hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1986-04-24 HEIDERVELD 3 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55169&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/heide/ct00205.htm CASE NO: CT/00205 VICTIM: NOMATISE EVELYN TSOBILEYO VIOLATION: SERIOUS INJURIES TESTIMONY FROM: NOMATISE EVELYN TSOBILEYO DR BORAINE You are Ms Tsobileyo, I am very glad to welcome you thank you very much for coming. You are not going to tell a story about someone else, you going to tell a story about yourself. I am sorry I should have waited for the earphones but I see you can understand, ja is that better, you can hear my voice. MS TSOBILEYO Yes I hear. DR BORAINE Fine, are you comfortable? MS TSOBILEYO Yes I am. DR BORAINE You not to nervous? MS TSOBILEYO I am nervous but not so much. DR BORAINE Not so much, well just remember that you are amongst friends and we want to help you to tell your story and Advocate Ntsebeza, Commissioner will help you to do just that, and I hope that you will find telling your story is going to be of great help to you as well as to the Commission, thank you. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you Dr Boraine, this is yet another of those stories that have become so too familiar and that took place or events of which took place in the Western Cape here. And the period is 1985, and that was a period of great conflagration in the communities here. You will recall that yesterday you were told the very sad story of the killing of Fuzile Petros Juqu who was killed on the 19th of February. And the event that you are about to hear was part of those conflicts which in a large measure was part of at that particular point in time, by yet a desire by the apartheid Government to enforce upon an unwilling public one of their policies of [indistinct] of our country. This particular instance was when they had decided that large communities of people should be removed from Crossroads, Guguletu to Khayelitsha a waste land about 50 kilometres from Cape Town. Our research department have in fact provided a very useful background again it was the [indistinct] of yet another Minister of State of the apartheid Government, Dr Viljoen who ironically was called Minister of Co-Operation and Development, who had announced that extra staff and transport were to be supplied to speedup preparations for the removal of residents of Crossroads to Khayelitsha. When the people resisted, and he had been told that this would be so, the apartheid machinery answered in the only way they knew how by unleashing their killing machine on a protesting public. Yet again people had to die, people had to be manned, people had to be injured in pursuit of a mad indefensible police. Nomatise’s story is an illustration of that madness for which unfortunately the cost again was very high. She’ll show you injuries that she sustained horrifying injuries but there are injuries which she will not be able to show you, because of the delicate place where they are located. DR BORAINE Could I interrupt you my colleague, I totally forgot to ask the witness to take the oath. It’s my fault I am glad that you gave the introduction which gave me a chance to do that and if you don’t mind I’d like to do that now and then please will you continue. Will you stand for the oath please. NOMATISE EVELYN TSOBILEYO Duly sworn states DR BORAINE I am sorry I forgot to ask you that. MS TSOBILEYO Okay. DR BORAINE Dumisa my apologies. ADV NTSEBEZA [indistinct] thank you Dr Boraine, I accept that. Mr Chairman I was indicating to you that you will see evidence for the attack on Evelyn Nomatise, but there are other injuries which she will only with difficulty tell you about because of the delicatessens of their location where they are. And it never fills [indistinct] who have to listen to these gory details. That the human mind sometimes become innovative in very perverse ways and that some of the methods in which the tortures express themselves was to go for the genitals of victims. I’ll put it at no higher than that. Nomatise now I am going to speak Xhosa with you, I am going to ask you to please bear with me, your pain is our pain as well. We hope that by your coming here today, the lump that you have in your throat all this time, is going to melt away. I am not sure if you are ready for us to begin. MS TSOBILEYO Yes we can begin. ADV NTSEBEZA For you to relax my sister, I would just ask you to please start and tell us who you are, where do you come from, where were you born and where did you grow up. Is your husband here with us, I thought he was going to sit here next to you so that he can say something as well. DR BORAINE If her husband is in the house would he please come forward. MS TSOBILEYO Can I say something. ADV NTSEBEZA Yes tell us your story. MS TSOBILEYO My name is Nomatise Tsobileyo, I was born at Emdeni, but I grew up in King Williams Town. I came to Cape Town to my parents who were working here that time, that was 1975. I came here since 1975, I am now staying at Khayelitsha Town 2, before we use to live at Crossroads, then in 1986 we went to live in Khayelitsha. ADV NTSEBEZA How long have you been married to your husband? MS TSOBILEYO We got married in 1990. ADV NTSEBEZA When this incident happened you hadn’t met yet. MS TSOBILEYO That time he was working in Johannesburg