hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1996-04-23 HEIDERVELD 2 CT/00100 CHRISTOPHER PIET [son] CYNTHIA NGEWU, IRENE MTSINGWA, MS KHONELE KILLING https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55166&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/heide/ct00100.htm MIA EUNICE THEMBISO DR BORAINE Before we start I want to make absolutely sure that you are hearing my voice and much more importantly then you are hearing the translation into Xhosa. Is that all right, can you hear the translation - good - good. Well then I would like to welcome all four of you to the Commission and on behalf of the Chairperson and my fellow Commissioners to express first our appreciation to you for being willing to come to the hearings. Ms Ngewu I am going to start with you as the chief witness, but all of you of course are important and have your own stories to tell. And I am going to ask you Ms Ngewu if you will stand please so that we can take the oath. CYNTHIA NGEWU Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Where are you were living, about your children - about who you are. Just to - so that we can get to know you before we start with the story of what happened in 1986. Would you - would you mind doing that please. MS NGEWU Yes sir. DR BORAINE Thank you. MS NGEWU I am Ms Ngewu, I stay at NY54 no 8. Where I come from is Alice, but I got married in Transkei in Khombo location. I have four children, the fourth one is the one who was shot by the boers. I have six grandchildren, I now live with my husband here in Guguletu. DR BORAINE MS NGEWU Yes I remember. DR BORAINE Please tell us. MS NGEWU In 1986 on the 3rd of March, I think it was Monday if I am not mistaken. It was in the afternoon I was at home, comrades arrived, it was four or five of them. They were asking about Christopher who is my son. I told them that he took money from me telling me that he is just going to work. So they say so go, I saw the trolley which was next to the door, the trolley had him in it. So I identified him, they asked if I was sure, I said yes. I saw that he had a wound - a wound shot on his head, and there was blood coming from his ears. So I said okay please tell us the details of your - of your son. So I wrote everything. I went to the house, back to my house, so I told everybody that yes I identified my son, he is also one of the Guguletu 7 - the seven of us, myself and these woman next to me. A week before we buried my son, we were told not to - we were told to bury my son - there is a letter from the Magistrate, the Magistrate said that we must bury all this children a time - a while before we wanted us to do this. We are still waiting for our relatives coming from the rural areas to come to the funeral. When we ended up burying them at the time that we wanted to, while we were still waiting there were these policeman patrolling around and after I saw five or six police vans in front of my yard, I asked them what are you doing here, and one of the detectives his name was Blackie he said mamma what is it, I just want to know what are these police doing in my yard, get out of my yard. You have already killed my son, now you want to kill me. Mr Blackie scolded them and told them to leave, but they went to the vans and just stayed in - into their vehicles. DR BORAINE MS NGEWU Yes. DR BORAINE Sure would you like some water - some water. MS NGEWU Mr Blackie told this policemen to leave my house. It was - my house was full of detectives, we were left with one of these vans, we went to Ms Mia at no 21, we went to speak to him. We were going to all these woman who are next to me here, we went to Town. Okay after that we left, they took us home. After a long time we have already - we had already forgotten about this, we were told that there is going to be an inquests. We were told that it is going to last for a month. So we went to Wynberg. We kept on going to Wynberg about this because we are going to this inquest. We were told that Christopher was shot by Barnard and Coetzee. And these woman next to me were also told that, who the people shot their sons. One of the children who had his hands up, was also shot, he was also one of the Big Seven. He was one of the innocent ones. Some of these witnesses also mentioned the fact that the police shot somebody who even had his hands up. As the trial went on, just at the end - towards the end of it, the boers said to me, if you want, you can also come to the place where these people were shot, the crime scene. But I forgot to tell you this before, but this - this sight we want to - we want to - we want to do this again, just to show you again how everything happened. DR BORAINE Thank you very much helping us to try to understand what - what happened and what you went through. Can I ask you just a few questions to help us understand a little better, may I go on. MS NGEWU Yes. DR BORAINE Thank you - tell us first a little bit about your son Christopher, who was he - ho old was he when he was shot, just a little bit about his - was he at school, was he working, was he - tell us about him. MS NGEWU Christopher was 25 years old, he had already - he was already working. He was also working, helping me a lot around the house, sometimes he would fix the house, he was very helpful in - around the house. He was working at Albany bakery He had a three year old daughter at that time. Peza - was he a member of any political party, was he interested or active in politics? MS