hrvtrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATIOIN COMMISSION 1996-04-22 HEIDERVELD 1 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=55173&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/hrvtrans/heide/ct00504.htm CASE NO: CT/00504 VICTIM: LOOKSMART KHULILE NGUDLE VIOLATION: DEATH IN DETENTION TESTIMONY FROM: BEAUTY NGUDLE [wife] SIYANDA NGUDLE [son] SENATOR TINTO DR BORAINE Ms Ngudle - Mr Ngudle, mother and son welcome to the Commission hearing. We are very-very delighted to see you. Would you like to use the earphones or am I coming through can you hear me all right I you could just tell me can you hear me all right? Can we just check that to make absolute - ja that sounds much better. Do you want me to try it again, is that okay, right. As I mentioned to the first witness one of the requirements is the taking of the oath and I would like to ask you if you are prepared to do that? Would you please stand. BEAUTY NOMBULELO NGUDLE Duly sworn states DR BORAINE In a moment I am going to ask Mary Burton to assist you in telling your story. It goes back a very long time in fact in 1963 legislation was passed in Parliament which enabled the police to detain people or a maximum of 90 days without trial. MS BURTON Hello Ms Ngudle how are you keeping? MS NGUDLE Hello, fine thank you. MS BURTON We should explain that you are here together with your son and both of you are going to speak to us this morning, is that right? MS NGUDLE They said she must go to the second prison, when she got there, she was also asked what is her purpose of her visit, she said I am here to bury my son, I was told to come here. She was also sent to a third prison, when she got there, she was also asked - this was a very tall building. There were other woman from Pretoria, she was also asked - what is the purpose of your visit, she said I am here to bury my son, I am told to come here. Then she was told to wait a little while. They said who is this - name of your son, he said he is Looksmart, he was told to wait. They are going to come and they are going to take her to an upper floor. While she was still waiting, she said she is looking for her clothes - for his clothes. Nobody answered him - her with the question of clothes. While she was still waiting, she was asked by the other woman what she was doing here, she told them the same story that she was still here to bury her son. What - they said what happened was I am the one who is being wanted now. Now he sent me money so that I can come here to Cape Town, so I came to Cape Town. When I got here in Cape Town, I went to Guguletu, in [indistinct] - when I got there to my uncle, the police came, they took me to the police station. The police asked me what did Zithobile said to you. So we all left to Pretoria, the three of us, including the wife of the special branch police. When we got there they said Beauty we are going to put you into prison you are going to sleep in this prison because we have no place to - for you to sleep in. So the police in Pretoria took me so I asked where am I going to sleep, then they said you are going to sleep in this linen room for the police because we have no place for you. And my child was crying, so I asked what are we going to do with my baby, because she needs to be bathed, they gave me water with a bucket so that I can wash the baby, so I did. They discussed and we - there was just harassment and fighting and squabbling, police were just going up and down, not telling me anything other than that, my husband killed himself. Afterwards we left, I just saw people leaving, so I also left, I was told that I should also leave hurriedly, the police just said I must be - escape quickly to the station, running away from the police because when they - the police, if the police see us they will - they will shoot us. So we took a different secret routes, we went to my uncle. MS NGUDLE Yes the - the detectives use to come. MS BURTON Did you believe that your husband had hanged himself? MS NGUDLE Are there other things that you would like to end of Tape 2, side A. MS NGUDLE MS BURTON How many children do you have at school. MS NGUDLE I have six kids right now. MS BURTON Thank you very much and thank you for coming to Cape Town for these hearings. Would you like to stay there while your son now talks to us? MS NGUDLE Yes I would like him to say something. MS BURTON Welcome Mr Ngudle, Dr Boraine will ask you to make the oath. DR BORAINE Mr Ngudle welcome, would you like to stand please. SIYANDA HOWARD NGUDLE Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Thank you very much indeed you may be seated. MS