Commission, thank you we will get that from you later when you’ve given your testimony. May I just clarify one last aspect, the one document that you have in your possession where you read all the filthy language, now the other document which you have in your possession, could you just describe that what is it, the one with the holes in. MS LUBOWSKI They made a target of his face and shot the bullets literally shot the bullets through it to show him what was waiting for him and that in fact happened. ADV POTGIETER On the front of the document there is a silhouette of a face which looks like a target with a lot of holes in, are these bullet holes? MS LUBOWSKI Yes. ADV POTGIETER And in the bottom written in red Anton WD Lubowski and on the back is also some writing on the back? MS LUBOWSKI Yes, take a shot communist, South West Africa, lets SWAPO’s - Anton - [indistinct] know that how you feel, just follow these steps, right down this address on an envelope Anton WD Lubowski, PO Box 3714, Windhoek, 9000 South West Africa, take the third one, filled up the remains of the target, slip them in an envelope and post it to WD Lubowski, we are sure he will enjoy receiving the target as much as you’ll enjoy shooting at it. Incidentally you can also ask him why he now has the additional initials WD to his name. ADV POTGIETER So those are clearly instructions - should I repeat that, those are apparently instructions to people using this target to address it to this address and the PO Box number is Anton’s postal address and then to post it back to him? MS LUBOWSKI Yes. ADV POTGIETER Is that the kind of thing that he would received. MS LUBOWSKI Yes and a lot more beside this is not the only one. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much Ms Lubowski is there anything you’d like to add to your testimony. MS LUBOWSKI No. DR BORAINE Thank you. Anybody who would like to put any questions Dumisa. ADV NTSEBEZA That was a very sad story, can I just ask without adding to the pain, whether Anton ever had the initials WD? Do you know what those initials stands for in popular balance? MS LUBOWSKI [No audible answer] ADV NTSEBEZA Now you have in fact asked the Commission to assist you. Was it not so that there was a request for the people you mentioned in your testimony to be extradited to Namibia to stand trial in this? MS LUBOWSKI Yes, they refused. ADV NTSEBEZA Who refused? MS LUBOWSKI They refused - three of the murders are still in Rhoodepoort, they refused because they said it’s not necessary for them to go to Namibia, South Africa, they’ve got nothing to do with it, they wanted more time. ADV NTSEBEZA And was it not so that the family themselves approached the Minister of Justice in this country. MS LUBOWSKI Ja. ADV NTSEBEZA To facilitate the process of extraditing those people. MS LUBOWSKI Yes - yes we went to Minister Dullah Omar and he said he is waiting for Namibia to ask for him to extradite these people to no - and up to now Namibia has not - they postponed the State’s case indefinitely, why we don’t know. ADV NTSEBEZA And is it in those sort of areas that you would like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to use it’s good officers to extradite this process. MS LUBOWSKI Yes - ja absolutely - absolutely because there is no reason on earth why they cannot be, why they cannot go to Namibia. ADV NTSEBEZA I know this can be of little consolation to you. MS LUBOWSKI Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA But don’t you feel that there is [indistinct] that one of those were actually saying that your son was a South African Defence Force spy, is today on trial. MS LUBOWSKI Magnus Malan. ADV NTSEBEZA Yes. MS LUBOWSKI Yes and I was hoping [intervention] ADV NTSEBEZA I have not convicted him, the Court has not convicted him. MS LUBOWSKI I know, I know. ADV NTSEBEZA But isn’t it [indistinct] justice that he is ignited today on charges of murder. MS LUBOWSKI Yes, that’s right. ADV NTSEBEZA Takes courage Ms Lubowski. MS LUBOWSKI Thank you. ADV NTSEBEZA Justice will still prevail in this country. MS LUBOWSKI I know it’s just so ironical that Anton fought for justice his whole life and now there is no justice for him, I cannot understand that. But I am sure, I trust in God, and God will help me. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you madam. DR BORAINE Any further questions, thank you so much. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] to present his evidence, Mr Lubowski. Perhaps just by way of introduction it’s correct that you are the father of Anton, late Anton.. MR LUBOWSKI That’s correct. Mr Chairman and Committee members may I kindly draw your attention to the fact that I am not English speaking and consequently please bear with me. I have to read off most of my story. ADV POTGIETER Unfortunately we can’t understand German Mr Lubowski. MR LUBOWSKI I wish you would. ADV POTGIETER It goes both ways. MR LUBOWSKI I am the undersigned Wilfried Franz Lubowski and I hereby declare that I am an adult male of Tamboerskloof, Cape Town, Western Cape Province. The facts deposed to herein are true and correct. I am the father of the late Anton Theodor Eberhard August Lubowski. Anton was shot and killed at approximately 20:30 on the 12th September and he was about to enter his home at 7 Sanderburg Street, Windhoek, Namibia. There is no doubt that the death of Anton resulted from a politically motivated assassination. Anton was an advocate of the Supreme Court and he practised as such both within the then South West Africa