NGEWU DR BORAINE Ms Ngewu there was a lot - lots of stories written about the killing of these seven men in the newspapers on television, on radio, what do you remember, what did you remember reading about what happened or what you think happened on that day? MS NGEWU DR BORAINE What was the cause of death, was there one wound on your sons body or many wounds? MS NGEWU He had many bullet wounds on his - on his body. Even the doctors after the post-mortem the doctors told me that he had 25 bullet wounds. DR BORAINE There were about 30,000 people who attended the funeral on the 15th of March, do you remember that day? MS NGEWU Yes I remember. DR BORAINE Tell us a bit about that. MS NGEWU DR BORAINE The service went on all right? MS NGEWU Everything went well, because nobody - nobody was taking any notice of this boers. We decided to ignore them, the only thing that we were concentrating on was the funeral. DR BORAINE Now just going back again to the actual day on which your son was fatally wounded there were witnesses at the inquest who said that even some of the seven who were killed, was standing with their hands up in the air and they were shot. Do you remember that? MS NGEWU Yes that is so, I remember. DR BORAINE And the other witness said that while they were lying on the ground, the police came and put the gun to their head and shot them, do you remember that? MS NGEWU DR BORAINE Now Ms Ngewu there was an inquest and you attended that inquest, in fact there were two inquests is that right? MS NGEWU Yes I went to the inquest in Wynberg. DR BORAINE Yes, can you remember what the final result of that inquest was? I am sorry can you repeat that please. MS NGEWU I was told there is nobody - there is nobody to be blamed about the death of my son. DR BORAINE Do you remember a person by the name of Colonel Britz? MS NGEWU Yes I remember him. DR BORAINE At the inquest the Judge was very critical of Colonel Britz do you remember that? MS NGEWU DR BORAINE According to the judgement which was in the newspapers and on the television and radio, the judge criticised Colonel Britz because the police not only shot people there but went around shooting from the vans and he was very critical of that, do you remember that? MS NGEWU DR BORAINE MS NGEWU I think what happened is that even when I am just alone I am thinking to myself I was just thinking was their any survivor out of all these - out of all these killings and why did the boers kill everyone? Could they just warn them, or even kill - or even shoot them on their legs just to save their lives. DR BORAINE And that is one of the reasons why you are here. MS NGEWU DR BORAINE We nearly-nearly finished, one of the people who gave evidence at the inquest and you may not remember his name but he was a doctor and he was a doctor Van der Spuy. Do you remember a doctor giving evidence? Yes I remember that doctor. Now according to him six of the seven of the so-called Guguletu Seven were killed at very close range, in other words the gun was held very close to the person not from afar, do you remember that story too? MS NGEWU Yes I remember that - in Court. DR BORAINE And the doctor also said he thought that the witnesses were more reliable than the police. MS NGEWU Yes I remember that well. DR BORAINE And still the verdict was that nobody could be blamed for the killing of your son. MS NGEWU Yes they said that. DR BORAINE Thank you very much, would you like to add anything that we may have left out? MS NGEWU DR BORAINE [indistinct] want to consult with the Chairperson and my fellow Commissioners as to whether they would like to ask you questions now, or whether they would like to listen to your friends first may I do that, thank you. CHAIRPERSON DR BORAINE Ms Ngewu, hello again. MS NGEWU Hello sir. DR BORAINE MS NGEWU Yes. DR BORAINE Ms Ngewu, did you receive a death certificate when your son was - was killed? MS NGEWU DR BORAINE Have you applied for one? MS NGEWU DR BORAINE Your son was never identified. MS NGEWU Yes. DR BORAINE Even though there were two inquests and a burial. MS NGEWU DR BORAINE When was the last time you applied for the death certificate? MS NGEWU It was February. DR BORAINE Of this year? MS NGEWU Yes of this year. DR BORAINE Would you like to get a copy of that death certificate? MS NGEWU Yes I would like to have a copy of it please. DR BORAINE We will try and do that for you as a matter of urgency. Thank you - thank you very much. MS NGEWU Thank you. DR BORAINE Now I want to welcome again your friends and I am hoping that they all can hear what I am saying, all right. I have to ask you to take the oath and we will do it in the following order, first of all Ms Irene Mtsingwa. IRENE MTSINGWA Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Thank you very much will you be seated please. Then Ms Eunice Mia will you stand please. EUNICE MIA THEMBISO Duly sworn states DR BORAINE And finally Ms Khonele. MS KHONELE: Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Thank you very-very much indeed. Now I will start with you Ms Mtsingwa and are you ready to tell us your story. MS MTSINGWA Yes I am ready but please excuse my feverish voice. I am not sure if I am going to be heard correctly here, I am feverish. DR BORAINE MS MTSINGWA After a long time, after several days we were looking for him even in hospitals. There were mischievous things that Mr Barnard who as a policeman use to do to the children, who use to be - who use to insult them. But