BURTON MR NGUDLE Then we heard okay my father has passed away. When we heard that he has passed away, we expected that okay there will be a funeral as usual when a person has passed away. But in this case what surprised us was the - the coming in of white men, especially at night - they had absolutely no respect. And we all had to run away and run away - and run from them. As my mother has said, that during the escapes my grandmother got injured. I remember that my mother when she left for Pretoria, to the Court proceedings, that time we were at home living with my grandmother. We were waiting - waiting that my mother would come back then we would hear what was going on in Pretoria. We kept on hearing from the people that my father was killed by the boers even though we were small, we did not really know what exactly what was going on. As we grew up, we kept on hearing how people are being treated even at home as we had grew up my mother kept on telling us that inn - during the inquest, they were told that my father had - had hanged himself, even in the inquest nobody was - nobody was found responsible for it. The lawyers were looking for witnesses but now the witness were prevented from coming up. One of the witnesses would be mentioned, and it was Tlale who was with my father in the cell that time. It looks as if when my mother was coming - my father was coming back, he was given food by Mr Tlale but he refused the food and his last words was this electrical shock has really injured me. Now we are very sure that he use to love us. At the same time we knew that he loved the struggle, he was living for the struggle of the people. That is why we believe that he gave up everything that he loved, such like - such as his family, he gave up his family and his own life. We do not believe that he killed himself because of his love that we all know and to the whole nation. MS BURTON Thank you Mr Ngudle - do you know whether - you mentioned Mr Tlale whether he is still available, would he be able to give evidence about what he saw? MR NGUDLE I have no knowledge about that, Ms [indistinct] Bunting as I usually hear about her, she tried to look for him, he tried to meet with some comrades in Gauteng. But as far as I know she never - she never found him. But in December as a person who was - always looking for the truth, when I was in Parliament, I met the Secretary General of the Senate, Mr Govan Mbeki he told me how my father died. During the time they were in Prison in Pretoria. He told me that my father was tortured before he died, he told him in person that the boers were torturing him. So Mr Mbeki says that day when my father told him this, and the following day he was told that my father had passed away. Now that gives us evidence that my father was killed. MS BURTON [Inaudible] will certainly pursue every evidence that we can find to get to the truth of this story. Is there something else you would like to say? MR NGUDLE And in 1991 I discovered an advertisement from New Nation where they will - where Khanya College was inviting applications from students who want to enrol there and I was also lucky to be one of the students to be accepted at Khanya College. That is now how I started to study because there it was - education there was free. When - after I passed there I went to the University of Cape Town, I finished my degree last year. Because now we believe that if my father was still alive, we would of been brought up just like all the other kids and got all the other privileges just like every other child who was loved by his father. MS BURTON We have certainly have been taking note of all of those things. I understand that one of the witnesses who told you of your father during the time that he was in prison was a comrade of his Mr Christmas Tinto, now Senator Tinto. And I believe that Senator Tinto is also willing to corroborate the evidence is that correct? MR NGUDLE Yes that is true. Now I remember that Senator Christmas Tinto in one of the occasions when we remembered our father, he mentioned the fact that if the death of my father the way he knows it. And he saw him when he was arrested and he was - he also saw him when he was put into Caledon Square, and I think that he also can help in that regard. MS BURTON Thank you very much Mr Ngudle, thank you for all your testimony to us this morning. We will now therefore ask Senator Christmas Tinto to come to the microphone and to be sworn in. CHAIRPERSON There may be questions. MS BURTON Are there - do you want to handle the questions - sorry. CHAIRPERSON Thank you - any questions? ADV NTSEBEZA MR NGUDLE [Answer