hrvtrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATIOIN COMMISSION 1996-04-23 HEIDERVELD 2 CT/00304 ZENZELI ERIC MAY ZENZELI ERIC MAY, TANGO LAMANI TORTURE AND SOLITARY CONFINEMENT https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55171&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/heide/ct00304.htm DR BORAINE ZENELI ERIC MAY Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Thank you very much, will you be seated please. And Mr Lamani you are also going to address the Commission, would you please stand. TANGO LAMANI Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Thank you very much, please be seated. Mr May you will start, you have a horrible story of harassment, of detention, of torture, of accusation and in order to assist you to tell that story, Mary Burton will lead you, thank you. MS BURTON Good morning Mr May. MR MAY Morning. MS BURTON Would you like to testify in Xhosa or in English? MR MAY Both. MS BURTON MR MAY I can testify in English and Xhosa as well. MS BURTON Okay if you want to use the earphones you are welcome to do so for the translation. MR MAY Okay. MS BURTON MR MAY MS BURTON And the story that you are going to tell us today is one of interrogation, detention for long periods, harassment and in fact also smearing your name. MR MAY MS BURTON MR MAY MS BURTON Would you like to tell us a little bit about what happen then? MR MAY MS BURTON MR MAY And then we were told to come back on the 11th of September 1980. So when we came back to the school, the school yard was filled with police men holding whips and batons. So when they saw me and a group of students coming towards the school they said here is the man we were looking for, and then they chased me around. And there were lot of police vans around, and I tried to run away but they caught up with me. So I was beaten up and then until I pretended to be dead, and then they loaded me at the back of the police van and then - by that time a group of students have gathered in the school yard and around the school and the policemen were charging towards the students. And subsequently the policemen who was driving the police van drove me to Whittlesea police station where I was kept for few hours. And then after he had discussions with the Station Commander of the Whittlesea police station and then he took me with him to the police van that was waiting outside. So he lifted me up and pushed me into the cage that was meant for police dogs, and he drove with me to Queenstown with the gate open. And then I was - my body was wounded because of the beatings by the Ciskei police,. And then we arrived in Queenstown in the late afternoon so they took me into the cells. And then the following day another Security policeman he introduced himself as Sergeant Jordaan of the Security Branch in Queenstown. They took me to their offices where they interrogated me,. They wanted to know about COSAS activities, which I told because by that time they had our minute book and then they wanted to know the people who were backing us like old people in Queenstown. And then I said I have no knowledge of any person old person who was influencing us. They particularly mentioned Mr [indistinct] Sondlo that he was the man, I mean the suspect was behind us and then they were influencing us to promote the aims of the ANC. But I said we know nothing about the ANC we were just a student organization and were interested only in students affairs. And then - so they do that - did that almost - for almost three months. And then I was held under solitary confinement for the whole period. And then after about five months Captain - Sergeant Jordaan came to the cell, he opened the cell and told me that your mother is dead and you are not going to bury her. And then he closed the cell and then he left me there. So I the [indistinct] that my mother is dead, but we had a way of communicating with the outside public in the cells. So I sent the message outside to ask if that was true, but somebody else told me that it was not true, my mother was there still alive. So they kept me thinking that I was being frustrated because of that. And then after six months there were about fourteen of us held in - in fact detained in that period and then we were transferred to Fort Glamogan Maximum security prison in East London. So we were still kept in solitary confinement for that period and then after two months we were charged for terrorism. And then the trial went on for a month and I was discharged. There was no evidence against me. MS BURTON Sorry to interrupt you, by then it was about early 1981, was it about that period? MR MAY At the end of 1981. MS BURTON End of 1981 okay. MR MAY And then when the trial was over I went to stay in Port Elizabeth and most of the COSAS leadership at this stage was out of prison. And at the beginning of 1982 we started to regroup again and form - established COSAS branches again. And then in February I went to Johannesburg I attended the funeral of Neil Agget who was - who died in detention at that stage. And then my brother answered the door and then some people came in, they said they are looking for Mr May, when he said he was Mr May they said no we are not looking for you, we are looking for your brother. So he - they woke me up and took me to Sanlam police cells in Port Elizabeth, and then there were about four policemen. And then they asked if I could be their informer, and then I would be paid for that but I said to them I was not looking for employment. I was a student so I cannot I mean do that kind of a thing. And besides I was part of COSAS leadership so if I could attempt to implicate some other leaders of COSAS that would mean implicating myself as well so I could not do such that kind of a thing. So they said okay they will deal with me and then they released me at the early hours of the day. And then after about two weeks I heard from other COSAS members that there was a receipt that was found at the place we used to frequent in New Brighton, Port Elizabeth. And this receipt had my name on it and a certain amount of R500,00 or R600,00 which to some other people meant that maybe I was a paid up police informer. MS BURTON Thank you Mr May there are a couple of questions that I would like to ask you. In the - in the statement that you gave to our statement takers there is a mention of police officer called Tonzata but I think now you said Tongata. MR MAY Tongata ja. MS BURTON Just so that we get that straight - Tongata. And the other person then in the - on that occasion in the Sanlam offices in PE was Roelofse is that right? MR MAY MS BURTON Now, and they are the people that you suspect of spreading the information that you were now acting for them as a paid informer is that right? MR MAY I suspect them to be part of that group that is responsible for that. MS BURTON One of the coup that you had was that there was an attempt to get your handwriting, could you tell about that. MR MAY When they detained me that evening, they made me to write certain sentences repeatedly, I was writing on an A4 page and then at the bottom of the page they asked me sign. MS BURTON And they were the same people who threatened to do to you the same as what happened to Siphiwo Mthimkulu. MR MAY They were the same people. MS BURTON You mentioned also in your statement somebody who had told you that the rumor was circulating that you had been persuaded to act as an informer. MR MAY Yes it was Fundile Mafungosi whose is at present national organizer of AZAPO. He came from the executive meeting and told me that there was this information that has been discussed by COSAS executive .and that the executive was divided because of this issue, so they do not know how to deal with it. MS BURTON Also some people do not want to believe it and some of them want to believe it. Would you say that, that was something that was done quite often in those days? MR MAY Yes, some people told us some people were taken by the Security police and driven around the township against their will creating the impression that they were friends of the police or were part of the Security police so as to confuse the public. MS BURTON Is there anything that we have left out you want to tell the Commission? MR MAY No. MS BURTON UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER [indistinct] forces, to spread a rumor and an impression that somebody was their informer - was to move the person around in the townships with them against their will MR MAY UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER And did that then create the impression was acting in cahoots with the Security Forces? MR MAY That is correct. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER And was if not so that on some occasions having done that they would release the person even though the person was a known activist and had been active in the township. MR MAY Sometimes they would release you into an area where they know that the sentiments of the public are very high and if the public have seen you driving around with Security police they would think that you are their informer and you would be killed. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER In fact is it not solve that perhaps to your knowledge documented cases of people were killed by the necklace method as a consequence of those who have skills to spread the rumor about people being informers. MR MAY Definitely yes, although some of the murders were committed by the people in the townships. But the real people behind those murders were the Security people. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Yes, now is it your view or an impression that your handwriting was being sought by the police in order for them to use it on the receipt that allegedly indicated that you had been receiving money from the police? MR MAY UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER And is it your believe that the receipt was deliberately left at the place where it could be seen by your comrades therefore perpetuating the impression that you are receiving money from the security police? MR MAY Yes, I believe so they deliberately left that receipt so as to divide COSAS. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Was this strategy and I hear you that the strike was aimed at dividing COSAS. But are you in agreement that it could also have caused great harm to you, you could have been killed? MR MAY Yes, I - I believe that UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER And can you tell the Commission how you felt when it appeared that some of your best friends were accepting that you were an informer? MR MAY I was very humiliated and embarrassed because there were lot of other people young people, for example students who were looking at us as role models. And so to hear that I mean some of these people they were regarded - that they regarded as role models were also working for the security police, it was really embarrassing and humiliating experience. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER MR MAY Yes, I decided not to take part to any political activity until this matter has been - at least proved to be incorrect UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER MR MAY I feel that there should be further investigations into the matter and it should be exposed as police lies. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Ja thank you, now one final aspect that I want to cover, you mentioned Mthimkulu both in your testimony when being asked by my colleague, Mary Burton and in your statements. Now this Mthimkulu, you are referring to, are you referring to the gentleman who was called Siphiwo Mthimkulu? MR MAY UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Is he the person who was arrested in Port Elizabeth and was severely tortured in detention? MR MAY UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Is he the gentleman who was released from hospital - I mean from prison but needed hospital treatment in Port Elizabeth? MR MAY Yes, I am referring to him. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER MR MAY Yes, I do UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER And he is also the person who was transferred to Groote Schuur Hospital here in Cape Town, as a consequence of the pain that he received in prison. MR MAY Yes. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Is he the man that was diagnosed and was treated for thallium poisoning? MR MAY UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any other - Denzil? ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson, just Mr May in regard to Mr Mthimkulu, who was it that reminded you of the fate of what happened to Mr Mthimkulu? MR MAY It was Mr Roelofse of the security branch in Port Elizabeth. ADV POTGIETER In Port Elizabeth? MR MAY Yes ADV POTGIETER Was he - was he on his own when he reminded you of that? MR MAY No, there were some other guys I think there was Tongata and also Niewoudt as well he was in that group as well ADV POTGIETER And Tongata was also a - or might even still be, a member of the police? MR MAY Yes, he is one of the Security police guys in Port Elizabeth ADV POTGIETER And Niewoudt? MR MAY And Niewoudt as well ADV POTGIETER Did you - did you come to know these - these police people when you were down in Port Elizabeth? MR MAY ADV POTGIETER Have you - have you received or become aware of any lately - recently of any news of Niewoudt? MR MAY ADV POTGIETER Which proceedings is that? MR MAY ADV POTGIETER Have you got any knowledge whether Mr Niewoudt is presently on trial for any charges? MR MAY ADV POTGIETER Thank you - just a regarding to the allegation that you were a police informer, was it also alleged that you were receiving money from the police at that stage? MR MAY Ja. ADV POTGIETER Was that a specific allegation against you, that was made against you. MR MAY Now, at this stage you were in Port Elizabeth if I understand your evidence correctly. MR MAY ADV POTGIETER Now, what did you - what did you do after this rumor was spread against you, did you have to leave there? MR MAY ADV POTGIETER Did you eventually leave Port Elizabeth? MR MAY So again whilst I was working for the breweries I think a personal officer in 1985 asked me how did I get employment om Port Elizabeth - in fact at the breweries because senior management were concerned of the activities of the union within the company and that there were there quite a number of activists who were employed and I was one of them. And they wanted him to explain how he employed us, it was a black personnel officer. But I explained to him that he was not the guy who employed me, I was employed by a white personnel officer so they should rather direct those questions to him not to the black guy. ADV POTGIETER Mr May, thank you very much. MR MAY Okay. MS SOOKA MR MAY MS SOOKA Now the second question is, I know that you asking the Commission to help clear your name, but is there anything else that you would like the Commission to consider? MR MAY No, all I want is for these guys to acknowledge their illegal activities and clear my name. MS SOOKA Thank you. MR MAY Nothing else. DR BORAINE And they suffered it under the law which was commonly known as the 90 days Act and then later on the 180 days, where the - you could be held by the authorities without trial for that particular period. Can you recall how many days or how many months were you kept under detention or told, the total period, have you ever worked that out? MR MAY I think I was held for over - for about eleven months. Two months in Mdantsane, East London under Ciskei Security Laws and then nine months under S.A. Security Laws. I was held under Section 6 of the Terrorism Act. DR BORAINE Ja and when you were held were you in solitary confinement or were you with a group of other people or what were conditions like? MR MAY I was held on solitary confinement, the conditions in Queenstown were better off than in East London because I was held in a bigger cell and also the food was better there. But when we were transferred to East London the conditions were definitely very - very bad. The cells were moist and then when you lift the mat you were sleeping on you would find that there was moist and some fungi underneath that mat. They were very small cells, and there was - so we were not allowed to speak to or to sing, to do anything, you were just allowed to be in that cell at all the time. DR