now we just thought that okay he may - he may be in the hospitals or even in prisons. During this period, one of my grandchildren was very ill and she was at Somerset Hospital. When I saw him, I saw that no his or her days are numbered. Some of my relatives helped me to look for my child who has gone - who has disappeared, nobody knew what happened to him. We tried to look in the prisons and hospitals and my grandchild on Thursday passed away. DR BORAINE Thank you very much, what was the name of your - your son who was killed? MS MTSINGWA It was Simon Mtsingwa. DR BORAINE And how old was he? MS MTSINGWA In May he was going to be 24. DR BORAINE And what was he doing, was he studying was he working, was he out of a job, what was he doing before he was killed? MS MTSINGWA He had just finished school and he was just waiting to get a job. And at that time, we were still trying to get a job for him at Ohlsons and he was waiting to go to the job the following week in the casualty. He was going to be full time there, but now he got this. DR BORAINE You heard that your son was amongst the children who were killed and young people who were killed, from your friends or how did you get the news? MS MTSINGWA DR BORAINE When you heard that your son was killed and they said that they had seen the body, did you try and find out what had happened? MS MTSINGWA DR BORAINE Yes I understand. You mentioned that there were guns placed on the bodies of the young men who were killed. Just please tell me a little bit more about that, whose guns were they? MS MTSINGWA DR BORAINE Okay, just one last question about that, were the guns on top of the bodies, were they on the side of the bodies, were they in the hands of the bodies? Where were the guns? MS MTSINGWA Please forgive me here because I am not sure about this, but it looks like these guns were just put here on their chest, the guns were not on their hands the guns were on the chests - on their chests. Now these were pictures from the - from the pictures please forgive me if this is not so. DR BORAINE MS MTSINGWA DR BORAINE MS MTSINGWA DR BORAINE MS MTSINGWA DR BORAINE [indistinct] are there any way in which you think the Commission can be of help to you? MS MTSINGWA DR BORAINE thank you. DR BORAINE Perhaps if you could just move the microphone. Hello Ms Mia, I - can you hear me all right through the earphones? MS THEMBISO Yes I can hear clearly. DR BORAINE MS THEMBISO I am Eunice Mia Thembiso. I have five children. DR BORAINE MS THEMBISO I am Eunice Thembiso Mia, I have five children, the fifth one is Jabulani, he is the one who passed away on the 3rd March 1986. I am from Bloemfontein, on this day, the 3rd of March 1986, I was working in the offices in Town. But then he insisted he did accompany me and up to NY59 if I am trying to cut a story short. He wanted to still go on with me but I told him no turn back. That was actually the last time I saw him. I got into the train at quarter to five, got to work, I was working two shifts, two hours in the offices from there I would go to the char, just to have more pocket money because the money that I was getting from the offices was too little. DR BORAINE MS THEMBISO DR BORAINE MS THEMBISO DR BORAINE MS THEMBISO Yes his name was Jabulani. DR BORAINE How old was he when he was killed? MS THEMBISO He was born in 1963 so he was 23 years. DR BORAINE Last question is - I just want to be absolutely clear first news you had of your sons death was when you saw it on television. MS THEMBISO That was the first time I saw him, it was on TV. Nobody told me anything, I saw it myself on TV during the news. DR BORAINE Thank you very much Ms Mia we appreciate how difficult it is for you to relive those moments and we are very grateful to you. Thank you. I wonder if Ms Khonele could now answer some questions please. DR BORAINE Hello Ms Khonele, can you hear me all right? MS KHONELE Yes I can hear you. DR BORAINE MS KHONELE When he came to Cape Town we were going to be given sites here in Cape Town, but he decided no we must come to Cape Town. Now - or he wanted to come here because he wanted to join his brother-in-law. We were told to go and register - to go and register all our sons, because as woman we were not allowed to have sites on our own. So he said to me I am going to work here in Cape Town, because he knew that we are going through a miserable life, he thought okay the best thing is to go to my brother-in-law in Cape Town. When we saw on TV - I am sorry Peza came in, I was very scared when I saw Peza and I said Peza what is it that you have to tell me. Say to me now - say it - say it now, Peza said he asked me where is Zabonke, I said he is in Cape Town. Then he said I am here I am sent by the comrade in Cape Town the ANC. Then I was told that your son Zabonke has been killed, there were seven. I was told that they were in a certain forest, him and somebody else. Him and someone else were asking for forgiveness, they held their hands up asking for forgiveness. I asked them where is he now, where is this new home that he has. So they took me to his place, that is now where - where I saw the mattress. When I saw him, I had this vision - after I was told and I regained my consciousness, I remember people were praying there. A Kombi arrived, people asked if I had arrived already and they were told yes I have. We were four mothers, then we were told to go to the mortuary. We all left for the mortuary and now my - my grandson was