inaudible] ADV NTSEBEZA MR NGUDLE [Answer inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Any questions on this [indistinct] - no - thank you - yes. DR BORAINE If I could just ask you one short question, you mentioned that your father met Govan Mbeki in prison at Pretoria Central is that right? MR NGUDLE [Answer inaudible] DR BORAINE Now you mentioned that your father told Mr Mbeki that he was being tortured, is that right? MR NGUDLE DR BORAINE How did he communicate that - how did he tell Mr Mbeki? MR NGUDLE He said my father whispered to his ear as the Rivonia Trialist were - were put together with the other prisoners during the exercises. He told him that he was going to give him a note, just a little paper so as he did - he did drop the little paper when he was just passing next to him. Now as a - Mr Mbeki just pretended as if he was tying his shoelace, and then he picked up the paper and he read it in his own time. Now in the paper it was written that he was being tortured, that is now my father [intervention] DR BORAINE Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Thank you - we are really surprised that - to see that - that you drop out of school for such a long time and then you come back. This is absolutely amazing we congratulate you, thank you. DR BORAINE Senator Tinto welcome very much to the witness stand. Senator Tinto I understand that you are willing to give witness today. MR TINTO Ja Mr Boraine. DR BORAINE Thank you, I have to ask you to take the oath please. CHRISTMAS TINTO: Duly sworn states DR BORAINE Thank you very much, please be seated, Mary. MS BURTON Good morning Senator Tinto and welcome. MR TINTO [Answer inaudible] MS BURTON I believe that you have heard the testimony that has been given by Ms Ngudle and Mr Ngudle, the wife and son of Looksmart Solwandle Ngudle. And that you have some further information that you can give us on his death. MR TINTO [Answer inaudible] MS BURTON Please will you tell us what you have to say. MR TINTO During the time of our arrest, under the Act, under the [indistinct] Act, we collected ourselves knowing that we are going to be arrested. I met Looksmart Ngudle - Solwandle, he told me that he was sure that when he was - he was [indistinct] - when he was arrested he was going to be killed. On the third day I tried to be on guard just to listen what is actually going on, on the stairs. Now I saw - I saw him with the police, but now they had covered him, handcuffed him behind his back. Now there were three more boers with Van Wyk and Greeff. That was actually, that was the very last time we all saw Looksmart, Solwandle with our naked eye. That is how I saw what happened. MS BURTON MR TINTO CHAIRPERSON Any questions - yes. ADV NTSEBEZA Mr Tinto I would really like to ask that - did you know Looksmart in the struggle? MR TINTO I knew him a lot. ADV NTSEBEZA MR TINTO ADV NTSEBEZA Did you know him during the time when he was working for The New Age Yes I know him. MR TINTO [No audible answer] ADV NTSEBEZA MR TINTO ADV NTSEBEZA Did you know that he was the one leading the Umkhonto we Sizwe, he was the one who was recruiting - were you recruiting together. MR TINTO No our own recruiters. ADV NTSEBEZA Did you have direct communication? MR TINTO Oh! yes. ADV NTSEBEZA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Oh! Sorry Denzil. ADV POTGIETER Thank you Chairperson, Senator just to confirm the detention which you and Mr Ngudle was subjected to was the 90 day detention in 1963? MR NGUDLE ADV POTGIETER But the incident that you testified about, you were detained at that stage under the 90 day Detention Law. MR NGUDLE Ja. ADV POTGIETER Now was that solitary confinement, solitary detention - alone in a cell? MR NGUDLE ADV POTGIETER MR NGUDLE [indistinct] 90 days we use to see it as a place where you go - you would be detained separately in your separate cell when you are under interrogation. ADV POTGIETER Now that detention and the police that were involved was that the Security Police at that stage or which police was it? MR NGUDLE Yes Security Police. ADV POTGIETER Were the two police persons that you identified, Van Wyk and Greeff, were they from the Security Police? MR NGUDLE They were. ADV POTGIETER And the other three police that you saw as well that you referred to in your evidence, was that also Security Police persons? MR NGUDLE ADV POTGIETER And then just finally Senator did Mr Ngudle ever told you why he feared that he would be killed if he was detained? MR NGUDLE No he never tell me but he said that he knows that he is going to be killed. ADV POTGIETER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON