hrvtrans HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION HEARINGS 1995-04-25 HEIDERVELD 4 CT/00302 ANTON FRANSCH MARK E FRANSCH [brother], BASIL SNAYER [neighbour] SHOT AND KILLED https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55170&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/heide/ct00302.htm DR BORAINE Anton Fransch - I beg your pardon Mark Eugene Fransch. MR FRANSCH Yes. DR BORAINE We want to welcome you very warmly to the Commission and express our appreciation to you for your readiness and willingness to share your story and your grief with us today. You are accompanied by Basil Snayer who is a neighbour I think, or certainly was and will be - and was a witness to the story that you will tell and he will tell his story as well about your brother. You are Mr Snayer. MR SNAYER Yes. DR BORAINE Mark Fransch would you please stand. I am going to ask you to take the oath. MARK EUGENE FRANSCH Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Basil Snayer in the same way I would like to ask you please to take the oath. MARK SNAYER Duly sworn states DR BORAINE DR BORAINE Now I wonder if we could begin by your telling the Commission something of your own background, your family, where you come from, something about your parents, your family, yourself. And then we can - before we go on to the very tragic story that will unfold. Is that all right, fine. MR FRANSCH I am Mark of course, this is Donovan and Brian next to me. DR BORAINE Are they your brothers? MR FRANSCH Ja they all my brothers. DR BORAINE Well a very special word of welcome to you both, thank you. MR FRANSCH DR BORAINE Sure, does she know that you are here today? MR FRANSCH Yes. DR BORAINE Fine. MR FRANSCH And I am actually handling everything. DR BORAINE Fine, thank you. And are you working at the moment? MR FRANSCH Yes I am working, I am a cabinet maker by trade, my own business. DR BORAINE Now you have several brothers obviously. MR FRANSCH Yes. DR BORAINE Anton was one of them, where did he come in the family? MR FRANSCH He was the second youngest. DR BORAINE Okay. MR FRANSCH In the family. DR BORAINE Tell us a little bit about him, I mean anything you like. MR FRANSCH To tell you the honest truth he was a committed member of the ANC and no - no matter who tried to stop him, he just went ahead and through that he - he was wanted by the police and he was Police File and he was still - he was standing next to me that evening he was on Police File, so they said he skipped the country, he is wanted. But he was standing next to me. DR BORAINE You watched the program together. MR FRANSCH Yes and so he felt the need to actually go away. DR BORAINE Okay. MR FRANSCH He went away for something like about two years. DR BORAINE Any idea where he went to? MR FRANSCH DR BORAINE He - but he was away from home? MR FRANSCH He was away from home, and like when he came back I believe my mother saw him and the last time she actually saw him, he was very sick and he assured her that what he is actually doing is to actually help her as well. DR BORAINE Okay, so he was very much involved in the struggle for freedom or justice is how he would express that. MR FRANSCH Yes. DR BORAINE MR FRANSCH DR BORAINE Ja. MR FRANSCH DR BORAINE Ja. MR FRANSCH I mean the whole part of his body was blown away. DR BORAINE That must have been a very grim experience for you I am sorry. Just take your time there is no hurry. Mark can you remember where that was, where did the actual killing take place. MR FRANSCH It was in Crawford. DR BORAINE Okay. MR FRANSCH In Church Street. DR BORAINE Church Street and that was a normal house was it. MR FRANSCH It was a normal double-storey house. DR BORAINE Okay, did he live there on his own or was he staying with - with people? MR FRANSCH He was staying with people there. DR BORAINE Okay, did - what happened to them, do you know? MR FRANSCH They were in the house still. DR BORAINE I see. MR FRANSCH DR BORAINE Okay, I see but you know when the attack took place and the shots were fired and the mortars and all sorts of things that happened that night, what happened to the family who - with whom he was staying were they quite safe? MR FRANSCH They were quite safe. DR BORAINE MR FRANSCH DR BORAINE Were flattened? MR FRANSCH Ja of the flat. DR BORAINE Okay, tell me your brother, how old was he when he died? MR FRANSCH He was - how old - he was 20 years old. DR BORAINE 20 Years old. MR FRANSCH Yes. DR BORAINE MR FRANSCH Yes. DR BORAINE MR FRANSCH Sorry. DR BORAINE Was there an inquest or a Court case about his death? MR FRANSCH Yes there was an inquest about his death. DR BORAINE What was the cause of death, I mean did they establish that? MR FRANSCH DR BORAINE Okay, what was the conclusion, what - what decision did the Court find. MR FRANSCH I believe they said he bombed himself. DR BORAINE He bombed himself, okay. So the decision of the Court was that your brother committed suicide. MR FRANSCH Yes. DR BORAINE Okay, were you represented with lawyers? MR FRANSCH Only the lawyer was there at the inquest, my mother could not make it to be there, because she was very-very sick. DR BORAINE Sure. MR FRANSCH I wanted to actually represent him as well, but they did not allow that. DR BORAINE I see, so only your lawyer was there and no members of the family? MR FRANSCH No member of the family. DR BORAINE I see, can you remember the name of the lawyer? MR FRANSCH It was Mr Mohammed. DR BORAINE Mr Mohammed okay and the practice, the lawyer was that Moosa. MR FRANSCH E Moosa and Associates. DR BORAINE Okay, thank you very much. Now this must have distressed not only you but the other members of your family and especially your mother. Do you want to tell us a bit about that? MR FRANSCH DR BORAINE Ja. MR FRANSCH DR BORAINE Right. MR FRANSCH And I mean all of us - we really miss him. DR BORAINE Of course - do you - is your father alive. MR FRANSCH Yes my father is still alive. DR BORAINE And has been affected as well. MR FRANSCH Yes partly. DR BORAINE MR FRANSCH My mother [intervention] DR BORAINE And of course you and your brothers. MR FRANSCH Yes. DR BORAINE I see, I am not going to pursue this - these questions because there is a witness who I understand actually saw what happened, so what I am going to suggest is that we let you relax a little bit and that we heard the second witness. But before I do that, I want to consult with my colleagues to find out if they want to ask you questions before or after Basil speaks to us. Advocate Ntsebeza. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you Dr Boraine, you - I just want to clear up something that apparently you said in your - in the statement to the Commission, statement takers. Did you say that you came to the scene after the event. MR FRANSCH Yes I did. ADV NTSEBEZA And did you say that you found parts of his body plastered to the wall as if he had been ripped up by an explosion. MR FRANSCH Not - part - part of his flesh. ADV NTSEBEZA Parts of his flesh? MR FRANSCH Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA Were plastered to the body - the wall? MR FRANSCH Yes. ADV NTSEBEZA Now and did your mother see that scene as well? MR FRANSCH Yes she did. ADV NTSEBEZA Okay, thank you, I just wanted to clear that up. CHAIRPERSON Dr Wendy Orr. DR ORR Mark what would you like the Truth Commission to do for you and your family? MR FRANSCH DR RANDERA Mark you talked about the day that your brother died and a little about the inquest, can you tell us about - a little about what the response of the authorities was between the death and the actual inquest when you went to the police station or other authorities you dealt with in terms of explanations as to what happened. MR FRANSCH DR BORAINE Mr Snayer, Basil - a welcome to you as well I am sure the family are very grateful to you for your willingness to assist us to establish as much of what happened that night as it possible. First let me ask you, you - where do you live? MR SNAYER Doctor I - I live in a house at 148 Church Street. DR BORAINE Right. MR SNAYER In Athlone. DR BORAINE Thank you and where - what - where did Anton stay before he was killed? MR SNAYER At the house next to mine. DR BORAINE MR SNAYER Right next-door. DR BORAINE Okay, now you knew Anton did you or only afterwards you realise who it was there. Did you - aware of the family? MR SNAYER DR BORAINE MR SNAYER No I had no idea. DR BORAINE Okay, thank you. Now you have told us that you heard shots being fired, approximately what time was that when you first heard that? MR SNAYER It must of been between about 12:30 and 12:45 the morning. I remember that because I had been out rehearsing with the band I play for. DR BORAINE Okay. MR SNAYER DR BORAINE MR SNAYER Ja. DR BORAINE You must of - I mean how did you feel when you started hearing gun firing it must of been very close. MR SNAYER Ja terrified and of course one immediately reacts to - to that and the proximity of the sound immediately made me and my wife fall flat on the kitchen floor and I entered my way to the telephone - phoned my neighbour to find out whether he knew what was going on. His response to me was that there could be a shooting in - between people either in his backyard or just outside in the street at the back of his property. DR BORAINE What happened after that? MR SNAYER And that obviously made me more terrified because of - of how I began to interpret things from that point onwards. I had two - I made my own deduction it could be one of two things at that point. It could have been a possible perpetrator of the - or offender of the Law who had been cornered or it could have been a freedom fighter who - who had been surrounded by the police. I then went back into the back room where my family