BORAINE MR MAY No-no it was not. DR BORAINE No. MR MAY But there were calling it a Blue Train, so that [indistinct] DR BORAINE Ja, can you describe for the Commission some of your own feelings and impression particularly a period of nine months in solitary confinement without trial. How did you feel about that, how did you cope with that?. What was happening to you? MR MAY I think during that time for any political activist I mean we believe it, in fact it was sort of necessary for you to go through that kind of a pain and situation before you could be I mean regard yourself as an activist. DR BORAINE Ja do you have any lasting feelings or mental worries or strains flowing from that very long period of solitary detention? MR MAY No nothing, I am okay. DR BORAINE So you strong? MR MAY Yes I am. DR BORAINE And what are you doing now? MR MAY DR BORAINE All right, thank very much. Okay. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, I have some remarks that I will make but I probably ought to wait until your - your friend testifies. MS BURTON Shall I go on then? CHAIRPERSON Yes please yes. MS BURTON Okay then we welcome Mr Lamani. Thank you for coming to contribute your evidence this morning. Could you start of just by telling us a little bit about yourself on how you come to know Mr May before we go to the question of the receipt? MR LAMANI MS BURTON MR LAMANI Okay thanks, I believe the year 1982 and I was doing matric at that stage. In the township there in New Brighton, there in Port Elizabeth there is a house most COSAS activists used to stay. The house situated at Masangwana Street, and many people in the township knew that if you want to get in touch or contact COSAS members you would go to that particular house, they always hang around there. That also implies that even the Security police knew about the house. The Security police had the tendency or had a practice where at some point in time they will take rounds and visit people in the township particularly people who were banned or house arrested or activists. They will just pop in your house just check where - whether are you still around, stay 10/20 minutes, then they go, they visit all of us. So in this night they arrived at the house and there were few other comrades with us in the house but Zenzile was not there, I think Themba Manqashe was there and some other comrades. Whilst other people asking questions to various individuals. So they stayed there for a period of about 20 - 30 minutes. You know just talking nonsense. And after some time they said okay they are leaving now, as they were leaving so Niewoudt bent down to pick up the packet of cigarettes and the small pieces of papers. I was standing across him on the other side. So as he was picking up this packet of cigarettes and this small bits of papers he left one piece of paper on the floor. He took all the others and the packet of cigarette and he put them back in his shirt pocket and then they were preparing to leave. The house was divided on this issue, there were those of our activist of our comrades who believed that Gideon Niewoudt deliberately left this note to create a confusion and the impression that Zenzile May is a paid police informer. And there were those of our members of the executive who believed that, it was so fortunate for us to bump into this kind of information. MS BURTON Thank you Mr Lamani, were there no other possible mechanisms that could have been used to try to established the truth or otherwise of this suspension that he was being paid as an informer? MR LAMANI You see it was very difficult especially us as students, at least if we were a trade union where trade unions maybe they do have money we could explore other means but as students it was very difficult because the state at that time was very powerful especially the police. They were very powerful they had all the resources. MS BURTON Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Thank you - yes. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER MR LAMANI UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER MR LAMANI Yes. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Thank you. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER I just wanted to complete the inquiry about Mthimkulu, it is so that Mthimkulu has since disappeared to your knowledge. MR LAMANI Ja. UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Do you know that, is it so? MR LAMANI Yes, I do UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER That his whereabouts are not known he disappeared from around Cape Town here. MR LAMANI UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Well I - I just wanted to thank both of you the remarks that I wanted to make in East London we were listening to some quite extra ordinary testimony, a kind of things that have been repeated here when one old person spoke. It is remarkable that you can be so old that you can smile and laugh and have such a remarkable lack of bitterness and speak of your experiences in detention and solitary confinement in a matter of that way. And we just want to be able to salute you and salute all the young people of this country and say that we - we are a remarkable country with some quite extra ordinary people of all races. And we - I certainly believe myself that our country is going to succeed wonderfully because one of the greatest gift that God has given us is the quality of human beings we have in this land and thank you very much.