at work. I was asked who will accompany to the mortuary. The youth - the youth just was scattered all over the - all over. The youth now was throwing stones to the police, we were left on the gravesides with the priests and the youth were throwing stones to the police. After that now we went back - the funeral was a big-big occasion. After that I was so miserable. I had no where to go, I wanted that house, that shack, it was very difficult. Something told me to go and pick up coals, it was on a Thursday. I was knocked down by a rock, and this big rock hit me on my waist. I tried to move so that I can get some air, it was at eleven at that time, but they could only get me out of that rock around 5pm. When I was awake they put me into a van and I was taken to hospital. The doctors said to me I must just go away, I must go back under those rocks where I was before, I am no-one - I am nothing, what is ANC, what is ANC. DR BORAINE MS KHONELE DR BORAINE [indistinct] was killed. MS KHONELE DR BORAINE Oh! so he was a young man. MS KHONELE He was already too old when he got circumcised. But what I am trying to point out he was - circumcised, he as been circumcised now for three years, but his age I do not know. DR BORAINE Fine, I want to thank you very much for telling your story and about your experience and I am going to ask my Commissioners if they have any questions for any of the four who have given their testimony today. Please just feel very relaxed if the question is for you they will mention you by name, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mary. MS BURTON MS THEMBISO MS BURTON MS THEMBISO Even this name that certificate appears Simon and Godfrey. MS BURTON And is that wrong [indistinct] MS THEMBISO No, no those are his - those are his names, those are correct names actually. MS BURTON And the other question I want to ask is [intervention] CHAIRPERSON UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER You said to me before your daughter got lost before. MS THEMBISO Before that in 1985, she said to me she was going to Bloemfontein to my mother, that was the time - that was the time I saw her. The next time I saw here was the day Mr Mandela was released from jail. Even to my mother, she said to me she was going to Lesotho. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER MS THEMBISO If they say somebody is in exile then that means a struggle, the person is in the struggle. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Thank you. MS GOBODO MS THEMBISO They are at school, they are all - the three of them are here in Cape Town. MS GOBODO MS THEMBISO There are two daughters and one son. MS GOBODO How old is your son - is the son? MS THEMBISO Smolegi is going to be 12 years now. The second one who is the daughter is going to be 11 in October, Juvulile will be ten. MS GOBODO About the children mamma, what can we do to help mamma? MS THEMBISO The other two are with their mother, here - the last one, the second one, was dumped on me by her mother, she is now 11, that one now is with me even now. These other two they are with their mother. MS GOBODO Excuse me mamma Mia, I sorry, I am going to go back to the story that you told us. What I am trying to find out on the day that your son died, you said to me that he [intervention] MS THEMBISO Yes in the - during in the morning, he was from me, I gave him R2,00 we shared the R5,00 he said he was going to go and look for work. MS GOBODO Now did he have anything in his hand that would make somebody think that he is hiding so firearms somewhere, maybe in a bag or anywhere - anything else. MS THEMBISO MS GOBODO Was there anything that showed that he was armed? MS THEMBISO MS GOBODO And do you at home during this whole period you were living with him, was there anything that made you to be suspicious about any firearms where he usually sleeps. MS THEMBISO MS GOBODO In other words was there any period way there were arms at his place when he was still alive? When did you actually see - when was the first time you saw these arms? MS THEMBISO The first time I saw them was when he was dead already. The police said to me we are here to search for firearms because we heard that his has firearms. MS GOBODO According to your knowledge do you know if he has been to Russia? MS THEMBISO Oh! no he has never been to Russia. MR POTGIETER Sorry just - just on this last point that my colleague asked, was hi living with you all the time? MS THEMBISO Yes he was living with me all the time. He would just come into the kitchen to fetch his food during mealtimes. ADV POTGIETER [indistinct] MS THEMBISO Never. MS GOBODO You said something about the police, about the place where your children were shot. Did you ever hear - did you ever hear about police who was injured - something that was said in the news or that was said by somebody else about this injury? MS THEMBISO This is just something that I had thought for myself. I thought at least one of the police will come up and say this one has been injured by Jabulani but there was no other police that was injured by my son. MS GOBODO If these people were - were armed, that is your sons, I think that there must be some evidence of that. MS THEMBISO Is this why you were asking this question. MS GOBODO Yes that is why I am asking, if they were also armed, then it means one of the police could have been injured, thank you mamma. CHAIRPERSON Mary which one do you want now? MS BURTON This is a question really to all - all of them because we know that in addition to your four sons, there were three other young men who died that day. I just wanted to know whether any of you know anything more about them or where there families are now? MS THEMBISO MS BURTON We have - we have the names of two of them as being Themba Mlifi and Zenneth Mjobo, and - and there is still one name missing as far as we know. Do you know those names? MS THEMBISO We only know Mjobo, the other one is Swelani, this Mlifi we have no idea who he is. MS BURTON Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, thank you. MS GOBODO Again mamma I am going to go back, please forgive me for this, when this thing happened, I am not sure if you know that this is something that was highly published especially in the Cape Times. Did you know about this report in the Cape Times? MS NGEWU When I saw this in the newspapers they were called Guerrillas. These people were called Guerrillas. MS GOBODO Do you know any reports - do you know if these people were reported in the newspapers? MS NGEWU Yes I saw this in the newspapers. MS GOBODO Now what I want us to talk about really is there are reports that were made her by somebody who was called to Tommy Weaver, who was a reporter of Cape Times. I just want to find out if - what Tommy Weaver said is exactly what happened. Some of the things that he says are Christopher and Zabonke while they were already on the ground, the police came and finished them off, they shot them while they were already lying down on the ground, that is how the reporter says this. Did you hear that? MS NGEWU Yes I did. MS GOBODO Now this young man says again Christopher - Christopher in particular had 16 bullet wounds, did you hear that? MS NGEWU Yes I did. MS GOBODO There was this other one that you say you know nothing about Mlifi - Mlifi but there is something that says he was shot when his arms were up, which shows that he was already giving up and he - while he was also on the ground he was again shot. Did you hear all that? MS NGEWU Yes we heard that one of them had his arms up, but he was shot still. MS GOBODO According to this report two of these children and I think of them was Mandla - Simon [indistinct] the second one was Zenzile Mjobo, they said - this report says they chased to the forest and they were shot in the forest, did you get that report? MS NGEWU We heard that when it was said in Court. MS GOBODO Did you also hear that the police who were - who were mentioned a lot where police Barnard and Sergeant McMaster, did you hear that report? MS NGEWU MS GOBODO Can you remember Barnard? MS NGEWU Yes I can remember that one. MS GOBODO MS KHONELE It really hurt me, because it was the time when - it was the time when I was in pain after I have been hit by this big rock I was talking about. That time I was taken to [indistinct] hospital. Now I was already from Cape Town with her - with his daughter, now I went to hospital, the neighbours were struggling with me now. MS GOBODO Mamma how do you feel now, now that you are venting yourself in this Commission? MS KHONELE MS GOBODO MS KHONELE She is here in Cape Town she is now doing std 8. INTERPRETER I am sorry now the witness says the child is the same age as the father. MS GOBODO No, thank you mamma, mamma last question please. Mamma how do you feel - how do you feel now? MS KHONELE No you can ask. MS GOBODO The last time mamma, if now you can meet these people the people who injured your son, what message would you give them? MS KHONELE MS GOBODO Mothers I would like to say this to you, all of you if you can just see these people, if these people can come in front of you, what kind of a message would you say to them? MS NGEWU I personally feel what the Commission can do for me is that these people should be brought to justice. The whole nation must see these people and they must say why they shot our children, they must account for the death of our children, why would they drag my son, was he a dog? After I got - I was pregnant for nine months with my child, after killing them - after my child was killed they got promotions and they got more money. They were put in high positions, but today - Barnard also died like a dog, when I said - when I heard that, I said the way my father - my son died, will be the way all these people will die too. MS GOBODO Mamma I would like to ask a question to all of you, what is your wish - oh! I am sorry my Xhosa is not so good. I would like to ask you how can we honour your children. When I say we - I mean here and everybody else in here - how can we do that. MS NGEWU In connection with our children, nobody did this before but how they can be remembered is there were no memorial services done for them in Guguletu. That is something that we still feel that it should have been done. We feel that they were not important in the - in the nation at all. They are living with their families happily, our families are incomplete now, we are still crying - we still have this big lump in our throats. If - if they can be put here in front of us maybe that lump can go away. CHAIRPERSON Mothers we are grateful for the report that you have tabled in front of us, we are also grateful for you to be so brave to come and tell us all these details this afternoon. We are thankful for you to come over - to come to us to tell us your hurt. On our side we will and try and do what we can do as this Commission. We are also thankful for your gratitude, thank you.