was with our housekeeper. I then became aware of people walking around in the back street in and out of the gate, in my backyard past that window and everybody was armed. Some had taken position on the property opposite my house, opposite the street in the back, also armed and shooting. I then closed the window and proceeded to go to the front of the house and at that point I - my thought was to evacuate my house for the safety of my family. DR BORAINE Just - may I stop you there just for a moment. A rough estimate when you looked out of the window and saw people coming and going and all armed, how many do you think approximately are we talking about, two or three or more? MR SNAYER Oh! no I - it must have been more, I saw at least three people cross the road and in the - in the other property at the same time as people were moving in and out it might have been those moving in and out and passed the window - might have been the same people. DR BORAINE Sure. MR SNAYER But before when I - when I - when I wanted to or before I wanted to evacuate the house, I went to peep through the front door - window, the front bedroom window and saw there were also policeman patrolling in the garden outside. At that point I thought it wise not to - not to attempt to evacuate the house. DR BORAINE Okay, what happened after that? MR SNAYER Then at - at around that time, when the vehicle had gone passed again, I then heard it revving up. It speeded up and rammed the wall of Mr Noordien my neighbour next-door, rammed the wall about three attempts were made before the wall gave and the Casspir then parked right opposite in very - very close proximity to the apartment where - where Anton was apparently living. It was at that there was an increase in the gun fire and also in the - in the type of sound that I heard. Only to discover afterwards of course that there were huge holes in the wall, both outer and inner walls right through the wall. Soon after - after this exercise of the Casspir, I went back to the room to report to my wife what was happening. And then I heard the front door bell ringing and I went to see who was there. A person who identified him as either Sergeant or Captain Brazelle said [intervention] DR BORAINE Sorry could you just repeat that Brazelle. MR SNAYER I - I believe it was Sergeant or Captain Brazelle or Brezel or something to that nature. DR BORAINE Okay, thank you. MR SNAYER I - I began to feel increasingly compromised by a situation over which I had no control and which clearly could in my view have - have degenerated into a - into a situation where from which ever side, my house could have been blown up with my - with my family in it. Then I went into a room adjacent to the back room where I - where I had spend much of my time that morning and at around 7:45 the morning about ja about quarter to eight, I became aware of a policeman on the - on the roof lying or crouching and a hand or arm movement which could have been either trying to catch something that had fallen or throwing something. There were bits of clothing on the floor, against the wall - the walls and ceiling were blood spattered all - all over. Bits of what I - I can only describe as hair or some sort and flesh were also strewn around and - and smeared or whatever onto the wall. And that - that ended a - I suppose an episode in our lives as a family which we will never forget. But I want to end by saying that I agreed to testify here today not - not simply because the truth must be told. I also agreed because the impressions created by claims that young cadres like Anton and Ashley Kriel, Robbie Waterwitch, Coline Williams and many-many others, were communists or young people misguided by communists. That myth should be exploded once and for all. That I believe that a brave soldier died in the service of his country. I also believe that I owe it to the family who were not given the chance to say goodbye. DR BORAINE I thank you very much Mr Snayer I - I know that the family obviously are very grateful and we as a Commission are always grateful when people who actually were at the scene and can tell what happened come before the Commission so that we get some - some glimpse of what was going on. You told us this was in November 1989. MR SNAYER Yes. DR BORAINE MR SNAYER DR BORAINE Your children? MR SNAYER The boys went through a similar phase I think, but just the - just probably the memory of - and the awareness at that time that - that people actually did not have access to or real access to complaining about those kinds of things. DR BORAINE Can you remember - think very carefully, can you remember hearing or witnessing shots, fire coming from a house towards your house or across the road of the police being fired upon. Have you any recollection of that at all? MR SNAYER Well from - from my advantage point there was - there was - there was very little chance of me saying in which direction shots were going. DR BORAINE Okay. MR SNAYER I suppose if any bullets had - had either come through the window they would have made marks. DR BORAINE Sure. MR SNAYER DR BORAINE Ja. MR SNAYER DR BORAINE From the house, so there may well have been [intervention] MR SNAYER That is possible ja. DR BORAINE Ja, a final question then is - there was an inquest, were you called or summonsed or requested to give evidence at that inquest? MR SNAYER No. DR BORAINE The lawyer never approached you? MR SNAYER No. DR BORAINE MR SNAYER DR BORAINE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, any questions, Dr Wendy Orr. DR ORR Mr Snayer thank you for - for telling us of what must have been a really terrifying experience. To clear the sequence of events in my mind about what time did this Captain or Sergeant Brazelle come into your house? MR SNAYER DR ORR So the shooting had already been going on for some time when he came in. MR SNAYER DR ORR MR SNAYER No in fact I - I made that suggestion after I had - on my own before the police entered my house, thought of that idea of evacuating the house. But in peeping through the window and seeing that there were police in the front of the house I decided against it. But when they had chosen to enter my house. I had made that suggestion again to this Captain or Sergeant Brazelle who refused point blank that - that I should leave there. That was certainly an option or a concern for me. DR ORR So you and obviously other families in the neighbourhood were in constant danger during that [intervention] MR SNAYER Absolutely. DR ORR Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Dr Randera. DR RANDERA MR SNAYER CHAIRPERSON Dumisa Ntsebeza. ADV NTSEBEZA Ja, now do you have an indication or can you formulate an impression in your mind as to what size police force there was on that day. MR SNAYER ADV NTSEBEZA Approximately? MR SNAYER I would say approximately - you see if I take the Casspir into consideration and - I would say at least about 35 - 40. ADV NTSEBEZA I see and from your impression it was clear that there were pursuing one person. MR SNAYER Absolutely. ADV NTSEBEZA Now the question is, did you as a community ever establish who this alleged accomplice was, who had been arrested in Kromboom Road earlier on and were tipped off the police? MR SNAYER Not to my knowledge. ADV NTSEBEZA And in any event, as just a related question did you consider that the police could have used some other methods of either arresting or causing this man to be flushed out - out of that- of that house. MR SNAYER I - I have no doubt in my mind that, that for me was also part of the motivation for me to agree to this - to this testimony. I - I am convinced that if the will was there, Anton could have been gassed out, starved out if it took seven days in order to gain intelligence for whatever purpose. ADV NTSEBEZA Now correct me if I am wrong. Do I understand that your own impression is that the police never came there to take a prisoner. MR SNAYER To? ADV NTSEBEZA To take a prisoner, they came to kill one. MR SNAYER No - no the impression I got from the size of the task force - impression from the statements heard during the next, during the morning and the attitude of the people who entered my house, gave me the impression that the purpose of the exercise was a military attack on a - on an enemy and that for me went - meant a kind of kill or be killed situation. Now your testimony suggested that there was this person police person who was on the roof who threw something and then thereafter, there was an explosion. Now one can conclude from that, that the something that was being thrown in was a detonating substance like a hand grenade. Now I would like to hear your comments on a police version that they gave subsequently. They said Anton died of a grenade blast that he detonated himself. What would your comment be in view of what you saw? MR SNAYER My impression is that the time lapse between the action, the arm action of the person I saw and the explosion could very well be that a - an explosive device had been rolled into the - into the window. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON And thank you very much for your testimony - both of you. And for our part as the Commission will seek to get to the bottom of all of what we hear and try and establish what the truth is, but we also want to express our deep sympathies for - for all concerned and the [indistinct] accounts of events, thank you. MR SNAYER Thank you. ADV NTSEBEZA I just wanted to find out from Mr Snayer whether the photographer Ghool ever got to the scene and if he did, whether he took any photographs, that might assist us in wanting to [intervention] MR SNAYER ADV NTSEBEZA And he still has then. MR SNAYER ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you.