and I was here in Cape Town. ADV NTSEBEZA So you already knew each that time? MS TSOBILEYO Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA It was then obvious that - seeing that you already knew each other that time and you still together now, it means that he knows all these things. MS TSOBILEYO Yes he knows these things even though he wasn’t here that time he was in Johannesburg. ADV NTSEBEZA Now let’s all go back to that particular day, the 8th of February 1985. If I understand you well, interrupt me if I am wrong, there were riots at Cross Roads is that so? MS TSOBILEYO Yes it is. ADV NTSEBEZA These riots now were caused by the fact that people were told to go to Khayelitsha by force. It looks like in Khayelitsha there were not even proper houses that time. MS TSOBILEYO No they were just small houses at Khayelitsha and people were forced to go to Khayelitsha and people didn’t want these houses. ADV NTSEBEZA And it is very - is it difficult for you to go to town from Khayelitsha. MS TSOBILEYO Yes it’s very difficult because it’s far. ADV NTSEBEZA It’s very dry, it’s close to being [indistinct] it looks like a dessert, did it look like a place where if people go and live there, they were being thrown there. MS TSOBILEYO Yes, because there was not even transport at that time, it was just a deserted place. ADV NTSEBEZA What did you as the people of Nyanga East and Crossroads do especially those from Crossroads. When we - when you were told now to go and live by force at Khayelitsha. MS TSOBILEYO The comrades and I met with other comrades from KTC, Nyanga East and Crossroads. We marched to [indistinct] to complain about the forced removals. That morning of the 8th of February 1985, while we were still marching, no we still collecting each other that time, comrades from KTC and Nyanga East we met to - we met at Emdeni, the boers at that time had - were already aware of what we were doing. They started shooting at us and tear gasses, we went through the shacks and we would also turn back again trying to continue with our march. But we went to [indistinct]. ADV NTSEBEZA Who organised this march. MS TSOBILEYO I am sorry I can’t hear that. ADV NTSEBEZA Who organised this march? MS TSOBILEYO We comrades organised this march. ADV NTSEBEZA Now when you say the police shot you, was there anybody who told you that what you doing is illegal? MS TSOBILEYO No nobody gave us any notice. ADV NTSEBEZA The police just saw a crowd of people and they shot? MS TSOBILEYO Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA Did you have, were you armed? MS TSOBILEYO No we were not armed. ADV NTSEBEZA No what was your offence, you only say now was that you were - you refused to go to a place where you didn’t want to go. MS TSOBILEYO Yes that is so. ADV NTSEBEZA Where you satisfied with the place you were already living in? MS TSOBILEYO Yes we were. ADV NTSEBEZA Now let’s go back, let’s go back to the scene where you were being tear gassed, what happened after that? MS TSOBILEYO We were running through the shacks, only to find out also the boers were going through these shacks after us. And when we turned back, I turned back alone I was trying to find other comrades I couldn’t see them. I could feel the tear - I could feel the gas coming through my eyes and I - I went to the toilet to - to hide. And I thought that here I am going to get injured because I can’t see the others. When I got out of this toilet, I saw one boer only to find that he also saw me, he shot at me. ADV NTSEBEZA Where did he shoot you? MS TSOBILEYO He shot me on my left arm - leg, then I fell end of Tape 13, side A … [indistinct] now I don’t know where they got a Kombi, but they put me into the Kombi. They took me into a house where I was bleeding so heavily that the basin that used to collect my blood was full. At Crossroads the boers tried to prevent people from going in there. The doctor who - who phones for the ambulance, had problems because the problems - the ambulance were not allowed to come in - to come to Crossroads. The ambulance were not allowed to come into the clinic that I was in. So I was taken by a Kombi together with this doctor, we went to a certain Main Road that’s where we saw the ambulance. Now the people of the ambulance drove so fast that they didn’t want the police to see them. Now we went to Tygerberg, I was put onto the first floor in the Tygerberg Hospital and the police were on guard that time, guarding me. They asked me were we throwing stones at them, so now I told - I told them I didn’t throw any stones at you, I was just from work. Sometimes I wouldn’t answer their questions. They would exchange - somebody - would be somebody else asking this questions at night and somebody else during the day while I was in hospital in pain. ADV NTSEBEZA Were you in pain? MS TSOBILEYO Yes I was in pain and they were busy asking me questions while I was in pain, I was the only one in this ward. ADV NTSEBEZA They actually never waited for you to be healed before they asked the questions? MS TSOBILEYO No sometimes it was too painful for me to say anything so I didn’t answer some of their questions. I can’t remember how long I was in hospital, I was changed from that floor to a G-floor that’s where I slept. The police didn’t come to the G-floor the last time I saw them was when I was on the first floor. ADV NTSEBEZA How long did you stay in hospital and when did you come out? MS TSOBILEYO I got out of the hospital in April but I can’t remember the date. ADV NTSEBEZA So in other words you stayed for 2½ months. MS TSOBILEYO Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA What kind of treatment did you get? MS TSOBILEYO They kept on cutting my leg, because my leg was in plaster - I asked them to take the plaster out because my wound was too sore, so I asked them to take it out. ADV NTSEBEZA You nearly lost your leg? MS TSOBILEYO Yes, they were patching my leg. ADV NTSEBEZA Were they patching the wound? MS TSOBILEYO Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA Is it called skin graft? MS TSOBILEYO Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA Let’s go back to the scene of where you were shot. Did you two see each other at the same time, you and this white policeman? MS TSOBILEYO Yes we saw each other at the same time, he was wearing blue uniform. ADV NTSEBEZA Did he tell you to stop? MS TSOBILEYO No he didn’t. He just turned around and shot me. ADV NTSEBEZA And now when you were down, what did you do? MS TSOBILEYO No I didn’t see him after I fell because the comrades quickly came in. ADV NTSEBEZA After you got out of the hospital where did you go? MS TSOBILEYO When I left the hospital I went to Crossroads my own house, where I use to live and I was told to come back again for more treatment at Tygerberg Hospital. On the first day of my treatment I told them I don’t have more money to keep coming back. So I asked them to give me a free ticket for the bus. Nobody answered me there, so that was the last time I went for that treatment. From there I went to Kwa-Noxolo Clinic where I - I use to pay R0,50 and sometimes I wouldn’t have the R0,50 and I will stay at home then. Now because my mother was working, he use to bring me Betadine from her work and I use to use it as treatment. The boers kept on coming at my place but luckily for me, they would come at a time when I am not in. And I left and I went to stay at Crossroads. My mother told me not to stay there, because the boers will know where I am and would come and search for me. So she told me to go and - to go home to King Williams Town. So I left around October. Then I came back in June 1986 and they were again riots at Crossroads. Now that was a time when people were forced to go to Khayelitsha, I was one of those. ADV NTSEBEZA Could you please show the Archbishop and the Commission your scar on your leg. That isn’t the only place where you got injured is it? MS TSOBILEYO No. ADV NTSEBEZA Some of the bullets are still in your body. MS TSOBILEYO Yes I have several bullets in my body, some are still in my leg, some are somewhere in my body some under - underneath. Some of the bullets are in my vagina. ADV NTSEBEZA Obviously those bullets didn’t just fly on their own to where they are now. MS TSOBILEYO These bullets were - these were the first bullets that was shot at me. CHAIRPERSON Thank you - any questions - Mary Burton. MS BURTON It’s all right Ms Tsobileyo you don’t have to rush. When you went to the Kwa-Noxolo Clinic in Crossroads, that was the first place you went to get help is that right? INTERPRETER I am sorry ladies and gentleman I can’t hear the witness. MS BURTON I’ll repeat the question, when you were first injured you went to get help and treatment at the Kwa-Noxolo Clinic in Crossroads is that right? MS TSOBILEYO Yes. MS BURTON Do you remember the name of the doctor who treated you there. MS TSOBILEYO No I can’t remember. MS BURTON Do you remember if it was a man or a woman doctor? MS TSOBILEYO No. MS BURTON No, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any other, thank you very much my sister, please have forgiveness in you. We hope that you will be healed spiritually and physically thank you. MS TSOBILEYO Thank you very much sir. ADV NTSEBEZA Can I just ask one question I just remembered. We didn’t ask you sister because of your pain now, is there anything that you would like the Commission to help you with. MS TSOBILEYO Seeing that I am not working and I have four children, only my husband is working and he doesn’t pay much. Seeing that the Commission can see how I am I would appreciate it if can do something for me. ADV NTSEBEZA About your children, are they at school? MS TSOBILEYO The eldest - the eldest is 12 years and he is doing std 5. The one after that is 9 years, the one after that is 4 and the last is 1 year. ADV NTSEBEZA So you have intentions that your children should go to school.. MS TSOBILEYO Yes I want them to continue schooling. But it’s very difficult. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you. MS TSOBILEYO More over I will really like to help to get treatments from the hospital for my leg, because sometimes it gets very painful especially when it’s hot, it gets too hot, especially if I am asleep it becomes too hot. It swells most of the time, then I have to take it out the bed. ADV NTSEBEZA Do you think there is any other help that you can get from any specialist? You think that any specialist can help you with this, just to take out some of the bullets in your body, do you think the - do you want the Commission to get those people? MS TSOBILEYO Yes, I would appreciate it. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much.