as well as the Republic in Government South Africa. He was also a high profiled and very well-know member of the South West African Peoples Organisation known as SWAPO. Anton established himself as a fighter in the Namibian Liberation Struggle and at great personal sacrifice fought fearlessly for that cause. As and advocate he was involved in a large number of so-called terrorist cases, he however, also took a leading part in the political struggle. He addressed meetings and marched with demonstrators. He represented SWAPO in 1984 at the Peace Summit in Lusaka and announced his membership of SWAPO encouraging other white people to follow his example. He was soon detained by the Security Police and in all detained six times including a time in solitary confinement in 1987 until he was released after the application was brought to the Supreme Court in South West Africa. It is a fact that for many years Anton had been harassed by the authorities of the day in Namibia. The assassination of Anton took place during the transitional period in Namibia that is Resolution 435 of the United Nations was being implemented there. The United Nations Transitional Assistance Team known as UNTAG, was from the 1st of April 1989 actively deployed inside the country occupying military bases and monitoring certain police activity. An election which would be free and fair was to be held in the terms of Resolution 435. This election was scheduled for November 1989, a few months after the assassination of Anton. The day after the assassination… Excuse me may I have a glass of water? ADV POTGIETER It’s fine Mr Lubowski, take your time. MR LUBOWSKI The day after the assassination of Anton, namely the 13th of September 1989, an Irish nation one Donald Acheson was arrested in regard to murder. Acheson was a hardened soldier who served in the Rhodesian Army and possibly also in the South African Defence Force. Acheson appeared in the High Court of Namibia charged with murder on the 18th of April 1990. The Prosecutor-General advocate Hans Heyman, however, applied for a postponement of the case and for Acheson to be remanded in custody. The postponement was sought on the basis that the Prosecutor-General wanted to join two co-accused in the case who were both South African citizens but that were various difficulties in securing their attendance at the trial in Windhoek. The Court granted postponement of the matter until the 7th of May 1990 in order to enable Prosecutor to produce evidence of the diplomatic initiatives which were taken to procure the attendance in Court of the said two persons. The prosecution could not produce any such evidence on the postponement date - postponed date and the charge of murder was consequently withdrawn against Acheson. It is, however, rumoured that the police were involved in the murder. These rumours persisted until a local newspaper The Namibian published an article on the 17th of May 1993 which contained allegations by a former Namibian policeman one Willem Rooinasie, concerning police involvement in the assassination. This resulted in a renewed investigation by the Namibian police and an eventual inquest into the death of Anton which was conducted in the High Court of Namibia by Mr Justice Harold Levy. The inquest ran during the period April to June 1994. The Court eventually made it’s findings on the 23rd of June 1994. As more fully appears from various extracts from the inquest findings of Mr Justice Levy, Anton’s death was attributed to being shot seven times on various parts of his body with an AK47 rifle and a final shot through the head with a different calibre firearm. In other words they wanted to make quite sure. The Court found that Acheson had executed the assassination on the instructions of the Division of the South African Defence Force known as the Civil Co-operation Bureau, also known as CCB. The inquest findings also rejected the allegation, which was made by the then South African Minister of Defence ex General Magnus Malan, in the South African Parliament on the 26th of February 1990, and repeated in evidence by one of the witnesses at the inquest, Willem Rooinasie, namely that Anton was an agent of the South African Defence Force. It is clear that the investigation into the assassination of Anton was plaques by misinformation, obfuscation, subterfuge and lies in order to conceal the fact that the assassination was planned and executed under direct orders from the CCB. Even the conduct of the prosecuting authorities of Namibia was clearly irregular and was severely criticised by Mr Justice Levy insofar as the prosecution of Acheson was concerned. Extracts from the inquest findings are annexed to this affidavit, I got them here in front of me, clearly setting out the background to the assassination and the manner in which it was eventually handled by both the Namibian police and the prosecuting authority. The assassination and subsequent defamatory allegations made against Anton has been a tremendous blow to our whole family but particularly the family of Anton and his good name and memory. I require from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to fully investigate the assassination in order to finally expose those responsible and to restore the good name and memory of Anton. It would also be appreciated if the Commission could consider the possibility of assistance for the family of Anton who has lost a breadwinner, husband and father. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much. You - you are in possession of the actual record of inquest findings of Mr Justice Harold Levy. MR LUBOWSKI Yes I took it. ADV POTGIETER And you would wish to have that handed in as an Exhibit to assist the Commission in dealing with this matter, is that correct? MR LUBOWSKI Correct yes. ADV POTGIETER May I just for the record and finally just ask you or refer you just to one or two aspects of those findings. Can you refer to page 110, I don’t want you to deal with everything that we have highlighted in fact I just want you to deal with one or two. Can you turn to page 110. MR LUBOWSKI 110? ADV POTGIETER That - that’s right. MR LUBOWSKI Yes. ADV POTGIETER Just that - that very last paragraph on that - on that page. MR LUBOWSKI Ja. ADV POTGIETER Could you read that into the record please. MR LUBOWSKI It is clear from this affidavit that Acheson was recruited by an organisation which is known as the CCB to kill SWAPO leaders. Acheson was asked if he was prepared to kill and he agreed. He received an AK47 obviously for that purpose. ADV POTGIETER I’ll ask you to stop there, I just wanted that section and then on page 125 of the inquest findings, can you turn to that please. MR LUBOWSKI Yes. ADV POTGIETER Have you got that in front of you? MR LUBOWSKI Acheson himself had no personal reason to kill Lubowski, The acknowledged policy of the CCB was to destabilise Namibia and to disrupt the elections in Namibia and even to assassinate leading figures. The evidence which I have analysed shows a prima facie involvement on the part of this organisation, the CCB to participate in and in fact to initiate the murder of Lubowski. ADV POTGIETER Thank you and then just finally, perhaps you can just read the actual finding on page 142[d]. MR LUBOWSKI Yes. ADV POTGIETER You can just read [1)] and [2] on page 142, could you read that into the record. MR LUBOWSKI The cause - is it the cause of - probable cause of death? ADV POTGIETER You might as well read that, it’s fine. MR LUBOWSKI Oh! you wanted the last part. ADV POTGIETER Well that’s actually what I was referring too. MR LUBOWSKI Okay the [d] ADV POTGIETER Yes. MR LUBOWSKI Whether the death of brought about by any act or omission prima facie involving or amounting to an offence on the part of any person. [i] prima facie Donald Acheson shot and murdered the deceased. [ii] prima facie the Civil Co-operation Bureau CCB initiated and is involved in the said murder and in addition to acts of the following members of the CCB prima facie amount to the acts of the accomplices to kill said Lubowski: Ferdinand Barnard Leon Andre Marais Daniel Ferdinand du Toit, known as Staal Burger Wouter Jacobus Basson Johan Niemoller Karel - Calla Botha Pieter Johan Verster Abraham van Zyl. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much, is there anything else you want to add to your evidence? MR LUBOWSKI I wish - would you allow my daughter to say a few words, she’ll do it my part, I am not capable, would that be all right. ADV POTGIETER It will certainly be in order Dr Boraine will have to swear here in. MR LUBOWSKI You could swear her in. ANNALIZE LUBOWSKI: Duly sworn states DR BORAINE We welcome you of course as we did earlier. Thank you very much, will you be seated please. MS LUBOWSKI I also - thanks - I also on behalf of my parents and the whole family would like to thank the Commission for giving us the opportunity. I know that this is quite a well-known and well broadcasted case. But even so we still, haven’t had any justice being done. We’ve tried every single avenue that is possible, and we’ve had not luck and nobody has really taken the time to explain to my parents why nothing has been done. We get excuses like the murder was committed outside the borders of the country, which is very difficult to understand because that was before independence and it was planned here. So and even if the Commission can you just see to it that the world will know about the atrocities committed in the country and how widely people were actually influenced by it. My parents, Anton’s children, even my children I still struggle to get back their faith in the justice system. And I still have to explain every time they see a policeman on the TV that not all of them are bad. It’s influenced our lives tremendously, it’s not only taking away my brother which was my mentor, but it’s changed my parents for ever and I think that is the main thing, that your personal life is completely affected by it. And if the Commission can try their best just to have justice - see that justice can be done. That at least the last few years that my parents have left, that they can still have faith in - and know that their son had fought for justice, also receive some, thank you. ADV POTGIETER Thank you very much Ms Lubowski. DR BORAINE Thank you Denzil, any questions, Mr Ntsebeza. ADV NTSEBEZA Now I don’t know whether Ms Lubowski you are in a position to reply to questions. I will make them as very few as possible. But I need to ask a question within similar circumstances I asked of persons in the East London hearings, namely if the people who are alleged as perpetrators in this matter, were to approach the Commission and apply for amnesty, and assuming that, that was possible in spite of the fact that the murder was committed elsewhere than in South Africa. But if a South African citizens they were to apply for amnesty, and assuming all other end of Tape 15, side A … … that they have made a full disclose and they meet all the requirements for the [indistinct] of amnesty what would your attitude be in that eventualisation??, and please answer as honestly as you [intervention] MS LUBOWSKI Ahh! I will - I never lie, that’s for sure, I don’t waste my time with lies. I discussed this many a times including Justice [indistinct] - somebody shot me. Justice Minister Dullah Omar, I asked him the same question, and the other day on the radio I heard that all those people who are mentioned here, will never apply for amnesty. So I asked Justice Minister Dullah Omar will you give people amnesty who were charged with murder, he told me straight off never. ADV NTSEBEZA Well that may be so from the point of view of Justice Minister Omar. MS LUBOWSKI Yes, well I’ve got to trust him surely. ADV NTSEBEZA Oh! well thank you, Do I agree with you? MS LUBOWSKI I can tell you anybody who - who did murder anybody is not entitle to amnesty. You should be honest enough to know if he wants to be honest with himself, he must stand up and be counted, that’s my opinion. ADV NTSEBEZA Well I believe you when you say, you don’t give - you don’t waste time with your - with lies, that is a very honest reply. May I just ask a few more questions. Have you in spite of the way that your son died, and every had a sense that he was none the less a hero of the Namibian struggle who - who laid down his life for the betterment of the people of that land. MS LUBOWSKI What was the question of that. ADV NTSEBEZA Have you ever had that sense that even though your son died not of his own volition. MS LUBOWSKI Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA That he none the less, was a hero of the Namibian struggle. MS LUBOWSKI Oh! yes. ADV NTSEBEZA And that, that sort of seems to have compensate for all the pain that you have gone through. MS LUBOWSKI Well I can only tell you that Anton was not a man who would look for publicity. But he would - he’d give his all for the cause he believed in and in that sense he definitely was a hero. A hero for Namibia, not so much for the white people, but very much for all the others. ADV NTSEBEZA Now when the 12th of September comes each year, what do you do as a family in commemoration? MS LUBOWSKI We sent a big bouquet of roses up to Windhoek to be put on his grave, and we sit around remineacy??. ADV NTSEBEZA Do you think of him. MS LUBOWSKI Ag every evening we light a candle, this has gone on for six years now - seven years almost in memory of Anton in front of his picture. ADV NTSEBEZA If it will assist you to share that pain with others, may I tell you that on that very day, people in this country usually remember another hero of the South African struggle, Steve Biko. MS LUBOWSKI I know, the same date. ADV NTSEBEZA He died twelve years ago - a dozen years to the day on which your own son died. Ms LUBOWSKI: Correct, and one of my grandchildren’s birthday on top of it. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Dr Boraine? DR BORAINE I don’t want to prolong this because I know it’s hard for you, both of you Ms Lubowski and Mr Lubowski in your separate statements referred to the members of the CCB. And Ms Lubowski you named them and in the Court proceedings they were mentioned as well. Now I think we understand something of your commitment for justice. Have you any idea where these men are and what they are doing right now, any of them at all? MR LUBOWSKI I believe three of them are in Rhoodepoort and the others living high life. I read in the paper that they - any Court case, won’t put them off, money is not the question. DR BORAINE Okay. MR LUBOWSKI They would welcome a Court case against them, because they know they are going to win it. DR BORAINE Okay, the last question, why do you think the Namibian authorities have waited so long and delayed so often to ask for at least these men that you know where they are and therefore other people know where they are, it’s not as if they disappeared from the face of the earth. What - what’s behind in your view, the refusal to request that they be extradited because as you know the Minister of Justice cannot act unless he is asked to do this. Have you any idea at all? MR LUBOWSKI Yes I approached the President, I approached the Prime Minister Hager [indistinct] I even approached the Minister of the Exterior, three of them - many a times, they just shuck their shoulders, I must the blame on the Attorney-General what is his name Heyman, Hans Heyman. As I read out here, I don’t know whether I did, but Hans Heyman is the one who has all the excuses in the world, but he doesn’t want to get anywhere else, he just wants to squash it. DR BORAINE Ja - ja. MR LUBOWSKI And I mean and this - I can’t understand this, we wrote a letter to the them President De Klerk, and he replied to me after six months the ball is in the court of Namibia, that’s the only reply I got from him. He washes his hands. So we really are running into a brick wall. DR BORAINE Sure, you heard earlier Advocate Potgieter say that we will do what we can to try and move towards the direction of finding some certainty and clarity about who really killed your son. We will do that. MR LUBOWSKI I would be very grateful and thankful. DR BORAINE Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much and just to echo the words of the Deputy or the Vice Chairperson at the beginning we are deeply grateful because you have been exposing this pain to the world so frequently and we will for our part within the means available to us, do all we can to be of assistance. Thank you. MR LUBOWSKI God bless you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you.